Author Topic: retrofitting a small kitchenette/bathroom into a porch  (Read 10088 times)

Offline mountainmoma

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retrofitting a small kitchenette/bathroom into a porch
« on: July 13, 2015, 12:19:15 AM »
This was a 9'x9' open porch on cement slab. My oldest was staying in the large studio room off this porch after college graduation, and thought, it would be nice to have that studio just be a stand alone apartment. That was the genesis of this project. How to make this Porch entryway to the studio into a kitchen/bathroom so it could be an independent unit from the main house. She and I planned it all out, and did alot on it, then she moved away and got married and it stayed unfinished, until now. 9x9 feet, with it also being the studio apartment entry, is not alot of room. We took some inspiration from the tiny house movement, and trailers and such. The basic layout, roof penetrations, exterior wall, door, plumbing, electric, insulation, window, skylight, kitchen tiling was done before she left. We limped along and finished installing the kitchen cabinets she had picked out and painted. Then I got busy and stopped. But, we now see that we need to finish it and rent it out. Kitchen is mostly done, but the bathroom is the huge holdup. Bathroom is framed out as a 3x5 ft little room in one corner. No walls or door yet.


This is the bathroom, shower plumbing to the right, toilet plumbing to the left


Directly to the right of the bathroom, is this half of the kitchenette. There is a piece of granite countertop that needs to be glued to that plywood counter base, and then the big thing is figuring out how to hang the range fan (the wire hanging out of the wall is for the fan to ventilate the range. We have the dimuative range fan, but there are no pre-made fan - cabinets that are only 20" wide. There is also a roof vent etc.. in the roof/ceiling, so I was going to maybe just make a shelf, but there are some broken cabinet pieces laying around, so may try making a little box cabinet with its top level with the wall cabinet next to the stove, but that would be just 9 inches high, and there are no matching cabinet doors that size....


Other side of the kitchenette. This picture was taken before I had the plumber out, now the water input pipes under the sink have been lowered so that the sink can fit. This is where the Ikea farmhouse ceramic sink is going once we find a faucet we like. Idealy a wall shelf will be put in on the wall to the left to get the microwave up, and likely a slightly taller refrig will go in as this one recently broke. Window needs trim, and plywood needs to be cut for countertop base, etc...


This is a tricky spot, this is over and to the left of the refrigerator. This is a wall transition between two divergent types of walls. The dark brown is earthen. Half of the studio room is a half circle and it was made with a natural building technique called Cob. The other half of the room used to be the back half of a tandem 2 car garage, and this part of the room has the walls infilled with light straw clay. The entire inside of the studio room, over both straw and earthen walls is earth plastered and then has a white clay/mica wash. It was never originally intended to have a kitchen here. This one small wall of the kitchen bumps up to the natural building methods, the part that is straw/clay infill I have covered on the kitchen side with exterior grade plywood, and painted the plywood, this is on the left of the picture. This will be ok as it is just one side of the straw. But, the earthen walls cannot be covered with this type of thing and must stay breathable on both sides. This is a small part, the bottom of which is covered by the fridge anyways. The plan is to do a lyme plaster/wash on this earthen section


Overview of the entire kitchenette from the studio thru the studio doorway. The area straight ahead is NOT part of this aprtment, it is the back porch for the main house. That door will be closed and locked when this is rented. Likely will temporary wall in the door with a chalkboard/bulletin board. The entry to this studio apartment is the open doorway to the left.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2015, 12:43:36 AM by mountainmoma »

Offline mountainmoma

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Re: retrofitting a small kitchenette/bathroom into a porch
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2015, 09:56:15 PM »


The sink is set temporarily in its spot to check if its supports are in the correct spot and height of adjacent countertop



Same with the toilet, it is easier to visualize with it in place. So now we see that we want it moved as far as we can against the far wall, as shown, although my son sat on it today and says we need to pull it back an inch or two towards the middle. So, we see we realy want the doorway in the middle, so we will adjust framing once we purchase the door, and now we know we want a regular 24" door  and not a pocket door. Whish we had one more foot of length to the bathroom, but we dont. It will be cool tho.

