Author Topic: Want to pump water very long distance from brook  (Read 24553 times)

Offline Going Galt

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Re: Want to pump water very long distance from brook
« Reply #30 on: November 22, 2009, 10:09:15 AM »
Depends, how is the soil?  See a lot of rocks on the surface or do you have a feeling they exist down a ways?  They only work in gravel or sand type areas - you aint pounding one into bedrock! 

The surface does have a lot of rocks, so I am highly suspect of much hope to just pound a well point into the ground and be done with it.  Maybe I'd have some luck if I just got a shovel and dug as far as I could, then go further with a post hole digger, then maybe drive the point into that.  It may be worth an experiment to see how far I can get before giving up.



Offline “Mark”

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Re: Want to pump water very long distance from brook
« Reply #31 on: November 22, 2009, 03:11:18 PM »
If you have a bit of land, you may want to look for a wet spot near (preferably above in elevation) where you want to plant and dig a spring.  Look for trees that have the roots spreading on the surface of the ground - clear indication of a high water table.  Look at the base, if it goes in straight, its dry, if it is flaired at the dirt line significantly, it is wet.. 

Wow. I never knew that. I'll be keeping my eye at the bottom of trees now!
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Offline nukeofhazard

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Re: Want to pump water very long distance from brook
« Reply #32 on: November 22, 2009, 09:11:39 PM »
I'm going to give this a shot, please bear with me.  Hopefully it will be of some use, or at least food for thought.

Let me start with a few basic assumptions:
- discharge elevation = 50' - 100' above suction source
- discharge point = 700' - 2700' pipe run from suction source

- piping diameter of 1.5" or 2"
- desired flow rate = ? (I'll go with 10 - 20 gpm for now)

- The suction source is a brook that is suitable for pumping.
ie. It is free of debris likely to damage the system. And, deep enough to fully submerge suction piping without the flow stirring up the bottom mud and without a vortex forming from the surface.

- The pump will be at or near ground level next to the brook, but above the level of the water.


Now for some analysis:

How much discharge head does our pump have to put out?
In order to move water, we have to overcome the forces working against us. 
These are:
- The force of gravity
- Friction of the water against the walls of the pipe. 

Elevation differences result in what is called "Elevation Head".  Elevation Head remains constant and is unaffected by flow rate and pipe size. Friction results in "Friction head" which is variable based on pipe size, flow rate, pipe type, and other more minor factors like water temperature (which we'll neglect). Keep in mind that sharp bends in the piping, fittings etc. will add to friction, so it helps to avoid them as much as possible.

Whenever you hear "head" when talking about pumps, think pressure.
1 foot of head is about 0.44 psi.

We'll use the formula:
Required head = Elevation Head + Friction Head
Elevation head = Change in elevation from the suction source to final destination.
Friction head = feet of head loss per 100' of pipe * feet of pipe/100'

Friction head is complicated to calculate, but thanks to my copy of "Pocket Ref" I have it available.

Feet of head loss per 100' of pipe:
1.5" PE pipe at 10 gpm = 1.1'
1.5" PE pipe at 20 gpm = 4.0'

2.0" PE pipe at 10 gpm = 0.3'
2.0" PE pipe at 20 gpm = 1.0'

so our values for required head are:

Best Case:
- 1.5" pipe:
-- 10 gpm: 50' Elevation Head + 700' run = 50'+ (1.1' * 700'/100') = 57.7' (25.4 psi)
-- 20 gpm: 50' Elevation Head + 700' run = 50'+ (4.0' * 700'/100') = 78.0' (34.3 psi)

- 2" pipe:
-- 10 gpm: 50' Elevation Head + 700' run = 50'+ (0.3' * 700'/100') = 52.1' (22.9 psi)
-- 20 gpm: 50' Elevation Head + 700' run = 50'+ (1.0' * 700'/100') = 57.0' (25.1 psi)


Worst Case:
- 1.5" pipe:
-- 10 gpm: 100' Elevation Head + 2700' run = 100'+ (1.1' * 2700'/100') = 129.7' (57.1 psi)
-- 20 gpm: 100' Elevation Head + 2700' run = 100'+ (4.0' * 2700'/100') = 208.0' (91.5 psi)

- 2" pipe:
-- 10 gpm: 100' Elevation Head + 2700' run = 100'+ (0.3' * 2700'/100') = 108.1' (47.6 psi)
-- 20 gpm: 100' Elevation Head + 2700' run = 100'+ (1.0' * 2700'/100') = 127.0' (55.9 psi)

You can see how dramatically the friction head drops off with larger pipe and/or lower flow rate.  It is important to select piping that is rated to the required discharge pressure, otherwise...well you can guess what happens there.   Based on these calculations I'd recommend 2" piping to keep the friction losses down especially for the longer run. 

Now that we know the pressure requirements, lets move on to the pump.  Looking at the Honda Power equipment website, they have a pretty good explanation of pump theory and terminology.
http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/products/pumps/content.aspx?asset=wp_theory
http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/products/pumps/content.aspx?asset=wp_pumpterms

For this application you'll probably want to go with a self-priming pump. This can avoid the situation where the pump is started and proceeds to try to pump air because the suction line isn't filled. Running a pump dry can cause damage, and so should be avoided. Note the assumption above about the location of the pump being above the surface of the water will result in this condition. Also note the suction line should be made of rigid material or else the pump could suck it flat.

