The Survival Podcast Forum

Armory, Self Defense, And EDC => Martial Arts, Unarmed Self Defense, Hand To Hand Combat, and Physical Fitness => Topic started by: ModernSurvival on April 17, 2009, 09:29:20 AM

Title: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: ModernSurvival on April 17, 2009, 09:29:20 AM
OK help me out folks a person asked me "what is the best home defense weapon if you can't own a gun",  I mentioned it and this thread on today's show.

My two answers Tazer or Katana (Samari sword)  My view of each

Tazer - effective and less then lethal which are both advantages.  Big disadvantage is it is not very effective on multiple invaders.

Katana - highly deadly, very fast and proven.  Disadvantages, requires training, close range only. 

I won't make big case here from either and I don't need you to either just yet.  For now just suggest any weapon that can be used with a bit of why it is good for home defense.  Once this thread runs a while I will compile all the suggestions and we can run a poll, we should learn some interesting things with this one.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: cajunkraut on April 17, 2009, 11:03:39 AM
OK help me out folks a person asked me "what is the best home defense weapon if you can't own a gun",  I mentioned it and this thread on today's show.

My two answers Tazer or Katana (Samari sword)  My view of each

Tazer - effective and less then lethal which are both advantages.  Big disadvantage is it is not very effective on multiple invaders.

Katana - highly deadly, very fast and proven.  Disadvantages, requires training, close range only. 

I won't make big case here from either and I don't need you to either just yet.  For now just suggest any weapon that can be used with a bit of why it is good for home defense.  Once this thread runs a while I will compile all the suggestions and we can run a poll, we should learn some interesting things with this one.

I know next to nothing about sword melee so I'm eminently qualified to offer my two cents :) What about a katana paired with a wakisashi or tanto? If you find yourself face to face with someone with your back to the wall, or on the ground grappling, the extra length of the katana could make bringing it into play more difficult than a shorter weapon.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Sister Wolf on April 17, 2009, 11:10:42 AM
What about those air guns that you guys like so much?  Aren't they "not" considered guns?  And that'd change somebody's mind about wanting to break in.  Really fast.

Or what about a paintball gun, appropriately aimed?  Or a shillelagh (big wooden club)?  Orrrrrr a baseball bat with nails sticking out of it?  Oh, this could get fun. ;)
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: buckeye on April 17, 2009, 11:18:27 AM
thoughts:

-upgrade standard taser to "Blast Knuckles" or flashlight stun gun
-make sure any sword purchased is battle ready and not replica
     -rather than purchasing a sword, consider purchasing a couple machete instead -- any survival kit should have and they're cheaper without worrying whether they'd hold up in a home defense situation; and you'll likely be used to carrying and swinging them if you use them regularly as a tool while camping, etc.
-instead of sword/machete, a one handed battle axe/tomahawk/lightweight hatchet might be a suitable replacement
-consider bear strength pepper spray over standard
*any of two of above can be wielded in combination

two handed weapons
-halberd or poleaxe is a good defensive weapon in hallways and suitable for fighting in large rooms -- but it's size has limitations, even if you reduce the size of the handle down to 4 or 5 or 6 feet
-high-velocity hunting slingshot
-crossbow
*a flashlight can be mounted on both crossbow and slingshot, and one or the other should be included in most survival kits as well

other options worthy of consideration:
-steel baton
-throwing knives
-incapacitating noise devices w/ or w/o a stobe light function -- make certain you have ear protection
-baseball bat, preferably little league sized for easier use

As with any home defense, it's important to identify before attacking -- the last thing you want to do is bring harm to your family!
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: archer on April 17, 2009, 11:23:49 AM
Katana - highly deadly, very fast and proven.  Disadvantages, requires training, close range only. 
I've discussed this with friends over the last 20 years, we decided the katana and similar sized swords are too long for in-house fighting. As buckeye mentioned, a machete or gladius sized sword (the gladius is the sword the romans used).
Pic of a gladius:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d2/Gladius_in_hand.jpg/300px-Gladius_in_hand.jpg)
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Sister Wolf on April 17, 2009, 11:41:46 AM
Plus, if I remember right, katanas are only sharpened on one side.  And gladiuses (gladii?) are sharpened on both sides.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: bushidorobb on April 17, 2009, 11:53:10 AM
Sister Wolf, you are correct about the Katana being a single edged weapon.
The length of The Katana during an indoor skirmish was a problem in feudal japan as well.
So they used the shorter wakisashi.... ( the carbine of swords ;D)
Personally I would use the wakisashi and a Tazer combination ( or some other mid length sword).
Just make sure you are using a REAL sword, not a decorative one.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: archer on April 17, 2009, 11:55:58 AM
Plus, if I remember right, katanas are only sharpened on one side.  And gladiuses (gladii?) are sharpened on both sides.
You are correct Sister Wolf, You can cut with a gladius on both sides and stick something with the straight point. Much better for close in fighting in limited space.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: archer on April 17, 2009, 11:58:02 AM
Sister Wolf, you are correct about the Katana being a single edged weapon.
The length of The Katana during an indoor skirmish was a problem in feudal japan as well.
So they used the shorter wakisashi.... ( the carbine of swords ;D)
Personally I would use the wakisashi and a Tazer combination ( or some other mid length sword).
Just make sure you are using a REAL sword, not a decorative one.
A wakasashi would be good, but i think it takes more skill/training to use one. the untrained masses might do better with a straight edged, short sword. I prefer Japanese blades myself (but I need more training).
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Chris Redfield on April 17, 2009, 11:58:31 AM
My two (Canadian) cents:

First and foremost - any country that doesn't recognize a citizen's right to bear arms is likely to have a pretty bad track record when it comes to the use of force (deadly or not) in self-defense. As a Canadian, I have a legal right under the Criminal Code to use deadly force to defend myself - but since I know what public perception is with regards to that issue, the first call I made would be 911, and the second would be my lawyer. And until he arrived and I had a nice chat with him, I wouldn't be saying one word to police, other than "Lawyer."

On katanas (that's "samurai", by the way ;) ) - absolutely not in a home defense scenario. Any blade that length is simply too long to be wielded effectively in the confines of a home. An enclosed hallway with a low roof essentially limits you to a stab, rather than a slash. Even the shorter swords (gladius, machete) will still be a less than optimal choice. If you have to use a knife, use something with a six-inch fixed blade - a "hunting knife" to use a common term. This does reduce your range significantly - but with all of the non-firearm home defense weapons, you're not going to be able to "stand your ground" and let them come to you - the element of surprise is crucial.

A short, stout blunt object, like a steel baton or wooden bat, is another option. Not that someone who gets stabbed is going to instinctively fight back, but the business end of a good baton will put stars in someone's eyes for a moment, hopefully enough for a second swing. Repeat as necessary.

In all cases, however - "no gun" is a home defense scenario I wouldn't want to be in, outside of a Home Alone movie.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Mielikki on April 17, 2009, 11:58:40 AM
What about an axe or a hatchet? Almost everyone has either one of those (or both), and they are pretty effective. Hatchet is even usable in smaller spaces and if you don't get a "clear" hit, the momentum will still give quite a blow.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Chris Redfield on April 17, 2009, 12:01:56 PM
An sharp axe or hatchet would definitely be an effective short-range weapon - it runs the risk of becoming lodged in an attacker though.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: archer on April 17, 2009, 12:08:30 PM
What about something like eskima sticks? Would require training but can be quite effective:
"Eskrima" or "Escrima" refers to a class of Filipino Martial Arts that emphasize stick and sword fighting. The term and the art most probably originates from the Spanish word "esgrima" which is the term for fencing.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Michael Masse on April 17, 2009, 12:09:15 PM
Can of mace and a baseball bat and perhaps an attack dog.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: archer on April 17, 2009, 12:13:12 PM
nasty mother in law...
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: mountainwilliamwannabe on April 17, 2009, 12:14:08 PM
Sorry........
"In the end, there can be only one...."

 ;)
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: bushidorobb on April 17, 2009, 12:17:50 PM
Archer,
That would inhuman...  No way I would ever sick my  mother in law on somebody. 
It would be kinder to tar and feather them :D
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Chris Redfield on April 17, 2009, 12:18:28 PM
nasty mother in law...

That might be unnecessary use of force! :D
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Dr. Horrible on April 17, 2009, 12:19:48 PM
On katanas (that's "samurai", by the way ;) ) - absolutely not in a home defense scenario. Any blade that length is simply too long to be wielded effectively in the confines of a home. An enclosed hallway with a low roof essentially limits you to a stab, rather than a slash.
I own a katana and I've got to agree. It's not an acceptable weapon for cramped quarters fighting. Visions of going Highlander on an intruder aside, you'd be better off with a good chef's knife than one of these in most houses.

There's also the investigation to deal with (assuming you used it on the intruder) as well. Stab someone with a kitchen knife vs. severing limbs/head with a largely obsolete weapon that has no other purpose - which one is more likely to wind you up in jail? Or, even in the best case, on the evening news with the wrong kind of attention?
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: ModernSurvival on April 17, 2009, 12:33:11 PM
One thing I would point out on a sword is that when most people think sword for defense they think for some reason sword vs. sword.  Shorter may indeed be better and I am sticking to my 1911 but I promise you I would no want to be moving around a dark home with a well trained home owner with any good quality sword hiding in a corner or just inside the next room.

I am very comfortable using katanas and other swords and the belief many have about the amount of force/length of swing required to yield deadly force is a bit exaggerated.  A sword can be used with little more then the flick of a wrist,  (I should do some vids on this I guess).

That said some other great suggestions thus far!  Keep em coming we can sort out what is best when we run the poll later on.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Chris Redfield on April 17, 2009, 01:13:06 PM
Perhaps I was a bit too harsh on katanas - if you're comfortable using one, and feel that you have the room to wield one effectively, it would be a fearsome thing to walk into, and probably the last thing you walked into as well. I personally would never use one ... but again, to quote Jack, "that's just one man's opinion!"

And another plus to the katana is that while a quick-reacting intruder might be able to grab a bat on the way down, or block a stab from a shorter knife, trying to catch or block a fast-moving katana would leave him with a whole lot of damage, and a lot fewer fingers. :o

Here's something else, for those of you who might want to consider a "non-weapon" alternative - a crowbar. Heavy, metal, and with a blunt side can be used to deliver a less-lethal strike.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: bushidorobb on April 17, 2009, 01:18:33 PM
You could use a small cross bow.  You will probably only get one shot, but you don't have to worry about getting close.  It is deadly and capable of penetration of very thick clothing.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: kickbot on April 17, 2009, 02:03:52 PM
I keep a pry bar within easy reach.  You can deliver a a variety of strikes with it, and it's handy.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: swanson on April 17, 2009, 02:20:02 PM
For me,

It's always been less about firearms and more about a prepared mind that's ready to act when the moment of deadly danger comes into being.

Firearms, edged weapons, impact weapons, chemical-based (OC) weapons, tazers/stun guns, and improvised weapons - it really does not matter.

Transfer the necessary energy into your target via the most efficient means available at the time within the confines of the proper use of force and/or rules of engagement.

I also want to add that it is tremendously important to study the human body and the effects produced by the variety of weapons you might use against vital points as well.

You might be surprised at the amount of damage the body can take before it hits the wall of mobility impairment, hypovolemic shock, unconsciousness, and/or incapacitation.


With all that said, my choice outside the use of a gun for home defense would be an edged weapon in a commonly available size, if readily available and accessed when in crisis.

Check out the FBI stats on the dangers posed by edged weapons. They are common, popular, and effective tools. You just might be facing a violent criminal actor with an edged weapon if your home is invaded as well.

With a modicum of regular training with an edged weapon, you would be putting another serious survival skill set in your defensive tool box if you are mentally primed to engage in close quarter confrontation.

Plus, are you more likely carry a pocket folder around the house or your firearm anyways.

Edged weapons tend to be everywhere.

As the saying goes...If it's not in your hands or on your belt - it's not in the fight.

swanson
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: kimrpeterson on April 17, 2009, 03:32:13 PM
I believe the best home defense weapon is an attack trained dog. A dog is a huge deterrent to anyone wanting to commit a crime on my property.  I am in the process of training my new German Shepherd and hoping to get her through to a Schutzhund 3 title.  Using a bladed weapon is just not realistic for me personally and having a trained dog means I don't have to be on guard since (hopefully) the dog is. For a woman, this makes the most sense in home protection.  I still have a loaded Glock close by though!
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: homeshow on April 17, 2009, 08:58:02 PM
OK trained dog sounds great.  i don't have a dog.  as  a taekwondo black belt and a hapkido student and just an all around fighting and weapons nut i have no problem using a katana for home defence.  i even have 2.  one i reworked the handle to make it longer so i get some really awesome torque on my cuts.  once i heard something in the house.  i got up grabbed the katana. and let the dogs out of their carriers/beds and proceede to go room by room.  there was nothing there.  but i left the AR-15 and ther Keltek P3AT in the bedroom.  my first instinctive response was the sword.  the girlfriend was happy that the guns stayed with her.  ???  even though she left them in the safe and on the dresser.  more recently same scenario it was flashlight and pistol.  by the way listening to jack's episode 182 and listening to the urban farming section.  i'm currently buying 5 acres within 45 minute drive from Chattanooga Tn. (where my day job is)  i will be providing my own food by gardening and rabbits and chickens and goats and aquaculturing catfish.  cheapest piece of crap house i can find with the most land i can afford.  Jamaica really?  wow.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: BerserkerPrime on April 17, 2009, 10:11:49 PM
Sorry folks, but laughed my ass off at the thought of me taking on a home invader with a samurai sword! :D   I really think that is a bad idea on many levels unless you've had training in close quarters sword fighting (LOL) with wives, kids, dogs, gnomes or what ever running around in a panic while you try to take on the bad guys. 

Same with crossbows BTW.  Not a good option as you will have to draw back string and load, find target, aim, shoot, and pray to god you got it right. 

I keep a 6 D cell MagLite (skull splitter) by my bed (w/glock) and wife has police grade OC-baton (w/S&W .38 crimson trace grips).  Other than the maglite and OC, I have a fish club in the garage and an expandable baton (ASP) in the den. 

For ease of use, I'd encourage ASP and/or maglight, though both require close contact with enemy. 

BP
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Cucuy on April 18, 2009, 03:35:32 PM
One should keep in mind that a well made katana or wakizashi can EASILY cost around 4 grand.  The pieces you can pick up online with the fancy imitation sheaths are absolutely useless as a weapon.  You might get through enough meat to get it stuck in a piece of bone, but it will almost surely be a one-stab wonder.  Replicas are not weapons.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: archer on April 18, 2009, 04:10:41 PM
One should keep in mind that a well made katana or wakizashi can EASILY cost around 4 grand.  The pieces you can pick up online with the fancy imitation sheaths are absolutely useless as a weapon.  You might get through enough meat to get it stuck in a piece of bone, but it will almost surely be a one-stab wonder.  Replicas are not weapons.
The one I have I inherited from a friend who inherited it from a family friend who picked it up in Japan after WWII. I've researched it, it's a infantry soldiers Katana, roughly made, nicked, but a live blade.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Cucuy on April 18, 2009, 04:28:55 PM
yeah, that's the other option, is to find an actual antique, but you will  still spend a good couple of grand for one that is in functional shape.  My sensei used to have a 16th century Katana and an antique wakizashi (not sure of that one's age).  You have to have a blade with a proper mix of good and bad steel, it has to be balanced correctly, it has to be sharpened correctly.  The ones my sensei had still had the test stamps at the base of the blade near the signature that told the number of arms and heads they had cut through with one stroke before they were considered finished. :)
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Cucuy on April 18, 2009, 04:32:16 PM
And if you have a true family blade you should have it re-set.  When going into war samurai wanted to keep family blades but the govt wanted them to appear uniform, so you had the blade put into government settings(govt tsuba, etc) which usually rattled a bit and weren't made very well.  There are still a few places in Japan that can re-set or re-polish a blade correctly.  Just make sure you keep the nicks, yes?  The man who made them probably lost his life, pretty cool little piece of history to have... ;)
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Cucuy on April 18, 2009, 04:39:50 PM
If I were going to have a weapon other than a gun in the house I would probably have a compound bow.  You can hold the tension while you check the house.  Though you could probably fire a recurve faster. 
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: ModernSurvival on April 18, 2009, 09:44:50 PM
One should keep in mind that a well made katana or wakizashi can EASILY cost around 4 grand. 

I paid just over 400 for my "Cold Steel" as you can see in this video they are certainly battle capable,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhzX9GZ3qKE
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: archer on April 18, 2009, 10:23:19 PM
Oh sweet!!! That is a nice blade.....
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: archer on April 18, 2009, 10:25:09 PM
I paid just over 400 for my "Cold Steel" as you can see in this video they are certainly battle capable,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhzX9GZ3qKE
Cold Steel makes some lovely blades, I've been drooling over them for years...
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: archer on April 18, 2009, 10:26:50 PM
And if you have a true family blade you should have it re-set.  When going into war samurai wanted to keep family blades but the govt wanted them to appear uniform, so you had the blade put into government settings(govt tsuba, etc) which usually rattled a bit and weren't made very well.  There are still a few places in Japan that can re-set or re-polish a blade correctly.  Just make sure you keep the nicks, yes?  The man who made them probably lost his life, pretty cool little piece of history to have... ;)
Hmm, the hilt is a rough, nasty piece of work. But the blade is nice and it will never have the nicks taken out. They are the history of the blade. I'll have to do more research on it and see about removing the hilt.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Spamity Calamity on April 18, 2009, 10:55:22 PM
I paid just over 400 for my "Cold Steel" as you can see in this video they are certainly battle capable,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhzX9GZ3qKE

I think he was talking more about an "authentic" samurai sword.

My vote would be baseball bat. Although some of those hand tools at the hardware store strike me as awful deadly looking weapons. Like once I remember seeing a  hammer with an axe edge on the other side. Or maybe if you cant own a gun perhaps a black powder gun? Maybe those are not regulated in whatever horrible country that regulates a persons right to defend themselves. Blackpowder guns are just as crazy deadly as when they were invented they just cant be reloaded quickly.

Or like what about a can of mace? Like seriously though while hes on the ground with his hands over his face from the mace you would have lots of time to go over your options .
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Mielikki on April 19, 2009, 12:41:29 AM
I paid just over 400 for my "Cold Steel" as you can see in this video they are certainly battle capable,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhzX9GZ3qKE

Battle capable and also ready for kitchen duty. He makes some really nice slabs ready to be grilled slowly :P
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Beetle on April 19, 2009, 01:02:43 AM
Stihl 044 with a 28" bar! I'm goin Texas on your ass!!!
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Darkwinter on April 19, 2009, 08:05:43 AM
HOME DEFENSE:
 Criminals are lazy and stupid, for the most part.  So to start with, keep you house from being a target is the first step to home defense IMO. 

1. Lock doors and windows
2. Keep ladders inside and don't leave things outside you home that will help the criminals.
3. Have a Security system with an audible alarm
4.  Use deadbolts, and bars for sliders
5.  don't hide keys under fake rocks, don't use 0000 as your garage door code
6. Use landscaping to make it difficult to enter windows
7.  Join a neighborhood watch
8.  Know your neighbors, and know who SHOULD be in your neighborhood.
9. Shred financial paperwork before throwing it out, and don't stack empty boxes of recently purchased high end electronics on your curb at trash day either.

Now, if you try everything you can to prevent the intrusion in the first place, Get a home defense firearm.

IF YOU CAN'T GET  FIREARM, pick an item you CAN get and TRAIN, TRAIN, TRAIN. No one buys a gun, hides it under the pillow and expects it to save them. 
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: punkndisorderly on April 19, 2009, 09:25:59 AM
I think darkwinter has it right. It's something those of us that do have firearms would do well to follow as well. Doing whatever is reasonable to minimize your chances of ever needing to use your firearm (or other weapon) is the responsible thing to do.

As far as non-firearms defense, I don't know. My initial thought was something that would keep the attacker at a distance (sword, bat, etc). However, if the attacker gets within your swinging zone, it's useless. On the other hand, something like a knife means you have to get close enough to use it which isn't a great option either. A taser might be a good way to go. Most tasers can be used at a distance as well as used like the old stun guns (pressing them against the attacker). The major downside to tasers are that you have to keep giving them the juice to keep the target incapacitated. That doesn't give you much time to call for help or to run. It also means your screwed if they manage to pull out one of the probes. Pepper sparay is another option but has its own drawbacks as well. It doesn't work insatntly, doesn't work on everyone, and can work against the user as well (blowback, etc). Perhaps the foam version of pepperspray might be a better option in an instide siituation.

Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: mbarnatl on April 19, 2009, 10:01:28 AM
My dog. If they get by him:

Stun Gun Flashlight -  hitting the attacker with the baton or stunning him with 600,000 volts!

Mace Pepper Gun - Sprays 7 blasts up to 25 feet.

Improvised weapons can include:
- Pen/pencil
- Beer bottle/mug
- Ashtray
- Hammer
- Chair
- Scissors
- Screwdriver/ice pick
- Pipe/club
- Shovel
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Cucuy on April 19, 2009, 01:37:33 PM
I don't argue that your sword could kill a man, and please do not take offense, but for a little over five hundred dollars what you get is not a true samurai sword.  The blade has to be folded enough times to separate the different steels that go into the sword.  What you are left with after folding over 200 times is a core of soft steel with a "shell" of more rigid steel.  The "shell" has a very high carbon content due to the separation created when folding.  When sharpened, the crystalline structure of the carbon creates a microscopic sawing edge.  This is why the sword is drawn across the target.  If you look closely at the gentleman in the video he is using a "sledgehammer" grip popular when cutting with a chopping weapon (i.e. western blades).  The correct grip for a katana is looser, allowing the wrist to flick the blade.  Don't get me wrong, you could kill someone with it, but a true katana will cut through much more than that sword.  Tests done on prisoners pressed chest to back would routinely cut through 5-8 arms in one stroke.  Most swords on the market are european blades in the shape of a katana.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: ModernSurvival on April 19, 2009, 02:15:10 PM
I don't argue that your sword could kill a man, and please do not take offense, but for a little over five hundred dollars what you get is not a true samurai sword.  The blade has to be folded enough times to separate the different steels that go into the sword.  What you are left with after folding over 200 times is a core of soft steel with a "shell" of more rigid steel.  The "shell" has a very high carbon content due to the separation created when folding.  When sharpened, the crystalline structure of the carbon creates a microscopic sawing edge.  This is why the sword is drawn across the target.  If you look closely at the gentleman in the video he is using a "sledgehammer" grip popular when cutting with a chopping weapon (i.e. western blades).  The correct grip for a katana is looser, allowing the wrist to flick the blade.  Don't get me wrong, you could kill someone with it, but a true katana will cut through much more than that sword.  Tests done on prisoners pressed chest to back would routinely cut through 5-8 arms in one stroke.  Most swords on the market are european blades in the shape of a katana.

I don't disagree at all with you assessment of the blades themselves, the question though is what is the purpose for this weapon in this particular situation?  The weapons from cold steel and other similar sources are exceptional blades and more then capable of lethal force if needed.  While what you say is absolutely true it is also meaningless to a person using a blade for home defense.  Unless a trained Samurai with an original katana breaks into your home, the difference is moot.   This is a lot like saying a 30-06 has greater power then a 308, true, but meaningless to the target,
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: ColdHaven on April 19, 2009, 02:26:53 PM
My first reaction after listening to this portion of the podcast was that of either one or both things. My first thought was a katana, or if you would rather a shorter straighter version, what has been modernly referred to as the ninja-to. Since my fondness of Japanese culture and history I would prefer either a katana or wakizashi. To be honest, though, the use of both at the same time would require a lot of room. Thus, a shorter sword such as the ninja-to or the wakizashi would be preferable, for me, in home defense in absence of a gun. If you use a tanto you might as well use any other fighting knife out there. If such were the case I would suggest a ka-bar.

Reason for use of a wakizashi over a samurai sword deal mostly with the arc of a swing necessary to use it effectively. Samurai swords are longer, and are not well used in hallways and near doors. The wakizashi is long enough to keep your opponent away from your immediate area, and it still has the bite of a samurai sword, in my humble opinion. You have to realize that these swords were meant for slicing, not chopping, or hacking. Thus, they are lethal if used to attack the corresponding places on the human body which would lead them to bleed out quickly. Its not like the films where you slice off an appendage. Realistically some wounds that did not look bad prooved to be fatal due to severed arteries.

I would not want to face someone who had a gun and I only had this to defend myself but it would be the first thing I would use if such were the case. If you wanted to be non-lethal about it I suppose you could use a bokken (which is essentially a wooden samurai sword of equal weight). The sword's master, Musashi, used a bokken he had fashioned from an oar to win his first match. His opponent didn't survive.

If you are looking for a ranged attack I would suggest a good bow and arrow. However, if they are that far away from you I would think you would have enough time to call 911.

You could use other swords, but many were made to be heavy enough to cut through armor and such. In effect they are cumbersome in home defense.

The only other weapon I would suggest, if you could learn how to use them, are Sai. These are highly effective for both defense against an attacker who does not have a gun, and for attacking said aggressor. They can be used with pressure points to incapacitate them, or give them sufficient blows to where they will stop attacking you. They are not as lethal so accidentally killing your assailant is not as likely unless that is what you are intending to do.

So the short of my long dissertation is either a wakizashi or a pair of sai.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: punkndisorderly on April 19, 2009, 02:49:19 PM
After kicking this around a bit, What about a military style tomahawk? More range and power than a knife. With a wrist strap, you're less likely to drop it or have it pried away from you. The modern verions seem like they would be a pretty amazing multi purpose tool.

You could go whole hog and get one of the custom Tacticool kind for less than any quality sword I've seen (most of the inexpensive ones are aimed at looking pretty rather than actually being sharpened and used). I've also seen fairly inexpensive camp axes that would probably give you 80% of the functionality. As long as they are heavy enough to deliver a good blow without being so long and unwieldy that it would take forever to get it back into action after the first swing like say a big firemans axe.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: wbo3 on April 19, 2009, 02:58:39 PM
How about one of these?

(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x89/wbo3/YK0413.jpg)

I don't actually own one, but have seen them in the BudK catalog...here is a link to this beast...http://budk.com/product.asp?pn=15%20BKYK0413&splid=SPLID01 (http://budk.com/product.asp?pn=15%20BKYK0413&splid=SPLID01).  And it is less than $20!!!
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: CBMS on April 19, 2009, 03:08:04 PM
Well for my home defence  weapon is the tomahawk I keep by my bed. I also have a wooden baseball bat next to the door to my room.
As I am living Canada there is a certain national sport that makes great pokeing and slashing tools. Yes sir, the mighty hockey stick is great for those annoying long distance strikes. Hell more people are killed by these frigging things than guns here in canada (well not anymroe with the gangs but its how it used to be). Swords are unacceptable to me because they dont drop people fast enough in untrained hands, plus with the laws up here, if I tried to defend myself against a home invader and DIDN'T finish them, they would probably turn around and sue me, and win.
I'll keep with the bat, it smashy good.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Cucuy on April 19, 2009, 03:27:19 PM
If guns are restricted where you live, the possibility of being robbed by someone armed with a blade is much higher.  If someone armed with a manufactured sword attacked Archer, for instance, he could very likely cut their sword in half (provided it is a genuine samurai blade) or a baseball bat, etc. 
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: ModernSurvival on April 19, 2009, 03:47:04 PM
If guns are restricted where you live, the possibility of being robbed by someone armed with a blade is much higher.  If someone armed with a manufactured sword attacked Archer, for instance, he could very likely cut their sword in half (provided it is a genuine samurai blade) or a baseball bat, etc. 


I really suggest you watch Mythbusters episode on sword myths before you assume any sword can cut any other sword in half.  The best a top quality sword did against a cheap replica was to break the blade.  One sword cutting another is a myth, don't blame me for it take up your grievance if you have one with Jamie and Adam,   ;)
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Cucuy on April 19, 2009, 04:17:21 PM
No offense, but all they proved is that one sword could not cut another in half.  Not all swords are created equal.  And I wouldn't put too much faith in daytime tv.  I've seen footage from captured Japanese ships where a confiscated blade was used to cut through a gun barrel.  Mind you, the blade wasn't in great condition afterwards...
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Cucuy on April 19, 2009, 04:37:16 PM
besides, my point was that a samurai katana that has been designed for killing is way more expensive than an alternative weapon like a compound bow, or a baseball bat.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: ModernSurvival on April 19, 2009, 04:58:55 PM
besides, my point was that a samurai katana that has been designed for killing is way more expensive than an alternative weapon like a compound bow, or a baseball bat.

And my point is your point is not really germane to the current issue at hand.  Seriously what it he hell does this have to do with self defense in a home against an invader.  You honestly seem at this point to be talking just to hear yourself.  I don't mean to be a jerk but damn you really are not making a point that has to do with it either a quality replica or genuine Japanese sword being used for defending your home. 

Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: mash on April 19, 2009, 05:01:59 PM
An sharp axe or hatchet would definitely be an effective short-range weapon - it runs the risk of becoming lodged in an attacker though.

Unless the guy is completely out of his melon on PCP or sumthin' I have a feeling that a hatchet lodged in a long bone or shoulderblade would probably take the fight out of him a bit...

Of course this might be an issue if he's brought his MZB friends along.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: mash on April 19, 2009, 05:18:12 PM
I keep a Mag light next to the bed. I was talking to my brother-in-law, who is an Australian Federal Police officer, about how anybody who tried to sneak into my little hut would get a nasty surprise upside the head.

He told me, "No don't go for the head, if they survive they can turn around and sue you for attempted murder. Go for the bones in the arms and legs, you will still take them out of commission but it will be a cut and dry case of self-defense."
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Sister Wolf on April 19, 2009, 05:35:18 PM
 :D I agree with mash.  We keep big mag lights on each side of our bed at home too.

The thought of having to cope with no gun under the pillow is a very serious and scary one.  As much as I empathize with folks who like expensive weapons (I guess we all like quality weapons one way or another, and we all define quality in different ways), the question isn't "what would be the most awesome, expensive weapon you can imagine having if you didn't have a gun?"  The question, rather, is "what would work in a bad situation?"  and, much like the active shooter thread, the thought of having to actually think through a nasty situation where something bad might really happen puts some of us in a tizzy.  And others among us would like to dream big. 

But really, are any among us *really* prepared for not having a gun within arms reach?  Isn't the best weapon available to us the simple ability to take anything within arms reach and turn it into an effective weapon, regardless of what it shoots, or how sharp the edge is?

I know that the answer is yes.  Some of you guys (men and women) are military, or were recently military, or never stopped training after your service to our country, or are/were police officers, or security contractors, or are highly trained in martial arts.  I am not and never was any of those things, and both the active shooter thread and this thread are both making me seriously reconsider my ability to defend myself.  It's one thing to point a gun and shoot it.  But if that's ALL I can do, I'm screwed.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Cucuy on April 19, 2009, 05:50:53 PM
whoa there partner, lets recap:

you wanted to know what everybody thought about your katana idea.  I PERSONALLY thought they would be too expensive.  You said you got one cheap, I said you can't get the real thing cheap.  You said there was no difference, I said there was if you're in a melee-only situation WHERE THE OTHER GUY WILL MOST LIKELY BE ARMED WITH  A MELEE WEAPON, then we got into swords cutting each other in half(Oh, and a broken blade is just as useful as a cut blade).  Then I tried to get us back on the cost issue and you got mad.  I absolutely could care less if you are trying to protect yourself with a butter knife, but if you are going to suggest for someone to try and purchase a katana for the purpose of killing there is a world of difference between something designed by someone who makes hunting knives and a weapon designed for killing.  otherwise why not get a twenty five dollar sword from bud k?  because you get what you pay for and youre telling someone to skimp on their weapons.  there are cost effective alternatives to getting a sword.  I can get a bow and arrow that have been proven to be efficiently lethal  for a lot less than a sword that can say the same.  thats my point.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: dhallftworth on April 19, 2009, 06:08:06 PM
no gun?? where are yall living ? New York?? lol I do Keep a cattle prob with my guns so I guess I could use it... It hurts like hell I'm told..
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Sister Wolf on April 19, 2009, 06:10:14 PM
Stop.

Cucuy, listen.

You can only get an authentic whatchamacallit sword for $4000.  You can also get an effective sword for $400.  No qualifiers.  An effective sword is one that makes a wound that will not make mr. bad guy smile.  Nobody's telling anybody to "skimp on their weapons".

It's clear what your opinion is about paying less for a weapon.  You prefer the more expensive weapon, and find it more efficient and far higher in quality than the $400 weapon.

If what somebody can afford is a $25 sword from bud k, then so be it.  We are not elitists on this board.  I can play a $30 guitar just as well as I can play a $2000 guitar, and my ability to wield either has absolutely NOTHING to do with the quality of the instrument.  It has only to do with my ability to play a guitar.  A $4000 sword does not a sensei make.  I'm sure that for somebody who is a connoisseur, it's not worth wasting the money to buy a "crappy" sword for any reason.  I get it.  I have a very particular kind of instrument that I will buy, and I get very passionate about it too.  But we aren't going to become connoisseurs of your trade, and that is most certainly not the point of this thread.  

Also, your very first statement (the main premise upon which you were acting) in that last post you made was already wrong.  Jack never asked us what we thought about his katana idea.  He asked us what we would use if we didn't have a gun handy.  HIS idea was a katana and/or some other weapon.  You were free to make judgments about his ideas, but that wasn't the point of the thread.  The point of the thread was to produce other ideas.  Not to tell each other how stupid the other persons ideas are due to lack of desire (or ability) to spend the kind of money necessary to have a top of the line product.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Sister Wolf on April 19, 2009, 06:14:32 PM
no gun?? where are yall living ? New York?? lol I do Keep a cattle prob with my guns so I guess I could use it... It hurts like hell I'm told..

Or California, or Canada, or Mexico, or Brazil, or god knows (don't we have people living in just about every nation on this board?) also - if somebody has "committed a felony" they would not be allowed to own a gun.  So I s'pose there are lots of situations where it might be a possibility.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: sneauxball on April 19, 2009, 06:16:34 PM
we have weapons stashed all over the house.

my aluminum t-ball bat is by the back door.
couple of cans of freeze+p
three different police batons
battle ax
mag lites. 6 & 4 cell. his & hers.
tazer in my jewelry box
a loud, protective wolf looking dog
pellet gun for the critters


i love blades, but i don't exactly trust myself with them.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Sister Wolf on April 19, 2009, 06:18:12 PM
what is freeze+p?

Also - what does your hubby think of those tazer things that are sort of like brass knuckles?  I've been wanting to ask a cop that for a while now.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: dhallftworth on April 19, 2009, 06:19:18 PM
yes I know... I was being funny... I also have weapons of somekind everywhere...
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: wbo3 on April 19, 2009, 06:25:13 PM
I keep a Mag light next to the bed. I was talking to my brother-in-law, who is an Australian Federal Police officer, about how anybody who tried to sneak into my little hut would get a nasty surprise upside the head.

He told me, "No don't go for the head, if they survive they can turn around and sue you for attempted murder. Go for the bones in the arms and legs, you will still take them out of commission but it will be a cut and dry case of self-defense."

Or, you could just beat them to death with the flashlight...then it is your word against nobody's...
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: ColdHaven on April 19, 2009, 06:32:13 PM
Stop.

