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Survivalism & Self Sufficiency Topics => Transportation => Topic started by: AZDuffman on October 20, 2014, 05:30:35 PM

Title: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
Post by: AZDuffman on October 20, 2014, 05:30:35 PM
I have a birthday coming up and my parents are asking the usual "whadder ya want?"  As I build my preps I decided I should really have a battery-charger for my car.  Last year when it was really cold for the first time in 20+ years the car did not want to start from the cold.  Turned fine, but for the first time since I had a carb and not fuel-injection I could just hear the thing huffing.  I stopped turning the engine because I didn't want to kill the battery as I knew I had no charger.

That would be it, but last week I again saw how easy jump-starters are to bring out when we put a boat in storage.  I thought maybe that would be a way to go.  But I was told jump-starters have a "shelf life" and after a few years need to be replaced.  It will cost more as well, OTOH it is instant.

Any thoughts I missed?  One thing to say is I have and know how to use jumper cables if needed, which in my life they have more than once, so "know-how" is not the deciding factor.
Title: Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
Post by: fritz_monroe on October 20, 2014, 06:02:16 PM
I like the idea of the jump packs, but I'd bet that the majority are not kept charged.  It's worthless if it doesn't have a charge.  The shelf life is because of the battery.  Just like any battery, the jump pack battery does have a finite shelf life.

I will eventually have a jump pack in each of my cars, but until then good jumper cables live in each trunk.

Personally, I would rather have a good charger first.
Title: Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
Post by: nelson96 on October 20, 2014, 06:06:34 PM
I like the idea of the jump packs, but I'd bet that the majority are not kept charged.  It's worthless if it doesn't have a charge.  The shelf life is because of the battery.  Just like any battery, the jump pack battery does have a finite shelf life.

I will eventually have a jump pack in each of my cars, but until then good jumper cables live in each trunk.

Personally, I would rather have a good charger first.

100% agree
Title: Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
Post by: Crazy Fox on October 21, 2014, 09:46:04 AM
I wish I had experience to share about the portable jump starters, but I have only heard that they can be junk, especially if they stay on the store shelf for a while before getting sold.
 
Therefore my vote is a battery charger.

Next year, how about a portable tire pump?
Title: Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
Post by: Carl on October 21, 2014, 09:51:48 AM
Get a good ,3 stage charger,like SCHUMACHER.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_c_0_5?url=search-alias%3Dautomotive&field-keywords=schumacher+battery+charger&sprefix=schum%2Csporting%2C659&rh=n%3A15684181%2Ck%3Aschumacher+battery+charger&ajr=2
Title: Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
Post by: r_w on October 21, 2014, 10:16:20 AM
+1 on a 3 stage smart charger. 

jump packs are handy, but they only last a couple years until the battery goes.  A better $$ spend is a smart charger and then an odyssey motorcycle battery with jumper cables.  The little odyssey has enough power to RUN most cars, will hold a charge MUCH longer than the cheap gel cells in the jump packs, and lasts 10+ years if you take care of it. 

Title: Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
Post by: ericksonrs on October 22, 2014, 10:54:58 AM
While I agree with the others that a charger is great to have, I have two of the jump starters, one in each car, and use them all the time.

I wish I could find one of the brands to buy again, but we have had it over 5 years and it still works like a champ. 

I bought a stanley one from home depot two or three years ago and it is still going strong.

I lend it out all the time and can stop anytime I need to to help others.  I've even used it as a phone charger in a tent camping as they both have 12v outputs.

Use it camping to blow up the air mattress, etc, etc, etc.

If you have the option its worth having one, rolling the dice with the battery.

This is the one I bought most recently, not as good as my other one of unknown origin, but worth the 80$ even if you have to rebuy every 3 or 4 years IMO.

http://www.amazon.com/Stanley-J5C09-Starter-Built-Compressor/dp/B002X6VXL4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1413996783&sr=8-1&keywords=stanley+car+charger
Title: Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
Post by: ericksonrs on October 22, 2014, 10:59:03 AM
BTW I do have jumper cables in each car as well.  I do pull the jump packs out every couple months and leave them overnight on the charger.  Pretty simple.
Title: Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
Post by: endurance on October 22, 2014, 01:36:11 PM
I got one of the new lithium ion jump boxes that fits in the glove box, also works to charge my laptop and my cell phone. Charges on either 12vdc or 120 household current. To me, you just can't beat that versatility.
Title: Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
Post by: bradleypaul75 on October 23, 2014, 02:25:15 AM
I got one of the new lithium ion jump boxes that fits in the glove box, also works to charge my laptop and my cell phone. Charges on either 12vdc or 120 household current. To me, you just can't beat that versatility.