Honda makes some high-pressure de-watering pumps that look like what you're after. They fit the requirements and are engine driven so they would both simplify the system and enable you to adjust the flow rate with the throttle.
http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/products/models.aspx?page=models&section=P2WP&category=hp

homeshow

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Re: Want to pump water very long distance from brook
« Reply #33 on: November 26, 2009, 08:59:59 AM »
i have allmost exactly the same problem.  house and garden at about 5 acres north and slightly uphill from a small stream and at least 1 spring.  so i'll need about 1500 feet of 3/4-1" tubing i can bury below the tennesee frost line.  a way to pump the water and a storage tank at the house level.  maybe elevated an aditional 5 feet.  then i can gravity feed the future stock tanks and irrigate.

i'm thinking burying a 1/2 blue barrel in the stream bed to collect clean water.  and add a 12V pump hooked to a transformer.  cver with a small spring house to keep it all from freezing.

Offline memtenn

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Re: Want to pump water very long distance from brook
« Reply #34 on: November 28, 2009, 10:23:46 AM »
Unfortunately, a ram pump won't work for me because I have neither flow (it trickles) nor drop.  All 1500 or so feet of brook that I own is pretty much at nearly the same level to itself... it probably goes down a few feet from one end to the other but you could never tell.  The flow does pick up near the end of it where two branches combine, but that is even further away (2700 feet) from where I want it.

I don't really want to do this, but the brook is not on the border and there is more land beyond it.  It might be possible to plant way back there, where the land would be at the same level as the brook.  I'm not sure how wet it is going to be though (apple trees don't like to swim in water), plus it'd be very far away and may require some clearing first.


I would strongly suggest doing a little more research on installing a ram pump. They're cheap, require no electricity, reliable, and as long as you have a steady flow of water (a trickle is perfect!) and an elevation drop, you can absolutely build one yourself.

Note that the pump is dependent on a "flow" of water. This doesn't refer to the speed of the water, only that it's not stagnant. The key is to trickle the water into a barrel or container to feed the pump. The pressure is not dependent on how fast your brook is flowing. Also, I encourage you to look more closely at the brook elevation change. What you perceive as only a little change could actually be substantial. If it's flowing in a direction, it's dropping. A good DIY ram pump design can pump water continuously 10 times the drop in elevation (20 feet per 2 ft drop, 30 feet per 3 ft drop, etc.).

You could probably build an excellent one yourself with PVC and 2 valves for $60. Like I said, I suggest looking a little closer at this type of option before you even begin worrying about a generator or solar option. It's too cheap not to!

 

Offline Going Galt

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Re: Want to pump water very long distance from brook
« Reply #35 on: November 28, 2009, 02:30:42 PM »
Sounds interesting about the ram pump, but there really isn't any drop of any significance.  I wish I had a picture of it to show.  The whole brook runs parallel to the bottom of the hill, and probably changes a few feet over the course of 1/4 mile.  It is met in a number of places by trickles coming down the side of my hill; those go down hill but I'm sure will be very intermittent.

Now, I did find another brook on the other side that does flow down hill.  It starts in my land, flows further down the hill then runs into a culvert under a logging road and into other property.  Although, I do not yet know how intermittent this one will be.  It is small enough that no one has bothered to name it.  (Hmmm.... maybe I should name it.  How about Galt's Gulch?)  And, it is 200 feet below where I hope to plant.  Although, that side of the land is otherwise dry and better for trying to plant anything on, so maybe I could actually consider planting further down the hill near this other brook.  BUT, only if I can be sure that it runs all summer.  It is running now, enough that I can't actually jump across it.  But, I'll have to see what next year brings.

This might actually work out better, IF the thing will actually flow all year.  This side of the hill is much easier to walk around (not much brush), is dry, and attracts less deer (so attracts less hunters). 




Offline “Mark”

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Re: Want to pump water very long distance from brook
« Reply #36 on: November 29, 2009, 02:02:12 PM »
It is running now, enough that I can't actually jump across it.

Then you have more than enough current for a ram pump, if it runs all year round.
The government is great at breaking your leg, handing you a crutch, and saying “You see, without me you couldn’t walk.” — Harry Browne

bshupe

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Re: Want to pump water very long distance from brook
« Reply #37 on: December 02, 2009, 12:22:39 AM »
Maybe build yourself a small water tower at the source of the water and let gavity push the water to where you need it? If anything the gravity push would greatly reduce the size pump you would need. You could also use your small generator to run a small (pancake) air compressor and pressurize the water tank to further assist with pushing the water to the desired location.

Offline Going Galt

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Re: Want to pump water very long distance from brook
« Reply #38 on: December 02, 2009, 04:36:32 PM »
It'd have to be a pretty big tower in order to be above the point where I need the water to end up.  Although, I have thought that a tower might be nice, but for a different purpose.... I'd like to have a 360 degree view for astronomy purposes.  As it is now, I'm not going to be able to make a single clearing that simultaneously looks in all directions (doing so would require clearing way too big an area).  But, I'd probably never do that.  (Too big a project, plus anything that strange would attract unneeded attention to myself.)




Offline Going Galt

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Re: Want to pump water very long distance from brook
« Reply #39 on: December 05, 2009, 05:08:20 PM »
The little second brook that I discovered isn't going to be sufficient for much of anything.  I explored it today, and while it is pretty now, it is clear that the trickle it now has (after very heavy rainfall) will completely dry up.  It is just as well because I didn't see any good places nearby it where I could plant stuff (too wet).

However, I think I could do some planting near the big brook.  I had another look today and the land near it has some areas that have potential.  Much of the land is patterned with logging drag zones, so those areas solve the problem of having to cut down lots of trees.  I mainly have to clear brush and find some ground that doesn't have too many rocks.  If I do that, then my original pumping problem is reduced to less than 10 foot vertical rise (although I may want the hose maybe 150-200 feet away.   I still don't see that a ram pump would be feasible.  The brook's banks are only a few inches high so I can't dam it up in order to try to create a drop.