Cucuy, listen.

You can only get an authentic whatchamacallit sword for $4000.  You can also get an effective sword for $400.  No qualifiers.  An effective sword is one that makes a wound that will not make mr. bad guy smile.  Nobody's telling anybody to "skimp on their weapons".

It's clear what your opinion is about paying less for a weapon.  You prefer the more expensive weapon, and find it more efficient and far higher in quality than the $400 weapon.

If what somebody can afford is a $25 sword from bud k, then so be it.  We are not elitists on this board.  I can play a $30 guitar just as well as I can play a $2000 guitar, and my ability to wield either has absolutely NOTHING to do with the quality of the instrument.  It has only to do with my ability to play a guitar.  A $4000 sword does not a sensei make.  I'm sure that for somebody who is a connoisseur, it's not worth wasting the money to buy a "crappy" sword for any reason.  I get it.  I have a very particular kind of instrument that I will buy, and I get very passionate about it too.  But we aren't going to become connoisseurs of your trade, and that is most certainly not the point of this thread.  

Also, your very first statement (the main premise upon which you were acting) in that last post you made was already wrong.  Jack never asked us what we thought about his katana idea.  He asked us what we would use if we didn't have a gun handy.  HIS idea was a katana and/or some other weapon.  You were free to make judgments about his ideas, but that wasn't the point of the thread.  The point of the thread was to produce other ideas.  Not to tell each other how stupid the other persons ideas are due to lack of desire (or ability) to spend the kind of money necessary to have a top of the line product.

+1 for that excellent delivery. Being an admirer of Japanese culture and history I can understand the passion behind the sword, but I am also considered poor. So I get what I can afford. I have an awesome non-traditional straight samurai sword that is full tang. I have seen what it can do. It is the most expensive sword I own, but it by no means cost 1,000 dollars. I have a full tang ninja-to next to my bed which if I had to be quick about it I would feel comfortable weilding and stopping an attacker. It cost 20 bucks. It essentially is and looks like a long kitchen knife.

That and I am not expecting to fight samurai or ninjas. If I ever have either after me then it would be for some major shit. If you think expensive is better, then thats it, and you're entitled to that opinion. But it is not one everyone shares. Wars are won in the mind.

But back to the original topic...

What do others on the forum think would be a good home defense weapon besides a gun?
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Darkwinter on April 19, 2009, 06:34:24 PM
No gun . . . .

            How about a can of hairspray, some PVC, and some potatoes.  Within 10 yards, a good ole potato gun will certainly work!! :)

Seriously, I was thinking my buck knife and Mag light,, But I am still kicking around the potatoe gun idea.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: sneauxball on April 19, 2009, 06:35:57 PM
sister wolf, the hubby says:

the tasers with the barbs are designed to interfere with electrical impulses from the brain to the muscles.  that is why you see people totally lose control and drop.  the barbless tasers, like the brass knuck tasers (which i think are totally cool ;D) only inflict pain.  he said they would probally be effective on your run-of-the-mill scumbag home intruder, but not really one someone that is trained and/or can take pain.

he also added that taser international makes hand held ones (http://www.taser.com/products/consumers/Pages/C2.aspx) (with the barbs) that are small enough to fit in a purse, and they are available in five designer colors (oooh :o).  they're made to charge for 30 secs, so you shoot, run and loose the taser.  but if you contact taser international with a police report, they will replace it.

Freeze+p is a mixture of tear gas and pepper spray.


also, he's trained in pressure point tactics.  something i wish i could retain in my brain.  i consider him my personal weapon, but when he's not around...well, i have all those toys plus a couple of pistols.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Sister Wolf on April 19, 2009, 06:36:06 PM
No gun . . . .

            How about a can of hairspray, some PVC, and some potatoes.  Within 10 yards, a good ole potato gun will certainly work!! :)

Seriously, I was thinking my buck knife and Mag light,, But I am still kicking around the potatoe gun idea.

OMG, you just gave me an idea.  What about a can of hairspray and a lighter?  If it's that pressurized hairspray (what do they call that stuff?), it'd be just like having a blow torch!!
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: ColdHaven on April 19, 2009, 06:36:12 PM
No gun . . . .

            How about a can of hairspray, some PVC, and some potatoes.  Within 10 yards, a good ole potato gun will certainly work!! :)

Seriously, I was thinking my buck knife and Mag light,, But I am still kicking around the potatoe gun idea.

How about a can of hairspray and a lighter?  ;D
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Darkwinter on April 19, 2009, 06:37:36 PM

How about a can of hairspray and a lighter?  ;D

Piss off the intruder and burn your house down!!! I love it!  ;D
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Sister Wolf on April 19, 2009, 06:38:45 PM
How about a can of hairspray and a lighter?  ;D

I am SO 6 seconds ahead of you.   ::)   :D
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: ColdHaven on April 19, 2009, 06:39:46 PM

Piss off the intruder and burn your house home!!! I love it!  ;D
What?! I have a fire extinguisher in my home. Don't you? For such an occasion?
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: ColdHaven on April 19, 2009, 06:40:50 PM
I am SO 6 seconds ahead of you.   ::)   :D

 8) Dang it. You got me.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Darkwinter on April 19, 2009, 06:41:03 PM
A can of hairspray and a lighter, with a fireextinguisher bayonet.  I think we have solved the issue here.   :D
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: ColdHaven on April 19, 2009, 06:42:07 PM
A can of hairspray and a lighter, with a fireextinguisher bayonet.  I think we have solved the issue here.   :D

If you really wanted to confuse the intruder you could burst him into flames then use the fire extinguisher on him.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Sister Wolf on April 19, 2009, 06:42:31 PM
A can of hairspray and a lighter, with a fireextinguisher bayonet.  I think we have solved the issue here.   :D

Now all we need is a picture of firetoad with his mossy oak cammo and fishing hat and goggles sporting a pink variety of just such a conglomeration, and we'll be set.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: ModernSurvival on April 19, 2009, 06:58:15 PM
whoa there partner, lets recap:

you wanted to know what everybody thought about your katana idea. 

Um no,  ;)  What I said was,

"I won't make big case here from either and I don't need you to either just yet.  For now just suggest any weapon that can be used with a bit of why it is good for home defense.  Once this thread runs a while I will compile all the suggestions and we can run a poll, we should learn some interesting things with this one."

That is word for word from the OP, the point here is only to compile a list of alternatives for a poll to come next.  When we actually read we tend to learn things. And thanks for the moderation SW! 
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Sister Wolf on April 19, 2009, 07:08:05 PM
sister wolf, the hubby says:

the tasers with the barbs are designed to interfere with electrical impulses from the brain to the muscles.  that is why you see people totally lose control and drop.  the barbless tasers, like the brass knuck tasers (which i think are totally cool ;D) only inflict pain.  he said they would probally be effective on your run-of-the-mill scumbag home intruder, but not really one someone that is trained and/or can take pain.

he also added that taser international makes hand held ones (http://www.taser.com/products/consumers/Pages/C2.aspx) (with the barbs) that are small enough to fit in a purse, and they are available in five designer colors (oooh :o).  they're made to charge for 30 secs, so you shoot, run and loose the taser.  but if you contact taser international with a police report, they will replace it.

Freeze+p is a mixture of tear gas and pepper spray.


also, he's trained in pressure point tactics.  something i wish i could retain in my brain.  i consider him my personal weapon, but when he's not around...well, i have all those toys plus a couple of pistols.

Sneauxball - this is a GREAT post.  +1.  I got on that website and ooohed and ahhed over color choices.  I don't know if I want black or white.  They're all so purty.  In any case, I LOVE the idea of a hand held taser.  I'm voting for that, and Freeze+p or pepper spray, and maybe a baseball bat (because I don't have a cool baton).  I know I could use all of those things, and that each combined with the other two would be plenty to knock him/her down and break his/her arms and legs.  :)
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: wbo3 on April 19, 2009, 07:09:25 PM
i have another suggestion!!!  Actually this one is from Zell Miller.  Since we now have a democratically controlled House, Senate, and a Democrat president, we can arm ourselves with Spit balls!
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: ColdHaven on April 19, 2009, 07:39:08 PM
Spit balls dipped in cayenne pepper!
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: ModernSurvival on April 19, 2009, 08:34:35 PM
Spit balls dipped in cayenne pepper!

This makes me think of something else, I don't know if there is a trade name for these things but my brother-in-law who is a Police Sergeant has told me they use a product that is basically a paint ball gun and the paint balls are full of Pepper Spray and something so foul smelling it causes vomiting.  He said he and another officer stood off a guy who was one second going to kill them the next he was going to kill himself, he was sitting on a bed with a large knife.

At some point they made the decision to use these pepper/crap ball things and each fired 3 into his upper chest (where you are supposed to because they blow up into the face, etc).  Marc said it took the fight out of the guy he ended up clutching his eyes and vomiting on himself in the fetal position.  good thing too the guy was well over 300lbs and well built.

I am going to have to ask if civilians can purchase these things,
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: ColdHaven on April 19, 2009, 08:42:54 PM
Wow that is pretty awesome!  :D And I was more than happy just to have some CS. This sounds much more fun!
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: mash on April 19, 2009, 08:50:12 PM
That and I am not expecting to fight samurai or ninjas.

speak for yourself ColdHaven!

(http://www.ratemyeverything.net/image/5030/0/Motivator_Life.ashx)
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Darkwinter on April 19, 2009, 08:54:33 PM
I have never used pepper spray in a confined area.  Inside the home, would pepper spray effect the homeowners as well as the intruder? I have a pretty small house.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Beetle on April 19, 2009, 09:26:03 PM
I have never used pepper spray in a confined area.  Inside the home, would pepper spray effect the homeowners as well as the intruder? I have a pretty small house.
Yep, everyone gets it. Hopefully the intruder more.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Beetle on April 19, 2009, 09:26:50 PM
And yes even the foam....
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Mr. Bill on April 19, 2009, 09:31:27 PM
A can of hairspray and a lighter, with a fireextinguisher bayonet.  I think we have solved the issue here.   :D

Spit balls dipped in cayenne pepper!

I'm starting to like this place.  :D

So, speaking as someone with zero training or native ability with edged weapons ;D I can see one big advantage to a long(ish) sword as opposed to a fighting-type knife: there is nothing the bad guy can grab without getting himself cut.  If I'm defending myself with a several-inch knife, I have to get so close to the bad guy that, if he's got the least fighting skill, he may be able to grab my arm.  With a long edged weapon, I can keep him too far away to grab anything.

Does that make sense?

Anyway, I apologize for this digression onto serious questions, so I'll make it up to you with a weapon my wife and I dreamed up.  It's just one of those butane barbecue-lighters, the kind where the flame is out at the end of a 6 or 8 inch metal square tube.  You epoxy a bunch of double-edged razor blades along the metal tube to make it un-grabbable.  Crank up the butane to high, and you've got a few inches of flame at the end of a mini-sword.  Single-handed operation, no need for hairspray and a lighter.  Still perfectly capable of burning your own house down.  Good, no?
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: dhallftworth on April 19, 2009, 09:35:05 PM
I'm starting to like this place.  :D

So, speaking as someone with zero training or native ability with edged weapons ;D I can see one big advantage to a long(ish) sword as opposed to a fighting-type knife: there is nothing the bad guy can grab without getting himself cut.  If I'm defending myself with a several-inch knife, I have to get so close to the bad guy that, if he's got the least fighting skill, he may be able to grab my arm.  With a long edged weapon, I can keep him too far away to grab anything.

Does that make sense?

Anyway, I apologize for this digression onto serious questions, so I'll make it up to you with a weapon my wife and I dreamed up.  It's just one of those butane barbecue-lighters, the kind where the flame is out at the end of a 6 or 8 inch metal square tube.  You epoxy a bunch of double-edged razor blades along the metal tube to make it un-grabbable.  Crank up the butane to high, and you've got a few inches of flame at the end of a mini-sword.  Single-handed operation, no need for hairspray and a lighter.  Still perfectly capable of burning your own house down.  Good, no?


and what would you name your invention?
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: wbo3 on April 19, 2009, 09:40:18 PM
This makes me think of something else, I don't know if there is a trade name for these things but my brother-in-law who is a Police Sergeant has told me they use a product that is basically a paint ball gun and the paint balls are full of Pepper Spray and something so foul smelling it causes vomiting.  He said he and another officer stood off a guy who was one second going to kill them the next he was going to kill himself, he was sitting on a bed with a large knife.

At some point they made the decision to use these pepper/crap ball things and each fired 3 into his upper chest (where you are supposed to because they blow up into the face, etc).  Marc said it took the fight out of the guy he ended up clutching his eyes and vomiting on himself in the fetal position.  good thing too the guy was well over 300lbs and well built.

I am going to have to ask if civilians can purchase these things,


Jack, if civilians CAN purchase these things, how about another listener appreciation contest?  That would make an AWESOME prize.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: The Wilderness on April 19, 2009, 10:51:07 PM
I'm starting to like this place.  :D


Mr Bill, good to see you here, I need all the help I can get with you know who.


Anyway, I apologize for this digression onto serious questions, so I'll make it up to you with a weapon my wife and I dreamed up.  It's just one of those butane barbecue-lighters, the kind where the flame is out at the end of a 6 or 8 inch metal square tube.  You epoxy a bunch of double-edged razor blades along the metal tube to make it un-grabbable.  Crank up the butane to high, and you've got a few inches of flame at the end of a mini-sword.  Single-handed operation, no need for hairspray and a lighter.  Still perfectly capable of burning your own house down.  Good, no?


I like your weapon idea and was thinking that you could market it as a barbecue versa tool, you know light your barbecue and cut your meat. Kinda like a Swiss Army Lighter
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Sister Wolf on April 19, 2009, 11:03:33 PM
Here, is this what you're talking about? Article from wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Less-lethal_weapon)

Quote
In the late 1990s and early 2000s, police began to adopt a new pepper spray delivery system based on the equipment used in paintball. A specialized paintball, called a "pepperball", is filled with liquid or powdered capsaicin, the active ingredient in pepper spray, and is propelled by compressed gas using a paintball marker similar to those used for the sport, but modified for higher-pressure operation. The capsule breaks open on impact and the capsaicin disperses with similar effect to aerosol pepper spray. In addition, the pain caused by the capsule's impact (a pepperball's shell is thicker than a standard paintball and is fired at higher velocity) can independently encourage compliance.

and then again here at Pepperball.com's consumer site (http://www.pepperball.com/personal/).  Looks like they ARE available to the public.  And I'll be wanting one of those flash launchers, thank you very much.  So. Frigging. Cool.  Looks like it runs about $250 bucks plus pepperballs.

I'm so adding that to my Christmas list.  Thanks for the idea, Jack!

I'm starting to like this place.  :D
Mr Bill, good to see you here, I need all the help I can get with you know who.

(http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/mad/mad0025.gif)

Just what is that s'posed to mean, hrrmmmm?
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: PistolWhipped on April 19, 2009, 11:53:03 PM
A pepperball gun is a paintball gun, and can be had in MANY incarnations relatively cheaply.  Semi auto paintball/Pepperball/OC Ball handguns can be had for under $150.    Though the Pepper/OC balls are kinda pricey.  Get a bag of paint to practice with and some 12ies (12 Gram CO2 powerlets) and you have a ranged semi weapon that hurts/stings like all hell.  I can recommend a few if you'd like, I used to play Paintball quite a bit.  A good non-lethal alternative.  In fact I may consider one as a Non-lethal CC option now that you mention it.  I think civilians can purchase them,  have seen them on a few sites.  I'll see what I can dig up.

As for a potentially lethal HD weapon, a light sword like a Wakizashi (shorter katana style weapon) or kodachi (between a wakizashi and katana) would likely be effective in close quarters.  Samurai traditionally would favor the lighter, faster, handier wakizashi  for indoor Combat.  Just remember to use a "push and pull" motion for full cuts.  Keeps the edge straight and allows more precise control, more speed, and less chance of rolling the metal along the edge.  Also, a rapier might work too.

Or something like a Mace, hammer, machete or axe/hatchet.  Could do a lot of damage and most survivalists have the last 3 handy anyway.

Also, as per arts like Escrima, Arnis, kung fu, and others, never doubt the effectiveness of a well applied stick.  Escrima Sticks, jos, staves and the like can be brutal.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: PistolWhipped on April 20, 2009, 12:19:58 AM
Looks like I can't get them shipped here.  Might have to ship them to my father's house and have him hold them for me till I can pick them up.  Kinda pricey though.  More than good .45 ACP even.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Beetle on April 20, 2009, 12:37:41 AM
How about just use frozen paintballs instead, I bet that would sting.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: CBMS on April 20, 2009, 01:16:52 AM
How about just use frozen paintballs instead, I bet that would sting.
When frozen, paintballs deform, they will jam up and muck up your gun.
Now as a former baller myself, I would not ever, EVER use a PB gun to disuade an intruder, all it will do is irritate them and make even madder. NOW that said, if you can crank that sucker to over 500 FPS, you will break small bones with each strike. If you can push it to six, you will do worse than that, Organ ruptures, and a very painful injuries.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: IRKCOD on April 20, 2009, 02:17:20 AM
How about a Nunchaku,

How to make:

http://www.wikihow.com/Make-a-Nunchaku

Used to be into these in my youth, many eons ago. 
Very flexible and can be used effectively for defending and counter attack.
Easy to construct, can be made to an optimal size and weight for the user. 
Usable with one or two hands. 
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: ColdHaven on April 20, 2009, 05:40:47 AM
speak for yourself ColdHaven!

(http://www.ratemyeverything.net/image/5030/0/Motivator_Life.ashx)

LMAO! You get a +1 for that!  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: ejsandstrom on April 20, 2009, 07:10:12 AM
My first thought was where am I most likley to confront said BG? Most likley it will be in the hallway. Anything longer than a Kabar would be useless. Even a baseball bat, not enough room for a swing.

My weapon of choice would be a drywall hammer. If you connect with either side, it would be devastating.

I also like the oc paint balls, it would hurt like a mother and after a second you are a slobbering crying bich (sic).

Those blast knucles look like worthless toys. If you connected the plastic would likley break and you hurt your hand.

If you want to get mid-EVIL, I suggust a moarning star, flail, or mace.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Hooz on April 20, 2009, 09:15:25 AM
I grew up in the Caribean, and there was at least one machete in every home, they were used for gardening, food prep, self defense...

If you've ever seen what a machete can do to a roast pig, you know what I'm talking about.

Google "machete Rwanda". Holy crap.

Finally, if you ever have to defend yourself in your home, which do you think the jury will cringe less at (and the prosecutor drool more over); a machete or a sword?

Hooz.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Mr. Bill on April 20, 2009, 10:27:37 AM
and what would you name your invention?

How about... The Incinerazor!

Mr Bill, good to see you here, I need all the help I can get with you know who.
(http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/mad/mad0025.gif)

Just what is that s'posed to mean, hrrmmmm?

For some reason I was just remembering when I tried to put a harness and leash on our cat.

Howdy, TW!  I'll do what I can, but, you know, I don't think she's entirely domesticated.  And a Goddess too.  We have to be careful.

I like your weapon idea and was thinking that you could market it as a barbecue versa tool, you know light your barbecue and cut your meat. Kinda like a Swiss Army Lighter

That's good!  And as a handy kitchen implement, for when you cut the meat and discover it's still a bit underdone on the inside and need to do some touch-up cooking.

[Attempting to be serious for a few seconds...]

As a weapon, this concept is not so good.  It's especially bad as a home defense weapon, because you really don't want to light your opponent on fire inside your own home.  But I can think of a few circumstances where a long flame could be useful.  Fire goes straight to an instinctive fear (well, for many people, I think).  If you were out on a city street, or in your car, it might discourage an attacker long enough for you to escape, call for help, grab a better weapon, etc.

(Do I really believe this?  I dunno -- maybe it belongs in the same category as the famous Tactical Assault Wheelbarrow and such.  It's probably good to think about how you'd use random objects as improvised weapons, but not so good to plan on relying on such a weapon.)

Here, is this what you're talking about? Article from wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Less-lethal_weapon)
...
and then again here at Pepperball.com's consumer site (http://www.pepperball.com/personal/).  Looks like they ARE available to the public.  And I'll be wanting one of those flash launchers, thank you very much.  So. Frigging. Cool.  Looks like it runs about $250 bucks plus pepperballs.

These toys were in the news a few years ago after a mishap during a protest.  If I remember correctly, the police fired a pepperball straight into the eye socket of a protestor, basically delivering the pepper compound directly into the brain and causing rapid and painful death.  Ugh.

Pepper spray and mace are ruled out in our household because my wife has mild asthma.  She's never had a life-threatening asthma attack, but what would happen if she got a dose of her own spray?  I don't want to find out.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Cucuy on April 20, 2009, 12:34:31 PM
Sorry bout that, got caught up in the argument.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: TexSquirrel on April 20, 2009, 02:39:02 PM
Here is what I would, and do have.
But luckily it will stay on the shelf as I CAN have a firearm.


(http://www.m9bayonet.com/images/ontario-m9/m9_ontario01.jpg)

Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: ModernSurvival on April 20, 2009, 02:40:53 PM
Sorry bout that, got caught up in the argument.

NOOOOOO Problem what so ever. 
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Sister Wolf on April 20, 2009, 02:42:11 PM
Sorry bout that, got caught up in the argument.

That's never happened to any of us here.  Nope.  No clue what yer talking about.  :D
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: ModernSurvival on April 20, 2009, 02:43:26 PM
And we may have a new contender!  I know tomahawk has been said but this thing is in its own leugue.  Expensive yes but on my want list as of right now,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOZ5gLSefhY&feature=related

and their site

http://www.rmjtactical.com/

I have some nice hawks but nothing I would try to use like a can opener on a car door!  This is utility, defense and  lot more all in one.  I think it would be easier to teach a person to use then a knife or sword as well,  keep the suggestions coming this is going to be a cool poll.

They are currently sold out though,  >:(

One more cool video on them http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZIO-6zYo3g
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: archer on April 20, 2009, 02:47:35 PM
How about something less pointy like tonfa? It's a club with a handle.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonfa
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: ModernSurvival on April 20, 2009, 03:15:47 PM
How about something less pointy like tonfa? It's a club with a handle.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonfa


I trained with tonfas as a kid in martial arts.  Good weapon but to use with any better effect then a simple baton they require quite a bit of training.

Back on the tomahawks, check out these two, both under 40 bucks from my boys over at cold steel.

http://www.coldsteel.com/riflemanshawk.html

and

http://www.coldsteel.com/trailhawk.html

May be I don't need one of those expensive ones after all,  ;)  Much like the sword debate is one "better" then the next, sure.  Will it matter to most of us, not really I sure would not want to take a shot from either of those.  Very nice steel on everything else I have ever bought from CS so I imagine these are nice too.  I never looked at them before, the price is pretty low compared to most of their other stuff but I think I will order one and let you guys know my impressions.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: archer on April 20, 2009, 03:18:34 PM
May be I don't need one of those expensive ones after all,  ;)  Much like the sword debate is one "better" then the next, sure.  Will it matter to most of us, not really I sure would not want to take a shot from either of those.  Very nice steel on everything else I have ever bought from CS so I imagine these are nice too.  I never looked at them before, the price is pretty low compared to most of their other stuff but I think I will order one and let you guys know my impressions.

I'm very curious what your review will be.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Sister Wolf on April 20, 2009, 03:18:46 PM
How about something less pointy like tonfa? It's a club with a handle.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonfa

That is the coolest thing I've ever seen.  I would LOVE to get good at that.  I bet the bruises you get when getting to know a tonfa are pretty satisfying.  :)
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Copyright 1972 on April 20, 2009, 03:25:04 PM
I am saving penny's up in a jar for an RJM Tactical hawk!

Untill then my trusty 23oz Vaugn Framing hammer is never far away!  My wife once ran an intruder out of the house with it!

I know this is a "What if" kinda thread, but I gotta say, the more "Everyday" your self defense tool is, the less likely you will be prosicuted by some DA with an agenda.  Now don't get me wrong, I'll be the first to hack a bad guy to bits with a Klingon bat'leth with out the forethought of prosicution, but in the planning, and training, the thought is allways there.

Here's my last then I'll go: Dead men tell no tales, and the less sides to a story, the better.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: dhallftworth on April 20, 2009, 03:38:43 PM
Dead men tell no tales, and the less sides to a story, the better.

I like that, heard it before but still good... I think I'm going to quote you.... Ha thanks!
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: ColdHaven on April 20, 2009, 03:42:42 PM
How about something less pointy like tonfa? It's a club with a handle.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonfa


I've never had the pleasure to mess with those, but I would like to give it a shot. Sai can be used similarly to block the forearm from strikes to the body and arms.

If you have the time look at these videos:

History of Sai.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffUk3naQTys (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffUk3naQTys)

Some exercises and Handling of Sai.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Lg5FhrkyB0&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Lg5FhrkyB0&feature=related)

Striking Points of Sai.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bporeQLORXI&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bporeQLORXI&feature=related)
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: archer on April 20, 2009, 03:45:27 PM
That is the coolest thing I've ever seen.  I would LOVE to get good at that.  I bet the bruises you get when getting to know a tonfa are pretty satisfying.  :)
The bruises are probably similar to the ones you get with nun-chuka.. Nice and black and blue...

Sai are nice because they can block like ColdHaven says, but they can also grab with the points, hit hard with the butt end, and that semi-pointy end can really hurt when it hits hard.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Spamity Calamity on April 20, 2009, 05:07:36 PM
Take a brick and spray paint it black. Then you have a tactical brick perfect for home defense!  :D
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Copyright 1972 on April 20, 2009, 05:37:30 PM
Take a brick and spray paint it black. Then you have a tactical brick perfect for home defense!  :D

This just in: Congress passes a ban on the sale of "Black assault Bricks" The NBA (National Brick Ass.) went on record today denouncing the contrivercial bill stating "We as Americans have a God given right to possess bricks no mater what their size, or color!"  A Congresionall spokesman went on record in an MSNBC interview today "We have just taken our first step in assuring that all Americans can walk the streets safely knowing that they no longer need fear the threat of those horrable Black assault Bricks".  Fox news reports that in addition to the Brick ban the Bill also contained 64 Trillion dollars in earmark spending.......

 ;D Hmmm, bet you can't tell I've been up for 34 hours straight, can ya? LOL!!   ;D :D
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: ColdHaven on April 20, 2009, 05:43:15 PM
Nothing I can appreciate more than smart-ass cynicism.  ;D
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Red Dog on April 20, 2009, 05:45:18 PM
Hopefully I didn't miss this suggestion buried in the 4 pages of posts but how about a short spear.  I'm thinking that in a hallway or other close quarters a weapon you can effectively thrust with as opposed to only swing would be a good thing.  Cold steel has some interesting options on their site -

http://www.coldsteel.com/specialtyitems.html (http://www.coldsteel.com/specialtyitems.html)

The boar spear with a handle cut down to 3' would be wicked.  I do have to admit that being a fan of Last of the Mohicans I'm kind of partial to the war clubs :o
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Heavy G on April 20, 2009, 07:29:42 PM
A trick I learned right quick in high school when some ruffians cornered me in a bathroom is to take the lid off a toilet and use it like a big ol' swattin' board.  They are heavy.  Luckily deterrence won the day and I didn't have to swat my way to freedom. 

I didn't enjoy high school. 
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: 19kilo on April 20, 2009, 07:43:20 PM
A trick I learned right quick in high school when some ruffians cornered me in a bathroom is to take the lid off a toilet and use it like a big ol' swattin' board.  They are heavy.  Luckily deterrence won the day and I didn't have to swat my way to freedom. 

I didn't enjoy high school. 



+1   ;D

Thanks for the visual.

Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Winchester32 on April 20, 2009, 07:46:09 PM
I think the simpler the better.  People tend to think they need something specialized, when common household items would work pretty well too.  Without a gun or a crossbow, close contact is going to be almost a given, so a big hammer would work, or an old fashioned meat tenderizer.  My mom used to use one of those things.........Dang!....they are heavy and have all those short spikes on them! :o
Other items might be a tire iron, kitchen butcher knives or even a cue ball in the end of a tube sock.  Swing one of those around a few times and it will definately crack someones head.  

The sword ideas, while appealing, do not seem very practical.  Unless you have a great deal of handling experience and training, it could be more of a disadvantage.  Of course, there is always the possibility that the intruder will be skittish and shy and the mere sight of a big sword will scare him off.   ;D
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: centurion on April 20, 2009, 08:01:49 PM
A good wooden baseball bat and a big mean looking dog .L would suggest (louisville slugger and a rottweiler).
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: ClarkB on April 20, 2009, 08:13:54 PM
I was going to suggest a baseball bat with spikes and razor blades driven into it, but when I saw the bat with spikes that wbo3 posted I knew that that was just what I had in mind.  I would take that sucker and install the guts of an electric baton so that the spikes carry a charge (bore out the handle for the batteries, wiring can even be external to provide more charged contact area).  In addition I would have a can of bear spray in order to disorient, and hopefully disable, a single assailant, or two or three.  Ambush them in close quarters with the bear spray and finish them of with the spiked bat.  A good combat knife should be at your hip, and ready.  A bad ass dog is recommended.  In lieu of the bat I would opt for a machete, one with both edges sharpened.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: ModernSurvival on April 20, 2009, 08:43:32 PM
I've never had the pleasure to mess with those, but I would like to give it a shot. Sai can be used similarly to block the forearm from strikes to the body and arms.

If you have the time look at these videos:

History of Sai.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffUk3naQTys (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffUk3naQTys)


Thanks CH but I just couldn't listen to that guy,  ;)  Made me think of the episode of the Simpsons where Homer says, "you take forever to say nothing".  I find the sai to be a very good weapon if used like a baton to subdue people with a slapping motion.  To be used with deadly force you must use the point and I have to admit they are good that way too.

Though I did not hear the history lesson in full my teacher always taught me that the sai was originally a pin for use like with a cart and to connect it to an oxen team.  This makes a lot of sense if you look at the weapon and also knowing that people were not allowed to have weapons during the evolution of the sai so they used what they have.

For instance Kamas were just a short scythe for harvesting grain.  The original nunchaku looked nothing like the current weapon it had one long handle and one short and was a rice flail used to beat rice and separate the grain. 

The reason I bye the cart pin theory about the sai is a friend bought an old farm in PA lots of cool stuff left behind including some "pins" they were pretty close looking to the sai and I don't think many Amish are versed in far east weaponry. 
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: ModernSurvival on April 20, 2009, 08:56:36 PM
Another option, a shovel.  Well not just any shovel, "dig" this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIlceAZBRdA

Yet another item for the want list,  ;D
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: swanson on April 20, 2009, 08:59:18 PM
Folks,

I just have to break in here again and promote the carry and use of a portable edged weapon as a serious option for home defense.

If you are going to take the time to master a tool, make sure it can be brought to bear in any work space - Home, hotels, Car, Office, and in leisure settings.

The only tool that does all the above that well is the 'knife'...

We all have a limited amount of time to train on available weapons systems. It makes sense to me to make my secondary weapon one that works across a variety of environments and acts as a force multiplier outside the home as well as inside.

Here's some attributes of the knife that make it all the more attractive -

(from Jim Grover/Kelly McCann and Lynn Thompson)

- Silent
- No muzzle flash
- No recoil
- Not ammunition dependent
- Few, if any, moving parts
- Little or no maintenance
- Never malfunctions
- Rarely breaks
- Unaffected by environment
- Legal (depending)
- Nonregulated or near impossible to regulate
- Easily obtained
- Safer to bystanders than handguns
- Delivers all its energy to the intended target
- Very difficult to disarm
- Requires less fine motor skills to operate under duress
- Can be used in confined spaces
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: ColdHaven on April 20, 2009, 09:01:40 PM
Thanks CH but I just couldn't listen to that guy,  ;)  Made me think of the episode of the Simpsons where Homer says, "you take forever to say nothing".  I find the sai to be a very good weapon if used like a baton to subdue people with a slapping motion.  To be used with deadly force you must use the point and I have to admit they are good that way too.

Don't apologize. It takes a lot of patience to hear what he has to say. I completely understand where you are coming from on that.  :D

Thats why I said if you had the time to watch them.  ;D
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: sneauxball on April 20, 2009, 10:10:01 PM
Another option, a shovel.  Well not just any shovel, "dig" this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIlceAZBRdA

Yet another item for the want list,  ;D

well, i think i'm going to have to put that one on my christmas list.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: The Wilderness on April 21, 2009, 12:22:50 AM
well, i think i'm going to have to put that one on my christmas list.

I am with you, that just got added to my list.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Beetle on April 21, 2009, 01:46:38 AM
I am with you, that just got added to my list.

Yeah, but can the dig a hole?
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: ModernSurvival on April 21, 2009, 06:37:57 AM
Yeah, but can the dig a hole?

Yes of course either in the ground or in a chest,  ;)
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: ColdHaven on April 21, 2009, 07:46:03 AM
Wow. I thought an etool would be enough, but that looks like this shovel would do more work/damage.

As a side note: I wonder how much meat they go through a day. I bet they had a nice barbecue after these videos were made!
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: smkymtn on April 21, 2009, 10:40:15 AM
 My 4 dogs and a bearded hillbilly holding a tomahawk and k-bar doing a rebel yell down the hall  ;D
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Michael Masse on April 21, 2009, 11:02:15 AM
My 4 dogs and a bearded hillbilly holding a tomahawk and k-bar doing a rebel yell down the hall  ;D

Tell you what the local gun show has a guy who sells some pretty nice hatchets, tomahawks.

Reminds me of the Mel Gibson character in Patriots.  Very deadly if you know how to use it.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: smkymtn on April 21, 2009, 11:10:31 AM
Tell you what the local gun show has a guy who sells some pretty nice hatchets, tomahawks.

Reminds me of the Mel Gibson character in Patriots.  Very deadly if you know how to use it.
;D Me too. I learned how to use a tomahawk when I was about 10 going to the Appalachian mountain crafts shows were I grew up. The other thing is it can be thrown very accurately inside or out.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: CHI_Survival on April 21, 2009, 11:52:11 AM
3 foot piece of rebar [2.65 at home depot] Easy to conceal, easy to swing and man the damage to a intruders face. I keep one in my car and near my bed.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: archer on April 21, 2009, 11:56:09 AM
My 4 dogs and a bearded hillbilly holding a tomahawk and k-bar doing a rebel yell down the hall  ;D
That combination would scare the hell out of me...
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: agentem on April 21, 2009, 12:56:25 PM
My submission:

 I like my A.G. Russell Sting.

http://www.crkt.com/sting.html
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: M.Therium on April 21, 2009, 01:07:15 PM
My first home defense weapon was a short aluminum baseball bat.  It's light, maneuverable and hits hard.  It's also quiet which, if I'm dealing with multiple intruders, may be an advantage if I can attack by surprise.  Especially if they're armed.  Also, I would have been less likely to paint an entire room(s) with someone's blood.  I made sure I had a glove and a dinged up ball in the house too.  That way there was no pre-meditation argument to come immediately to mind.  I've since upgraded to something less subtle but I still keep the bat around along with a can of pepper spray.

