Author Topic: Wood is NOT enviromentally frendly fuel...one of the worst for the environment  (Read 1193 times)

Offline Carl

  • Mr HamTastic!
  • Survival Veteran
  • ********
  • Posts: 9940
  • Karma: 562
  • COW?...No ,I haven't seen your cow.
  Appears to be the sad truth. You want to save the planet and yet choose one of the worst fuels ,with the near highest release of CARBON.
Even COAL is better for the environment...If carbon actually means anything to mother earth and GLOBAL WARMING....

https://www.volker-quaschning.de/datserv/CO2-spez/index_e.php
I refuse to punch back as I didn't come here to fight.

Stop complaining about life and start Celebrating it .

I've reached the age where there is little left to learn the hard way.

If you had only one year,one month,or one day...Would you live your life differently?

Offline fred.greek

  • Survivalist Mentor
  • *****
  • Posts: 755
  • Karma: 41
My opinion.  “BS”.

Wood represents elements relatively recently removed from the environment, when burned returned to the environment.

Coal aspects were removed from the environment LONG ago, burning today returns to the environment aspects not present for a long time.
Retired, but still working in the garden...

Online surfivor

  • Survival Veteran
  • ********
  • Posts: 5477
  • Karma: 65
of course wood is not what they want you to burn, if you can cut firewood on your own land then they won't make enough money on you and can't jack up the rates.

 They would like to eventually tax all wood burning or make you file permits to cut trees.

Offline Cedar

  • ...just aDD water...
  • TSP Supreme Galactic Ant
  • *************
  • Posts: 27911
  • Karma: 1084
  • Dont wait for the storm to pass, dance in the rain
As a blacksmith, I have burned wood and coal. Wood has to be cleaner. Coal has to burn off the sulfur and such to coke up. I can breathe wood smoke, and not coal smoke.

My wood is from slash debris, it is salvage. It would otherwise go to waste. It only costs chainsaw fuel. I usually move it with a wheelbarrow, but last week I used a pickup to move it a couple hundred feet due to slash, VS wheelbarrow tire. I was pretty afraid of dumping it multiple times on the way there. My wood gets hauled less than 500 yards from where it fell to my pile.

My coal comes from Alberta. It has to be mined by large machines, hauled by railroad, crushed by large machines, packaged up mechanically, shipped 2,000 miles by truck, I drive to junction City to get a bag of it, drive home, and them burn it in a forge, with it out gasing many chemicals.

Woodsmoke has its own set of chemicals, but as far as heat goes, it is more efficient for me. And more cost effective. Our electricity in Oregon is powered by hydrodams, which is pretty clean, but it took a bit of a toll on the environment. We also have wind power, but it also has costs to build, ship and assemble.

You have to take into account, not just the emmissions off the wood or coal in burning, but also the processes to get it from point A to point B

Cedar
"Do not breathe simply to exist."

"Make now always the most precious time. Now will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard

"A person who works with his hands is a laborer, A person who works with his hands and his head is a craftsman, A person who works with his hands, his head and his heart is an artist."

Offline NWPilgrim

  • Dedicated Contributor
  • ******
  • Posts: 1357
  • Karma: 90
  • New TSP Forum member
If wood was the primary heating source there would be a lot less obesity.  Fell the tree, limb the tree, buck the logs, load the rounds, unload the rounds, split the rounds, stack the splits, carry the splits. And repeat frequently! Oh yeah, gather the slash, burn the slash, roast weenies.

And no, "carbon" is not a climate problem. Carbon on the ground has zero effect.  Carbon in CO2 is a minuscule portion of the air and there is no correlation between CO2 levels and historical temps (true data, not fudged until it fits data). CO2 (along with water, nutrients and solar energy) is used by TREES and plants to produce...02!! Which is mighty handy for humans.

And as survivor points out, wood is a universal energy resource easily available to most humans so of course it must be demonized and regulated. 
There have always been times like this, and there will be again. Will we rise to the challenges or get run over?

Offline Cedar

  • ...just aDD water...
  • TSP Supreme Galactic Ant
  • *************
  • Posts: 27911
  • Karma: 1084
  • Dont wait for the storm to pass, dance in the rain
If wood was the primary heating source there would be a lot less obesity.

I doubt it. Only the woodcutters who get the orders, fill the orders, and deliver the wood stay skinnier. And many of them now have mechanical firewood machines. You seen them yet?

Cedar
"Do not breathe simply to exist."

"Make now always the most precious time. Now will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard

"A person who works with his hands is a laborer, A person who works with his hands and his head is a craftsman, A person who works with his hands, his head and his heart is an artist."

