The Survival Podcast Forum

Armory, Self Defense, And EDC => The Airgun Board => Topic started by: byJess on April 20, 2012, 09:55:10 AM

Title: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: byJess on April 20, 2012, 09:55:10 AM
I am just wondering if anyone has any thoughts on airguns, specifically replicas being used as self defense.

I suspect that a lot of the power and control that can be derived from a gun comes before a round is left off.  Is it foolish to try to bluff with an airgun?

Obviously the real thing is better, but if the real thing couldn't be easily obtained, or wasn't wanted for whatever reason, could someone be secure with an airgun?
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: cmxterra on April 20, 2012, 10:54:38 AM
No no and no

Good way to get shot. You don't bluff when it comes to self defense. If it is serious enough to need a gun to protect yourself then having something like that is just foolish.
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: cdhm22 on April 20, 2012, 11:03:22 AM
I'm sorry but I think I have to agree with cmxterra. If lethality is the concern then there are a lot of options for non-lethal ammunition, but I don't feel that if it is up to a self defense scenarion that using an air gun is at all a worthwhile thought. I think pepper spray would be a better deterrant than an air gun. As a kid we used to shoot each other with air guns while playing army, and I can tell you that or a paint ball gun wouldn't deter me as a kid, so if you do get to the point of needing to shoot you are hosed. I got sprayed by accident once with pepper spray, and even in the scalp nowhere near my eyes I will tell you I ran away.
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: soupbone on April 20, 2012, 04:37:45 PM
The most powerful commonly available airguns are of the .25 cal. spring air or pre-charged pneumatic types. These have about the same effectiveness as a .22 short - not something you would want to stake your life on. .25 cal. guns are for serious airgun afficinados and priced accordingly - from $300 up. Mostly up.

The really high-powered large caliber airguns - .30 cal. and up to .44 or .50 are quite capable of being used, but are mostly single shot. They have been used to hunt such game as wild boar, so there is enough power, but expect to pay big $$$ for these very intricate custom made rifles.

If there is some reason that you cannot have a firearm - local gun control laws, for example - tread carefully, as those locales that ban firearms often ban high powered air guns.

All in all, I have to agree with cmxterra and cdhm22 - if you feel the need to threaten deadly force, you need deadly force. Threats don't always work and could exacerbate  the situation - not something you want to do. A surprise blast of OC spray to the face, followed up with a baseball bat (or war hammer(:D)) if necessary would be far more effective for self defense than any common airgun. Psychologically, OC might be more effective than a gun, as the perp would realize that he is more likely to get hosed down with "ouch juice" than shot.

"Is it foolish to try to bluff with an airgun?" It is very foolish to try to bluff with ANY gun, both from the tactical and legal standpoint.

soupbone
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: FreeLancer on April 20, 2012, 08:22:23 PM
If you don't mind spending over $2k (gun, scuba tank, optic), you could use the Benjamin Rogue .357. 

(https://encrypted-tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQMcAwUmJQsPxADE7ms65KowL5rn0K9lNMoO0gaaegskmyTGnUF)

Personally, I'd rather spend a lot less for a shotgun.....


......but I like the warhammer idea, too.

(https://encrypted-tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQCO21xGefLN5qUZ15cXwWPdofo4eTPqeiGIwahSMPTHwOiNRBA)
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: markl32 on April 21, 2012, 12:23:20 AM

If you believe you can defend yourself by bluffing with an air gun you are a danger to yourself, to others, and in desperate need of some self defense training and mind set adjustment. 

Look up "shootout" and "Armed Robbery" on Google / youtube.  You will be sick.  But at least at after seeing a few real life shoot outs you'll no longer have this dangerous and nieve notion. 
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: pokeshell on April 21, 2012, 02:52:54 AM
Any way to make a air gun go BANG!? I like to hunt the small critters with nice scoped air guns. Very accurate, and deadly. Many are more powerful than a .22, and no noise, so you can drop one, then his buddy sitting next to him.

But for self defense, this is just foolish. Just get the iphone app that make the sound of you racking a shotgun and plug it into your stereo. Then run.

You could easily kill someone with a well placed round from a very nice air gun. But, you would have the time to retreat if you had the time to make the shot.
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: Scottman on May 29, 2012, 06:19:45 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDqs2GSaCXs The caselman air machine gun
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: RPZ on June 21, 2012, 05:59:19 AM
Better than absolutely nothing. Better would be one of the more powerful airguns that can equal or exceed a .22 rimfire. Better still would be a .22 rimfire autoloader.

If you can not have or do not want a firearm perhaps the best would be a croosbow or conventional bow.
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: bdhutier on June 21, 2012, 10:20:46 PM
Better than absolutely nothing. Better would be one of the more powerful airguns that can equal or exceed a .22 rimfire. Better still would be a .22 rimfire autoloader.

If you can not have or do not want a firearm perhaps the best would be a croosbow or conventional bow.

IMO, better would be a stun gun or tazer, versus an airgun.  At least those could buy you some time to get some distance between yourself and the threat!
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: blademan on October 31, 2012, 01:13:07 AM
Hi,
   I just joined the forum and this is my first post. I chose this thread because I have thought a lot about this very question as an airgun may be the route I have to go as a projectile base home/self defense tool.
   My opinion on this question is yes an airgun can be a usable and effective tool for home defense. If a firearm (powderburner) is not an option then the APPROPRIATE  airgun can be a viable alternative. Not just should your airgun choice be appropriate but the pellets you use need to be chosen for this purpose.
  Here is what I mean by appropriate.
  Power: take the smallest firearm caliber effective (not optimal, airgun are not an optimal choice for home/self defense so there has to be some leeway in our decision process) for home defense. This is has to be the .22 or a .25 ( I know a .25 is usually laughed at but you know who isn't laughing at .25s, all the dead people killed by them.) So, go find an airgun that can match that power. While you can find some .22 and .25 cal air rifles that are pretty powerful, they simply lack the impact due to small pellet size.
 So you move up in caliber. This is where the decision gets pretty hard. It puts you between a rock and a hard place. After .25 caliber, there are only a few affordable and reliable options in airguns. They are almost all rifles, there are just nothing in a air pistol that I would consider for defense unless it was the absolute only thing I could possibly get, or it just happened to be in my hand when I needed to protect myself.
   So this brings you to a decision, you have to weigh power, action, quality and price.
   The problem with air rifles is that the obtainable high power rifles tend to be single shot. Now, most people will think that its a good to have a gun that can give you a quick follow up shot, they are RIGHT! That being said, it like making a choice between a break barrel 12 ga. and a 5 shot .22 pistol. I would probably go with the shotgun. I base it on this, if I am 100% accurate and land every shot with either gun, I have a greater chance of ending a confrontation with a 12 than the 22. (I base that on the fact that there are more people walking around who have survived multiple shots with a .22 than there are who survived a single shot from a 12 ga at home defense ranges) So, that limits the options a little but there happens to be a few air guns that would fit the bill.
   First, there is the recommendation above of the Benjamin Rouge epcp rifle.
 Its a .357 cal high power air rifle. It has been used to take feral hogs and deer at bow ranges which is far greater than all but the most unusual home defense ranges.
  Here's the cool part, it is a six shot semi auto with a easy to use rotary (think revolver here) magazine. But just like any gun, you have to train with it, its more complicated than most air rifles and firearms, but it would absolutely work in this situation.
  Downside: $$$$. Also, it is battery powered, though I think there is a way to use it without it but I may be wrong here. And its big, but if you train with it, that's a small downside. 
 Next, there is the daystate wolverine, it is. .303 cal pcp air rifle. It is a repeater too working off the same rotary type mag at the Rogue. It has the same upside downsides as well with the added downside of it costs even more and its imported meaning if it needs warranty work, you have to ship it to england to my knowledge. I think it need batteries too.
   Now if you lean more toward raw power than shot capacity and have a more limited budget, there there are the Korean airguns. Shin Sun is a good brand but hard to get right now. Evanix makes a 9 mm repeater, but it is a bit pricey, and it also requires a battery.
   There is also sam yang, they make a .357,  a .45. And a .50 caliber rifle. These are all single shot jobs but I have seen the .50 shoot through 1 1/2 inch pine boards at moderate ranges and they are used as a primary hunting weapon in countries where guns are forbidden to the general population. My opinion is that if it can kill a dear of a adult wild boar, it can be used to defend ones self with. There is a lot more I can say on this, but I will close with this, if you choose an air rifle for home defense, you need to train with it. Get some training or if you can't, watch some training on home defense and apply that to your situation. Also, and this isn't an advert, but a recommendation, www.pyramyd air is a great site for looking into the air guns I mentioned. Do some good research and let that guide your decision. I also agree that trying to threaten with an airgun is a bad idea. Use it or don't. But be ready and willing to use it if you have to.
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: Alan Georges on October 31, 2012, 06:34:52 AM
Axe, baseball bat, shovel, almost anything would be better and more legally defendable afterward than screwing around with an airgun in the situations we're most likely to face.  Though blademan does bring up some interesting points.  The real answer is a shotgun.  Even the most restrictive states here in the U.S. will allow their subjects to own and use a pump or double barrel.

