Author Topic: Reloads for Self Defense Good Idea?  (Read 4067 times)

Offline 9mmMaster

  • Survivor
  • ***
  • Posts: 179
  • Karma: 5
  • New TSP Forum member
Reloads for Self Defense Good Idea?
« on: December 25, 2016, 02:28:19 AM »
Yes Yes Yes I know everyone says don't carry re loaded ammo for self defense. I've heard it you'll get raked over the coals in court. You could be painted into the uni-bomber in court. And on and on.

Question 1: Has anyone every actually been prosecuted for reloading there own ammunition?
For that matter has anyone know of a case where it's ever even been proposed???
I do not.

Question 2: Could there be good reasons for the use of hand loaded ammo for carry???
Reasons even the average jury of 12 would understand ?


Offline Chemsoldier

  • Pot Stirrer
  • Global Moderator
  • Survival Veteran
  • ******
  • Posts: 5116
  • Karma: 505
Re: Reloads for Self Defense Good Idea?
« Reply #1 on: December 25, 2016, 03:19:31 AM »
There are some cases apparently.

http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/reference-how-forum/81488-cases-where-handloads-caused-problems-court.html

BLUF:  GSR is probably the most likely source of problems.  The claim that you are developing fang face-ripper bullets is easily defeated through the use of expert witnesses (which you will have to pay for), unless of course the prosecution can present evidence that you do want to do ghoulish things with your bullets such as you posting a YouTube video claiming that you are developing fang face-ripper bullets.

I guess the question is why would you want to take the chance?  Find a commercial loading you like for carry and reverse engineer it to load your own practice ammo if you have the desire.  I don't know about anyone else, but reputable factory self-defense ammo I have purchased have always been more reliable than my own creations....though I will admit I dabble mostly.


I can't think of a good reason to carry hand loads aside from "you can."  For that matter, after you develop your pet load you can get a company to run a bunch of it as "custom factory ammo" so you have someone that can vouch for the loading.  http://customcartridge.com/ is just one of many I found on the intertubes.
"You can always count on Americans to do the right thing, after they've tried everything else"
-Winston Churchill

"You think health care is expensive now? Wait until its free!"
-P.J. O'Rourke

"Is it dangerous to enter the Forum?"
-Seneca

Offline never_retreat

  • Survivalist Mentor
  • *****
  • Posts: 909
  • Karma: 33
  • I am the Great Cornholio I need TP for my bunghole
Re: Reloads for Self Defense Good Idea?
« Reply #2 on: December 25, 2016, 08:23:21 PM »
Keep your mouth shut. Anyone asks, I got that ammo at a yard sale I think.
Negotiating with obama is like playing chess with a pigeon , the pigeon knocks over all the pieces , shits on the board, then struts around on the board like it won the game.

Offline trekker111

  • Survivalist Mentor
  • *****
  • Posts: 905
  • Karma: 70
Re: Reloads for Self Defense Good Idea?
« Reply #3 on: December 25, 2016, 09:58:38 PM »
The issue isn't getting prosecuted for using handloads, it is the lawyers claiming the ammo was purposely made to be more lethal, damaging, minimize gsr, etc, than regular ammo.

If you are charged the gun and your remaining ammo will be sent to a lab where the ammo will be found to handloads, not because they are looking for it but because they are thorough.

Expert witnesses usually start in the $5000+ range per trial for simple testimony, what does a box of factory self defense ammo cost?

Saying you don't remember can leave an opening for it to be claimed to be hiding something. Saying you bought it at a yard sale or from someone else can be spun into the same as the first paragraph.

Offline never_retreat

  • Survivalist Mentor
  • *****
  • Posts: 909
  • Karma: 33
  • I am the Great Cornholio I need TP for my bunghole
Re: Reloads for Self Defense Good Idea?
« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2016, 12:54:41 PM »
The issue isn't getting prosecuted for using handloads, it is the lawyers claiming the ammo was purposely made to be more lethal, damaging, minimize gsr, etc, than regular ammo.

If you are charged the gun and your remaining ammo will be sent to a lab where the ammo will be found to handloads, not because they are looking for it but because they are thorough.

Expert witnesses usually start in the $5000+ range per trial for simple testimony, what does a box of factory self defense ammo cost?

