Author Topic: Anyone else dealt with a frozen shoulder?  (Read 11721 times)

Offline artephius

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Anyone else dealt with a frozen shoulder?
« on: August 06, 2015, 06:25:13 AM »
Hi all,

I was curious if anyone else out there has been through the wonderful experience of having a frozen shoulder and trying to get back in shape afterwards...

I used to have a fairly physically demanding job (construction), nothing extreme, but it kept me in fairly good shape over the years until my shoulder gave out. I got to the point where I was so sore and miserable all the time I stopped doing anything physical completely except the bare minimum to get by at work and pretty much turned into a "Joe six-pack" for a couple years.

I got so weak from all this that I through out my back picking up an effing 50lb jack hammer which led to another month of so of laying around doing nothing losing even more strength.

Now I'm trying to figure out how to get back in shape and while my shoulder isn't frozen anymore (I found a great massage therapist that knew how to fix it 90% and the remaining 10% should theoretically be solved through re-strengthening) I still struggle desperately with getting back into the swing of working out regularly and it seems like everything I do tends to aggravate the shoulder -- which leads to less working out.

I'd love to get some insight from anyone who has been through this or other shoulder injuries and managed to turn it around. I think shoulders have got to be one of the worst things you can injure, I never realized how crucial shoulder health is to every aspect of life until I had a useless one...

Any tips or workout suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

Offline Carl

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Re: Anyone else dealt with a frozen shoulder?
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2015, 06:31:49 AM »
Swimming...or going through the motions with water resistance if no deep pools,ponds,or swamps are available.
A hot pad can also aide circulation and healing.When I was a truck driver ,nothing better than 20 minutes in a pool after work.
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Offline artephius

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Re: Anyone else dealt with a frozen shoulder?
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2015, 06:37:53 AM »
Yeah I LOVE swimming, but I can't stand to be soaked in chlorine like that. I really need to find a place that uses salts or something instead. Maybe I'll see if I can snag one of those cheap above ground pools from walmart this year when they go on sale before winter... I've been looking for an excuse to buy one of those for a couple years now

Offline r_w

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Re: Anyone else dealt with a frozen shoulder?
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2015, 06:39:04 AM »
DIET! Specifically, an anti inflammatory diet. And a few high quality supplements for rebuilding nerve, cartilage and muscle.

Once I got my inflammation down the arthritis like pain went away and I could move again and begin rebuilding.

For me that meant gluten free, grain free for a few months.  Still means no processed sugar.  Raw milk, not pasteurized. And grass fed meat only. 

It takes TIME.  Most people give up too soon. 

Offline Carl

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Re: Anyone else dealt with a frozen shoulder?
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2015, 06:47:54 AM »
DIET! Specifically, an anti inflammatory diet. And a few high quality supplements for rebuilding nerve, cartilage and muscle.

Once I got my inflammation down the arthritis like pain went away and I could move again and begin rebuilding.

For me that meant gluten free, grain free for a few months.  Still means no processed sugar.  Raw milk, not pasteurized. And grass fed meat only. 

It takes TIME.  Most people give up too soon.

This could be important though I ,due to diabetes ,also avoid all breads,grains,processed or not...more or less a PALEO diet..
Good advice!

And as it is upper body ,about all you need is one of the 3 foot or deeper bladder type pools as arm and upper body motion are your biggest need though legs can also work fine that shallow.
Stop complaining about life and start Celebrating it .

I've reached the age where there is little left to learn the hard way.

If you had only one year,one month,or one day...Would you live your life differently?

Offline artephius

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Re: Anyone else dealt with a frozen shoulder?
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2015, 07:04:48 AM »
DIET! Specifically, an anti inflammatory diet. And a few high quality supplements for rebuilding nerve, cartilage and muscle.

Yeah that's the big elephant in the room I've been avoiding... I do eat a lot of fresh stuff from my garden, but my total diet probably isn't the best. Maybe It's time to buckle down and try the one month paleo challenge. I never considered an anti-inflammatory diet as a way to help with this problem though (always thought of it along the lines of gut-type inflammation) but that makes sense!

It takes TIME.  Most people give up too soon.

Yeah that's the worst part I think. It just seems to never end.

Offline r_w

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Re: Anyone else dealt with a frozen shoulder?
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2015, 07:21:10 AM »
It took me about 90 days to turn the corner on gut health, AFTER we figured out the specific supplements and protocols that worked.  Took my wife 9-12 months.  It depends how long you have taken to get to this point. 

