The Survival Podcast Forum

Armory, Self Defense, And EDC => Firearms (Including Long Guns, Pistols) => General Firearm Discussion => Topic started by: whatzhizname on April 09, 2009, 02:46:56 PM

Title: Re: "Firearms for TEOTWAWKI" - Discussion Thread
Post by: whatzhizname on April 09, 2009, 02:46:56 PM
Since I've been writing this as I post, rather than composing it offline and then posting it I'm going to take a break to let my wrists rest.  :) I'm planning to add to this over time until it is a fairly comprehensive resource.  I also plan to rewrite the sections that have "filler" from Wikipedia currently.  I'd like it to eventually be something that can be put into a PDF and made available for new members of the community who are just starting out. :)
Whatz Hizname

***I've split the discussion portions of the main thread off from the info.  Feel free to discuss, ask questions or what ever you need to do in this new discussion thread.***

Thanks,
DEV
Title: Re:
Post by: BigDanInTX on April 09, 2009, 02:58:29 PM
Whatz Hizname, I'm sure I speak for everyone when I thank you for putting this together.  If you'd like, I can lock the thread to keep it cohesive until you are done.  =-]
Title: Re:
Post by: whatzhizname on April 09, 2009, 04:15:53 PM
Hey Dan,
That might be nice, as it would allow me to retain some continuity as I'm writing it.  If people have comments or suggestions they can post in a separate thread. :)  Thanks Big Dan!
Whatz Hizname
BTW.  Is there a way to edit my early posts?  I noticed that I had a couple typos, less than I feared considering I typed everything as I went in a single morning.  However, I can't seem to find the "modify" button on my earlier posts.
Title: Re:
Post by: whatzhizname on April 12, 2009, 03:12:48 PM
Hey Heavy G,
Thanks for checking it out.  :)  It's definitely a work in progress.  I'll definitely be adding sections on all basic types of firearms.  Next will be Shotguns, then Working firearms like hunting centerfires and .22s for harvesting game.  Then I'll do special purpose tools like non-hunting-optimized .22s, airguns, slingshots, bows, crossbows, single-shot shotguns for caching/trading, airsoft for training, and other special-niche items.  Once I've completed everything, I'm hoping to go back and do some editing and rework it as a manuscript to make it available as a PDF book (or even through Lulu) if Jack or another survival/prep-oriented site is willing to host it. :)
Thanks again,
Whatz Hizname :)
Title: Re:
Post by: PistolWhipped on April 12, 2009, 09:34:03 PM
If you'd like a little help with handguns, I'd be honored to assist.  I do know my way around a pistol pretty well (or am a handgun snob, depending on whom you ask :) ).
Title: Re:
Post by: Heavy G on April 13, 2009, 08:51:27 AM
Whatz Hizname:

Sweet.  May I humbly suggest a sentence in your AR-15 section on adding a .22LR converstion bolt to the gun for cheap shooting practice. 

Here's a link to a review of a converstion bolt I did on TSP: http://thesurvivalpodcast.com/forum/index.php?topic=2817.0 (http://thesurvivalpodcast.com/forum/index.php?topic=2817.0)
Title: Re:
Post by: wbo3 on April 13, 2009, 09:06:04 AM
Awesome Thread, is this going to be consolidated into a PDF in the future so we can download and/or print it?
Title: Re:
Post by: Chris Redfield on April 13, 2009, 12:01:21 PM
Whatz,

Your image for the Mini-14 is broken (Tripod doesn't allow hotlinking)

I can also turn this into a print-friendly PDF for you once it's done, unless you're already planning on doing this yourself.

Thanks!
Title: Re:
Post by: whatzhizname on April 13, 2009, 01:01:08 PM
If you'd like a little help with handguns, I'd be honored to assist.  I do know my way around a pistol pretty well (or am a handgun snob, depending on whom you ask :) ).

PistolWhipped,
I'd welcome any assistance. :) You can tell by the layout how I'm structuring this (eventual) PDF book so if you want to follow the template I'm using you could post an entry (or multiple entries) about a handgun (using Wiki or another open "free" source) and then include PISTOLWHIPPED NOTES.  :)


Quote
Sweet.  May I humbly suggest a sentence in your AR-15 section on adding a .22LR converstion bolt to the gun for cheap shooting practice.

I was going to include information about conversions and sub-caliber devices in the "Special Equipment" section, but you're correct a brief sentence in the AR-15 writeup would get the existence of such devices on a reader's radar and then they could read more about them in the other section. :)
Quote
Awesome Thread, is this going to be consolidated into a PDF in the future so we can download and/or print it?