Offline mountainmoma

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Re: retrofitting a small kitchenette/bathroom into a porch
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2015, 01:29:36 AM »


The plumber moved the water pipes down, so then I installed the metal brakets that hold the sink base together, and I repaired the drywall. We then cut and installed plywood on the countertop next to the sink, and glued down the granite. We cut little wood strips to raise the edges of the sink base level with the granite, and glued down for 24 hours with wood glue. Seems to hold fine


My dd caulking the edge, then we set the sink in and caulked the outer 2 edges also. You can see that last week I also installed the drawer and cabinet doors on this cabinet


You can kind of get a glimpse of the new refrigerator/freezer to the left of the sink, not under counter sized, but it is under window sized and should be low enough for a dish drainer or such. Previous smaller refrigerator I gave to the widow around the corner for her room, her house is multilevel. We spent alot of time unsuccessfully trying to screw in the under sink brackets this morning.

Offline chad

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Re: retrofitting a small kitchenette/bathroom into a porch
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2015, 10:16:19 AM »
Looks good MM

Offline mountainmoma

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Re: retrofitting a small kitchenette/bathroom into a porch
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2015, 09:51:39 AM »
Had the plumber out Sunday. I fell blest to have found this one, first, it is darn near impossible to get any good plumber to come up here on the mountain. I searched for 3 months last spring, realy put a damper on this project. This guy lives within a couple miles of here, he is good, he likes helping us on our DYI and respects our efforts -- so much so that he is not charging his normal rate that he makes for his boss m-fr, 9-5. I am thankful.


We were prepped and ready for him on Sunday. We had decided to change the toilet location, and had measured and checked and my daughter had cut out the old pipes for toilet/shower drain and we had verified our idea would work. So, toilet waste pipe was moved over 6" or more towards the far wall. Shower drain pipe rerouted to go around it.


This toilet moving is to give room for a very teeny sink on the wall next to the toilet. The plumber said he could "wet Vent" the drain for this little sink, which saved alot of plumbing time and money -- The sink is cold water only, so will get water from the cold water input for the toilet tank.


He was able to connect sink plumbing since we were ready for it and had the parts


And, he connected water in/out to the electric hot water heater. This is a 20 gallon tank which sits under the kitchen window, on a cement pad outside.

Offline Morning Sunshine

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Re: retrofitting a small kitchenette/bathroom into a porch
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2015, 10:10:01 AM »
nicely done Mountain mama

Offline mountainmoma

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Re: retrofitting a small kitchenette/bathroom into a porch
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2016, 01:04:48 AM »
I forgot to update this. More work has been done on the bathroom. I have had a few medical issues/setbacks since the fall and tried to hire more of this out, with limited success. The tile contractor that commited to it totally flaked, and other attempts to find a new one went nowhere, so we resigned to doing it ourselves.



We managed to get a handyman to do blocking and framing updates and get the subfloor there.



My friends husband came over and framed the doorway and hung the cement backer board, even though I specifically asked him to please leave room between the sheets, 1/16-1/8 inch, well, he didnt. And so, cross your fingers on expansion issues. Some had room, some didnt.



Before he did that, my dd and I redid insulation on the larger back wall. That wall of the shower/bathroom has my pantry on the other side, in other words it is a very cold room on the other side, and this side is the hot shower. I was concerned about condensation issues in the wall with the temperature difference, it is like an outside wall. I lost one tiler not coming out over my asking him how the shower wall he was suggesting he construct was going to do with this wall. He was going to put on drywall and then float a base on that to tile. There is no vapor barrier against the "cold wall" on the other side of what was fiberglass batting in the wall.  We took out the fiberglass bats and cut rigid insulation blocks and pressed them against the back of the "cold wall" and foamed them in with great stuff expanding foam. This is an effective technique I have used in non-vented shallow ceilings, and keeps condensation from forming on the inside of the cold surface (underside of roof deck or back of wall). I know I took other pictures, but it was on her phone, so likely gone. that was January, winter break from school...My dd has been very, very busy with an overly full load of classes. But, now it is spring break week !! So.....