Paleo is a good baseline, but be careful about cruciferous veggies (broccoli) and a few others that are possible inflammation triggers. 

Raw milk and grass fed meat and butter are easy ways to get the right building blocks to rebuild joints.  Not cheap, but probably cheaper than supplements and way more enjoyable.

Offline DrJohn

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Re: Anyone else dealt with a frozen shoulder?
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2015, 08:03:49 AM »
My Wife had a frozen shoulder.  Took 2 years to fully recover, with PT, exercise, and Chiropractic care the WHOLE time.
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Offline MrGibTN

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Re: Anyone else dealt with a frozen shoulder?
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2015, 04:04:31 PM »
Hello artephius - I feel your pain!  Dealt with a severely frozen right shoulder for a solid 10+ months or so about a year ago.  At first I didn't know what was up...then thought it was just effects of middle age (that was depressing)...before figuring out it was frozen.   Got so bad that the pain/inflammation extended down into my arm into my hand - I literally could not twist open a soda bottle without nearly being in tears not to mention the immense pain when shaking someone's hand.  I got down to only about 10% of my normal grip strength and shoulder mobility.  In my case I think it was largely brought on by a job that had me working at a desk with poor ergonomics and reaching over all day to use the mouse/keyboard.

Like a lot of guys I hid it really well and winced through things until the point where I finally went to my wife for help.  Ironically my wife is an extremely talented fitness trainer with a host of certification and specialties.  Turns out she was able to fix the problem over the course of a couple months using Trigger Point Therapy.  I would highly encourage you, or really anyone with tough muscle issues to use your GoogleFu to research Trigger Point Therapy.  This is probably a lot of what your massage therapist was doing to help treat.  I'm back to 100% now - Thank God.

At the risk of putting in a shameless plug - my wife has great free blog with a wealth of information on both Trigger Points as well tons of free, body weight based resistance and interval training plans to help you get back in shape.  She'd use a much more technical description but I'm just her schlub husband so I'll just pass along the links - First one is specifically on frozen joints with links to Trigger Point resources, second is just her main page.

http://veryeffective.blogspot.com/2015/07/musclejoint-pain.html
http://www.veryeffective.blogspot.com/

Mods - feel free to delete if this is inappropriate.  We're in TN and there's nothing for sale on her site - just a great fitness blog with about 4 years of daily posts and exercise stuff that would appeal to us TSP'ers.

Offline artephius

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Re: Anyone else dealt with a frozen shoulder?
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2015, 08:00:24 AM »
MrGibTN, Thanks for the link. That looks like a very informative blog and it sounds like your wife definitely knows what she's doing.

I had to go massage therapist hunting for nearly a year before I finally found one that knew what to do. He also turned me on to Claire Davies and his trigger point therapy books - the ones referenced on your wife's blog. Great stuff! The guy that helped me was very knowledgeable and was able to explain to me what doctors would have done had I gone to them... (cutting, removing of vital body parts, etc). Thank god I didn't go that route when trigger point therapy is so effective.

Out of curiosity, did your wife have you on some sort of recooperation/recovery workout routine to help with the shoulder specifically without triggering a muscle "relapse"? That's my biggest problem, whenever I do anything to try to strengthen again (even taking it slow with 2lb dumbells) all the muscles tense back up again and stay that way until I hit the trigger points perfectly -- which for me is easier said than done.

Offline David in MN

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Re: Anyone else dealt with a frozen shoulder?
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2015, 02:13:33 PM »
I had an issue with this due to an old rotator cuff injury involving a 225 lb military press that went awry after a few reps...

I really need to keep up on my rotator cuff exercises or it comes back with a fury, particularly when I box. Certain lifts (pullover notably) also agitate it. I also stretch on an exercise ball (in my basement where no one will ever see) when it gets bad. Seems to be tied to my lats a little bit.

Big pitch here for fish oil and other anti-infammatory foods. Lots of greens. Spinach has a following with Nordic powerlifters. Cranberries. Nuts. You know the good stuff when you eat it.

Also consider exercises that promote movement. I do kettle bell, battle ropes, medicine ball, barbell circuits. Keeping loose and mobile helps.

As always with the body, YMMV.
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Offline surfivor

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Re: Anyone else dealt with a frozen shoulder?
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2015, 04:58:37 PM »
my shoulder or neck can bother me from surfing sometimes or other things. Various kung fu warm ups or movements can help if done every day for a good amount of time or several times a day. This video seems to have some of the warm up  movements I was taught or something similar. If interested, let me know and I will try to get more specifics but you can try certain movements here that seem to exercise the shoulder in one way or another.  I just googled for "kung fu warmups". Kung fu movements are very complex and can help with health because you are moving your body in many diverse ways rather than many simple repetitive movements associated with certain types of exercise or activities.