But it is true that you can stop a freight train with a bb gun (and that's the real point of this post).  Here's how:  http://what-if.xkcd.com/18/
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: livinitup0 on October 31, 2012, 07:59:11 AM
I'd rather have a slingshot with some ball bearings than an airgun for home defense... one of those single shot, one handed crossbows would probably be better than that. 

that being said when i'm out of my apartment and in a house Im getting a .12guage with some 00buck. No use reinventing the wheel here man. :) 
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: oktheniknow on October 31, 2012, 09:25:48 AM
I like to hunt the small critters with nice scoped air guns. Very accurate, and deadly. Many are more powerful than a .22, and no noise, so you can drop one, then his buddy sitting next to him.
I've thought about that for killing squirrels and such. Any suggestions for a good air gun with scope that has no noise for that type of thing?
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: Scottman on November 01, 2012, 10:06:07 PM
A long barrel 22 with aguilla super colibri, cb shorts/longs works well.
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: blademan on November 02, 2012, 08:18:52 PM
I would like to take a minute here to reiterate the reasons that certain air guns are one of the best solutions for home defense in a situation when a powder burner is not available for whatever reason. One, certain air guns, the benjamin rogue, the shin sungs in 9, .45, and 50 and the sam yangs in the same calibers, are hunting rifles. They are made to kill animals and have been used to take deer and boars at archery ranges. If you can kill a 300 lb boar or a 150 to 200 lb buck at 30-50 yards, you can do the same to a two legged rat in your living room when you are in you kitchen or bedroom or probably anywhere you have a clear sight picture. Again, would I rather have a 5 to seven round auto or pump 12 ga instead of a complicated gun with dual phase ammo, (the projectile and propellant are seperate and both have to be loaded seperately.) Hell yeah I would, but if I had a six shot 357 carbine air rifle that I can attach a laser and tac light too I guarantee you I will kill an intruder with that before you can get your first ball bearing or short plastic chicom crossbow pistol bolt loaded. And even with the single shot bigger air guns, they will reload faster than a crossbow pistol. And those pistols are almost always a really cheaply made piece of crap, if you look at the reviews, a lot of people complain about some of them breaking on the first shot. And if you are going to defend your house with toys, get something with a little punch and get a cold steel big bore blow gun and a bottle of curari because that will work better than a sling shot. Unless you have the one that sweedish dude made that shoots machetes. I'm not trying to rant here, but this guy asked a serious question and I'm seeing a lot of answers to questions he didn't ask.

    Another word about air superiority, (or at least adequacy!) The quackenbush air rifles (the new ones) have been used to take bison and other large (african, if memory serves) animals. While not a first choice for home defense, it would do the job.
   My opinion is this, if I could not have a firearm for home defense, then the best thing to do is to first, harden your home to be more resistant to invasion. Then have diverse and redundant combative measures to use to defend yourself and subdue, kill or repell and incader. So, a combination of clubs, knives, and other high power projectile launchers should be in the arsenal. Heck, these should be in the arsenal anyway. Additionally, learn to effectively use the weapons you have and learn and practice a martial art such as wrestling or krav maga, or whatever you feel is the best one.

  I'm not saying that everyone should go buy an air gun instead of a 12 ga or glock and call it good. But if its what you have or all you can have, then train with it and learn what it can do and learn what it can do in a given situation. Just like you would do with a "real gun" and use it for those things.
   Something I forgot to expand on in my first reply, something in air gunning that is even more important than in powder burners because of the lower power and shorter range, is ammo selection. There may be no magic bullet, but in many cases there is pretty much a magic pellet. And if home defense is what you are looking for, then that will effect your choice. There are probably as many if not more varities of pellets and makers for a given caliber than there are for powder burners. (Maybe not, but it seems like it.) Though once you get to the higher calibers, it gets a little simpler. Without getting too far into it, I would think that the hollow point wouldn't be as desirable in this case as it is in real guns beacuse of the lower velocities probably won't cause as much expansion and will reduce energy due to lower bullet mass. Just my thoughts on the issue.
   
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: blademan on November 02, 2012, 08:57:12 PM
I got more to say,
   Alan, thanks for the link to that stopping a train with a bb. That was great. Loved it.
   And just to make sure I covered all aspects of his question,
Home defense, yes if you can't have or don't want a real gun. Couple it with other options and learn how to use an air rifle the same way you would use a pistol caliber carbine for home defense, and practice with it. You will have to figure out how to do that.
  As for self defense, if you mean away from home, or even in your yard. Hell NO!
    There is no commercially made air pistol I am aware of thay would in anyones even very liberal view be considered a good concealed self defense weapo. There's just not enough area on a package that small to get enough air compression to get the power you need to reach fatal energies. And not to mention the legal implications. You are likely to get shot by cops, or other citizens doing that at worst and get your ass handed to you by the person you shoot or wave it at in the least. So, good luck buddy, I hope you find a home defense option for you. For self defense, cardio so you can run if you need to. (More advisable than most people want to admit or talk about.) Strengthen your lungs so you can make a lot of noise to get attention, learn and practice a martial art. And carry unusuall weapons. The asp key defender is a real good one for this. Its a flail, kubotan,and it has pepper spray in it. Get one of those and a short ball bearing or golf ball monkey or gorilla fist and put the fist on the key ring and you have a heck of a meelee option with that. A walking stick or cane (look up hanbo) or even just a bottle of water squited in some jerks face might be all you need to get the upper hand and end a confrontation. But I don't want to go on all day. There was a suggestion for a stun gun or taser above. And I would prefer a brand name TASER or something very similar as they give you distance from your attacker. Pawn shop stun guns and malil order stuff can be anywhere from excelent to only good for impressing and amusing your drinking buddies with. Again, good luck and I hope you find something that works for you.
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: livinitup0 on November 05, 2012, 07:26:15 AM
Arent these super powered air rifles regulated just as much as a regular gun in most states? I dont know why someone wouldnt just get a normal gun for half the cost of one of these super BB guns if its just as much of a headache legally and more prone to malfunctions... 


Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: flippydidit on November 05, 2012, 08:51:52 AM
I'm going to say that if you're looking at home defense, and for whatever reason you can't go with a conventional firearm or BP weapon, then the air rifle/pistol still wouldn't be my choice.  I'd go with a corded or battery powered chainsaw first.  You don't need to swing it like a warhammer (think cramped hallways).  It's also quite the psychological weapon to an intruder.  Next would be one of those air compressor powered nail guns (may need modification to shoot further than 10 feet or so).  Finally I might choose a fully automatic paintball gun shooting ball bearings or marbles (you could probably crank the pressure up too).

These of course are probably all illegal for those purposes, SO DON'T DO IT!

Now to be serious.....have you considered a full grown tiger?  I'd imagine that even a well armed home intruder would run like a 6 year old sissy girl if he came across that climbing through a window.

Anyway, all of the above options would be more likely choices for me than an airgun.  Probably also a flamethrower, but I'd need to prep the home for fire-proofing.....
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: blademan on November 05, 2012, 11:38:14 AM
Livin,
   I think you are right in some states, and many countries, they are considered firearms and fall under the same restrictions. In most of the US to my knowledge, they are still pretty much legal for everyone. And you are right that they are probably more prone to malfunction than most powderburners, and pretty expensive. End of response to livintup


Again though, the question was could he use an air gun for home/self defense either as a real lethal weapon or as a intimidation tool in a situation in which a real gun was unwanted or unavailable. Most people have answered why it sucks or isn't a good idea. The question was about possibility, not approriateness. I just wanted to give the guy the best information to guide him in a non optimal situation.
   I would not like to be in the situation of being forced to use less than optimal equipment to protect myself with. Let's change the variables, let's say you hate 9mm. Let's say you also hate hi-point firearms. And for some unlikely reason, you are forced to chose between a either a sharp stick, or a hi-point 9mm carbine rifle. Let's equalize it even more, you have unlimited materiel with either choice, in other words, ammo and sharp sticks are available in equal ammounts and if the gun needs fixing or replacing, its done.
   I'm going to pick the hi-point everytime. All day.
 Let's take it a step further, say you could choose between the same firearm and a knife.  I'm still picking the firearm. I'm going to pick a firearm because its the most powerful weapon that an attacker is likely to have and not having one puts you at a serious disadvantage. If you are forced to take the firearm out of one side of the equation, (ie you won't have one) then you need to fill that variable with the most similar choice you can. The most similar option to a firearm in this case is a high power air rifle that is ballistically capable of ending a conflict. Just my opinion.
 Ok I just saw the new post to this topic.
Wow, those suggestions are the most tv based loads of crap I have ever heard.
Let's say this another way, if someone broke into your home with the benjamin rogue and shot you in the head with it as you were swinging a baseball bat, chainsaw, sling shot, etc at them, you would be dead. These things are freakin guns, they will kill a person in one shot. They are deadly. They are more usable than a muzzleloading blackpowder rifle. They are as historic as feudal japan where they were used as sniper rifles because they were absolutely smokeless and quieter than powderburners. So there is a bit of history with them being used to kill people.
  A corded chainsaw? Really? Yeah chainsaws have been used in home defense (one case I know of involves a blind man chased off three armed guys with one here in oklahoma) but really, you are going to exchange a effective efficient tool for one that is not as effective or efficient based on the fact that it isn't as effective or efficient as a third tool that isn't part of the equation. This makes no sense. That would be like saying since I can't have a kabar, I'm just not going to have a knife at all and I will do all my cutting with a spoon. Go get some actual training in dynamic tactical home defense and see if anyone in that group would pick a chain saw. Go look up some of the vids on the sam yangs and other high power air rifles.
   The right high powered air rifle and the training to use it correctly, isn't as good as a shotgun, or a pistol caliber carbine, or a handgun for home defense. I want to go on record saying that. Just about ANY powder based gun of modern manufacture and design is better than almost ANY airgun of the same caliber.
   This is a case of emotional prejudice over riding logical thought process.
You can't stop a person who is ten feet away or more with a chainsaw. The paint ball gun is an airgun that is lower power and less effective, I mean really, let's not go further backward than we have too. The rogue is better than any paintball marker. Period. The only edge is that they can be full auto but they still are less lethal on average than any of the air rifles I've mentioned. Volume doesn't make up for power and effectiveness.
   And a tiger? A doggo argentino well trained as a protection dog would be more useful. 
   And would eat less. And shed less. And would be less likely to get spooked by some large hairdo and drag you around by your neck. You could afford a pack of hunting dogs and a contingent of protection animals for the came cost a single tiger and have less trouble with them. I was trying to give this guy a serious usable answer that might him defend his life one day. And I think a flame thrower for home defense is bass ackward. Seriously, I'd go naked and barehanded down a dark hallway first.
  It seem like even though we told the guy not to try to threaten with an air gun, a lot of the other suggestions have been about things that would be mostly for a scare factor. I'm not trying to scare someone with a home defense weapon. I hope they never see it.
   So let's try to be serious about the tools we would take to this job.
  Sorry to pick on you flippy, but those were some pretty out there suggerstions, I think using them would go badly for the person using them.
 Seems like we are trying to reinvent the wheel on projectile weapons here, I considered this for a while to use high pressure pneumatics to throw things at bad guys. Then I looked on line and saw that smarter people than me had already done it better than I was planning. The best answer to no firearm is the next best thing. Air arm. It has enough power and in the right configuration, is fast enough even if its a little slower than the real thing. I also base this answer on the fact, the irrefraggable fact that many of the high power air rifles are made in countries where powderburners are illegal. They are used for hunting and home defense.  Daystate air rifles are high power but lower caliber rifles that have to be set to a lower power in order to be sold in the country they are made in. I still haven't heard someone say why the appropriate air rifle isn't more desireable than a lett powerful option in lieu of real guns. Or an alternative that is realistic. The test is this, does it work, would you trust your life to it? So if anyone would like to proceed along those lines then I would like to read their response.
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: livinitup0 on November 05, 2012, 01:32:50 PM
someone's sarcasm detector is broke. :)

yes an airgun could be used for self defense. Should it be?... no...because even outside of firearms there are more practical and reliable home defense solutions...

like a Liger....or a gorilla trained in karate....or in-law's. 

