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Survivalism & Self Sufficiency Topics => Homesteading and Self Reliant Living => Topic started by: Going Galt on November 11, 2009, 04:29:17 PM

Title: Want to pump water very long distance from brook
Post by: Going Galt on November 11, 2009, 04:29:17 PM
Some of you may have seen from other posts that I bought some off grid unimproved land, and that I'm hoping to plant some apples and other permanent crops there.  I do not live on this land and will only be there occasionally for now.  So, I need to come up with a reasonable way to water plants when I'm not there.  There is no electricity, no well and not yet any cleared building site.  There is a brook, and depending on where the brook is relative to where I would plant things -- the vertical rise ranges from 50-100 feet, and the distance would be 700 to 2700 feet (with 2700 feet being the most reliable water supply as the 700 foot distance to the brook is probably going to be intermittent).

Someone else suggested drip irrigation from 55 gallon drums.  This sounds like a good idea, if I can only figure out a way to fill them.  Carrying that much water through thick brush is unrealistic, and even if I managed to clear a path it'd still be way too much effort.

So, I have to pump it.  It would be acceptable if I only filled them by running a generator to power a pump for a little while when I'm there, then let the drums drain out slowly on their own when I'm away.  Better would be some kind of solar powered thing that slowly pumps every so often every day (it is quieter and wouldn't have the risk of me not making my scheduled visit in time.)

Is this even possible?  Are there affordable ways to pump water that far?  If so, then I at least have a starting point and can then figure out if I want to power it temporarily with a generator, or use solar.


Title: Re: Want to pump water very long distance from brook
Post by: Going Galt on November 11, 2009, 04:39:02 PM
Actually I wouldn't need a generator at all if the pump were already gas powered.  However, that would rule out solar and require that I bring the pump there each time I want to top off the drums.

Title: Re: Want to pump water very long distance from brook
Post by: Going Galt on November 11, 2009, 04:52:53 PM
Would this do it?

http://www.utilityfree.com/solar/waterpumping/slowpump.html (http://www.utilityfree.com/solar/waterpumping/slowpump.html)

Its $500, then I guess I'd need to buy the solar panel and of course all the hose.  (PE pipe?)

Title: Re: Want to pump water very long distance from brook
Post by: Cacinok on November 12, 2009, 08:09:14 AM
check this link]http://www.riferam.com/]link (http://www.riferam.com/), they sell a couple of pumps that might work for you.  i don't know of any purely mechanical pumps that will get the water as far or high as you need, the height is the main problem.   i'm not an expert, however, so there might be something out there.

a ram pump might get your lift close, but you need both flow and drop for it to work.

the sling pump on the site i linked will lift water 82' and it just needs flow to do it.  iirc, these are also called spiral pumps and have been attached to the side of water wheels.  it's basically a hose wrapped in a circle attached to something ridged, such as the water wheel.  there is a small funnel on the hose at the outermost end.  as the water wheel spins, the funnel gulps water and then air, then water.  as the wheel spins the water spirals towards the center.  w/ the constant air/water/air/water pattern the previously gulped water gets pushed up and you essentially have a pulsing water flow.  i don't recall the lifting distances, but it was pretty good.  i've seen videos on the web of one working, it was impressive.  

you may need to use a ram or spiral pump to get the water up to a holding tank and then use the solar pump to move it the rest of the way.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiral_pump (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiral_pump)

i wish i had a stream flowing through my property so i could experiment w/ this stuff.  (i think i might be a nerd)
Title: Re: Want to pump water very long distance from brook
Post by: Going Galt on November 12, 2009, 03:53:20 PM
Unfortunately, a ram pump won't work for me because I have neither flow (it trickles) nor drop.  All 1500 or so feet of brook that I own is pretty much at nearly the same level to itself... it probably goes down a few feet from one end to the other but you could never tell.  The flow does pick up near the end of it where two branches combine, but that is even further away (2700 feet) from where I want it.

I don't really want to do this, but the brook is not on the border and there is more land beyond it.  It might be possible to plant way back there, where the land would be at the same level as the brook.  I'm not sure how wet it is going to be though (apple trees don't like to swim in water), plus it'd be very far away and may require some clearing first.



