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Survivalism & Self Sufficiency Topics => Lady Survivors => Topic started by: Goatdog62 on June 01, 2009, 07:00:48 PM

Title: Thug Avoidance
Post by: Goatdog62 on June 01, 2009, 07:00:48 PM
I'm going to start a series of Personal Security threads. I'm just rattling this off of my head, no notes. Feel free to comment.

This one is oriented towards women but really applies to all. It assumes you are not armed but you do have pepper spray. You do have pepper spray, right? I see NO reason not to. Get the stuff that is in aerosol form and is in at least two million Scoville Heat Units. The smaller the container, the more likely you'll have it with you. Test fire it outside, shake it once a month, and ignore the expiration date.


You have three options to protect yourself from a threat:

Avoid
Evade
Counter


Avoid:
1.  Know your place of work, your residence and anywhere else you frequent. Be familiar with exits and their status (locked/unlocked), light switches, where the phones are, normal noises, etc
2.  Always pay attention to what is happening around you. Sit where you can see people coming and going. What car has pulled up outside? Is that really the meter reader? How come the dog down the street is barking? Who is this guy fidgeting in the lobby?
3.  What are the indicators that things are right or wrong? Why did that guy silently close his car door? Those two guys are staring at the convenience store clerk.
4.  Always have an alternate plan. Change your routes, departure times, arrival times, anything that makes you predictable. Leave escape room around your car at redlights. Always "what if" yourself. What if I someone comes from behind that dumpster?
 
Successful avoidance may never be evident to you. If you weren't attacked today because you drove in on a different route, you'd probably never know it. I won't go into the usual stuff about securing your purses, wearing sensible shoes or avoiding dark areas, alleys, stairwells, etc. Do limit your valuables. Avoid public restrooms in shady places. Stay awake and alert on buses and subways. If you take a taxi, sit up front with the driver (especially if overseas). A dog in/at your residence is a big help, even just as early warning. Install dead bolts.


Evade:
  You sense something is wrong (great example in one of Jacks podcasts about walking down the street with his wife) or;
  You see suspicious activity.
 
You start looking for your escape options.  Conceal your pepper spray in your hand, thumb on the trigger. Walk inside that store instead of towards that group of hoodlums. With a criminal it is better to establish eye contact. This eye contact needs to convey the message "I see you, I know you're up to no good, it won't be as easy as you think, you'll regret it." Criminals want easy targets.
Drive to the nearest police station, fire hall, courthouse, hospital, bank (daytime of course). Any place that you think someone might help you or at least has known surveillance cameras.

Some pre-atttack indicators in a one-on-one confrontation;
Strained voice.
Repeated phrases (verbal commands possibly).
Sweating (no apparent reason).
Mouth breathing (unless he's from West Virginia).
Tightening, clenching jaw.
Weight shifting.
Fist clenching.
Shoulders rolling forward, bending of knees, ducking of chin.
Target glance.
Hand distraction

Multiple Attackers may;
Position themselves relative to each other.
Glance at each other.
Use unusual body language or terminology.


If you didn't avoid and you couldn't evade then:
Counter  

(on foot):
  You are confronted and attack is imminent. Don't just stand there. Move and scream loudly. If cornered, use your weak hand to hold off the attacker while flipping the safe off your pepper spray with your thumb. Keep it in your fist with the nozzle exposed, that way it is harder to knock out of your hand. Spray one or two short blasts into the assailants face, you want to hit mucus membranes. His eyes will slam shut, he'll cough, he'll choke, he won't be happy. Realize that a collateral amount will hit you, but as long as you didn't take a dose in the eyes, you will be okay. Do something simple like a shin rake and foot stomp...it works. Don't wait around to admire your work. Run to safe haven.

(in vehicle): Turn right or left, u-turn, or reverse out, practice that there are techniques for doing this. Don't be afraid to run over the bastard (you better be sure you feel your life is in danger). More drastically, you can ram the rear 20% (preferred) or front 20% of their blocking vehicle and drive thru if blocked in by the bad guys car. Drive into a house or storefront, bail and run out the back door, down the alley, and through the next yard.

Don't stop and don't give up.

There is a whole lot more to this, but I have some stuff to do. I will add more if anyone is interested.

Goatdog
Title: Re: Thug Avoidance
Post by: Buffy on June 01, 2009, 07:10:30 PM
I'm interested.
Title: Re: Thug Avoidance
Post by: Mr. Bill on June 01, 2009, 09:16:39 PM
I'm interested.