Which brand did you get? Do you have a link?
Title: Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
Post by: endurance on October 23, 2014, 06:02:29 AM
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00D42AFS8/ (http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00D42AFS8/)
This is the model I have.
Title: Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
Post by: NWPilgrim on October 23, 2014, 03:24:39 PM
I tried the NiCad vesion of the jump starters and was not happy, same with the motorcycle battery type. Only the wet cell battery holds a charge over several months, the Li-ion type be fine as far as holding charge.  BUT...

Even when a battery holds a charge the small ones are often not up to the task of starting with a totally dead (headlights left on) battery.  The small batteries just don't have the capacity, so I would revert to using jumper cables to start from a running vehicle.

I eventually decided the best utility was to have heavy duty Marine type batteries with a good charger.  This way it does double duty as power outage backup with an inverter, as well as mobile/home jump starting.  The only downside is I don't have an extra battery with me when I am out and about, but 90% of the time there are other vehicles or I can call for wife to come help with jumper cables. At home a Marine battery is heavy but easy to use for jump starts and has massive capacity for hard starts.

Overall I think the battery charger will give you many more years of service for both car and home use, especially if your primary car starting issue is cold starts at home.  If primary issue was dead battery in remote location then the jump battery would be a better idea.

The mention of Lithium batteries makes me think of all the 18V cordless tool batteries I have.  Anyone know of anything that makes use of cordless tool batteries to directly power USB, cigarette lighter plug, AA charger, etc?  Not to jump a car battery but for other low wattage 12v jobs.
Title: Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
Post by: JakeG on October 23, 2014, 06:56:32 PM
I look at this a few different ways.

First off, I've used jumper boxes commercially for approximately 13 years and have never had one go bad due to a manufacturer defect. The few that have met their demise were due to user error and/or neglect. The brand of jumper box has always been JNC. I can take a pic of our latest 3 year old version. It holds a charge for about 6 weeks with 1-5 daily uses. It would last close to 3 months of the same usage when we had two jump boxes. Please note that most uses are on vehicles with either a completely dead battery, or NO BATTERY whatsoever.

Next, if a battery charger is the decision, please make sure it has the Start Assist function. Limitations are you still have to rely on an external power source to use the charger or an individual willing to jump start you.

Lastly, I would consider a compact deep cycle battery (or larger depending on space) mounted in your trunk + a battery charger and jumper cables long enough to reach from the hood to the trunk. Charge the battery every 1-2 months OR have it charging while driving. These batteries can be had for ~$50 at Tractor/Farm supply stores. We use them on BBQ pit trailers to run the radio, speakers and lights for a weekend.

Good luck and let us know what you end up with!
Title: Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
Post by: Perfesser on October 24, 2014, 09:53:23 AM
I've had the same portable jumper for about 5 years, with an inverter and compressor built in. Incredibly handy for me as there's no electricity at the BOL.
Every weekend I go this box runs 2 CFL lights off the inverter.
Just last weekend the inverter died but the battery is still good and I can plug a small inverter into the 12v outlet. Compressor is very handy as it has it's own power source built in.


Title: Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
Post by: keebler on December 25, 2014, 06:57:05 AM
I have 4 harbor freight Jump starts on sale $39.99 ?   Main problem with them is the small inside Charger .I can buy replacement battery from (attbattery) $30.oo just got (2) last week to replace the 18 amp 12 Volt one inside them.
had a expensive Firestone brand one  it did the same thing.
I have jumper cables in all my vehicles too. but jumping some ones car it's easy to fry a alternator...Id rather use a "Jumpstart unit"
my 2 cents
Keebler.
Title: Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
Post by: FreeLancer on December 26, 2014, 01:30:45 AM
I've been happy with the three DieHard jump packs I've had. They run off an 18 ah SLA and have two inverter 110v outlets, two 12v, and a USB.  I charge them at least once a month using a Noco Genius 1amp charger, instead of the wallwort it comes with, and they work well.  I've used them to jump other people more than myself and it couldn't be easier, certainly better than jumper cables, although I still carry those, too. One time I went to use my wife's and she'd shoved the thing into a corner of the trunk and inadvertently switched on the light and killed the battery for good, so you got to watch for things like that.

My wife hates them and doesn't see the upside to it taking up space in the trunk, so I just bought her the new little lithium unit that Noco came out with and so far have been amazed at the power out of such a small package, plus I don't have to worry about charging as frequently. We'll see how long it lasts.
Title: Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
Post by: TLBones on December 27, 2014, 07:09:59 AM
My 0.02....