Title: Re: Want to pump water very long distance from brook
Post by: Uncle Bob (he ain’t right) on November 12, 2009, 05:08:17 PM
A good friend of mine does this with a 6HP gasoline powered pump. They cost about $250 at farm supply stores. He uses old fire hoses to pump through. He obtains the old fire hose from differant fire departments after they don't pass their hydrotest. He has about a 60 foot lift with this setup.

Hope this helps
Title: Re: Want to pump water very long distance from brook
Post by: Going Galt on November 12, 2009, 06:20:30 PM
Do you happen to know any details about this gas powered pump? 

Interesting idea about the fire hose.  I had been wondering what kind of hose/pipe I'd need to run.  I was thinking of your usual black PE pipe, although that will be a chore to unroll and get to lie flat.  Plus, I hate trying to get those hose clamps to stay on PE pipe (and I need to be able to attach/detach the pump at least twice a season since I'm not leaving it for the winter).  If I could get a hose that is cheap, easy to roll and can be attached by screwing it onto a fitting -- that would be ideal.




Title: Re: Want to pump water very long distance from brook
Post by: Going Galt on November 12, 2009, 06:42:44 PM
Is this an example of the gas pump?

http://www.tractorsupply.com/agriculture-farming-ranching/transfer-pumps-tanks-parts/transfer-pumps/champion-5-5-hp-3-in-water-pump-2145000 (http://www.tractorsupply.com/agriculture-farming-ranching/transfer-pumps-tanks-parts/transfer-pumps/champion-5-5-hp-3-in-water-pump-2145000)

I'm not sure what "head size: 98 feet" means though.  Is that the vertical rise it can pump?

The price is right, but 264GPM is a wee bit high.  After I turn it on and run back to the end of the hose, there will be thousands of gallons all over the place. 


Title: Re: Want to pump water very long distance from brook
Post by: Cacinok on November 13, 2009, 03:00:24 AM
Unfortunately, a ram pump won't work for me because I have neither flow (it trickles) nor drop.  All 1500 or so feet of brook that I own is pretty much at nearly the same level to itself... it probably goes down a few feet from one end to the other but you could never tell.  The flow does pick up near the end of it where two branches combine, but that is even further away (2700 feet) from where I want it.

I don't really want to do this, but the brook is not on the border and there is more land beyond it.  It might be possible to plant way back there, where the land would be at the same level as the brook.  I'm not sure how wet it is going to be though (apple trees don't like to swim in water), plus it'd be very far away and may require some clearing first.





definitely hard to do w/o much of a flow or drop.  one interesting thing about the ram pump is that if there's a hill by your brook, you can create an artificial drop, but it kind of defeats the purpose - go down to go up.
Title: Re: Want to pump water very long distance from brook
Post by: Uncle Bob (he ain’t right) on November 13, 2009, 03:14:44 AM
Is this an example of the gas pump?

http://www.tractorsupply.com/agriculture-farming-ranching/transfer-pumps-tanks-parts/transfer-pumps/champion-5-5-hp-3-in-water-pump-2145000 (http://www.tractorsupply.com/agriculture-farming-ranching/transfer-pumps-tanks-parts/transfer-pumps/champion-5-5-hp-3-in-water-pump-2145000)

I'm not sure what "head size: 98 feet" means though.  Is that the vertical rise it can pump?

The price is right, but 264GPM is a wee bit high.  After I turn it on and run back to the end of the hose, there will be thousands of gallons all over the place. 



Title: Re: Want to pump water very long distance from brook
Post by: Uncle Bob (he ain’t right) on November 13, 2009, 03:24:13 AM
Is this an example of the gas pump?

http://www.tractorsupply.com/agriculture-farming-ranching/transfer-pumps-tanks-parts/transfer-pumps/champion-5-5-hp-3-in-water-pump-2145000 (http://www.tractorsupply.com/agriculture-farming-ranching/transfer-pumps-tanks-parts/transfer-pumps/champion-5-5-hp-3-in-water-pump-2145000)

I'm not sure what "head size: 98 feet" means though.  Is that the vertical rise it can pump?