I know it works well from experience but you won't feel it kick in instantly, sometimes you do the movements everyday for a few days, then one day you wake up and the pain is a little less etc and you keep at it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6asdCupgdA

This one looks like it has really good stuff for the shoulder as well, I have not been able to find a video of a particular movement that I like but this seem impressive:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYeXNUKERQk
« Last Edit: August 07, 2015, 05:28:41 PM by surfivor »

Offline surfivor

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Re: Anyone else dealt with a frozen shoulder?
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2015, 05:40:06 PM »
this one is good too, you don't have to do it 100% the same way or any particular speed
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNSlf5fD5a4

Offline Carl

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Re: Anyone else dealt with a frozen shoulder?
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2015, 05:48:16 PM »
FUNNY, warm water,massage,exercise...that's about the same thing I do to prep a frozen pork loin. 8)
Stop complaining about life and start Celebrating it .

I've reached the age where there is little left to learn the hard way.

If you had only one year,one month,or one day...Would you live your life differently?

Offline The Professor

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Re: Anyone else dealt with a frozen shoulder?
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2015, 10:00:05 PM »
I had an over-exuberant student of mine go wild on an armbar which resulted in a totally locked shoulder.  Luckily no permanent damage to any ligaments occurred, but I did have a slight tear in my cartilage.

I couldn't lift my arm above shoulder level.  I couldn't shoot a pistol one-handed with that arm and I couldn't raise even the lightest carbine to my shoulder without weak-hand support.

I was a powerlifter at the time and that pretty much ended my participation in that sport.  However, I didn't stop lifting and had to go to much lighter weights.  I got a physical trainer that worked with me over the course of about 11 months and I got most of my mobility back with a wierd mix of yoga, pilates, partner-based stretching and light weightlifting.  However, due to the torn cartilage, while I'll say I had about 95% of my original mobility back, certain movements still hurt like a mother.

Ultimately, I had to have a bit of laparoscopic surgery to repair the cartilage and now, other than a slight tightness reaching straight up over my head, I'm pretty much good.

Now, for the kick in the hoo-hoos:  right after I got my mobility in my shoulder back and got cleared to go back to heavy (HEAVY) weights, I had another incident that jacked my fake knee up.  It's taken me until about six months ago or so to get it to the point where I got clearance for THAT. 

In the meantime, I've ballooned to 350 lbs., a weight gain of over 100 lbs. in the past two years.  My motivation is almost non-existent.  I know greater damage is being done to my body because of the weight.  I'm borderline diabetic, I'm edging towards hypertension, my joints hurt and what's worse, my metabolism seems to be going backwards!  It's so bad that I can't even stand for 10 or 15 minutes without having back pains.

My greatest problem seems motivation.  I retired (semi) from my job working as an actual college professor at one of the most active universities in the world.  Soon after, I moved away from the University and the social circle that had me lifting and teaching martial arts and generally being active.  The people who seek me out for my expertise mainly need only research, recommendations and information. . .most of which is best found either in books or online, so that's promoting a lot of inactivity.

But the biggest problem is getting myself to find a group of people with whom I feel socially comfortable that have an active lifestyle.  Something that I'm finding is much harder at my new location where Weekend BBQ's, pig-roasts and large quantities of adult beverages are the norm.   But, if I don't do something, I'm going to slide right into a very dangerous physical situation.

You don't want this.  As soon as you can, find a buddy or someone to go work out with.  Find someone who will motivate you and push you. Commit yourself to doing it. 

Right now, I'm on light blood-pressure regulating pills, a statin and a pill to help fend off diabetes.  Doing even basic walking is slow torture after 5 minutes and not having a workout buddy makes it all too easy to wuss out.   I'm not sure what scares me more: That I fell so far so fast or that I can't seen to find the motivation that I had not only two years ago to push myself in the gym.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do, but please do decide to do SOMETHING.  Injuries can be worked around, but you'll find out that the longer you wait the more difficult it is.

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Offline surfivor

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Re: Anyone else dealt with a frozen shoulder?
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2015, 01:36:17 AM »

 As I mentioned, I can get a chronic stiff shoulder or neck from surfing sometimes. But the martial arts warm ups, movements or chi kung type of exercises in those videos I posted have never failed to rectify the problem as well as other problems with my wrist or elbows. These movements always seem to help and they are soft movements and not strenuous.