Yes!  That's why I'm writing it. :)  As a resource for anyone who wants to explore the use of firearms as part of a TEOTWAWKI plan.  I'm trying something different and composing each post as I go (writing it online basically).  So far it's been working. :)

Quote
Your image for the Mini-14 is broken (Tripod doesn't allow hotlinking)

I can also turn this into a print-friendly PDF for you once it's done, unless you're already planning on doing this yourself.

I noticed that the day I started this thread, but can't seem to go back and edit older posts (I'm not sure why) so I'll correct it in the PDF version.  Thanks for pointing it out. 
As far as the PDF, that would be great.  My only question would be using images from Wiki or other sources.  I don't want to get into copyright issues.  That said, I welcome the help of compiling it into a print-friendly PDF when it's done being written.  Then I'm hoping Jack can maybe host it here or Kev from http://www.survivalistboards.com/ .  I'm just doing it to help the community, and because I liked Mel Tappan's book when I was a kid. 

Title: Re:
Post by: Chris Redfield on April 13, 2009, 08:21:33 PM
As far as the PDF, that would be great.  My only question would be using images from Wiki or other sources.  I don't want to get into copyright issues.  That said, I welcome the help of compiling it into a print-friendly PDF when it's done being written.  Then I'm hoping Jack can maybe host it here or Kev from http://www.survivalistboards.com/ .  I'm just doing it to help the community, and because I liked Mel Tappan's book when I was a kid. 

Best solution here is to ask TSP forum members for pictures of their own personal guns, and permission to use them in the PDF guide - that adds a personal touch! :)

Failing that, as long as you're not planning to sell this book, that would fall under the "Fair Use" guidelines, as you're not trying to profit off the photos and they are being used for illustrative and representative purposes only.
Title: Re:
Post by: whatzhizname on April 13, 2009, 10:03:11 PM
Best solution here is to ask TSP forum members for pictures of their own personal guns, and permission to use them in the PDF guide - that adds a personal touch! :)

Failing that, as long as you're not planning to sell this book, that would fall under the "Fair Use" guidelines, as you're not trying to profit off the photos and they are being used for illustrative and representative purposes only.

Thanks for the idea Chris.  I had thought of asking people if they'd be willing to share pictures of the various firearm models.  That way if we did try to print something as a book later (for people who prefer hard copy) we wouldn't run into the rights "stuff" of pics found online.  For now, however, I think we're in fair use territory as I'm just planning for this to be a downloadable PDF resource for the time being.  I do plan to add some to each of the previous sections too before finalizing anything, but wanted to get something started for people new to firearms and thought it would be worth posting as I went. :)
Title: Re: Re: "Firearms for TEOTWAWKI" - Discussion Thread
Post by: BigDanInTX on April 13, 2009, 11:57:52 PM
If you can snag images from places like Wikipedia Commons, there is a fair use license in place.  =-]
Title: Re: "Firearms for TEOTWAWKI" - Discussion Thread
Post by: Chris Redfield on April 14, 2009, 08:03:56 AM
A related post that might be good is this discussion of "springs wear out":
http://thesurvivalpodcast.com/forum/index.php?topic=4554.msg45522#msg45522

Just in terms of keeping things loaded.
Title: Re: "Firearms for TEOTWAWKI" - Discussion Thread
Post by: PistolWhipped on April 14, 2009, 09:49:35 AM
Got the big part of the revolver section up.  Going to finish and go into autoloaders and finish with rifle caliber pistols later.  Got the space reserved.  Sticking to common calibers to simplify things.
Title: Re: "Firearms for TEOTWAWKI" - Discussion Thread
Post by: whatzhizname on April 14, 2009, 10:19:31 AM
Nicely done, PistolWhipped. It's nice to collaborate with you! :)
Title: Re: "Firearms for TEOTWAWKI" - Discussion Thread
Post by: Chris Redfield on April 14, 2009, 11:36:21 AM
Not sure if there's any market for it - but maybe I could chip in a "For Canadians Only - Surviving In A Socialist State?" section? ;)