Saying you don't remember can leave an opening for it to be claimed to be hiding something. Saying you bought it at a yard sale or from someone else can be spun into the same as the first paragraph.
What about commercially re-manufactured ammo? Its going to have the same signs of being reloaded. I can be bought over the counter in many stores.

Personally I have factory ammo in my house guns. But I would not see it as a problem. Your smart and not talking to anyone you lawyer is.
What was in the shell is really a mute point. (Assuming you not shooting 12 ga shells full of dimes or other crazy crap)
Negotiating with obama is like playing chess with a pigeon , the pigeon knocks over all the pieces , shits on the board, then struts around on the board like it won the game.

Offline CPT Morgan

  • Survivalist Mentor
  • *****
  • Posts: 882
  • Karma: 52
  • Don't Be Tolerant Today Dead Tomorrow
Re: Reloads for Self Defense Good Idea?
« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2016, 03:10:42 PM »
Given the horror stories that may or may not be true, is there actually a valid reason for using hand-loads for self defense?  Given that a true self defense is going to be very close-quarters only, it's not like you MUST train with them to be effective with them, so that rules out cost savings....  Am I wrong?

nkawtg

  • Guest
Re: Reloads for Self Defense Good Idea?
« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2016, 03:51:30 PM »
I would say any altered ammo is a bad idea for self defense.
Take cut-shells for instance.
Altering bird-shot shells to make them more lethal.

Offline 9mmMaster

  • Survivor
  • ***
  • Posts: 179
  • Karma: 5
  • New TSP Forum member
Re: Reloads for Self Defense Good Idea?
« Reply #7 on: December 26, 2016, 10:36:49 PM »
I know what you're saying but a lot of things are possible but show me.

Does any actually know of this actually happening or actually being attempted in court.
Can you show me one case and court case???


Offline 9mmMaster

  • Survivor
  • ***
  • Posts: 179
  • Karma: 5
  • New TSP Forum member
Re: Reloads for Self Defense Good Idea?
« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2016, 10:44:41 PM »
If as stated above they take the ammo and firearm ( most certainly will). They can fire it test is and easily see its in SAAMI specs.

If an attorney tried to say you were making "crazy ammo" your attorney could easily say any prove
1. Ammo was within manufacturing specifications.
2. The Projectile you used is used in other defensive loads at the same or higher velocity.
3. It was the load you were most comfortable with and shoot most often and you believed you had the best chance of hitting the target and thus less likely to injure dystanderds.

Offline Mountain State Prepper

  • Survival Demonstrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 2002
  • Karma: 67
  • Proudly owned by a yellow lab!
Re: Reloads for Self Defense Good Idea?
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2016, 05:51:35 AM »

For similar reasons, I leave my carry gun completely stock.   No trigger jobs, no night sights, no nothing.   Straight up out of the box Glock.   There is plenty of good ammo on the market, I don't use reloaded ammo personally.  I don't have any specific stories or references, just what instructors have discussed in basic handgun training through the NRA.   

If you really have to know or find out specific cases in your jurisdiction, I'm sure you can get an attorney to sit with you for an hour and answer questions.    Sometimes it is worth the $$ to ask the professionals.   That being said, the same NRA instructors above will likely tell you to seek out the law firms that the police themselves use.



--Montani Semper Liberi

Offline Carl

  • Mr HamTastic!
  • Forum Veteran
  • *********
  • Posts: 11163
  • Karma: 617
  • COW?...No ,I haven't seen your cow.
Re: Reloads for Self Defense Good Idea?
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2016, 06:08:26 AM »
  I use reloads because....

I load a lower power than factory round

I use hollow points for the lower ricochet chance to be safer for others.

I load my own for economy and precision as I am a target shooter and was preparing to go to the range.

EVEN a proper defensive shooting will often cost you time in court...still better than time in coffin.
Stop complaining about life and start Celebrating it .

I've reached the age where there is little left to learn the hard way.

If you had only one year,one month,or one day...Would you live your life differently?

endurance

  • Guest
Re: Reloads for Self Defense Good Idea?
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2016, 06:19:09 AM »
I know what you're saying but a lot of things are possible but show me.