On an associated note, if your goal is to clear intruders from your home, perhaps a pepper spray grenade?  It'll allow you to retreat behind a locked door (remember the towel under the door!) and otherwise make your home unwelcoming to your "guests" without putting you directly into danger.  Supposedly you can air the pepper out but I suspect new furniture and carpet might be part of that bargain. Still, better safe than sorry.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Michael Masse on April 21, 2009, 01:29:22 PM
I wonder about setting up the home ala "Home Alone" so when intruders are present you can deal with them remotely with lights, pepper sprays, and various unpleasantness with what ever level of force is needed.

Just a thought.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Spamity Calamity on April 21, 2009, 04:19:23 PM
Another option, a shovel.  Well not just any shovel, "dig" this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIlceAZBRdA

Yet another item for the want list,  ;D

Hey Jack do you own stock in Cold Steel or something.  ;)
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: ModernSurvival on April 21, 2009, 06:22:28 PM
Hey Jack do you own stock in Cold Steel or something.  ;)

No but may be I should  ;)
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: A Pawn on April 21, 2009, 06:56:13 PM
I can think of two In Home non firearm weapons. One lethal and the other not.

The lethal would be a spear simalar to the Zulu Assegai. It's a short spear and can be used to both stab and slash like a sword depending on the space you have to defend. The kicker for the Assegai is you can mount two on a wall with a Zulu Shield and people would think it's just art or a show of racial pride.

The non lethal would be a cattle prod. They are much like a hand held shock weapon, but with a 2 or 3 foot reach. Most Tazers are a one shot weapon. But if you get someone down with a prod just holding it down on them with your finger on the trigger is a great deterrent to any funny business.

Take is easy...  8)
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: PistolWhipped on April 21, 2009, 08:30:52 PM
A good friend of mine was former US Army Special Forces has shown me the true potential viciousness of an e-tool or shovel like the one Jack posted.  THAT would be a GREAT defensive weapon for either HD, or in the BoB for close range security.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Claymore on April 21, 2009, 08:48:11 PM
My wife is particularly fond of my very light and expensive softball bat.  Most persuasive in sending the neighbor's dogs (and their drunk owner) home more than once.  It has been conveniently located behind a door for years.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: PistolWhipped on April 21, 2009, 10:05:58 PM
I was working with some pipe earlier, and it could DEFINITELY be used as a weapon if you went with a heavy steel or lead pipe.  I know it's high on the list of things I don't want to be on the receiving end of.  That thing could break bones.  And of course, the old elbows and knees are Bad Ass if you know what you are doing with them.  I'll brainstorm some more.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: PistolWhipped on April 21, 2009, 10:12:06 PM
The Paratech Hooligan tool line.

(http://us.st12.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/botach_2047_53069319)


Paratech Hooligan Tools:
Hooligan_Tool.The Hooligan Tool is one of the world´s most popular forcible entry tools. These heavy-duty tools were designed to pound, puncture, pry, twist, and cut all types of barriers encountered by emergency service personnel.The head and claw are forged from high alloy steel, heat treated for maximum strength, then fitted to a 1” (2.5 cm) stress proof bar. The bar has machine grooved non-slip grips. The Hooligan Tool features a newly designed claw that is gently curved for maximum prying leverage. The claw opening is parallel and fits over locks, hasps and many door bars. It can also be used as a nail puller and a gas shut off during emergencies. The new “Highway Hooligan Tool” features a new metal cutting claw with a machine sharpened metal cutter that uses the can opener principle to cut heavy gauge metal and composites.
Standard Claw: Parallel opening for gas valve shutoffs, locks and hasps. Machine sharpened claws. Recessed nail puller. Claw radius for prying leverage. Grip-machine grooved non-slip grips.
Metal Cutting Claw: Combines the capability of prying and metal cutting. Machine sharpened metal cutter uses can opener principle to cut heavy gauge metal and composites.
Bright Chrome Finish: The standard high gloss chrome plated finish is available for good looks and easy maintenance.
Long Pike: Sharp, tapered and gently curved to fit a lock or latch.
Long Duckbill: smooth incline to force windows and interior doors.
Recommended Users: Fire departments, law enforcement agencies, rescue squads, HAZ-MAT teams, plant/refinery maintenance crews, military and public utilities.

http://www.botachtactical.com/parhooltool.html

IT could definitely work as a weapon as long as the wielder puts enough oomph behind it, and would be a fantastic tool for various mundane tasks as well.

Or a chainsaw just to scare the hell outta them.  Scarier than hearing a shotgun racked by like a million times.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Bloodyboots on April 21, 2009, 10:49:33 PM
I've always been partial to local simple weapons. The good ole Axe handle, available at your local Hardware store for approx. 30 bucks (US). Easy to use, good length, the missus can "choke-up" on it, and with a small drill and some re bar, you can add a little, "enforcer".


Got one by my side of the bed, she has one by hers and each have a nice leather wrapped handle and strap on them. With a decent swing in my hallway, she has generated over 50 PSI.  on an impact mat we borrowed from our local Tae Kwon Do Studio.

Simple, efficient and soooo innocent. It even fits on the floor of our trucks (just in case).


Swords are nice, whether long blades, Two-handers, or shorts. But you really need to practice with them. While the idea of chop and cut seems easy, you need strong wrists, good follow through, and remember to "Draw" the blade. The edge will only cut well when it is pulled or pushed across the flesh.

 As a 2nd degree black belt, I've trained in a number of "exotic" weapons. But for home defense, when a firearm is not an option, and training has not stared yet, get a simple heavy club, and swing it a lot, probably in your garage or basement.

But build up those muscles, so when time comes to use it, it counts.

Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun/What gun? This ain't a gun!
Post by: LdMorgan on April 21, 2009, 11:37:32 PM
Wellllll.....how about a gun that isn't a gun?  Moreover, one that's  "legal": it requires no registration in any state, no background check, no concealed carry permit, and no gun lock in any jurisdiction.

It's a gun that can fire about 50 times without reloading, and can be used very effectively at ranges up to 30 feet. It's silent, has no muzzle flash and no recoil, and is utterly incapacitating without being lethal. It requires almost no training, and even a child can use one safely and effectively.

If you shoot someone with it, you can't be prosecuted for the use of deadly force, since it isn't deadly--but the weapon will put an intruder down faster than a Taser, and in a way they won't get over nearly as fast.

It's also cheap, and you can leave it lying around anywhere, fully loaded, because it doesn't look dangerous.

In fact, it looks like a toy.

It looks like an ordinary child's squirt gun--because that's exactly what it is--but it's loaded with pure ammonia instead of water.

One little (squirt!) in the face will put anybody down flat on the ground, and have them earnestly begging for mercy.

Of course, if they're not begging loudly enough (or earnestly enough), you can always squirt them again. (And again!) (And again!)

Ammonia's cheap!

A little ammonia won't usually blind someone--but it feels like it will, and it's utterly agonizing when you get a faceful.

Eyes, mouth, and nose--they're all very sensitive. One drop the eyes is usually quite enough to deter an attacker.

As for snorting a line of ammonia--not even the tough guys wanna do that!




Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Dan on April 22, 2009, 01:44:10 AM
As fond as I am of the idea of sneaking through the house in the middle of the night with a three foot long Japanese razor blade I think I would have to go with something a little lower profile. I'm going to suggest a war hammer (http://www.coldsteel.com/warhammer.html) for a couple reasons. First is it's ability to focus energy into a small area making it possable to break bone even through plate armor. Second is it's simplicity and ease of use, it is just an evolution of the club after all. Third it looks less menacing than most things that have been mentioned so far thus less likely to land you in the pokey. Fourth
(http://www.the-exiles.org/Images/lejuepoleaxe/image11.gif)
effective!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_hammer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_hammer)

Oh, and Yay me for making Survivalist mentor. :D
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: kimbertac2 on April 22, 2009, 05:13:31 AM
Interesting thread. While I find it interesting to see this plethora of "items" being thrown into the hat, I find it more interesting to read the reasons....  some logical.. others... well, not so logical.   What stands out is... TRAINING. No matter what you might think is good or cool or even effective is only as effective as the skill and the will of the person wielding it.  One may be skilled at a battle axe, while another may be more skilled at a Bo or Jo.   But one skilled at neither may likely be unsuccessful or even the target of his own weapon... and this goes for firearms as well!!

If you are not trained, then mace and baseball bat and a dog ( credit to Michael J ?? in thread) is the next best thing to unassin' the AO (area of operations...  i.e  get out and get away, survive to fight another day).

But if you chose a battel axe, a katana, a hammer or an ice pick, or  whatever trips your trigger.... learn to use it. THE BEST CHOICE IS THE ONE YOU KNOW HOW TO USE.    (I would personally suggest martial arts training (empty hand) and Bo/Jo training. The Bo training applies to any long slender tool that can be used as a weapon.. broom handle, mop handle, lamp, stick,umbrella, capenters level... )  THE POINT IS... MAKE THE CHOICE TO BE PREPARED and PREPARE.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: swanson on April 22, 2009, 05:38:59 AM
Quote
TRAINING. No matter what you might think is good or cool or even effective is only as effective as the skill and the will of the person wielding it.

THE BEST CHOICE IS THE ONE YOU KNOW HOW TO USE.

THE POINT IS... MAKE THE CHOICE TO BE PREPARED and PREPARE.

+1, GREAT POINTS

Whether you are employing a dedicated, well designed weapons system or an improvised one, your mindset and commitment to offer greater violence when faced with deadly danger will provide a telling outcome.

Have a plan and use what's at hand to skilled and brutal effect and dominate the situation.

swanson
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: "Top" W. Kone on April 22, 2009, 08:02:37 AM
I like the traditional mace, a big hunk of metal on a short stick. Add in a shield and your Conan.

When I lived in NYC I had a room mate who showed me the joys of e-tools. (not the crap us army tri-folds they give us now) I know others have posted the special forces shovel, but as nice as it is, it lacks some things. You can't use it as a pick and it does not fold up to a smaller size. With a single handle you get a good grip, if the shovel is open you have a point to jab with if it is at 90 you can use it with a swing motion and get some deep cuts. If you have it closed you have a shorter length and using the flat side a good hard club.

Add in that they cost about $20 for three at surplus stores. Put one in each car and you also have a shovel to use to dig out of the mud/snow and cops don't freak out by seeing an e-tool in the front seat area.

I also would recommend a Battle Hammer too, or a footsman hammer.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: robt871 on April 22, 2009, 08:22:42 AM
someone may have already had this idea, if so, sorry i missed the post.
OC-10, mace, pepper spray, whatever the term you want to use. Is not a good defense weapon in the house. If that stuff gets sprayed indoors and gets into the duct work, it is damn near impossible to get it out of the house. It will saturate the home.

With any weapon oc-10 (chemical weapons) also should be used with caution and training.  If there were a way for me to upload a video, I have a video that I shot, when i was in the police academy.  If there is enough interest maybe Jack could contact me and I could send it to him.

The best defense after being sprayed is baby shampoo in warm water.

a can of hair spray being used as a weapon, if you can get into the face of your attacker, wont have the problems that oc10 will have on the house or any indoor facility, i know women who carry this in their purse for that purpose.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: shanked on April 22, 2009, 09:16:38 AM
Hopefully I didn't miss this suggestion buried in the 4 pages of posts but how about a short spear.  I'm thinking that in a hallway or other close quarters a weapon you can effectively thrust with as opposed to only swing would be a good thing.  Cold steel has some interesting options on their site -

http://www.coldsteel.com/specialtyitems.html (http://www.coldsteel.com/specialtyitems.html)

The boar spear with a handle cut down to 3' would be wicked.  I do have to admit that being a fan of Last of the Mohicans I'm kind of partial to the war clubs :o

This was almost my exact thought. I scrubbed through the forums to see if it was posted... I thought the spear would sneak by. Short spears being a semi-ranged weapon would work great in hallways and keeping an attacker at bay. I fought with medieval heavy weapons once. against spear, sword, and katana. Spears are the hardest to get past. a proficient sword combatant will have a difficult time against a novice spearman A spear haft, maybe 4 ft long would be a nice size, something you could choke up on to turn corners. the spear offers great leverage and power from minimal effort. You can also strike multiple times very quickly. Another benefit of the spear, it would be very difficult for an attacker to turn the weapon on you if they are for some reason able to get past the blade. I have also seen some fighters use a short sword + short spear. in a tight area,  Kbar + Short spear could be a pretty frightening combination, covering 2 different ranges. You can always throw it too, following in with the short blade. Hehe. Sorry, bit of a medieval nut.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: swanson on April 22, 2009, 11:43:53 AM
Swords are coming back into fashion....

 ::)

swanson

Man tries to rob dry cleaners with sword

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2009/04/22/man_tries_to_rob_dry_cleaners_with_sword/

Police said a man dressed liked a ninja used a sword in an attempt to rob a Weymouth dry cleaner. According to police, a convenience store clerk called police Monday after she noticed a man walking into the store wearing a ski mask and a sword in a sheath on his belt.

Police said that when the man noticed her, he pulled his mask off and asked whether she was calling about him. When she said she was, the man left the store and walked into nearby Galaxy Cleaners. There, he pointed a sword at the register and asked a clerk to give him all of the money, police said. He left after she told him she couldn't open the drawer.

Police are still searching for the man, who witnesses said appeared to be in his late 20s. (AP)
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: TrashCanMan on April 22, 2009, 01:29:39 PM
I would like to nominate the best form of defence as being strong doors and windows, a police linked alarm system, cctv, a trained german shephard and failing all of the above, the fat end of my pool cue  ;)
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: ModernSurvival on April 22, 2009, 01:49:22 PM
I would like to nominate the best form of defense as being strong doors and windows, a police linked alarm system, cctv, a trained german shephard and failing all of the above, the fat end of my pool cue  ;)

Good suggestions, what though is the average response time of law enforcement in your area,  ;).

I carry a gun because an entire cop is too heavy  ;D
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: TrashCanMan on April 22, 2009, 01:53:48 PM
Point taken!   ;D

I'm looking in to getting a shotgun licence which involved interviews with the local police, a shed load of forms, etc.  That will then become my defence  :)
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: ModernSurvival on April 22, 2009, 02:05:12 PM
Point taken!   ;D
I'm looking in to getting a shotgun license which involved interviews with the local police, a shed load of forms, etc.  That will then become my defence  :)

Serious question, can you own a pump shotgun in the UK or just break action?  I know/think semi auto is out right?
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: TrashCanMan on April 22, 2009, 02:10:09 PM
Snipped from Wiki..

In the United Kingdom, a Shotgun Certificate (SGC) is required to possess a shotgun. These cost £50 and can only be denied if the chief of police in the area believes and can prove that the applicant poses a real danger to the public, or if the applicant has been convicted of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term of three years or more (unless they have been acquitted) or if the applicant cannot securely store a shotgun (gun clamps, wire locks and locking gun cabinets are considered secure). The round number restrictions apply only to the magazine, not the chamber, so it is legal to have a single-barreled semi-auto or pump-action shotgun that holds three rounds in total, or a shotgun with 5 separate chambers that holds 5 rounds. However, revolver guns do not fall into this category so multi-chamber shotguns would need to also be multi-barrel. For a shotgun to be held on an SGC,it must be a smooth-bore gun (that is not an air-gun) which:

(a) has a barrel not less than 24 inches (610 mm) in length and does not have any barrel with a bore more than 2 inches (51 mm) in diameter;

(b) either has no magazine or has a non-detachable magazine not capable of holding more than two cartridges;

(c) is not a revolver gun.
__________

Before I delve much further in, I need to do some research on local clubs and become affiliated with them to stand a better chance of my application going through.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: infobomber on April 22, 2009, 06:32:33 PM
some of us used to carry these. we called them a smiley.

take a master lock (or padlock etc) and run your bandanna through the lock and tie the bandanna.  Let the bandanna hang out of your pocket a bit so its easy to grab it if need be.  You don't have to be terribly accurate even if you don't whack your attacker on the head with a direct hit the flexibility of the bandanna will allow it to wrap around the skull and will impact somewhere. 

there are tons of variations of this concept.  for example; socks, pillow cases, bed sheets. with heavy objects in them.  Obviously for qcq a shorter length would be best.  Though This is one weapon that shoots around corners :), and example would be if you were aware of the attackers position around a corner, you could send a large amount of energy at them from a concealed location.  Additionally Id expect this tactic might be useful as a sort of single boledoras entrapment, though one could always just throw a blanket or sheet over the attacker to confuse them momentarily. 

obviously, as whats been stated in the thread early on, is that any thing can be a weapon
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Cucuy on April 22, 2009, 06:46:48 PM
I used to carry one of those, but I used chains for the flexible part. 
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: infobomber on April 22, 2009, 07:05:54 PM
I used to carry one of those, but I used chains for the flexible part. 

chains work too, they also sometimes have an added tearing effect. Though a pair of socks and baseball in ones carry on luggage would get passed the TSA and get a +1 vs boxcutters.

Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Michael Masse on April 22, 2009, 07:14:24 PM
Just met with a guy today at his home to discuss a road project that will impact his residence and he told me yesterday someone broke in to his home during broad daylight.  Kicked in his front door.  He wasn't home.  All they took was a locked steel box which had some documents in it but nothing irreplaceable.  I gave him some pointers on the new door he was having installed and on hardening your home to discourage another break in.  This stuff happens as we all know. Need to be prepared.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun/What gun? This ain't a gun!
Post by: Mr. Bill on April 22, 2009, 07:46:54 PM
It looks like an ordinary child's squirt gun--because that's exactly what it is--but it's loaded with pure ammonia instead of water.

Ha!  My wife thought up that idea too, and put it in a novel she wrote.

Leakage was the biggest problem we thought of for concealed-carry (who wants to wander around with a big wet mark and an ammonia smell?), but maybe that would be less of an issue for a weapon stored at home.  Deterioration of the plastic and corrosion of metal parts (e.g. the spring) might also be problems.

A variation on this idea: a small spray bottle, with an adjustable nozzle set to "stream".  Might be more leakproof, and it would also be a lot easier to explain to police/courts why you had it sitting around the house ("for window-washing").

This is interesting theoretically, but does anyone have any actual experience, or knowledge of an actual event, involving ammonia spray used against a Bad Guy, a vicious dog, etc.?
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Spamity Calamity on April 22, 2009, 08:00:19 PM
I would like to nominate the best form of defence as being strong doors and windows, a police linked alarm system, cctv, a trained german shephard and failing all of the above, the fat end of my pool cue  ;)

Yes and I think Darkwinter also brought this up but I just want to echo this. Most ppl that are gonna break into your home are opportunists and if you make your house a hard target they will go and hassle the next guy which would be my preference.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: TXChikk on April 22, 2009, 08:25:06 PM
Interesting thread here. I have to agree that one should go with a weapon that is comfortable to them and if they are not comfortable enough with it then train. In lieu of a gun I would only be comfortable with my aluminum bat but my small spaces put limitations on that. My next choice would be my Ka Bar but I really loathe the thought of having it taken away and used against me. Aluminum bat gets my vote. Beyond that it's a physical fight with blows hopefully where it counts. Of course if things get too close for comfort then I will suffocate them with the power thighs.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: dhallftworth on April 22, 2009, 08:29:18 PM
Of course if things get too close for comfort then I will suffocate them with the power thighs.
TxChikk I love your thinking... :D
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun/What gun? This ain't a gun!
Post by: Sister Wolf on April 22, 2009, 09:20:36 PM
This is interesting theoretically, but does anyone have any actual experience, or knowledge of an actual event, involving ammonia spray used against a Bad Guy, a vicious dog, etc.?

No, I've not ever heard of it - but I can't think why it wouldn't be effective.  It'd hurt an AWFUL lot.  :)
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: mash on April 22, 2009, 11:01:52 PM
How about... The Incinerazor!

 ;D +1 LMFreakin'AO Mr Bill
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: sandanbob on April 23, 2009, 02:02:46 PM
Cold Steel (nope, I don't own any stock, or receive payment) also has a variety of "specialty items" in addition to the tomahawks that have been been mentioned.  These include their 'sharky' marker (also, the Koga tool, or kubotan, to give you an idea) for close up, various synthetic material tools for stabbing, the sjambok, sticks, throwing knives and stars, war clubs...

I have one of their polyproplene bats, and one of their "plastic" bokken by the bed.  Remember, those who are using a bat, stick, bokken or other blunt object- you don't have to SWING it- you can thrust with either end, or the center, as well.

Their "Bad Axe" (or similar item) also would probably cause a bad guy to pause.

And, if you have an intruder at night, a powerful flashlight (tactical or otherwise) can blind them and give you plenty of time to act.  And, as some said, you can hit them with the flashlight.

Just throwing some ideas out.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: JokersWild on April 23, 2009, 09:18:37 PM
OK help me out folks a person asked me "what is the best home defense weapon if you can't own a gun",  I mentioned it and this thread on today's show.

My two answers Tazer or Katana (Samari sword)  My view of each

Tazer - effective and less then lethal which are both advantages.  Big disadvantage is it is not very effective on multiple invaders.

Katana - highly deadly, very fast and proven.  Disadvantages, requires training, close range only. 

I won't make big case here from either and I don't need you to either just yet.  For now just suggest any weapon that can be used with a bit of why it is good for home defense.  Once this thread runs a while I will compile all the suggestions and we can run a poll, we should learn some interesting things with this one.
I'm going to go with anything I can use from a distance. One interesting site I found was RAP4

Less lethal paintballs - may use
http://www.rap4.com/paintball/

Streaming OC
http://www.alstechnologies.com/index.php?page=oc-aerosols
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: P_Coltrane on April 23, 2009, 09:25:41 PM
Not perfect but should be readily available anyway . . . a fire extinguisher.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: PistolWhipped on April 25, 2009, 12:54:55 AM
A "hand axe" or "Camp axe" would be brutal.  Less than a full sized axe, but bigger than a hatchet/tomahawk.  Double bladed. and if it'll chop a tree, a goblin won't he too much work.  Between the weight at the end and the long handle, it could produce serious leverage, and is handy for a BOB too.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Mr. Bill on April 25, 2009, 01:51:57 PM
A "hand axe" or "Camp axe" would be brutal.  Less than a full sized axe, but bigger than a hatchet/tomahawk.  Double bladed. and if it'll chop a tree, a goblin won't he too much work.  Between the weight at the end and the long handle, it could produce serious leverage, and is handy for a BOB too.

Regarding carrying an axe in your vehicle:  BLM occasionally issues alerts such as this example (short PDF file) (http://"http://www.blm.gov/or/districts/lakeview/files/LV-07-07.pdf") during periods of high fire danger.  "Industrial Fire Precaution Level 4" requires, among other things:
Quote
All vehicles must carry one shovel not less than 26 inches in overall length, with a blade not less than eight inches wide; one gallon of water or a fully charged 2.5 pound fire extinguisher; and one axe with a handle at least 26 inches in length and a head weight of not less than two pounds.

So if you're bugging out to, traveling through, or living near BLM lands, and someone demands to know why you're carrying an axe, this explanation should suffice during fire season.  (And for the rest of the year, it's for zombies collecting firewood.)
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: dhallftworth on April 25, 2009, 02:22:12 PM
Shouldnt this be a poll already??  :-\
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: rustyknife on April 25, 2009, 05:29:44 PM
No weapon?...........how about a squeeze bottle of lighter fluid and a pack of matches?
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: A Pawn on April 25, 2009, 06:42:10 PM
I can think of two In Home non firearm weapons. One lethal and the other not.

The lethal would be a spear similar to the Zulu Assegai. It's a short spear and can be used to both stab and slash like a sword depending on the space you have to defend. The kicker for the Assegai is you can mount two on a wall with a Zulu Shield and people would think it's just art or a show of racial pride.

The non lethal would be a cattle prod. They are much like a hand held shock weapon, but with a 2 or 3 foot reach. Most Tazers are a one shot weapon. But if you get someone down with a prod just holding it down on them with your finger on the trigger is a great deterrent to any funny business.

Take is easy...  8)

Jack asked for images of our suggestions so here is the Assegai.

(http://www.schmitthenner.com/ancientarmour/images/CS95F.jpg)

This one as you can see is made by Cold Steel. The link is below along with other pointed and edged weapons.

http://www.schmitthenner.com/cold_steel_swords.htm

These are real weapons folks...not cheese slicers... 8)
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: "Top" W. Kone on April 26, 2009, 06:08:04 AM
A good hickory cane. It makes a great club, has a hook end, and no one ever questions your use of it around town. It is also able to go through metal detectors. If you have to use it, it makes great press: "man uses cane to defend home" or "Grandfather's cane stops home invasion".  you have pre-set up a favorable press situation.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: shanked on April 27, 2009, 01:11:45 AM
I second the Assegai.

The image and size of the Assegai is pretty much the short spear I had in my mind. if you have a little more space in your entryway, id go with a longer haft. Spears are what the Spartans held Thermopylae with. I imagine holding a hallway would be a little easier. given you aren't fending off 20 men.

I have been watching a bit of Spike's new series Deadliest Warrior... http://www.spike.com/show/31082

They go over a lot of different weapons from a range of warrior cultures. They have covered, apache, gladiatior, viking, samurai, spartan, and ninja so far. It takes a pretty in depth look of wounds and damage inflicted for a range of weapons.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: spartan on April 27, 2009, 11:54:07 AM
My choices would be:

Mace/Pepper Spray, backed up with a good old fashioned machete.  The first gives me a bit of range. 

With the machete, depending on the exact brand/style, you can thurst, cut, or chop with it.   And where I live having one to clear brush makes it a functional tool to have on hand, not a blatant weapon.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: kimbertac2 on April 28, 2009, 06:03:22 AM
Two supreme ideas were mentioned in this thread:

Sure fire tactical flashlight....  scalloped bezel is designed for imparting maximum pain/damage. flashlight is designed for blinding(intense light) and striking... both great adavantages.  blinding is good for intermediate range, though striking means you have to be close, but the blinding part should give you an advantage to execute the strike.

The flashlight is a superior choice to compliment any other tool... be it bladed weapon, club, or chemical.  ( however, if you just flashed the guy to blind him... his eyes may now be closed... make sure you pause and he opens his eyes again before you discharge the pepper spray)

second... the smiley. bandanna and padlock( i've been in a bubble 'cause I've never heard of that before), or sock and baseball, or anything similar. they are common items you can find in the house, they extend your reach, giving you a little more distance ( especially when used with the flashlight above), and they have the potential to impart a significant amount of damage. I personally like the padlock idea...  steal is harder than a baseball and the weight and sharp corners will focus the strike energy to equate to more pain/stopping power.

Again.... even these require planning and training, but I would suspect that even the most unprepared person could weild these with some success.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: theaccidentalsurvivor on April 28, 2009, 08:43:06 AM
How about a gym-sock full of pennies with the sock tied to make the pennies into a hard ball? Something inconspicuous you can have in a drawer that kids really cant hurt themselves with anymore than if they hit themselves with any other blunt object in your house.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: PistolWhipped on April 28, 2009, 10:07:59 AM
Old Fashioned D cell Mag light, like the police used to carry.  Don't know if you've ever been hit with one, but they hurt like hell, and light is usually a tactical advantage.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: infobomber on April 29, 2009, 07:01:43 PM
Old Fashioned D cell Mag light, like the police used to carry.  Don't know if you've ever been hit with one, but they hurt like hell, and light is usually a tactical advantage.

Again remeber for best results defend against the attacker with the crown or butt of the light and not the side of the tube.  While it may be called a -club-light- do not use it like that, the battery cap will pop off when the tube deforms and the batteries will fly out leaving you with an aluminum paper towel tube. 
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: The Limey on April 30, 2009, 05:20:48 AM
Here in the UK we have very restrictive self defence laws even in our own homes. We have to show to the authorities that we responded in a proportional way. Wiki has a good write up on the UK self defence law.
If some lowlife breaks in To my house and I attack him with any "weapons" then i probably would get prosecuted for assault or worse.
 As i chop my own firewood and break up wooden pa-lets for kindling i have a small machete and a  gorilla bar positioned by my door.
I used to own a 4 d cell maglite but it went faulty
Trashcanman I  am  also thinking about getting a pumpaction shotgun like a Remington 870 but I can't imagine the  cumstances of using this other than after the SHTF.
People in the US should know that in the UK even a can of pepper spray is classified as a firearm. If convicted of possession there is a 5 year mandatory prison sentence.
Also some years ago a guy called Tony Martin defended his farm with a shotgun from 2 lowlife Robers killing one and injuring the other.
Tony Martin was found guilty of MURDER. Due partly to popular outcry he was released after 5 years or so. The surviving scumbag sued Mr Martine for damages but the judge eventually chucked this claim out.
Mark
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: The Limey on April 30, 2009, 05:29:38 AM
Following on from my previous post
What I would really like if I could afford it is an original 1796 pattern British light Calvalry sword An original one because (in the eyes of our gov) I would be a collector of antiques and not an importer of dangerous weapon from abroad .
See this link
http://www.napoleon-series.org/military/organization/c_swordpoint1.html
Mark
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Possenti2264 on April 30, 2009, 08:23:46 AM
I'd probably stick with one small hatchet in each hand or a hatchet in one hand and hunting knife in another.  I think they're more maneuverable with the cutting edge.  You'd also have the back end of the blade for a blunt object. 

Another choice for hallway fighting would probably be a sharp spear.  I'd probably rather stick with stabbing/poking than swinging as my hallways are narrow and a spear would keep some distance and be difficult to deflect.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: infobomber on April 30, 2009, 08:39:40 AM
I dont' think I saw anyone mention the trusty cast iron skillit
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: dhallftworth on April 30, 2009, 08:56:07 AM
I dont' think I saw anyone mention the trusty cast iron skillit

I agree... they hurt!! especially from across the room... lol
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: oldrn on April 30, 2009, 09:05:55 PM
My first post.

Old Hickory sells a 14 inch butcher knife for under 20 dollars. Nothing exotic but could
be effective at slashing,cutting and with modification stabbing. I am enjoying the
forum.oldrn
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: TXChikk on April 30, 2009, 09:38:05 PM
I agree... they hurt!! especially from across the room... lol

sounds like you would know about this!  ;)  :D
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Beetle on May 01, 2009, 01:18:24 AM
Has anyone mentioned Dogs yet???
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: kimrpeterson on May 02, 2009, 09:11:16 PM
Has anyone mentioned Dogs yet???
I brought up dogs at the beginning of this thread.  I think a well trained protective dog (I have two German Shepherds) is the best in home defense, because having a bad ass dog makes the criminal think twice before stepping foot on my property.  The guard dog prevents the crime from even occurring.  It's impossible for most of us to be on alert constantly at home, but owning a trained dog let's me relax and sleep at night knowing my house is being protected.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: dhallftworth on May 02, 2009, 09:13:50 PM
My three pit-chow mixes seem to deter ppl from even coming over..... They are all sisters and have an adopted begal as a half-sister... If anyone was ever to break into the house they wouldn't be getting out... 8)
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Copyright 1972 on May 03, 2009, 03:17:17 PM
My three pit-chow mixes seem to deter ppl from even coming over..... They are all sisters and have an adopted begal as a half-sister... If anyone was ever to break into the house they wouldn't be getting out... 8)

LOL, and it would cut down on yer' dog chow bill!!!   ;D
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: dhallftworth on May 03, 2009, 06:01:07 PM
yea it would...
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: flagtag on May 03, 2009, 07:11:46 PM
I dont' think I saw anyone mention the trusty cast iron skillit

I'll tell you what - if I had to use my cast iron skillit on anyone and it broke, I would be EXTREMELY PO'd!!   >:(
And the fool would pay for it - again!  (and again, and again....................) ::)
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: dhallftworth on May 03, 2009, 09:20:56 PM
I'll tell you what - if I had to use my cast iron skillit on anyone and it broke, I would be EXTREMELY PO'd!!   >:(
And the fool would pay for it - again!  (and again, and again....................) ::)

I agree 100%
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: shanked on May 03, 2009, 09:54:56 PM
How about an Umbrella?

http://www.real-self-defense.com/unbreakable_umbrella.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvVnshZ8lLk

Good stuff. lol. I almost want that umbrella... that is if I ever used umbrellas.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: "Top" W. Kone on May 04, 2009, 01:18:26 PM
I think a good home weapon would one that could give you legal cover. I sat through a trial for assault for a 6'4" 250 pound guy who beat up a 5'10" 185 pound guy in the yard of the first one. The big guy claimed he was just trying to protect himself so he had to pick up the bat and hit the smaller guy. He tried to show the jury that he felt threatened by the smaller guy. In questioning the fact that he carried the bat out of the house when he went to challenge the smaller one did not help his chances.

I talked to the Asst. DA later that week and asked what would have happened if the big guy had pulled a gun? and the ADA smiled and said "I've got the word Magnum down to a four syllable growl." The whole point is that the post attack needs to be pre-planed. Walking around and making statements about shooting the attacker and dragging them in the house will not help. Nor will "my home, protected by S&W" bumper stickers. All this will be used against you to show you were trying to cause someone to be hurt/killed.

So having a spear or sword just for home defense really does not lend to legal defense. Now if you make it known that you like to "collect" spears, swords, mace's, battle hammers, etc. then you have a reason for having grabbed the nearest thing that just happened to be that cold edge spear. Or that Ren-fair battle hammer recreation.

planning, it is key to everything.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: archer on May 04, 2009, 04:23:56 PM
planning, it is key to everything.
+1, good point Brutus!
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Copyright 1972 on May 04, 2009, 06:13:49 PM
The first guy to dial 911 is the "Good guy" when it goes to trial.  So that being said, I vote the cell phone be moved twords the top of the list.

So in review, cell phone in left hand, Tomahawk in right hand, Bowie knife clenched in teeth!  ;)
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Sister Wolf on May 04, 2009, 06:32:24 PM
The first guy to dial 911 is the "Good guy" when it goes to trial.  So that being said, I vote the cell phone be moved twords the top of the list.

Ooooh, good point.  :)
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: mash on May 05, 2009, 01:46:10 AM
I brought up dogs at the beginning of this thread.  I think a well trained protective dog (I have two German Shepherds) is the best in home defense, because having a bad ass dog makes the criminal think twice before stepping foot on my property.  The guard dog prevents the crime from even occurring.  It's impossible for most of us to be on alert constantly at home, but owning a trained dog let's me relax and sleep at night knowing my house is being protected.

I get the neighborhood watch newsletter in the mailbox every month. It shows street by street how many burglaries, car thefts, etc there are.

About 75% of the houses on my street have dogs in the back yard.
We have not been listed one time.

'nuff said.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: kimbertac2 on May 05, 2009, 07:57:07 AM
re:  The first guy to dial 911 is the "Good guy" when it goes to trial.  So that being said, I vote the cell phone be moved twords the top of the list.

Absolutely correct. But prioritize. You may need to stop the attack FIRST. If you have TIME to get 911 on the phone  then great, because they record the conversation and background noises. (thus hearing you yell "stop or I'll shoot!"  "Get out of my house!" is great legal defense). But if you don't have time...Stop the threat first. Then when the aggressor is running away or has stopped moving... call 911 ASAP and before the adrenaline subsides.  So while I agree that the phone needs to be high on the list... it might be better in your pocket.   Remember the rule about dialling 911...  "When seconds count... a cop is only minutes away".   So when seconds count...  what defensive tool do you want in your hand? 
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: kimbertac2 on May 05, 2009, 08:03:37 AM
re: "Here in the UK we have very restrictive self defence laws even in our own homes."

