Author Topic: Self defence scenerio  (Read 4119 times)

Offline mnotlyon

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Self defence scenerio
« on: February 09, 2015, 05:34:00 PM »
Every time I read a news story about a self defence incident, I try to put myself in that situation so I can mentally react. I've got one that unfortunately happened to my 22 year old son. What would you do?

According to my son, he and about 8 of his frat brothers were at a friends house minding their own business, having a few beers. Four guys came to the private party and were asked to leave. Words were exchanged, and the guys left.

They came back with 11 friends (15 total). By this time there were only 6 frat brothers left in the house. The party crashers kicked the door in and proceeded to beat the crap out of everybody in the house. It ended when the home owner grabbed a shotgun and ordered them to leave. One of the crashers walked towards him and said, "you won't do it, go ahead and shoot me I dare you". The frat brother racked the slide of the EMPTY shot gun and the crashers decided to leave.

One of the frat brothers had surgery on a broken jaw and sinuses. Some of the others ended up with stitches. It looks like everybody will be ok.

Now, the question is, what would you have done?

If I were there, I would have been armed. Normally, I have an LCP in my pocket without an extra mag. With 15 young guys against 6 young guys and an old guy, I would likely have shot. I'm confident that I could prove disparity of force. I'm not confident what would have happened when my 6 shots were gone. :(  In hind sight, I'd rather take a beating than kill somebody, but who know's what a gang like that might do?


Offline Cedar

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Re: Self defence scenerio
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2015, 05:50:51 PM »
Granted I am 5'6"

1. Call 911 and get them on the way. Did not one of those guys have a cell phone?
2. Get out of the building, away from the ruckus.... and/or...
3. Find an equalizer
4. Not let the 'bad guys' get between me and an escape.
5. Look for an out
6. If they insist on getting in an altercation with me, fight dirty and come out on top. Take out their airway.. which you can do with even a finger, no matter what your size.

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Offline trekker111

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Re: Self defence scenerio
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2015, 07:12:14 AM »
Not knowing what state you are in, the laws surrounding such an incident may vary. My state of South Carolina is a castle doctrine state, so if the story happened as your son says it did, then as soon as the door was kicked open, the ones who came in were bought and paid for, as long as they were still inside the house.

This sort of situation, multiple attackers, is why when I assist with concealed carry classes I recommend against small pocket pistols. Even off duty I carry a gun of substantial cartridge and capacity, usually either a glock 22 or 27, 40 s&w, 15+1 and 9+1 respectively. While hunting/ camping usually a revolver in 45colt.

There are a few things that raised my curiosity and caused pause, in your son's story. I must fully admit that some of these may simply be being jaded by 15 years in law enforcement, and past experience fueling assumptions on my part, and just as much time as a father, and it tempering your sons story to you.

Is your son, and his frat brothers, old enough to drink? Very rarely have I ever heard of frat brothers having a few beers actually meaning just that. When I was that age, a few beers meant I was probably somewhere between 2x the legal limit, and alcohol poisoning.

Words being exchanged was quite possibly more than the simple picture that statement gives.

Alcohol can complicate what would otherwise be a fairly simple self defense shooting. The mere possession of a firearm while under the influence is often a criminal offense. The extent of the words which were exchanged can further complicate things, as your son and his friends could be shown as contributing to the incident, and therefore nullifying legal protections which would help the homeowner who grabbed the shotgun.

Their alcohol consumption would not complicate the situation for you, had you been there, however, the extent of the words exchanged between the 2 sides, if shown that your son and his friends contributed to the incident, could also complicate your use of force to defend them.

The saving grace in this situation would be the kicked in door. That single point would likely reverse the previously mentioned complications in all but the most liberal jurisdictions.

Offline GreyWolf

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Re: Self defence scenerio
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2015, 08:32:54 AM »
I live in Missouri. We have something here called the castle doctrine which says if someone kicks in your door you do not have to retreat to the furthest corner of your bedroom while your attacker has to have a lethal weapon in his hands before you are allowed to use your firearm to protect yourself and your family. Not sure which state you live in. Irregardless of how much alcohol was consumed there is no justification for kicking in someones door and then assaulting the occupants. In this state that will get you killed real quick. Cedar has the right idea, if presented with this situation grab the cell phone, call 911, then pick up the nearest blunt object and go to town on these a@@holes. They get what they deserve. Amazingly it required the resident owner to display a weapon and then by racking a round into the chamber to show he was willing to use it to protect himself and the occupants to put an end to the attack. I remember when concealed carry was allowed in a few states. The FBI statistics proved that crime was reduced because of this right. In Florida gang members were car jacking rental car drivers because they could detect them by the license plate. They knew that out of state drivers were unarmed therefore easy victims who could not fight back. Florida has since changed their rental car license plate laws. Sadly bullies do not respect the rights of others. You have to motivate them to accept the fact that you have the right to exist without being attacked every time they get the itch. If you do not stand up to those who bully you then you will be attacked. I'm glad the incident did not turn lethal for all concerned.A police report with charges filed should have been the next step.If nothing else to teach the attackers they cant go around kicking in doors and assaulting people without paying a price.