I joke, but only a little. For those who don't know, the Canadian firearms restrictions make California look downright friendly in many situations.
Title: Re: "Firearms for TEOTWAWKI" - Discussion Thread
Post by: PistolWhipped on April 19, 2009, 10:01:43 AM
Been REALLY busy with work, going to work on the next section of Autoloaders tomorrow.
Title: Re: "Firearms for TEOTWAWKI" - Discussion Thread
Post by: whatzhizname on April 20, 2009, 05:49:04 PM
There could definitely be a section for people living "in occupied territories" like Canada, Europe and Australia.  Perhaps even alternatives could be offered to fill the various roles (ie. a fast lever action as a Defensive Rifle or a target pistol as a sidearm).  Not a bad idea and we'll see how it fits the subject matter. :)
Title: Re: "Firearms for TEOTWAWKI" - Discussion Thread
Post by: Heavy G on April 20, 2009, 06:29:04 PM
One idea: mention some where around cleaning and maintenance that you can go to Youtube, type in the name of your gun in the search engine, and probably have several good how-to videos on field stripping, cleaning, etc.
Title: Re: "Firearms for TEOTWAWKI" - Discussion Thread
Post by: dhallftworth on April 20, 2009, 06:30:42 PM
That's where I learned to strip my 44 DE
Title: Re: "Firearms for TEOTWAWKI" - Discussion Thread
Post by: PistolWhipped on April 21, 2009, 10:07:39 AM
Hmm, I can't see the whole thread from My PC right now.  Hope those last 2 posts got in.
Title: Re: "Firearms for TEOTWAWKI" - Discussion Thread
Post by: PistolWhipped on April 26, 2009, 09:58:30 PM
Sorry about the sporadic updates.  Work is mauling me.  I'll work on suggested Handguns for the Survivalist next post (or 2, I am recommending a fair few).
Title: Re: "Firearms for TEOTWAWKI" - Discussion Thread
Post by: Heavy G on April 27, 2009, 07:57:24 AM
Thanks again for doing this.  I understand the mauling at work thing, which makes me appreciate what you're doing even more.

How about a cleaning and maintenance section?  I can't remember, maybe someone else suggested this.

You could have a general cleaning section and then maybe some little sections relating to a particular gun in that gun's section.

For the general cleaning section something like "clean from the action to the end of the barrel."  And "don't nick the crown."  And "if you use solvent, and have plastic or rubber grips or other non-metal parts, make sure it's synthetic-safe" and "cover scope ends so you don't get cleaning solvent or oil on them." 

For a gun-specific section like for shotguns: "get a bore snake for the gauge of your shotgun and lube the action once in a while."  For revolvers, "get a short handgun cleaning rod and clean the cylinders."  For the 10/22 "you can't clean from the action to the end of barrel so either be careful and clean it from the end of the barrel or get an Otis pull-through cleaning kit."

That kind of thing.  Most sections will either not have a specific cleaning instruction or a short one like those above.
Title: Re: "Firearms for TEOTWAWKI" - Discussion Thread
Post by: PistolWhipped on April 27, 2009, 11:37:01 PM
Looks like the Glock got it's own whole post.
Title: Re: "Firearms for TEOTWAWKI" - Discussion Thread
Post by: PistolWhipped on May 03, 2009, 11:20:44 PM
Anyone wanna throw out some autoloader handgun recommendations I haven't mentioned?  I've shot a lot, so if I have, I'll note it.  If not, then I'll look into reviews.  Anyone's personal reviews would be appreciated.
Title: Re: "Firearms for TEOTWAWKI" - Discussion Thread
Post by: Heavy G on May 04, 2009, 07:51:03 AM
One idea for the cleaning and maintenance section is the Otis pull-through cleaning cord:

http://www.otisgun.com/cgistore/store.cgi?page=/new/fhowto.html&setup=1&cart_id= (http://www.otisgun.com/cgistore/store.cgi?page=/new/fhowto.html&setup=1&cart_id=)

They work on some guns that have blocked breeches for traditional breech to muzzle cleaning, like a 10/22.

They work on every kind of gun, from .17 HMR to 12 gauge, rifle, pistol, shotgun, you name it.
Title: Re: "Firearms for TEOTWAWKI" - Discussion Thread
Post by: PistolWhipped on May 10, 2009, 10:46:47 PM
Well, if no one has any pistol requests, I guess I'll turn it back over to you whatzhizname.
Title: Re: "Firearms for TEOTWAWKI" - Discussion Thread
Post by: Spamity Calamity on May 12, 2009, 08:44:29 PM
Shoot I seem to have posted in the pdf construction thread not seeing the discussion thread can someone please move my post from there to here?
Title: Re: "Firearms for TEOTWAWKI" - Discussion Thread
Post by: koyote on April 07, 2010, 12:45:41 PM
I'm looking through, how is this project coming along? There's been some interesting developments in the airgun world over the past year or so, and there are non-custom, production, medium game airguns readily available now as well as a new crop of very high performance small game guns. In stock trim, the classic, heavy, brass benji has been superseded.

Title: Re: "Firearms for TEOTWAWKI" - Discussion Thread
Post by: templar223 on May 25, 2010, 01:49:19 PM
I'm looking through, how is this project coming along?


Good question.

Get training then worry about gun selection.

Seriously, training is probably more important than gun selection, within reason of course.

