Author Topic: Self Defense or Murder?  (Read 6567 times)

Offline BlueHound

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Self Defense or Murder?
« on: August 08, 2013, 02:26:33 PM »
"The recent incident in Little Falls, Minnesota, in which two teenagers apparently broke into a man’s house and were subsequently shot by the home owner, brings into sharp focus the issue of what constitutes legitimate self defense. The story first broke just after Thanksgiving."

"As a longtime firearm instructor and gun rights activist I am constantly amazed at the lack of understanding by the average person of just what constitutes self defense. More importantly, they seem particularly naive about the complex, and often subjective, process by which any self defense case is likely to be judged. Ask any number of your friends the following question: “When can you use deadly force to protect yourself?”

"By and large you will get answers that are all too brief, all too simplistic, and more often than not, all too wrong. Typical responses will be “if you’re in fear for your life” or “if someone’s in your house, you can shoot ‘em.” The number of people who think that just because someone is in their house, that they can blast away willy-nilly with impunity is simply staggering."

https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/legal-issues/self-defense-or-murder/?utm_source=SilverpopMailing&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ar7_fc12_self_defense_or_murder.html%20%282%29&utm_content=
"Since the general civilization of mankind, I believe there are more instances of the abridgement of freedoms of the people
by gradual and silent encroachment of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations."
--  James Madison
“It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from his government.”


Offline Jack Crabb

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Re: Self Defense or Murder?
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2013, 04:41:51 PM »
"She was still gasping for air, so he fired what he called a "good clean finishing shot" under her chin "up into the cranium," the complaint said. And then police weren't called until the next day."

That may not play well to the jury.

Use of defensive force is authorized to counter the unlawful force. Once the threat is gone, so is the right to self-defense.

AOJ - ability, opportunity, jeopardy. The incapacitated assailant has no ability to cause harm. Without the ability, there is no opportunity. No ability or opportunity, no jeopardy.

Remember, Bernie Goetz won the criminal trial, but lost the civil trial due to a remark along the lines of "you don't look too bad, here's another." The added shot left the plaintiff paralyzed and Goetz subject to the civil judgment.
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Offline BlueHound

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Re: Self Defense or Murder?
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2013, 05:16:54 PM »
This is one case where the victim became the perpetrator.  He buried himself with his actions and his own words.

As responsible armed citizens, we can only shoot to stop the threat.  We can NEVER shoot to kill.  Shooting at the center of mass is fine, but you're not doing it to kill.  You shoot there because it is the most effective way to stop the threat.  Once the threat is no longer a threat, you must stop shooting...unless you want to spend the rest of your life in the Iron Bar Hotel.

And it is critically important how you articulate what happened and why you did what you did when you speak to the police or the jury.  This guy is the perfect example of what not to do and say.  The prosecutor is virtually guaranteed a conviction.
"Since the general civilization of mankind, I believe there are more instances of the abridgement of freedoms of the people
by gradual and silent encroachment of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations."
--  James Madison
“It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from his government.”


Offline Rangeboss

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Re: Self Defense or Murder?
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2013, 07:01:37 PM »
As a responsible gun owner, know the laws, know the circumstances you can use lethal force and follow them. Once you bring a gun out, you have taken it to the next level. Just be prepared to explain and justify your actions. Unless your neighbor has lots of acreage and a back hoe. (Just kidding about the back hoe).
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Offline LibertyBelle

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Re: Self Defense or Murder?
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2013, 07:36:40 PM »
As responsible armed citizens, we can only shoot to stop the threat. 

Agreed.  However, if that first shot happens to be a lethal one....
"If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed.  If you do read the newspaper you are misinformed."--Mark Twain



Offline soupbone

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Re: Self Defense or Murder?
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2013, 08:23:46 PM »
This is one case where the victim became the perpetrator.  He buried himself with his actions and his own words.

As responsible armed citizens, we can only shoot to stop the threat.  We can NEVER shoot to kill.  Shooting at the center of mass is fine, but you're not doing it to kill.  You shoot there because it is the most effective way to stop the threat.  Once the threat is no longer a threat, you must stop shooting...unless you want to spend the rest of your life in the Iron Bar Hotel.

