Author Topic: Civilian Killed by Police During Training Exercise  (Read 5529 times)

Offline FreeLancer

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Offline jerseyboy

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Re: Civilian Killed by Police During Training Exercise
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2016, 10:41:19 PM »
Failure to clear live rounds from weapon used in simulated scenario.

http://kfor.com/2016/08/09/woman-accidentally-killed-during-shoot-dont-shoot-training-exercise-at-police-department/

This goes to show you that you should never point a gun at anything you don't wish to destroy.

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Offline Chemsoldier

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Re: Civilian Killed by Police During Training Exercise
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2016, 07:16:42 AM »
Quality force on force scenarios involve the use of disabled weapons (replacement barrels or facsimile weapons) AND use other measures such as the forbidding of any weapons in the exercise area (including among instructors).  Many even use magnetometers on any personnel entering the exercise area.

What horrific negligence.
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Offline David in MN

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Re: Civilian Killed by Police During Training Exercise
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2016, 07:32:36 AM »
Haven't clicked the link yet but am wondering Florida or Arizona...

Ah yes, Florida. A training event with live people and live rounds? In a world full of blue guns and bright yellow dummy barrels this is inexcusable. How is it that a room full of police and civilians interested in police tactics not one person demanded all guns be made visibly safe? No shooting competition experience at all? Unbelievable.

And at what point do you run for the door because you realize these idiots are pointing guns at each other? Real quick IMHO.
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Offline archer

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Re: Civilian Killed by Police During Training Exercise
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2016, 11:06:00 AM »
sad, i feel for this woman's family.
the 'cop' that shot her should be fired and banned from any job that involves firearms.


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Offline Smurf Hunter

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Re: Civilian Killed by Police During Training Exercise
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2016, 11:25:05 AM »
I don't care what your credentials or experience - I'm not letting you point a muzzle at me.
Use a blue gun, or your index finger. 

Maybe there was a protocol in place to check for live rounds, and this was a 1 in 1,000,000 occurrence...
With any adult decision, ask yourself what happens if you are wrong?

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Re: Civilian Killed by Police During Training Exercise
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2016, 11:32:59 AM »
The Airsoft classes I've taken have actually had a stage where everyone was frisked, TWICE, before holstering up and putting on Airsoft guns, which were clearly identifiable, but felt realistic. You don't take chances with this stuff. There is no place for live guns in training with live targets.

Offline xxdabroxx

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Re: Civilian Killed by Police During Training Exercise
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2016, 11:33:39 AM »
What I don't get is how she was shot multiple times?  Were they using simunitions and this guy pulled a live mag out of his belt or what?  Don't you think you'd notice after the first shot something was up? 
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Offline FreeLancer

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Re: Civilian Killed by Police During Training Exercise
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2016, 12:03:52 PM »
sad, i feel for this woman's family.
the 'cop' that shot her should be fired and banned from any job that involves firearms.

He needs to go to prison for manslaughter, like any of us would if we had displayed this level of negligence. As a cop he should be held to an even higher standard.
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Offline Smurf Hunter

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Re: Civilian Killed by Police During Training Exercise
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2016, 12:35:37 PM »
He needs to go to prison for manslaughter, like any of us would if we had displayed this level of negligence. As a cop he should be held to an even higher standard.

Right.  If you or I did this, mainstream press would call for our heads. 

Reminds me of this:


Offline archer

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Re: Civilian Killed by Police During Training Exercise
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2016, 04:50:09 PM »
He needs to go to prison for manslaughter, like any of us would if we had displayed this level of negligence. As a cop he should be held to an even higher standard.

i agree.....


From a friend: Benjamin Franklin once said that beer is proof that God loves us.
I'm of the opinion that Redheads are proof that, contrary to popular belief, Satan also loves us.
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Offline r_w

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Re: Civilian Killed by Police During Training Exercise
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2016, 06:20:19 PM »
What I don't get is how she was shot multiple times?  Were they using simunitions and this guy pulled a live mag out of his belt or what?  Don't you think you'd notice after the first shot something was up?

Shoot until the threat is no longer a threat.  Anyone trained to shoot until they go down will get at least a double tap before the target physically responds to the shot. 

Unfortunately, the only reason they would prosecute manslaughter would be to try to protect the city from a larger lawsuit.

Offline David in MN

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Re: Civilian Killed by Police During Training Exercise
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2016, 08:22:24 PM »
Unfortunately, the only reason they would prosecute manslaughter would be to try to protect the city from a larger lawsuit.

No, it's because this is the very definition of manslaughter.
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Offline FreeLancer

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Re: Civilian Killed by Police During Training Exercise
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2016, 08:37:17 PM »
According to the police chief, the department had been using this revolver for 2 years, exclusively with simulated ammunition, and was under the impression that there wasn't any live ammunition available for the officers to load it with. 

That's weird. 