...and for the kind of money it would cost to get one of these super high powered BB guns, I could probably fortify my place to precent 99% of bad guys from even getting in.
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: blademan on November 05, 2012, 03:19:02 PM
Wow,
    I recognized the sarcasm. My point was that people were dismissing the idea because they are unfamiliar with the rifles I speak of and the turned around and offered less not more effective solutions. If you can get a high powered air rifle in lieu of a real gun, and plan to use it for home defense, then I say that it is a very good choice even though its a bit pricey. You can get just as expensive with some real guns. It also gives you the added ability of hunting that you cannot do with most of the non projectile alternatives that have been suggested. And since many of the high power air rifles have selectable power settings, they can be adjusted up or down for the size of the game you are hunting. This is something thaat you can't do with most real guns other than the shotgun.
   Again I am not saying that air guns are the state of the art in home defense. What I am saying is that expecially in the abscence of real guns, they are a excelent part of a multifacted home defense system, one that should include a dog(s), enhanced physical security measures, distraction and harassment measures, etc.
  I still have not been convinced that the appropriate air gun is a bad choice for addition to a home defense system or that there is any reason to exclude it from selection in favor of some other item especially for a close combat meelee option that is inherently more risky and less effective when compared to a flying chunk of cold lead.
   In the interest of being open minded though I will admit that I see that an archery option in the absence of firearms. But I guess its all a matter of choice.
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: livinitup0 on November 05, 2012, 03:34:33 PM
I think this is where we're really disagreeing....

"are a excelent part of a multifacted home defense system"

lets just agree to disagree....
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: joeinwv on November 05, 2012, 07:59:00 PM
Certainly, if you have enough qualifiers, then an air rifle is a viable option.

Kind of like asking if a bicycle is a good mode of cross country transport. Sure it is, if there's no planes or cars or motorcycles or scooters or horses or ox drawn carts....
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: blademan on November 05, 2012, 09:53:34 PM
Ok livinitup, we don't agree.

Joe, the qualifiers were not of my invention, they were part of the question. I tried to answer question as it was asked, not throw in extraneous information or non reality based fantasy advice. Again I feel the test of an idea is does it work, would you stake your life on it. I would stake my life on the advice I have given here, but I wouldn't feel the same about some of the other suggestions either comparatively or on their own merits.


 I think that answering the guys obviously naive question with as much practicality and straightforwardness as possible is the right thing to do. I think that anyone who actually goes and either uses what I was reccomending or does enough research to understand the power and utility of some of these rifles, and still thinks they would be better off a sling shot (rarely ever lethal, if you want to argue with me on that, go and find 500 individual events where a sling shot was used to stop a crime and post links in this thread.) Or some other method that requires contact with the intruder, then that person is not treating this subject with the respect it deserves. I'm talking about a tool that when used properly, can be as effective in the situations we are talking about. Not as effective as a shotgun or pistol or rifle. But more effective than a hand thrown rock, or a sharp stick, or or a mini pistol crossbow, or whatever else stuff people pulled off their cuff above. Anyway, again, I hope this guy finds a home defense  system that works for him.
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: flippydidit on November 06, 2012, 02:04:32 AM
Blademan,

You did completely miss my sarcasm AS IT WAS INTENDED.  You didn't miss that I used it.  So I will clarify why I think purchasing a hundred trained weasels to assault a home intruder is more viable than an air gun.

The original poster's own words:

Quote
"I am just wondering if anyone has any thoughts on airguns, specifically replicas being used as self defense.

I suspect that a lot of the power and control that can be derived from a gun comes before a round is left off.  Is it foolish to try to bluff with an airgun?

Obviously the real thing is better, but if the real thing couldn't be easily obtained, or wasn't wanted for whatever reason, could someone be secure with an airgun?"

Nowhere in the post does this person ask about SHOOTING the air gun to defend themselves.  The OP wants to know the value of an air gun to secure their home by using it to bluff an intruder into thinking it's the real thing.

Quote
I am just wondering if anyone has any thoughts on airguns, specifically replicas being used as self defense.

Whether or not you choose to take some of the OP and run with your own ideas is fine with me blademan.  Just try to understand that we were answering the OP's question.  Not taking some of the question and then extrapolating some fantastical plan about how we're going to fend off an armed home invasion with a pellet rifle.
 
Quote
Go get some actual training in dynamic tactical home defense and see if anyone in that group would pick a chain saw.

For your information, I don't attend any "dynamic tactical home defense" training schools for a few reasons.  First, I think if you're going to instruct something, you should have actually done it.  So for this school to work for me, it would have to be instructed by someone who has actually fought off a home invasion.  Even if there was such a "tactical" school, I also doubt if anyone in that group would pick up a pellet rifle either.

If your choice is to advise the OP on how to make home defense viable with a high powered air rifle, then you'll get no complaints from me.  There are many people in the world for whom that may be their only lethal choice.  Just don't think that I'm going to stop answering silly questions with silly answers when someone wants to know if an air rifle should be used to bluff a potentially life threatening armed intruder.

My professions as a soldier and gunsmith have given me quite a bit of experience with weapon systems of all kinds.  Your assumption that I know nothing about high powered air rifles is unfounded and inaccurate.  I know quite a bit about them, and even use them myself.  However, I decided to be a gunsmith.  Not an air rifle smith.  Do you need to guess why?
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: blademan on November 06, 2012, 11:58:21 AM
Flippy,
   I apologize, I wasn't trying to insult you. And I did understand both that you were using sarcasm and why. I also understood the tone of the OP's question. And I think that if you look at my posts you will see that I answered the part about using the airgun or any gun as a a bluff. The answer is absolutely not. But since he asked about general self defense, I answered that too. Home defense is self defense in the home, so since that's the best use of air rifles as self defense, I confined my answer to that.
   The point is that while everyone was giving sarcastic and really unrealistic and unsafe answers, no one really gave a good answer as to what to use instead. The best answer was a basball bat and or pepper spray. Those are fine as long as the dude breaking in doesn't have a gun. You have to take a basball bat and to some extent pepper spray to the bad guy for it to work. It seems like people here are answering the question from the point of view of using a Red Ryder to try to get someone to leave. I specifically mentioned air rifles capable of lethal force because using anything less is usually a mistake.
  I am not saying they are as lethal or effective as a real gun, THEY ARE MORE EFFECTIVE THAN A BASEBALL BAT FROM ALL RANGES in which either are effective.
      I do have a problem with answering the poster's question with useless and asinine responses, they are pointless and rude. If the guy was being purposely stupid, the that's cool give him all the crap you want, I'll help. But since this guy was simply naïve, I think its wrong to smart off to him and not offer any actual help. For the record, I agree that using a replica firearm to try to control a situation is STUPID. I will agree with that all day.
   Point out how I went off on a fantastical idea of how I was going to repel an armed home invasion. I don't think I was being fantastical at all. If you take a baseball bat to a gun fight, you will probably end up just as dead as the guy bringing a knife to one. At least my option gives you the option to fight from behind cover and from a distance.
   I take it then flippy that you haven't used lethal force to repel a home invasion? Neither haven't and I hope I never do. That experience isn't necessary to answer this question. Its a matter or logic, will this work, will it work better than the other options over a broader range of scenarios? The answer to both questions is yes.
   Flippy I think you are wrong, if you gave a tactical firearms instructor the choice between defending his home with a knife, baseball bat, pepper spray, asp baton, bow and arrow, and a high power air rifle capable of ending someone's life, I bet that the guy is going to choose the projectile weapon most similar in form and function to a real gun. It probably won't be the only tool he chooses but the again swat teams carry mor than just guns don't they.  I mean maybe we should suggest that this guy use flashbang grenades to defend his home. They would work. They are neither legal or practical. Air rifles are usually both.
    I say this because most of the time it doesn't pay off to take two or three technological steps backward when all you have to take is one. I could be wrong here. I just think that being able to take a bad guy down from a distance is better than having to get up close and personal.
   And flippy you didn't really defend your position, either by pointing out flaws in mine or by actually suggesting an alternative. All you did was use sarcasm again when it was neither warranted or effective.  There is no reason actual resason you can give that the weapons I suggested would not work for the purpose given as a rule. There are only preferences. I prefer to have something that is the most like a firearm in the absence of a firearm. You may prefer to go up against a guy who has a gun with a bat or whatever else, I leave you to you preferences.
   The high power, large caliber repeating or non repeating air rifle is a good home defense option in the absence of real guns. Is it the only thing one should rely on?
No, neither is a real gun. Its not even the best solution in some situations.
Each situation has its own set of solutions. Same with a real gun.
    Is having to use an air rifle to defend my home and or life with a situation I would want to be in? No. Would I use it if that was what was available to me? Yes. That is my point.
   I understand and agree with your comment about why you became a gun smith. But then again, we are dealing with a situation in which a real gun isn't an option.
   Anyway, there's not much more new stuff to say on this topic, I answered the question realistically and some other people chose to take a less mature stance.