I've had 4 jump starters over the years.  One lasted about a year, one lasted about 5.    As others have stated, they have a shelf life no matter how careful you are taking care of them.     I don't plan on buying another of the traditional jump starters, but will probably go in this direction:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00D42AFS8/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=AORVR7PL23VX&coliid=I3TJT7T9EICVGM

(this is just an example of the type I'm talking about, I'm not recommendin this particular one)

 These smaller types seem to be gaining in popularity due to thier size.  I've seen them in HD and Lowes recently.  I think the Li batteries are probably a better way to go than they traditional lead-acid jump starters.    Some are rather small and not powerful, but I think more of these will come to market and they wil eventually become more powerful and cheaper.
Title: Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
Post by: Carl on December 27, 2014, 07:30:18 AM
My experience with JUMP BATTERIES is such that I was really not able to start an auto with a dead battery. Most are a 12 Amp battery and you connect it for ,say 10 minutes and pray that the 'dead' battery takes enough charge from a battery that is 1/4 it's size to start the vehicle. I mostly used mine as a power supply for Radio/cell phone charger and as a "pet" that needed my attention each week in order to stay 'alive'.
  The average Jump Box in my possession lasted 3 to 5 years , no matter how good ,or bad,I kept up with maintenance.

If you get one...get one with the 18 Amp battery and learn how to use it.

Jump Box cost $40 t0 $100 PLUS and has limited life.

Schumacher 3 stage charger $40 , add an INVERTER for safe auto to auto CHARGING $40 , Jumper cables $40 ...LASTS FOR YEARS.
Title: Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
Post by: endurance on December 27, 2014, 08:19:57 AM
I'm grateful for this thread because I've had a number of jumpboxes that used to kick butt, but have lost their umph. Now I understand they're just a medium sized SLA inside that I can replace. That rocks.  I will probably get another lithium for my wife, but my plan now is to fix my old SLA jump boxes and donate them to the fire Dept.  I've been pushing for a jump box on our wildland trucks for years, now I can fix the problem without bureaucracy.
Title: Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
Post by: d3nni5 on December 27, 2014, 08:46:30 AM
I have burnt up two of these All-in-One compressors.   My truck tires ask for 80 psi, and those little units just can't do it.   It's nice for the jump pack, but I've honestly never had to use it.  I'm starting to look at good chargers now.
Title: Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
Post by: Carl on December 27, 2014, 08:57:56 AM
I have burnt up two of these All-in-One compressors.   My truck tires ask for 80 psi, and those little units just can't do it.   It's nice for the jump pack, but I've honestly never had to use it.  I'm starting to look at good chargers now.

Yes ,but they can add enough air to get you to a good place to fix,or change ,the tire.A slightly better 12 volt compressor can be had, at a price. about $40 and up. Carry a tubeless PLUG KIT TOO and you can keep going and going.

http://www.amazon.com/Viair-00073-Heavy-Portable-Compressor/dp/B0012WHBSO/ref=sr_1_1?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1419695634&sr=1-1&keywords=12v+air+compressor

Title: Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
Post by: nelson96 on December 27, 2014, 09:18:22 AM
I have no personal experience, but was told by someone I ride with on occasion that this one works well.  He uses it on his 4X4.

http://www.amazon.com/Industries-MV50-SuperFlow-High-Volume-Compressor/dp/B000BM8RT8/ref=sr_1_1?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1419696878&sr=1-1&keywords=portable+industrial+air+compressor
Title: Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
Post by: Carl on December 27, 2014, 09:20:42 AM
I have no personal experience, but was told by someone I ride with on occasion that this one works well.  He uses it on his 4X4.

http://www.amazon.com/Industries-MV50-SuperFlow-High-Volume-Compressor/dp/B000BM8RT8/ref=sr_1_1?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1419696878&sr=1-1&keywords=portable+industrial+air+compressor

I agree that looks VERY GOOD and at 2 1/2 minutes to inflate an average tire ,it pretty high volume too.
Title: Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
Post by: Bonnieblue2A on December 27, 2014, 09:36:01 AM
I recently purchased this Booster Pac power pack in the 900 amp peak:

http://www.cabelas.com/product/CLORE-JUMPSTARTERS/1841221.uts?productVariantId=3862788&srccode=cii_328768002&cpncode=38-15569783-2&WT.tsrc=CSE&WT.mc_id=BingPLA&WT.z_mc_id1=03885892&rid=20

It worked well to jump start my 2002 SUV.  Better than the Schumacher trickle charger and better than the Wagen I had.   The Wagen lost the ability to hold a charge after 2 yrs.  It had lots of bells and whistles like a radio, tire pump, etc... .   This Booster Pac power pack is single function and good at what it was designed to do.
Title: Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
Post by: Smurf Hunter on December 27, 2014, 10:56:48 AM
As Carl suggested, if you have other 12volt rechargeable needs beyond automotive, spending $30 for this is a no-brainer.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/711axRLs98L._SL1500_.jpg)

This model is nearly idiot proof. Even warns if you cross the positive/negative (red/black) wires incorrectly.
Title: Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
Post by: d3nni5 on December 27, 2014, 11:13:58 AM
Carry a tubeless PLUG KIT TOO and you can keep going and going.