I feel sorry for you in the UK.  I feel sorry for us here in the US too since we aren't far behind.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Copyright 1972 on May 05, 2009, 04:57:19 PM
re:  The first guy to dial 911 is the "Good guy" when it goes to trial.  So that being said, I vote the cell phone be moved twords the top of the list.

Absolutely correct. But prioritize. You may need to stop the attack FIRST.

Didn't say top of the list....  I was just making the point that you need to try to remember to get the call made.  It would be ironic to live through a home invasion, and then be sent to prison because some pukebag called 911 first and the jury believed him (happens way to often).

Just remember the jobs not over when the bad guy's down/gone.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Q_Dog on May 05, 2009, 05:05:14 PM
I know that this is for the best "HOME" defensive weapon other than a gun, but maybe something you could take into say a court house or on a plane. If anyone else posted this I apologize for copying, I just didn't have time to read every single post.

My thoughts would be one or two rolls of quarters tied into a long tube sock. Just keep a pair of socks and if questioned(which I doubt) say that your feet sweat a lot. And who will question a roll of quarters. Parking meter food.

Or possibly a heavy grade plastic sharpened into a point. Won't set off metal detectors so if you don't pull it out of your concealing area or unless you're strip searched, won't be found.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: kimbertac2 on May 05, 2009, 08:16:33 PM
Didn't say top of the list....  I was just making the point that you need to try to remember to get the call made.  It would be ironic to live through a home invasion, and then be sent to prison because some pukebag called 911 first and the jury believed him (happens way to often).

Just remember the jobs not over when the bad guy's down/gone.


I totally agree. Calling 911 should be preplanned and instinctive.... train for it ahead of time...   just like learning to shoot and move. You have to learn not to plant your feet.  Maybe dialling 911 on a cell phone should be a good step to add to an IDPA match course of fire after the targets were engaged, area confirmed secure. Or,  when reloading behind cover, dial 911 before engaging the next string. Wow. I like this idea. I'm going to bring it up with my IDPA match director.  thanks!!!!!!
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: PistolWhipped on May 05, 2009, 10:01:49 PM
I'd REALLY like the know the reason for the "no gun" rule for this individual though.  There are ways of owning a firearm legally in practically every area of the US.  Even if Kalifonistan is kinda tough about gun laws.  Just want to know why there is no gun option.  Because for the price of some of the suggested weapons here, you could get something like a youth model shotgun or a hi point carbine and have the advantage of a firearm.  I know this is a bit off topic, but the idea of "no gun" strikes a nerve with me.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Copyright 1972 on May 06, 2009, 11:14:57 AM

I totally agree. Calling 911 should be preplanned and instinctive.... train for it ahead of time...   just like learning to shoot and move. You have to learn not to plant your feet.  Maybe dialling 911 on a cell phone should be a good step to add to an IDPA match course of fire after the targets were engaged, area confirmed secure. Or,  when reloading behind cover, dial 911 before engaging the next string. Wow. I like this idea. I'm going to bring it up with my IDPA match director.  thanks!!!!!!

"When the SHTF your training (should) take over, so train how you (think) you want to react."

This has been drilled into my head for the last 11 years, and the few times I have been in a tight spot, my training HAS kicked in, and I HAVE fallen back on my training, and it HAS made a difference.  I have seen others fall apart during the same types of situations, and it makes life hard on everyone around them how are trying to do things by the books.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Copyright 1972 on May 06, 2009, 11:26:04 AM
I'd REALLY like the know the reason for the "no gun" rule for this individual though. 

Well it's simple.  Not everyone owns a gun, some people cannot own a gun, not every home defence situation calls for a gun, and you cannot carry a gun 24/7.  This thread is simply just to get people thinking of other ways to defend themselves (practical, or not  ;)  ). 

I could go into 1000 different examples here, but you should not make a gun your only option for personal defence.  If they were the best option, Police dept's around the country would not spend so much money on "Less than lethal" weapons. 

If you get locked into one line of thinking you may blind yourself to other options when your primary one fails you.

Keep yer' options, and yer'  mind open to new ideas, they will both grow stronger for it.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: PistolWhipped on May 07, 2009, 10:24:09 AM
True, but most all areas in the US have the option of a gun  I actually have other options myself, such as an Impact Baton, and intend to get an OC "pistol" in the near future.  Just was curious as to this specific instance.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: buffalosoldier on May 09, 2009, 10:54:29 PM
I believe in a dual tiered approach.

(http://www.hammerheadkennels.net/images/brindle.jpg)

(http://www.elinemerchandising.com/media/coldsteel/4111442-lg.jpg)
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Sporadic_E on May 09, 2009, 11:20:15 PM
(http://www.croatia.org/crown/content_images/Landmines_CROWN.jpg)
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Spamity Calamity on May 09, 2009, 11:36:18 PM
What about defense? Like a shield? Like one of those riot shields the cops have. Might be good to use with a one handed weapon.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Sporadic_E on May 10, 2009, 10:54:59 AM
Actually, the best defence would be to live like a mouse.... Be the grey man! If SHTF and our economy really tanks it would be most important not to tip off those who did not decide to prep. Remember that all battles you enter you have a 50% chance of loosing/dieing.

If there is a food shortage and everybody kids are loosing weight and your kids are maintaining or gaining weight, that would tip them off PDQ that you have some sort of cache!
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: barnesglobal on May 10, 2009, 09:39:30 PM
I recall another variant of the "smilies" or the tube sock with quarters.  If you put a bar of soap in a tube sock, it becomes a very effective weapon.  I have never used this, but I recall one of my friends in my youth discussing the operational effectiveness of such a weapon. 

Given prep time, i would prefer the "smilie" - bandana and padlock.  See earlier posts.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Rhino on May 13, 2009, 07:19:31 AM
A well trained dovermen pincher is my weapon of choice, if you take away my shotgun or 357
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: firefly on May 16, 2009, 09:54:28 PM
I took up boxing so that I have technique, confidence and endurance to throw effective combo's of punches.  I'm all for shooting, stabbing, or bashing a bastard if it becomes necessary.  But ask yourself, in your day to day life how often is a firearm within arms reach?  Trouble can present itself at any moment, assuming I'm conscious and sober, I always have some basic level of self-defense. 
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Lucretius on June 06, 2009, 07:47:04 AM
I took up boxing so that I have technique, confidence and endurance to throw effective combo's of punches.  I'm all for shooting, stabbing, or bashing a bastard if it becomes necessary.  But ask yourself, in your day to day life how often is a firearm within arms reach?  Trouble can present itself at any moment, assuming I'm conscious and sober, I always have some basic level of self-defense. 

+1.

That's the ONE thing you ALWAYS have - your skills.

To me, an important part is having the experience of what it feels like to be punched really hard by an expert.

Teaches you the difference between uncomfortable, but survivable, pain - and the real deal.

In a fight muscle memory, the absence of panic, and familiarity with the situation will improve the odds a lot.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: LdMorgan on June 06, 2009, 02:33:08 PM
I wonder about setting up the home a la "Home Alone" so when intruders are present you can deal with them remotely with lights, pepper sprays, and various unpleasantness with what ever level of force is needed.

Just a thought.

Unfortunately, traps are against the public policy. Gun traps, spring traps, stake pits, whatever. Any kind of boobytrap you set may injure a child, a meter reader, a fireman, a cop, or someone else who comes onto the property for good reasons or bad.

Do the Home Alone thing, and even if the swinging basket of concrete blocks saves your life (and that of you wife/hubby and/or kids) you WILL be arrested.

Anything you directly control is probably cool. Anything that is unwittingly triggered by the victim is a guaranteed no-no.

That being said, I am strongly in favor of the lethal weapon-of-opportunity if I have to kill someone in self-defence.

That's the "non-weapon" that just fell to hand, by God's Good Grace, and saved you in your Hour of Need.

All the conventional pointy things & warclubs are out--they are weapons in the first place, and were maliciously put "there" so the Defendant could "hurt somebody!"  (That's the burglar's family's lawyer warming up to the idea that you should pay damages for defending yourself, and the jury is buyin' it.)

Get one of those solid bronze lamps, the kind they sell for Tiffany-style stained glass shades, for example, and just set it by your bed. Don't even plug it in.

See...You just hadn't found a shade for it yet, and, and, and...and when that bad ole' burglar broke in you were so scared!--and you just lamped him to death!

(Thank Goodness, the lamp wasn't broken, so--eventually--you'll be able to find a shade for it!)

Well--that's one theme. Write your own variation. Be creative.

BTW--on the subject of smilies. Put a medium-small padlock on each end of a short length of chain, and you have an instant manriki-gusari. That's a Japanese weapon that was invented to kill without shedding blood (though you can shed a LOT with if you choose) and it's really effective. Strike, choke, trap, block--it does it all, and you can hide it in one hand.

Also, if you're caught outdoors where you can't just drop a rock in a sock, and you have a minute or two of warning, you can make a Mud Club.

They are very highly thought of by the CIA, among others. You just drop a big double-handful of dirt into your sock, and then pee on it. Works just like a blackjack.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: thephilosiraptor on June 11, 2009, 10:57:55 PM
I don't think anyone has posted this as an idea yet, forgive me if they have.  How about a mountaineering ice axe?  The link below is a picture of the one I own, and I think it's a great mix between a baseball bat and a sword.  the sharp end on the right side of the picture has a sharpened point that goes deep into solid ice, so I'm sure it can do some damage to an intruder.  The reverse teeth make it tough to pull out though, so that's a disadvantage if you're defending yourself against multiple bogeys, but it ensures maximum damage.  There is also the pokey end at the bottom that makes for a good dagger style defense.  Also, the shovel end on the left of the picture can be sharpened, though I don't know if it's very necessary with the other two points. Finally, this thing has very very solid construction, and would be great defensively against bladed weapons or baseball bats.  In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if a wooden baseball bat broke if it make solid enough contact with the ice axe.  http://www.campsaver.com/mmWINTERFIXCOM/Images/a/black_diamond_raven.jpg (http://www.campsaver.com/mmWINTERFIXCOM/Images/a/black_diamond_raven.jpg)
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: LdMorgan on June 12, 2009, 02:31:07 PM
Absolutely GREAT idea! The ice axe you got at a yard sale if you live in Florida, or the one you bought to go ice-fishing with if you live in cold-country.

Just grabbed it up--never thought of it being dangerous before. (Gorsh!)

Don't sharpen any part of it that isn't normally sharpened, though. That converts it into a weapon, and shows premeditation.

Like grinding a screw driver down into an ice-pick.

And who needs to do that, anyway? You can stick a Phillip's head screwdriver handle-deep in someone's skull if you just put a little practice behind it. On right into someone's liver.

I had my karate class chip in once to buy a medium-sized pig carcass. We hung Mr. Porky up and assaulted him with everything from ball-point pens, car-keys, credit cards, pocket knives, screw-drivers, nunchaku, camp hatchets, and hammers, to sai, shaken, bo, thrown knives, a baseball bat, a broken beer bottle, and my katana.

It was Bring Your Own Equalizer Night, and the ladies were every bit as equal as the men.

About the only thing we didn't so was fire him up with hairspray--or machine-gun him.

Mr. Porky was a sad sight by the time we were done, and we were having to pick him over pretty hard to find new bones to break, or pieces of old bones big enough to break again.

Fortunately, he was already out of blood before we started.

By the end of class, every single one of my students could jam a car-key key-deep into an eyeball or a throat--and they very definitely knew it.

Attempting to cover up the evidence of our activities, we then dismembered Mr. Porky, and disposed of the corpse.

We ate it.

Mr. Porky was quite delectable--he had been well and truly tenderized.

All my chunk needed was a little fire-time, sauce, some fava beans and a dry Chianti...

Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: barnesglobal on June 13, 2009, 03:35:44 PM
I like the idea of trying some of the ideas out on a pig carcuss, but where does one get a pig carcus  - at least in Texas, and can I just use a feral pig from a pig hunt?  Will that give the same idea? 

Barnesglobal
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Hare of Caerbannog on June 13, 2009, 04:53:41 PM
I would think a feral pig would work.


For me, I wouldn't use a gun for home defense in my current home because of the cheap 1969 stick walls that hold this house together.
I have blades.
I have a "vintage bayonet display" in almost every room in my house.
1890-1917 era Wilkinson 22" officer's bayonets collected from eBay and AIM Surplus, framed and conveniently on display as a repeated theme throughout the house.
None of them cost more than $50. Most came with a rifle attached!
In the garage, I have three machetes, one by every door. Two axes and three hatchets are spread around the garage.

 ;)
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Klapton on June 13, 2009, 04:54:02 PM
Baseball bat, or big Mag flashlight.

Actually, if one could fashion a spear about five feet long, that would be even better.  A deep piercing wound to the vital organs will take anyone out.  A direct thrusting movement is harder to avoid or parry than a swinging movement.  And you have the benefit of longer reach.  I'd stay around five feet in length so you don't lose the ability to use it in a hallway or doorway.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Hare of Caerbannog on June 13, 2009, 05:02:58 PM
Baseball bat, or big Mag flashlight.

Actually, if one could fashion a spear about five feet long, that would be even better.  A deep piercing wound to the vital organs will take anyone out.  A direct thrusting movement is harder to avoid or parry than a swinging movement.  And you have the benefit of longer reach.  I'd stay around five feet in length so you don't lose the ability to use it in a hallway or doorway.


I almost forgot!
1" schedule 80 PVC pipe, one end cut on the bios. 4' long.
Leaning against the microwave in the kitchen by the garage door.
Simple construction/repair item.
Very lethal.

If you open a hole like that in a BG, he's down.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: thephilosiraptor on June 13, 2009, 05:19:24 PM
Hare and Klapton,

I have to agree with ldmorgan on this one about not modifying anything and showing a lot of premeditation.  That's why I like the ice ax.  You can't throw it like a sphere, but it essentially can be used like a 3 ft long spear instead of 5 ft, and can definitely be used to stab like a spear could.  AND you can swing it like a baseball bat, only this bat has an 8 in long axe point on the end of it if you want it to.  Seems like this most versatile thing someone could possibly have around in the house, and it just looks like another piece of sporting equipment.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Hare of Caerbannog on June 13, 2009, 06:38:31 PM
thephilosiraptor
I like the Ice Ax thing. I just don't already own one or have a logical reason to own one in the eyes of a jury. 250 pound 50 year old bikers rarely go mountain climbing.
The point of my blades is that they are all integrated into "artistic historical" displays with officer's hats and canteens and such.
The PVC is clearly a leftover from the water heater installation.
And in the garage, well, there are all kinds of tools including axes and hatchets and things.
The idea being that a jury would see a guy with regular things. Not some Ninja Nut looking for an excuse to hurt someone.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: thephilosiraptor on June 13, 2009, 06:41:30 PM
Hare,

True good point.  I suppose a jury would consider whether or not someone would be climbing or not.  And the displays make good sense.  It was the PVC that caught my attention, but you have a point, it would probably be pretty easy to write off as a project leftover. 
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Angie on June 13, 2009, 10:10:42 PM
It's really a crying shame that honest citizens have to worry about being charged with a crime for protecting they home and family.  I've thought about it and I don't want to be close enough to an invader to use a contact weapon.  What about a fireplace poker.  Mine has a sharp end that would take an eye out - probably go right into the brain.  If you've got a fireplace, a poke is certainly something you'd have.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Copyright 1972 on June 14, 2009, 09:01:49 AM

What about a fireplace poker. 


<giggles like a school girl>  I LIKE IT!  That's +1 to you Angie!
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Hare of Caerbannog on June 14, 2009, 09:59:04 AM
Angie, you crack me up.
Your avatar looks so pleasant. Like a Sunday School teacher or a real-estate broker, or maybe a bank teller. Someone that could be you kids favorite librarian.
Yet you are so practical and down-to-earth.
"Yea, just bust their skull open with a fire place poker!"
ROFL
I love that.
+1 for you.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: LdMorgan on June 14, 2009, 11:14:57 AM
at least in Texas, and can I just use a feral pig from a pig hunt?  Will that give the same idea? 

Barnesglobal

It will--pigs are very much like people, except that they can find truffles better.

Alternatively, you can buy a chilled pig from any packing-house, or order one thru just about any butcher's shop. They're very popular with the Big Barbecue fans.

If you use a whole feral pig, be sure to conduct your experiment outdoors. Preferably WAY outdoors. If you don't bleed out the carcass and dump the intestines before you start, it'll get very messy very quickly.

You'll probably be ankle deep in guts (and their contents) by about the third knife strike.

Likewise of you are not going to waste the meat you'll want to officially clean the carcass after practice, and wash it thoroughly. And don't be slow about that. Try to get the whole project over with as quickly after you kill the pig as possible.

If you live-trap the pig, kill it as humanely as possible before you start the training session. Three reasons spring to mind for that: 1. Needless cruelty is a sin. 2. Needless cruelty to an animal is a crime. 3. If the pig gets one last bite in, he'll win the battle, even if he loses the war.

BTW--I don't mean to imply that you would not automatically kill the pig in a humane way. What I mean is put a bullet in his brain. Any other attempt at a humane kill--say with a sword or bo strike--would really be experimental, and might not do the job as quickly or as painlessly.

I'm definitely not one of those "if you kill it, you have to eat it" types (especially since I kill flies and cockroaches as a matter of course) but I'm definitely against the infliction of needless pain and injury.

One thing about doing a Mr. Porky Project, though: It'll lay some serious reality on your students, especially when they find out how hard the don't punch and/or kick, and re-prioritize their choice of targets in a big way.


Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Angie on June 15, 2009, 08:18:08 AM
I am a Registered Nurse, I worked the ER for years.  I have seen many victims.  I made up my mind NEVER to be a victim.  However, the weapon that I've seen that causes the most damage is a police dog.  I've seen GSW, blunt trauma wounds, knife wounds you name it, but the most terrible wounds I've ever seen was caused by a police dog.  After seeing those wounds, I haven't be able to pet a german shepard or doberman since.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: dhallftworth on June 15, 2009, 10:26:17 AM
ok I have a wild one for yall.... How about a wild boar for a guard animal?? Imagine breaking into a house and hearing something snorting... First though "oh these people have a pig" Second though.. "Are those tusk on that pig?" Third though "Holy Crap" Fourth Though"......" there will be no fourth though... haha Boars are killer mean!!!!  ;D
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: shangrily on June 15, 2009, 10:41:50 AM
Crossbow?
I think a good ax on a long handle will make anyone think twice
umm chainsaw if not just for the mental o shit someone has if you come at them with one.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: dhallftworth on June 15, 2009, 10:44:15 AM
Crossbow?
I think a good ax on a long handle will make anyone think twice
umm chainsaw if not just for the mental o shit someone has if you come at them with one.

your from the south aint ya?
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: shangrily on June 15, 2009, 10:49:13 AM
your from the south aint ya?
dam a lot of people ask me that

Kansas sorry
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: dhallftworth on June 15, 2009, 10:51:19 AM
lol ok so rural Kansas??
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: shangrily on June 15, 2009, 10:54:29 AM
not even that Wichita the air capital.
were the air capital because everyone wants out and a plain is the fastest way
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: dhallftworth on June 15, 2009, 10:55:21 AM
well damn...  ;D
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: homeshow on June 15, 2009, 02:02:57 PM

Posted by: shangrily 

"Crossbow?
I think a good ax on a long handle will make anyone think twice "





i got to go with the yankee/city boy on this one.  a pissed off redneck with a ax or a baseball bat in an enclosed room aint exactly a good time had by all.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: djturnz on June 17, 2009, 09:35:52 AM
I would say an expandible baton.

Or maybe a pepperball gun and a gas mask?
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: liftsboxes on June 17, 2009, 09:52:30 AM
After some thought and a recent experience, I don't think that what you grab to scare off an intruder matters at much as the confidence with which you weild it.  Evidently a rolled up newspaper works pretty well when you come at someone clad in boxers with an angry look on your face and sounding your "barbaric yawp" without restraint.  Confused drunken intruder repelled successfully.  I'm sure he has a good story now too.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Hare of Caerbannog on June 17, 2009, 11:14:49 AM
After some thought and a recent experience, I don't think that what you grab to scare off an intruder matters at much as the confidence with which you weild it.  Evidently a rolled up newspaper works pretty well when you come at someone clad in boxers with an angry look on your face and sounding your "barbaric yawp" without restraint.  Confused drunken intruder repelled successfully.  I'm sure he has a good story now too.

First: I agree
Second: Don't forget to have someone film that next time it happens ;D ;D
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: liftsboxes on June 18, 2009, 07:24:02 AM
First: I agree
Second: Don't forget to have someone film that next time it happens ;D ;D

In all fairness to the "intruder,"  I live in a condo complex where the units look a lot alike.  I'd wager a fair amount that he just wandered onto the wrong porch from a bbq that was going on a few units down the way.  Evidently, however, I'm scary in my underware.  Who knew?
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: mash on June 30, 2009, 11:44:06 PM
I have blades.
I have a "vintage bayonet display" in almost every room in my house.
1890-1917 era Wilkinson 22" officer's bayonets collected from eBay and AIM Surplus, framed and conveniently on display as a repeated theme throughout the house.
None of them cost more than $50. Most came with a rifle attached!
In the garage, I have three machetes, one by every door. Two axes and three hatchets are spread around the garage.

 ;)

(note to self: don't break into Hare's place)

It's really a crying shame that honest citizens have to worry about being charged with a crime for protecting they home and family.

I agree with you there Angie. But unfortunately it's something we need to take into account.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: shangrily on July 01, 2009, 01:12:22 PM
In all fairness to the "intruder,"  I live in a condo complex where the units look a lot alike.  I'd wager a fair amount that he just wandered onto the wrong porch from a bbq that was going on a few units down the way.  Evidently, however, I'm scary in my underware.  Who knew?
lol i think anyone pissed off in the underwear is scary...
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: anthonyalston on July 01, 2009, 01:23:19 PM
I like the wrist rocket slingshot and a marble.
It's inexpensive and can be used effectively.

Best of all, it's not going to go through the wall
and kill an innocent neighbor.

Those decorative vases filled with marbles are now functional and beautiful :)

Regards, Anthony
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Jimbo on July 01, 2009, 02:19:12 PM

 I'm looking to make a Manrikigusari, a Japanese flail weapon. All you need is a dog choke chain, two 3 oz fishing weights, and 2 sets of nuts & bolts. A fishing weight sewed or pinned in a newsboy or other cap is evil as well. ;)
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: liftsboxes on July 01, 2009, 02:40:14 PM
ghurka knife might be a good option ...

http://www.bobticeknives.com/4-1-ghurka2.jpg (http://www.bobticeknives.com/4-1-ghurka2.jpg)(http://www.bobticeknives.com/4-1-ghurka2.jpg)
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Punyal on July 01, 2009, 07:02:37 PM
I prep my place with anything sharp. But this is good only if you are living alone.Denatured alcohol
in a squeezable bottle./ always tpe a lighter on it. one that works.

So far what I learned is mental preparedness. In any area anything can be a weapon.The first 3 seconds
is crucial to decision making. Surprise element.
I usually carry my knife upside down , readyto grab by the blade first.Not to stab but throw.
Act when there is a distance available.

with knives ,I like serrated double bladers. Life & death situation always in mind.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Sgt_Dan on July 28, 2009, 08:24:39 PM
Ok, I'm gonna admit up front I only read a handful of posts on this thread before replying, so if this was already covered I apologize.

I have taken a few Iaido classes and performed a few tatami mat cuts, but am FAR from an expert.  One thing I have to say about resorting to a sword as a "no gun" option of home defense is (yes I know Jack stated this) you REALLY NEED SOME LEVEL OF TRAINING.  It's too easy to hurt yourself with an authentic cutting sword.  Even during the cleaning and care a slight mistake can claim a finger or worse.  I was cleaning my sword after a cut, got a tiny bit distracted and was lucky to not lose a finger, but rather just what seemed like a lot of blood.  That was from a mere scratch.  These swords are so razor sharp you may not even feel a cut immediately.  They can HONESTLY cut through bone like "a hot knife through butter."

That said, it ABSOLUTELY is a deadly weapon and deserves the same care and handling as any loaded firearm.  It can (in trained hands) completely and effectively end a confrontation.  Space would be an issue.  If you're in a small confined space you may not have to ability to effectively employ it.  Some ceilings may not be high enough to perform overhead cuts (kesa) or walls may prevent side-to-side abdomen cuts (do).  Of course if for some reason I didn't have my firearms I would certainly still consider my sword before nothing in a life or death defensive situation.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Sgt_Dan on July 28, 2009, 08:35:09 PM
One should keep in mind that a well made katana or wakizashi can EASILY cost around 4 grand.  The pieces you can pick up online with the fancy imitation sheaths are absolutely useless as a weapon.  You might get through enough meat to get it stuck in a piece of bone, but it will almost surely be a one-stab wonder.  Replicas are not weapons.

I picked up a good authentic cutting sword for around $400.  It's nothing fancy, but it WILL get the job done.  In fact, I bought it around Christmas time and decided to test it against a hard target (rather then relatively soft tatami mats) and used my Christmas Tree.  Sword 1 - Christmas Tree - 0.  No dents and still razor sharp blade.  I've cut bamboo, tatami and even sugarcane (I don't recommend it since it's hard to clean).

http://www.zanshinironworks.com/product.php?prod_id=124&cid=94 (http://www.zanshinironworks.com/product.php?prod_id=124&cid=94)
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Klapton on July 29, 2009, 08:37:17 AM
Thrusting with a piercing weapon will have a greater chance of success in an enclosed space than swinging a blunt or edged weapon.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: CTF250 on July 29, 2009, 03:41:35 PM
Ok I m gonna have to add one here

How about a big dog and a loiusville?

Though I do like the slingshot and marble idea! :P
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: homeshow on July 30, 2009, 06:38:08 AM
Sgt. Dan you are a mean bastard to show me that link.  Susan would kill me if i got what i wanted there.  the shobu zukuri with a custom tsuba w/ 3 scallop shells would be sweet.  the 3 scallop shells are on the family crest.  mean just mean!! ;D
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: phuttan on July 31, 2009, 05:24:54 PM
I would have to go with a cane because I have a permanently injured ankle and always have one handy.
That said, I would use whatever was within reach. Chair, vase, pot of stew, pick handle, shovel, pen, etc. Anything is a weapon if you use it as one. I also like the idea of a little lady changing a slime ball's attitude with a boiling pot of stew.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: donaldj on August 05, 2009, 08:37:15 PM
"what is the best home defense weapon if you can't own a gun"

The one you practice with.

All melee weapons are lethal in the right hands. They existed in history because they were effective. So, literally, pick one you like and are likely to stick with, and TRAIN.

I dislike tazers and mace because they are reliant on power and target susceptibility, respectively.

That being said, I like the wakizashi or tanto. I see the single edge as being advantageous over a double edge, since there are more parries and other techniques you can do with it. I also train in these weapons in my jujutsu class 2-3 times each week. I think nunchaku, flails, etc need to be disqualified because of limitations in tight quarters.

But whatever you choose, it's still the one you practice with that will be the best for you.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Johnny Swampwalker on August 06, 2009, 10:18:39 PM
I'm sooo glad this thread is still open.

As a Canadian, I can relate to not being able to use a handgun for personal defence. While you can defend your home with lethal force if required, grabbing an obvious weapon can be considered 'intent to do harm' instead of defence, and could set you up for prosecution.

Hey, I didn't write the law, I just have to live with it.

In that regard, I think a fire extinguisher, mentioned by P Coltrane, is an excellent idea. Not an obvious weapon, easy to excuse having one in your bedroom, able to be used up to 15 feet (Point, Aim Shoot, Sweep). I don't think any intruder would be able to shield himself from a blast of dry chemical, giving you plenty of time to crack him 'upside the head with 5 lbs. of steel. ;D I had the misfortune of having one discharge inside my work vehicle (not while driving)...even a month after cleaning it up I could still taste that crap.

Now, In Jack's defence, I think the samurai sword is still a good idea, with some training:

1. A katana is not really an impact weapon, like a broadsword, but more like a 3 foot razor blade. You don't have to swing it over your head to do damage. You can thrust forward to hit anywhere from the throat down to the crotch. A flick of the wrist will disarm an opponent if you hit the forearm or wrist.

2. In a standard (chudan) stance, sword held with both hands in center of body at about navel height with tip aimed at opponent's throat, you would be in a very good defensive position - anyone who didn't have a projectile weapon would have an impossible task getting close to you without exposing any part of himself to a strike.

3. The intimidation factor is truly awesome. I'm sure someone coming into a hallway and facing someone in the above chudan stance would likely load his pants.

I also like Cold Haven's sai idea...it could be used to disarm someone as well as strike or block. They're also just cool. Sai kata is art in motion.

Thanks for the awesome thread everyone. Very inspiring.

Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: barnesglobal on August 07, 2009, 05:56:44 AM
I think a Kama would also be functional.  Of course it requires training.  Down side is it is not something most people just have laying around.

Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: robt871 on August 31, 2009, 01:44:02 PM
I just got these loaded to youtube.  This was for the reserve police academy of 1998 for Lewis County WA.  This was shot behind the fire house in Napavine Wa.  I had already been through an OC10 class, so I got to video this one.  Please forgive the quality as it went from vhs to dvd to digital.

OC10 Training 1 of 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8ESahuh09M#normal)
OC10 Training 2 of 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhOlm_kKxjM#normal)
OC10 Training 3 of 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Mqnz0kU3Fk#normal)
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Darkwinter on September 15, 2009, 08:08:17 PM
OK help me out folks a person asked me "what is the best home defense weapon if you can't own a gun",  I mentioned it and this thread on today's show.

My two answers Tazer or Katana (Samari sword)  My view of each

Tazer - effective and less then lethal which are both advantages.  Big disadvantage is it is not very effective on multiple invaders.

Katana - highly deadly, very fast and proven.  Disadvantages, requires training, close range only. 

I won't make big case here from either and I don't need you to either just yet.  For now just suggest any weapon that can be used with a bit of why it is good for home defense.  Once this thread runs a while I will compile all the suggestions and we can run a poll, we should learn some interesting things with this one.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32855934/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32855934/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/)
Cops: Student uses sword to kill intruder
Cuts off man's hand, lacerates his upper body, police say


updated 6:42 p.m. ET, Tues., Sept . 15, 2009
BALTIMORE - A Johns Hopkins University student armed with a samurai sword killed a suspected burglar in a garage behind his off-campus home early Tuesday, hours after someone broke in and stole electronics.

Some shocked neighbors said they heard bloodcurdling screams in an area just blocks from the university. Police held the student, a junior chemistry major who turns 21 on Sunday, for several hours, but no charges were filed by early afternoon, said police spokesman Anthony Guglielmi.

Around 1:20 a.m., the student heard noises behind the home and noticed a door to the garage was open, Guglielmi said. He grabbed the sword and confronted the intruder — identified by police as Donald D. Rice, 49, a habitual offender who had just been released from jail.

Rice was crouching beneath a counter, police said. The student asked him what he was doing and threatened to call police.

"When he said that, the suspect lunged at him, kind of forced the kid against the wall, and he struck him with the sword," Guglielmi said.

‘Hanging on by a thread’
Rice's left hand was nearly severed — Guglielmi described it as "hanging on by a thread" — and he suffered a severe cut to the upper body. He died at the scene.

On Monday, two laptops and a Sony PlayStation were stolen from the student's home, which he shares with three other students, but police were not sure whether Rice was responsible, Guglielmi said.

There was a pool of blood Tuesday morning in the brick courtyard between the back porch of the home and the garage. The courtyard was strewn with debris, including what looked like broken glass.

Guglielmi did not know why the student kept a sword. He said he may have had some martial arts training, but was not an expert.

Rice's criminal history includes more than two dozen arrests for burglary, breaking and entering and auto theft. According to court records, he was charged in 2007 after he pulled a gun on a police officer, though prosecutors placed those charges on hold because the officer was on military leave.

Rice was convicted in 2008 of unauthorized removal of property and sentenced to 18 months. He was released Saturday from the Baltimore County Detention Center.

Several nearby residents said the community has experienced a rash of petty crimes in recent months, including home, garage and vehicle break-ins. Many homes have bars on windows and stickers advertising alarm systems.

‘I could tell someone was scared’
Michael Hughes, 43, said he was getting ready for bed when he heard the screams.

"There was fear in the voice. I could tell someone was scared," Hughes said.

Hughes called 911, and several police cars arrived while he was on the phone. Campus security officers and an off-duty city officer who were in the area responding to a suspicious person report also heard the screams.

The diverse neighborhood includes a mix of students, professors and families, said Hughes, who lives with his wife and young children and works for the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, which is on another campus across town.

"There seems to be a noticeable increase in crime in the neighborhood," Hughes said. "I am concerned for my family's safety."





Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Darkwinter on September 15, 2009, 08:10:26 PM
Sounds like a sword is a fairly effective tool Jack!
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: StillAlive on September 18, 2009, 02:24:41 PM
If you are looking for a non lethal option that is effective check out the Tigerlight

http://www.tigerlight.net/T100.html?p=STANLEE (http://www.tigerlight.net/T100.html?p=STANLEE)


Its a combination pepperspray/LED flashlight that stopped 96% of attacks in an LA sherrifs dept study.

I recently endorsed the product and have begun teaching womens self defense seminars promoting it because you can purchase inert "practice" canisters for it and actually run through some application practice.

Most pepper spray users have never "practiced" with their weapon for fear of actually spraying someone. This system allows you to really get the physical movements of aiming and firing the weapon into muscle memory without hurting your training partners.

The super bright led flashlight can temporary blind an attacker by itself, and can also allow you to safely identify a threat before blasting them. Watch the Video and you'll understand what I mean.

Buy it through the link I posted and I get a referral fee, I'll donate a portion of that to the members support brigade :)
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: JokersWild on September 19, 2009, 11:56:15 PM
Sorry folks, but laughed my ass off at the thought of me taking on a home invader with a samurai sword! :D   I really think that is a bad idea on many levels unless you've had training in close quarters sword fighting (LOL) with wives, kids, dogs, gnomes or what ever running around in a panic while you try to take on the bad guys. 

Same with crossbows BTW.  Not a good option as you will have to draw back string and load, find target, aim, shoot, and pray to god you got it right. 

I keep a 6 D cell MagLite (skull splitter) by my bed (w/glock) and wife has police grade OC-baton (w/S&W .38 crimson trace grips).  Other than the maglite and OC, I have a fish club in the garage and an expandable baton (ASP) in the den. 

For ease of use, I'd encourage ASP and/or maglight, though both require close contact with enemy. 

BP

For those people who feel they have no other option (I myself would keep a firearm regardless) and feel they must follow the law or code it beats the option of nothing as demonstrated here:

Quote
Hopkins undergraduate John Pontolillo used a samurai sword to kill an intruder in his off-campus residence at the 300 block of E. University Parkway early Tuesday morning.

via David Codrea (http://www.examiner.com/x-1417-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2009m9d16-Johns-Hopkins-advises-surrender-not-swords)

But what really chaps my ass in the article from whence that quote comes is this:

Quote
The senior from Wall, Pa., has not yet been charged with any crime, although investigations remain ongoing, according to Moses.

Self-defense is a human right. However journalists, such as above, obviously believe that anyone that defends themselves are more criminal than the ones that lost their lives. Yet another reason why I truly despide most "authorized journalists".
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: CountryRootsCityJob on November 02, 2009, 09:38:34 AM
Well I just spent 2 1/2 hrs reading through all the options... shouldn't there be a poll up by now?  Anywho, here's what I've gathered so far...