 In kung fu or thai chi philosophy, there are energy centers in the body that can be blocked up. The complex movements which move various parts of your body can help clear those blocks and circulate chi energy in the body and help with healing. People can hire physical therapists and all that, but I feel like these movements are just as good or better in general.

Offline artephius

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Re: Anyone else dealt with a frozen shoulder?
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2015, 08:20:34 AM »
I had another incident that jacked my fake knee up.
Ouch sorry to hear that. Seems these things always come in pairs don't they.
My greatest problem seems motivation.  I retired (semi) from my job working as an actual college professor at one of the most active universities in the world.  Soon after, I moved away from the University and the social circle that had me lifting and teaching martial arts and generally being active.  The people who seek me out for my expertise mainly need only research, recommendations and information. . .most of which is best found either in books or online, so that's promoting a lot of inactivity.

But the biggest problem is getting myself to find a group of people with whom I feel socially comfortable that have an active lifestyle.  Something that I'm finding is much harder at my new location where Weekend BBQ's, pig-roasts and large quantities of adult beverages are the norm.   But, if I don't do something, I'm going to slide right into a very dangerous physical situation.

<snip>

Doing even basic walking is slow torture after 5 minutes and not having a workout buddy makes it all too easy to wuss out.   I'm not sure what scares me more: That I fell so far so fast or that I can't seen to find the motivation that I had not only two years ago to push myself in the gym.
Yeah that is exactly where I'm at. It's so hard to pull yourself out. I was also getting to the point where standing for any length of time was making my back hurt not long ago. I felt like such a wuss and that's what really motivated me to figure a way out.

Weight is definitely a tough one. I have the opposite problem. If I stop training I shrink and shrink down to nothing. That's just my body type though I think. I could train as hard as the next Mr. Olympia and be lucky to gain 20 pounds.

You don't want this.  As soon as you can, find a buddy or someone to go work out with.  Find someone who will motivate you and push you. Commit yourself to doing it. 
Yeah you're completely right. I'll have to do that. It's hard to find a good workout partner though. I'm usually the one trying to drag other people along and motivate them. I think just having any partner does help anyway since that competition spirit kicks in and won't let you wuss out until your partner does first!
Good luck with whatever you decide to do, but please do decide to do SOMETHING.  Injuries can be worked around, but you'll find out that the longer you wait the more difficult it is.

The Professor
Thanks for such a great post and good luck to you as well!

I don't think it's ever too late (when it's at least possible anyway) but you're dead on about it getting harder the longer you wait. Especially when you know what you used to be and be able to do. There's nothing worse than struggling with a 2lb dumbell when you used to use 30's.

...
Thanks for the links. I used to do kung fu as well until I tore a ligament in my wrist... (slipped out of a bow stance in the rain and it was either put the hand down, or do the splits, so I put the hand down. In hindsight the splits may have been the better choice.) Two years later when it finally healed I'd forgotten nearly everything and my school had closed apparently due to a sex scandal involving the master.  :o I should have listened to that little voice inside screaming at me to video everything back when I did it.. such a shame.

Your posts got me thinking though and I remembered the ba gua "serving tea" exercises! I did those for a while last night along with some basic tai chi/chi kung and wow that made a huge difference. Listening to all my joints crack and pop while slowly doing the serving tea was almost funny. It sounded like I was some sort of creature encased in rock slowly breaking free. Those exercises really are great for shoulder mobility. I'm glad no one was there to witness my tai chi though, my legs were shaking like CRAZY... An old master Yang probably was rolling in his grave...

I had an issue with this due to an old rotator cuff injury involving a 225 lb military press that went awry after a few reps...
Yikes that's doesn't sound good... Ironically the military press is the one weight exercise that both my chiropractor, and the good massage therapist told me to stay away from altogether.

I also stretch on an exercise ball (in my basement where no one will ever see) when it gets bad.
You too? That's funny, I always hide when I do the exercise ball too. Must be a guy thing. 8)

Offline never_retreat

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Re: Anyone else dealt with a frozen shoulder?
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2015, 11:19:09 AM »
Here I thought this thread was about pork.
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Offline surfivor

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Re: Anyone else dealt with a frozen shoulder?
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2015, 11:44:05 PM »
Quote
Thanks for the links. I used to do kung fu as well until I tore a ligament in my wrist... (slipped out of a bow stance in the rain and it was either put the hand down, or do the splits, so I put the hand down. In hindsight the splits may have been the better choice.) Two years later when it finally healed I'd forgotten nearly everything and my school had closed apparently due to a sex scandal involving the master.  :o I should have listened to that little voice inside screaming at me to video everything back when I did it.. such a shame.