Offline Sephiroth

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Re: Self defence scenerio
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2015, 09:36:02 AM »
Self defense, one very hard topic to discuss....

Well, IMO the best to do is avoid a fight/confrontation even if i am right or armed. Because no matter if you are right or wrong, you WILL HAVE the legal issue afterwards to attend to and also the social/pysological issue to cope with...

If a person breakes into my home without a gun:

1º - Tell the person to go away from a safe distance.

2º - did not work, get into a room, lock it and call 911.

3º - Even after knowing the Police is on its way, the person starts to break stuff or come at me, then yes. I start fending off the attack   from non-lethal to, god forbid, lethal. This avoids me beeing prosecuted for not giving the attacker the chance to back off.

But, if the person breakes in and HAS A GUN:

1º - Look for an escape route.

2º - No escape route ? Lock myself in and call 911.

If shots are fired, and i dont have a gun well then to bad i never had an emergency plan for a Predator attack... Which is what i am starting to work on.

Always avoiding a fight or killing someone, even if legitament, is the best IMO. Violence only generates more violence. And there is always the chance i am the one that gets hurt the most.

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Offline mnotlyon

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Re: Self defence scenerio
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2015, 10:52:55 AM »


There are a few things that raised my curiosity and caused pause, in your son's story. I must fully admit that some of these may simply be being jaded by 15 years in law enforcement, and past experience fueling assumptions on my part, and just as much time as a father, and it tempering your sons story to you.

Is your son, and his frat brothers, old enough to drink? Very rarely have I ever heard of frat brothers having a few beers actually meaning just that. When I was that age, a few beers meant I was probably somewhere between 2x the legal limit, and alcohol poisoning.

Words being exchanged was quite possibly more than the simple picture that statement gives.



We all know that my son is perfect. :)
Honestly, this isn't my first rodeo. I'm confident there are things that could have been done to de-escalate the situation that a group of frat boys wouldn't have done. I've got a theory on boys. If you have one boy in a room, he's a pretty good, intelligent kid. Each time you add another boy to the room, the IQ is divided by 2. By the time you have 6 or 8 in a room, you'd be lucky if they could tie their own shoes. :)

I live in Missouri. Our laws are pretty good for self defence. My son called me when the police arrived. He admitted to have been drinking, but his speech was not slurred and he was coherent.

I'm confident, that when the thugs returned, the laws in Missouri would have allowed me to defend myself by whatever means necessary. What I'm trying to figure out in my head is; What should I have done if I were in that situation with the tools that I typically have in my possession.

Yea, I'd like to have a larger gun with me, and a couple of extra mags. However, that's not what I usually have. If I were to be attacked while I was hunting, I'd have a 300 black out, and a glock 20 on my hip. :)

Most people have never been in a situation where things are calm one minute, and your door is kicked in the next. It takes a few seconds to figure out what is going on. By the time I would be aware of what is happening, most, if not all of the thugs would be in the house. I'd likely pull the gun and shoot the closest one(s) to me. In this situation, since I have hindsight, that may not be the proper decision. Shooting thugs could have caused the situation to escalate. That's what I'm trying to work out in my mind.

Offline CR Williams

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Re: Self defence scenerio
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2015, 11:34:53 AM »
You might want to consider moving up to one of the small 9mm semi-autos available. That way, each round of the limited load you have would potentially be more effective. Some of the small 9's are enough larger than the LCP that it should not be much more of a problem with pocket carry than the .380.

Even if you do stay with the LCP, take up a little space somewhere for at least one extra magazine. There are things that could happen even if you didn't have to empty the gun that would take a change of magazines to fix.
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Offline Carl

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Re: Self defence scenerio
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2015, 12:34:08 PM »
Weapons used against no weapons,even in a poor balance of power situation..Castle doctrine or not...will likely put you before a jury of your peers...who ,odds are,don't think like you. This will involve a costly defence at minimum and prison time a possible outcome.And there you are ,an old guy with a bunch of youngsters consuming alcohol , no ,it would not look good.