Yup, do this already.   Good prep for cheap.
Title: Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
Post by: FreeLancer on December 27, 2014, 01:08:37 PM
This is a picture of my DieHard unit:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41by747uaML.jpg)

This is the 18ah SLA it runs off of, that's easily user replaceable:

(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/ODc1WDEwMjQ=/z/Q7QAAMXQh8NTeh30/$_35.JPG)

This is the lithium unit my wife's going to be carrying around now, instead.  Amazing amount of power from such a small package.

(http://ww1.prweb.com/prfiles/2014/09/02/12139628/gI_89198_1500x1500_GB30_kit2.png)
Title: Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
Post by: fritz_monroe on December 27, 2014, 02:26:07 PM
Glad to see the more recent posts.  I didn't know that these Lithium Jump Starters existed.  I'll be looking into these for a possible future purchase.
Title: Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
Post by: endurance on December 27, 2014, 02:51:49 PM
I'm sad to see the price climbing so quickly on them. I didn't buy mine that long ago for $99. The same model is now $149.
Title: Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
Post by: chad on December 27, 2014, 03:28:47 PM
I also have had no long-term success with the portable jump starters, I ended up buying a battery that is a little smaller then what's in the car and keep it in the trunk, I have it wired so it charges as I drive.

Almost forgot, for it to save your bum if your main battery dies your backup needs to be isolated, I used a cheap diode.
Title: Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
Post by: Carl on December 27, 2014, 03:58:38 PM
My first attempt at PHOTOs,this is my JUMP BOX with TWO Optima Yellow top 55 Amp hour batteries and a 1600 watt Xantrex inverter. It has a charger and jumper cables inside with the two batteries and runs my fridge for 3 hours run time without outside help from solar or auto alternator...jumpstarts most any vehicle too.It will charge a cell phone a BUNCH OF TIMES TOO!

(http://i1167.photobucket.com/albums/q639/kb5wmy/1600_Watt_Portable_zpsa8767266.jpg) (http://s1167.photobucket.com/user/kb5wmy/media/1600_Watt_Portable_zpsa8767266.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
Post by: keebler on December 27, 2014, 05:15:13 PM
I go camping up in my field a lot---set the Jump start on the ground---I have a 13 watt CFL lamp  off it---it last all weekend (use at Night).
worth it to me.
Title: Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
Post by: Greekman on December 28, 2014, 10:52:54 AM
Schumacher 3 stage charger $40 , add an INVERTER for safe auto to auto CHARGING $40 , Jumper cables $40 ...LASTS FOR YEARS.

Carl would you mind explaining the inverter part?
You use the inverter to make 110V and then the 3 stage charger to charge the dead battery?
Title: Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
Post by: Carl on December 28, 2014, 12:36:53 PM
Carl would you mind explaining the inverter part?
You use the inverter to make 110V and then the 3 stage charger to charge the dead battery?

I use the inverter for many things besides running the 3 stage charger (like a work light). The charger prevents my battery or alternator from damage and only needs about 10 minutes to charge a 'dead' battery enough to start a disabled auto....why risk damage /battery explosions /alternator being burned up just to help someone. I also get a warning if the 'dead' battery is damaged due to the smart electronics of the 3 stage charger...The inverter,charger,work light ALL HAVE MULTIPLE USES and I protect MY VEHICLE . I use what I have and try to keep what I have ...may not be the BEST WAY,but it is MY WAY.

These days ,with all of the electronics in an auto...I just don't like the traditional jumper cables and the exposing my vehicle to damage.
Title: Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
Post by: TNSurvivor on December 28, 2014, 05:03:43 PM
I have a jump starter pack that i used in the winter while living in MN when i would have to travel for work.  There were a couple of occasions when i had a week trip during a particularly cold snap and i needed to jump start the car.  It didn't work either time.  It didn't have enough power to get the car going.  Thank goodness for AAA!
Title: Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
Post by: Carl on December 28, 2014, 05:12:06 PM
I have a jump starter pack that i used in the winter while living in MN when i would have to travel for work.  There were a couple of occasions when i had a week trip during a particularly cold snap and i needed to jump start the car.  It didn't work either time.  It didn't have enough power to get the car going.  Thank goodness for AAA!

Jump starters actually can work if they are well charged and connected for several minutes to the weak battery to charge it a bit,then,if you are lucky,you get one good shot at starting...but if the weak battery has a bad cell or other problem...use the jump battery to charge your cell phone to call for help. ::)
Title: Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
Post by: Greekman on December 29, 2014, 12:35:13 AM
I use the inverter for many things besides running the 3 stage charger (like a work light). The charger prevents my battery or alternator from damage and only needs about 10 minutes to charge a 'dead' battery enough to start a disabled auto....why risk damage /battery explosions /alternator being burned up just to help someone. I also get a warning if the 'dead' battery is damaged due to the smart electronics of the 3 stage charger...The inverter,charger,work light ALL HAVE MULTIPLE USES and I protect MY VEHICLE . I use what I have and try to keep what I have ...may not be the BEST WAY,but it is MY WAY.

