Author Topic: Rough Plumbing sanity check with my small ICF/SIP home in SE Michigan  (Read 1107 times)

Offline daveinmichigan

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As is the TSP way, I'll get the question/request stated first and then provide supporting information.

Does this plumbing drain isometric appear "correct"? Or in other words, would this drainage system work or am I missing something.
Supporting data provided after the photos.

Plumbing by davidcmatt, on Flickr

Below are some photos of the rooms as they currently sit while awaiting plumbing. NOTE: The Loft Bathroom and the Master Bathroom Showers, Toilets and Lavs are directly above each other.

Master Bathroom (suspended concrete floor over basement)
IMG_8348 by davidcmatt, on Flickr

Master Bathroom
IMG_8349 by davidcmatt, on Flickr

Master Bathroom
IMG_8354 by davidcmatt, on Flickr

Master Bathroom
IMG_8358 by davidcmatt, on Flickr

Master Bathroom from below
IMG_8329 by davidcmatt, on Flickr

Loft Bathroom
IMG_8366 by davidcmatt, on Flickr

Loft Bathroom from below
IMG_8364 by davidcmatt, on Flickr

Like a lot of the folks around this forum, I am working on a homestead for my family and trying to do some good along the way.

We are building a small (1000 sqft) home in SE Michigan. My sons are currently attending the local government schools and I am trying to encourage some of the kids to take up the trades. If they don't like the trades, it is much easier to pay for nursing school working as an electrician than it is working at McDonalds.

My goal is to install rough plumbing that works and that the local Department of Making Me Sad, will sign off on.
Hopefully we can stain a few students purple in the process.

HOUSE SPECIFICS:
1040 sqft (980 sqft interior)
2.5 Baths (Laundry Box in Master Bath)
Kitchen
Well/Septic (located to the right of the photos)
Insulated Concrete Form (ICF) wall
Structural Insulated Panel (SIP) roof
Suspended concrete 1st floor over walkout basement
HVAC will be a Mini-Split Heat Pump
Macomb County, Michigan
Plumbing Code: House is under Michigan Residential Code 2009 (I believe IPC 2009 is incorporated)

Sincerely,

Dave

PLEASE NOTE: I've tried hiring a local plumber and still will if one becomes available. Everyone is "swamped" and won't take on a small home like mine. The only ones that are interested are asking $7,000+ to rough the 1000 sqft home. I did have a local plumber that was going to help on an hourly basis, but he is having a family situation and hasn't been able to start.
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Offline Davew223

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Re: Rough Plumbing sanity check with my small ICF/SIP home in SE Michigan
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2017, 09:01:02 AM »
Can't really talk about the plumbing, I'm not a plumber, but there are some other things I am seeing.  First you need to get the rest of your framing in before you rough in your pipes and electric.  I'm seeing missing T's and deadwood, the sheetrock needs to be supported on all sides and you don't want to be trying to piece all that in after the stacks and wires are in the way.  The shower pan blocking is missing, we used to use 2X10 PT for that.  The unistrut is upside down if you intended to use it to hang anything, the open side of the "U" goes down and your threaded rod attaches to the channel nut which hangs inside the "U."  The 12-2 Romex in the basement ceiling looks like it is spanning to far without being supported and it needs to go through a grommet or conduit when it passes through the sheet steel that is under the concrete.  It looks like you have used ICF's for the exterior walls.  While these have great advantages in structure and insulation, they make it a bitch to add any electrical in the future so make sure you have plenty of receptacles on those walls.  ICF's also create a very "tight" house so you will need to think about providing ventilation, especially if you use any combustible fuels and make sure you have CO detectors along with the smokes.

Don't rely on codes and the "Department of Making Me Sad" inspectors.  Codes are not a "how to"  they are a bare minimum standard for safety and, for the most part, have nothing to do with function.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2017, 09:08:10 AM by Davew223 »

Offline daveinmichigan

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Re: Rough Plumbing sanity check with my small ICF/SIP home in SE Michigan
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2017, 11:24:59 AM »
Hi Davew223,

Thanks for responding. It is funny, when you spend so much time working on something that you eventually start looking right through things and it is great to have another set of eyes to notice stuff.