-Who cares what it is, train with it and train with it some more!
-Dogs/wild boars (Funny, nobody mentioned cats. Another reason I love dogs... they will protect me!  A cat would probably watch me be killed and then rub up against the killers legs and pur- sorry for the rant, i got distracted... oh look, something shiney ;D )
-Swords/knives- and lots of discussion on what would be better... (Japanese names I can't remember how to spell down to the K-bar I have next to my bed)
-Spears
-Hatchet/axe/chainsaw (stihl 044 with a 28" bar if I am correct?)
-Crowbars/plybars/wrecking bars/rebar/baseball bats/clubs/medieval war hammers and such...
-mace/pepper spray/pepper grenades/pepper balls for paintball guns/frozen paintballs (they won't mess up your gun btw- I've done it)
-squirt guns of amonia
-flame throwers with razor blades/fire extinguishers
-Mother-in-law's (MIL)
-pewter lamp without a shade... not plugged in, just by chance ;)
-Cell phone
-Remote controlled thingies of doom/alarms/traps (it was mentioned that you should probably keep it legal and safe for family members, meaning don't use traps)
-Flash lights (Maglite/surefire)/ did anybody talk about possibilities of a strobe light?  That can play tricks on a person!

I think I got most of them... so here's a few ideas of my own:
*Hot coffee (It did a number on the lady who won the law suit against McD's)/soup
*Mother in law's cooking... leftovers "accidentally left out on the table overnight" - Who knows, the BG could be hungry, but he'd pay for it later! :P (Note, I do love my MIL)
*Add this one to the animal list... PET Raccoon... even worse, SKUNK! (Even with glands removed, who would dare?  Just let that little guy loose if you hear a noise... NOTE: Cleanup might be a problem, but that will be a problem with ANYTHING!)
*Smoke bombs and firecrackers could really make things exciting!  (dangerous too... maybe not a good idea)- OH< how about those firecrackers that go off when you pull the strings!  I LOVE THOSE THINGS!!! ...wonder where you can get those now days...

I still liked the medieval war hammer/battle axe/mace... although we should all do well to keep in mind what we'll say when some up-and-coming DA is asking us questions in front of the jury  :-\  <SIGH>

~CRCJ
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: madcap1one on November 02, 2009, 11:04:53 AM
Way back when we taught self defense to women in urban environments, we suggested the following (some already mentioned) as means of stalling and escaping the confrontation. Our goal was never to "win" a confrontation for our students, it was to gain time to survive the encounter via escape - so we tended away from weapons such as swords and axes, and being in Daley-land, evil firearms werent an option for our students.

Fire extinguishers - for up close we liked training our students to spray contents and then thrust the empty canister into vital areas(swinging wide leaves one open to counters.) We liked this, because it forced our students to check their current extinguishers for expiration and pressure (come on folks of TSP, make a note to check yours TODAY!!!) It also made our students consider placing additional extinguishers (they arent that expensive at your local home supply store, Home Depot, Lowes, Menards, etc.) in strategic places such as kitchen, all exterior doors, hvac room, etc. Also for my PSA of the day, when you check your extinguishers, check your smoke and carbon monoxide detectors for function and battery, this should have been done this past weekend with the time change - do it, if nothing else, it can be your prep of the day!!!)

Old fashioned telephones (corded) - totally innocuous, no weaponlike qualities, can be swung at huge velocity after dialing 911, approximating a nunchuk, takes no special training (although dont clonk yourself on the head - you should practice at least a few times...) reaches around corners when swung, keeps it deliberately off the hook for the automated 911 callback

Cast iron skillet - mentioned above, we loved them, but can be a bit heavy especially when shorthandled for smaller folks

Woks - yep, if you stir fry, the wok normally has a longer handle, is heavy enough for damage, and can be inverted as a shield when using the short grip handle opposite the long pan like handle

Cooking oil - if someone is coming in the back kitchen door, dump the oil you keep on the counter onto the floor and flee the other way, always slows them down in pursuit when they are flat on their rear ends.

Flour - do you keep a canister of flour on the counter, it blinds when tossed in the face, buying valuable escape time

Basically, what we were trying to instill is the mindset (also mentioned above) that our student could survive a negative confrontation through innovative and creative use of the items at hand - at least well enough to escape, if not to prevail face to face.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: joeinwv on November 06, 2009, 11:01:45 AM
Being an occasional pipe / cigar smoker, one of my all time favorite melee weapons has got to be the big, glass ashtray. I used to have a brown-orange one from the 70's that was at least 8" diameter and had a 1/2" thick rim.

Point being, if I have no gun I am going to use whatever is at my disposal. I've always been a big fan of using the wall - of course, you swing the person at the wall as opposed to swinging the wall at them... bonus if you live in an old house with real plaster walls. (I do)
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Jimbo on November 07, 2009, 07:41:05 AM
 Easy off oven cleaner is demonic to the peepers! :o
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: liftsboxes on November 07, 2009, 08:37:16 AM
any aerosol and a lighter
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Aiedz on November 08, 2009, 09:38:04 AM
if you are forced to live some where with out a gun, i would get a stout blunt object, a baseball bat with nails in it, or a piece of timber shaved down and roughly shaped, with nails in it. there are also "adult" home-made traps in a few movies you could copy, most notable a piece of plywood with nails out one end, stuck strategically under a window at night. but the best answer has already been said, that would be a decent guard dog. get one with a sociopathic personality, and you won't even have to do much training. nails. 
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: homeshow on November 19, 2009, 05:07:35 PM
Kenmore 14 piece stainless steel pots and pans set.  nice and heavy pans you can kill anyone with them.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Hare of Caerbannog on November 19, 2009, 05:21:25 PM
any aerosol and a lighter
Even if you don't kill the intruder, he'll mess his pants!
 :D
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: liftsboxes on November 23, 2009, 03:01:57 PM
Even if you don't kill the intruder, he'll mess his pants!
 :D

I'll be fine if he just makes like Michael Jackson ... hair on fire and moonwalkin' his ass right back out the door.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: firefly on November 29, 2009, 07:33:12 PM
Question: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun

This

(http://i710.photobucket.com/albums/ww107/firefly8112/th_kdk_0220.jpg)

I get nervous when my buddy has this thing in his hand. 
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: kiteflyer on November 29, 2009, 07:45:29 PM

 A good old pitch fork with plenty bad germs all over the prongs come to mind here in Texas!

        kiteflyer
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: OC Celtic Lass on December 05, 2009, 12:00:15 AM
If many are already in the home armed with guns or knives and there is just me with no gun and cornered, I like the idea of the fire extinguisher to deter them from a distance for me to escape. Even a single person with a gun already in the home could only be deterred from a distance with a fire extinguisher, in order to escape, unless you are skilled with a whip or throwing knives, spears or hatchets. If they are in the home and I do not have a gun, a stun gun, knife, bat or anything works to fight. It's really hard if they have a gun and I do not. Even the sound of a shot gun scares burglars away.......I've already done that. Dogs are great to hear a break in while sleeping and protect. At night time, I like to keep the house dark inside with all of the curtains open with the lights on outside. I do like advantage.

After this discussion, I am going to make some strategic changes. Time to make sure I throw the hatchet well again. Thanks
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: pht on December 09, 2009, 05:19:51 PM
Your smarts.  ;D

Beyond that, I'd say machete - swords, while purpose designed for use against humans, can be VERY expensive for good, useable ones, and you can actually get out and use a machete in your yard enough to learn how to not chop your toes off or plant it into your shin (which is ASTOUNDINGLY easy to do with one).

Also, large blades have a serious scare factor.

Beyond a machete (and enough experience to actually USE it in times of fear and pressure), I'm just going to say... whatever is at hand. This is why mind set is more important in many ways. Stop, look around you, right now, and figure out a way to use whatever is at hand as a weapon. Doing so can come up with some INTERESTING ideas.

OH... about tazers and other shock weapons: they are not non-lethal.   Properly said, they "usually aren't" lethal. People need to know, that it only takes about 1/4 amp of power to stop a beating heart, if directly applied to said.

On that note, perhaps those in the more idiotic places that require you to be victims, you might be able to, say, get a cattle prod.
I do tend to be of the attitude that it's easier to get out of jail than a grave.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Eric D. on December 12, 2009, 08:23:09 AM
A Katana, while very lethal, is a bad idea for a myriad of reasons:
1. it's damn near useless in hallways and doorframes except as a straight stabbing weapon.
2. it's got a wider radius of effectiveness, which is good against another long-weapon, but makes it easier to "get inside" that radius.
3. slower followup strikes.
4. any katana that you pay less than $300 bucks for will likely break very quickly during hard use with passionate intent.  I have a handmade "battle ready" katana that cost $350, and a folded steel katana that cost over $1000.  Neither would be my first grab.

In my opinion, you can't get much more deadly than a kukri.  This weapon was designed for close-in lopping-off of limbs.  You can pick up the cold-steel machete version for about $20, and I have yet to find something it couldn't chop.  Follow up shots are fast, and the range can be as long as my arm or as short as my wrist.  It also leaves my left hand free for either grabbing the fool, or holding a can of Fox Labs pepper spray.

Which brings me to my second point.  Someone recently tried to break into my ex-girlfriend's house (he wasn't a stranger, but her sister's ex, drunk and angry).  Luckily, I'd bought her two cans of Fox Labs.  As soon as he got the door open, she opened up on him right in the face with Fox Labs, and he was back out the door as fast as he'd come in, stumbing blindly and screaming.  She locked the door and called the cops, and he didn't even try to get away - just laid in the fetal position and cried.

WARNING - pepper spray is NOT NOT NOT an advancing weapon.  It is a RETREAT weapon.  DO NOT advance through an area you've previously sprayed in, or you will get hit as well.  Only use it while retreating.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Son_of_the_Republic on January 10, 2010, 06:25:33 AM
My life was saved with a telescopic baton one time coming home from a freinds house.Got chased by a gang of teenage thugs.I managed to enter a private driveway that had a car parked right in front of the door of the house.Just enough room to get myself between the car bonnet and the house.I deployed the baton and turned to face my pursers who were armed with kitchen knives.The combination of baton lenght and the car as a shield/blockade gave me a reach advangtage as well as protection from a direct assualt.Eventually my pursurers got tired of getting whacked about the the arms and shoulders with the baton.Those things really hurt and I would not want to get hit across the head with one.

Never leave home without one.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: OC Celtic Lass on January 10, 2010, 01:03:20 PM
My life was saved with a telescopic baton one time coming home from a freinds house.Got chased by a gang of teenage thugs.I managed to enter a private driveway that had a car parked right in front of the door of the house.Just enough room to get myself between the car bonnet and the house.I deployed the baton and turned to face my pursers who were armed with kitchen knives.The combination of baton lenght and the car as a shield/blockade gave me a reach advangtage as well as protection from a direct assualt.Eventually my pursurers got tired of getting whacked about the the arms and shoulders with the baton.Those things really hurt and I would not want to get hit across the head with one.

Never leave home without one.

This is a great example of protection and arm reach. Probably could get same or similar results with numb chucks or metal bat. Thanks.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: OC Celtic Lass on January 10, 2010, 01:07:24 PM
Someone recently tried to break into my ex-girlfriend's house (he wasn't a stranger, but her sister's ex, drunk and angry).  Luckily, I'd bought her two cans of Fox Labs.  As soon as he got the door open, she opened up on him right in the face with Fox Labs, and he was back out the door as fast as he'd come in, stumbing blindly and screaming.  She locked the door and called the cops, and he didn't even try to get away - just laid in the fetal position and cried.

WARNING - pepper spray is NOT NOT NOT an advancing weapon.  It is a RETREAT weapon.  DO NOT advance through an area you've previously sprayed in, or you will get hit as well.  Only use it while retreating.

You brought up some good tips with a simple more common event. Thanks
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: fastbackjack on January 10, 2010, 11:49:57 PM
Hey guys,
I'm a longtime lurker and first time poster. I saw this thread and just had to comment.

No offense to Jack, but I think a katana is an awful choice as a home defense weapon. Yes it is a highly deadly weapon, it is very fast and proven, WHEN it is wielded by a skilled user. In the hands of a novice it is deadly, to yourself, very slow and not proven for household defense. Can one imagine their wife needing to pick up a katana to fend off some attackers, or a teen?

My suggestion is cost effective and based on a design that human beings have been using for around 50,000 years.
Its a simple metal tee-ball bat. I mean lets face it, every one knows how to use a club just about as well as their fist. It's natural.

If someone had absolutely needed to spend more than the $10 on a bat i would recommend this number from cold steel.
http://www.coldsteel.com/gunstockwarclub.html (http://www.coldsteel.com/gunstockwarclub.html)

I have one and it rests by my bed every night. It has multiple uses in close quarters. It can be swung two handed like a bat. Either side is good to hit someone with and it has a carbon steel spike that might give someone a headache. It can also be held in two hands cross wise, with the spike out, to push an attacker off you. It has many attack angles making it pretty deadly any way you use it. They can also be had pretty cheaply on ebay. I believe I got mine for $30 with shipping.

Anyway that's my two cents. Enjoy.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: StillAlive on January 11, 2010, 10:09:15 AM
If you are looking for a non lethal option that is effective check out the Tigerlight

http://www.tigerlight.net/T100.html?p=STANLEE (http://www.tigerlight.net/T100.html?p=STANLEE)


Its a combination pepperspray/LED flashlight that stopped 96% of attacks in an LA sherrifs dept study.

I recently endorsed the product and have begun teaching womens self defense seminars promoting it because you can purchase inert "practice" canisters for it and actually run through some application practice.

Most pepper spray users have never "practiced" with their weapon for fear of actually spraying someone. This system allows you to really get the physical movements of aiming and firing the weapon into muscle memory without hurting your training partners.

The super bright led flashlight can temporary blind an attacker by itself, and can also allow you to safely identify a threat before blasting them. Watch the Video and you'll understand what I mean.

Buy it through the link I posted and I get a referral fee, I'll donate a portion of that to the members support brigade :)



Here is a video link

TigerLight T100 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLmpGREuRsI#normal)
[/quote]
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: OC Celtic Lass on January 11, 2010, 11:55:41 AM
Looks good! Also they showed some examples of use.........even on the street with people. What is nice is you can spray at a suspect just holding another. That was interesting. Thanks!
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: KYdoomer on January 11, 2010, 12:28:11 PM
Country, I'm right there with you.  Just the options....  Good God.

I know swords sound really cool and they can be used in other ways but you don't want anything you have to swing over your head or to the side.  It isn't the same thing but I fought sword and shield in the SCA for 5 years.  My tactic was one that NO ONE used.  All of my oponents used 4 foot long rattan swords and threw punches instead of fighting.  I used a sword that was about 2 feet long.  They swung and as they recovered, I moved in and shield locked them, tiptoed, and then I bashed them in the helm until they gave in.  They literally could get no momentum on their sword when I was up grinning in their face.  Don't expect an intruder to stand at just the right distance.

You have three zones.  Zone 1 is distance.  This is where a gun would work.  If the burglar has one and you don't you either hide, retreat, close or deceive (make him/her think you have a gun). 

Zone 2 is the zone you need him/her to be at to strike with a swung weapon (this is very small).

Zone 3 is grappling distance.  Knife distance.

Another thing about blunt objects, you'd be surprised what someone could take.  I'm the biggest wimp out there but people beat me until blood vessels burst.  I've had ass to ankles black and blue before (I hated the weight of armor).

That being said, machetes would be excellent.  A good fighting knife would be excellent. 

J


Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: secutorclaudius on February 07, 2010, 04:02:45 PM
i don't know about katanas, too long, and if u r like me, waking up from sleep, all groggy, u could hurt yourself. i have a falcata, heavy blow, not too sharp, but can easily break bone. i think a gladius would be good, maybe paired with a knife?
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Cool Blue on February 07, 2010, 07:03:48 PM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32855934/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32855934/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/)
Cops: Student uses sword to kill intruder
Cuts off man's hand, lacerates his upper body, police say


updated 6:42 p.m. ET, Tues., Sept . 15, 2009
BALTIMORE - A Johns Hopkins University student armed with a samurai sword killed a suspected burglar in a garage behind his off-campus home early Tuesday, hours after someone broke in and stole electronics.

Some shocked neighbors said they heard bloodcurdling screams in an area just blocks from the university. Police held the student, a junior chemistry major who turns 21 on Sunday, for several hours, but no charges were filed by early afternoon, said police spokesman Anthony Guglielmi.

Around 1:20 a.m., the student heard noises behind the home and noticed a door to the garage was open, Guglielmi said. He grabbed the sword and confronted the intruder — identified by police as Donald D. Rice, 49, a habitual offender who had just been released from jail.

Rice was crouching beneath a counter, police said. The student asked him what he was doing and threatened to call police.

"When he said that, the suspect lunged at him, kind of forced the kid against the wall, and he struck him with the sword," Guglielmi said.

‘Hanging on by a thread’
Rice's left hand was nearly severed — Guglielmi described it as "hanging on by a thread" — and he suffered a severe cut to the upper body. He died at the scene.



Yep, I'd go with the Katana as well.

In the story I read of this incident, the student was actually drunk when he used the sword so extensive training, while ideal, isn't necessary in my opinion.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: StillAlive on February 08, 2010, 01:14:09 AM
i don't know about katanas, too long, and if u r like me, waking up from sleep, all groggy, u could hurt yourself. i have a falcata, heavy blow, not too sharp, but can easily break bone. i think a gladius would be good, maybe paired with a knife?

Thinking about that, My tigerlight suggestion is even better, because if your waking up from sleep "a flashlight+ pepperspray" is the prefect item to carry in one hand while your other weapon is in the other...
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Cool Blue on February 08, 2010, 04:09:44 AM
If the Katana is too long this "ninja sword" might be better:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninjat%C5%8D (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninjat%C5%8D)
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: OldNinja on February 08, 2010, 11:28:38 AM
The debate about the length of the katana reminds me of a time when I was younger hanging out with some friends.  There were some training knives and swords laying about and my martial arts training partner picks up a knife and starts swinging it about.  This other guy who was into the SCA (medieval sword play) picks up a sword and challenges my friend.  My friend said it would be insane for him to take up the challenge due to the difference in blade length so the other guy, confident in his abilities, decides they will switch.  Upon doing so my friend proceeded to smack the crap out of the other guy.  After about 10 minutes of this.  The other guy asks if they can switch again.  My friend does so and immediately starts to walk down the hall as if he is going to take the fight outside.  The other guy (who now has the sword) follows but when they get to the end of the hall, my friend immediately turns on him, slashing away with the training knife.  The other guy reacts but cant do anything with the sword due to the confines of the hall.  I must of laughed for about an hour.  My friend always was a master tactician.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: phuttan on February 09, 2010, 11:14:43 PM
They carried two swords. One was shorter and one of it's uses was for fighting in tight spaces. The best weapon depends on situation. A claymore could cut a path through enemies in battle, but not in a narrow hallway. I like machetes. They can be used close and tight or in the open.

Pat
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: CyborgX on February 10, 2010, 07:14:33 AM
Can't beat a good ol' aluminum baseball bat. Doesn't require much training, inexpensive, and won't raise many questions with the police.

Advantages:
Cheap
Easy to use
Can be used multiple times
Not conspicuous in a police report

Disadvantages:
No guaranteed kills
Limited range
Not the most intimidating weapon
Won't do much to stop a bullet
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: OC Celtic Lass on February 10, 2010, 08:06:27 AM
Can't beat a good ol' aluminum baseball bat. Doesn't require much training, inexpensive, and won't raise many questions with the police.

Advantages:
Cheap
Easy to use
Can be used multiple times
Not conspicuous in a police report

Disadvantages:
No guaranteed kills
Limited range
Not the most intimidating weapon
Won't do much to stop a bullet

Metal bats are great! So is the short sword by the door used by the military on ships. It can get around great!  :)
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: infobomber on February 10, 2010, 09:44:11 AM
my machete and ka-bar is your katana and wasabi

:)
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Son_of_the_Republic on February 10, 2010, 11:03:21 AM
I also recommend people actually start conditioning their fists for impact,by knuckle push-ups,lightly punching walls wearing bag gloves and you can also punch bags or large bowls of small gravel.Gently at first.The gravel will also thicken the skin and help prevent against cuts.

If your caught short one day your hands might be all you have and you wanna be able to use em multiple times without injury.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Docwatmo on February 10, 2010, 12:54:52 PM
I have a 21 inch straight sward in my office at home.  Its long enough to do some damage and as an extension weapon it can be thrust and is razor sharp.  Even in close quarters, without being able to swing it, just thrusting it at someone in a tight hallway will probably keep them at bay or drive them back.  If they keep advancing they will get stabbed and or receive severe lacerations to the muscles and tendons controlling their hands and arms.    

It may not be ideal, but its still much better than just bare hands.  I do prefer a machete for swinging and every red blooded american boy knows how to swing a baseball bat without too much training.  :)

Anything that can keep them at bay till I or my wife reaches the 9mm is better than nothing.

It is above the door and can only be reached (or even seen in broad daylight) by someone as tall as I am. (6 ft 3). 
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: txjohnny on February 10, 2010, 11:39:04 PM
Forgive me if someone already mentioned this, but I have yet to make it through all of the posts for this thread.

Naysayers behold!


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32855934/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32855934/)

It all comes to down to what you know. If you have pepper spray but have never used it, you might just spray yourself in the face in a high stress situation. If you are trained in sword fighting, go for the sword. Don't discount training. A well trained person with an inadequate weapon is still going to be far more deadly that an untrained person with a superior weapon.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: ladieu on February 13, 2010, 09:18:11 PM
Wow this thread is long!   OK i read many posts but I admit to not reading them all so sorry if these are repeats!


I would recommend a focus on being physically fit, since you may end up in a situation where you can't access a weapon, or let's say you have conceal carry but are grabbed from behind before you are aware of the threat.   You would have stamina to run away or stamina to stand in fight if necessary, rather than being totally out of breath after a short struggle.  Also physical fitness is highly inline with the shows mantra as it is great if times are  tough, or even if they aren't!

Plus you have more energy to dedicate to all this great prepping stuff!  You could have the fighting skills of bruce lee but if you have let yourself go you won't be able to weather a physical situation if you don't end it quickly, plus I always say developing type 2 diabetes isn't a great survival tactic!

So along with that it would be nice to have knowledge of basic striking and grappling... take your pick of martial art.

Deterrents: Big dogs! I have had shady looking people literally cross the street when I used to walk my dogs in the city

If your just talking about having something on hand to defend the home then how about a decent cross bow or compound hunting bow?




Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: StillAlive on February 13, 2010, 09:50:31 PM
Ya its funny i didn't think of it as being helpful to this thread, but I own 5 akitas. My guns are kind of superfluous...

We live in the upstairs of a two story house, if we hear a noise, I clear the house with my glock in one hand, a tigerlight law enforcement grade led light/pepperspray and at least one 120lb dog :)
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: pht on February 14, 2010, 04:36:13 PM
For all the types interested in sharp pointy metal sticks other than katanas:

http://www.thearma.org/ (http://www.thearma.org/)

They're working on trying as best as they can to revive the pre-gunpowder martial arts of europe (modern fencing this is NOT).
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Klasco on February 16, 2010, 12:32:18 AM
Just some ideas, sorry if they are repeats:
Crossbow or Bow (don't miss!)
Combat knife (6+ inch blade)
Long blades (basically swords)
Medium Blades (thrust designed swords or machete)
Bats or other blunt impact weapons
Spear
Long or Short Axes

(just remember that you'll need to think about mobility and speed of recovery if you miss)

btw as crazy suggestion: What about a chainsaw if you have one near by and had time to start it. it does have a major scare factor? though stealth goes out the window maybe shock and awe?
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Orionblade on February 16, 2010, 02:40:23 AM
As far as sword length goes, it's not so much whether you can maneuver around your house with it - I could likely effectively defend my home with a polearm. The problem is clearing doorways. If the bugger is to your right as you pass through a door, and the door opens on the left, then he can pin the end of the weapon against the door and clock you a good one before you can react. If you can't pass through a door with your sword or baton largely parallel to your body, then you're setting yourself up for getting stuck. Even if you simply lose your balance, you'll be more likely to catch yourself in a door frame and be in a less-than-ideal position.

I have a variety of hard maple dowel rods around the house, and these are nice for blocking doors and windows if cut to the right length.

I also have a 3 pound drilling hammer, a 1911, a .38 special, and a katana, all within 6 feet of my bedside. The katana was a decorative piece of crap that I heat treated into a really nice weapon. It's only 2" longer than my doorways are wide, so the tiniest bit of angle on it keeps me from getting hung up. A proper katana is roughly 26-27" long. 30 inches or so and longer steps into daikatana territory, and beyond 34 or so inches is yet another class whose name escapse me.

In a home defense setting, you're mostly going to be poking/stabbing, so a rapier might be the best bet. Fast, flexible, and great for thrusting. If I put a 14" stick in my hands and give a good overhead swing, I'm hitting ceiling or wall, no matter where I am in my house.

Another idea - tactical flashlight with the little barbed cutouts on the end - used to be called glass breakers, but now they're used defensively, paired with a nice fighting knife. Ka bar (hoo-rah) or a good camillus fixed blade can't be beat.

Camillus makes a nice folder with a knot spike - standard coast guard academy issue - kicks ass, but not so great for fighting - slow to deploy.

Honestly, the ideal length, weight, and POU would likely be a heavy cleaver like a negrito bolo - heavy enough that it hits hard, short enough to give you a bit of swing, and pointy at the tip for stabbing. You can even sharpen the back side of the tip to give it a backsword's functionality, but a backhanded swing isn't nearly as effective as a forehand, though it's nice to have if you've got it.

I'd stay away from a hatchet since the leverage would be at a disadvantage, and you're less likely to be able to disable someone without literally bashing their brains in or dismembering them. At least with the drilling hammer (my primary forge tool) it's got a secondary use, and a smashed shoulder or jaw will put someone out of commission alot quicker than a missed slice of a hatchet that just cuts 'em a bit, and leaves you off balance.

If you've got any question about that, put a drilling hammer in your hand, choke up on it so your hand is against the bottom of the hammer head, then go punch a watermelon with the slightest of vigor and vengeance.

*poof*

Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Chance Sanders on February 27, 2010, 07:24:50 PM
What about Mister Bowie's answer to the short sword? I have a Shiva Ki fighting Bowie that has a 12 inch clay tempered blade that is razor sharp on both sides. If given time to decide I would choose that over my many other readily available edged weapons around the house. OK,throw in my tomahawk and call it a pair.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Orionblade on February 27, 2010, 09:34:21 PM
That'll work too, but I'd reccomend a lanyard, depending on your fighting style.

I hear taffeta is in style these days.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Klasco on February 28, 2010, 08:09:00 AM
As far as sword length goes, it's not so much whether you can maneuver around your house with it - I could likely effectively defend my home with a polearm. The problem is clearing doorways. If the bugger is to your right as you pass through a door, and the door opens on the left, then he can pin the end of the weapon against the door and clock you a good one before you can react. If you can't pass through a door with your sword or baton largely parallel to your body, then you're setting yourself up for getting stuck. Even if you simply lose your balance, you'll be more likely to catch yourself in a door frame and be in a less-than-ideal position.

If your clearing a doorway and somebody reaches toward the blade to push it against the door, turn the blade so it will cut his hand and just let go of the weapon, move out of the way to avoid the target's possible follow up strike. Then strike back with your hands or another weapon such as a knife. Or you could let go of the weapon when the targets pushes it towards the doorway and strike back instantly. What you say is true but there are ways to react back from such attacks if you think, you know "what if" somebody pins my blade against the doorway what could i do. For some reason people can be very afraid of dropping or letting go of their weapon even when you know its a bad idea to hold on to it. You can simply get a friend and make a mock up weapons of the ones your playing to use then try them out, see the issues and weakness and think about counters.

As for going out of your room you have to be careful as your enemy may have a gun, so you kinda need to be careful. Better to let them come to you and stab them or reverse above tactic and push their gun or hand towards the doorway and stab them. It could be better to just block or lock your door if they are just stealing and are armed with guns, call the cops or let them leave etc then risk somebody with a 12g at close range. You should be quick going through doorways. Think Surprise, Aggression, Speed.

Btw you can hold a spear with both hands and hold a knife. Or a knife in one hand and spear in the other (if that seems odd, just know that way back ppl used spears one handed while with the other a shield. you just need to practice one handed).

However i think short swords or large knives are better. A short sword requires thrust mainly and has a smaller arch of swing but quicker recovery. Though if you had a chainsaw i don't think they come near you and certainly not try to push it against a doorway all you have to do is keep it slightly tilted and not flat vertically though your main weapon there is fear.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Orionblade on February 28, 2010, 02:38:03 PM
There you go.

Saiga 12 with an underslung, rail-mounted chainsaw... I think DeWalt makes them...

Not a bad idea though.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: OLD DUDE on February 28, 2010, 04:23:16 PM
A can or two of RAID
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: inbox485 on May 17, 2010, 12:53:52 PM
I have an o'dashi that measures 44" OAL (12" handle, 32" blade). With even basic training (as long as it is good training), the only difference between tight places and open places is how you slice the guy up. Tight in, the techniques are based on fulcrums and leverage, in the open, techniques gravitate towards momentum and gravity. In your own home with a long sword even an average Joe with a gun stands a fair chance of getting filleted.

Second choice would be the taser with the 15' range. It is only second choice due to the rather discouraging plan b if you miss.

Pairing the two would be my choice if I couldn't have my 590 and XD45.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: outdoorman63 on May 17, 2010, 03:00:44 PM
a baseball bat, or anything i could grab if the situation demanded it
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: liftsboxes on May 18, 2010, 05:22:07 AM
(http://img22.imageshack.us/i/topsecretax1.jpg/)

?(http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/4020/topsecretax1.jpg)
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: kr66p6r13 on September 04, 2010, 09:43:42 PM
your mind is the absolute best weapon in any defense situation.  no gun makes no difference. the event is taking place on your home field. this alone should give you an advantage to exploit. add that with potential improvised weapons and/or basic knowledge of anatomy, the attacker should regret his decision. wrapping your mind around any specific weapon, may become an issue when it isn't available. figure out all your options and make sum if yours are limited. also consider that some situations may call for retreat
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Nadja*isk*en*isk*ie on September 06, 2010, 06:44:48 AM
My Surefire 6P Defender Flashlight in conjunction with either of my traditional spears could do some serious damage (temporarily blind them - then get stabby).

I also have a woomera that is usable with the spears however that would only help if I was trying to get an intruder to laugh themselves to death - I am that bad at using it.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Docwatmo on September 06, 2010, 08:12:45 AM
LOL, Nadja, Thats me with Nun-chuka, More likely to render myself unconscious than do any kind of damage to an intruder.  (And thats with the foam covered training pair I have). 
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Steelheart on September 06, 2010, 06:59:43 PM
I'm not a fan of leaving unsecured firearms around the house (I live alone so it's just a preference) so this is something I put some thought into a couple months back.  I've usually got a firearm nearby but there are times I get lazy so I wanted something that I could grab and use for a home invasion.  There hasn't been any issues with this locally but if the world heads downhill I'd rather have stuff in place....

Cold Steel had some older design machetes on sale/clearance recently so I decided to get some.  I ended up with their 18" Sax style as I wanted a functional tool for clearing brush (one's in the back of the Jeep for this) but I still wanted a usable point for stabbing attacks.  I store them in a couple of places in the house with the blade in the sheath but unsnapped.  Draw and attempt to close to range.  If the attackers/invaders don't want to get cut they can leave, quickly, through the door that they most likely just broke in through.  I've made no modifications (sharpening, reshaping the blade etc) to any of the machetes as I don't see the need and that could go against me in court. 

Not being able to use a firearm doesn't always mean that someone lives in a restrictive area (either inside our outside the US).  A person who was got a felony many years ago (some states have the first DWI as a felony for example) could still be unable to possess firearms.

I really like the fire extinguisher idea.  I've seen it done in moves but hadn't thought about it before for home/garage use.

FYI, in Minnesota at least nun-chucks are illegal outside of a martial arts training school.  As was said a few pages back (yes, I actually read the whole thread!) it's a shame that we need to think about the legalities of defending ourselves but that's a fact of our society.

Steelheart
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: mhallee on September 13, 2010, 10:06:40 AM
As a Martial Arts instructor, I have to say the best defense is to run.  Getting yourself out of the situation is the best defense.  If that's not possible, the best weapon is whatever you can get your hands on.  Lamp, chair, alarm clock whatever is within reach.  An be as silent as possible if you have to attack.  No battle cries to give away your surprise.  If you do choose to keep a simple weapon handy, keep one in every room.  Example a stick or baseball bat.  Learn how to use it and practice holding it as frequetly as possible.  Swing it up, down, sideways, poking, one handed, two handed, hit low, hit high and even with the butt end.  Just walk around the house twirling it.  Making it part of you and being familiar with it is the best way to utilize your weapon.  If you had a gun, you'd learn to shoot it and reload correct???  Be sure to train yourself with what you have available.  Again be comforatable with your weapon of choice, because a defense situation is never like you practice... it's real and realitiy is unpredictability.  Good Luck and stay safe.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: SNOWman on October 10, 2010, 05:41:20 AM
 i'd probably just hit the guy with my cast iron frying pan..... might work, might not.... but i'm not going down without a fight.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Bad Karma Ghost on November 24, 2010, 11:29:15 AM
A CO2 Fire Extinguisher could make your attacker pass out without getting too close, but it could also kill them.

Breathing CO2 concentrations of four to seven percent has been shown to produce headaches, hearing and visual disturbances, increased blood pressure, difficulty breathing, mental depression, and muscle tremors. As CO2 concentration increases, its effects become more dangerous and symptoms occur more quickly — exposure to seven to fifteen per cent carbon dioxide can produce drowsiness, dizziness, and unconsciousness within a few minutes. At 17 to 30 percent CO2, people have experienced loss of controlled activity, unconsciousness, coma, convulsions, and death within a minute. Several deaths have been attributed to exposure to concentrations greater than twenty percent.

So Maybe also keep some oxygen on hand and handcuffs or duct tape so you can restrain the attacker while they're unconscious and resuscitate them if they stop breathing.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Lanakia on November 30, 2010, 07:19:54 PM
1) Machete - if your a prepper you already have one, and the best weapon is the one you have. just as devistating as any sword.

2) pepper spray - effective against multiple assailents and will give you enough time to get away.

3) Louiville slugger - If you live in the US then you probably already own one and again see #1. Not much training required, just "hat, chest wipe, hat" or swing away.

Remember as alway - opinion
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: d0j0w0 on November 30, 2010, 07:27:57 PM
Sock full of Quarters?
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: inbox485 on December 01, 2010, 08:55:15 AM
Sock full of Quarters?

That would be a felony in a number of states. Especially the less gun friendly ones.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Foxfire7893 on December 15, 2010, 10:42:23 PM
Lots of good options. I might add to the list bug spray - no not repellent but something like wasp n hornet killer with a foaming jet stream. works just like pepper spray but a lot cheaper. But whatever you decide on, think it through on how you would use it. A simple staff properly learned can be a great tool. Some very good learning videos by the Shape Shifter on you-tube. Walk yourself and family through an event to see how practical your choices are. You may find that you need to make some adjustments.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: A Pirate on December 16, 2010, 10:16:15 AM
I think a baseball bat or a "Brit beater" (1 and a half metal poll with an asphalt ball at the end) can crush bones and is historically effective.