These days ,with all of the electronics in an auto...I just don't like the traditional jumper cables and the exposing my vehicle to damage.
that being said, isn't there a 12V to 12V charger that will do the same job in powerign a dead battery?
Title: Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
Post by: Carl on December 29, 2014, 04:55:10 AM
Yes,you can use jumper cables or a cigarette lighter to cigarette lighter adapter ,but you need HIGHER than 12 volts to actually CHARGE a battery and this is why I have chosen a good ,3 stage charger and inverter ....also because I can be up to 100 feet from my auto and still charge a battery(do that with jumper cables) I also use the inverter to power my HAM radio ,through it's power supply (also fans and lights)when operating as portable or in emergency and I am a bit weakened and prefer NOT to need to carry a heavy battery.

Jumper cables require you to be close to the other vehicle and expose yourself to possible battery explosion ,damage to YOUR VEHICLE etc.

The lighter-adapter/charger actually charges ,but with very LOW CURRENT and takes a good bit of time.

A 3 stage charger will ALERT YOU TO A DAMAGED BATTERY,allow 100 feet plus distance from your vehicle,and actually CHARGES at about 25% of a typical battery capacity and often allows the stranded vehicle to start within 10 to 15 minutes.

These are things that I already HAVE and USE for other situations...It allows a great flexibility of options that I enjoy using (no more flashlight in the teeth,I use a full size work light)

I just tell you what I do that works for me ...not necessarily what is BEST.
Title: Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
Post by: endurance on December 29, 2014, 08:51:26 AM
This is one reason I think these smaller lithium units punch harder than their weight class for amperage, they're mostly 18v units. Mine also can recharge my laptop battery about once and charge my phone four times.
Title: Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
Post by: Bubafat on December 29, 2014, 08:58:27 PM
I would be very hesitant about relying on those tiny lithium ion jump starters, especially if you drive anything but a small car.  I ran the numbers once and the C-rate required to jump a car from a battery so small is obscenely huge almost impossibly huge.  Charge your phone with it, but don't rely on it to jump your car/truck/van/SUV.
Title: Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
Post by: endurance on December 29, 2014, 09:09:27 PM
I would be very hesitant about relying on those tiny lithium ion jump starters, especially if you drive anything but a small car.  I ran the numbers once and the C-rate required to jump a car from a battery so small is obscenely huge almost impossibly huge.  Charge your phone with it, but don't rely on it to jump your car/truck/van/SUV.
Another bonus to driving a car with a 2L engine. ;)
Title: Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
Post by: Bubafat on December 29, 2014, 09:20:34 PM
Have you tried using it for its intended use (jumping a dead car)? 
Title: Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
Post by: FreeLancer on December 30, 2014, 01:16:11 AM
Have you tried using it for its intended use (jumping a dead car)?

No personal experience, yet, but there's a bunch of YouTube vids like this one that appear legit: http://youtu.be/1qCFYyBmKfc (http://youtu.be/1qCFYyBmKfc)
Title: Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
Post by: Greekman on December 31, 2014, 01:55:54 AM
I am in a real mood for making things...
So do you think a 7Ah SLA battery with proper wiring can jump start a 1.3L car?
It keep the bettery maintained at home, as a backup power option to my handheld radio

It is a quite lower than the 12Ah that jump starters use, but the engine is somewhat proportionally smaller
Title: Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
Post by: Carl on December 31, 2014, 05:15:45 AM
If the car and battery are in good working order and not damaged...maybe..
But often jumper cables transferring 50 to 100 or more amps are not enough.
I have used a "D" cell pack of TWELVE "D"cell 8 Amp hour  rechargeable cells ,
that ran a Ham radio of mine,to jump start a car,,,but it does not work every time.
Title: Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
Post by: Greekman on December 31, 2014, 05:32:12 AM
I think i will go frward amking it....materials are in hand and are small enough to fit in my kit...
Now where do I find a car with dead battery? LOL
Title: Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
Post by: Carl on December 31, 2014, 05:41:39 AM
I think i will go frward amking it....materials are in hand and are small enough to fit in my kit...
Now where do I find a car with dead battery? LOL

Use good cables and let the small battery stay connected to the weak battery (with ALL auto electrics OFF) for a few (5) minutes or so and you have a shot that you will get one good crank out of it...the battery is still good for other projects while having the 'jump' option.
Title: Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
Post by: endurance on December 31, 2014, 08:05:17 AM
I am in a real mood for making things...
So do you think a 7Ah SLA battery with proper wiring can jump start a 1.3L car?
It keep the bettery maintained at home, as a backup power option to my handheld radio

It is a quite lower than the 12Ah that jump starters use, but the engine is somewhat proportionally smaller
I like where this is going. I have similar questions and all my googling led nowhere. Most of the Yahoo! and Ask dot com answers were wildass guesses at best since most didn't even talk about the combination of minimum voltage and minimum amperage to make a starter engage. Since some of the lithium jump boxes out there are as small as 12ah and some are saying these are pretty marginal for very dead batteries or larger, hard starting vehicles, I think your 7ah experiment will be very close with your small motor. You also have the benefit of warmer temperatures since cold batteries produce less power.