Your posts got me thinking though and I remembered the ba gua "serving tea" exercises! I did those for a while last night along with some basic tai chi/chi kung and wow that made a huge difference. Listening to all my joints crack and pop while slowly doing the serving tea was almost funny. It sounded like I was some sort of creature encased in rock slowly breaking free. Those exercises really are great for shoulder mobility. I'm glad no one was there to witness my tai chi though, my legs were shaking like CRAZY... An old master Yang probably was rolling in his grave...

Artephius, kung fu, tai chi, chi kung are all pretty amazing .. not even for self defense but for health. My tennis elbow was talking along time to heal, whenever I did some kung fu for a couple of days I could notice it helped alot. I need to practice more. It loosens up your system in many ways. It will even cause me to have alot more frequent bowel movements which is a sign that your body is cleansing itself and that effect can last for indefinite periods after practicing.
It will also help with most stiffness problems and such.


 I believe a good teacher will emphasize that you do not have to practice in anyway that is strenuous, unlike karate or other martial arts forms. If you find a kung fu teacher who tries to push you in a way that seems like boot camp, then I would find another place. My teacher is totally laid back, yet a very dedicated chinese man who has won awards, been in Thai Chi magazine and studied all his life. That is just part of the philosophy. Kung Fu is technically a soft martial art. If some exercise or movement caused an injury, you should be able to avoid that type of movement because there are all kinds of movements and forms.

 If you do study kung fu seriously for self defense, I think it will help you more than any sort of body building or other types of exercise, but it can take alot of time to study. There are weapons forms that use swords, sticks, pitch forks etc as well ..

 Where do you live ? Most decent sized cities have martial arts places. You can go visit them each and see if you can find a good place, but any place that can push you such that injury might result I would avoid.
Thai Chi is also good as is Chi Kung

Offline surfivor

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Re: Anyone else dealt with a frozen shoulder?
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2015, 01:49:12 AM »
hard (external) and soft (internal) martial arts:

http://martialarts.jameshom.com/library/weekly/aa022601.htm

One such distinction is that between internal and external martial arts. External martial arts refer to those that rely on the body's external attributes, such as muscular strength and rigidity, skin and bone toughness, or technique speed and power to be effective. Most striking arts, including karate, muay thai, or tae kwon do, lie within the "external" category. Karate practitioners used to toughen their knuckles by striking a makiwara, or striking post, until heavy calluses formed on their hands. Tae kwon do stylists pride themselves on breaking boards, tiles, and bricks with forceful kicks. Muay thai fighters often lack feeling in their shins, the result of using their lower legs as clubs against their opponents.

..

Internal martial arts focus on the martial artist's internal attributes, such as focus, timing, awareness, and precision of technique. The slow movement of a tai chi master's forms might seem inadequate for combat--however, when needed, the master can speed up his movements to match that of his opponent, blending with the attacks and using the attacker's body weight and momentum against himself. Aikido, with its emphasis on blending with the attacker's movement and guiding him or her into the technique, is a classic example of an internal martial art. The following table describes some attributes of both categories:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_and_soft_%28martial_arts%29#Soft_technique

"The goal of the soft technique is deflecting the attacker’s force to his or her disadvantage, with the defender exerting minimal force.[1] With a soft technique, the defender uses the attacker's force and momentum against him or her, by leading the attack(er) in a direction to where the defender will be advantageously positioned (tai sabaki) and the attacker off balance; a seamless movement then affects the appropriate soft technique. In some styles of martial art like Wing Chun, a series of progressively difficult, two-student training drills, such as pushing hands or sticky hands, teach to exercise the soft-technique(s);"

---------------

http://www.nathanielwhitmore.com/budo-blog/hard-and-soft-styles-ofmartial-arts

Martial arts are split into two main categories:  Yin Styles and Yang Styles.  Yin styles are also called Soft Styles or Internal Styles, while Yang are known as Hard Styles or External.  In this sense yin, soft, and internal refer to the receptive, generally slow nature of styles like Tai Chi that focus on the health benefits of the art and on relaxing the body. In contrast, yang, hard, and external refer to the development of combative skill, brute strength, the generation of power, and a stimulating workout.
Often Karate is considered quite different than Tai Chi.  However, the differences are not necessarily as pronounced as many think.  First of all, it should be pointed out that the full name of Tai Chi is Tai Chi Chuan.  Chuan means fist, or fighting style.  Clearly Tai Chi evolved from "hard" martial arts and the early practice included "hard" training.
It is also interesting to consider that "Tai Chi" does not mean "soft" and definitely does not mean "yin".  In fact, Tai Chi means "Supreme Ultimate", or yin and yang.  Likewise, "Goju" means "hard-soft" (Goju Ryu is the karate style I study under Shihan Roger Wehrhahn).