Me too.  (At least to pass the info on to my wife.  But it ought to be useful for nerdy non-athletic guys like me too.)

...You do have pepper spray, right? I see NO reason not to. ...

Asthma.  My wife's got a mild case.  Can't risk using a weapon that might possibly incapacitate or kill her.
Title: Re: Thug Avoidance
Post by: Goatdog62 on June 01, 2009, 09:26:20 PM
Me too.  (At least to pass the info on to my wife.  But it ought to be useful for nerdy non-athletic guys like me too.)

Asthma.  My wife's got a mild case.  Can't risk using a weapon that might possibly incapacitate or kill her.


It won't. I used it on over 100 suspects. Well, that's the number that I documented anyway ;D

Several had verifiable asthma. I also teach it on a regular basis, the doc always clears the asthmatic people to get sprayed. Besides, she would only get a whiff of it if she points it in the right direction.

I FIRMLY believe that it is a great equalizer. It works on dogs too.
Title: Re: Thug Avoidance
Post by: mash on June 01, 2009, 09:58:25 PM
Excellent stuff goatdog, keep 'em coming.

Printing this off for the missus and my daughter.
Title: Re: Thug Avoidance
Post by: Goatdog62 on June 01, 2009, 10:03:33 PM
Excellent stuff goatdog, keep 'em coming.

Printing this off for the missus and my daughter.

I'll add more soon. I keep meaning to break loose from the forum for a few days and write more of my book, but you guys have me trapped here!
Title: Re: Thug Avoidance
Post by: The Wilderness on June 01, 2009, 11:03:16 PM
I'll add more soon. I keep meaning to break loose from the forum for a few days and write more of my book, but you guys have me trapped here!

Our evil plan is working  ;)

TW
Title: Re: Thug Avoidance
Post by: Goatdog62 on June 01, 2009, 11:13:06 PM
Tasers
  If you decide to go that route, I don't have an issue with it but most tasers suck. Yeah, they work when in contact with the bad guy, as you hold it on him. As soon as you break contact the thug usually quickly recovers. Then he's pissed off. Pepper spray works for at least 15 minutes (eye blast) and stings for hours. Hell, more than once after a spraying incident, I visited the mens room to do my business and well...watch where you touch yourself. :o Even soap and water doesn't get it all.

Anyway, back to tasers. We did a SWAT call once where the suspect had been shooting out his windows at nothing in particular, but dangerous just the same. After hours of negotiations with this drunk, we weren't getting anywhere. The entry team I was on approached from the #2 corner towards his garage (no windows could see us at this angle). The five of us were fully armed, and armored, but I was designated to carry the M-26 AirTaser as my primary, just in case that was all the force that was necessary. A ruse was used to get him to come outside. He came out the side door, yapping on the phone, and out went the two probes from my M26 at about 12 feet. He immedialtely siezed up and hit the ground hard. The M26 only stayed on 5 seconds and try as we might to get him cuffed we weren't fast enough. As soon as the current stopped flowing he began fighting back like a newly circumsized Brahma. I zapped him again and the 5 second bust was long enough to get him cuffed. He begged me not to do it again. I didn't. There was no reason to.

The point I'm trying to make is this. If you buy a taser, buy a good one. You can't buy an M26 as a civilian. Hell, I can't get one for myself. You can buy a Taser C2. see link;

http://www.taser.com/PRODUCTS/CONSUMERS/Pages/C2.aspx

The Taser C2 works like the M26. It shoots out two prongs (up to 15 feet away) and zaps the ass monkey for 30 seconds! That is enough time to drop the device and run like hell. The company will even replace the unit for free if you use it to prevent a crime. Just file a police report. You don't even have to worry too much about shot placement, any hit on him will bring him down, even if only one prong hits. Each prong penetrates an inch of clothing too. If you are worried about shot placement they even have a laser version.We watched a video where it brings down a full-grown buffalo in less than a second. I stuck one prong of an M26 under my shoelace on my boot and let the other prong dangle. Had my pal turn it on...fell down immediately.

They are down to $199 or so now. Not as small a package as pepper spray, but not as big as a gun. I still recommend you have a gun but realize that gun laws and personal preferences may leave you without that option.

Don't think the handheld stun guns are worthy. I think this Taser C2 or pepper spray is better. This taser will only take out one assailant at a time with the cartridge (unless they are holding hands ;D), but you can hold the exposed contacts from the unit itself onto suspect B and get him too. Also, believe it or not, if you've already pepper sprayed the guy and then decide to tase him there is a chance he will burst into flames as the pepper spray (Oleoresin Capsicum) has accelerants like propane, butane, and alcohol in it. I'm just saying...