Also with the tazers and the like, I recommend that you hit yourself with it. This can give you a true idea of what your weapon can do, I have been tazed twice hit with O.C. gas and many other things, and it taught me what it can and can't do.

Has anyone thought of some "Death Wish" home defense? Like nail boards under the windows, bad day right there.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Orionblade on December 19, 2010, 01:05:56 AM
smoke generators

why touch the b*****ards that just broke into your house if you can just don a mask and smoke 'em out. If they can continue breathing until they reach the door, they likely won't be back, and if they can't, just drag 'em out unconscious and watch the paramedics haul them away for you.

smoke generators are pretty legal just about everywhere, particularly on/in private property. I'd maybe be concerned with an arson charge though, since they involve burning junk, but beyond that, the choking nasty smoke is amazing. Just don't go white phosphorus - that's deadly, dangerous, and illegal IIRC.

Really nasty junk.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: PistolWhipped on December 28, 2010, 07:52:00 PM
Lately I've become partial to short, stout pieces of wood.  Especially stuff like Hickory Tire Knockers and Wooden Potato Mashers.  Especially those tire checkers truckers carry.  The club has worked since the first monkey based another with a tree limb, and the tradition is still strong in the various night stick/billy club variations these days.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Hare of Caerbannog on December 28, 2010, 08:07:25 PM
Lately I've become partial to short, stout pieces of wood.  Especially stuff like Hickory Tire Knockers and Wooden Potato Mashers.  Especially those tire checkers truckers carry.  The club has worked since the first monkey based another with a tree limb, and the tradition is still strong in the various night stick/billy club variations these days.
Sorry I don't have the link, its on my other computer. But Death Valley Magazine did an article on stick/cane fighting not long ago that was very good.
I think most people would be shocked at how effective a chunk of hardwood is in the hands of someone who practices with it.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: PistolWhipped on December 28, 2010, 08:45:34 PM
Sorry I don't have the link, its on my other computer. But Death Valley Magazine did an article on stick/cane fighting not long ago that was very good.
I think most people would be shocked at how effective a chunk of hardwood is in the hands of someone who practices with it.

I also recall the bat as one of their favorite "old school" weapons.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: d0j0w0 on December 30, 2010, 10:03:31 PM
Speaking of "old school".  I know a kid that stabbed this other kid in the leg with a pencil.  You never have to reload a pencil...unless it is one of those fancy clicky type things.  Oh crap forget about it.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: USMCAllen on July 15, 2011, 12:17:27 PM
A tazer was mentioned, followed by "not effective against multiple attackers."

But, a stun gun is. The type that have a "prong" on each side and you close your fist in the middle give it like a shocking brass knuckles effect. Combined with good OC spray, or a baton, I would feel comfortable convincing someone my stuff isnt worth the effort.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: technicalanarchy on July 17, 2011, 11:50:39 AM
I kinda like the Katana idea. I got a matching Katana and Wakisashi off Ebay a few years ago and they are not replicas. They weren't that much either. I paid under $200.00 for the set and the Katana is super sharp and will one swipe some oak limbs and a 2 liter bottle full of water, I'd imagine it could do the five gallon bucket full of water but I've not been inclined to ruin a five gallon bucket yet. It's none the worse for the wear yet. The metal runs all the way through the handle (Tsuka) and I like that. It's super sharp a short choppy swing would still do some serious damage. If the intruder had on a leather jacket, sweater and long sleeve shirt maybe not, but then a .38 many not do much in that situation either.


But I can not imagine what the cops would say if they were called to a scene and a resident had successfully defended themselves against intruders with a Katana.

Ahhh
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32855934/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/t/cops-student-uses-sword-kill-intruder/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32855934/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/t/cops-student-uses-sword-kill-intruder/)

Of course a BA dog just simply cuts your chances of getting robbed or home invaded more than in half.

But if needed about anything can be a weapon. A guy killed a home invader with a space heater, killed him with a space heater. I'm pretty sure he wasn't trained with a space heater but he apparently had the mind set it takes to successfully defend yourself.

http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2009/jan/16/intruder-killed-with-space-heater/ (http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2009/jan/16/intruder-killed-with-space-heater/)


Mind set is the main weapon money cannot buy, even training cannot teach it to some.

If you have a 12 ga pump and the other guy has a spoon, and you don't have the proper mind set and he does (or you could be the one with the spoon, either way it's mindset), you might end up dying from a well placed spoon.

Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: surfivor on August 04, 2011, 06:47:35 AM
check out this stick twirling video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdpvKwPFO8Y

 There are some cools ways to twirl 2 sticks as well. It's neat things to play with.

Where I have studied, the sword and stick stuff they only teach to advanced and I don't go to class enough to get that far very easy, but some of these basics I bet you could figure out from some books or videos enough to do some things with ..


I like to play with sticks and stones while hiking. Learn to throw sticks stones with both hands and work on accuracy. I am a righty, so for me I have to work on throwing with my left hand. This is great exercise and serves a purpose and is good for the mind body connection work .. 

 
 I think somewhere in the bible it mentions that king David had some trained warriors who could throw a spear accurately with either hand.

 Keep in mind the spiritual aspect of fighting and look to psalm 18 and psalm 35 in the bible for inspiration

remember king david said against goliath:
“Thou comest to me with a sword, and with a spear, and with a shield: but I come to thee in the name of the Lord of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel” - those words give me shivers


as well as the dialog between Arjuna and Krishna in the bhagavad gita :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arjuna#Life

Arjuna was an ambidextrous master archer and played a central role in the conflict between the Pandavas and their adversaries, the sons of Dhritarashtra, known as the Kauravas. Arjuna was reluctant to take part in the battle because he knew he would be expected to potentially kill the enemy, which included many mind. Their dialogue about issues related to the war—courage, a warrior’s duty, the nature of human life and the soul, and the role of gods—forms the subject of the Bhagavad Gita, one of the key episodes in the epic Mah?bh?rata. He also played a key role in the killing of Karna, his arch-rival, in reality an unknown brother, on the side of the Kauravas.


 Interesting that yogananda, a 20th century guru who I feel greatly inspired by is supposed to have been Arjuna in a past life ..

Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Shadow Survivor on August 14, 2011, 08:44:55 PM
I am amused that the katana and variants keep coming up. I love katanas and enjoy using them - have a nice bring back from WWII sitting within arm's reach right now. HOWEVER, These take training, technique and space to use efficiently. Self defense is not about looking pretty with a lovely weapon. Stick with a machete and hatchet. You have a reason (camping) to always have these near. They should feel more natural in your hand than most "weapons" because these are tools made to be used hard. They are absolutely devastating when deployed for self defense. Just ask any of our spec ops guys who chopped their way through Viet Nam. OK, technicality - they used tomahawks instead of hatchets... Besides, when you get bored these are fun to throw (machete handles will break off but they make an incredible twang when they stick). I don't want to do that with my katana!
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: grisrob on September 04, 2011, 07:14:05 AM
My Brain
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Veritas on September 26, 2011, 10:12:03 PM
Aluminum T-ball baseball bat. Big enough and hard enough to take care of business, but small enough to be usable in confined home environment.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Shaunypoo on October 06, 2011, 06:40:00 AM
I started placing old golf clubs in closets and strategic places around the house.  I don't have guns or any swords.  I do have a machete in the garage, but would get many weird looks from the wife for bringing it upstairs.   I must make sure they are irons, the woods are way too long.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Docwatmo on October 06, 2011, 08:17:54 AM
yep, nothing says.  "Go unconscious" like a putter to the noggin LOL.     I used to have a couple of pool cues laying around, usually standing in a corner, they can be pretty effective. (The cue tip is small enough that enough force will penetrate the human body).
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Shaunypoo on October 06, 2011, 08:27:16 AM
Hell, my putter is the only club I paid good money for.  I could never hit an 8 iron, so that is my weapon of choice.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Hombre73 on November 07, 2011, 08:58:16 PM
 I'd be wary about buying a sword for home defense. In today's litigious society, even in a clear cut case of self-defense, there's a big chance you'll end up in court (if not criminal, then surely civil). Do you want risk everything hoping that 12 people not smart enough to get out of jury duty won't get confused when some shady lawyer paints you as a psychopathic samurai wanna-be.
 In my opinion if you can't have a firearm, then stick with something that isn't a weapon first (like a framing hammer, or a baseball bat).
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: inbox485 on November 08, 2011, 05:37:54 AM
I'd be wary about buying a sword for home defense. In today's litigious society, even in a clear cut case of self-defense, there's a big chance you'll end up in court (if not criminal, then surely civil). Do you want risk everything hoping that 12 people not smart enough to get out of jury duty won't get confused when some shady lawyer paints you as a psychopathic samurai wanna-be.
 In my opinion if you can't have a firearm, then stick with something that isn't a weapon first (like a framing hammer, or a baseball bat).

If you get any weapon for home defense you set your self up for problems both during an after a potential incident. However, if you get a weapon to learn how to use it, then you decide to have said weapon handy, the problems during and after the fact don't go away altogether, but they sure get a lot less risky. Personally, the few cases I've seen where somebody killed an intruder with a sword have gone nowhere except the newspaper, and no charges were filed. If you are playing to juror psychology, I'd take a sword over a bat or hammer any day. If you actually know how to use a sword indoors (good luck finding a place that will teach you that), well there is another reason.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: LdMorgan on November 08, 2011, 11:46:14 AM
Anyone wanting to learn how to use a sword (anything from fencing to a two-handed broadsword) may do so just by joining the Society for Creative Anachronism, Inc.

You can spend a few weeks hanging around with those jolly lads and learn the fine points of using every weapon invented before 1650, and several that weren't.

All for free, or near enough as makes no never-mind.

While you are at it, you can also learn just about every survival craft worth knowing, from spinning your own thread to paper-making, blacksmithing, leathercraft and a host of others.

The SCA is an international organization, so there is a local chapter near you if you can find pavement in less than a four-day ride.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: inbox485 on November 08, 2011, 11:56:37 AM
The problem isn't finding somebody who can teach you how to use a sword. The problem is finding somebody who knows the first thing about using one indoors. It isn't the same. The fundamental basics are worlds apart. They are diametrically opposed. Use indoor technique outdoors, and you have a reach disparity (and you get sliced to ribbons). Use outdoor technique indoors and you lodge your sword in a wall or the ceiling (and you get sliced to ribbons). Going out on a limb here, but I'm betting 99% of the SCA crowd is just like the Japanese sword crowd in that they only learn and teach outdoor technique. It would be like taking a precision rifle course and trying to apply that to home defense or taking a handgun course and trying to use that to take 500 yard precision shots. Both good things to learn and know, but not interchangeable skill sets.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: endurance on November 08, 2011, 12:01:44 PM
I still like the battery operated sawzall with 9" wood blade.  Sure, it's heavy, but I wouldn't want to get in a fight with a guy holding one.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Shaunypoo on November 08, 2011, 12:36:59 PM
What about a tube sock with a couple of D cell batteries?
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: inbox485 on November 08, 2011, 12:55:54 PM
Sawzall???  :o  :D  ;D >:D Yeah, I could go for that.

Weighted sock? Wouldn't want to be hit by one, but given even a mediocre motivation, I'd have a go against somebody who thought that would stop me.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: endurance on November 08, 2011, 01:07:13 PM
Sawzall???  :o  :D  ;D >:D Yeah, I could go for that.
The only problem I have with the idea is finding a sparring partner for training. ;)
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: LdMorgan on November 08, 2011, 02:33:04 PM
The problem isn't finding somebody who can teach you how to use a sword. The problem is finding somebody who knows the first thing about using one indoors. It isn't the same. The fundamental basics are worlds apart. They are diametrically opposed. Use indoor technique outdoors, and you have a reach disparity (and you get sliced to ribbons). Use outdoor technique indoors and you lodge your sword in a wall or the ceiling (and you get sliced to ribbons). Going out on a limb here, but I'm betting 99% of the SCA crowd is just like the Japanese sword crowd in that they only learn and teach outdoor technique....


Good points and reasonable assumptions, author, but the SCA takes things much further than just "technical" skills.

They put on armor and slug it out hand to hand--so they both teach and practice close combat. Out in the open and in close--singly and en mass.

I've seen battles where more than 3,000 fighters took the field in full armor.

The weenie-wire crowd (the fencers) can do their thing indoors or out, and in a pinch they can snatch an aerial off a car and put somebody to death with it.

The short-sword guys (one sword or two, with or without shield, with or without dagger) would be sudden death in a phone booth.

The spear-oligists can stop a crowd dead in it's tracks--as long as they don't get flanked. That means in a normal room or a hallway, they are golden. The best use of a spear, BTW, is to stab and slash, not to throw.

You'd have to see it to believe it.

Granted that nothing trumps a bullet--once it's been fired--but a good swordsman can kill the average pistol-packer before he can bring his weapon to bear. And they never run out of ammo.

The SCA, according to the CIA, has the largest standing army in the United States. And they are considered to be the one group most likely to survive a nuclear apocalypse. They have the tools, the skills, the information, and the organization necessary to do so.

Frankly, I'm glad they're on our side.


Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: mikem on November 08, 2011, 02:55:24 PM
Don't forget the matching tactical clothing:
(http://www.japanese-armor.com/images/products/b005.jpg)  ;D


After my guns, I opt for my big sharp combat knives or a heavy impact weapon (bat, crowbar, etc). When it comes to physical combat, I tend to K.I.S.S.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: LdMorgan on November 08, 2011, 03:32:51 PM
Some of them actually dress that way.

And the bagpipers are even gaudier more authentic.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: FreeLancer on November 08, 2011, 08:42:42 PM
The SCA, according to the CIA, has the largest standing army in the United States. And they are considered to be the one group most likely to survive a nuclear apocalypse. They have the tools, the skills, the information, and the organization necessary to do so.

Frankly, I'm glad they're on our side.

Hopefully they're on "our" side.  They were portrayed as the bad guys in the Dies the Fire series by SM Stirling.  Some crazy history professor got his SCA buddies together and started a feudalistic reign of terror after "The Change".
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: FreeLancer on November 08, 2011, 08:46:20 PM
Love the cover on the book.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/ed/Dies_the_fire.jpg)
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: LdMorgan on November 08, 2011, 09:08:24 PM
I'd bet, Daughters to Ducats, hands-down, that if there is a general collapse of civilization, some SCA Duke (somewhere!) will try to set up his own personal Empire.

And I'd also bet that, for a while, he'd be very successful at it.


(Note: To be a Duke in the SCA a person has to win the Crown in their Kingdom through a round-robin series of hand-to-hand combats with diverse weapons. And they have to do it twice. Dukes are usually the strongest, smartest, most skilled and most motivated people in the SCA. And not all of them are male.)
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: inbox485 on November 10, 2011, 11:26:50 PM
Good points and reasonable assumptions, author, but the SCA takes things much further than just "technical" skills.

They put on armor and slug it out hand to hand--so they both teach and practice close combat. Out in the open and in close--singly and en mass.

I've seen battles where more than 3,000 fighters took the field in full armor.

The weenie-wire crowd (the fencers) can do their thing indoors or out, and in a pinch they can snatch an aerial off a car and put somebody to death with it.

The short-sword guys (one sword or two, with or without shield, with or without dagger) would be sudden death in a phone booth.

The spear-oligists can stop a crowd dead in it's tracks--as long as they don't get flanked. That means in a normal room or a hallway, they are golden. The best use of a spear, BTW, is to stab and slash, not to throw.

You'd have to see it to believe it.

Granted that nothing trumps a bullet--once it's been fired--but a good swordsman can kill the average pistol-packer before he can bring his weapon to bear. And they never run out of ammo.

The SCA, according to the CIA, has the largest standing army in the United States. And they are considered to be the one group most likely to survive a nuclear apocalypse. They have the tools, the skills, the information, and the organization necessary to do so.

Frankly, I'm glad they're on our side.




I'm familiar with the SCA, but how often do they fight in residential confines? My understanding is that it wasn't common. Most of the places I've seen do live fights, but with one exception none of them included an environment such as a cramped hallway or a cluttered bedroom or living room. I'm not saying this to disparage the SCA in any way BTW. Just aaying that no matter how up close and personal you are getting going hand to hand, a field, dojo or fencing ring isn't the same as dealing with walls, ceilings, furniture, and random crap.

And darn right on the sword vs gun comment. I like guns because they are a lot easier to operate, they have a distance advantage and they are less up close and personal, but in my house with a sword, one guy with a gun would have long odds to get a shot off in my direction.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Albatross2.5 on November 11, 2011, 06:49:36 AM
Doesn't a tazer have to be registered in order for it to be activated.  I thought I saw it on the bottom of the site that sells them.  If you cant' own a gun then you probably can't own a tazer either. ( I'm not sure about how true the statement was) 
    I do have a german shepard as a warning system although she is sitll little more then a pup, she sounds tough.  I keep a can of pepper spray in the truck when traveling but for home I have a can of raid hornet spray by the front door (It sprays 20 foot and would blind a potential intruder),  I think long blades would be useless in close quarters, and prefer my marine  K-bar and a hawk. Ok, I do know that raid is for insects, but it will blind as well and probably create a lot of pain
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: LdMorgan on November 11, 2011, 07:40:32 AM
I'm familiar with the SCA, but how often do they fight in residential confines? My understanding is that it wasn't common. Most of the places I've seen do live fights, but with one exception none of them included an environment such as a cramped hallway or a cluttered bedroom or living room. I'm not saying this to disparage the SCA in any way BTW. Just aaying that no matter how up close and personal you are getting going hand to hand, a field, dojo or fencing ring isn't the same as dealing with walls, ceilings, furniture, and random crap.

And darn right on the sword vs gun comment. I like guns because they are a lot easier to operate, they have a distance advantage and they are less up close and personal, but in my house with a sword, one guy with a gun would have long odds to get a shot off in my direction.



Good point(s)--but they do practice bridge battles and taking gates--where the choke point is maybe 12 feet wide. Usually no walls except hay bales and no ceilings at all, but it's sorta similar.

The swishy-pokey boys (fencers) sometimes do tavern brawls where there are chairs and benches and tables to fight over, around, and under.

OF course, they're a pretty strange bunch. Sometimes they fight with a dead fish in the off-hand.

(You know: Swish-swish! Poke-poke...SMACK!!)
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: endurance on November 11, 2011, 08:57:25 AM
Doesn't a tazer have to be registered in order for it to be activated.  I thought I saw it on the bottom of the site that sells them.  If you cant' own a gun then you probably can't own a tazer either. ( I'm not sure about how true the statement was) 
The brand name Tazer has been a bit abused much like Kleenex.  If you want what the cops carry, a Tazer that shoots electrodes into an opponent at up to 20', then, yes, they have a registration process.  However, there are many stun guns that offer a similar jolt at point blank range (must be in contact proximity) that require no paperwork whatsoever.  Just depends on what you're looking for.  Personally, I don't like the stun guns because the human reflex is to move away from painful stimuli, thus, the instinct is to break contact, which stops the shock so the attack can resume.  I've been shocked by one as a demonstration to show a friend's girlfriend why she shouldn't bet her life on it.  I'll just say that while it hurt like hell, it wouldn't stop me from punching or kicking my way until someone dropped it.  A Tazer is a different story since the barbs are buried in your skin and you can't get away.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: yoshi on November 11, 2011, 09:58:25 AM
1. Unless you guys are willing to go through months and months of blood tests to make sure the person you stabbed doesn't have AIDS or another blood/fluid contracted disease, I would strongly suggest you stay away from edged weapons. Not to mention if you do actually end up cutting someone, you're going to have a hell of a messy clean-up to deal with.

2. When you mess with edged weapons you have to be just as aware of where the blade is as your "opponent" does so you don't cut yourself. Unless you are very skilled with edged weapons, in a defense situation you're probably going to be way too concerned with having to cut the person and subsequently forget that you have other means at your disposal (your other limbs, other weapons of opportunity in the room...) and you may end up in lots more trouble because you're hyper-focused on your weapon.

3. When you do cut someone, it gets bloody fast. Unless you take that person out on the first cut (highly unlikely) you're going to have a hell of a time wrestling around in sticky and disgusting blood while fighting.

4. Groups like SCA seem like fun, but I have some trouble seeing much legitimate or practical applications to actual self-defense. The whole idea of SCA is to get dressed up in armor to the point where you can beat each other up - FOR FUN - and purposely NOT hurt each other. If you train that way for a long period of time then it gets ingrained into your head that whenever you have a "fight" encounter you won't get hurt. I feel very sorry for the person that enters into a real self-defense situation with that mindset.

I keep thinking of the story of a police officer who died during a gun fight because whenever he was on the range he was trained to police his brass after he shot all of the bullets in his handgun. He did this during an actual gun battle because that's what he trained to do, and while policing his brass the assailant walked up to him and killed him.

Remember, you fight like you train. If you train in padded armor and whack each other with padded sticks, you're going to enter into a real life-or-death situation with that mindset as well.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: inbox485 on November 11, 2011, 09:58:26 PM


Good point(s)--but they do practice bridge battles and taking gates--where the choke point is maybe 12 feet wide. Usually no walls except hay bales and no ceilings at all, but it's sorta similar.

The swishy-pokey boys (fencers) sometimes do tavern brawls where there are chairs and benches and tables to fight over, around, and under.

OF course, they're a pretty strange bunch. Sometimes they fight with a dead fish in the off-hand.

(You know: Swish-swish! Poke-poke...SMACK!!)

That is kind of what I thought. It is nothing like dealing with a hallway or low ceiling. There are techniques for indoors. Applied properly, one guy with a gun breaking into a house has long odds of survival. Problem is finding somebody willing to teach them.

1. Unless you guys are willing to go through months and months of blood tests to make sure the person you stabbed doesn't have AIDS or another blood/fluid contracted disease, I would strongly suggest you stay away from edged weapons. Not to mention if you do actually end up cutting someone, you're going to have a hell of a messy clean-up to deal with.

2. When you mess with edged weapons you have to be just as aware of where the blade is as your "opponent" does so you don't cut yourself. Unless you are very skilled with edged weapons, in a defense situation you're probably going to be way too concerned with having to cut the person and subsequently forget that you have other means at your disposal (your other limbs, other weapons of opportunity in the room...) and you may end up in lots more trouble because you're hyper-focused on your weapon.

3. When you do cut someone, it gets bloody fast. Unless you take that person out on the first cut (highly unlikely) you're going to have a hell of a time wrestling around in sticky and disgusting blood while fighting.

4. Groups like SCA seem like fun, but I have some trouble seeing much legitimate or practical applications to actual self-defense. The whole idea of SCA is to get dressed up in armor to the point where you can beat each other up - FOR FUN - and purposely NOT hurt each other. If you train that way for a long period of time then it gets ingrained into your head that whenever you have a "fight" encounter you won't get hurt. I feel very sorry for the person that enters into a real self-defense situation with that mindset.

I keep thinking of the story of a police officer who died during a gun fight because whenever he was on the range he was trained to police his brass after he shot all of the bullets in his handgun. He did this during an actual gun battle because that's what he trained to do, and while policing his brass the assailant walked up to him and killed him.

Remember, you fight like you train. If you train in padded armor and whack each other with padded sticks, you're going to enter into a real life-or-death situation with that mindset as well.


Short of a gun, I could probably do reasonably well with a boken, but I'd much rather use a katana, live, and deal with blood borne pathogens latter than end up in a body bag that night. Also, I don't care if it is a pocket knife or a sword, if you learn how to use one, what ever happens will be short. So short, in fact that I've seen incidences that most witnesses don't even realize what was going on.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: inbox485 on November 11, 2011, 10:00:15 PM
The brand name Tazer has been a bit abused much like Kleenex.  If you want what the cops carry, a Tazer that shoots electrodes into an opponent at up to 20', then, yes, they have a registration process.  However, there are many stun guns that offer a similar jolt at point blank range (must be in contact proximity) that require no paperwork whatsoever.  Just depends on what you're looking for.  Personally, I don't like the stun guns because the human reflex is to move away from painful stimuli, thus, the instinct is to break contact, which stops the shock so the attack can resume.  I've been shocked by one as a demonstration to show a friend's girlfriend why she shouldn't bet her life on it.  I'll just say that while it hurt like hell, it wouldn't stop me from punching or kicking my way until someone dropped it.  A Tazer is a different story since the barbs are buried in your skin and you can't get away.

That is exactly how I feel about stun guns. It will stop some stupid jerk from dorking around with them, but for any legitimate assault it is little more than a talisman.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: RPZ on November 11, 2011, 10:57:28 PM
One should keep in mind that a well made katana or wakizashi can EASILY cost around 4 grand.  The pieces you can pick up online with the fancy imitation sheaths are absolutely useless as a weapon.  You might get through enough meat to get it stuck in a piece of bone, but it will almost surely be a one-stab wonder.  Replicas are not weapons.
The Cheness spring steel katanas are very affordable and argueably better than traditionally forged blades.

http://www.chenessinc.com/

Other options are bows, crossbows, spearguns, spears, large capacity "bear" pepper sprays, antique guns (this includes many very nice pre-1898 Mausers, and handguns),  and of course blackpowder guns.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: LdMorgan on November 11, 2011, 11:22:54 PM
It is very true that whatever your preferred form of mayhem, there really should be some reality in your training.

Back when I was still trying to get my white belt to stay tied, a Brown Belt in my first karate class (ranked right next to Black) got into a bar fight.

He snap-kicked his opponent in the chin three times with perfect control.

And, just like in practice, he pulled each kick exactly 1" short of contact.

The guy stepped in and punched his lights out.

Oops!

Then too, it really is the person that's dangerous--not the weapon.

A guy in my hometown got into an argument over a woman at a church dance. The three brothers that objected to him dating her (They weren't related to her--just outclassed.) told the guy they were going to take him outside and beat him to death.

He turned around and walked out the door with the three of them right behind him.

As he cleared the doorway he pulled out a little pen knife and turned around. The knife had a blade maybe 3/8" wide and 2-1/2" long.

He poked each one exactly once as they came at him through the doorway.

The first brother fell to the left, the second to the right, and the third straight down at the guy's feet.

All three were DOS, each one stabbed directly in the heart.

It was ruled justifiable homicide.

They were three bad dudes that just happened to go up against a dangerous man.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: inbox485 on November 12, 2011, 02:50:30 AM
It is very true that whatever your preferred form of mayhem, there really should be some reality in your training.

Back when I was still trying to get my white belt to stay tied, a Brown Belt in my first karate class (ranked right next to Black) got into a bar fight.

He snap-kicked his opponent in the chin three times with perfect control.

And, just like in practice, he pulled each kick exactly 1" short of contact.

The guy stepped in and punched his lights out.

Oops!

Then too, it really is the person that's dangerous--not the weapon.

A guy in my hometown got into an argument over a woman at a church dance. The three brothers that objected to him dating her (They weren't related to her--just outclassed.) told the guy they were going to take him outside and beat him to death.

He turned around and walked out the door with the three of them right behind him.

As he cleared the doorway he pulled out a little pen knife and turned around. The knife had a blade maybe 3/8" wide and 2-1/2" long.

He poked each one exactly once as they came at him through the doorway.

The first brother fell to the left, the second to the right, and the third straight down at the guy's feet.

All three were DOS, each one stabbed directly in the heart.

It was ruled justifiable homicide.

They were three bad dudes that just happened to go up against a dangerous man.

I don't know how many of you caught the recent show with the guy from Argentina, but I felt like I heard myself talking when I was listening to him talk about knives. I know some people poo poo using them defensively, but then again, I and several other people I know are alive today because they knew how to use a knife, had a knife and either made it clear they would use it or they actually did use it. Then again, in my background, I spent years learning how to disarm, retain, and grapple with handguns before learning how to shoot one outside of a couple yards.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: inbox485 on November 12, 2011, 03:06:13 AM
The Cheness spring steel katanas are very affordable and argueably better than traditionally forged blades.

http://www.chenessinc.com/

Other options are bows, crossbows, spearguns, spears, large capacity "bear" pepper sprays, antique guns (this includes many very nice pre-1898 Mausers, and handguns),  and of course blackpowder guns.

Thanks for the link. I bought a folded carbon steel o-katana years ago in the $300 range. It serves well, but if I was shopping today, the bujinkan katana would be my absolute first choice in indoor blades. I looked hard for one like that at the time, and it just didn't exist. I might have to get that some day...

http://www.chenessinc.com/9260oniyuri.htm
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: FreeLancer on November 12, 2011, 05:37:27 AM
What's the pros and cons of a short spear for thrusting, rather than throwing, like the 36" Assegai from Cold Steel?  Seems like it would be easier for mere mortals to use effectively in tight quarters compared to a sword, while still providing excellent reach and wounding potential. 
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: soupbone on November 12, 2011, 06:55:46 AM

OF course, they're a pretty strange bunch. Sometimes they fight with a dead fish in the off-hand.

(You know: Swish-swish! Poke-poke...SMACK!!)

Ahem:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9SSOWORzw4

soup
 ;D
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: notsofast on November 12, 2011, 08:35:18 AM
I don't know if anyone has mentioned it but, there's something called a "GLEF", I believe. It's a light weapon, basically a multicolored strobe light. It "overloads" the brain, induces vomitting and can induce a temporary paralysis. They can be built fairly cheaply, if you already have stuff lying around, like i'm sure most of us do. Lol. I believe i've heard you can build one for about $30. Non leathal, no mess, no license or permit. I'm gonna try to build one using a rechargeable spotlight to carry in the van... One day.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Greysen on November 12, 2011, 12:04:35 PM
I am a big fan of bladed weapons as long as you've worked with them enough to know to keep your own body out of the cutting path.   The value of them goes up pretty much exponentially with training, but are still pretty dangerous with little training.  Just ask any cop who's had to get a kitchen knife out of a drunks hand.

As far as swords inside, there really isn't that much different than using them outside with the exception of room to above and to the sides to use them. While this limits you, it also severely limits your opponents ability to get out of the way of anything you throw at them.  You either need to use lower weapon postures, or a smaller weapon.  If you opponent gets in really close, you choke up on the weapon.  Either way, as long as you have control of the handle the odds are seriously in your favor.

Short spears are also particularly dangerous, you have a serious leverage and control advantage and really who expects to get speared in this day and age.  If I recall correctly the Zulus used them to decimate their political opponents at a rally (They were armed with AK's and couldn't break the weapons to bear effectively in that environment.)

That aside, you're probably just better off beating feet in today's environment unless someone really has it in for you.  If things really go downhill then..   Get better armament.~
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: LdMorgan on November 12, 2011, 10:28:16 PM
Ahem:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9SSOWORzw4

soup
 ;D

I squirdid millg oud bi nodes.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: LdMorgan on November 12, 2011, 11:22:21 PM
What's the pros and cons of a short spear for thrusting, rather than throwing, like the 36" Assegai from Cold Steel?  Seems like it would be easier for mere mortals to use effectively in tight quarters compared to a sword, while still providing excellent reach and wounding potential.

The Assegai (or Ixwa) is named after the sucking sound it makes when you pull it out of a man's belly.

In close quarters, I would be hard pressed to imagine a more deadly weapon.

The blade is so wide that any belly wound is almost always instantly incapacitating and quickly fatal.

The knobkerrie pommel of the traditional Zulu weapon allows excellent control even when the handle is slick with blood. It's also a striking surface.

There is a formal art to the use of the Assegai that is remarkably subtle and graceful--even as it is being employed with brutal efficiency.

While the heart thrust is the "sweet stroke", the tip will slit throats, the edge of the blade will lop off hands and arms--(and heads)--slash tendons at the back of the knee and at the ankle, and cut those pesky femoral arteries on the inside of the thigh with remarkable efficacy.

The pommel is great for smashing faces, shoulder joints, collarbones, and skulls, and is readily employed as a sedative when taking prisoners.

Facing a skilled opponent armed with an Assegai, I would want nothing less than full plate armor and a pair of spiked maces.

And fourteen friends.

And high ground.

And an air strike inbound.

The actual problem with a Assegai is that it is so efficient that even an untrained person can use one effectively, and they are damnably hard to defend against.

Even when you have a shield.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: FreeLancer on November 13, 2011, 02:03:34 AM
The actual problem with a Assegai is that it is so efficient that even an untrained person can use one effectively, and they are damnably hard to defend against.

Sweet!!  With that endorsement, maybe I'll get a couple spares and update the shaft to a knobkerrie pommel.  I'm a sucker for all those crazy Cold Steel weapons, but that Assegai freaks me the hell out.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: metatron on November 13, 2011, 04:55:04 AM
A paintball gun with rubber balls or the rubber coated steel balls are quite painful and with the rate of a paintball gun will drive people off. Not sure if you can get flash grenades where you are but they work a treat.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: DocRokRx on November 14, 2011, 03:17:09 AM
Sweet!!  With that endorsement, maybe I'll get a couple spares and update the shaft to a knobkerrie pommel.  I'm a sucker for all those crazy Cold Steel weapons, but that Assegai freaks me the hell out.

thank God I'm good at controlling my urges to buy stuff, or I would own half their catalogue and a mountain of debt lol
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: FrugalFannie on November 22, 2011, 07:41:20 AM
My guess is if you are prohibited from owning a gun you may be prohibited from owning things like swords and tasers and possibly even pepper spray. So with that in mind I would suggest anything that would seem commonplace and not need "special permission" to own.

Heavy flashlight (like the long Mag Lites) - even a small one can be pocket carried and they are useful if the power goes out
baseball bats, hockey sticks, walking stick or even just a thick branch cut to size that costs you nothing
Kitchen knives
above all get some defensive training so your weapon doesn't get taken from your hands and used against you.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Optix on November 24, 2011, 12:00:51 AM
I got a rusty pitchfork..
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: M.U.C.T on January 21, 2012, 09:33:13 AM
a tomahawk is a great close quarters weapon for home defense another good one is a smaller machete like 16" don't want anything to long...True story Im a big martial arts enthusiast and sword practitioner I used to live in Bridgeport Ct which is a REAL bad neighborhood anyway I had some random guy walk into my house and up my stirs i came at him with one of my Katana and as I was coming down the stairs the damn thing hit the ceiling and got stuck luckily the screaming half naked white guy with a sword who lives in the projects was enough of a deterrent to send the guy running like hell
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Docwatmo on January 21, 2012, 11:54:39 AM
luckily the screaming half naked white guy with a sword who lives in the projects was enough of a deterrent to send the guy running like hell

THAT is one of the greatest things I've read in a long time.   LOL


How about you swing by the intro thread and introduce yourself.  With posts like this to start off with, you have got to have some great experiences to share.  ;D

http://thesurvivalpodcast.com/forum/index.php?topic=89.4770






Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: jim124816 on January 21, 2012, 12:20:32 PM
I think the bat or baton would be good.  I am not too sweet on the knife because if the intruder also had a knife I would then find myself in a knife fight.  My understanding is that even those with some knife fighting training rarely come from a knife fight unscathed.  Of course this is really just academic for me, if I ever have an intruder, I will undoubtedly have a firearm. 

Then again, you sword guys may have the right idea.  A knife fight where your knife has 2 to 3 feet over the other guys knife makes for pretty good odds.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Cedar on January 21, 2012, 02:05:37 PM
When I was having issues with my ex (restraining orders don't work) and didn't have a gun at the time, I had a cheap can of hairspray at the side of my bed along with a cigarette lighter. I also had a baseball bat and a 4 tined pitchfork.