Since we are now doing this ourselves, I decided to do a cement backer board walls, mud floor and the whole thing coated with red guard for water proofing. I bought a special drain, Kerdi type, that is meant to use with paint on membrane waterproofing. This means no pre-slope and then slope, just one.  Here is the tar paper to give a  disconnect from teh plywood subfloor, and then expanded metal lathe. The toilet flange is just set in there, not glued yet to hold space for it.



Here is the floor now done with mud. And, I have pulled out the toilet flange. And there was some small amount of collapse right at the hole, but should be fine. There is enough  close enough to the flange. This is a difficulty of this teeny "tiny house" style bathroom. The whole thing is 3'x5', so the area in front of the  toilet is the shower. One  tip from the contractor who ran out of time who had commited to this, was that the whole bathroom floor needed to be the shower pan, not just in fron of the toilet, to ensure no future water pooling or issues. The plumber has said this small amount of slope, 1/4" per ft, will be fine for him setting the toilet. His complication for me though, is that he wants to set the toilet flange AFTER I have tiled. But, the toilet flange is in the shower pan -- so, it is complicated.

We now need to let this all dry and cure a bit, and then will need to redgaurd. I know one or two of you have used red guard, if you have any tips for us, let me know. Today on the hardware store advice, we bought a rough roller to roll it on



« Last Edit: March 29, 2016, 01:26:55 AM by mountainmoma »

Offline Carl

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Re: retrofitting a small kitchenette/bathroom into a porch
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2016, 07:23:04 AM »
+1 MM for an innovative project ...off to a great start and a shower pan including the toilet allows for free flow cleaning too.. ;D

Offline mountainmoma

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Re: retrofitting a small kitchenette/bathroom into a porch
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2016, 01:18:04 PM »
Yesterday, my dd and her new boy friend did 2 coats of red guard on the shower/bathroom. I researched, etc... and gave direction. It took A LOT longer than we thought it would. Maybe 3 hours for the first coat ?  2nd coat went alot faster. My dd thinks she may want to do a 3rd layer on the shower floor, as it should be thicker and she thinks it is a little light. Also, the shower pan was a bit rough, I fell right when I had put it in and didnt get back to smooth. So, I think she has a point and I will let her do a third coat on the floor. Will try and have her take a picture when she does, it is the red room right now.

Offline Stwood

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Re: retrofitting a small kitchenette/bathroom into a porch
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2016, 10:08:19 PM »
Looks like you have yourhandsfull on that project. You are coming along though. Thumbs up

Offline mountainmoma

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Re: retrofitting a small kitchenette/bathroom into a porch
« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2016, 10:53:16 AM »






SO, she has been using the kitchen for 2 weeks now. Still no range hood installed. But we got on cabinet doors and door hardware, trimmed around 2 doors, which is a pain because of needing to shim. Wood around window in opening was a pain, had to use a planer ansanding to make it even with wall to then trim. We also caulked changes of plane where cracks were too big, and put on outlet covers. And had to buy oversized ones as the drywall installer was sloppy there too.

Propane to stove was a  day 2 hardware store runs, and then calling someone stronger to tighten better.

But, it has proved very usable. She is here cooking dinner for a few friends.

Offline mountainmoma

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Re: retrofitting a small kitchenette/bathroom into a porch
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2016, 10:58:50 PM »
We have slowly been working on the bathroom. floor is tiled and grouted, poor picture as it has my shadow, wrong time of day. The tile is little white hexagons with a light grey grout


Starting on wall tile today. It was hot and it took me a while to line things up and my daughter had made 2 batches of thinset, alot of which had to be thrown out. But, it is a start, this picture is more true to color, I think.


Offline mountainmoma

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Re: retrofitting a small kitchenette/bathroom into a porch
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2016, 11:28:00 PM »


A neighbor who is a cabintry maker finally made the shelf for the rangehood over the stove. It was a surprise in that I didnt give him any spec's, seems to fit in well. So, my dd and I found the studs, got the level, figured out where to put screws that wouldnt show, etc.... spend all this time mounting it, and ..... he made the holes for the fan exhaust too small, likely they are the diameter of the range hood fan collar, but not the duct. Now, we wait for him to get back from vacation and I will see if he can leave it in place and do something.... I am actually thankful he took the time to make us something, and know he will route it out or soemthing. Our jobs are too small for professionals out here, so always happy to be able to hire someone.