Any style of martial arts, whether hard or soft, will contribute to health problems when imbalanced (too hard or soft).  While I agree that karate can be considered a hard style, if the hard is developed while neglecting the soft, it can shorten one's life and contribute to health problems.  If tai chi is practices without development of the hard or external practice the circulation will not be properly invigorated. It is a common claim that tai chi benefits the circulatory system, and that it accomplishes this largely throuhg training relaxation in general and during movements and postures.  However, if an individual's constitution is already more relaxed (cold) than they might very well benefit more through the practice of karate, which invigorates the blood.
In my opinion the general health benefit of hard styles in the develoment of strength and the invigoration of the blood and chi; while the health benefit of soft styles relates to relaxation of the tendons, connective tissue, circulatory system, and mind and with the sinking of the chi.  (Both hard and soft styles develop balance, coordination, and reflex.)
If one were to practice karate excessively without understanding the soft aspects and allowing the body to cool down, imbalance woudl result.  Likewise, if one were to only practice tai chi (as presented to the modern public), they may lack the invigoration of harder styles of martial arts, hard work, and exersize like walking.  Both hard and soft styles have hard and soft aspects.  And as with all things balance is key.


Offline artephius

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Re: Anyone else dealt with a frozen shoulder?
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2015, 08:41:46 AM »
We had a great balance of internal/external hard/soft practice at my old school. I think that balance is what makes kung fu so beneficial. In fact the master used to encourage us to practice everything he taught (from hard external styles like the tigers and eagle claw, to soft/internal tai chi and pa kua) and practice each form/technique three different ways. Once as normal external practice (like karate), including the tai chi forms. Once very slow and internally focused (just like tai chi), and once as fast and explosive as possible. On top of that was both hard and soft chi kung. I used to love torturing myself with I chin ching (yijinjing).

I think those three methods combined made for a very well balanced training method. I was in the best shape of my life back then so I completely agree that both are important and should be given equal attention.

Unfortunately there really aren't any schools near me -- within the distance I'm willing to commute to classes anyway so for now I'm stuck with the few basic things I do remember. At least tai chi is so commonly practiced you can at least learn/re-learn the movements from youtube.

Sure would be great if someone would put together a serious and complete online kung fu training system. I know it'd never be as good as class but with a couple buddies and lots of dedication I think it could work.


Offline surfivor

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Re: Anyone else dealt with a frozen shoulder?
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2015, 03:32:52 PM »
We had a great balance of internal/external hard/soft practice at my old school. I think that balance is what makes kung fu so beneficial. In fact the master used to encourage us to practice everything he taught (from hard external styles like the tigers and eagle claw, to soft/internal tai chi and pa kua) and practice each form/technique three different ways. Once as normal external practice (like karate), including the tai chi forms. Once very slow and internally focused (just like tai chi), and once as fast and explosive as possible. On top of that was both hard and soft chi kung. I used to love torturing myself with I chin ching (yijinjing).

I think those three methods combined made for a very well balanced training method. I was in the best shape of my life back then so I completely agree that both are important and should be given equal attention.

Unfortunately there really aren't any schools near me -- within the distance I'm willing to commute to classes anyway so for now I'm stuck with the few basic things I do remember. At least tai chi is so commonly practiced you can at least learn/re-learn the movements from youtube.

Sure would be great if someone would put together a serious and complete online kung fu training system. I know it'd never be as good as class but with a couple buddies and lots of dedication I think it could work.

 You live kind of far out in the backwoods ?

 As far as just the shoulder problem, I would think some basic Kung Fu warmups or simple Chi Kung exercises would help alot if you do them a few times a week for at least 15 or 20 minutes a day.