Does any actually know of this actually happening or actually being attempted in court.
Can you show me one case and court case???
Did you actually look at the links Chem posted?  There are court cases in there.

ignore the facts at your peril.

Offline 9mmMaster

  • Survivor
  • ***
  • Posts: 179
  • Karma: 5
  • New TSP Forum member
Re: Reloads for Self Defense Good Idea?
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2016, 05:10:17 PM »
Yes I read the cases Chen soldier posted.
He did a great job thank you Chem Soldier.

After reading them all were acquitted and though the fact that reloaded ammo was brought up in court it did not change good vs bad shootings.



Offline David in MN

  • Survivalist Mentor
  • *****
  • Posts: 537
  • Karma: 56
Re: Reloads for Self Defense Good Idea?
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2016, 05:38:19 PM »
I'd suggest a MAG 40, Youtube an old LFI course, or anything produced by Masaad Ayoob. It will put to bed bad ideas like this. When you must defend yourself you DO NOT give the DA or wrongful death attorney any help.
Livin on a thin line, tell me now what are we supposed to do?

Offline DDJ

  • Survivor
  • ***
  • Posts: 178
  • Karma: 10
  • New TSP Forum member
Re: Reloads for Self Defense Good Idea?
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2017, 11:04:20 AM »
Plus one for reading and watching Massad Ayoob.

I remember reading one of Ayoob's books ( It was Combat Shooting,1334 of 4192 on the Kindle version of the book in the Ammo Issues section)  where he discussed this and cases he as worked on. The points I remember are:
1) The testing will be done with ammunition tested for the verification of your story will be factory ammunition based on the head stamp.  As you used a different powder and bullet your story will NOT be reproduced in the lab.  Things like powder burns and expansion (a factor of velocity) will be different and there for the distance from the attacker to you will not be backed up by testing.  This will make your story inconsistent which the other side will call a LIE. 
2) Your reloading lags will not be admissible so they can not be used to show a difference from what a factory load would be.
3) As discussed above you "made ammo specifically to Kill my clients"

As I was verifying that it is what I remembered I saw that a Judge actually accepted an argument as described (poorly) in point 1.



Offline trekker111

  • Survivalist Mentor
  • *****
  • Posts: 905
  • Karma: 70
Re: Reloads for Self Defense Good Idea?
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2017, 08:46:46 PM »
The other elephant in the room of this discussion is that jury's are fikkle creatures, and common sense is not a pre requisite for service on them. Knowingly doing anything that could increase the chances of altering even one jurors perception of you is a bad idea, imo.

Is using handloads based on published data any significant difference than factory ammo? No. Could a juror or 2 still be convinced by a slick lawyer that there is and use it to cast you in a bad light? Unfortunately, yes. And can that perception of you by a juror or 2 be used to flip what would have been an aquittal into a guilty verdict? Yes.

This is the reason why you will not find any law enforcement agency carrying handloads even in situations where the argument for them carry the most weight such as accuracy for snipers. When liability gets shifted from one place to another it's always best to be able to have liability fall on someone else.

At least for me, knowing that hand loaded ammo has the potential to make life more difficult for me you're my attorney is enough to stay away from it in my carry guns. Mounting the best defense possible starts with doing everything I can to reduce all these wild cards that could come into play. Hand loaded ammo, non factory-spec parts in my gun, etc, are all things that can be used to put the spotlight back on me. Why add complexity to the case when it is so easily eliminated before the fact.

Unfortunately, sometimes with juries fact has to compete with perception and feeling, and sometimes it comes down to luck, and whether or not a juror "likes" you or not.

Offline 9mmMaster

  • Survivor
  • ***
  • Posts: 179
  • Karma: 5
  • New TSP Forum member
Re: Reloads for Self Defense Good Idea?
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2017, 06:39:06 PM »
Let me be Clear I do not carry reloads for self Defence.
 I think it's a bad idea Most of the time.
 I think it's a bad idea the Vast Majority of the time.

But I can think of some times where it might be a Good Idead. Hear me out.