John
Title: Re: "Firearms for TEOTWAWKI" - Discussion Thread
Post by: ZenGunFighter on May 25, 2010, 02:03:47 PM
+1 ^

Title: Re: "Firearms for TEOTWAWKI" - Discussion Thread
Post by: PistolWhipped on June 01, 2010, 08:45:29 PM

Good question.

Get training then worry about gun selection.

Seriously, training is probably more important than gun selection, within reason of course.

John

Obviously, but having all the training in the world will do no good without a rifle when you need it.  My opinion, get a working rifle, and then learn how to use it, not the other way around.

Though I agree, training is vital.  I have James Yeager's Fighting Rifle and Fighting Pistol DVDs, and a lot of free space to practice.
Title: Re: "Firearms for TEOTWAWKI" - Discussion Thread
Post by: RacinRob on June 01, 2010, 09:01:08 PM
Well, if no one has any pistol requests, I guess I'll turn it back over to you whatzhizname.

Sorry to be late to the party.... But 2 I would add are the S&W M&P and the HK USP descendants.  Such as, the p2000 and the HK45/P30/p30s.  I guess I think it is a little silly to go and buy a USP new since the HK45/p30/p30s can be had for about the same amount of money.  Maybe add them as notes to the USP since there isn't too many differences in how they work but IMHO they are much more comfy.
Title: Re: "Firearms for TEOTWAWKI" - Discussion Thread
Post by: PistolWhipped on June 01, 2010, 09:18:34 PM
NP.  I figured the USP actually covers the USP descendants, but I can't believe I forgot the M&Ps.  I'll work on them later.
Title: Re: "Firearms for TEOTWAWKI" - Discussion Thread
Post by: templar223 on June 08, 2010, 03:00:59 PM
Obviously, but having all the training in the world will do no good without a rifle when you need it.  My opinion, get a working rifle, and then learn how to use it, not the other way around.

Though I agree, training is vital.  I have James Yeager's Fighting Rifle and Fighting Pistol DVDs, and a lot of free space to practice.

And a rifle without training will do you little good if you can't fight with said rifle.

Let's just say we have a difference of opinion about training.  I've seen plenty of students in my courses - hundreds in fact - that couldn't make three hits at 100 yards with their rifles FROM PRONE!  No warm ups.  No excuses.  Pull the rifle out, get set up and make three good hits on an Army AQT target. 

In my urban rifle classes, I see more of the same - and add in malfunction prone guns (not the guns, but the upkeep & preventative maintenance or lack thereof), fumbling, inability to manipulate controls, poor gear and ammo selection, and the list goes on and on.

These are the very people you're talking about 'better get a rifle and worry about how to use it later'.

Buying a piano doesn't make you a musician.  So why in the heck would you buy a gun and rely on it to save your life in a critical incident without getting training?

Also, even the BEST DVDs on how to use a gun aren't nearly as good as the worst training class.

Shop around, find a good training class and you'll be absolutely amazed at how little you knew before learning how to fight with your gun(s).

I'd start with a handgun class, then take a rifle class and if you're a training junkie, then take a knife class then a first-aid class.

Why?

You carry a handgun everyday, right?   That's first priority.

What would be your preferred tool if trouble was headed your way?  The rifle.

Why knife?  If you're close in to a BG (6'-9' or less), your pistol will do you no good until you deal with the knife he's wielding.

Why first aid?  It's the neighborly thing to do to save your friend's life or maybe your own if you get hurt.  (That's why your spouses should be CPR-trained at the very least!)

There are too many people worried about "What gun for SHTF?" that don't know very much about how to USE that tool.  Get training.  Then worry about the gun.

As an added bonus, good gun training is compatible with any make or model of firearm in that particular platform.  I'll shoot the rifleman's standard with a Garand, M4, or an SKS - well, a good SKS.  And more importantly, I can fight with said guns as well, thanks to a couple hundred hours of training from some of the best in the nation including Rogers, Farnam and Sullivan to name a few.

John
Title: Re: "Firearms for TEOTWAWKI" - Discussion Thread
Post by: RacinRob on June 08, 2010, 06:37:25 PM
And a rifle without training will do you little good if you can't fight with said rifle.

Let's just say we have a difference of opinion about training.  I've seen plenty of students in my courses - hundreds in fact - that couldn't make three hits at 100 yards with their rifles FROM PRONE!  No warm ups.  No excuses.  Pull the rifle out, get set up and make three good hits on an Army AQT target. 

In my urban rifle classes, I see more of the same - and add in malfunction prone guns (not the guns, but the upkeep & preventative maintenance or lack thereof), fumbling, inability to manipulate controls, poor gear and ammo selection, and the list goes on and on.

These are the very people you're talking about 'better get a rifle and worry about how to use it later'.