Offline Carl

  • Mr HamTastic!
  • Survival Veteran
  • ********
  • Posts: 9940
  • Karma: 562
  • COW?...No ,I haven't seen your cow.
  OK,OK  I baited you. While it is TRUE that wood produces more CO2 , The way I believe it is that CO2 really has so little effect on our environment and GLOBAL WARMING/CLIMATE CHANGE That there is little to worry about...except to cultivate more trees as good renewable resource. BUT facts and science can allow one to present most any World Ending Event to be man's fault. While man does effect the environment ,to a small measure...man has the power to make that a good effect.

  Just note that Co2 ,used to shame users of other forms of energy, really is less a problem when you take a wider view.

Ours is a big world,Let's try to take a wider view of problems to effect improvement,rather than conflict
I refuse to punch back as I didn't come here to fight.

Stop complaining about life and start Celebrating it .

I've reached the age where there is little left to learn the hard way.

If you had only one year,one month,or one day...Would you live your life differently?

Offline Chemsoldier

  • Pot Stirrer
  • Global Moderator
  • Survival Demonstrator
  • ******
  • Posts: 4898
  • Karma: 485
What about other forms of air pollution such as smog?  Lets set aside the CO2 thing.

Wood is great for most rural dwellers, if you have the space to grow your own wood I figure burning it isn't an issue for the air quality in general.  However, I think to historical accounts of cities that burn wood and coal for heat and cooking and it sounds like it would be a problem in terms of air pollution for cities and other more densely populated areas.
"You can always count on Americans to do the right thing, after they've tried everything else"
-Winston Churchill

"You think health care is expensive now? Wait until its free!"
-P.J. O'Rourke

"Is it dangerous to enter the Forum?"
-Seneca

Offline Carl

  • Mr HamTastic!
  • Survival Veteran
  • ********
  • Posts: 9940
  • Karma: 562
  • COW?...No ,I haven't seen your cow.
What about other forms of air pollution such as smog?  Lets set aside the CO2 thing.

Wood is great for most rural dwellers, if you have the space to grow your own wood I figure burning it isn't an issue for the air quality in general.  However, I think to historical accounts of cities that burn wood and coal for heat and cooking and it sounds like it would be a problem in terms of air pollution for cities and other more densely populated areas.

I actually believe that wood will release just as much CO2 while rotting as it does while burning and often represents less harmful chemicals than many 'synthetic' forms of energy harvesting. I mostly wanted to show that one can often find science to support most any agenda if looking for a specific answer ,rather than an encompassing research and then deciding what the outcome.

It is easy to find 'WOOD IS WONDERFUL" data ...if that is included in the search.
If you only look for BAD,what possible outcome could your research prove?

This post actually has little to do with wood.
I refuse to punch back as I didn't come here to fight.

Stop complaining about life and start Celebrating it .

I've reached the age where there is little left to learn the hard way.

If you had only one year,one month,or one day...Would you live your life differently?

Offline Cedar

  • ...just aDD water...
  • TSP Supreme Galactic Ant
  • *************
  • Posts: 27911
  • Karma: 1084
  • Dont wait for the storm to pass, dance in the rain
But you are looking for black and white answers, and it is rarely a Black and White answer.

Even in the small town of 2,000 where I used to live, I and my neighbors were in a bowl, so if they ran their woodstoves on an inversion day, the smoke settled into our little valley.

Back to chemsoldier's reference of historical times and London from coal looked like China's air looks like today.

Cedar
"Do not breathe simply to exist."

"Make now always the most precious time. Now will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard

"A person who works with his hands is a laborer, A person who works with his hands and his head is a craftsman, A person who works with his hands, his head and his heart is an artist."

Offline Chemsoldier

  • Pot Stirrer
  • Global Moderator
  • Survival Demonstrator
  • ******
  • Posts: 4898
  • Karma: 485
I actually believe that wood will release just as much CO2 while rotting as it does while burning and often represents less harmful chemicals than many 'synthetic' forms of energy harvesting. I mostly wanted to show that one can often find science to support most any agenda if looking for a specific answer ,rather than an encompassing research and then deciding what the outcome.

It is easy to find 'WOOD IS WONDERFUL" data ...if that is included in the search.
If you only look for BAD,what possible outcome could your research prove?

This post actually has little to do with wood.

I am getting at the other effects of burning wood on an individual basis.  As Cedar mentioned, London with coal, LA Smog which I understand has actually improved with emissions standards.    My point is that there are multiple ways to look at it.  There is benefit to emissions control even if climate change is hooey.  There is benefit to energy independence even if the solar panels never pay for themselves. 
"You can always count on Americans to do the right thing, after they've tried everything else"
-Winston Churchill

"You think health care is expensive now? Wait until its free!"
-P.J. O'Rourke

"Is it dangerous to enter the Forum?"
-Seneca

Offline iam4liberty

  • Dedicated Contributor
  • ******
  • Posts: 1209
  • Karma: 94
  • New TSP Forum member
LA Smog which I understand has actually improved with emissions standards.