Assuming it was a .38, how similar do these rounds look to the real deal?  How does someone screw up that horribly loading a revolver?
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Offline iam4liberty

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Re: Civilian Killed by Police During Training Exercise
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2016, 09:07:50 PM »
According to the police chief, the department had been using this revolver for 2 years, exclusively with simulated ammunition, and was under the impression that there wasn't any live ammunition available for the officers to load it with. 

That's weird. 

Assuming it was a .38, how similar do these rounds look to the real deal?  How does someone screw up that horribly loading a revolver?

Strange.  As chemsoldier pointed out, ussually simunition conversions preclude the ability of the firearm to fire live rounds.  The biggest risk is a mix up between a simunition conversion pistol and a non-converted pistol with live rounds.  But that doesnt seem to be the case here.

I believe revolvers are converted by simply adding sleeves in the chambers.  So maybe revolvers are able to still fire simunitions without conversion?  In which case if it wasnt converted live rounds could accidentally get mixed in.

This is what simunition looks like:







Offline FreeLancer

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Re: Civilian Killed by Police During Training Exercise
« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2016, 10:09:29 PM »
Yeah, those look like they'd stand out from the real deal like a sore thumb.  Is there any indication that they're sim rounds when looked at from the primer end?  Like if he flipped out an already loaded cylinder, would live cartridges look the same as the sims? 
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Offline iam4liberty

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Re: Civilian Killed by Police During Training Exercise
« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2016, 11:05:03 PM »
Yeah, those look like they'd stand out from the real deal like a sore thumb.  Is there any indication that they're sim rounds when looked at from the primer end?  Like if he flipped out an already loaded cylinder, would live cartridges look the same as the sims?

Simunitions and live rounds would look pretty similar looked at that way:



Maybe what happened is someone else loaded the revolver with live rounds and he just assumed they were simunitions because the revolver was supposed to be dedicated to that purpose?


Offline FreeLancer

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Re: Civilian Killed by Police During Training Exercise
« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2016, 11:20:59 PM »
That sounds about right.  Out of a whole bunch of inexcusable excuses, that is probably the most forgivable.

I can not even imagine the absolute horror......after realizing I'd pulled that trigger.
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Offline Chemsoldier

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Re: Civilian Killed by Police During Training Exercise
« Reply #18 on: August 11, 2016, 04:52:02 AM »
Also bear in mind that as of 7 years ago, Simunitions was the name of a company. That company not only produced marking rounds, but also frangible ammunition and reduced power, but still lethal training ammo.

Attention to detail.

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Offline iam4liberty

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Re: Civilian Killed by Police During Training Exercise
« Reply #19 on: August 11, 2016, 06:38:33 AM »
A reporter was actually covering the class at the time. She provides the general details and even took pictures throughout the incident,  The below is the officer playing the role of the bad guy.

http://www.news-press.com/story/news/2016/08/10/charlotte-sun-photographer-witnessed-accidental-shooting/88538322/



Also, on the radio they are saying officer involved was on an internal review for excessive force with a K9 unit and so shouldnt have had live ammo on duty.  So it is even more puzzling how this could have occured.

Offline Chemsoldier

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Re: Civilian Killed by Police During Training Exercise
« Reply #20 on: August 11, 2016, 06:50:50 AM »
Well, while he obviously failed in accomplishing it, doing a simulation without live ammo should have fit the bill.  To be honest, without more detail, I am not sure how much stock I would put in the excessive force allegation, yet.  They are not uncommon.

This feels like jackassery on so many levels.  The revolver...why?  Semi-auto sims work requires a replacement slide assembly which would have made it impossible to shoot live ammo. The average police arms room has numerous extra duty weapons.  In 20/20 hindsight, the desire to have a slice of criminal life gun (revolver) vs. the same weapon the department carries seems not worth the risk, though as I said that is in hindsight. 
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Offline iam4liberty

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Re: Civilian Killed by Police During Training Exercise
« Reply #21 on: August 11, 2016, 06:51:31 AM »
Oh, i should mention that the victim had a simunition gun as she was shooting the officer playing the role of the bad guy,  Here is a picture of her being explained the operation of this pistol.



But apparently the revolver used was just a standard one with which they were using blanks.  So that explains how a live round could have been fired.  On the radio a representative of a police union said this was a violation of the scenario rules laid out.  A starter pistol was supposed to be used to avoid the chances of a live round being able to be fired.

Offline Chemsoldier

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Re: Civilian Killed by Police During Training Exercise
« Reply #22 on: August 11, 2016, 06:54:10 AM »
The revolver looked small.  I wonder if it was someone's off duty gun?  That could explain how live revolver ammo was at a police station that uses Glock duty weapons.
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Offline Smurf Hunter

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Re: Civilian Killed by Police During Training Exercise
« Reply #23 on: August 11, 2016, 08:42:06 AM »
what a horrible cluster...