The price is right, but 264GPM is a wee bit high.  After I turn it on and run back to the end of the hose, there will be thousands of gallons all over the place.  
The head is the lift it can do. And the flow is rated without restrictions. You also don't have to run them at full speed.

Title: Re: Want to pump water very long distance from brook
Post by: Going Galt on November 13, 2009, 03:24:34 PM
Is the max head affected at all by horizontal distance?  e.g. if head is 98 feet, will I still get up to 98 feet up with it even if it has to go 1000 feet horizontally in order to go up that high?  It seems like there would be more weight of water to push if the hose were longer.  But I was also thinking that I could do fine with a narrow hose, an inch or less, so there'd be less water to push.  Your typical 1.25" or 2" PE pipe would support way more flow than I could ever possibly need.

So, speed can be controlled, like a lawn mower's throttle typically has?



Title: Re: Want to pump water very long distance from brook
Post by: Jackncoke on November 13, 2009, 08:33:18 PM
Check out

 http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/pumps/ecatalog/N-bir/No-30?op=search (http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/pumps/ecatalog/N-bir/No-30?op=search)

It's where I work, and we carry about 300+ pages of pumps, plus like a gazillion other things. Don't pay attention to the price. If you find something you want, I'll try to get you the best price I can on it. I'm not a sales rep, and I don't get commission. I'm just trying to help a fellow forum member.

To answer your question...head is the total 'vertical rise' the pump has to push the fluid. Let's use your typical basement sump pump as an example. If you plumbing has to go up 5 ft, then exit your wall and drain straight out, or down hill...it has 5 ft of head. If the plumbing continues outside through, say a 100ft. garden hose, then you need to measure the how high the hose gets. This measurement gets added to your total head. An easy way to measure this additional height would be with string and a tape measure...

There's a few additional things to consider in your set up. You may want a screen to keep particles from destroying your impeller. It sounds like you won't need a continuous duty pump, so that will keep price down. The diameter of the plumbing is going to effect the flow of water like you pointed out. To control this, use a ball valve or something similar. If you have more specific questions, let me know.
Title: Re: Want to pump water very long distance from brook
Post by: Going Galt on November 14, 2009, 01:02:42 PM
Thanks for the Grainger link; I will have a look.

One thing I'll need is a hose or pipe.  The cheapest I've found so far is this plastic piping called "PEX".  Does anyone know anything about it?  HD sells 500 feet roll of 1/2" PEX pipe for $125, but I see it for even less online.   I just need to make sure it'll work and that there are fittings which let me connect and disconnect it from a pump (what nozzle does a typical pump have anyway?)


Title: Re: Want to pump water very long distance from brook
Post by: Jackncoke on November 14, 2009, 02:27:20 PM
I'm not familiar with the PEX piping. For your application, I think a normal garden hose would work fine. As far as fittings go, pumps are threaded in NPT (National Pipe Thread). Garden hose is not threaded the same, so you would need an adapter, usually just a few bucks.
Title: Re: Want to pump water very long distance from brook
Post by: “Mark” on November 16, 2009, 07:59:24 AM
How much rain do you get? An alternative to pumping water is to hold the water you do get in the ground. Look into using swales.
Title: Re: Want to pump water very long distance from brook
Post by: Cacinok on November 16, 2009, 08:50:10 AM
Thanks for the Grainger link; I will have a look.

One thing I'll need is a hose or pipe.  The cheapest I've found so far is this plastic piping called "PEX".  Does anyone know anything about it?  HD sells 500 feet roll of 1/2" PEX pipe for $125, but I see it for even less online.   I just need to make sure it'll work and that there are fittings which let me connect and disconnect it from a pump (what nozzle does a typical pump have anyway?)



PEX is primarily used for indoor plumbing.  i don't know how well it will hold up to sunlight and getting drug across the ground definitely check w/ the manufacturer.
Title: Re: Want to pump water very long distance from brook
Post by: Going Galt on November 16, 2009, 03:08:31 PM
How much rain do you get? An alternative to pumping water is to hold the water you do get in the ground. Look into using swales.