   In review:
1. The RIGHT high powered large caliber air rifle (not pistol) is a good PART of a home defense SYSTEM in the absence of firearms
2. You should train with your air rifle to defend your home with your air rifle the same as you would with a real gun.
3. Develop a home defense system that is redundant and multifaceted. Implement, maintain, and train with this system.
4. If at all possible get a real gun, air guns are not optimal home defense tools, but will work if the real thing isn't available.
5. The right air rifle is pretty expensive. You have to have hand pump, a scuba tank (at least one) and the hoses and fittings to fill the rifle's reservoir. These are not included in the price of the rifle usually. This makes the use of the air rifle more complicated, so this means training is very vital.

    I got nothing else on this topic and as the OP hasn't participated since the original post, o don't see any reason to keep arguing. I wast just trying to help someone who was obviously naïve about self defense.
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: livinitup0 on November 06, 2012, 12:30:34 PM
"THEY ARE MORE EFFECTIVE THAN A BASEBALL BAT FROM ALL RANGES in which either are effective."

highly subjective imo. my effective striking range is about 3000x more with a baseball bat than it is with a bb gun. that being said theres a trade-off with having to be close range with a bat. The trade off with your preferred weapon is that you have an effective striking range the size of a pea.....if the weapon even works properly.

it comes down to training and picking a weapon thats comfortable for you....We get it....for you that weapon is a bb gun. That doesnt mean its "better" than anything other than a gun for the rest of us.
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: blademan on November 06, 2012, 02:39:09 PM
 Livinitup,
   I am NOT talking about a red ryder bb gun. If you want to understand what I am talking about go look up the benjamin sheridan rogue epcp air rifle in .357 go look up the say yang hunting air rifles in 9mm .45 and .50 cal. Do you understand that livinitup, FIFTY CALIBER!!!! THE SAME AS A DESERT EAGLE!!!! No its not as powerful, but it is the same caliber and it would kill an intruder. Maybe not with the first shot. But neither do all hand guns or rifles.
 Again I am not talking about a bb gun. These are comprable to revolutionary era smooth bore muskets in power with the added benefit of rifling and modern breech loading design and in some cases a magazine fed system. They shoot bullets, not pellets of bbs. Just because they don't use powder and don't go bang, (actually they do bang) doesn't mean they don't have power.
  So in home defense ranges, this is a better alternative than a baseball bat because it will kill an intruder from across your house. Short of throwing your bat or hittung balls at someone with it, you can't do that with a bat. I mean what is unclear here? There are air rifles out there of a power and configuration that while not as good as a real gun are better than most other non projectile weapons for home defense in most situations.

   They are better than most other non projectile weapons for the same reason than a real gun is. The allow you to deliver threat ending power beyond your immediate physical reach hopefully from behind cover in a strategically advantageous position.
   
    So if you would like to continune to be insulting, at least know what you are talking about. I mean ask yourself this, do you really want to go up against some one whose fighting skill level you do not know, whose level of armament is unknown, probably late at night half asleep, probably in the dark, in CQB? What if he has a buddy you didn't see? I know that I wouldn't. But maybe the concept of a lethal and functioning air gun is too much for you to contemplate in a mature adult fashion. Not only would you want to, is it really the right thing to do? Does it give you the best chance of success or a better chance of success than shooting someone with a lethal weapon from 5-15 yards away? I really don't know why we are still sniping at each other over this subject, I already argeed that we don't agree, that is usually offered by the person who can't win the argument with reason and logic with a person who won't accept bravado, machismo, and emotional agruments as valid points of discussion. I accepted your concession and now you are back taking pot shots at me after you surrendered. That's bad form sir! :P
 And since the range of these air rifles is anywhere from 50 to 100 yards, how long are your arms that your striking range is 3000x greater?  Or was that another failed and unnecessary attempt at sarcasm? Just so you know, I will repeat, I am not speaking about BB guns. They don't shoot BBs. So if you have any real arguments to put forth that are germane and not cheap, ineffective jabs, then do so. Othewise, remain silent. Thanks.
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: endurance on November 06, 2012, 02:44:13 PM
I've thought about that for killing squirrels and such. Any suggestions for a good air gun with scope that has no noise for that type of thing?
I bought my RWS Model 34 .22 caliber from Airguns of Arizona (http://www.airgunsofarizona.com/) over the summer when I was having some critter problems in the garden.  At 30' I have 5 round groups that you could cover with a dime.  Beyond 50' accuracy definitely drops off quickly.  You'll need to buy a variety of different pellets when you first get it so you can dial in which pellet works best for your gun.  There is a huge amount of variation and I've found a 21.3gr pellet had the tightest groups in my particular rifle.  Yes, it'll kill squirrels and rabbits, maybe even a skunk, but I wouldn't try it on anything larger or more robust (not coyotes or porcupines).

None of them are silent.  While the sound of the pellet hitting a steel bullet trap is louder than the gun itself, don't expect any modern high power air rifle to be anything close to silent.  I suspect my 10/22 firing CB Caps is slightly quieter than my air rifle, but it's more of a springy sound than a bullet's report, so more socially acceptable for my neighbors.
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: livinitup0 on November 06, 2012, 02:57:06 PM
well blademan im not trying to pointlessly argue or insult you and I apoligize if ive done something to make you feel that way.

that being said I never once "conceded" to you... not really sure where that came from because I adamantly dont agree with you....that doesnt mean im right or vice versa...that just means I disagree....I think theres far too many variables to factor in to say that one point of view is "right" and the other is "wrong".

that being said... I still feel you're failing to understand what im saying by effective striking range.

If you shoot at me with your airgun, even with your super 50cal round you've still got a very small effective striking range. Its the size of your projectile. If your target moves a foot, an inch even, you can miss... and with the complicated nature of these guns you're not going to get a 2nd shot before your attacker closes the distance to make that weapon pointless. With a bat, my effective striking range is quite large because Ive got nearly a foot of effective striking material to hit you with... much much more than a pellet/round/BB/whateveritscalled. With training could either weapon be much more effective than the other? I really dont know... I really have no desire to train in advanced baseball bat defense or airgun defense.

Are there instances where one of these rifles/guns would be a more effective tool for home defense? maybe... I dont know, ive never shot one.....but from the resarch ive done it does seem to me that I personally would be more effective at repelling a home invasion with a baseball bat than I would be with a 1 shot, super high powered airgun.

You obviously feel differently ....and really... its ok to disagree lol. ...not to mention we've totally derailed this thread from its original intent.

I'll get us back on track....no...bluffing an opponent with a weapon is almost never a good idea unless its your very last resort and im having a hard time even envisioning that scenario.
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: blademan on November 06, 2012, 06:46:42 PM
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?feature=relmfu&v=0o0XVa5oyMU (http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?feature=relmfu&v=0o0XVa5oyMU)
http://m.youtube.com/results?q=benjamin%20rogue#/watch?v=xy7fZtRh84Q (http://m.youtube.com/results?q=benjamin%20rogue#/watch?v=xy7fZtRh84Q)
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zSdHkXlu-lc (http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zSdHkXlu-lc)
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=zSdHkXlu-lc (http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=zSdHkXlu-lc)
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=72fBUCyvZuo (http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=72fBUCyvZuo)
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=XlxcFSq5k8c (http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=XlxcFSq5k8c)
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qtZtVtsChEo (http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qtZtVtsChEo)
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=5GcU9RDiqXY  (http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=5GcU9RDiqXY)

 I hope this clarifies what I mean when I say high power air rifle. Again, not a perfect solutionwhen compared to a real gun and perhaps not the best solution for all scenarios, but I think the videos show that it would work.
   Livinitup. I agree with you it has gotten a little derailed. I also agree that trying to bluff with even a real gun is a bad idea. If you are bluffing, you are already in the "not ready to use deadly force" crowd. If your bluff gets called, you will hesitate because your hands are full of a tool that you are either unable or unwilling to use and will probably get your ass handed to you or worse. I think we agree there. I think though that with the right air rifle, training and contingencies in place, you reduce the effect of missing your target by a great deal. Yes, some of them are a little bit slower to load. Yes there are other problems, but they still fill the role of a gun in that it delivers threat ending force past your immediate reach.
   Ok, I was misled by your use of the word range. I though you meant the distance you could attack from not the impact zone. And your complaint is the ENTIRE point of fire arms, they take a great deal of force and concentrate it over a small area. The bullet and the bat do the same thing in different ways. And being able to hit your targer is why you would train with the weapon you are going to use. Not just hope you will hit what you are swinging or aiming at when it comes time to do so.
   I'm totally ok with disagreeing, I just felt I was having my viewpoint attacked with pointless sarcasm rather than actual fact or evidence based arguments. I'm not really mad and the whole thing about conceeding was me being a bit sarcastic myself.
     Again, I hope the videos above show why I feel that the right air gun would be a good part of a mulitfaceted home defense system. One last example to drive my point home.
   These air rifles are essientially equivalent to a single shot bolt action rifle in function though they are MUCH less powerful though powerful enough to kill a person.
   So if you were trying to repel a home invasion and you had a choice between a club and a single shot bolt action hunting rifle, which would you pick? I'm going to pick the rifle, almost all the time. Why, it allows me to deal with a problem effectively without having to touch it untill it stops moving.  But its cool though, to each his own.
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: joeinwv on November 06, 2012, 09:22:54 PM
That Benjamin 357 fires a 170gr bullet at 800 fps. So certainly lethal. Not counting the cost of a high pressure tank to fill it, the gun itself is almost $1400.

So sure, for the price of a good shotgun, good pistol and a good rifle, you can have a wonky air gun enthusiasts rifle.

As to the OP, waving around a fake gun of any variety is a great way to end up dead.