Cedar
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: LdMorgan on January 21, 2012, 06:09:13 PM
Well...after 380 posts in this thread, I think there's a good chance that our newer readers haven't read all the messages from start to finish---so I'm going to re-cap a post I made here quite a while ago.

A superb weapon for self-defense (in your house or on the street) is an ordinary child's squirt gun, loaded with plain household ammonia.

The range is far better than mace. The stream won't blow back in your face the way a cloud of spray may. It is very accurate, even at maximum range--which may be 15 yards or so.

It fires fast, you get a lot of shots, it's quiet, and doesn't have a muzzleflash to blind you at night.

And it's so easy to use a child can do it. Your child, if needs be.

It is not a firearm, so you can't be charged for failing to register it, or for using it within 250 feet of a dwelling (to wit: inside your house!). It also does not presume the use of deadly force the way a firearm does.

It takes exactly one (1) shot to the face to put any human on earth flat on the ground, crying for his mommie.

It will also stop a pack of dogs dead in their tracks.

A little ammonia will definitely do the job.

It's also cheap and easy to practice with. Just load it with water and start shooting.

One other thing: If it has that orange tip on it that is so tptally PC these days you can point it at an intruder and warn them you have a gun(!), and he will see what is obviously a toy gun and decide you are bluffing.

Even if they have a real gun themselves, they may laugh in your face and walk right up to you--giving you a shot that can't miss. (Testosterone would practically demand it.)

Go for the pukey fluorescent-green transparent squirt guns. They look really harmless.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Roundabouts on January 21, 2012, 09:39:40 PM
 It's not the size of the dog in the fight
 it's the size of the fight in the dog. 

Things I have thought about before we had guns.  Hubby worked grave yard or swing shift so I was home alone with the kids a lot.  Defense would depend on the point of entry where the kids were time of day or night.  Are the neighbors home?  I use to think about this a lot when we lived in the city.

extra large brass candle stick
escaping out a door or bedroom window Always sleep with shoes by my bed (at one time my high heals)
hiding in the attic false wall
hair spray
phone
good size rocks
fry pan
kitchen knife
laundry mat change in a sock by my bed
bright flash light
loud can air horn what ever they are called
wall mirror
vase  glass picture frame (basically any thing I could throw)
my purse ( alway carried a pad lock or something in it and it has a long handle)
blanket or towel  throw over them so I could get out or jump from behind and choke them
crank up the stereo as loud as it would go
throw light bulbs or kids legos / toys on the floor
wooden chair
walking stick
hanger
metal fingernail file

Never said any of these were good ideas just what I would think about as I was falling asleep.
 

Things that have been used
window air conditioner
fireplace poker
pan hot grease

Distance escape always first on my list before guns and even now that we have them.  I would rather not be around should an intruder show up inside.  No option have to fight or defend will do what I have to.  I wont hold back.  There is a lot of fight in this dog.  ( past experience it takes 3-4 grown men to pull me off someone but that's another story)




Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Roundabouts on January 21, 2012, 10:02:59 PM
Just talked to hubby and he said don't forget the dogs and their bark.  Yes dog can be good at alerting to trouble.  I have learned their someone is here bark from there is a animal in my yard bark.    Also each situation or scenario my require a different action. 

I did have to defend my dog against a coyote.  Orko was a small dog (yes from he-man cartoon) When I got out of the shower I heard a weird dog fight sound in the back yard.  I ran out and saw my dog being carried off.  I dropped my towel and grabbed a pot and metal spoon off the counter.  Took off out the door towards them  banging the spoon against the pot holding it up above my head and yelling as loud as I could.  We didn't have guns at that time.   It worked.  That was not a human intruder but an intruder none the less.  Even if we had had a gun I would not have had the time to grab it before my dog would have been killed.   Yes we do laugh about that still but at the time it scared the crap out of me and was not funny. 
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: M.U.C.T on January 21, 2012, 10:38:21 PM
THAT is one of the greatest things I've read in a long time.   LOL


How about you swing by the intro thread and introduce yourself.  With posts like this to start off with, you have got to have some great experiences to share.  ;D

http://thesurvivalpodcast.com/forum/index.php?topic=89.4770
sure see you there
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Solaris on August 19, 2012, 03:17:31 AM
I came across this conversation because I have had a few intruder scares and I had no conventional weapon on hand.  Fortunatly they were only scares and no conflict took place. 

The first of these scares went like this:
Someone was at the front door of my apartment trying to get in.  My wife and I got up in a hurry to defend our home.  between the two of us we came as prepared as possible to defend our children.  From our bedroom door you could almost see the entry way and between that 15 feet of distance was our dinning room table.  The door sounded like it was opening so I grabbed the closest projectile in arms reach.  The projectile turned out to be a gala apple.  What was flashing through my mind as I pictured an intruder rounding the corner by the door was bean this M-F'er in the face and charge lower the shoulder and drive his sorry ass into the wall and then pummel him to a bloody pulp.  Now then if that didn't work my wonderful wife was following with a cutco knife.  I am glad to know she had my back because we had no time, this person was coming in and they were not being sneaky about it they were just coming with no reluctance...  Luckily this person was just a drunk idiot and his girlfriend.   They had come to the wrong apartment and couldnt figure out why there key wasn't working.  The couple had been arguing on the way back from a bar came across a bunch of guys in the parking lot and began arguing with them. The guy got his ass kicked and was now standing on my porch bleeding all over the place literally.  This accounts for why they were so confused that 1) there key didn't work and 2) why the FK is this a$$hole (me) poking my head out of THIER apartment door?

The Second Scare came this evening.
A flashlight shone across our bedroom window from our backyard.  I again have no weapon so I quietly pick up a projectile (running shoe) and a hand to hand weapon (belt with heavy buckle).  Again fully prepared right? I am prepared at every one of my corners to check and clear with a combo of distraction.  Hurl the projectile at the intruders face.  Then follow with a buckle blow and the repeatedly beat the intruder until my wife arrives with more armaments.  Fortunately again there was no conflict.  I am not sure why my window was flashed with a light but it drove me to this thread to find a better weapon.

I know these are not ideal weapons or situations.  But in these experiences I find that a gun will be to slow.  I cant keep it loaded under my pillow I have kids.  It will never be ready fast enough for me to defend myself.  I found this thread because I was thinking Katana and like many post previous I agree is to long for indoors.  I was searching for the 3 blade sets with the Katana, Wakizashi, Tanto as i feel like the smaller two will be exactly what I would need.  After reading almost every post I think I am going to upgrade my 4D battery MAG light to the 6D and get a Katana, Wakizashi, Tanto.  If I feel threatened go for the Wakizashi/MAG light combo and give my wife the Tanto.  If I have to I can fling the sheath at the intruder, blind with the light, and use both as a weapon.  The power of confusion and follow up combinations before the intruder can figure out WTF is happening seems like the best defense.

I do believe that anything is a weapon.  If it is readily available it will save your life.  Guns are not practical if you have to keep them locked up.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: SheepdogSurvival on August 19, 2012, 02:28:54 PM
+1 for an attack dog(s)

For stuff you can wield, I vote for the primary weapon to be a TOMAHAWK in your weapon(strong hand) and a K-BAR in your reaction hand.

The Tomahawk is a great weapon for a number of reasons.
-You use the same or similar motions when working with a hammer or axe so in theory you will have thousands of practice repetitions to hone your skill.
-Also when people are in a body alarm response mode in knife attacks they have a tendency instinctively to stab in downward (or chopping) motion despite it being less effective, which is obviously the more effective and proffered method of employing a tomahawk.
-If you have the element of surprise it is much easier in my estimation to achieve instant and silent incapacitation with a tomahawk in tight quarters by to striking the base of the skull/spine than other weapons.
-In a pinch a tomahawk maybe thrown effectively.

I chose the KBar as a secondary because if you are unfortunate and do not have the element of surprise and need to face off with an enemy combatant (etc.. you put your definition here, basically whoever the scumbag is who you're about to dispatch) then a kbar creates an increased effective range without being too cumbersome in tight spaces. It's ~6-7" blade is also plenty long to penetrate under the rib cage into the heart of said scumbag. The Kbar is also a pretty good stand alone weapon if something happened to your tomahawk.

If your where outside your home I think an decommissioned mosin nagant or similar rifle with an attached bayonet would become the primary, or a spear.

my 2cents.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: UDI-Joshua on August 20, 2012, 02:47:58 PM
I realize this is an old post, but it’s a good one, just thought I would add my $.02.

Anyway, I have never really tried to rely on just one “go to” weapon for home defense even though I do have guns in my home. I personally have weapons throughout my house. If I were to focus on one weapon specifically as my weapon of choice then I may be too focused on getting to that weapon while under duress. Tachypsychia (adrenaline dump) has very strange effects on us psychologically as well as physiologically and we don’t always react the way we thought we would.

I like katanas, I have a really nice Paul Chen katana that I have trained with and used for cutting practice, it goes through a tatami mat with a dowel in the center of it like butter. But what if POS breaks in while I’m in the bathroom? Do I try to run to my katana? Or do I grab what I have available right there?

If I mentally chose a katana as my home defense weapon, then when faced with stressful situation my mind is going to start racing and wondering where my katana is and how do I get to it, instead of seeing the big heavy thing we have for holding extra toilet paper. If I get the drop on him and start whacking him with that I have a much better chance of success than if I start running to get my katana.

And don’t forget the power of keys, pens, pencils, rolled up magazines, credit cards, kitchen knives, any heavy object, bottles, broken broom handles, etc. Your house is filled with weapons, just grab the nearest one and start making stuff happen.

Of course like everyone else, I have stuff ready for deployment as well. I have pepper spray velcroed to our front door jam at eye level with the nozzle facing the door just in case POS tries pushing his way in. We can start spraying as we are pulling it off the wall. I have knives, sticks, etc around the house. I have the big 6D cell Mag Light near my bed, hold it on your shoulder with the light facing outward, couple quick flashes to disorient and then smack him like Babe Ruth. Quick note about Flashlights, never turn it on to look around the house, you will be telling him you are coming and where you are. Your eyes should already be accustomed to the dark, use that to your advantage. Go in silent and then surprise him with a couple quick flashes and then stars.

Anyway, sorry so long, it’s a good discussion and a good topic.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: JohnDoel on November 11, 2012, 02:56:05 AM
I would use bear spray... mainly because I used it on a bear this summer and it dropped like a load of bricks and if it'll stop a bear at 15 or so feet away while its charging within a second of the stream hitting it I think I'll use it to stop a human attacker though Canadian laws make it something I would never use for EDC.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: osubuckeye4 on November 12, 2012, 03:54:23 PM
The true best home defense is not making your home a target.

If I had a dime for how many times my idiot neighbors and other friends of mine posted pictures and status updates from trips at remote locations (basically alerting any robber that their house was open and primed for robbing), I'd be a millionare.


Now, if you happen to be extremely unlucky and a robber legtiimately picks your home at random?

I'd recommend bear spray/pepper spray/mace. Why? Because they are easy to carry or place at high traffic areas (areas you are likely to be if an invader breaks into your home), and they are also things that your houseguests/kids can't kill themselves with.


As far as things like katana blades? I've always been of the believe that there is a much higher chance that one of your drunk buddies is going to ask to see/play with it and do a bunch of damage to your furniture than there is that you are actually going to slice a robber in half in legitimate self defense. That's just my opinon though and if someone wants to have a katana blade, more power to them.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: blademan on November 20, 2012, 12:42:52 AM
I have only browsed this thread briefly due to its lenght. I am glad it was started. This a a topic near and dear to my heart, and one I have given much though to.
   Depending on your house, I have to give the sword idea a pretty big nod. It should be chosen to your skill level and the ergonomics of the place you plan to use it. If you have the skill, nunchucks are a good choice too. The simple answer is to look at the history before guns, and all of those weapons are your answer, they were all used for home defense in some fashion or another.
  Here is what I feel is a good suggestion for this situation. I have addressed this issue to some degree in the airgun board under "are aiguns any good for self defense?"
That generated a pretty interesting discussion so if you are interested, go read that.
   
 1. The correct high power large caliber air rifle (no air pistols for lethal level defense, while they re theoretically lethal, its just not there when it comes to power.)
    Is a good tool if you learn the weapon and train with it in the same way you would with a real gun. If you doubt the power of this because I used the word air before the worfd rifle. Go to the thread I mentioned above and look for my post in which I posted you tube links and watch them. 
     Even though this is the option I will eventually take out of necessity, I agree that it suck when compared to a real gun. But keep this in mind, high power air rifles were used in feudal japan as sniper rifles because they were quieter, more powerful and reliable than the muskets of that era, and produced no smoke. This is well documented history of people dying at the end of air rifles.
    There are drawbacks to this, one is ergonomics, most of the high power large caliber guns are single shot. This is huge and not so huge a drawback. With the proper training and adaptation, such as tactical pellet holders, you could increase your reload time. Not anywhere near what you have with magazine fed or pump actions, probably faster than a break barrel shotgun or rifle.
There is a six shot rotary action .357 air rifle. It can take large hogs and deer, so two legged rats could be dealt with. It is bolt action, so it a little slow, but faster than a single shot.
  There is also a 308 rifle made in England that is a repeater, and is on the low end of what I would consider for the use and would probably opt for the more powerful single shot.
   The other drawback is that air rifles while they are very reliable, are complex and can be clumsy if one doesn't train and maintain them. The rifles I am suggesting are pcp or precharged pneumatic. This means they have a high pressure resivoir on them that has to be filled by a scuba tank or hand pump or high pressure compressor (3000 psi or more) this means that if they are not filled when you need them, you have a very ineffective club, they are generally less sturdy than real rifles. They get a respectable number of shots off a fill but this essientially means you have to worry about two different types of reloads, so theu are problematic at best for extended engagements. The .357 rifle is very big, like on the scale of a full size hunting rifle, so ergonomic and tactical issues abound. It also uses batteries and has a electronic control mechanism which is additional points of failure and complexity, but with training, you can overcome this. The 308 also has a battery for the valve and action. The single shots are carbines and pretty simple with no batteries or other unusual interface issues. These range from .357 and 9 mm to .50 cal similar to a .50ae and have tremendous muzzle energy for a pneumatic. They have taken large game in africa and other places such as hartbeest and american bison. With single aimed shots.
   So as far as air rifles, selection and training is about twice as important as it is for real guns anfd may not be for everyone once you take price into account. The cheapest new rifle in this power range is 500 or more just for the rifle, not to mention the ammo, accessories and the filling equipment. Its in the range of at least a grand for a new rifle with warranty and the pump and tank to keep it pressurized. It goes up from there. So like I said, it can be a very viable option from a lethality perspecrive, but its not without its flaws and not for everone.
   No for non ballistic options.
   First, taking and training in a martial art like escrima is a very good way to go. Just two sticks and two hands. It is a close up option, but effective.
  Cold steel makes some pretty deadly looking war clubs which would at the very least help a bad guy decide leave the premises.
 Another good way to go would be to learn to use a kitchen knife offensively and defensively. I accidentally slashed my own palm with a 9" mercer chef's knife in an incautious moment at work one day and have an extreme respect for a sharp kitchen blade. 7 sutures and a inscision 2" long and 1.5" deep into the meaty part of my hand. Didn't hurt a lot, but it got my attention. I think stabbing with it would get different pain results though.
   I prefer a slightly smaller blade, but it has intimidation value on its side.
 
 Pepper spray has advantages and disadvantages because it can easily blow back or diffuse in the air and effect you as well. Taser has a cicvilian model that the size of a small flashlight, in fact it has a light in it if I remember correctly. The registration process can be problematic for law abidinf citizens with a record, but can be worked around. (I.e. Your wife who has no record owns it and you happen to use it IN YOUR HOME to stop an attacker)
 
   I wouldn't suggest a crossbow as a primary choice due to its difficulty of use in a stressful situation. It isn't ruled out, but its down on the list.
     This is a topic I'm pretty keen on because unless I find myself ina WROL situation, a firearm is not useable for me and since that is the case, even in a WROL situation, I probably wouldn't have one or access to one at the beginning of such a situation. I have put a lot of thought into it and these are some of the results of that. I'm saving up for the .357 air rifle but may end up going with shorter .45 or .50 carbine models because of the length and price of the .357
   Its not a stand alone solution, but then again, neither is a real gun, although, a real one is 100% better.
     Good advice for someone who can't or doesn't have a gun, is to harden you dwelling as much as possible to make it as hard as possible for someone to quickly gain undectected entry to your home.  This will stop most home invasions in and of itself and will give you time to bring weapons to bear and to request assistance. Just my voluminous thooughts on the matter.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Freebirde on November 20, 2012, 09:52:35 AM
I finally made it through the 14 pages, so far, and seen a few gaps.
I don't have a gun, family issues, but I'm not short on defense item or the reason to have them.    I cook, garden, and occasional landscape, so there are a lot sharp and pointy thing around.   I have bad knees so plenty of walking sticks or staffs around the house.   I do some repair work, so I keep hammers, nuts, bolts, chains, and such around.
As others said, it's mostly attitude, willingness, and doing the unexpected.   I was doing paperwork at the end of a long day on a pest control route.    I thought I heard someone trying to get in the back door.    I picked up the first thing that came to hand, a bunch of D batteries.    How would you like to give someone a good dose of adrenalin, a hand full a D batteries, and let them throw them at you.
If you are expecting trouble, keep a pot of boiling water on the stove.   "The air was dry." or "I was about to cook something".
As to the ammonia water gun, I made one and gave it to a female co worker back in 1976.    Vinegar work also.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: blademan on November 20, 2012, 10:52:20 AM
Amonia water guns,
   I have no argument with the efficacy of it. Or of vinegar, or as my security instructor told me when I had to work a post that forbid pepper spray, batons and guns and knives. "Carry one of those little plastic lemons or limes they sell filled with juice. Keep it in a pocket by itself so you don't have to dig for it or get it tangled in whatever else you have in there. If you have to use it and are questioned as to why you have it, say you drink tea often and you carry it because you like lemon or lime in it. (You could just as plausibly say its for water.) I was really impressed with this suggestion to the point that I used it. Never had to dose anyone but I tested it my rubbing a little in my eye and was convinced that someone not expecting it would have a dramatic attutude change if hit with it. Works super well in the home from a legal standpoint even in the most restrictive jurisdictions.
   The problem with an amonia water gun is leakage. That's probably the most common problem, cheap water guns almost always leak and the amonia is pretty caustic and could cause leaks or make them worse. Another just as likely problem is that water guns are notoriously delicate and unrelable. Not something you want to use for self defense. You could use a bottle of perfume with similar results and disadvantages.
And from a legal standpoint, even if the amonia ends the conflict, there are plenty of places in the us where someone could find themselves in touble or being decided against in a civil case for using such a option. It is better to judged by 12 than carried by six or charged by police than be charged by a hospital, but these are things to consider. With amonia, I would treat it the same way as bleach from a safety dstand point. Its deffinitely effective and creative, but given the disadvantages of it, something like an ASP key defender, or even your crappy dollar store pepper spray, or the bulb or lemon juice is a better option as a chemical deterrent.
   Again the amonia idea seems cool and I like it until I think much about it. Someone suggested it in the dog defense topic too and I forgot to respond to it there but when I saw it here, I had to say something so someone doesn't feel safe carrying this for defense. Its not the worst idea I have heard and you could do certain things to make it better, but why go to the trouble unless its the only thing available? I would rather go hand to hand than try this. I am a big guy who knows how to handle myself in a fight and can take a punch, but I HATE going hand to hand with people. This was instilled in me by a recon Marine who could fight like no bodies business and specialized in multiple martial arts in addition to being a MARINE. He told me only to engage when there is no other choice and to do everything including running to avoid it. He also taught me what to do if that wasn't possible and how to judge that. He would have liked the amonia water gun idea too.
    This a a cool thread. Keep the suggestions coming, knowledge is power.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: David in MN on February 10, 2013, 02:16:05 PM
Holy crap, there's a lot to deal with here. First and foremost, a katana will work. I own one. Get out of the mindset that you will be hacking away like a movie. The first strike with a katana is usually a forward, straight strike. Think of a lunge that extends the arms. The people who created this martial art, as I understand it, aimed for the adam's apple. If it connects, lights out. I have a katana. It would not be my first choice.

I also have a viking style throwing axe. Much better than the katana. It's small and delivers huge impact. It would not be my first choice.

Essentially, I am limiting myself to hallspace. A baseball bat, axe handle, katana, and other long weapons cannot be implemented. I would use an impact weapon with a short fulcrum. A tire iron or crow bar make sense to me. My gold standard is my ASP, which is my non-gun defense tool. Cops carry them for a reason. Assuming one could not get his hands on an ASP, I would recommend without reservation a hammer. My preference is a ball peen hammer (the old trademark of the Hell's Angels) but any framing hammer will do. Compact but forceful.

I realize we think the best way to stop someone is with a broad cutting stroke but it isn't. Guns work because of the incredible trauma to the body they cause, not because of blood loss. A dull impact weapon that causes blunt force trauma will frequently perform better than a blade. Knock someone out with a hammer and the conflict is over. Slice their arm open and you risk enraging them. As a comparison, think how much more stopped in your tracks the last time you stubbed your toe than the last time you had a cut that required stitches.

I pray none of this ever becomes necessary. Peace and love be with you all. David
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Bolomark on February 10, 2013, 02:49:15 PM
. A dull impact weapon that causes blunt force trauma will frequently perform better than a blade. Knock someone out with a hammer and the conflict is over. Slice their arm open and you risk enraging them. As a comparison, think how much more stopped in your tracks the last time you stubbed your toe than the last time you had a cut that required stitches.

I pray none of this ever becomes necessary. Peace and love be with you all. David
i Agree that's why its nice to have one of these just in case. mace that doesn't come in a can.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-S87kkS5m5Y
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: soupbone on February 10, 2013, 04:51:11 PM
Ah, yes, hammers - claw, ball peen, straight peen, drywall. None are "weapons", and all have a reason to be in the house or car. Just never say you were carrying it to defend yourself - that could put it in the "weapon" category, depending on the local laws. Personally, I would go for a small straight peen - hammer on one end and a dull ax head on the other. There's a lot of energy in a swing, so you don't have to sharpen it - and turn it into a "weapon".

If it hasn't been mentioned before, I would suggest an ABC Dry Powder Fire Extinguisher. It leaves a hell of a mess to clean up, and you wouldn't want to use it in an elevator, but it will stop someone in his/her/its tracks. Imagine a blast of baking soda under high pressure in the face - you can't breathe, see; you are in extreme pain from it in your eyes......... Plus to get one requires no permits, licensing, etc., and only shows that you are a careful homeowner or driver.

soupbone
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: donaldj on February 11, 2013, 09:11:08 AM
Knock someone out with a hammer and the conflict is over. Slice their arm open and you risk enraging them.

This is comparing a "perfect hit" with the hammer with a less than perfect hit with the edged weapon., then comparing the effectiveness. If I compared a .22LR hit to the chest and a 12g slug hit to the pinky toe, I, too, can conclude the .22LR has more stopping power than the 12g slug. Apples and apples please!  =)

Bottom line is it's going to be the weapon/tool you are most familiar with  and that you've trained in. Personally, I think edged weapons will allow more instantaneous damage than blunt force ones will, but it's going to boil down to familiarity and skill.

The confined space of a hallway is a good thing to consider, but with familiarity and training, you're just going to adapt the attacks you use with a particular weapon, not necessarily preclude the weapon entirely. If I was well trained in nunchaku (not just flailing them about, but the full striking and grappling characteristics of the weapon as well), then that's what I'd use in a fight. Similarly, if I was most trained in a katana, in a hallway where I could not necessarily do a ton of wide swings, I would still have the skill sets for shallow swings, appropriate cuts, thrusts, parries, etc, to make it my most viable choice. With the reach of the weapon, it will have extra advantages in keeping an attacker at distance.

Some weapons will be ill-suited for interior use, I admit that, such as a naginata or halberd. But, if someone is very well trained in the naginata, it could be adapted for an interior use (shorten the shaft, called the "e bu"), and similar modifications.

Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Shaunypoo on February 11, 2013, 10:16:44 AM
The confined space of a hallway is a good thing to consider, but with familiarity and training, you're just going to adapt the attacks you use with a particular weapon, not necessarily preclude the weapon entirely. If I was well trained in nunchaku (not just flailing them about, but the full striking and grappling characteristics of the weapon as well), then that's what I'd use in a fight. Similarly, if I was most trained in a katana, in a hallway where I could not necessarily do a ton of wide swings, I would still have the skill sets for shallow swings, appropriate cuts, thrusts, parries, etc, to make it my most viable choice. With the reach of the weapon, it will have extra advantages in keeping an attacker at distance.

A great weapon for range even in a small space like a hallway would be any of the fencing weapons: the foil, epee, or sabre.  Thrusting and parrying are integral to the sport and there are places all over the US to train.  In training you will use safety blades, but authentic blades are not that hard to come by, and if you are into the sport it would not be unreasonable for you to have a replica blade.  Keep it handy mounted to your bedroom wall and you are instantly armed with a weapon you are trained to use and the ability to use it in a confined space.  Wield it with a flourish and you might deter someone as well.    Most people would not be afraid of a hammer and you have to get real close to use it, not so much with a blade.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: David in MN on February 21, 2013, 02:11:57 PM
This is comparing a "perfect hit" with the hammer with a less than perfect hit with the edged weapon., then comparing the effectiveness. If I compared a .22LR hit to the chest and a 12g slug hit to the pinky toe, I, too, can conclude the .22LR has more stopping power than the 12g slug. Apples and apples please!  =)

I'm sorry if I was unclear. The blunt objects have the benefit of being imprecise. Bad cuts can be ignored due to lack of trauma. Blunt force always has pain. Anyone who has had a cut stitched or cauterized knows their body can still function fine. Anyone who has been knocked out badly wakes up not knowing where they are. The idea of slicing clean through the body with a blade without years of experience is not ideal. Historically, blades were caught in the ribs, between arm bones, etc. I assure you if I hit a human with a hammer on the chest and you ran one through with a sword both would be on the ground. And the hammer doesn't get stuck in the body.

I have been a hobby armorer (I make suits of armor) for 15 years. The mythology of old weapons is amazing. There was no ideal. They all broke. You must train to orient a sword through the ribs. My very expensive hand made medieval weapons aren't forged as hard as a new handtool. I'm really not trying to be rude but most folks just can't see how weak many old weapons were. Also don't forget that knights carried maces and hammers.

This thread has way too much mythology. I've been a victim of that myself. Any of you guys test your blades against leather? My old crap leather jacket stops most edges I've tested against. In that case the sword becomes a lousy club. Also, you don't get to define the location of an attack. If there are more than one person coming at you, the fight will move. If you guys believe swords work, please test them. They may fall short.

Sorry if I come off aggressive. Not my intention. I used to think this stuff. I have swords. Real ones. They don't work for me. Best of luck to all.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Tyronedeblanco on February 21, 2013, 05:18:04 PM
a very very solid broomstick like 3 ft "wooden rod".  Watched a ex military man perform some pretty nasty tactics with a 3' thick cylinder piece of wood. With basic training, you could really ruin a person's day with it.  Very cheap!!
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: northernboy65 on February 24, 2013, 09:51:13 AM
Here in Canada I just got for my wife and I both steal battons I'm an transit bus driver and have been physically attacked 2 times and had no help from police except for them to tell me to let them have what they want. Not exceptable for me I'm a fighter (ex military) But here with such strict gun laws and preception of gun owners as CRAZYS I have decided on a less deadly force use there tactics on them people fear pain most so a steal bar might be enough to deter an attacker
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: soupbone on February 24, 2013, 05:01:23 PM
a very very solid broomstick like 3 ft "wooden rod".  Watched a ex military man perform some pretty nasty tactics with a 3' thick cylinder piece of wood. With basic training, you could really ruin a person's day with it.  Very cheap!!

"Hey, dude, wanna play "Dodge Log?!?" - quite effective in the narrow confines of a hallway.

 ;D

soupbone
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: oktheniknow on February 25, 2013, 12:27:20 PM
Saw some mentions of air rifles. I'm starting to research into. My interest would be one that is powerful enough to kill a deer, squirrels, and is relatively quiet. Providing some home defense of a sort would be a plus. Have a neighbor not far away and would not like to startle with the sound. Would rather not have something that relied on CO2, and would use standard air rifle ammo or ones I make myself. Maybe a night scope on it. Suggestions?
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Shaunypoo on February 25, 2013, 12:50:24 PM
Saw some mentions of air rifles. I'm starting to research into. My interest would be one that is powerful enough to kill a deer, squirrels, and is relatively quiet. Providing some home defense of a sort would be a plus. Have a neighbor not far away and would not like to startle with the sound. Would rather not have something that relied on CO2, and would use standard air rifle ammo or ones I make myself. Maybe a night scope on it. Suggestions?

I, personally, would put that under the heading of "gun" and therefore not under the perview of "Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun".  Also, there are a few threads dealing with air rifles as home defense. 

Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: blademan on February 27, 2013, 11:11:55 AM
Yes, go to the air gun board and look at the posts there. Much debate. And yes and no with the air gun being "gun" if we are looking at non firearms, the they are not. But if we are looking at stuff that is completely out of the form factor of a "gun" then they are. But they can make a good addition to a system.
   Benjamin rogue .357, look it up.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: yoshi on May 08, 2013, 11:15:04 AM
Holy crap, there's a lot to deal with here. First and foremost, a katana will work. I own one. Get out of the mindset that you will be hacking away like a movie. The first strike with a katana is usually a forward, straight strike. Think of a lunge that extends the arms. The people who created this martial art, as I understand it, aimed for the adam's apple. If it connects, lights out. I have a katana. It would not be my first choice.

Not to nitpick, but I disagree with this. I'm not sure which martial art you are speaking about, but a few things:

First, not all people on the battlefield had katana. More to the point, most of the people on the battlefield were not samurai at all, they were common foot soldiers. The majority of soldiers on the battlefield never had katanas, they had yari (long spears), bisento, naginata (for women), bows/arrows, staves and guns - depending on what time period we're speaking about. I'm not saying there weren't any swords, but they weren't nearly as prevalent as you think.

Swords, especially good swords, were reserved for higher ranking samurai and generals, not foot soldiers. That said, most samurai were also on horseback and wore full armor. The Adam's Apple was not a prime target given the armor, being on a horse, and the dynamics of a battlefield. In addition, samurai generally did not gallop into the middle of a battle; they waited until the foot soldiers fought their wars of attrition and then went in to try and kill the enemy's generals.

Simply put, the target was wherever a target was available. If that meant the top of the head, it was the top of the head. If that meant the legs or under the arm, that was the target.

Another misconception that needs to be cleared up is that not all swords were the beautifully crafted pieces we have come to know and love. It was a period of war, and daimyo (feudal warlords) didn't have the luxury of commissioning one or two master craftsmen to create thousands of swords. Most of the swords - especially for those foot soldiers who were given one - were hacking and slashing implements, not refined watermelon cutters. They were trained to hack away at anything and everything in their path, not engage in Musahi-worthy beachfront fight scenes.

Lastly, let's remember that most samurai were just kids and young adults. It was extremely rare for samurai to be 50-year old seasoned fighters with hundreds of hand-to-hand combat kills to their name. Though I don't know the specific number, the average age of soldiers during this period was much closer to 19 than 40.

I don't mean to pick on you, I just want to illustrate some of the misconceptions.

Now, back to our modern reality. Yes, katana are effective weapons. However, unless you are buying a several thousand dollar sword that has a blade specifically created to hold a good edge, you will not be able to sharpen the blade of a cheap katana to hold a good edge; it will chip or break before you get it to be as sharp as a quality blade. You, just like the average Japanese foot soldier, will be hacking and slashing and not precision thrusting. Also, the materials of the tsuka are to be considered. Many factory-made katana can not withstand being used regularly and with full force. The blade will fly out of the tsuka in many shoddy products.

Which brings me to my last point, hopefully not interpreted as hostile because it's not intended to be so:

How many of you/us have actually PRACTICED using a sword against an opponent? Not just a guy who will stand there for you while you aim, but an engaged threat? I mean a moving enemy with his own weapon who is trying to attack you or someone you love. I have, every week for years and years and years and years. Let me tell you something, it's ridiculously difficult... almost prohibitively so. The only way you are going to tsuki (thrust) a sword and hit an attacker's Adam's Apple effectively during a home invasion defense scenario is if you get really, REALLY lucky. Sorry, but it's just not going to happen in my experience.

Does that mean a sword isn't a viable home defense option? Not at all, but you may want to consider alternative methods of its use rather than assuming a perfect thrust is going to work. Chances are it won't.

I realize I'm making the assumption of samurai; regardless, I think if nothing else some historical background will provide good food for thought.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: blademan on May 08, 2013, 03:43:56 PM
Yoshi:
  Seriously man, I'm not trying to be mean to you here at all but dude go write a book. You seem to know a lot about eido japan but are so frustrated with misconceptions that you kinda tell us how the watch works when all we wanted was the time.
  The previous poster was simply making the allusion to the fact that the katana has more than just slashing ability.
  I also disagree on your points that a katana HAS to cost $1000s or more to do the job. I will bet you my lefty that a Cold Steel Katana machete (yes soft spring steel) will kill on a thrust. It may or may not be damaged, but kill it will. And I doubt it will fly out of the handle unless you were spinning it by the handle at something over 1000 rpm.
  Also, I disagree with your point that you have to be awesome or practice all the time for years and years to do it. (May be you can't pluck someone's apple, but chest stomach, leg, all good targets to hit as long as you don't stop once you have hit them)
  Practice, sure, but don't discount determination and agression in a fight.
  My main problem with the katana (and its a really small problem) is its length, weight, and balance when considered for indoor use. Fortunately, the japanese solved this problem with the (drum roll please) wakizashi. It was a shorter version of the katan. (Often made from a broken katana) and often worn indoors when the katana was socially inappropriate or when the katana would be ineffective due to close quaters and got left at the door.
   Its, shorter, lighter, less apt to momentum caused over swing or thrust. Its less likely to fly from your hand under a given swing force too. It would be much more nimble even in a hallway and could be swung with great force in most living rooms.
   Again though, regardless of your weapon of choice, the paramount consideration here is not to leave yourself open for easy attack and to make your home very hard to access and unfriendly to intruders. I would rather avoid the fight even if I am prepared to engage.
   Wakizashi. Better in confined spaces than a katana.
   "Butterfly" swords make an interesting idea for this purpose too.
   If you "need" something smaller than that, you are probably fighting in a closet and have made a serious mistake somewhere.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: osubuckeye4 on May 08, 2013, 03:55:30 PM

How many of you/us have actually PRACTICED using a sword against an opponent? Not just a guy who will stand there for you while you aim, but an engaged threat? I mean a moving enemy with his own weapon who is trying to attack you or someone you love. I have, every week for years and years and years and years. Let me tell you something, it's ridiculously difficult... almost prohibitively so. The only way you are going to tsuki (thrust) a sword and hit an attacker's Adam's Apple effectively during a home invasion defense scenario is if you get really, REALLY lucky. Sorry, but it's just not going to happen in my experience.