Like anywhere in the northeast, probably 40 inches a year.  All the low points on the property that would be a possible "swale" are also as far away as the brook is - and yes there are plenty of places where water just sits around, although they eventually all drain into the brook anyway.  I want to do most of my planting along the ridge of the hill, which is nearby where I will be building someday.

Title: Re: Want to pump water very long distance from brook
Post by: outoforder2day on November 18, 2009, 02:59:13 PM
PEX is primarily used for indoor plumbing.  i don't know how well it will hold up to sunlight and getting drug across the ground definitely check w/ the manufacturer.
PEX will degrade in the sun in a matter of months. Do not use it outdoors.
Title: Re: Want to pump water very long distance from brook
Post by: mxitman on November 18, 2009, 04:20:20 PM
You will need the black plastic pipe, it's rated for UV/outdoor use. I'm assuming your trying to do this for the lowest cost?

But this is what i would do if I were you. I would find the largest tank you can handle for the money and for transporting. Preferably one with a capped or small opening not a stock tank, but that could work for you. I would dig a hole right where your water is, so it runs into the tank filling it up. I would replace the cap or cover with a stainless steel mesh or pump basket, to keep the tank clear. Even a kitchen strainer basket would work. I would then add one of these for your pump;

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=1479 (http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=1479)
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=47906 (http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=47906)

or gas powered;
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=95976 (http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=95976)
http://cgi.ebay.com/Kenowa-Tools-Portable-Water-Pump-Gas-2-5-HP-249-Retail_W0QQitemZ120492774025QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item1c0dedd289 (http://cgi.ebay.com/Kenowa-Tools-Portable-Water-Pump-Gas-2-5-HP-249-Retail_W0QQitemZ120492774025QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item1c0dedd289)

Or this guy might have something that is hand powered or solar but will cost a bit more. I might even try the hand pump option UPC#2 . http://www.survivalunlimited.com/handwaterpumpdeep.htm (http://www.survivalunlimited.com/handwaterpumpdeep.htm)
Title: Re: Want to pump water very long distance from brook
Post by: “Mark” on November 18, 2009, 05:51:07 PM
My grandparents used black plastic piping. It lasted at least 20 years, and is probably still in use today. You do have to drain it in freezing weather.
Title: Re: Want to pump water very long distance from brook
Post by: Going Galt on November 18, 2009, 08:42:52 PM
The black PE piping is just a bit expensive and inflexible (it doesn't want to lay flat until you leave it out in the hot sun for a while).  It comes in 100 foot rolls, so I'd also need quite a few couplings and clamp them together.  Then, when I'm done for the season, I'd need to undo it all and roll it back up somehow.  I was thinking a garden hose would be a whole lot easier to deal with, although it probably isn't much cheaper.



Title: Re: Want to pump water very long distance from brook
Post by: “Mark” on November 19, 2009, 09:45:02 AM
The black PE piping is just a bit expensive and inflexible (it doesn't want to lay flat until you leave it out in the hot sun for a while).  It comes in 100 foot rolls, so I'd also need quite a few couplings and clamp them together.  Then, when I'm done for the season, I'd need to undo it all and roll it back up somehow.  I was thinking a garden hose would be a whole lot easier to deal with, although it probably isn't much cheaper.

It survives -20C quite nicely. Just make sure you completely drain the pipe before it freezes, and the easiest way to do that is to make sure there are no dips in the line.

You probably want to go with at least a 3/4th inch inside diameter. If it's smaller, it'll make a lot of resistance for the pump. I'm not too knowledgeable on the math there though, so perhaps someone else can give some insight.
Title: Re: Want to pump water very long distance from brook
Post by: Going Galt on November 19, 2009, 07:10:44 PM
It survives -20C quite nicely. Just make sure you completely drain the pipe before it freezes, and the easiest way to do that is to make sure there are no dips in the line.