Buying a piano doesn't make you a musician.  So why in the heck would you buy a gun and rely on it to save your life in a critical incident without getting training?

Also, even the BEST DVDs on how to use a gun aren't nearly as good as the worst training class.

Shop around, find a good training class and you'll be absolutely amazed at how little you knew before learning how to fight with your gun(s).

I'd start with a handgun class, then take a rifle class and if you're a training junkie, then take a knife class then a first-aid class.

Why?

You carry a handgun everyday, right?   That's first priority.

What would be your preferred tool if trouble was headed your way?  The rifle.

Why knife?  If you're close in to a BG (6'-9' or less), your pistol will do you no good until you deal with the knife he's wielding.

Why first aid?  It's the neighborly thing to do to save your friend's life or maybe your own if you get hurt.  (That's why your spouses should be CPR-trained at the very least!)

There are too many people worried about "What gun for SHTF?" that don't know very much about how to USE that tool.  Get training.  Then worry about the gun.

As an added bonus, good gun training is compatible with any make or model of firearm in that particular platform.  I'll shoot the rifleman's standard with a Garand, M4, or an SKS - well, a good SKS.  And more importantly, I can fight with said guns as well, thanks to a couple hundred hours of training from some of the best in the nation including Rogers, Farnam and Sullivan to name a few.

John

I don't get it?  Don't you do both? Buy the best gun that you can (or a 10/22) and then get training with it? 
Title: Re: "Firearms for TEOTWAWKI" - Discussion Thread
Post by: templar223 on June 09, 2010, 10:08:49 AM
I don't get it?  Don't you do both? Buy the best gun that you can (or a 10/22) and then get training with it? 

My mistake on lack of clarification:

Sure, get a basic gun (10/22 or a clean, iron sight center-fire rifle) then take some classes.  If you don't have a rifle, don't sweat it!  Most shooting schools will have loaner guns if you bring the ammo, tuition and a willingness to learn.  You might even have a chance to try various types of guns (AK vs. AR) or even brands and subtypes (piston vs. impingement ARs, SKS vs. AK-type) to see what works well for you and your budget.

The problem comes in when people without training buy a rifle and foolishly put all sorts of crap on it because of what they read somewhere and at that point they believe they are "ready" for SHTF.   You can't buy proficiency in a box.  You need instruction and practice - and more practice.  Rinse and repeat. 

Practice without instruction first is often just reinforcing bad habits and flawed form.

John
Title: Re: "Firearms for TEOTWAWKI" - Discussion Thread
Post by: RightArmOfWyoming on July 02, 2010, 12:46:42 PM
There could definitely be a section for people living "in occupied territories" like Canada, Europe and Australia.

Blow gun.

I think the reason so many guys hunt with bows in Wyoming is that they've had they're gun rights taken away from some past felony charge.

MWD
Title: Re: "Firearms for TEOTWAWKI" - Discussion Thread
Post by: whatzhizname on July 16, 2010, 12:01:27 PM
I definitely would like to add a section for people living in Canada, Australia, the UK, etc. and have been doing a little research to that end.  I'm hoping to get back up to speed on finishing up this book and then offering it as a PDF download for Jack's audience and maybe do a limited print-run as well.  Like so many things in life it just takes time to get a project shepherded through to completion.  :)
Title: Re: "Firearms for TEOTWAWKI" - Discussion Thread
Post by: RightArmOfWyoming on July 16, 2010, 03:37:28 PM
I definitely would like to add a section for people living in Canada, Australia, the UK, etc. and have been doing a little research to that end. 

Airsoft and slingshots!

MWD
Title: Re: "Firearms for TEOTWAWKI" - Discussion Thread
Post by: PistolWhipped on July 22, 2010, 11:36:51 PM
And a rifle without training will do you little good if you can't fight with said rifle.

Let's just say we have a difference of opinion about training.  I've seen plenty of students in my courses - hundreds in fact - that couldn't make three hits at 100 yards with their rifles FROM PRONE!  No warm ups.  No excuses.  Pull the rifle out, get set up and make three good hits on an Army AQT target. 

In my urban rifle classes, I see more of the same - and add in malfunction prone guns (not the guns, but the upkeep & preventative maintenance or lack thereof), fumbling, inability to manipulate controls, poor gear and ammo selection, and the list goes on and on.

These are the very people you're talking about 'better get a rifle and worry about how to use it later'.

Buying a piano doesn't make you a musician.  So why in the heck would you buy a gun and rely on it to save your life in a critical incident without getting training?

Also, even the BEST DVDs on how to use a gun aren't nearly as good as the worst training class.

Shop around, find a good training class and you'll be absolutely amazed at how little you knew before learning how to fight with your gun(s).