Replace sword with pretty much any object one has to swing and it becomes pretty difficult.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: inbox485 on May 08, 2013, 03:58:38 PM
Yoshi:
  Seriously man, I'm not trying to be mean to you here at all but dude go write a book. You seem to know a lot about eido japan but are so frustrated with misconceptions that you kinda tell us how the watch works when all we wanted was the time.
  The previous poster was simply making the allusion to the fact that the katana has more than just slashing ability.
  I also disagree on your points that a katana HAS to cost $1000s or more to do the job. I will bet you my lefty that a Cold Steel Katana machete (yes soft spring steel) will kill on a thrust. It may or may not be damaged, but kill it will. And I doubt it will fly out of the handle unless you were spinning it by the handle at something over 1000 rpm.
  Also, I disagree with your point that you have to be awesome or practice all the time for years and years to do it. (May be you can't pluck someone's apple, but chest stomach, leg, all good targets to hit as long as you don't stop once you have hit them)
  Practice, sure, but don't discount determination and agression in a fight.
  My main problem with the katana (and its a really small problem) is its length, weight, and balance when considered for indoor use. Fortunately, the japanese solved this problem with the (drum roll please) wakizashi. It was a shorter version of the katan. (Often made from a broken katana) and often worn indoors when the katana was socially inappropriate or when the katana would be ineffective due to close quaters and got left at the door.
   Its, shorter, lighter, less apt to momentum caused over swing or thrust. Its less likely to fly from your hand under a given swing force too. It would be much more nimble even in a hallway and could be swung with great force in most living rooms.
   Again though, regardless of your weapon of choice, the paramount consideration here is not to leave yourself open for easy attack and to make your home very hard to access and unfriendly to intruders. I would rather avoid the fight even if I am prepared to engage.
   Wakizashi. Better in confined spaces than a katana.
   "Butterfly" swords make an interesting idea for this purpose too.
   If you "need" something smaller than that, you are probably fighting in a closet and have made a serious mistake somewhere.

I wasn't even going to spend that much time typing so +1.

All I would add is that I was trained to use the extended length katanas indoors. The technique is different, but the results are devastating and I wouldn't trade it for a wakizashi. Most indoor technique completely avoids the wide cuts and slashes in favor of whittling your way in then leveraging through (this is where the properly sized katana gets real useful - and for most of the US, that means some sort of over sized katana).  Going sword vs gun indoors relies heavily on this and using the 90 degree turns in houses to get the 45 degree approaches that keep you out of the line of the barrel, and the lunge allows you to tangle (while slicing) the persons arms to prevent them from turning in on you. I strongly prefer the simplicity of getting barricaded and waiting with a long gun, but if I had a sword, I'd make do.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: blademan on May 08, 2013, 05:17:41 PM
Thanks, inbox. Always enjoy your responses to my posts.
The reason I brought up the wakizashi is for the reason you said, training. I think that most (not all, but a whole lot) of the people who would use a sword of any kind in place of a gun for home defence, probably won't seek out that kind of training, so my thoughts were for that type and I think the waki excells there. Its just a bit more than a large knife (a lot of SCA people will sneer that at you if you bring one out, but that's their problem, if they can't get the job done with a blade that is shorter than their body length, they have some issues) and can be used more intuitively than the oversized katana, but you are right, with the right training, just about any long sharp pointy can be employed in this task.
   Thanks for the +1, pedantism especially where the sentiment is misplaced is hard for me to resist contesting. Hope I wasn't too harsh. Tried to be civil.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: yoshi on May 09, 2013, 07:14:28 AM
Yoshi:
  Seriously man, I'm not trying to be mean to you here at all but dude go write a book. You seem to know a lot about eido japan but are so frustrated with misconceptions that you kinda tell us how the watch works when all we wanted was the time.

Frustrated? I was not frustrated at all, not even a little bit. Is this not a discussion forum, where we get to discuss things? I thought that was the whole point; I didn't realize it was mandated for me to agree with someone simply because you "wanted the time." I'm not sure why you are so offended about my comments. I have a lot of experience in sword work and thought it might be valuable to the discussion. If nothing else I assumed it would further the conversation with other experienced individuals. I fail to see how my contribution is any different than someone posting misconceptions about swales or duck ponds and having someone else contribute their knowledge to the discussion. (Kind of like how Jack does the podcast every single day...)

The original poster made a comment: "the first strike with a katana is usually a thrust. The people who created it, as I understand it, aimed for the Adam's Apple." The first strike with a katana is actually where the opening presents itself, not a specific part of the body. You attack my counterpoint by telling me where you can hit a person with a sword. Of course you can, which was exactly MY point. Thank you for agreeing with me while being pissed at me at the same time. I don't agree with his statement, and I think misconceptions are a great way to get someone seriously hurt, so I offered a counter opinion based on my knowledge and experience. Rather than just make a statement without more information to support my thoughts, I offered some background so there is context. You can choose to disagree, but get off your high horse with your "go write a book" comments. It's unwarranted and immature.

This is the first time I've ever been yelled at for being knowledgeable about a subject. Seriously?

I'm not going to go back and forth with you, but please read your reply to my post and think about what you wrote; specifically the first part where you blast me for giving lots of information and then the second part where you give your own opinion about swords.

I'm done. Have fun... sorry to spoil your party.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: David in MN on May 09, 2013, 01:29:13 PM
Um, guys, please be calm. Yeah, I have a little background in kenjutsu but I'm far from expert. Schools vary on what and how they are taught and I wouldn't put down anyone for adding their opinion. I don't mind at all if my info is not 100% accurate and I add it here to get more ideas. I assume positive intent on all posts even when we call each other out.

Yoshi- man, I don't disagree with you. I was taught to lunge in and use the blade's curve to go under the opponent's edge and go for the neck because his blade will be lifted and present less danger. It worked well in a couple SCA events in college with guys who never studied the science of swordfighting.

If you guys follow my posts, you know I would prefer my ball peen hammer anyway. I'm not super hung up on edged weapons and even if I were, I prefer Viking hand axes to Asian swords (just my preference, not judgement).
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: blademan on May 09, 2013, 01:42:20 PM
Yoshi, 1. I'm sorry to offend, it wanst my intention.
2. I wasn't partying, you didn't rain on it.
3. I'm glad that you saw where I was agreeing with you, because on some points, I was even though I didn't specifically say it.
4. "Write a book" wasn't meant to be insulting, I was being serious, you sound like you know a bit about this, and could probably write a pretty informative book on the subject.
5. Just because I disagree with you doesn't make you wrong or me right.
6. Again, I understand why you got miffed, and I hope you understand that wasn't my intention.
 
  That being said, I do agree with Yoshi that if you decide on a sword (any kind) for H.D. then you should practice with it. Even so, don't not use the sword because you haven't trained. Even a unpracticed swordsman can kill. Its mostly better than bare hands.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: joeinwv on May 09, 2013, 08:59:43 PM
So let's sum up:
- if you are trained to use a sword and have a real, non-bullshit sword, that rules
- beating someone in the head with a hammer will knock them the eff out
- pounding someone with a ball bat will change their outlook on life
- spraying someone in the face with a fire extinguisher / bug spray / mace / WD40 will make them prefer that you had not done so, all else considered equal
- expensive, large caliber, rare and somewhat complex air guns are deadly

My advice - take $75 bucks to the pawn shop and get a single shot 12ga. It's about 475% more effective than all the above.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: livinitup0 on May 10, 2013, 08:19:17 AM
So let's sum up:
- if you are trained to use a sword and have a real, non-bullshit sword, that rules
- beating someone in the head with a hammer will knock them the eff out
- pounding someone with a ball bat will change their outlook on life
- spraying someone in the face with a fire extinguisher / bug spray / mace / WD40 will make them prefer that you had not done so, all else considered equal
- expensive, large caliber, rare and somewhat complex air guns are deadly

My advice - take $75 bucks to the pawn shop and get a single shot 12ga. It's about 475% more effective than all the above.

+1
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: osubuckeye4 on May 10, 2013, 09:16:45 AM
So let's sum up:
- if you are trained to use a sword and have a real, non-bullshit sword, that rules
- beating someone in the head with a hammer will knock them the eff out
- pounding someone with a ball bat will change their outlook on life
- spraying someone in the face with a fire extinguisher / bug spray / mace / WD40 will make them prefer that you had not done so, all else considered equal
- expensive, large caliber, rare and somewhat complex air guns are deadly

My advice - take $75 bucks to the pawn shop and get a single shot 12ga. It's about 475% more effective than all the above.

I'd also venture to say that you're much less likely to go to jail (in the eyes of a jury) for a knee-jerk reaction like shooting an intruder... than you are if you confront the exact same intruder in exactly the same manner and slice them in half with a katana blade.

Especailly if the intruder ends up being unarmed.

I'm not really basing this off of any legal precedence... just guessing/thinking how I would probably view something as a juror.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: David in MN on May 10, 2013, 09:52:25 AM
So let's sum up:
- if you are trained to use a sword and have a real, non-bullshit sword, that rules
- beating someone in the head with a hammer will knock them the eff out
- pounding someone with a ball bat will change their outlook on life
- spraying someone in the face with a fire extinguisher / bug spray / mace / WD40 will make them prefer that you had not done so, all else considered equal
- expensive, large caliber, rare and somewhat complex air guns are deadly

My advice - take $75 bucks to the pawn shop and get a single shot 12ga. It's about 475% more effective than all the above.

And we all love each other and respect differences of opinion. But couldn't you get a decent pump for a little bit more... J/K
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: blademan on May 10, 2013, 11:00:50 AM
I gave you a +1 too joe. Good point. However the thread is about lack of gun.
  If the katana is too big for some people, or too scary for those that may be judging you, something like the siket or corn knife Jack talks about often would probably scare someone into leaving and if it didn't it would really ruin someone's day.
 
  Not to belabor the point about the katana visa vi the purchase price in relation to quality, but here's an example that I think explains my thoughts on it:
  You can buy a machete for anywhere from $10 to $100. Any machete in that range will probably work at least once in a home defence situation. (Africa and South America are the final answer in the question of the combat effectiveness of a machete)
  Most low end swords (of any shape but katana-"esque" types seem prevalent) are in this same price range meaning that they are probably similar in terms of construction, quality, so will probably work about the same.
  Someone did make a good point about the legal issues of using ANY edged weapon in ANY self defense situation.
  I'm not saying don't do it. Do what you have to to live through it, but know that if you disembowel someone, really mess someone up with a sword, hatchet, knife, etc, unless you are in a really strong castle doctrine state that hasn't been over liberalized and has more sympathy for the criminal than the victim, you will probably end up doing some prison time. People freak out when they think about knives and swords being use violently.
  They emote instead of thinking, and they come to illogical conclusions.
  That's my experience at least. I talk to people about this stuff a lot just to judge the average reaction of the public to different things. It seems that knife like things are just too scary for most people to realize that its okay to use them in self protection. They misempathize with the agressor because it seems like he got the worse end of the deal instead of realizing that he brought it on himself. I've actually had conversations where a person thought that the person shooting the intruder or agressor was ok but the guy with a knife, machete or sword or whatever was wrong.
  People have some really strange and overly complex thought processes when it comes to the right of other people to defend themselves. They are usually ok with doing whatever THEY have to to defend THEMselves, but it changes when they consider someone else's ability to defend themselves. People have some real arbitrary emotional boundries when considering the actions of others that don't really effect them personally. Over empathization.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: inbox485 on May 10, 2013, 11:20:27 AM
Best home defense ****If not a gun****

Obviously, I'd rather have an AR-15 with 60 round surefire mags, a 12" barrel, and a suppressor. But with legal restraints, I have to rein that in a bit. For some, reining that in means nothing that is a firearm.

Also, as a generic "I don't know what I'll have to deal with, but this is what I'll have to do it with" type weapon, I frankly would choose a sword over a single shot gun indoors if I had to choose one or the other. Lucky me, I don't. If a single shot was the max of my legal limits, I'd have both and make do.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: blademan on May 10, 2013, 12:40:13 PM
My advice - take $75 bucks to the pawn shop and get a single shot 12ga. It's about 475% more effective than all the above.

Just put a bayonett lug on it so you still have and edged weapon to fall back on once you fire that one shot!
;)
 
 I'm not sure I would pick a sword instead of a single shot shotgun, depends on the configuration, and situation and what they were coming at me with.
 
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: inbox485 on May 10, 2013, 01:11:30 PM
Just put a bayonett lug on it so you still have and edged weapon to fall back on once you fire that one shot!
;)
 
 I'm not sure I would pick a sword instead of a single shot shotgun, depends on the configuration, and situation and what they were coming at me with.
 

We're off in the land of hypotheticals so bear with me here, but in this land where you can only own a single shot shotgun, I doubt it would have a bayonet lug. So for the sake of argument, your options are a single shot shotgun that becomes a club after one shot, or a katana. Indoors, and with no foreknowledge of how many or what tools assailants might be bringing, and given indoor conditions intimately known to me and the sorts of pinch points I could create to neutralize the benefit of an assailant's firearm, and the very real ability to recover said firearms if there are multiples trying to get through said pinch point, I would choose the katana if it was an either or proposition. Part of that has to do with the difference between a firearm where even 00 buck isn't a magic off switch, and a sword where all the determination in the world won't make your body function if the pieces aren't attached anymore. Part of it is that swords don't run out of ammo. And part of it is a sword can be used to tangle while slicing and in the case of multiples, seeing your buddy fall to pieces has a way of deterring further action. But back to reality, I wouldn't choose either or if I could just have both.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: osubuckeye4 on May 10, 2013, 02:27:11 PM
  Someone did make a good point about the legal issues of using ANY edged weapon in ANY self defense situation.
  I'm not saying don't do it. Do what you have to to live through it, but know that if you disembowel someone, really mess someone up with a sword, hatchet, knife, etc, unless you are in a really strong castle doctrine state that hasn't been over liberalized and has more sympathy for the criminal than the victim, you will probably end up doing some prison time. People freak out when they think about knives and swords being use violently.
  They emote instead of thinking, and they come to illogical conclusions.
  That's my experience at least. I talk to people about this stuff a lot just to judge the average reaction of the public to different things. It seems that knife like things are just too scary for most people to realize that its okay to use them in self protection. They misempathize with the agressor because it seems like he got the worse end of the deal instead of realizing that he brought it on himself. I've actually had conversations where a person thought that the person shooting the intruder or agressor was ok but the guy with a knife, machete or sword or whatever was wrong.
  People have some really strange and overly complex thought processes when it comes to the right of other people to defend themselves. They are usually ok with doing whatever THEY have to to defend THEMselves, but it changes when they consider someone else's ability to defend themselves. People have some real arbitrary emotional boundries when considering the actions of others that don't really effect them personally. Over empathization.

The way I look at it (I'm the guy who wrote the legal aspect post), is this:

Most "intruder" situations are not ones where someone is kicking down a front door with a gun and looking for a confrontation with a random homeowner.

If you're incredibly unlucky and run into that situation and you do use a katana blade, I don't think there are many jurys out there who are going to send you to jail. The whole, "I didn't know the person, they had a gun, my life and my families lives were in danger..." rationale would most likely win out.



I just think that most situations where an intruder enters a home, they are entering a home they either think is unoccupied, or it's a misunderstanding (some drunk idiot goes to the wrong house and busts a window to get in or kicks a door down because s/he's not thinking).

If that type of situation happens and you shoot the person, I can see a lot of juries being sympathetic. It's dark, you just got out of bed, your contacts/glasses weren't in/on... you pulled the trigger then got in closer and realized what was going on.

If that same misunderstand situation happens and you cut the person in half with a katana blade... or chop one of their arms off with a machete, you're running a much higher possibility that you're going to jail for execessive force/unnecessary escalation of a situation.

Is that really fair? No, not really... but that's just the way it is.

I'm not saying anyone who has a katana blade or machete at their bedside should give it up... just playing devils advocate.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: blademan on May 10, 2013, 02:39:06 PM
Understood inbox, I'd still put one on mine.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pistol_sword
 
Now I'm just being silly.
 
 Just a standard set of escrima bastones would be a pretty effective weapon to. I'm not talking about the ideal what you would do if, where you perfect the situation to the point that the discussion becomes even less than academic, its just pointless. I'm talking about this is what you have available in a time of need. I really don't think you "NEED" or have to have years of perfect practice to win a fight with a particular weapon, its great to have, but take the bastones for a moment. I can tell you the best way end an home invasion scenario with those: don't engage unless you have too, if you have to, hit hard, fast and keep doing it until they stop moving or run away. Sure, certain target areas and techniques are great, but the basic idea is to beat the heck out of the person.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: livinitup0 on May 10, 2013, 03:03:05 PM
even just a year ago I would have been right along with a lot of guys debating swords, knives, impromptu weapons... but after really doing research into the legal ramifications as well as the effectiveness of melee weapons, especially in a home defense situation... I really think im I'm going to be trading in quite a few blades for a used mossy.

"I was afraid for my family so I pulled the trigger" is a lot easier to explain than "I was afraid for my family so I beat him in the head with a stick/sword/axe/hammer/pool noodle until he stopped moving" ...seems a lot more effective too.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: blademan on May 10, 2013, 03:15:23 PM
Osubuckeye:
  Cool man, I get what you are saying. There are some other factors involved here too. I have aske several lawyers about this. This was their experience either personal or vicarious:
  As a large male (more so if you have training) it is a bad idea to use a knife or sword or other killing weapon in self defense.
They are weapons that many people are unfamiliar with and are a little nervous about.
  They scare people and its a sanctimonious DA's dream case:
  "Why did you keep this item in your house?"
"Oh you kept it for defense? So you WANTED to use it on a human!"
 "You practiced killing techniques with this? So you practiced killing!"

 I'm not saying this is how it will always go and like you I'm not saying not to plan to use it or not to use it at all, but listen to the Massaad Ayoob episode Jack did recently and apply that to any home defense self defense situation.
 
   Its better to the charged by a police officer than by the emergency room. You can't appeal death. You can appeal a conviction.

   The thing is that any time you intentionally (justified or not) injure or kill someone and the police become involved, you are going to have the system investigate what you did. Like Massaad said, you have to have a pre existing procedure in place to deal with that. If you haven't listened to the episode Massaad Ayoob did with Jack, go listen to it. Its pretty pertinent to this thread. It could apply to defending yourself with pliers or a hand cannon.
 
 Livinitup: just saw your post. That's exactly whay I mean. I'm listening to Jack talk about this right now on todays show.
  Its exactly what I am trying to say here.
 Go listen. Its at the 1:49ish mark.
"Its harder to justify your need to use a knife in court that it is a gun." Quote from today's show.
 
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Fyrediver on May 16, 2013, 02:23:11 PM
NOT the can of wasp spray that some people will recommend.  A couple was attacked in their home and the husband sprayed the assailant with Wasp spray to no effect.  He then broke a bat on the intruder.  Then he was in the fight of his life.  His wife stepped in and stabbed the intruder to death to save her husband.

If you're going to get a spray make sure it's designed to stop a human (or bear) NOT wasps. 

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/intruder-killed-crossfit-trainer-identified-article-1.1346034
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: inbox485 on May 16, 2013, 02:31:20 PM
NOT the can of wasp spray that some people will recommend.  A couple was attacked in their home and the husband sprayed the assailant with Wasp spray to no effect.  He then broke a bat on the intruder.  Then he was in the fight of his life.  His wife stepped in and stabbed the intruder to death to save her husband.

If you're going to get a spray make sure it's designed to stop a human (or bear) NOT wasps. 

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/intruder-killed-crossfit-trainer-identified-article-1.1346034


SMH... wasp spray reacts with exoskeletons. Unless we are in sci-fi land, those sort of intruders don't have exoskeletons. Oven cleaner can blind people, but isn't really a skin agent either. A bat works, but maybe next time use one that doesn't suck so bad. But the winner here: something with a sharp edge and a point. If I had to live in NY, I'd at least have a machete handy and would keep one of the kitchen knives hair shaving sharp.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Blain on May 16, 2013, 02:48:36 PM
Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
1. Dog (toys or miniatures need not apply)
2. High quality OC pepper spray
3. Manageable length baseball bat
4. Stun gun
5. Heavy fixed blade knife
6. Rope and/or large heavy zip-ties
7. Phone
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: blademan on May 17, 2013, 06:11:46 AM
Freydiver, thanks for posting that. There are several threads similar to this on the board. Wasp spray comes up in them frequently. Though I'm sure it wouldn't be totally useless in all cases, I am dead set against it as opposed to OC or another proven purpose buit chemical deterent. I have this opinion for both effectiveness and legal reasons. "It is a Federal Offense to use this product in a way inconsistent with its labeling." Aint nobody got time for that.
 I've also seen a water gun filled with ammonia mentioned several times. Things like this almost make me angry. This is a horrible idea and for obvious reasons, not the least of all is that it puts you at risk of prosecution or civil suit. And you are pretty likely to get convicted or decided against if you end up in court.
  OC has a long histor of being accepte as a legal means of self defense in this country.
  However, I wonder if the baseball bat that broke on the guy was sound to begin with. Brings up a good point, drill with your weapons and procedures for home defense. That way you know if they work and if the weapons are in good shape.
  Bet that guy brought some flowers home the next day.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: inbox485 on May 17, 2013, 01:21:36 PM
Freydiver, thanks for posting that. There are several threads similar to this on the board. Wasp spray comes up in them frequently. Though I'm sure it wouldn't be totally useless in all cases, I am dead set against it as opposed to OC or another proven purpose buit chemical deterent. I have this opinion for both effectiveness and legal reasons. "It is a Federal Offense to use this product in a way inconsistent with its labeling." Aint nobody got time for that.
 I've also seen a water gun filled with ammonia mentioned several times. Things like this almost make me angry. This is a horrible idea and for obvious reasons, not the least of all is that it puts you at risk of prosecution or civil suit. And you are pretty likely to get convicted or decided against if you end up in court.
  OC has a long histor of being accepte as a legal means of self defense in this country.
  However, I wonder if the baseball bat that broke on the guy was sound to begin with. Brings up a good point, drill with your weapons and procedures for home defense. That way you know if they work and if the weapons are in good shape.
  Bet that guy brought some flowers home the next day.

You should be able to lay full force into a punching bag with a bat and not have either break if they are any good. Also gives you a feel for what hitting a human is like vs hitting a baseball. Still, if you are thinking home defense, a sharp edge makes the difference between hurting and breaking somebody you need to stop ASAP. If it helps, just go back in history a tad to when firearms weren't really home defense options and lo and behold, machetes, swords, and hatchets were always preferred to sticks and clubs.

For wasp spray, oven cleaner, ammonia, etc, the liability / federal crap has to do with intent, and weapons of opportunity used under duress have never been used against the victim that I've heard of. Either way, the stuff is still crap.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: blademan on May 19, 2013, 03:40:40 PM
Yep, that's what made me wonder about the condition of the bat. I have had some one break a pool cue on my leg without hurting me. It was cheap and I am stout. A bat is a whole other thing though.
  I'm not so worried about criminal cases brought against someone for using wasp spray or something like that so much as I am a civil suit. As a weapon of opportunity, go for it if you HAVE to. I think its pretty unlikely to get you in trouble, but it not impossible. My point is that having the right tools at hand is almost universally better than having to wing it. And its definitely better than intentionally depending on something not intended for that use just because it "feels" or "seems" like it would work as well or better than the right tool.
  And yep, I agree with you as well that sharp is usually better than blunt. +1 inbox. Get the tools meant for the job and improvise when you have to, don't use improvisation as your plan.
Stay safe people.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: osubuckeye4 on May 23, 2013, 08:37:03 AM
For wasp spray, oven cleaner, ammonia, etc, the liability / federal crap has to do with intent, and weapons of opportunity used under duress have never been used against the victim that I've heard of. Either way, the stuff is still crap.

There is a big difference between grabbing a can of wasp spray or a bottle of ammonia that is sitting in a kitchen cabinet (reasonable in a moment of panic)... then grabbing a Super Soaker that was pre-loaded with ammonia or some other pre-made blinding solution loaded into it.

I just think that anyone will have a hard time explaining to a jury why they pre-loaded a water gun with a solution that could blind someone.

Are there circumstances where they could? (maybe a woman who had a restraining order against an ex-boyfriend/husband) Sure.

Why put oneself in that position though? Just buy a gun or a blade or some other tool that is designed for home defense and use that.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: d3nni5 on May 23, 2013, 09:22:06 AM


So far as the bat breaking, use an aluminum softball bat.   If you break that over someone, and they keep coming....they are hopped up on something and feeling no pain. 

Other items that come to mind (not read the whole 9 pages in this thread, apologies for duplicates)...

--Fireplace poker
--maglight  (big one)
--cast iron frying pan

I'm thinking more blunt than sharp for a quicker knockdown.    Sure a good knife or machete work too, but when we discuss home defense firearms, don't we imply we want the quickest "one shot stop" with the least amount of collateral damage?   Ballbat...tried and true.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: PistolWhipped on July 03, 2013, 08:35:14 PM
^ Bingo.

Besides, one can whip one of those smaller aluminum bats around pretty damn quick.  And anyone who would argue against a bat has never been seriously or repeatedly hit with a bat.

Just keep swinging, just keep swinging, swinging, swinging swinging, swinging . . .

Still, a gun is probably a better bet, but if that's a no-no, the old Louisville Slugger is a classic.  I've got a steel one that's probably older than me leaned in the corner.  Might add a light aluminum one in the Jeep.  That and and a cheap .38 could probably be done under $300.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: soupbone on July 07, 2013, 06:32:11 PM
Again, "Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun". If you live in a city, state, Provence, etc. that will not allow you to own a gun, there will probably be restrictions on 'gun-like objects' [airguns, paintball guns, etc.] and some classes of weapons in general such as swords:

1] Know your local laws as to what is permitted, and what the acceptable 'rules of engagement' are.
2] Look for things with little apparent weapons potential - a stout cane or walking stick with a metal ferrule and handle, or, as mentioned, ye olde cast iron frying pan, for example. A replacement hickory rake or hoe handle with a metal ferrule could also be used - [think bayonet thrusts, blocks and counterstrokes] stuff that would normally be found in a house. "He came through the door at me so I just grabbed it...."
3] If Defense Spray - MACE, etc., is a controlled item, think about Dog Repellent, similar to what the Post Office uses. Avoid - at all cost - home made Chemical Weaponry. You will have a hard time explaining how the intruder ended up with a face full of Phosgene in court later.
4] Think about a police baton, nightstick, whatever you call them. Training material is available, and a PR-24 can be a nasty surprise to a miscreant. Personally, I keep a GI tent peg, marked "Souvenir of Annual Training 198X - Dismal Seepage Air Force Station" by my door. Hey, it's a souvenir - I never INTENDED to use it as a weapon...
5] Whatever you decide to use - practice with it. Learn some human physiology - where the weak points on the body are and how best to exploit them.

No-Gun defense has some advantages though - it forces the intruder to physically come to you, strengthening your 'self defense' claim. It also gives you more time to decide your best course of action - "Wow - it really IS your neighbor's drunken brother-in-law who mistook your house for his. I'll shoo him next door rather than poke, stab or brain him...." A gun doesn't give you that option.

People have defended themselves successfully for tens of thousands of years before the advent of firearms. Maybe not as effectively as with guns, but still, they were far from helpless. The most potent weapon is the fighter holding the chosen or available tool.

soupbone
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: blademan on July 15, 2013, 09:36:02 AM
Soupy,
 +1. That was my point too. If you are living in a place or situation where you can have whatever, then you probably do and they probably won't get their knickers in a twist if you use wasp spray on someone who was trying to force their way in your house. If you live in a more restrictive area, then they probably will. Either way its best to have the best and most effective tool at hand and have knowledge and training on how to use it. Just like Masaad Ayoob said in the show, there is going to be an aftermath to any home invasion or self defense situation.
 You plan for the aftermath before because you can't think about it during and its too late afterward.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: inbox485 on July 15, 2013, 11:40:01 AM
To recap all this, I think the over riding thing is being willing to cause body breaking damage with whatever you can get your hands on and do so with reckless abandon. There is something I see all the time in challenging physical courses, and after a while I learned to recognize it in security footage of violent incidences. People generally give up before they fail. You see a shift in their eyes, and they let go, or they realize they don't have the resolve to actually break a person that wants to kill them, then they drop. Don't be that guy, and your odds go way up.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Sushidog on July 15, 2013, 02:46:02 PM
Being that I have been a sushi chef for 20 years, I have a box of very sharp and tough sushi knives at my disposal that could be pressed into service if needed. Needless to say, I am highly experienced in their use. My first choice for a throwing knife would be a thick bladed Deba Hocho (a very heavy fish cleaning knife) it will easily cut through a 1" diameter bone without hacking, just slicing. It is a high quality hand forged blade made by Masamoto (samurai sword makers) layered from Japanese white steel. Once I accidentally cut myself with it while slicing an avocado. The back of the knife stuck into the palm of my left hand. It got stuck and had to pry it out of the bone. Luckily I was cutting something soft. Had I applied moderate pressure and it would have cut my thumb clean off. I have two of these.

If a closer range encounter is needed, then I would grab a Yanagiba in each hand. These have 1 shaku (12 inches) long, pointy willow-leaf shaped, scalpel sharp blades. My finest Yanagi hocho is made by the same family that has been forging samurai swords for the Japanese imperial family for the last 800 years. It is made of the finest Japanese blue steel (the best), folded and layered so the blade is not only Rockwell 67C hardened, but it is very durable as well. Needless to say, it set me back $1,300 about 15 years ago. The plus side of using such an apparently innocuous, yet deadly weapon for self defense is that I can always tell the police I just grabbed one of my "kitchen knives I use for work" because it happened to be handy. I was just dumb luck that I was able to make tasty sushi out of my adversary.  ;)

Chip
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: PistolWhipped on July 19, 2013, 11:07:07 AM
From another chef and knife enthusiast, very nice blades man. 

I would hate to use them defensively through, it'd be a damned waste sending steel that fine to the evidence locker.  Where it will go.  And likely get beaten up and stored poorly.

I don't care who he is, he's not worth that.  Baseball bat.  Or a few "cheap" throwaway kitchen knives.  That way you don't lose your good knives if worse comes to worst.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: blademan on July 19, 2013, 11:45:08 PM
I also use blades in my profession. I have a very nice set of Mercer cutlery and a 10" victorinox breaking knife. Among the mercers is a 6" boning knife, a 8" forged chef's knife that from painful stupid experience I know will cut humans (myself), a 8' serrated bread knife, two pairing knives, and the money knife in the bunch is the 11" ham slicer. Its an 11" scalpel.
  I realize this is silliness, but with all that at my disposal, I could have an intruder dead, broken down, chopped, steaked, boned out, sliced, diced, and garnished by the time the sirens came on.
 Seriously, they are in a very cumbersome folding case and I would never be able to get them out fast enough. For that I have clubs, myself, and a Marble's machete. And a few other things.
   Its been a good thread. Good times.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: JarKodiak on July 22, 2013, 11:05:42 AM
I'd say taser.  The problem with a sword aside from trying to swing that around possibly in a cramped hallway (even a valid argument for rifle vs pistol), is that you're gonna get someone's blood all over you.  plus you still have to close a lot more distance.  If I was going to choose a blade, I'd probably go with something like a kukri. Plenty of lethality, but I can use it inside of cramped quarters.    Other obvious choice is a dog.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Bennington1776 on December 28, 2013, 05:56:05 PM
Not being able to have a firearm, parish the thought.

My first thought is, well, it depends on the person using the weapon.  I would recommend something different for someone who is 80 and frail then someone who is in fighting shape and in their twenties.  My recommendation would also change depending on how else lives in the home, spouse, children - their ages and pets.

A determined criminal can fight through a chemical agent and there is the risk of self contamination.
Tazer is a good option, they have twin red dots that indicate where the barbs should deploy to.  But, they are ineffective on thick clothing or even those on certain narcotics or medical conditions (excited delirium).
Stun gun is also a good choice but its effective range is in the intimate space and therefore you better have a back up plan.
Batons, bats, swards and ax's have a standard effective range of 3-6 feet.  Unless you are in the center of a room follow up or combination blows could be problematic with walls and furniture impeding the swing path.

What ever the choice if you miss and the attacker has not run away but is now super pissed now what.

Remember the best defense is a good offence and it requires speed surprise and shock action to be most effective.  Overwhelm as many as your foes senses as possible.  Impede their sight, hearing and cause them pain to take the fight completely out of them.

So with all of that being said I would choose a 16" collapsible baton.  Thrust into the gut or sternum followed by an upper cut to the jar or throat forward and back hand swings to large mussel groups are very effective.

What ever your choice it is imperative to train train train and to know your local laws about self defense.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: never_retreat on December 28, 2013, 06:07:32 PM
How about a rock hammer? Less likely to get stuck in the perp than an Ax. I was thinking about adding one to the truck stash.
(http://www.estwing.com/img/products/g_rp_pointed_long.jpg)
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Marinesg1012 on December 29, 2013, 12:26:55 AM
I don't know if it was mentioned but a protection trained dog is the next best thing to a firearm, and is a perfect addition to a home/personal protection system. They may not be for everyone but my dog is trained and a member of the family, he goes every where my wife goes (for the most part) and he has probably saved them from at least one if not several encounters.

If you have the resources I would definitely suggest getting and training a dog for protection work. (notice I didnt say police dog, while there is some overlaps in training the scenarios should be based more on self defense instead of apprehension)
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Bolomark on December 29, 2013, 06:00:48 AM
one hit.
http://www.kultofathena.com/maces.asp
let history be your guide.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: chickchoc on December 29, 2013, 06:39:58 PM
Re protection dog --

There's another thread that thoroughly discusses the foolhardiness of improperly training a dog for protection.  A professionally trained protection dog is a working animal.  An amateur-trained protection dog is a ticking bomb with a faulty timer.

Just sayin'
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: Marinesg1012 on December 29, 2013, 07:46:24 PM
Re protection dog --

There's another thread that thoroughly discusses the foolhardiness of improperly training a dog for protection.  A professionally trained protection dog is a working animal.  An amateur-trained protection dog is a ticking bomb with a faulty timer.

Just sayin'

Just like being improperly trained with any of the weapons listed in this thread or a firearm. If you have a tool you should know how to use it.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: 802Shawn on March 30, 2014, 07:40:16 AM
Take a look a paint ball guns. You can get pepper balls (they are like pepper spray), you can also buy solid paint balls made for breaking glass and windshields for police. Tipman just released a paintball pistol (clip fed) that doesn't use the c02 cartridge until you pull the trigger. So it can sit for a long time without the worry of having no air left in the pistol. Just a couple of ideas.
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: 802Shawn on March 30, 2014, 09:36:22 AM
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rap4.com%2Fpaintball%2Fimages%2FPistol%2FTippmann_TPX_Paintball_Pistol_LF.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rap4.com%2Fstore%2Fpaintball%2Ftpx-pistol-c-1138.html&h=361&w=501&tbnid=pjsarW-uWUuLcM%3A&zoom=1&docid=NYcWpE84oGvNcM&ei=oTk4U9nTF-PO0gGSs4BY&tbm=isch&ved=0CF4QhBwwAw&iact=rc&dur=1&page=1&start=0&ndsp=26 :P
Title: Re: Best Home Defense Weapon if No Gun
Post by: FarmerJim on June 27, 2014, 10:20:37 PM
I keep a Sjambok and A can of Sabre Red within 5 feet of the bed. I figure "Spray then beat."