And that's why I'm quite concerned about using that pipe and leaving it there.  It is going to be impossible to avoid any dips... the slope is not consistent (even goes back up a little in some places before going back down further).  If I use a garden hose, I can just let the water drain out at the end of the season as I coil up each section.


Title: Re: Want to pump water very long distance from brook
Post by: “Mark” on November 20, 2009, 01:34:29 PM
And that's why I'm quite concerned about using that pipe and leaving it there.  It is going to be impossible to avoid any dips... the slope is not consistent (even goes back up a little in some places before going back down further).  If I use a garden hose, I can just let the water drain out at the end of the season as I coil up each section.

Well, you have four options that I can see:

I wouldn't recommend garden hose for a few reasons:

Now you can get high pressure garden hose, with sufficient diameter. It'll run you a little under a dollar per foot.

The bleeder valves will probably be your best option, all said and done.  You'll have to drain the hose every time there is a possibility of freezing, but it's probably your least expensive option.
Title: Re: Want to pump water very long distance from brook
Post by: survivininct on November 20, 2009, 01:55:05 PM
It may be easier to get a small portable pump and a tank behind truck or ATV and drive the water up the hill and then dump it in the drums near the trees.  Just a thought.

Steve
Title: Re: Want to pump water very long distance from brook
Post by: Going Galt on November 20, 2009, 02:49:24 PM
It may be easier to get a small portable pump and a tank behind truck or ATV and drive the water up the hill and then dump it in the drums near the trees.  Just a thought.

True, except for:
- I need to clear a path first (see my other thread)
- I need an ATV (I want one anyway, but it won't be in the next year)

Hey, how hard would it be just to install a well point and a hand pump at the top of the hill?  The water should not be too far down.  I've never put in a well point before.  Someday, I'll have a drilled well and an electric pump (probably with solar panels on the camp), but I don't have the building site cleared (or identified) yet... so for now I'm looking for an option that's a lot cheaper and simpler.


Title: Re: Want to pump water very long distance from brook
Post by: survivininct on November 21, 2009, 07:02:01 PM
Hey, how hard would it be just to install a well point and a hand pump at the top of the hill? 

Depends, how is the soil?  See a lot of rocks on the surface or do you have a feeling they exist down a ways?  They only work in gravel or sand type areas - you aint pounding one into bedrock! 

If you have a bit of land, you may want to look for a wet spot near (preferably above in elevation) where you want to plant and dig a spring.  Look for trees that have the roots spreading on the surface of the ground - clear indication of a high water table.  Look at the base, if it goes in straight, its dry, if it is flaired at the dirt line significantly, it is wet.. 

Also, of course, any seeps or wet areas would be a good clue.

You would be surprised how cheap one can get an old ATV or tractor (even a small lawn or garden one) to pull a cart and your water!
Title: Re: Want to pump water very long distance from brook
Post by: Pathfinder on November 21, 2009, 07:52:09 PM
Revisit the idea of hauling water - in the long run it may be simpler and easier all-round. If you can get a pickup where you want the water, look into pickup tanks which old hundreds of gallons. I used one for years to run water to my cows' stock tank - 375 gallons (make sure your pickup can handle almost 3000 pounds of water in the bed!) during hot dry summers when my creek basically dried up. You can then put a comparable tank topside with the appropriate bung fittings to step it down to your irrigation system. You can get ones smaller than 375 gallons for pickups. TSC carries a number - her is one like mine:
http://www.tractorsupply.com/pickup-tank-425-gal-42-in-h-x-67-in-dia--2125937 (http://www.tractorsupply.com/pickup-tank-425-gal-42-in-h-x-67-in-dia--2125937)

ATV mounted tanks will be a lot smaller - I had a 25 gallon sprayer on my ATV (Arctic Cat 350) and I would not put a bigger on on that specific ATV. The bigger ATVs may handle larger tanks, but even if it is 50 gallons, that is a lot of repeat hauling to keep the water in place. They do have tanks on small trailers that can be hauled by ATVs (like below) but again, make sure the ATV can haul the water load uphill. Here's a 40 gallon version -
http://www.tractorsupply.com/trailer-sprayer-40-gal-2137269 (http://www.tractorsupply.com/trailer-sprayer-40-gal-2137269)

If you stay with the pump and hose motif, how about putting in a small dam into the creek, something to give you maybe 500-100 gallons pooled up while you're away, allowing you to pump a new supply of water uphill, and then refilling while you're gone?