I'd start with a handgun class, then take a rifle class and if you're a training junkie, then take a knife class then a first-aid class.

Why?

You carry a handgun everyday, right?   That's first priority.

What would be your preferred tool if trouble was headed your way?  The rifle.

Why knife?  If you're close in to a BG (6'-9' or less), your pistol will do you no good until you deal with the knife he's wielding.

Why first aid?  It's the neighborly thing to do to save your friend's life or maybe your own if you get hurt.  (That's why your spouses should be CPR-trained at the very least!)

There are too many people worried about "What gun for SHTF?" that don't know very much about how to USE that tool.  Get training.  Then worry about the gun.

As an added bonus, good gun training is compatible with any make or model of firearm in that particular platform.  I'll shoot the rifleman's standard with a Garand, M4, or an SKS - well, a good SKS.  And more importantly, I can fight with said guns as well, thanks to a couple hundred hours of training from some of the best in the nation including Rogers, Farnam and Sullivan to name a few.

John

I don't disagree with you on training my friend, I just feel it is easier to train when you have a rifle of your own to use, as opposed to a beater of a loaner that has been shot to death at whichever gun school you attend. 

I know I at least maintain my weapons, and keep them in working order.  I can't say the same for a guy who is scrubbing the carbon out of the gas tube on the 7th AR he's cleaned today.  Same when I go to the pistol range, I know most pistols I bring are going to be cleaned and maintained meticulously, and I know that many of the other guns the range rents 6 or 7 times a day will be less cared for.
Title: Re: "Firearms for TEOTWAWKI" - Discussion Thread
Post by: Heavy G on October 23, 2010, 07:40:13 AM
Another great resource for gun research and comparison is gunup.com.

Here's a thread on it: http://thesurvivalpodcast.com/forum/index.php?topic=21934.new#new (http://thesurvivalpodcast.com/forum/index.php?topic=21934.new#new)
Title: Re: "Firearms for TEOTWAWKI" - Discussion Thread
Post by: Paulie on October 30, 2010, 09:55:12 AM
Hi Whatzhizname.

I really enjoyed your firearms for TEOTWAKI article. I had not been aware of the existence of the .357 sig before I saw it in your article. I did notice that you don’t make mention of any double rifles and shotguns.

One of the first firearms I was thinking of grabbing is my Savage M24 in 22LR and 20GA, so as a fairly new prepper I am wondering if that would be a bad choice and why?  ???

Thanks
Paulie
Title: Re: "Firearms for TEOTWAWKI" - Discussion Thread
Post by: tween on August 04, 2011, 06:56:42 PM
a more pertinent question might be how one is going to carry more than one longarm, when shtf? If it is not at hand, what good is it for you, hmm? do you really believe a gang of looters is going to let you go trade that short ranged shotgun or .22 or slow repeat shot bolt action for your ak? Of course they are not and you dare not risk not having that fighting rifle at all times. So the issue becomes one of picking the most versatile fighting rifle, does it not?  The models for which there are .22lr conversion units are the most versatile, it is a big "hit" against a longarm (as a shtf choice) if it does not offer a way to use the quiet, readilly available .22lr rd, as well as being able to take deer to 200 yds or so, or snipe men to 1/4 mile or more. 

You don't need a shotgun. Birds are not worth a shotshell if shtf means you can't replace that big, heavy, bulky shell, and it's too noisy for no more meat than you get. Each shot is likely to call in your killers, remember that.  Birds land, critters stop moving, and a quiet .22lr can take them easily. So can traps, and traps can be working for you 24-7, and in 50 locations at once. Trotlines, fish traps, and gill nets are the primo ways of gathering flesh food, really, not hunting, especially not shotgun blasting at small game.
Title: Re: "Firearms for TEOTWAWKI" - Discussion Thread
Post by: PistolWhipped on August 04, 2011, 09:16:12 PM
"Need" is dictated by numerous criteria.   Availability, Legality, Familiarity, Cost, etc. 

A shotgun is capable of taking small game, killing attackers, and stopping bear all in the same package.  They are legal in countries where rifles are regulated or even banned.  Their ammo is common.  They and their ammo is affordable.  At relatively close ranges, it is unmatched in terminal lethality, on man or beast.

It may not be ideal for everything, nothing ever is, but it is a versatile tool, and a practical firearms battery would be incomplete without it.
Title: Re: "Firearms for TEOTWAWKI" - Discussion Thread
Post by: tween on August 05, 2011, 05:00:50 PM
Like Tappan, you assume things are going to be about 100x better than they will be, if shtf. There won't be time or utility for anything but a fighting rifle, and maybe a pocket pistol. Cannibalism will be a commonplace event within 3 months of the power's going out.
Title: Re: "Firearms for TEOTWAWKI" - Discussion Thread
Post by: PistolWhipped on August 05, 2011, 07:03:47 PM
I have no illusions as to the state of many things.  I also don't think I'll be a nomad carrying everything I own on my back, fighting roving hoardes of brigands.  I have a fighting rifle, an AK variant.  I also have a hunting shotgun, and an pricing a fighting shotgun.  It is possibly the penultimate close range/base defense long arm, especially when engaging fast moving targets in close range environments.