Quote
First you need to get the rest of your framing in before you rough in your pipes and electric.
 
I may be doing this backwards, but I am hoping to figure out where the plumbing vents have to go and then add the rest of the blocking. I believe all the walls involved with the plumbing and electrical are non load bearing and are simply partitions that were overbuilt.

Quote
I'm seeing missing T's and deadwood, the sheetrock needs to be supported on all sides and you don't want to be trying to piece all that in after the stacks and wires are in the way.
I know I must need to add these because I don't even know what missing Ts and deadwood are, I feel some more popcorn and YouTube tonight.

Quote
The shower pan blocking is missing, we used to use 2X10 PT for that.
Good catch, I had temporarily remove the blocking from the 1st floor shower to try to figure out how to fit that 4" PVC in the wall for the heat recovery ventilator. Once I get that big boy in place I am going to have to figure out a way to do the blocking on that wall. It looks like I am going to have to do some furring for the loft shower. I am planning on a 30"x60" acrylic base and I probably tile the walls and ceiling in the shower spaces.

Quote
The unistrut is upside down if you intended to use it to hang anything, the open side of the "U" goes down and your threaded rod attaches to the channel nut which hangs inside the "U."
I should have moved those before taking the photo, I was so busy looking at the plumbing holes that I didn't even notice the stuff being stored in the joists. All the open space in those joist just seems to invite things to store themselves there.

Quote
The 12-2 Romex in the basement ceiling looks like it is spanning to far without being supported and it needs to go through a grommet or conduit when it passes through the sheet steel that is under the concrete.
Thank you for that one. I will workout a support for the wire between the joists. I think Ive seen it done with a tray and unistrut. The cable is sound to the top cord of the joist where they run parallel each other. I used 3/4" up to 2" electrical conduit where the cable penetrates the floor from above.

Quote
It looks like you have used ICF's for the exterior walls.  While these have great advantages in structure and insulation, they make it a bitch to add any electrical in the future so make sure you have plenty of receptacles on those walls.
 
Another good point. Once I started melting wire chases, I went kinda crazy (perhaps the styrene fumes) and added outlets all over the place. I based on your recommendation, I will add some more before roughing the main floor electrical.

Quote
ICF's also create a very "tight" house so you will need to think about providing ventilation, especially if you use any combustible fuels and make sure you have CO detectors along with the smokes.

The current plan is electric only but I will still put in CO detectors because the inspectors think they are required even IF i don't have and fuel burning appliances. I figure I should pick my battles and just go with them and add them. It looks like they are pretty inexpensive anyway. We are installing a heat recovery ventilator and having it do double duty by drawing the stale air from the bathrooms. That way it gets to double as our bathroom fan.


Quote
Don't rely on codes and the "Department of Making Me Sad" inspectors.  Codes are not a "how to"  they are a bare minimum standard for safety and, for the most part, have nothing to do with function.
Roger that.

Thank you again for the help. I'll continue to add photos as we progress. I know I like to watch other peoples projects, perhaps some of the other TSPers will enjoy watching mine. Now if only a plumber would stumble across this post....
Money permits you to obtain for your goods and your labor that which they are worth to the men who buy them, but no more.

Offline FreeThinker

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Re: Rough Plumbing sanity check with my small ICF/SIP home in SE Michigan
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2017, 12:21:34 PM »
Looks and sounds like a great home.  Built ICF with a raised concrete slab "up north" from you about 11 years ago, we're using the LP I-joists and metal poles under a 4x10 wood billet beam for support of the upper level floor - it was cheapest at the time, but think I like your solution better.  Understand your frustration with the building codes/inspectors, been there.  As Davew223 mentioned they often don't make much sense.  I had to have a 4" diameter hole through the forms (per code) to allow for outside air as the ICF construction is so tight.  In their defense however, block off too much of that vent and it's impossible to get a draft up the chimney of the woodburner.