Title: Re: Want to pump water very long distance from brook
Post by: Going Galt on November 22, 2009, 08:42:32 AM
Many of these suggestions would require a pickup truck, which I don't have.  I have a small SUV now with 4WD, which lets me drive along my part of the logging road, but no further.  I suppose I should ponder getting a used one.  It'd also need to be big enough to move an old travel trailer, once I eventually get one.

If I drive further along the logging road to the neighbor's land, the brook eventually intersects the logging road.  A pickup truck could make it there, but not my SUV (it gets too muddy as I approach the intersection).




Title: Re: Want to pump water very long distance from brook
Post by: Going Galt on November 22, 2009, 10:09:15 AM
Depends, how is the soil?  See a lot of rocks on the surface or do you have a feeling they exist down a ways?  They only work in gravel or sand type areas - you aint pounding one into bedrock! 

The surface does have a lot of rocks, so I am highly suspect of much hope to just pound a well point into the ground and be done with it.  Maybe I'd have some luck if I just got a shovel and dug as far as I could, then go further with a post hole digger, then maybe drive the point into that.  It may be worth an experiment to see how far I can get before giving up.


Title: Re: Want to pump water very long distance from brook
Post by: “Mark” on November 22, 2009, 03:11:18 PM
If you have a bit of land, you may want to look for a wet spot near (preferably above in elevation) where you want to plant and dig a spring.  Look for trees that have the roots spreading on the surface of the ground - clear indication of a high water table.  Look at the base, if it goes in straight, its dry, if it is flaired at the dirt line significantly, it is wet.. 

Wow. I never knew that. I'll be keeping my eye at the bottom of trees now!
Title: Re: Want to pump water very long distance from brook
Post by: nukeofhazard on November 22, 2009, 09:11:39 PM
I'm going to give this a shot, please bear with me.  Hopefully it will be of some use, or at least food for thought.

Let me start with a few basic assumptions:
- discharge elevation = 50' - 100' above suction source
- discharge point = 700' - 2700' pipe run from suction source

- piping diameter of 1.5" or 2"
- desired flow rate = ? (I'll go with 10 - 20 gpm for now)

- The suction source is a brook that is suitable for pumping.
ie. It is free of debris likely to damage the system. And, deep enough to fully submerge suction piping without the flow stirring up the bottom mud and without a vortex forming from the surface.

- The pump will be at or near ground level next to the brook, but above the level of the water.


Now for some analysis:

How much discharge head does our pump have to put out?
In order to move water, we have to overcome the forces working against us. 
These are:
- The force of gravity
- Friction of the water against the walls of the pipe. 

Elevation differences result in what is called "Elevation Head".  Elevation Head remains constant and is unaffected by flow rate and pipe size. Friction results in "Friction head" which is variable based on pipe size, flow rate, pipe type, and other more minor factors like water temperature (which we'll neglect). Keep in mind that sharp bends in the piping, fittings etc. will add to friction, so it helps to avoid them as much as possible.

Whenever you hear "head" when talking about pumps, think pressure.
1 foot of head is about 0.44 psi.

We'll use the formula:
Required head = Elevation Head + Friction Head
Elevation head = Change in elevation from the suction source to final destination.
Friction head = feet of head loss per 100' of pipe * feet of pipe/100'

Friction head is complicated to calculate, but thanks to my copy of "Pocket Ref" I have it available.