 Maybe you can learn some kung fu from videos, it might be a bit challenging. Also, try to piece together whatever you can remember from your classes

I google searched for videos like so: "chi kung movements for shoulders"

https://www.google.com/search?q=chi+kung+movements&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8#tbm=vid&q=chi+kung+movements+for+shoulders

Here are some interesting hits:

Frozen Shoulder Qi Gong Scott Bray DOM,A.p..mp4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-mWST7K6Io


Qigong Therapy for Neck, Upper Back and Shoulders
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZA5f9rYXZTo

Also, basic chi kung:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hO0P273wPXM

other search:
https://www.google.com/search?q=chi+kung+movements&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8#tbm=vid&q=chi+kung+movements+%22shoulder+pain%22

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRY7I1odRg4

This guy is doing a different approach:
Qi Gong Treatment for Shoulder, Neck and Head Pain by Mr Tan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nv5U5yOKkPw

testimony:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWOH3DSFw9o


Offline TexGuy

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Re: Anyone else dealt with a frozen shoulder?
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2015, 04:48:06 PM »
I second swimming, it use to help me more than I knew .... until I started doing it again. Just get in the water and "stretch" in the water and swim. Saltwater is better even tho  I prefer fresh.

Offline PorcupineKate

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Re: Anyone else dealt with a frozen shoulder?
« Reply #23 on: August 12, 2015, 08:56:59 AM »
I don't get frozen shoulder I tear rotator cuffs.  The stretching exercises are basically the same.  Google "shoulder pt  stretches" and you will find all sorts of good stuff.  Keep it moving and keep stretching it. 
These are the sort of stretches they first give you in PT.
http://www.backpainquotes.tk/wp-content/uploads/shoulder-rotator-cuff-exercises-20150615172546-557f0a9a5600c.jpg

Some sort of resistance bands are really useful for many of the stretches.   

There are also range of motion exercises that use a stick or broom handle to have you good arm assist the range of motion of the injured shoulder.

http://physiotherapyguide.blogspot.com/2011/06/exercise-for-frozen-shoulder.html

If there is no physical damage causing it I would get your blood sugar checked out.  Diabetes is one of the leading causes for frozen shoulder.  An MRI is the best and most expensive way to find out if you have damaged the shoulder. 

Offline artephius

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Re: Anyone else dealt with a frozen shoulder?
« Reply #24 on: August 12, 2015, 06:51:41 PM »
I don't get frozen shoulder I tear rotator cuffs.  The stretching exercises are basically the same.  Google "shoulder pt  stretches" and you will find all sorts of good stuff.  Keep it moving and keep stretching it. 
These are the sort of stretches they first give you in PT.
http://www.backpainquotes.tk/wp-content/uploads/shoulder-rotator-cuff-exercises-20150615172546-557f0a9a5600c.jpg

Some sort of resistance bands are really useful for many of the stretches.   

There are also range of motion exercises that use a stick or broom handle to have you good arm assist the range of motion of the injured shoulder.

http://physiotherapyguide.blogspot.com/2011/06/exercise-for-frozen-shoulder.html

If there is no physical damage causing it I would get your blood sugar checked out.  Diabetes is one of the leading causes for frozen shoulder.  An MRI is the best and most expensive way to find out if you have damaged the shoulder. 

Thanks for the advice. It definitely was an injury, though it was a slowly building one. I did a LOT of painting -- like rolling ceilings and walls of several hundred basements -- and lots of overhead electrical work on top of that, which caused the infraspinatus to get rock hard, leading to everything else surrounding compensating etc. etc... Textbook case...

Ironically the massage therapist that was able to identify the problem and mostly fix it for me suffered the same problem as he used to be a painter, and his nasty shoulder led him to a fascination with massage therapy which turned into a new career! If it didn't cost so much to be educated I'd consider doing that myself!

I'll give those exercises you linked a try. A couple of them (especially the external rotations) I've already been doing under recommendation from my massage therapist. It would probably be good to be doing all of them. He has me doing those movements with tiny dumbells.

Offline artephius

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Re: Anyone else dealt with a frozen shoulder?
« Reply #25 on: August 14, 2015, 06:29:27 PM »
Just thought I'd post an update in case anyone that is dealing with a bad shoulder comes along... I've been doing some basic tai chi postures, along with a random mix of a few exercises from the links surfvivor posted, and some really simple resistance band stuff for the last few days now and I have to say I've definitely noticed a major improvement. I'm taking it very slow (already made the mistake of going to fast and hard before), but there is definitely a difference.

Honestly I think it's the tai chi that has had the most impact. As I said in the OP my biggest problem is trying to somehow re-strengthen the shoulder, without causing all the trigger points to tighten back up again and I think the tai chi especially is really helping with that. I definitely recommend that anyone with this or any other muscle tension type problem consider tai chi (preferably under the instruction of an old chinese person if at all possible).