Okay, get back to it    :deadhorse:
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: flippydidit on November 06, 2012, 09:53:11 PM
   In review:
1. The RIGHT high powered large caliber air rifle (not pistol) is a good PART of a home defense SYSTEM in the absence of firearms
2. You should train with your air rifle to defend your home with your air rifle the same as you would with a real gun.
3. Develop a home defense system that is redundant and multifaceted. Implement, maintain, and train with this system.
4. If at all possible get a real gun, air guns are not optimal home defense tools, but will work if the real thing isn't available.
5. The right air rifle is pretty expensive. You have to have hand pump, a scuba tank (at least one) and the hoses and fittings to fill the rifle's reservoir. These are not included in the price of the rifle usually. This makes the use of the air rifle more complicated, so this means training is very vital.

I would agree with this.  Personally I would still choose a melee weapon with a high lethality probability to accompany a single shot air gun or firearm.  I've shot enough critters and humans to know that the "Hollywood one shot kill" is pretty rare in real life.

You're right that we haven't heard from the OP since starting this thread, and I have no other points to raise.
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: blademan on November 06, 2012, 11:16:50 PM
Flippy and Joe,
   Thanks for replying to the information I posted.
Joe, two things, you are right, just about any air rifle worth using, is freakin expensive and I would not like to be in the situation of having to use that. I know I wouldn't like it because I am in the situation where if I want a reliable projectile weapon, its going to be an ari rifle of some sort. And how did you do the beating a dead horse emoticon? That sir is fantastic! I want one.
      Flippy,
      Thanks for refering to my actual statements even though you disagree. Cold steel makes some great clubs for meelee attacks. The gunstock club is scary looking. There is another one with a ball on the end with a metal striking point. Though they are big and hard to use in close quarters, with the right training or luck, they would absolutely ruin someone's day. I may get one of those myself to go along with my sam yang or rogue when I get one. Heck at that price, I may get one before that.
   I certainly hope the OP comes back to see all the trouble he caused and hopefully all the good advice we put out there.
   
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: flippydidit on November 06, 2012, 11:58:01 PM
Blademan,

No worries.  If it seemed like I wasn't responding to your comments directly in previous posts, it wasn't because I was trying to be arrogantly oppositional.  I sometimes take for granted what I "know" from experience, that others typically haven't been through.  It comes off dismissive without refuting the argument.  My wife has worked with me on this social "stand-offish-ness".  For that I would like to apologize.

When anyone talks about how they're going to shoot someone dead with one shot, I immediately have my doubts about their combat planning.  Especially when one must factor in adrenaline, confusion, darkness, violence, shot placement and all the other factors that will determine if they will actually hit the intruder when it counts.  That's not even taking into consideration that they may hit the goon and still not put him down.  If compared to a 5.56 NATO round, I would guess that there isn't an air rifle on the market that could compare to the ballistics.  That said, I've seen guys take multiple hits from an M4 that didn't even know they were hit.  Many of those hits were in vitals.  They kept fighting.  That's the explanation I probably should have used before.  Sorry if I came off as an arrogant ass.  That was not my intent.

To do the dead horse emoticon, look at your list of smileys.  Below that there is a link that says:  [more]
Click that link and it will open a box with lots of smileys that aren't available on the reply toolbar.

Hope that helps.
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: blademan on November 07, 2012, 12:49:56 AM
Flippy,
   Its cool, I have the same problem. Its a hard one to overcome. I had a friend of a simar mindset explain it like this once,"people think I'm too smart for my own good, and may be they are right but I also think they are not smart enough for their own good and I think that is worse." So, don't let it bother you too much. I don't.
   
     Yeah, I'm not a big fan of trusting in one shot stops either. That being said, extremes are not the norm and sometime we can overthink or dismiss a perfecrly workable solution to a problem because we are rightly worried about an unlikely eventuality.
   
    And to get back to the better use of airguns, someone asked about a good choice for small game hunting/pest control. There are so many really good ones that its hard to pick.
   If quiet is really what you want, the EDgun comes to mind and there is a guy who has devoted some serious youtube time to demonstrating its utility.
    Its a russian import and a bit pricey and kind of a specialty case because its a bullpup form factor which is good for some people and freaks some people out.
There is the benjamin marauder which is on the low end of price for a repeating pcp gun and comes in .22 or .25, which is said to be the ideal caliber for small game air hunting.
The crossman nitropiston rifles are pretty good from what I have heard and are ready to shoot out of the box pretty much with out having to buy anything besides pellets.
They are pretty easy on the pocket book too.
  Here's the caddilac though, in price and function: the fx verminator extreme
 I know it sounds silly, but this thing is crazy useful. Comes in .22 or .25. Has long and carbine interchangable barrels that change without tools. Also has a small barrel that shoots an archery arrow like a crossbow. It also has a reel attachment that allows the arrow to be used for fishing. I don't know all the ballistics on it so I can tell you how big an animal you could take with it, but any north american rodent, small predator or spear fishable fish should all be achievable.
Its a pcp air rifle and I think its more expensive than the rogue.
   There are a lot of options, go look up airgun hunters quarterly, information abounds there. Hope this helps.
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: armymars on December 19, 2012, 10:50:16 AM
I have a Quckinbush in 36 cal. It will shoot a 125 gr. bullet (lee cast for 36 cap and ball revolver ) at 635 fps. A little slower when I use Argon instead of compressed air for the gas. The Argon is a little more accurate then the air. At 25 yards it will put 3 bullets in the same hole. At 50 yards I'm lucky to get 3" groups. The energy is about equal to the factory 38 S/W, not the faster 38 special. This would make the gun a bit light for stopping power, but not unusable.  Good luck.
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: blademan on December 19, 2012, 09:45:33 PM
Armymars,
   Wow, pretty lucky to have a quackenbush. I hear they are hard to come by. I'm not familiar with that model, so I don't know the configuration but if you are looking for a little more power, the benjamin rogue has six shots bolt action of 175 gr .357 @ over 800 fps for about 250 fpe. People have taken red hartbeest with them though the manufacture says that its not intended for game larger than a 200 lbs. That's at hunting ranges though. At HD ranges, its going to have a lot more power. Its a long beast though, so if relying on it tactically, you would have to train like crazy to be able to manuver it.
    So, how does the QB shoot, I hear he has a very good rep among airgunners.
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: armymars on December 21, 2012, 10:23:19 AM
Good morning blademan,
       I have one of nine rifles made in this cal.  The rifling is a gain twist and only .001 deep. I was stripping out the round balls and getting 4" groups at 50 yrds. I switched to the Lee bullet for more baring surface. I then cast them hard. That's when I put 3 shots into the same hole. I mean the same hole. It looks like 1 shot. I had two witnesses sign the target.  When I sludged the barrel it felt like both ends where tight and the middle a little larger. Some day I'm going to take my mold and turn it into a hollow base. The grove is suppose to be .375" Which is my molds dia. I really need a 376 or 377 mold. The hollow base is the easiest for me to do on my lathe.  73
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: Dawgmen on January 15, 2013, 06:52:26 PM
I modified my airgun to a more tactical use and it has good penetration and if ur airgun can go through 1/4 in of pine it is lethal according to ballistic testing but if u want something cheap and lethal right out of the box a self defense crossbow is a good choice..
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: glhallway on January 16, 2013, 02:47:57 PM
Howdy

I just joined this thread today after reading this.  To the point of the question yes an Airgun can be deadly.  It sounds like the gunsmith is confusing Air rifles with BB guns there is a major difference.  Even the low cost Beeman RS2 or Crossman .22 have an unbelievable knock down power.  I got a Sportsman RX2 just for target shooting and critter controll it will penetrate a steel skillet at 50 feet.  I use the Crossman Premier .22 hollow point hunting pellets and this break barrel cheapo (100 bucks) will drop a Coyote.  At 800 fps and about 17grains at close range it can be deadly or at least be a stopper.

It is single cock break barrel and I can shoot reload and shoot again in 5 to 6 seconds it took practice like any thing.  In short if confronted by someone in my house and it was the closest thing I would use it and Pitt the person on the other end. By the way it always has a pellet in the chamber.
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: Meldrew on January 17, 2013, 11:35:41 PM
I own 6 airguns and love them all.  That said, a refresher on muzzle energy (FPE) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muzzle_energy/) would help this discussion a lot. You'll come down to the same conclusion stated in the very first reply - don't bluff and don't count on your Walmart airgun (or any other really) for self defense.   Do the math.

Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: flippydidit on January 18, 2013, 12:14:25 AM
I own 6 airguns and love them all.  That said, a refresher on muzzle energy (FPE) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muzzle_energy/) would help this discussion a lot. You'll come down to the same conclusion stated in the very first reply - don't bluff and don't count on your Walmart airgun (or any other really) for self defense.   Do the math.