I don't think that way...but how many DO?
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Offline Sephiroth

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Re: Self defence scenerio
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2015, 02:06:33 PM »
Weapons used against no weapons,even in a poor balance of power situation..Castle doctrine or not...will likely put you before a jury of your peers...who ,odds are,don't think like you. This will involve a costly defence at minimum and prison time a possible outcome.And there you are ,an old guy with a bunch of youngsters consuming alcohol , no ,it would not look good.

I don't think that way...but how many DO?

I agree 100% Carl, reason why i would avoid it best i could... This would VERY LIKELY put a person on the stand at grand juri....
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Re: Self defence scenerio
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2015, 02:19:39 PM »
The biggest challenge is the alcohol involved.  Reaction times are slowed, judgement is impaired, and coordination is out the window, even at the "nice buzz" of college daze.  So your best options are out the window.  Heaven help you if you do use a firearm in self-defense.  In Colorado, even with our "make my day" law, you're on very shaky territory if you're possessing or using a weapon while intoxicated.  At the very least, you'll be charged with prohibited use of a weapon for possession under the influence.

With that out of the way, this is why I don't ever carry just a gun.  Less than lethal options need to be present at all times.  I carry pepper spray everywhere but the airport.  It's not the perfect solution, but it does take the fight out of someone really quickly, even if they're drunk.

I don't see the low capacity firearm as the issue.  When the first shot goes off, that house will be empty inside three seconds, including the guy you shot.  People don't stay to fight with fists and bats when there's gunfire in the air.  That said, I don't see this as a lethal force situation.  In a lot of ways, it's a learning experience.  A hell of a rough one, but other than one guy needing jaw surgery, I suspect everyone will come out of this a little wiser and likely to do things differently in the future, even if it's just watching the door more closely rather than having a laid-back attitude of youth and innocence. 

Offline CR Williams

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Re: Self defence scenerio
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2015, 09:13:32 AM »
Weapons used against no weapons,even in a poor balance of power situation..Castle doctrine or not...will likely put you before a jury of your peers...who ,odds are,don't think like you. This will involve a costly defence at minimum and prison time a possible outcome.And there you are ,an old guy with a bunch of youngsters consuming alcohol , no ,it would not look good.

I don't think that way...but how many DO?

Think which way?

No, you shouldn't defend your live against a marked disparity of force (at more than one level) when you can present many-on-one situations that have resulted in maiming or death to the victim combined with the known tendency of any individual in a crowd to act outside of constraints they would normally have individually combined with the presence and use of alcohol which is a known dis-inhibitor?

Or no, you should worry more about facing a jury and a lawyer than about being dead and leaving family and friends without you to help and support them or spending a preponderance of your near future in a hospital if not the entirety of your future crippled or physically disabled in some way?

Not much of a chance of recovery from being dead. And hard if it's even possible to come back from serious disabling injury. You need to be alive and whole to face the jury if indeed it comes to that.

I agree that the best way is not to be there when they come through the door. Otherwise, this is the way I think about it.

Don't try to fight two battles at once, ladies and gentlemen. Don't be thinking about the possible court fight before you've fought the fight that's in front of you. One fight at a time.

That said, there are things you can do to support yourself and help you be able to meet that second fight if it comes that you can set up now. You don't have to go in there with just your personal resources. Consider that as well.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2015, 09:18:39 AM by CR Williams »
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Offline helix2301

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Re: Self defence scenerio
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2015, 12:41:05 PM »
I agree 100% Carl, reason why i would avoid it best i could... This would VERY LIKELY put a person on the stand at grand juri....

I agree with Carl 100%  Call 911 and wait for the police and try to get away maybe out outside. One thing I have learned from self defense classes the best way avoid conflict can just be to walk away. Most of the time pulling a gun elevates the situation and people without a gun will react. You will be the one getting in trouble.

Offline Carl

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Re: Self defence scenerio
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2015, 01:05:36 PM »
A concealed Carry permit gives the person fewer excuses and very little protection should he use the weapon. It tells you where you can't carry and when you can't use the firearm...it does not protect you when you do use it. Pull the weapon to scare off the bad guy...you are illegally brandishing....say "I have a gun" and you are threatening...go to the aide of someone else and you are a vigilante...a court will decide the outcome..The permit is not a get out of jail pass or a shield to hide behind,if anything it serves to restrict your options in any scenario that it might come to use. A Permit often does not defend your even being found carrying as crazy as that sounds.

This is my opinion and I don't care if you don't believe it ,but read it and think again about how a PERMIT actually RESTRICTS.
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