Feet of head loss per 100' of pipe:
1.5" PE pipe at 10 gpm = 1.1'
1.5" PE pipe at 20 gpm = 4.0'

2.0" PE pipe at 10 gpm = 0.3'
2.0" PE pipe at 20 gpm = 1.0'

so our values for required head are:

Best Case:
- 1.5" pipe:
-- 10 gpm: 50' Elevation Head + 700' run = 50'+ (1.1' * 700'/100') = 57.7' (25.4 psi)
-- 20 gpm: 50' Elevation Head + 700' run = 50'+ (4.0' * 700'/100') = 78.0' (34.3 psi)

- 2" pipe:
-- 10 gpm: 50' Elevation Head + 700' run = 50'+ (0.3' * 700'/100') = 52.1' (22.9 psi)
-- 20 gpm: 50' Elevation Head + 700' run = 50'+ (1.0' * 700'/100') = 57.0' (25.1 psi)


Worst Case:
- 1.5" pipe:
-- 10 gpm: 100' Elevation Head + 2700' run = 100'+ (1.1' * 2700'/100') = 129.7' (57.1 psi)
-- 20 gpm: 100' Elevation Head + 2700' run = 100'+ (4.0' * 2700'/100') = 208.0' (91.5 psi)

- 2" pipe:
-- 10 gpm: 100' Elevation Head + 2700' run = 100'+ (0.3' * 2700'/100') = 108.1' (47.6 psi)
-- 20 gpm: 100' Elevation Head + 2700' run = 100'+ (1.0' * 2700'/100') = 127.0' (55.9 psi)

You can see how dramatically the friction head drops off with larger pipe and/or lower flow rate.  It is important to select piping that is rated to the required discharge pressure, otherwise...well you can guess what happens there.   Based on these calculations I'd recommend 2" piping to keep the friction losses down especially for the longer run. 

Now that we know the pressure requirements, lets move on to the pump.  Looking at the Honda Power equipment website, they have a pretty good explanation of pump theory and terminology.
http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/products/pumps/content.aspx?asset=wp_theory (http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/products/pumps/content.aspx?asset=wp_theory)
http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/products/pumps/content.aspx?asset=wp_pumpterms (http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/products/pumps/content.aspx?asset=wp_pumpterms)

For this application you'll probably want to go with a self-priming pump. This can avoid the situation where the pump is started and proceeds to try to pump air because the suction line isn't filled. Running a pump dry can cause damage, and so should be avoided. Note the assumption above about the location of the pump being above the surface of the water will result in this condition. Also note the suction line should be made of rigid material or else the pump could suck it flat.

Honda makes some high-pressure de-watering pumps that look like what you're after. They fit the requirements and are engine driven so they would both simplify the system and enable you to adjust the flow rate with the throttle.
http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/products/models.aspx?page=models&section=P2WP&category=hp (http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/products/models.aspx?page=models&section=P2WP&category=hp)
Title: Re: Want to pump water very long distance from brook
Post by: homeshow on November 26, 2009, 08:59:59 AM
i have allmost exactly the same problem.  house and garden at about 5 acres north and slightly uphill from a small stream and at least 1 spring.  so i'll need about 1500 feet of 3/4-1" tubing i can bury below the tennesee frost line.  a way to pump the water and a storage tank at the house level.  maybe elevated an aditional 5 feet.  then i can gravity feed the future stock tanks and irrigate.

i'm thinking burying a 1/2 blue barrel in the stream bed to collect clean water.  and add a 12V pump hooked to a transformer.  cver with a small spring house to keep it all from freezing.
Title: Re: Want to pump water very long distance from brook
Post by: memtenn on November 28, 2009, 10:23:46 AM
Unfortunately, a ram pump won't work for me because I have neither flow (it trickles) nor drop.  All 1500 or so feet of brook that I own is pretty much at nearly the same level to itself... it probably goes down a few feet from one end to the other but you could never tell.  The flow does pick up near the end of it where two branches combine, but that is even further away (2700 feet) from where I want it.

I don't really want to do this, but the brook is not on the border and there is more land beyond it.  It might be possible to plant way back there, where the land would be at the same level as the brook.  I'm not sure how wet it is going to be though (apple trees don't like to swim in water), plus it'd be very far away and may require some clearing first.


I would strongly suggest doing a little more research on installing a ram pump. They're cheap, require no electricity, reliable, and as long as you have a steady flow of water (a trickle is perfect!) and an elevation drop, you can absolutely build one yourself.