Dramatically better.  It was horrid when i started to travel to LA twenty-five years ago. But this was very little from heating or electric production.  It was auto emmissions.  Which is why electric vehicles are so positively viewed there.  Even if they dont reduce emmisions, they displace them from the city improving the air qualty where most people live.  As they say, "the solution to pollution is dillution".

Offline Carl

  • Mr HamTastic!
  • Survival Veteran
  • ********
  • Posts: 9940
  • Karma: 562
  • COW?...No ,I haven't seen your cow.
I am getting at the other effects of burning wood on an individual basis.  As Cedar mentioned, London with coal, LA Smog which I understand has actually improved with emissions standards.    My point is that there are multiple ways to look at it.  There is benefit to emissions control even if climate change is hooey.  There is benefit to energy independence even if the solar panels never pay for themselves.

I do agree,responsible use of what the deities and earth provide.
I refuse to punch back as I didn't come here to fight.

Stop complaining about life and start Celebrating it .

I've reached the age where there is little left to learn the hard way.

If you had only one year,one month,or one day...Would you live your life differently?

Offline Carl

  • Mr HamTastic!
  • Survival Veteran
  • ********
  • Posts: 9940
  • Karma: 562
  • COW?...No ,I haven't seen your cow.
Dramatically better.  It was horrid when i started to travel to LA twenty-five years ago. But this was very little from heating or electric production.  It was auto emmissions.  Which is why electric vehicles are so positively viewed there.  Even if they dont reduce emmisions, they displace them from the city improving the air qualty where most people live.  As they say, "the solution to pollution is dillution".

Is not LA smog more confined by mountains and weather than concentrated by use?
I refuse to punch back as I didn't come here to fight.

Stop complaining about life and start Celebrating it .

I've reached the age where there is little left to learn the hard way.

If you had only one year,one month,or one day...Would you live your life differently?

Offline Chemsoldier

  • Pot Stirrer
  • Global Moderator
  • Survival Demonstrator
  • ******
  • Posts: 4898
  • Karma: 485
Is not LA smog more confined by mountains and weather than concentrated by use?
I think his point is the smog is much better in LA than it used to and the mountains haven't gone anywhere.
"You can always count on Americans to do the right thing, after they've tried everything else"
-Winston Churchill

"You think health care is expensive now? Wait until its free!"
-P.J. O'Rourke

"Is it dangerous to enter the Forum?"
-Seneca

Offline Carl

  • Mr HamTastic!
  • Survival Veteran
  • ********
  • Posts: 9940
  • Karma: 562
  • COW?...No ,I haven't seen your cow.
I think his point is the smog is much better in LA than it used to and the mountains haven't gone anywhere.

OK,But I think it more evident due to terrane trapping it in the area. Good it is less still.
I refuse to punch back as I didn't come here to fight.

Stop complaining about life and start Celebrating it .

I've reached the age where there is little left to learn the hard way.

If you had only one year,one month,or one day...Would you live your life differently?

Offline iam4liberty

  • Dedicated Contributor
  • ******
  • Posts: 1209
  • Karma: 94
  • New TSP Forum member
Catalytic converters made all the difference.


Offline mountainmoma

  • Survival Demonstrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 3502
  • Karma: 135
  • suburban homesteader
LA has horrid geography for trapping smog, for sure.

My ex=husband grew up in LA, and he remembers not being able to go out to play, and having to lie down, from the smog being so bad, troubled his breathing.

Up here, I remember that the Silicon Valley "haze" was bad enough 35 years ago when I moved there in the fall, that I didnt see the surrounding hills until the first rains. Was NOT as bad as his childhood LA, in that it didnt keep people from being active, but it is better now than it was.

But, both of those examples are about car and industrial outputs, not home heating.

On the other side, since this is about wood and not car exhaust, CARB ( California Air Resource Board) is completely over the top . They will not be satisfied until all and any outputs to the air go to zero. Here locally, they are getting very close to wanting to outlaw wood stove, and certainly they villify them. But, the area in question is not that bad in the winter. I know lots of families and kids and have never heard of one asmatic kid having trouble there in the winter, and it is low income, and surrounded by forest with alot of trees downed every winter, on the roads, in peoples yards, etc.... It simply makes sense that an area with a surplus of free, downed trees is going to heat with wood. Now, if they were to make any sense, they should go back to the wood stove replacement program ( which they replaced with a furnace credit program that gets few takers ) and expand it, and make it more attractive for the lowest income households. Also, education, of how to burn and seasoned wood. Once my stove is warmed up, and I push the lever to route the smoke thru the Catalytic converter on mine, you can see the difference from the stove pipe output !