So, more tile has been done. We are slow, but happy how it is turning out. This is taking longer than any tiling I have ever done before. The 2nds we got to tile with have needed alot of sorting. Glass tile of this type ( see thru in many areas) needs each piece back buttered. It is on a wall, and then small tiles over a large area. It has been so hot, we usually cannot finish one batch of thinset before it is getting too hard, and have to toss alot of it. Then we had to order more, and wait for that to come in. Not to mention that I am just slow anyways. But, we are happy in how it is looking.





Today, after doing our one thinset batches worth of tiling, we decided to put the door on the bathroom. I have never hung a door before, although I have seen it done. My daughter even went to the hardware store and bought a plumb-bob ( I saw this on this old house) So, we spent along time on this, we made sure to make the hinge side of the pre-hung door plumb as far as being not too much left or right, and moved on to the top and other side. We lined the inner door frame up to the inside wall and thought all was good. Nope, door is off. Our theory is that it is not plumb in the forward-back plane. But, we were too tired to try anything more today. Luckily, it is put on with those realy skinny little screws that have no screw head, so the frame can come off and it should be fine to re-do. Even better, I believe my friends husbad, who does construction for a living, is going to come over tomorrow and do this. He is too busy, but I walked over and asked him in person this evening, explaining how we tried and were stuck.

These 2 pictures also give a new angle to the project, I am standing with my back to the exterior door to the kitchen. You can see the stove area in relation to the bathroom from this view.

I have been told this is a fancy door, but it was in the boneyard of the door store, as was the badroom door, so they were each as low priced as the used ones they sell at the habitat for humanity re-sale store. The Exterior door is a used one, and while I like the style, shows its age. The difficult glass tile is because the manufacturer is local-ish, and last summer they decided to close down their bone yard and had a liquidation sale. We paid very little for all of it, but we do have to sort alot and file a bit
« Last Edit: August 03, 2016, 11:39:14 PM by mountainmoma »

Offline mountainmoma

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Re: retrofitting a small kitchenette/bathroom into a porch
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2016, 12:30:34 AM »
Bathroom door is now good. Most of our work was good, esp the hinge side of the door. He mostly messed with it patiently, seeing where it seemed to catch and little adjustments. SO, our work was not time wasted, we just stopped too soon.

If anyone actually was looking at the pictures in the last post, yes, the framing on that outer wall of the bathroom, the door wall, has the studs on edge, to keep the wall thin, as space is so tight. This means we had that door pre-hung on a casing that was cut down to 2 1/2 inches wide, so just past the door stops. Another way this can be done is to use surface hinges on the door and wall, which likely would have been structurally better, and then the inside door trim could just be installed to imping into the doorway and act as the door stop. These kinds of decisions are part of why my projects take so long. having to decide on best course of action
« Last Edit: August 06, 2016, 12:40:54 AM by mountainmoma »

Offline mountainmoma

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Re: retrofitting a small kitchenette/bathroom into a porch
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2016, 10:11:06 PM »


SO, grouting a bit now. Much, much harder than I remember this being ! One thing may have been that she dumped a bit if the grout powder on the ground instead of the bucket.... the other is that the tile is "pillow edged" so if you run the float over the surface, you get too much left between the tiles, it is left too high and thus also too wide ! And, a TON of excess was all over.

If you dont get too close, it looks real nice. I scrubbed too much off inbetween the tiles on the ceiling, but wont matter up there anyways. Open for all advice at this point on how to do it faster, and nicer when we do the main walls ...




Offline mountainmoma

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Re: retrofitting a small kitchenette/bathroom into a porch
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2017, 10:30:12 PM »
We finished grouting last Sept., but then did no more as she had a full course load at school. Grouting was horrid with the non-sanded grout. I now think I know why, we should have had much smaller grout lines. So, remember that if you do pillowedge, uneven glass tile, teeny grout lines --

School is still out for winter break, so work is on again. Grout was sealed in the sunny days right before new years.