And it is critically important how you articulate what happened and why you did what you did when you speak to the police or the jury.  This guy is the perfect example of what not to do and say.  The prosecutor is virtually guaranteed a conviction.

Couldn't agree with you more, BlueHound. One of the things that get me sixteen kinds of upset, especially here at TSPF, is when I see posted questions like, "What kind of sniping rifle.....?", or posted intents to kill trespassers, criminals, people trying to steal your stuff, etc., etc. While I can only hope the folks who post stuff like that are fantasizing, I can only imagine the interest a prosecutor would show in harmless blowing off steam or trying to sound tough. And they will check.

NEVER EVER say or post that you would "shoot to kill"! NEVER EVER say or post that you would "shoot to protect your prepps"! NEVER EVER say or post that you would use deadly force against another human being unless you had absolutely NO ALTERNATIVE to save your, or someone else's, life!

Read the link that BlueHound attached - not just the story, but the comments. Now put yourself in a prosecutor's shoes and think of how you could use those replies to hang someone out to dry. Think of how a jury of "ordinary" people would react on hearing some of those comments. Using lethal force to defend yourself is a very tricky business, something to be regretted whether or not it is a "good shoot".

Sorry for the rant,

soupbone
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Offline MississippiJarhead

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Re: Self Defense or Murder?
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2013, 11:54:45 PM »
  • This guy is a dumbass.
  • If you are breaking into someones home you deserve to be shot.
  • If you shoot someone and they are no longer a threat you should call 911 immediately.
  • The facts, as indicated in this story add up to MURDER.


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Offline archer

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Re: Self Defense or Murder?
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2013, 09:41:15 AM »
he went way beyond what is justifiable.


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Offline hackmeister

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Re: Self Defense or Murder?
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2014, 09:19:40 AM »
http://www.startribune.com/local/255975891.html

The guy basically buried himself. He will be going to jail. You have to call the police right away even if the shooting is justified.

Offline Cedar

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Re: Self Defense or Murder?
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2014, 09:32:19 AM »
I thought this was the same incident, but apparently not.

More than 500 people gathered in Hamburg on Sunday to mourn the death of a student shot in the US during a school exchange. The teenager was shot in Missoula by a homeowner whose garage he was in. The homeowner, Markus Kaarma, 29, has been arrested and charged with murder. He reportedly fired four shots at Diren.

http://www.thelocal.de/20140505/hundreds-mourn-exchange-student-diren-dede-shot-in-us

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Re: Self Defense or Murder?
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2014, 11:32:53 AM »
I thought this was the same incident, but apparently not.

More than 500 people gathered in Hamburg on Sunday to mourn the death of a student shot in the US during a school exchange. The teenager was shot in Missoula by a homeowner whose garage he was in. The homeowner, Markus Kaarma, 29, has been arrested and charged with murder. He reportedly fired four shots at Diren.

http://www.thelocal.de/20140505/hundreds-mourn-exchange-student-diren-dede-shot-in-us

Cedar
No, but similarly, this guy did some pretty indefensible things:

Quote from: The Missoulian
... set up a surveillance camera and motion sensors – hoping to catch burglars who had allegedly taken phones and credit cards from them in recent weeks.

Pflager told police that she intentionally placed a purse in the garage “so they would take it,” and left the door open 5 1/2 feet. Then she placed a baby monitor in the garage and installed motion sensors outside.

http://missoulian.com/news/local/charging-document-missoula-man-waited-up-to-shoot-kid/article_f7551102-cf0e-11e3-9619-001a4bcf887a.html

Setting someone up so you can catch them is one thing.  Setting someone up so you can kill them is quite another. ::)

Offline xsquidgator

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Re: Self Defense or Murder?
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2014, 11:10:38 AM »
Quote
Ask any number of your friends the following question: “When can you use deadly force to protect yourself?”

"By and large you will get answers that are all too brief, all too simplistic, and more often than not, all too wrong. Typical responses will be “if you’re in fear for your life” or “if someone’s in your house, you can shoot ‘em.” The number of people who think that just because someone is in their house, that they can blast away willy-nilly with impunity is simply staggering."

+10,000,000 on this point.
Get some basic training on this, the "rules of engagement". 