Thank you.  I'm not confusing an airgun with an air rifle.  They are both BAD choices for self-defense.  When you can shoot an attacker 5 or more times with a handgun and not stop him, what do you think your pellet is going to do?  Have you ever shot someone?  I have.  It ain't Hollywood.
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: blademan on January 18, 2013, 06:03:33 PM
Yes yes yes,
   Airguns instead of real guns when real guns are available is dumb. Bluffing with any weapon is dumb.
  The right air rifle (at least a 357 with at least 700 fps or more preferably more and multishot capacity) in the absense of a real gun is better than a bow even a crossbow. If you are worried about someone not going down with 5 shots with the appropriate handgun using the appropriate ammo, then you might as well not worry about defending your self with a baseball bat or a car or a crossbow, or a knife, a slingshot or a karate chop or a kick or punxh. Give up and die because you are not willing to consider something other than a gun which is the purpose of the OPs question. No gun, not available.
  I'm talking about some air rifles, (these are not available at wal-mart) with similar ballistics to a 45 or 44 mag handgun. If that's not good enough to stand in, put your other weapons down and pick up a t-shirt and put it on a stick and wave it around and hope for the best.
 I'm being a little bit sarcastic here. Not a lot. If you don't have the best technology available to defend yourself, you have to make do with what you have or submit to captivity or death. No other options except hoping you aren't picked on. I don't like that option.
  If you don't have the option of the highest level of technology that is both the most likely to be brought to bear against you and you are reasonably able to expect to be able to defend yourself successfully in kind, then you need to select something that is the most like that technology and suplement it with other methods and tools and up your tactics and strategy. Improvise, adapt and kill the bad guy before he kills you with whatever you have to use to do it, if its a bung wrench, or a bazooka, kill the bad guy. Plan and equip to the highest level you can. Do whatever you can reasonably do and are comfortable with to have the highest level of technology you can for your security and defense. If you are not to consider how to deal with less than optimal situations and equipment, then when that situation is forced on you, you will cry and give up and die. I'm not saying to back up your real guns with air guns. I'm not saying that air guns are the best choice. I'm not even saying they are a good choice. They are a horrible choice when compare to a firearm in every way. Take firearms out of this picture for a moment and realize and admit that these things really aren't "pellet rifles" in the sense that a .177 caliber pellet rifle is and that in many cases, these things are shooting bullets and that firearm bullets of the same caliber can be fired out of them, then compared to a weedeater, sharp stick, karate chop, sling shot, angry weasel, even an upset pit bull, baseball bat, baton, pepper spray or taser, or punch or what have you that isn't a lethal projectile, the firearm comprable air arm is superior. It is on level and a notch above bows and cross bows because of configuration, speed and ease of use. This is of course just my opinion, but I formed it with things like math, logic and reason and the parameters of the original question. Yes air guns suck, I agree, I would not to want to use one to protect my self or feed my self if a real fire arm was available. I would rather depend on that than just about any other non projectile armament that I can think of. Airguns would and do suck in everyway when compared to a real gun, but they shine when compared to just about anything else. They are called air "guns" for a reason, in the right configuration, they are guns, they will kill, bad guy or animal, hit what you are aiming at, and you will more than likely get the results you are looking for, just like with a real gun, more than likely, not always, not every time. It would work if guns are not available. 
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: Scottman on January 22, 2013, 11:28:34 AM
Cold steel 's DVD never unarmed shows/talks about airguns for defense....
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: blademan on January 22, 2013, 02:19:55 PM
Scottman,
    Thanks for the reference, I had not heard of that, I will have to look into it. Its better than bare hands in a lot of situations. Not a magic bullet, but it is a bullet. And just to be fair, if for some reason "firearms" in a legal sense are verboten, black powder weapons are sometimes not classified as such and in many ways a large or medium caliber black powder revolver in home defense ranges or a blackpowder shotgun for a one on one scenario would probably work spectacularly. Could also fail spectactularly if you are slow or unprepared with it. Just like anything else. Of course this would probably fall under the "I'm scared of that and don't want it in my house" category for people squeamish about boomsticks.
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: Scottman on January 22, 2013, 03:36:31 PM
They were demonstrating "small game airguns" hits to the eye.... other friendlies moved in on the man quickly with other missile weapons, melee weapons.
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: armymars on January 23, 2013, 07:22:32 AM
  I would hate to be hit with my 58 cal Navy Arms black power gun or for that mater a 58 cal air gun at 850 fps to 1200 fps. Ouch!
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: blademan on January 23, 2013, 10:08:10 AM
Not just ouch, dirt nap time. Hope you're sleepy. Firearms are a recent technology and modern firearms are even more recent. Its tactics, strategy and mindset that allow whatever weapon you are using carry the day and sometimes you loose anyway. Its always the best plan to have the best technology. Sometimes you have to use tactica and strategy to compensate for inferior equipment.
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: nelson96 on January 30, 2013, 05:50:22 PM
I wonder if this would turn tail on someone?. . .

(http://www.evanix.com/products/gtl480_1n.jpg)

Full Auto Air Rifle:
Evanix GTL480 select-fire airgun.  Designed for the customers who would prefer an air rifle with a military style look.  It has a fixed 480cc 2900 psi composite cylinder and shoots over 1,100fps.  It is available in both .22 and .25 caliber, and fires from a single 15 shot (12 for .25cal) magazine, or a 30 shot (24 for .25cal) dual magazine.  The stock is made of Aluminum with adjustable cheek piece, and it is an accurate, powerful, reliable semi/full auto system with an electric trigger.

Specifications:
Action - Pre-charged pneumatic, Semi-full auto
Air capacity - 480cc
Caliber/Energy - 0.22"-> 58 joules, 0.25”>80 joules
Barrel Length - 17"
Overall Length - 36"
Magazine capacity - 15,30 (.22) / 12,24 (.25)
Barrel - Rifled
Trigger - Two-stage non-adjustable
Safety - Manual
Max.Fill pressure - 3,190 p.s.i (220 bar)
Max Shots Per Fill - 60
Weight - 8.6 lbs.

.
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: soupbone on January 30, 2013, 08:00:41 PM
80 joules is approximately 59 ft/lbs of energy - about the same as a .22 short from a handgun. Pellets are somewhat lighter than bullets, so you wouldn't get the penetration. Also, air gun pellets are designed to be sub-sonic. Driving one at 1100 fps (+/-) puts it into the just supersonic range with an increase in aerodynamic drag and a resultant loss of accuracy as the pellet quickly slows through the transonic range.

Would it be effective? Don't forget that for much of the last half of the 19th century, folks often carried a .22 short (black powder loaded) revolver, pepperbox or derringer for defense. I don't know if they felt well armed, but they must have felt adequately armed, or they would have carried something else.

Would this be a first choice? Not at all, but a burst in the face at close range could be decisive, as each pellet would pack at close range the same energy as a shotgun pellet, say a #4, would at 20 or so yards.

soupbone

PS:  Joule to foot-pound Conversion Calculator can be found here: http://www.unitconversion.org/energy/joules-to-foot-pounds-conversion.html /s/
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: blademan on January 30, 2013, 09:08:51 PM
Wow, that's a new evanix. I haven't seen this one. I so want one. I just hate the limited air capacity. 60 shots is more than enough for warding off an only moderately determined agressor. But with full auto, it gets expensive for having fun with. Ammo is fairly cheap, but air either has to come from a hand pump or a scuba tank that you have to pay to have filled. It would be neat if you could rig a way to line feed it from a back mounted tank or tanks as you are shooting. Super cool air iron though.
 
 And yes there is some accuracy lost in the sonic transitions, but perhaps a specially designed pellet that is boat tailed and perhaps hollow based would reduce this some. I'm not a big fan of the .22 or .25 cals for defensive purposes, I would rather go bigger and slower, but this makes up for it some in the rate of fire. I have seen a tommy gun based home brew air gun that ws in different calibers from .32 to .45 that was full auto and powerful.
    Even in a perfect world, less than ideal. Not to be overlooked or dismissed derisivel for a sling shot, but still less than ideal.
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: soupbone on January 31, 2013, 11:17:43 AM
For what it's worth, blademan, I was once stationed at a small, kind of remote Air Force Station - a big industrial plant, really - with the nearest range facilities a couple of hours away. We had Crossman "38 revolvers" and target rifles for "training", getting the rust out, correcting bad habits, etc. Instead of the CO2 bottles normally used, we had a gizmo that allowed the guns to be fed by a larger, fire extinguisher sized tank. Movement was limited by the length of the hose, but that wasn't really an issue.

I often wonder how effective something like this would be in convincing someone to just go away:

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSDJzukAtOq5yyfVXwXxyelkIhyacgWEDxb7WCcIzf-JYvFw5yZyw

http://www.shootingstargames.com/

Careful, though, you might shoot someone's eye out.......

soupbone

Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: Scottman on January 31, 2013, 02:00:56 PM
The Caselman

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUKxO03HlOM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUKxO03HlOM)

Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: blademan on January 31, 2013, 04:45:59 PM
Wow. That's pretty neat. Looks a little like the Casleman .30 cal full auto airgun. How dissuading something like that would be would depend entirely on how committed they were, how desperate, and how many of them among some other factors. There's a thread about a paintball marker being used in this capacity and that was a pretty interesting discussion. The reason I participate in discussions like this is because there are a lot of good people out there that may find themselves in exactly this situation for a variety of reasons regardless of someone's current situation and what you foresee in the future, keeping your mental options open and thinking about how to do things differentlly than you do now makes it easier to switch gears. Hopefully of someone ever found themselves having to use a pneumatic solution and won, they would then be able to upgrade their defense after their victory.
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: blademan on January 31, 2013, 05:00:31 PM
My comment was in reference to soup's links. Then scotman posted exactly what I was talking about. With current technology and a few tweaks, the caselman would make a really awesome pellet thrower. I'm thinking of a larger tank, a helical mag and upping the cal to .50. With the right ammount of money, and materials, you could get really good performance out of this design. (Sneaks quietly away to the drawing board with a slightly evil smirk on his face.)
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: Scottman on January 31, 2013, 05:05:03 PM
It's pretty hard to control scrap lead and air. Even ramsets seem available in Great Britain.
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: soupbone on January 31, 2013, 06:19:20 PM
"...keeping your mental options open and thinking about how to do things differentlly than you do now..."

Blademan, I think you just hit the bedrock level of this thread. Thinking outside the box, or shifting paradigms, or whatever you want to call it, is the key to future existance, i.e., our survival in an uncertain environment. Certainly no one, including the OP, is not suggesting an airgun as a first choice, but it can be used effectively in certain situations, given the right gun and the right conditions. I, for one, am enjoying this thread, and learning quite a bit more about airguns.

soup
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: blademan on January 31, 2013, 11:33:41 PM
Soupy,
   
   Thanks for understanding what I am talking about instead of trying to beat me over the head with stuff I am not talking about. Have you read the entire thread? Its pretty interesting at some points and pretty amusing at others. I leave it to you to decide which parts are which.
     
   Incidentally, have you heard of zello? www.zello.com
If you haven't, go check it out and see what you think. Tsp has a channel there. The survival podcast network. I also have my own channel there. Its called the airgun discussion group. Not much is going on in my channel usually, but when I'm available I like to talk to others about air powered stuff. If you feel so inclined, create an account and stop by.
   