I can make a .22 bolt gun work if I need to.  And my fighting rifle, the 7.62x39 AK, can be used for 99% of what I'd need a full caliber rifle for.  But I also don't  expect the absolute zombie apocalypse.  If it happens I have the ammo to handle it for a while, it's just not the most realistic situation to prepare for.

As for weapon transitions, you walk around with the AK in hand, and switch to the other weapon (if I were walking around with 2 long guns, rifle 2 would be a long range bolt action) if the opportunity presents.  And I can transition to handgun in a flash (dive through sling straight into drawstroke) so it's not nearly as hard or time consuming as you make it out to be.  It's the craftsman, not the tool.
Title: Re: "Firearms for TEOTWAWKI" - Discussion Thread
Post by: Mr. Bill on August 05, 2011, 07:12:48 PM
a more pertinent question might be how one is going to carry more than one longarm, when shtf?

A wheelbarrow might work.
Title: Re: "Firearms for TEOTWAWKI" - Discussion Thread
Post by: tween on August 06, 2011, 02:39:25 AM
Less than 10% of the US population hunts, and for less than 10% of the time. Still, if it were not for bag limits, regs against baiting and jacklighting, etc, the game would all be gone. Now imagine dog packs running all the bigger animals, and starving cats catching all the small stuff, and everyone trapping and taking advantage of all ways of hunting. The animals will all be gone in a month, once the power goes off.

the reason many think they need a long range bolt action is the Ak is at best a 250 m rifle.  Get an AR and be able to reach 500 yd men and you wont need to bother.  The need, at all times, to be also carrying 30-40 lbs of survival gear, because at any time, you can be "cut off" from your base of supply. Carrying 2 longarms is a impractical. So is hunting for food. It's not going to be feasible.

***edited to remove personal attack.***
Title: Re: "Firearms for TEOTWAWKI" - Discussion Thread
Post by: TANK on September 11, 2011, 02:44:50 PM
I hope I did this correctly and I'm not breaking rules, If you need to get rid of this, I just thought the information would be useful.

http://shtfamerica.blogspot.com/p/weapons.html

There is some interesting stuff on this link

Tank
Title: Re: "Firearms for TEOTWAWKI" - Discussion Thread
Post by: Heavy G on September 18, 2011, 06:16:48 AM
Nothing wrong at all, TANK.

Thanks for the link.
Title: Re: "Firearms for TEOTWAWKI" - Discussion Thread
Post by: TANK on September 18, 2011, 07:20:51 AM
Ok here we go. The topic is, (Firearms for TEOTWAWKI.) My thinking is the type and caliber/ gauge of firearm for the individual use, hunting self defence or both. I look at the type and caliber/gauge first. My first pick for a handgun would be a Glock model 22 or 23 in 40 caliber a altertive would be a 9mm model 17,19 as I really like the Glock family. my second pick would be the Sig model 226 in 40 caliber. My third pick would be a Berrata Model 92 in 9mm. Some weapon for backup or conceled carry I perfer the Glock model 23 as this is my edc.

The reason I have picked these is due to battle field pickup. Several Police Department carry the Glock 40 caliber guns, and several Departments carry the Sig 40 caliber guns with the 40 caliber in the area, maybe the battle field pickup would be easy ammo available. The reason for the 9mm, the military carries the Berrata model 92 as well as several other countries and the 9mm as a nato round. No Police Department in this area carries the 9mm or the 45 acp.

Shotgun   First pick would be a Mosseberg Model 500 12 ga. with different barrels, for tactial and hunting applications,and a Mosseberg model 500 in 20 ga. with different barrels for my wife. I would have several single barrel break open 12 ga and 20 ga. shotgun for different stashes. My second pick would be Remington 870 in the above gauges and barrels. I would not go with a semi-auto shotgun for a shtf situation too many things could go wrong with a semi-auto shotgun. Unless you went with a Saga, I don't think the barrels of a Saga are interchangeable.  But I'm looking at the cost factor as well. By haveing these model of shotguns, they are inexpensive and work everytime the trigger is pulled.

Now for a rifle, I would have an AR-15 Manufacture at this time I don't thing would be an issue. Although some Departments around this area are chosing the Sig 556 or the Rock Island. I thing for the gas piston the use. I would not have less that 7 mags 30 round each. My second pick for a rifle would be a Ruger Mini-14. 