As a cop I know said, "to protect yourself, you need to know 1-how to shoot a gun, 2-how to fight with a gun, and 3-WHEN to fight."  For a typical private citizen, #3 might be the most important of these things to know.  You could lose everything you've worked for, and your liberty, too, if you screw up #3, and too often topic #3 gets short shrift in training classes.

I think the gold-standard of private citizen training on this is Massad Ayoob's MAG-40 (previously LFI-I) class.  A forty hour class with a minor in how to shoot, and a major in when to shoot and how to handle the aftermath. 

For Florida residents, Jon Gutmacher's "Florida Firearms Law 7th Ed" is another valuable source of information.  I definitely recommend that book for Floridians, and also for people in other states where there may not be a similar handy book.  He explains state and federal law, including use of deadly force.

Offline Josh the Aspie

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Re: Self Defense or Murder?
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2014, 11:32:46 AM »
In any conversation about appropriate use of force, I explain to others that my #1 primary goal is to ensure that I, and anyone under my protection (say, I have a family member with me) gets out of the situation safely.  #1 goal.  And that I will act to maximize my chance of that.  Also, note: unless I have declared you under my protection, or you're a child in my direct company, don't assume you are under my protection.

I will not risk my life to kill my attacker, or to keep him alive.  If running means I'm more likely to survive, I run.  If shooting, I shoot.  But I'm not going to try to run just because a law says I must, if in my judgement, my best option is to fight.  Better to be judged by 12, than carried by 6.

To survive intact is my goal.

That said, there's a reason they used to hang horse thieves.  There used to be (and still are) conditions where if you are left in the middle of no-where without transportation, food, or water, you WILL die.  In a TEOTWAWKI situation where you can't just go to the store and replace what was taken, thievery may well endanger your life.  If someone is stealing your food animals, or your crops, and you're already not sure you'll have enough food to survive the winter, isn't that person putting your life in jeopardy?  What if he's stealing the fuel for your heater you'll need to keep from freezing to death?

We live in a time that, while it has it's faults, is spectacular in that there are a wide range of things that don't presently put our lives in danger any more, that would have in previous times.

Offline OutWestTX

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Re: Self Defense or Murder?
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2014, 12:03:31 PM »
Murder.  It was an ambush.  People like that give law-abiding gun owners a bad name.
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Offline Sephiroth

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Re: Self Defense or Murder?
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2014, 07:32:48 AM »
Hey folks,

I wanted to ask if anybody has a good website or article i could read about Self Defense/Home Defense.

Here in Brazil, if you kill an armed assault-ant inside your own house, YOU go to jail. Simple. Because the Law does saw you have the right to defend yourself, but only int the same level of force as the aggressor.

- Guy comes in with a knife, all you can use is a knife.
- Guy comes in armed, you CAN use a Firearm as long as you dont kill him.
- You HAVE TO give a chance for Surrender before firing.
- You HAVE TO give a warning before firing.

So in a practical real life situation, you can´t do all that.... You can´t ask an agressor to please stop and leave, the encounter is going to last for about 5 seconds... So the Law, is very inappropriate for the real lfe situations.

In the last 10 years, 86% of the cases of armed Self-Defense ended up with the VICTIM IN JAIL.

So what should a guy like me do ? I got my permit to purchase Firearms, but in the first 2 years it is just a Level-1 permit, which means just a Pistol. No Shotgun or Rifle. I chose the Glock 21 as my Home Defense gun, i did a training at the range about how to deal with a home break in. But i still don´t see it happening in a way that will not end with me in jail....

Violence is escalating here. Fast. Mainly due to economy crashing up ans water shortage. That´s why i am worried right now....

Thanks !


 

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Offline shambo

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Re: Self Defense or Murder?
« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2014, 06:17:41 PM »
Hey folks,

I wanted to ask if anybody has a good website or article i could read about Self Defense/Home Defense.

Here in Brazil, if you kill an armed assault-ant inside your own house, YOU go to jail. Simple. Because the Law does saw you have the right to defend yourself, but only int the same level of force as the aggressor.

- Guy comes in with a knife, all you can use is a knife.
- Guy comes in armed, you CAN use a Firearm as long as you dont kill him.
- You HAVE TO give a chance for Surrender before firing.
- You HAVE TO give a warning before firing.

So in a practical real life situation, you can´t do all that.... You can´t ask an agressor to please stop and leave, the encounter is going to last for about 5 seconds... So the Law, is very inappropriate for the real lfe situations.