   I too am enjoying this thread. I really liked the evanix posted below, its a beast I just wish it didn't cost so much.
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: 21cygnus12 on March 13, 2013, 10:35:29 PM
I started buying air guns to prepare for shooting some classic firearms I have wanted to mess with. Long story short, I really became captivated with the air gun platform and have acquired roughly 20 of them....I saw this thread and have also been thinking a lot about this topic because I find it interesting. I felt compelled to drop my two cents into the pot.

I am no firearms expert....there can be no argument against packing a Glock or 1911 chambered in .45 acp...no argument. It will work and it will handle an intruder problem effectively and reliably....that said, as an engineer, I find it interesting to design things and to make a solution out of something that may not seem to work. I have developed a home defense scenario using air guns and I do think it would be quite effective....for what it's worth, this is my plan.

Weapons....
Beretta cx4 .177, 5 30 round preloaded clips...88 gram, 150 shots
Hatsan Torpedo 155, .25, 1 shot
Webley Patriot, .25, 1 shot
Gamo PT-85 holstered right
Beretta PX4 holstered left

Equipment...
Custom Kevlar tactical vest

Preparation is key....and I do not recommend this is the best home defense plan, but I do submit that whomever is foolish enough to see the NRA sticker on our front door, hear the dual ameirican bulldogs announcing their readiness...and still enter....I will prevail with that arsenal of weapons.

Basically, the vest is already packing the co2 pistols and all loaded clips, the cx4 is charged (I've tested the shelf time here) and each co2 pistol requires a simple 1 twist to charge. I'm up, vest on, weapons systems ready and I'm coming at the intruder with 200 shots of 8 grain 600 fps....30 plugs at a time....you would be surprised at how hard that thing hits....I have no doubt that it will exact severe damage to a perp especially with 200 rounds....once the beretta clips are expended, the rifles come off the back vest custom holds and there are 2 more shots at .25. Again, you would be quite surprised at the power those rifles have and how hard they hit....one well landed patriot .25 round would be quite damaging....once the rifles are chucked, should I have to get I there for some close wet work, the pistols are there. Again, these are not 70s daisy BB guns....these things pack more of a punch then you might imagine.

Again, I'm not recommending this to anyone as the best method of HSD, but I will tell you, without a doubt, I'm  going to win the challenge and handily so. I doubt I would have to go past the cx4 and one rifle.

Anyway, just a fun little scenario I guess.
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: blademan on March 15, 2013, 10:42:12 PM
Sounds fun. Hatsan makes some repeating .25 rifles on a pcp platform. I hear awful things about Turkish firearms though, but have to admit I am considering one. Rather than all the complication and weight of your set up, I would recomend a larger caliber repeating or even single shot rifle from inside a hardened house with barriers and dogs (you mentioned bull dogs) the Rogue is a great gun for this but could be better if is wasn't so freakin big. I would like to make my own Caselman, but don't have the machining capability at the moment.
   One of the Korean air cannons in .45 or .50 even though they are single shot would be a good way to knock something down.
  If you want to use multiple smaller calibers, what you need is more than on shooter and a response protocol so you don't end up shooting each other's eyes out. EDGun makes some nice bullpup .25s that are supposed to be real babes to shoot, but they are all single shot. They one of the sexiest pcp air psitols I've ever seen. Its called the Veles. I think it means tree or forest spirit in Russian or something like that. They are ridiculously expensive because of the import and the quality, but they look like a serious enthusiast's gun. There's a guy on utube that really likes his. If you want to get some really good videos on how to use an airgun for pest or small game hunting, go watch this guy's vids, he is a surgeon with a air rifle out to 75 to 100 yards. That's an amazing shot for little airgun lit what he has. Almost silent too! Look it up, he uses a scope cam pretty well so its worth watching.
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: 21cygnus12 on March 18, 2013, 10:31:14 AM
Indeed...the Veles is beautiful; 800fps with 10 grain is better than anything I have in an air pistol. Very nice recommendation. I do have the fantastic RWS LP8 @ 700fps but that certainly is not with 10 grain. I will, however, proclaim that the LP8 is just a wonderful piece of engineering and manufacturing.

I have been thinking about a hardening plan, however, more of a plan that makes the interior of our home an "equalizer"....in that I mean steel plates hidden in the walls that preclude firearm rounds from going through the walls of my bedroom descent arena of operations :-)

My non-negotiable methodology....if an intruder enters our home....for better or worse, is to be the hunted not the hunter. My wonderful wife is slowly accepting my prodding to become firearm proficient and she has a bevy of capable rifles at her disposal behind our locked bedroom door (I should harden the door and close surrounding walls!). While I am forcefully and violently providing the forward, ground gaining protective mission, she will be prepared calmly behind locked doors with enough firepower and the knowledge to use it (not sure about the will yet) should I go down. 

Our home is our place of retreat...our lovingly decorated place of comfort and warmth and privacy. Our place of memories with our children and our place of solace. Shame on anyone for entering with ill intent and I will not hide. I will forcefully and violently defend what I have spent 30 years working for and crafting into a "home".

Let's hope more of our fellow americans will begin adopting a semi-overt style of proclaiming vigilance against wrong doers and those having nefarious intent!

Oooops....was I stepping up to the podium there? Sorry :-)

Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: blademan on March 18, 2013, 05:14:17 PM
Just a little bit, but no harm done. I would suggest rather than rushing in to danger while the fair maiden waits in the armory, you develope a dynamic plan for dealing with home defense situations. As for making the house more inaccessible, I have always thought that overhead rolling security doors would make a good reinforcement for windows and doors. Its a bit hard on the decor, but they could also be used to deny access to one section of the house from inside, such as putting them in a hallway in which bedrooms are located.
 You could get pretty sophisticated with it, but you don't have to. So this is a good discussion, I've really enjoyed it.
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: 21cygnus12 on March 18, 2013, 09:40:33 PM
It is a good discussion and I'm being challenged to think in new ways about HSD. That's always a good thing, ie to see different thoughts on a topic. The reality is that a less emotional ( yes I would like to bring violence to intruders....that may feel good but not be as effective) and more thoughtfully approached plan will likely serve the objective more effectively. Once a home invasion were to be in progress, the more logical and calmly implemented plan will likely be more effective....

I have concocted some entertaining outer perimeter defense ideas over the years....for instance earth grounded porch plate at each door and several hundred kV on the stealth conductive doors; pneumatic activated or spring loaded impaling rods that forcefully snap into place across window opening upon window breakage, just to name a few...I have no doubt these could be implemented, but the liability and legal issues are of concern....perhaps when we move to Texas.

I do like the internal perimeter draw gate or pull down "shield".... That could be easily hidden into the wall with a tape measure type spring mechanism...and with few exposed details that would upend the decor. That seems like a very doable and very cost effective measure and could be used to isolate bedrooms from rest of home. I like it....I don't like the hiding artifact that goes with it, but it would certainly allow for more calm preparation. If that was put into place along with a hidden entry from the bedroom zone into the rest of the home, one would have the element of surprise along with the preemptive planning ability. Probably be very few invaders that would come out breathing with that type of setup in place.

Good suggestion.....btw there is a whole Internet world of hidden room designs, methods and companies out there...you may be aware.

Now that would be quite an effective plan....present and safely hide behind the castle "gate". Intruders fully suspect that the valuables or people are cowering behind the overt barrier, then, bada bing, out comes the storm trooper from the covert passageway....

Love it.

Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: blademan on March 18, 2013, 10:50:06 PM
I'm not a pacifist by any means. However, if I can isolate myself from intruders and taunt them over a speaker while waiting for the blue boys to appear and take them away, I'm super happy to do that. If you can win a conflict without fighting, that is a great thing. The thing to remember is exit strategy, leave an out in case the situation changes in an unexpected way and you have to vacate or retreat. Windows could be secured by the same pull down overhead door type solution. Putting brag worthy used range targets in your windows is a good deterrent as well. Or you could go the James Yeager route and have brass mulch in your flowerbed under your windows. I always though cacti under windows was a good deterrent until I thought about having to exit through a window in a fire. Make sure you design your security features with the concept that you may need to be able to disable them quickly as well as enable them quickly. Injurous traps are a bad idea. They could get you, be used against you by a trusted person who turns on you or they could get an innocent by mistake. I wouldn't want to fry a diabetic person having low blood sugar or an insulin reaction who was confused and trying to get into my house because they thought it was theirs. Things change a bit in a WROL situation but the basic idea is to make getting in more trouble than what's inside is likely worth to them. If a door can be opened, then it can be opened and someone can always come through a wall.
   Have fun, stay safe and be careful.
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: livinitup0 on March 19, 2013, 03:40:02 PM
dangit blademan every time I go by the airguns at my local sporting goods store now I think of this thread....one of these days im going to end up leaving with a crossman.
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: caverdude on March 19, 2013, 09:57:18 PM
You didn't see the Rocford Files episode where he was shooting at the Mophia thug with a bb gun? He almost grazed an ear with it.
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: soupbone on March 20, 2013, 02:27:29 PM
 Trying to clear your house of a burglar or intruder is pretty much always a bad idea. Think going into the bush after a wounded cape buffalo, in the middle of the night, in your underwear and barefoot. Better to have a way to limit his access and mobility inside the house, and stay secure until the boys in blue get there. It's their job, and they're trained for it.

Being able to partition off sections of the house is a very good idea, one you might be able to accomplish with strong doors, security latches and deadbolts rather than the complication and expense of roll-ups. I like the idea of loud speakers to annoy or otherwise taunt the intruder. Coupled with CCTV so you can see/record his actions. The electronics are available at places like Radio Shack for doing it yourself. Being slowed down and finding himself unexpectedly facing a sophisticated defense system would convince the intruder that being someplace else is a very good idea. If that doesn't work, there are always remote control triggers for the CS/OC grenades you have hidden in the ceilings.:egyptian: Cleanup would be a bitch, but I'll bet you won't be broken into again. And the recording of his actions would probably get a million hits on YouTube....