On the other hand, the lithium chemistry is higher voltage, which works in it's favor and the lithium chemistry also works better than lead acid in the cold. In any case, be smart and shield yourself when trying this out. I'm not without concerns with a sealed lead acid getting an extreme amperage draw and then a strong pulse of amperage after it starts. I wouldn't rule out explosion as a possibility.
Title: Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
Post by: Carl on December 31, 2014, 08:28:25 AM
But ,in looking at various Lithium Jump Batteries ,I see the average Jump battery is 18 volts at 3 AMP hours....and still relies that the battery is only weak and not damaged and that the vehicle is in good repair so that your chance of success is fair.

Doing some math,I see a 100 amp starter for 10 seconds actually needs 100 amps divided by 6 (10 sec to 1 min) is about 17 amp minute...divided by 60 min/hour equals about 1/4 Amp Hour for a cranking....yep it can work...even with a tiny lithium booster battery...

Remember that you are charging your weak battery ( hook up for a few seconds or minutes) and not cranking your auto with the tiny lithium cell...this is why my "D" cell jumper mentioned above actually worked.
Title: Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
Post by: Greekman on December 31, 2014, 09:51:25 AM
yep, you had voltage sag on your favor...but I think the lithiums sag less than the SLAs...
Title: Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
Post by: Bubafat on January 04, 2015, 08:48:14 PM
I am in a real mood for making things...
So do you think a 7Ah SLA battery with proper wiring can jump start a 1.3L car?
It keep the bettery maintained at home, as a backup power option to my handheld radio

It is a quite lower than the 12Ah that jump starters use, but the engine is somewhat proportionally smaller


Jumping a car has VERY little to do with capacity and many due to active surface area.

Most lithium ion jumpers are 18v because they are using cells not rated to sustain 100 amps and thus the voltage dips...big time. Even the highest energy 18650 cell is only rated for 35-40 amps. This to make a battery that could truly handle the amps required to jump a car you'd need 12 of them (4s3p).

If you have one of these tiny jumpers DONT let anyone stand near it when jumping a car. The heat generated could rupture or catch fire to the pack.
Title: Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
Post by: Greekman on January 05, 2015, 03:44:27 AM
Quote
Even the highest energy 18650 cell is only rated for 35-40 amps
nope we are close to 75 amps these days (30-35C peak/surge for 2-2.5Ah batteries)
Title: Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
Post by: Carl on January 05, 2015, 05:52:19 AM
But ,with Lithium Ion jump starters costing over $100...I think the 18 amp hour wet cell powered jump box would have more multiple uses and be the better deal when it is kept maintained by proper charging and use. The 3 ,6 and 12 amp hour lithium cells have only no use history yet. Lithium Ion cells in typical use are only expected to last THREE to FIVE YEARS and this is with proper care and cell degradation during this 3 to 5 year period.

So when Lithium and Gell cell jumpers are compared the ability to start a vehicle and useful life are about the same though PORTABILITY of lithium is better....the ability to use to charge and power other devices for a longer time goes to the gell cell jump box.

Either way you go ,you pay about the same for your battery RENTAL and which one to get boils down to your expectation of use.

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries

For useful life and versatility ,I still think my inverter,extension cord,and charger is safer,longer reaching and capable of many more uses. But I still carry jumper cables too.
Title: Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
Post by: Greekman on January 05, 2015, 01:25:51 PM
yet lithium is the wave of the future......with all this means...

One thing that favors the lithium chemistry is the ability to cope in lower temperatures...

(on the other hand it should not be charged at conditiosn of around 32 deg F)
Title: Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
Post by: FreeLancer on January 11, 2015, 03:20:34 AM
I've now got some real-world experience to report.

While replacing the high-beams on my wife's car today, I noticed that her battery was marginal and, especially since I'd already invested hours into getting all the plastic covers out of the way, decided to put in a new AGM battery, too.  With no battery in the vehicle, I tested my various jump packs and backup storage batteries to see which could start her 3.5L V6 solely on their own power. 