In the last 10 years, 86% of the cases of armed Self-Defense ended up with the VICTIM IN JAIL.

So what should a guy like me do ? I got my permit to purchase Firearms, but in the first 2 years it is just a Level-1 permit, which means just a Pistol. No Shotgun or Rifle. I chose the Glock 21 as my Home Defense gun, i did a training at the range about how to deal with a home break in. But i still don´t see it happening in a way that will not end with me in jail....

Violence is escalating here. Fast. Mainly due to economy crashing up ans water shortage. That´s why i am worried right now....

Thanks !
I am sorry to say, but you maybe screwed.  You can not guess on how a conflict is going to shake out with an intruder.  Using Brazil logic you cant kill them till you get killed first with a firearm?  I hope you plan on using real self defense stories to hopefully sway your government to change its silly ways concerning self  protection.   Sounds like you  should be worried.  My prayers go out to you and yours.

Offline Carl

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Re: Self Defense or Murder?
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2014, 04:52:38 PM »
It was murder...

With my dog, it would be a mercy shot.

We have CASTLE LAWS here.  Quote below:

CASTLE LAWS

Long before Louisiana took steps to enact its own stand your ground laws in 2006, it had in place strict "castle laws." These statutes allow any Louisianian to use force, deadly or otherwise, to protect oneself on his or her property, or "castle." The protection is applicable to both one's home and car.

Specifically, before 2006 the law said the use of force was justifiable when preventing an offense against one's personal safety or the safety of one's property, but only if the amount of forced used was "reasonable and apparently necessary to prevent such offense."

The law also stated homicide was justifiable in similar cases: when committed in self-defense by one who "reasonably believes" he is in danger of great bodily harm or death; to prevent a forcible felony; and to prevent trespass on private property.

The justifiable homicide statute did and does not apply, however, to those who use deadly force while in the process of selling drugs.

End of quote.

The "prevent trespass on private property" may be a bit sketchy but I hate to waste ammo with a warning shot.   :o
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Offline Sephiroth

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Re: Self Defense or Murder?
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2014, 05:57:01 AM »
I see,

Very difficult topic to discuss...

I talked to a friend of mine who happens to be in the DA´s office of São Paulo. He told me, if i ever happen to find myself in such a situation and the aggressor dies, first thing to do is call the Police, because that shows a "lack of guilt" attitude. And also, he told me to lie, because it is up to the state to prove i exceeded force, and they wont have other ways to prove that because it was in my home.

Everybody is innocent until proved otherwise. And if it happens in your home, they can´t get forensic info because you have the right not to produce proof against yourself.

So if it happens, try not to kill the attacker. If it happens, call the Police and your lawyer and tell a very good story.

But still, this is very difficult to do....
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Offline Carl

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Re: Self Defense or Murder?
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2014, 09:12:30 AM »
I see,

Very difficult topic to discuss...

I talked to a friend of mine who happens to be in the DA´s office of São Paulo. He told me, if i ever happen to find myself in such a situation and the aggressor dies, first thing to do is call the Police, because that shows a "lack of guilt" attitude. And also, he told me to lie, because it is up to the state to prove i exceeded force, and they wont have other ways to prove that because it was in my home.

Everybody is innocent until proved otherwise. And if it happens in your home, they can´t get forensic info because you have the right not to produce proof against yourself.

So if it happens, try not to kill the attacker. If it happens, call the Police and your lawyer and tell a very good story.

But still, this is very difficult to do....

YES,though many say they would ,it is tough to end a life, I KNOW. And even if it is justified...it is rarely as simple as television portrays ....It is a decision of LAST RESORT,when you have no other escape or hope.
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Offline trekker111

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Re: Self Defense or Murder?
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2014, 10:42:28 PM »
Even in a state with a castle doctrine law, or a stand your ground law, it would still be murder. In addition to  the elements already established to use force, the force used also has to be reasonable, and the situation has to be reevaluated as the situation changes. Just because it would have been justified, doesn't mean it still is. It has to be justified at the instant you use force.

With my 15th anniversary in law enforcement approaching, it amazes and dismays me how many people think you can shoot someone who is commiting a crime they are the victim of, like trespassing.