Anyway - not a plumber nor an electrician, just had to comment on your great looking place and congratulate you on the intelligence and wisdom shown in deciding to build ICF ( ;) ), so much for the prepper to love about ICF.   Looking forward to the updates.

Offline Chris Gilliam

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Re: Rough Plumbing sanity check with my small ICF/SIP home in SE Michigan
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2017, 03:08:44 PM »
The plumbing layout looks good from what I can tell. That hole in the top plate looks big for a 3" pipe....
I have a few plumbing videos on my YouTube channel, esp one that will help you with you Tub/Shower install, but stack outs vary so much I never bothered to put up a video about it.
We're swamped down here too, and I'm sick of it. Government takes everything I earn, so I'm about to shut down and go camping. Screw'em.

Offline never_retreat

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Re: Rough Plumbing sanity check with my small ICF/SIP home in SE Michigan
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2017, 08:41:14 PM »
Not an expert but I'm assuming your running 3" up to the second floor then picking up the other vents in the attic you may need to go up to 4" for the final vent size. I don't know why I'm thinking that for some reason. I don't see a vent over at the kitchen sink.
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Offline daveinmichigan

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Re: Rough Plumbing sanity check with my small ICF/SIP home in SE Michigan
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2017, 12:10:35 PM »
The plumbing layout looks good from what I can tell. That hole in the top plate looks big for a 3" pipe....
I have a few plumbing videos on my YouTube channel, esp one that will help you with you Tub/Shower install, but stack outs vary so much I never bothered to put up a video about it.
We're swamped down here too, and I'm sick of it. Government takes everything I earn, so I'm about to shut down and go camping. Screw'em.

Hi Chris, thanks for helping.

Getting the drainage where it needs to go seems kinda logical, but all the venting code stuff is driving me nuts!

I will watch your Tub/Shower video tonight. I tried to watch it last night, but ended up watching a bunch of the trapping videos instead. Hopefully I can do my "homework" and watch the tub/shower video and avoid getting sucked (...squirrel) into watching more trapping.

The crazy thing about plumbing is that there appears to be about ten different ways to do everything and about two will apiece my local bureaucrats. I need to figure out which two these guys will accept so they pass it on inspection.


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Offline daveinmichigan

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Re: Rough Plumbing sanity check with my small ICF/SIP home in SE Michigan
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2017, 12:15:45 PM »
Not an expert but I'm assuming your running 3" up to the second floor then picking up the other vents in the attic you may need to go up to 4" for the final vent size. I don't know why I'm thinking that for some reason. I don't see a vent over at the kitchen sink.

You are exactly right. I plan on running one 3" through the crazy 12" thick SIP roof and using air admittance valves on the kitchen sink and the 1/2 bath lavatory.

I didn't realize that i need to add the 2 or 3 additional vents and have them connect to the main vent before exiting the building. I was just kinda thinking about the plumbing like a "poop waterslide" until a friend asked me about where my vents were going. UGH.
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Offline never_retreat

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Re: Rough Plumbing sanity check with my small ICF/SIP home in SE Michigan
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2017, 09:16:05 PM »
I don't think they allow the air valves unless there is no other way to do a vent. Like on an island.
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Offline daveinmichigan

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Re: Rough Plumbing sanity check with my small ICF/SIP home in SE Michigan
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2017, 06:16:56 AM »
I talked to the Wizard of Oz/Building Official and they told me that I can use the air admittance valves as long as my main stack goes clear thru to the sky. I was afraid I was going to have to do loop venting, but thankfully this one seems to go in my favor. The fewer the number of holes in my roof the better.
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Offline Chris Gilliam

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Re: Rough Plumbing sanity check with my small ICF/SIP home in SE Michigan
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2017, 01:09:45 PM »
I forgot to mention, sometimes you can bring use a 3" to catch a lav or sink drain and not need an AAV. You can do this by putting a 3" x 1 1/2" tee either in the wall, or in the cabinet under the sink, either cap the top of the tee, or make it into a clean out. If you put it in the wall the inspector that does the final has no way of knowing that it is not tied in to the vents, so he won't make you use an AAV, even in places where they require them. Works fine, done tons of them this way.