DieHard 18ah jump pack, 22lbs for the entire pack, and 12lbs for the SLA battery alone:  No start with either unit by itself.  But with both units hooked up together it did start easily.  Battery level showed a drop down to 75% capacity when I put them on the charger afterwards.

35ah SLA wheelchair battery, 23lbs:  No start.  Battery level dropped to 50% capacity.

150ah AGM deep-cycle, 97lbs:  Easy start.  Battery registered 100% capacity.

Noco Lithium Genius Boost, 2.6lbs:  Easy start, with just a faint hint of initial hiccup.  The pack still showed 100% capacity afterwards.
Title: Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
Post by: Greekman on January 11, 2015, 05:58:03 AM
good job  :clap:
Title: Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
Post by: FreeLancer on January 11, 2015, 07:20:06 PM
Before the final battery hookup today, I had my wife hook up the Genius Boost on her own and try to start the car with the engine totally cold, as yesterday's test was after two other successful starts with other batteries.  It took two tries, first time it didn't go and she was hooting about how it didn't work, but I had her try again and it started right up. 

I hooked up an amp clamp this time and measured a 250 amp max current flow through the Genius leads.  The unit is rated as being capable of a 400 amp surge and 200 amp sustained current.
Title: Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
Post by: FreeLancer on March 22, 2015, 03:04:02 AM
I wanted to boost the light output on my jump pack to something more useful than the pathetic pair of dome lights it comes with.  I found a cheap Kawell 18W LED light and crimped on Anderson Powerpole connectors to use with an existing 12v to Anderson PP adapter I already had around. 

Hardest part was figuring out the best way to mount the light to the pack.  Then I remembered I had a box of old MTB lights that I could cannibalize, so I removed the handlebar mount from one of them and bolted it to the Kawell's standard mount, making it easy to take on and off as needed with the Velcro strap.

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7622/16259423243_5e8bc656b3.jpg) (https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7622/16259423243_724b4e30b0.jpg) (https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7640/16691802228_b16223d782.jpg)

This was the first time I'd used heat-shrink around both the cable and the Powerpole connectors and it turned out really nice, much better than just a zip tie or heat-shrink around the cable that I'd been doing before.  I love these connectors and try to use them as much as possible with my 12v stuff.
Title: Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
Post by: endurance on March 22, 2015, 06:49:34 AM
Nice!

I had my first test of the lithium starter I got last summer a couple weeks ago.  I had left my dome light on overnight and at 9:30am we got a page for an MVA on the highway.  I jumped in my car and click, no motor movement at all.  I noticed the dim orange glow of the dome light and realized what I'd done.  I wasted no time hooking up the jump box and it started on the first try.  I drove the two minutes to the station, ran the call and had to use it a second time since I hadn't run the car long enough to charge the battery. Again, easy start on the first try.

I hadn't charged the jump box since I tossed it in the glove box over the summer and it was showing four out of five LEDs. Impressive performance from a partial charge.
Title: Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
Post by: machinisttx on March 28, 2015, 07:18:46 PM
Today I bought a new group 31 battery locally for $39.99 plus tax, which is the second one I've bought at this price. They still had a quarter of a pallet left I think, and will probably get more. These batteries have cosmetic defects, but no functional defects. You might do some looking in your area and see what you can come up with. I use mine as a portable jumper and as a battery for my Onan generator or Lincoln welder.

I have seen the standard jump boxes with SLA batteries work, and I've seen them not work. Any of them will have a finite lifespan just like any other battery. If I were going to buy one, I'd buy a high quality Li-ion type that fits in the glove box. They will hold a charge much better than lead acid and can have much higher safe discharge rates.

There isn't much substitute for a good charger either. I have a schumacher charger maintainer that seems to do everything I need it to do. I wish I could find a 120v charger that mimicked an alternator's charge rate/curve.
Title: Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
Post by: Carl on March 28, 2015, 07:48:31 PM
Today I bought a new group 31 battery locally for $39.99 plus tax, which is the second one I've bought at this price. They still had a quarter of a pallet left I think, and will probably get more. These batteries have cosmetic defects, but no functional defects. You might do some looking in your area and see what you can come up with. I use mine as a portable jumper and as a battery for my Onan generator or Lincoln welder.

I have seen the standard jump boxes with SLA batteries work, and I've seen them not work. Any of them will have a finite lifespan just like any other battery. If I were going to buy one, I'd buy a high quality Li-ion type that fits in the glove box. They will hold a charge much better than lead acid and can have much higher safe discharge rates.

There isn't much substitute for a good charger either. I have a schumacher charger maintainer that seems to do everything I need it to do. I wish I could find a 120v charger that mimicked an alternator's charge rate/curve.

It is not recommended to go above C8 or 1/8 the rated AMP HOURS of the battery (typically 125 Amp Hours for Group 31) or about 15 AMPS maximum charge for a brief time...so a big charger would be a waste of money and likely let you damage your batteries as most group 31 will begin to outgas (and boil out electrolyte) at above 6 AMPS.