Also, this doesnt make sense, as the law in California is you CANNOT outlaw a "warming fire", and we have forest fires started routinely in my county all summer, from itinerant homeless starting open fires in their camps. SO, tell me why it is ok to have an open fire in the woods in the summer, and not ok for a person who has managed to scrape enough money together to pay rent to have an indoor warming fire in the winter in a nice, safe wood stove ? CARB does not speak to this.

And, as a chemically sensitive person with asthma, a gas heating appliance is just as bad or worse. Just because you do not see the "smoke" does not mean there is no out put ! Let me tell you, there is pollution output from natural gas furnaces and heaters ( and stoves) that affect breathing in asmatics. Just going for the visible particulates makes everyone feel better, but the thing is, we as humans need to cook and get warm. Villifying the heat source for low income, while ignoring gas outputs from the middle and rich class is... well, it is common

 
Accomplished tea drinker and baby goat watcher

Offline Carl

  • Mr HamTastic!
  • Survival Veteran
  • ********
  • Posts: 9940
  • Karma: 562
  • COW?...No ,I haven't seen your cow.
MMama and others ,see my post WOOD IS GOOD...

http://thesurvivalpodcast.com/forum/index.php?topic=60575.0
I refuse to punch back as I didn't come here to fight.

Stop complaining about life and start Celebrating it .

I've reached the age where there is little left to learn the hard way.

If you had only one year,one month,or one day...Would you live your life differently?

Online surfivor

  • Survival Veteran
  • ********
  • Posts: 5477
  • Karma: 65
  I don't think it really matters what makes sense or what the truth is. The environmentalists, UN, and bought and paid for scientists will just keep pushing whatever drivel they decide they need to or what the higher up controllers decide.


Offline NWPilgrim

  • Dedicated Contributor
  • ******
  • Posts: 1357
  • Karma: 90
  • New TSP Forum member
I doubt it. Only the woodcutters who get the orders, fill the orders, and deliver the wood stay skinnier. And many of them now have mechanical firewood machines. You seen them yet?

Cedar

Yeah, that was a bit tongue in cheek. :)  For the wood harvester on an individual basis it is a lot of work.  The old Indian saying that the white man's fire heats him three times: cut the wood, haul the wood, burn the wood.  On a commercial level no money can be made doing it manually so you need machinery for efficiency and then lose the "functional exercise" value.

What the climate/air politics lack is any reasoned discussion.  It is "settled" "science" (both in quotes as being bogus).  We should be able to find a balance to enjoy wood fires, have clean air, use nuclear, natural gas, solar, hydro in ways and places that are appropriate for each topography, temp layers, wind, and population density.  It makes sense to me that if you choose to live in high density housing zone that you may have few opportunities to burn wood without adversely affecting neighbors. But, the regulations have to be science based not politically based and that is the rub: if govt controls the regulations it will become political not science in short order.  On the other hand, I never understood why people live in places like LA, drove their smoky cars in a place even the Indians named "smokey valley" or some such, and then complain about the smog.  Smog would be self-correcting if people would move away from dense areas if they don't like it, or OMG take it upon themselves to drive and heat more efficiently without waiting for a govt agency to declare it mandatory.  There is a story that back in the early days of industry a panel was put together to solve the pollution problem.  Henry Ford was against massive tomes of regulations and simply suggested that each industrial plant should be required to have it's intake (water/air) downstream of its outflow.  I like that direction of thinking.
There have always been times like this, and there will be again. Will we rise to the challenges or get run over?

Offline Carl

  • Mr HamTastic!
  • Survival Veteran
  • ********
  • Posts: 9940
  • Karma: 562
  • COW?...No ,I haven't seen your cow.
Thanks guys and gals,great discussion. Did you notice I posted a thread that says WOOD IS GOOD for the environment also?
It was intended as an exercise to show that good or bad can be found on most and subject ,if your agenda is to prove either way.
The important thing is not to point blame but to think and find BETTER ways to do things.

  While I showed how bad wood was due to CARBON,what I neglected to add was that wood releases just as much CARBON when burning as it does when ROTTING and is a neutral fuel if carbon really has anything to do with us or the environment as that can be treated the same way ...Good or Bad depends more on you and I than the scientists who manipulate facts and numbers to prove what they want to prove...Try to keep an open mind and think for yourself...I also have been guilty of a closed mind.
I refuse to punch back as I didn't come here to fight.

Stop complaining about life and start Celebrating it .

I've reached the age where there is little left to learn the hard way.

If you had only one year,one month,or one day...Would you live your life differently?