Title: Re: "Firearms for TEOTWAWKI" - Discussion Thread
Post by: Heavy G on September 18, 2011, 02:58:13 PM
TANK:

Awesome picks (mainly because I agree with them).

On the .40 versus 9mm topic, here's a thread on that: http://thesurvivalpodcast.com/forum/index.php?topic=20784.msg224438#msg224438 (http://thesurvivalpodcast.com/forum/index.php?topic=20784.msg224438#msg224438)
Title: Re: "Firearms for TEOTWAWKI" - Discussion Thread
Post by: TANK on September 18, 2011, 04:39:13 PM
I like the .40 better because in this area the .40 is wide spread, some other area a different caliber may be wide spread. I was reading in some areas the 10 mm is used mostly because of the dangerous game. Which the 10 mm is almost exactly like the 41 mag. but with 15 rounds of 10 mm in a glock model 20 is a lot of medicine for dangerous game. I have a couple of 9mm and can't say anything bad about them if the right ammo is used.Full metal jacket ( hard ball) has a good reputation of over peneration. Talking with some solders from Iraq and stans. They tell me with hard ball several shots are needed to put a bad guy down. and the same with 5.56 hard ball.

I understand in the U.P. of Michigan the law enforcement carries M-14 in .308 in the cars because of the could be dangerous game, (black bears, couger, wolfs, and so on.)  I do understand some areas the law enforcement are now trading in their 40 cal for the 45 acp in these areas I would like the 45 acp better if nothing but for ammo availability, ( battle field pickup).
Thanks for the reply
Tank
Title: Re: "Firearms for TEOTWAWKI" - Discussion Thread
Post by: Cannon on September 19, 2011, 06:06:30 PM
Tank, I do like your picks :)  I've been thinking of getting a Berreta 96fs to add to the collection.  I'm also really considering a Mossberg 500 12 ga in the configuration you've described.

Talking with some solders from Iraq and stans. They tell me with hard ball several shots are needed to put a bad guy down. and the same with 5.56 hard ball.

It's interesting that this theme keeps popping up.  I think that part of the problem is that a significant portion of the military simply is issued and consumes ammunition without being particularly required to understand the 5 W's.

Army Soldiers are typically issued both the M4 Carbine (14.5" barrel) and M855 5.56x45mm ammunition, which was designed for a number of reasons that don't include engaging unarmored mal-nutritioned combatants at short range.  Please note that I'm not attempting to infer anything.  The average enemy combatant simply isn't wearing body armor, or a well fed infantry soldier of a modern military force.  The shot impact on the typical battlefield casualty is often not sufficient enough to cause the M855 round to reach its optimal damage potential (penetration of 7-10 inches before it begins yawing), thus causing substandard performance.  (Research (http://ammo.ar15.com/ammo/project/term_m855yaw.html)).  Having said that, though, proper shot placement is effective no matter what the caliber in question is.

If you look at the history of the commonly available NATO rounds, you'll see that they were developed and accepted for very specific reasons.  Some of those reasons were simply requests for standardization, or to conform to Laws of War.

Personally:

I do keep some M855 around for the steel penetrator core, but I'm typically looking for a more dense (77gr) round to perform a job like shooting through a windshield.  For home defense, a medium velocity soft point or hollow point should do the trick without having to worry about over penetration.  There's just so much ammo out there for the .223/5.56mm platform, and most of the problem is matching the ammo to the rifle and intent.

9mm FMJ NATO also follows a similar history, and for defensive use you won't find anything but hollow point in my pistols.  I'm a .40 guy, so the same rule applies there.  I personally believe that the shooter has a responsibility to minimize secondary effects, and FMJ will typically punch right on through a target and maintain enough velocity to, say, punch through a wall. 

Title: Re: "Firearms for TEOTWAWKI" - Discussion Thread
Post by: TANK on September 20, 2011, 07:01:30 AM
The reason the military can only use full metal jacket or (hard ball) is because of the Geneva and Hague Conventions.   

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Conventions#Common_Article_3_relating_to_Non-International_Armed_Conflict

Besides in war, a wounded solder requires more people to care for them, than a dead solder.

But in a teotwawki situation we are not governed by either conventions. Although I do have soft point, and hollow point ammo for hunting. I perfer to have on hand hard ball only because of the expense. I can buy about 3 times the amount of hard ball as I can the soft or hollow point stuff. I believe in a teotwawki situation looters and rioters are not going to be very well trained. So with that in mind the first couple of shots are going to scatter most people, and if I'm wrong, people coming thru the door aint gonna like their reception.