You already have a great charger ,a faster (higher AMP) charger is really only useful to fast charge and jump vehicles.

Just my opinion after many years of battery use and abuse..

http://www.solar-electric.com/deep-cycle-battery-faq.html#Battery Charging
Title: Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
Post by: Paruria on September 13, 2018, 02:17:53 AM
Sorry for bumping...just my thoughts...
Ok here's the problem with jump packs:

When you have a dead battery and put a jump pack on it, what you're doing is putting another battery in parallel. Two batteries in parallel equalize eventually, and one dead battery in a parallel setup makes the other sag. So what you get, is one dead battery, one good small battery, added up to make one big crappy battery.

The real solution is to carry a battery in a spill proof, insulted, vented box. Remove your car's battery and install your spare if it dies - avoid charging a battery more than 40% drained with the alternator, which is not built to charge substantial amounts. Invest in a solar battery maintainer, but beware it will take months to charge a battery significantly depending on size, it's more of a maintainer.

Pocket size jump packs are just 18650's wired in series - cheap ones are made with cheap quality cells, so you mine as well make your own with protected high amp rate samsungs - but at that point, you mineaswell just buy a spare car battery. 3 18650's = 12.6 v fully charged, 20 amp limit. On a cold day, you need more like 200 amps, plus extra for hesitant startups.

Pocket power x? It's too small. How many 18650's are in there, what type of cells? Yeah, probably POS china cells that can't hold a charge. I really doubt it started 10 busses in a row, I'd like to see video proof. Maybe started 10 busses in a row and the busses low battery did most of the work.. The website is in typical sales scam format, too.
My only problem with it is was that I go skiing somewhere where it can drop to -40F with the wind chill. The car will sit in the parking lot for a few days and I dread not being able to start in case my Blackvue drains the battery. All the chargers I looked at had a warning that they shouldn't be kept inside the vehicle in freezing weather.

A portable one made with lithium batteries would be small enough to carry in my luggage and have enough cold cranking amps to start most passenger cars and SUVs (depends on the model, some are better).

I purchased this one, made by Anker: [EDIT] -Started my 6 cylinder, 3.0L car without any issues twice and then it stopped working completely, wouldn't even turn on.

Then I purchased this one made by Schumacher [EDIT] Works perfectly and has everything I was looking for and more.
Made from lithium iron phosphate. Longer life, safer cells and more charge cycles than lead acid
-400A, 270CCA sufficient for any 4 or 6 cylinder car
Benefits over the Clore Jump n Carry: Smaller size, keeps the charge when sitting idle for longer, LED to tell you the voltage of your car's battery when you attach the clamps, automatic overload protection so it turns off if you don't remove the clamps after starting the car, spark-free
Cons: battery isn't replaceable like the clore unit


[EDIT: delted spam links, banned spammer]
Title: Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
Post by: Carl on September 13, 2018, 05:32:06 AM
  Yea,a typical start the auto cycle requires less than 1 Amp hour so a small pack can 'share' enough power with a good BIG battery to provide the burst required for starting....this assumes the auto's engine and battery are in good condition just somehow weakened .I have NEVER had true success with the 'jump pack' batteries and these new 'pocket pack' batteries are just pushed too hard to survive ,though ,if used exactly as designed....will work....until you destroy them. I relegate the jump pack as more of a portable power supply than a savior and do use them in such a manor. I am glad these  older thoughts float to the surface from time to time as often I ,and others,can benefit for a review of the wisdom of the past.

The Jumper you indicated looks like a good choice for the best portable jump pack for the new generation
Title: Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
Post by: Bubafat on September 13, 2018, 10:12:52 AM
Do a bit more research on batteries in parallel and the impact in amp draw and you'll find it's additive.  Meaning a "dead" battery + a jump start battery can draw the amps of the jump start battery, not the average of the two. 

The Li-ion jump packs are not necessarily designed to jump the car, they dump energy into the dead battery and then it's the dead battery that primarily jumps the car.  This is OK if you just over-drained the battery, but if there's a bad cell in the battery it will not work.  For this reason I'm not a fan of the pocket Li-Ion jumpers but a big fan of the lead acid jumpers. 
Title: Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
Post by: Greekman on September 15, 2018, 03:52:57 AM
Paruria
A protected 18650 battery cannot started a car.  I doubt the built in circuit can allow more than 20amps.
 The build will have to be done with a separate protection board that can handle the hundreds of the cars cranking amps.
Title: Re: Battery Charger or Jump-Starter
Post by: Carl on September 15, 2018, 06:47:27 AM
  If the weak battery can't accumulate some bit of energy from the jump pack then you just aren't going to have success.