Offline Carl

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Re: Anyone else dealt with a frozen shoulder?
« Reply #26 on: August 14, 2015, 07:56:19 PM »
Just thought I'd post an update in case anyone that is dealing with a bad shoulder comes along... I've been doing some basic tai chi postures, along with a random mix of a few exercises from the links surfvivor posted, and some really simple resistance band stuff for the last few days now and I have to say I've definitely noticed a major improvement. I'm taking it very slow (already made the mistake of going to fast and hard before), but there is definitely a difference.

Honestly I think it's the tai chi that has had the most impact. As I said in the OP my biggest problem is trying to somehow re-strengthen the shoulder, without causing all the trigger points to tighten back up again and I think the tai chi especially is really helping with that. I definitely recommend that anyone with this or any other muscle tension type problem consider tai chi (preferably under the instruction of an old chinese person if at all possible).

The fluid controlled motion of tai chi is almost as good as water resistance...good for you.
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Offline artephius

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Re: Anyone else dealt with a frozen shoulder?
« Reply #27 on: August 14, 2015, 09:05:37 PM »
The fluid controlled motion of tai chi is almost as good as water resistance...good for you.

Yeah I want to go swimming so bad... really... but ugh last time it took two days before I felt "clean" again. I really can't handle all that chlorine. I searched around and there aren't any salt type pools nearby. There are special fitness places that use them, but I can't really afford to join some membership program right now.

This will probably sound like BS but I swear its true.. I actually had a dream last night someone gave me a huge above ground pool. I didn't remember it until I read your post. I was contemplating how I'd fill it and salt it and enjoy it as I slowly woke up... that was rather depressing...

Offline Skyliner

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Re: Anyone else dealt with a frozen shoulder?
« Reply #28 on: August 15, 2015, 10:13:00 AM »
I tore two tendons in my shoulder when I tried to catch myself after I fell in the shower. At first I thought it was just a slip, but it turned out to be from an irregular heart beat caused by lyme disease, which I did not know I had at that point. 

The pain was unreal, and would flare worse when the fever I started a few days later would spike up.  Initially I could control that pain with Ibuprophen or Tylenol, but eventually that did not work any longer.  My doctor chalked up the shoulder pain to lyme induced arthritis, and felt it would resolve with treatment of the lyme.  While the pain did decrease over time, it did not totally go away.  As a result, I favored that shoulder and ultimately lost a great deal of my range of motion.

Several years later, I re-injured the shoulder catching my wife when she slipped.  This time it was much worse to deal with and left me with almost no range of motion, strength, etc.  I would wake up in the night with terrible pain, and had to totally change the way I did things in order to avoid almost constant pain.  This lead to even more loss in my range of motion.

I started walking about 4 miles a day a few years ago, and was very diligent to not miss a day for any reason.  I did not really notice at first, but I started having less difficulty with pain in my shoulder.  It was still weak, and my motion was limited, but it was not something that I took mental note of all the time. 

This past spring I noticed that my range of motion had increased greatly.  I was able to raise that arm over my head to the same degree as my good arm, with no pain.  I started doing some light exercises on the shoulder with a Total Gym, mostly just stretching that shoulder with mild tension.  There was a bit of a hitch in the range that I would have to get past, but it seemed like it was more of a mental stop point than an actual physical restriction.  With a bit more working out, I now have full range of motion in that arm, no pain and my strength has greatly increased.

The only thing I can attribute this to is the walking.  I think the arm swinging while walking for about an hour per day gently increased my range of motion without me even noticing it.  Add to that better circulation and it seemed to do the trick. That is not the answer for everyone, but like swimming, walking at a good pace with a good arm swing might be the answer to an injury like this for some people.

Offline MrGibTN

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Re: Anyone else dealt with a frozen shoulder?
« Reply #29 on: August 26, 2015, 05:02:36 PM »
Artephius - Wanted to check back-in...I asked my wife what other exercises/treatments she recommended on an ongoing basis to help prevent and build back the affected muscles - I just do whatever exercises she tells me to so other than the body weight workouts with a strong emphasis on proper form I'd be hard pressed to provide specifics :)

She suggested that the best information and techniques, along with ongoing stretches, that she's come across is in a great book by Simeon Niel-Asher: The Concise Book of Trigger Points, 3rd edition.   She indicated it's usually available for half-price at Amazon and she recommends it to many of her personal training clients.

Best of Luck!