1. It's what your gun will handle best.
      Example: I know a man who I have shot many competitions who shoots with an old top break Weably Revolver re-chambered in .45 ACP. His loads while still deadly  are not as "hot"  as factory .45 ACP
That guns not built for that. But this guy is better and faster with this gun than most people with a Glock 19
If he wants to carry that gun with 200gr lead SWC and 4.1 700x because his gun handles that and he's well practiced in it. Ide say that's a good choice.

2. Purpose built load for a certain job. Let's say you live in Alaska or Montana. Your an outdoorsman / hunter who likes to carry a .44 mag. You load 325gr cast lead. Hunt with it, you have that gun with you mostly for animals but it is your main carry gun "my father does this" he has taken many animals with this load it's what's in his gun. Should he constantly switch to buffalo bore of Hornady every time crosses into city limits because it's a factory load and re adjust his Leupold scope to match the load ? I say in this situation it's better to carry the hand load.


Offline NWPilgrim

  • Dedicated Contributor
  • ******
  • Posts: 1449
  • Karma: 97
  • New TSP Forum member
Re: Reloads for Self Defense Good Idea?
« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2017, 06:09:24 PM »
Personally I have factory hollow point ammo in my SD pistols. BUT, I keep handloads in my .44 mag (woods) and AR-15 (home SD), and my "secondary defensive pistols.  Carrying any ammo means you should have shot at least a couple of hundred rounds of it to prove reliability in each pistol, and that you shoot it often enough to to be familiar with it.  I really can't afford to be doing this for more than one caliber and a few pistols, but I make that investment with my .40S&W Glocks.  It was pretty expensive to re-test when I switched from the old HydraShoks to the new Win PDX ammo.  I practice with handloads that are similar to the factory, but I periodically run a box or two of factory through each pistol.

I am not likely to use my .44 mag for human defense and my secondary pistols likewise are not likely to get employed for SD.  So I just load them with my practice ammo all the time, usually hardcast lead or plated, or sometimes with factory FMJ.

The AR-15 would be very expensive to prove out and practice with premium factory ammo and is less likely than my pistols to be used for SD. So I load them with my most accurate handloads.

If my funds were even more limited I would probably just carry factory FMJ and practice with hardcast lead.  If for some reason I had run out of factory ammo, I would hesitate to carry handloads until I could acquire and verify some factory ammo.
There have always been times like this, and there will be again. Will we rise to the challenges or get run over?

Offline 9mmMaster

  • Survivor
  • ***
  • Posts: 179
  • Karma: 5
  • New TSP Forum member
Re: Reloads for Self Defense Good Idea?
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2017, 08:14:43 PM »
NW pilgrim
You may look into Winchester Train and Defend ammo.
Great idea great product.
 Even though I reload I use it for just this reason.
Winchester makes the Train line with the same bullet profile same weight velocity feeding characteristics and same point of aim point of impact as there defend line in the same caliber. And it's not overly expensive $14 for 50 9mm. then you can load your carry gun with the Defend line which are the same just with a defensive projectile. Hollow point defensive rounds. My Berettas Glocks 1911s and J frame love this stiff it's top shelf. Gets good marks in ballistics gel to boot.

https://youtu.be/KwsVe1fxXLE




https://youtu.be/GD0VyuWgexs

Offline NWPilgrim

  • Dedicated Contributor
  • ******
  • Posts: 1449
  • Karma: 97
  • New TSP Forum member
Re: Reloads for Self Defense Good Idea?
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2017, 08:58:02 PM »
I'll look into that, I had not heard of this line from Winchester.  I shoot a ton of reloads for practice and fun, and only periodically load up factory ammo.  About every five years or so I look around to see of there have been any significant changes to factory offerings that would make it worthwhile to changeover.  The bonded HP was the last big change I thought was significant.

I always wondered why the factories did not make at least one FMJ load to exactly match their HP bullet profile and loading specs.  In .40S&W for a long, long time the only FMJ you could find was for 180 gr, yet the HP ammo was available in 135, 155, 165 and 180.  I like the 165 gr load for my pistols and seems just in the last year or so a couple of brands are now offering 165 gr FMJ (I think PMC and Blazer at least).  I try to approximate the factory load with my handloads but that can be tedious when various powders go out of stock for long periods.

I'll look into the Train and Defend ammo concept, thx!
There have always been times like this, and there will be again. Will we rise to the challenges or get run over?