Note that the pump is dependent on a "flow" of water. This doesn't refer to the speed of the water, only that it's not stagnant. The key is to trickle the water into a barrel or container to feed the pump. The pressure is not dependent on how fast your brook is flowing. Also, I encourage you to look more closely at the brook elevation change. What you perceive as only a little change could actually be substantial. If it's flowing in a direction, it's dropping. A good DIY ram pump design can pump water continuously 10 times the drop in elevation (20 feet per 2 ft drop, 30 feet per 3 ft drop, etc.).

You could probably build an excellent one yourself with PVC and 2 valves for $60. Like I said, I suggest looking a little closer at this type of option before you even begin worrying about a generator or solar option. It's too cheap not to!

 
Title: Re: Want to pump water very long distance from brook
Post by: Going Galt on November 28, 2009, 02:30:42 PM
Sounds interesting about the ram pump, but there really isn't any drop of any significance.  I wish I had a picture of it to show.  The whole brook runs parallel to the bottom of the hill, and probably changes a few feet over the course of 1/4 mile.  It is met in a number of places by trickles coming down the side of my hill; those go down hill but I'm sure will be very intermittent.

Now, I did find another brook on the other side that does flow down hill.  It starts in my land, flows further down the hill then runs into a culvert under a logging road and into other property.  Although, I do not yet know how intermittent this one will be.  It is small enough that no one has bothered to name it.  (Hmmm.... maybe I should name it.  How about Galt's Gulch?)  And, it is 200 feet below where I hope to plant.  Although, that side of the land is otherwise dry and better for trying to plant anything on, so maybe I could actually consider planting further down the hill near this other brook.  BUT, only if I can be sure that it runs all summer.  It is running now, enough that I can't actually jump across it.  But, I'll have to see what next year brings.

This might actually work out better, IF the thing will actually flow all year.  This side of the hill is much easier to walk around (not much brush), is dry, and attracts less deer (so attracts less hunters). 



Title: Re: Want to pump water very long distance from brook
Post by: “Mark” on November 29, 2009, 02:02:12 PM
It is running now, enough that I can't actually jump across it.

Then you have more than enough current for a ram pump, if it runs all year round.
Title: Re: Want to pump water very long distance from brook
Post by: bshupe on December 02, 2009, 12:22:39 AM
Maybe build yourself a small water tower at the source of the water and let gavity push the water to where you need it? If anything the gravity push would greatly reduce the size pump you would need. You could also use your small generator to run a small (pancake) air compressor and pressurize the water tank to further assist with pushing the water to the desired location.
Title: Re: Want to pump water very long distance from brook
Post by: Going Galt on December 02, 2009, 04:36:32 PM
It'd have to be a pretty big tower in order to be above the point where I need the water to end up.  Although, I have thought that a tower might be nice, but for a different purpose.... I'd like to have a 360 degree view for astronomy purposes.  As it is now, I'm not going to be able to make a single clearing that simultaneously looks in all directions (doing so would require clearing way too big an area).  But, I'd probably never do that.  (Too big a project, plus anything that strange would attract unneeded attention to myself.)



Title: Re: Want to pump water very long distance from brook
Post by: Going Galt on December 05, 2009, 05:08:20 PM
The little second brook that I discovered isn't going to be sufficient for much of anything.  I explored it today, and while it is pretty now, it is clear that the trickle it now has (after very heavy rainfall) will completely dry up.  It is just as well because I didn't see any good places nearby it where I could plant stuff (too wet).

However, I think I could do some planting near the big brook.  I had another look today and the land near it has some areas that have potential.  Much of the land is patterned with logging drag zones, so those areas solve the problem of having to cut down lots of trees.  I mainly have to clear brush and find some ground that doesn't have too many rocks.  If I do that, then my original pumping problem is reduced to less than 10 foot vertical rise (although I may want the hose maybe 150-200 feet away.   I still don't see that a ram pump would be feasible.  The brook's banks are only a few inches high so I can't dam it up in order to try to create a drop.