Then, we took off the door, and she put on a first layer of half marine varnish half paint thinner, and that is dried, but then we have gotten into enourmous never ending rainstorms, so cannot finish the door with it so  humid.



light/fan fixture was finished installed, not easy as the box was set in too much, wasnt sticking out as much as it should, so built in bolt did not reach. In now.



Last week she cut drywall for outer wall, and I nailed it up. Today, she taped and mudded. She has never done this before, turning out good so far, we are slow of course. Drywall was measured carefully and hand cut with a drywall keyhole hand saw.

If you go thru that doorway and turn left, you see this :



Today we were brave and worked on drilling mounting holes thru the glass tile. Takes a long time per hole. We put up the sink mounting brackets ( there is very extensive wood blocking behind the tile for screws to go into). We set the sink there, but it is not right yet. The blue tape to the right and below is to mark where the toilet edge is going to be. This is a very short toilet back, shortest I have ever seen, it is shorter out from the wall too.



These are the brackets that came with the sink. I used wood screws, and no padding, so cant get it tight enough. May need tips -- if anyone has done this !

I think I will take off the brackets and see if they can be bent on top to have the top edge hit the ceramic first. I think I want to see if I can get skinny lag bolts to replace the wood screws so I can hand tighten. And, I think I want to put a rubber washer for each behind the bracket, agaisnt the tile. I did crack one tile a bit on tightening the screws as I was using the drill. Small crack, not a big deal.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2017, 10:38:49 PM by mountainmoma »

Offline Stwood

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Re: retrofitting a small kitchenette/bathroom into a porch
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2017, 10:48:55 PM »
MM, check out hangar bolts.

https://www.google.com/search?q=hangar+bolts&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

One end you can go deep into the wood support. Then use a washer and nut on your bracket. may have to drill your bracket hole bigger. I can't tell what size you have there.


Oh and use stainless steel if you can get them.

Offline mountainmoma

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Re: retrofitting a small kitchenette/bathroom into a porch
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2017, 10:56:26 PM »
MM, check out hangar bolts.

https://www.google.com/search?q=hangar+bolts&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

One end you can go deep into the wood support. Then use a washer and nut on your bracket. may have to drill your bracket hole bigger. I can't tell what size you have there.


Oh and use stainless steel if you can get them.

Thanks ! I will look for this when I go to the hardware store tomorrow, I will be in the larger town for a dentist appt and can go by home depot. I cannot make the holes in the glass tile larger, as they are so close together. But, the holes in the glass tile are larger than the current wood screws. How does a double sided bolt like this get installed ?

We cant even figure our how such bracket could ever work, doesnt seem like it could ever hold the sink as steadily as we would like, but we will see. The sink cam with these brackets and a couple short screws...

Offline Stwood

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Re: retrofitting a small kitchenette/bathroom into a porch
« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2017, 08:46:38 AM »
Put 2 nuts on the outward side and jam (tighten) them together with 2 wrenches. This gives you a head, making it a bolt. Insert it into the wall with a wrench then. Then take 2 wrenches again and loosen and remove both nuts.

Edit...I'll throw a pic up afterwhile.

Buy more nuts than hangar bolts. Just a couple extra will do

Offline mountainmoma

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Re: retrofitting a small kitchenette/bathroom into a porch
« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2017, 06:58:25 PM »
My dd was home and I borrowed her cell phone for the camera for a few minutes, so updates photos finally.



Stove fan installed and connected



drywall primed and painted on outside of bathroom



Bathroom door, lots of marine varnish and put back up



over the door hooks for bathtowels, curtain in shower mode



Inside of shower stall, curtain is pulled closed on curtain rod, and corner of curtain gets set on the hook on the wall. The shower area is about 3ft by 3ft



In non shower mode, unhook that corner, draw curtain open, and hook that corner to hook on the other wall



which leaves that room for leg room in front of the toilet



other half of the bathroom, toilet works well, keeping up caulk at toilet base is the weak point that must not be let go



Offline Stwood

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Re: retrofitting a small kitchenette/bathroom into a porch
« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2017, 07:51:08 PM »
 8)

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Re: retrofitting a small kitchenette/bathroom into a porch
« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2017, 07:59:45 PM »
That looks really darn cute!!