Seriously, though, going one-on-one with somebody is never a good idea - you could get hurt. Popping away at sensitive areas with an airgun MIGHT be sufficient to persuade them to go somewhere else, but you'd better have backup - baseball bat, ball peen hammer, machete, etc., and be willing to use it. In this scenario, a fully automatic 400+ fps AirSoft gun directed at hosing down the face might make a persuasive argument. But only as a last resort - remember, some jurisdictions hold that using a gun-like object is legally the same as using a firearm.

soupbone

Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: blademan on March 20, 2013, 06:02:30 PM
BSorry livinitup, leave the crossmans alone if you are looking for power and go for a PCP. Precharged pneumatic. I spoke of these at some length earlier and won't inflict the thread with it again. The others less powerful ones CAN be lethat (that's what I'm looking for, not a plinker) IF you get LUCKY. You won't get lucky dependably. (Wouldn't life be nice if you did! Wink)
   Yeah, the overhead doors are a bit of a pain and getting the idea to pass your wife (or whatever) might be pretty much like getting the ok to move a supermodel into the spare room because "we need the extra money".
  The concept is really good though. Strong doors that look good also could work. But if you could take the overhead door and make it work horizontally so that you could hide it in a wall and not loose the strength, and make it easier to use, that might make it easier to accept.
   Yes, I agree that going it mano a mano is a bad idea, that's why getting and using training and learning how to configure your home to your greatest advantage and to the greatest detriment of an intruder is so important.
  If you can prevent the intrusion, or be and stay in control of it from the start without having to duke it out, that is a good way to go.
 
   
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: 21cygnus12 on March 21, 2013, 12:10:18 AM
I certainly agree with the partitioning....a very sound and effective idea. My HSD plan does have a vigilante component to it, and in no way am I condoning or suggesting it to others, however, it is what I want to do. I want to forcefully bring war to an intruder and I want to send a very strong, if not permanent, message.

I would also like to point out that some of the air guns available, and that I own are far far more serious than an air soft unit. I just purchased a Hatsan BT65 pcp at .25 cal..in the 60fpe neighborhood with a 9 shot rotary clip. And now as a backup I have the .25 patriot and .25 155 torpedo....unless you have fired these, you may be misinterpreting the hit they deliver. If you nail the perp 3 out of nine shots with the bt65, the session is going to be coming to a close quickly.

With the zoned home treatment, the element of surprise and the type of air guns I'm talking about, I believe one is very well positioned to take care of business. You ought to fire some of these things and you will see they are quite serious weapons.
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: 21cygnus12 on March 21, 2013, 12:28:51 AM
Oh....and don't forget about the good old canines. Thats a perimeter zone of its own.

When you are harboring dual 85lb American bulldogs....or even a single for that matter, I think the zoning and whatnot are likely gratuitous; not many intruders are going to want to deal with that situation. This breed is exceedingly vigilant and protective of their domain....and make nice blankets as well when it is chilly outside. My bigger fella is draped across my lap right now watching Southland with me ;-)

Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: blademan on March 21, 2013, 12:13:13 PM
Cygnus, I have seen the hatsan air rifles and have considered them. They seem very useful for hunting. I have heard that the Turks make some shoddy stuff but I don't know, so I am willing to give em a try.
  I wouldn't refuse to use a .25 for defense in either air or powder, but it would be about third on my list unless it was in my hand when I needed a trigger to pull. They tend to be more affordable and have higher round capacity than larger caliber rifles. Daystate has .303 cal that is advertised as a 100 yard gun. It uses a multi (10 I think) shot mag. Its called the Wolverine. Its a bit expensive and I think it uses a battery for the action.
   With the lower power of air rifles, it better to go as big as you can afford when all other things are more or less equal. The type of pellet is important too. This is a debate that could go on all day and I don't really want to do that. I would like to see some sabot rounds for air rifles that allow you to use smaller and lighter ammunition in higher power larger caliber air rifles. Such as a .30 cal pellet in a .45 or .50 so that you could get some real high power or extended range, kind of like being able to scale up and down with a shotgun. Perhaps a sabot round would be impractical for air guns for various reasons, but a barrel sleeve could be used to convert a larger caliber rifle to a smaller caliber one without damaging or permanently altering the rifle.
 FX also makes one called the verminator extreme. It has a long barrel, a carbine, a special barrel for shooting included arrows (I don't know if they are proprietary arrows) and a fishing reel that attaches to the gun to use the arrow for arrow fishing. It comes I think in .22 and .25. Its a PCP platform and one of the most expensive production air rifle I have seen.
  But it does have versatility and I have read some good reviews about it.
   So let's get this thread back on track. Its about airguns as home self defense. Its already established that it sucks and shouldn't be done or relied on for various and good reasons. What I want to do is now talk about how to do it in the case that you have to. The reason you have to is pretty irrelevant. This could be an air rifle by itself in a one on one situation, an airgun as part of gear kit for self and home defense. It could be just you or as part of a group with a mixed bag of weaponry, including or excluding firearms. It could be as mundane as a "run of the mill" home invasion or as far out as a WROL or EROL situation where you are fighting for your life more often than you are hunting for food or any situation in between.
  I would like to treat this as a serious study in how to use unconventional tactics and equipment in self and home defense situations.
  So, any takers? The floor is open!
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: armymars on March 21, 2013, 04:34:18 PM
Blademan, your a genius! A barrel liner. I may try that on my 36 cal. Quankenbush.
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: 21cygnus12 on March 21, 2013, 07:18:52 PM
I suggest we start here....perhaps to get a baseline....certainly if we are discussing airguns as self-defense we ought to have a feel for the capability....yes that says 171 meters.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTtO8_TqhIU



Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: blademan on March 22, 2013, 12:50:56 PM
Nice video cygnus. Over 300 feet and still going through a 1/2 or 3/4 inch board. Not bad at all. That raises that rifle in my estimation. That have a newer version with a synthetic stock that has slots just in front of the trigger and behind the foregrip that hold two loaded mags for quick relading.
   That's suprisingly more powerful than I was expecting. The accuracy was a bit lacking but at over 300 feet, that's probably to be expected out of that platform.
  And thanks ArmyMars, I was pretty impressed with the idea too. I was thinking that a sleeve for something like a 50 cal sam yang that would convert it to a .357 or a .25.  That would really rocket the pellet. Probably get some serious velocity out of it. You would probably have to recess and chamfer the breech of the barrel sort of like an inverted forcing cone on a revolver so that you get the most airflow possible, it would make it a little wonky to use but it would work. Depending on the design, a standard forcing cone design would work as well.
   Wish I had the money to get one of those hatsans, they look fun.
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: 21cygnus12 on March 22, 2013, 02:06:16 PM
Yes! Surprising was not my first thought, but, Surprising for sure. When I saw that video for the first time I was laughing in disbelief. That is over 500' at 171 meters and I believe that distance is true  based on the time delay between fire and hit. Without going too far out of bounds for the discussion you have proposed, then, I will proffer that this would be quite an effective air gun for HSD, and, I will add that HSD is rarely in the 500' area so accuracy should be quite good at, say, 50'. That is not substantiated of course.

Heck...lets see a top 5 airgun list...that one would keep in the closet for HSD. Also, remember you log onto amazon, press "order" and it arrives at your door; none of the Obamanomics or recently imposed gyrations to go through....there I go stepping towards that podium again; shameless.

I'm repeating myself when I say some folks are probably misinterpreting the ballistics of some of the modern airguns....this doodad here, the BT65, is quite a tool!

Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: blademan on March 22, 2013, 03:57:23 PM
well if i was going use a .25 itb would have to be the  evanix  mentioned above. there's one made by evanix, the conquest, its a 9mm 7 shot pcp. its battery powered but so is the rogue an the conquest is smaller. i will post more on this later.
 
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: caverdude on March 26, 2013, 04:58:28 PM
If you happen to be holding an air gun at the moment of the attack it might be great self defense tool
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: E.Huff on December 12, 2015, 05:16:30 PM
I just recently educated myself of air rifles and was quite surprised to see just how awesome they really are, an air rifle would definitely come in handy if something bad happened, in wooded areas with good camo or urban areas you could do some damage. In WW2 they used .22's and there's even stories of pellet guns being used to hit the enemy in the face at close distances to stay silent while others acted as distractions with real weapons. A .25 caliber air gun round i believe would easily kill someone if hit in the vital areas or stomach area, they are powerful little weapons, especially the ones they have today. I would love to buy one like the FX models with a longer barrel for a longer range setup if i had the money because they are really pretty quiet and about as accurate as it gets at 50 yrds, i think you can get some kind of suppressor or mods to make them even more quiet. They're light as well so it would be a very useful backup gun to carry with you in a war type scenario, I'd argue them being more useful than a backup hand gun in outdoor fighting anyways.
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: Lamewolf on June 21, 2017, 02:49:39 PM
No no and no

Good way to get shot. You don't bluff when it comes to self defense. If it is serious enough to need a gun to protect yourself then having something like that is just foolish.

Yeah, kind of like bringing a knife to a gun fight !
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: Carl on June 21, 2017, 06:11:26 PM
  While an air gun may seem like a good idea...it will get you killed.
Less than lethal rubber and bean bag ammo as maybe round one in a REAL shotgun and buckshot after that...you only have one life.
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: CagedFeral on July 07, 2017, 04:14:02 AM
I think you'd do better begging for your life while holding a blade hid behind your forearm.

I'd think if you pointed it at a bad guy you'd get shot 2-3 times. If you shot him with it he'd empty the mag and might be mad enough to reload.
Title: Re: Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?
Post by: Gamer on December 02, 2017, 02:06:40 AM
I am just wondering if anyone has any thoughts on airguns, specifically replicas being used as self defense..

I'd say forget it!
Pulling a replica or pellet gun on somebody would have one of several effects, namely it'd either make him run off, or it'd make him lunge at you in rage and rip you apart.
Or he could just stand there wth his arms open saying "Go on then, shoot!" and you'd be left wondering what to do next.
If he pulls a knife and comes at you, a pellet shot won't stop him, so what you gonna do then?
Of course, a worst case scenario is if he pulls a gun on you and starts blasting in self defence, and no jury would convict him..:)