Cedar

Offline mountainmoma

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Re: retrofitting a small kitchenette/bathroom into a porch
« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2017, 10:36:30 PM »
It realy does feel spacious, it is 3ft x 5ft total. We are extremely slow, as I cant do much anymore by myself. My daughter is using it as is, but we still have the top half of the back wall to finish up, mirror over sink and cabinet above the toilet still to go, not to mention door stops and trim and door knob --

Offline mountainmoma

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Re: retrofitting a small kitchenette/bathroom into a porch
« Reply #23 on: May 31, 2017, 12:52:23 AM »


I am finally posting a photo of the sink done -- had to have the plumber get that drain in, I couldn't figure out how, he did it by having the vertical drop make a turn out away from the wall before the trap and horizontal to the wall.



This is what we have been working on this week, put in dry wall, joint compound, sad, primer, paint, put up light and mirror. But, the time consuming part was figuring out what could fit, and a light that not only fit but would be sealed up for this small, damp room, and how to install esp. since an electrical connector box could not be placed behind the light due to the plumbing vent pipe. there is a box to the upper left, above the light and right outside of the photo that could be nailed to the corner stud of the room. Then, the light is light weight enough that it could be held onto the drywall with the plastic anchors/screws. Ikea for the LED light and mirror.

The spot unfinished on the wall, above the toilet, is reserved for a cabinet. A cabinet maker I know is supposed to make it, but it is a small job for him, so eventually it will show up. the cabinet will be recessed into the wall, and then come out another 4 inches or so, so there will be some bathrom storage. He sent away for some special piece of plywood to take the damp and will maybe some weather strip or something to keep steam out of it. There is quite a bit of distance between the cabinet bottom and the realy short toilet, so we are going to mount a towel bar on the underside of the cabinet for hand towel.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2017, 01:00:46 AM by mountainmoma »

Offline mountainmoma

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Re: retrofitting a small kitchenette/bathroom into a porch
« Reply #24 on: June 02, 2017, 01:30:46 AM »
Thought I could go ahead and show the rest of the studio, the part existing for years that we have been adding the kitchen and bath onto. I think this main room is about 18ft long by 14 ft or so wide.



This is the view walking into the room from the kitchen





The round part of the room is Cob building, so thick, mud walls, like making a coiled pot. Handstacked rock foundation, a bit below grade on that side, which is why we are beefing up the drainage right now. Even though it has never flooded, it was barely damp on the floor from high water table ( 110 inches of rain over 4 months), rock wall wasnt damp at all. Besides french drain, there is drylock painted onto the outside of the rock wall that is below grade.



The other walls are infilled with light straw clay, but only 4 inches thick, and volunteer labor from a work party years ago. This is still causing me grief on that wall behind the bed as the straw was not tamped well enough and so not hard enough behind the earth plaster. So, I will beef it up soon....



And this is full circle looking back at the door into the kitchen


Offline Stwood

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Re: retrofitting a small kitchenette/bathroom into a porch
« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2017, 09:59:36 PM »
 8)

Offline mountainmoma

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Re: retrofitting a small kitchenette/bathroom into a porch
« Reply #26 on: June 22, 2017, 08:11:33 PM »


Front entrance to the Kitchen. Little redwood porch was just done, and the short shed under the kitchen window, which contains the washing machine ( A Danby 1.7cuft, connected just to cold and grey watered output, grey water goes under the porch) and a 20 gallon electric water heater. The propane tank is for the kitchen stove. Trim was just put on the door and window. Trim on shed still needs paint, and eventually the shed will get a hinged roof.

Yes, tiny kitchen has an operable skylight, it gets hot here, have to vent at night. And, yes, that cob studio is about 16 or 17 years old, and still has never had exterior plaster, maybe some day.

We need to move all that excess dirt too.....