Goatdog
Title: Re: Thug Avoidance
Post by: johnnyb_good30 on June 02, 2009, 12:19:15 AM
so what age do u think is the ok age for spray??my girl is 10
Title: Re: Thug Avoidance
Post by: Goatdog62 on June 02, 2009, 04:50:45 AM
I gave some to a responsible 13 year old on an "as needed" basis. In other words, she didn't have it day to day, but if I dropped her off at the movies or something similar I'd give her a can. I train all my children on it though.

Remember, it isn't allowed in 99% of school districts, so don't let her get in trouble. If it was allowed, my kids would have it there.

A 10 year old in my house would get a whistle and some defensive tactics training. YMMV

good question
Goatdog
Title: Re: Thug Avoidance
Post by: SuperUltraJulie on June 02, 2009, 08:00:18 AM
Great thread GD. ...looking forward to reading more!
Title: Re: Thug Avoidance
Post by: homeshow on June 02, 2009, 08:09:12 AM


 believe it or not, if you've already pepper sprayed the guy and then decide to tase him there is a chance he will burst into flames as the pepper spray (Oleoresin Capsicum) has accelerants like propane, butane, and alcohol in it. I'm just saying...

Goatdog

you season the perp then BBQ his ass? ;D    oh yeah +1 definetely
Title: Re: Thug Avoidance
Post by: ColdHaven on June 02, 2009, 08:20:15 AM
+1 Really good info. Can't wait to hear more.

I remember someone posted a link to a site awhile back to a gun that shoots balls of pepper spray-like stuff. Kind of like a paintball gun with bite.
Title: Re: Thug Avoidance
Post by: Goatdog62 on June 02, 2009, 02:59:33 PM
+1 Really good info. Can't wait to hear more.

I remember someone posted a link to a site awhile back to a gun that shoots balls of pepper spray-like stuff. Kind of like a paintball gun with bite.

They shoot pepper balls, they burst on your torso and that rather quickly gets in your nose, mouth, and a small amount in the eyes. Pepper ball guns are cool but they have limited usage in personal security because they are pretty big, you might keep one in your car if you want. They have some use for cops in incapacitating folks who are acting a too squirrelly, the mentally ill and the drunks/druggies. Anytime you have an option other than using a firearm it's a good thing. Shooting the mentally ill always draws an uproar from the masses, even if they are just as deadly as other people.
Title: Re: Thug Avoidance
Post by: Beetle on June 02, 2009, 03:43:44 PM
    Someday I'll have to figure out how to transfer the video of my tasering to the internet. I agree I would rather be tased than OC'd, definitely quicker recovery. Although I can still fight when sprayed whereas I am owned by the Taser.
Title: Re: Thug Avoidance
Post by: Goatdog62 on June 02, 2009, 04:06:40 PM
    Someday I'll have to figure out how to transfer the video of my tasering to the internet. I agree I would rather be tased than OC'd, definitely quicker recovery. Although I can still fight when sprayed whereas I am owned by the Taser.

That's because, as an LEO, you know it is life or death and will worry about the pain in your eyes later. A taser only grips you as long as there is current. For a cop, since we hang around and cuff the guy, that is acceptable. Most women don't want to be only a few seconds away when he recovers.

Even if he has you in his grasp and doesn't let go when you spray him, at least he will be seriously reduced in effectiveness. Still recommend self-defense methods as follow up to tasing or spraying.

In an early podcast, Jack recommended a larger pepper spray container. Not saying he's wrong. In my experience, I just know that the bigger it is the less likely people will carry it and the easier it is to remove from your fist. A 1oz can still has about 20 one second bursts in it.



Title: Re: Thug Avoidance
Post by: archer on June 02, 2009, 04:40:50 PM
In an early podcast, Jack recommended a larger pepper spray container. Not saying he's wrong. In my experience, I just know that the bigger it is the less likely people will carry it and the easier it is to remove from your fist. A 1oz can still has about 20 one second bursts in it.

I'd just give them the full canister if there was only 1 bad guy.. What are your thoughts on that?
Title: Re: Thug Avoidance
Post by: Beetle on June 02, 2009, 04:44:46 PM
    I wouldn't suggest it more is not better with OC and would give you a chance at a follow up shot if you missed the first time or if he had a friend.
Title: Re: Thug Avoidance
Post by: Beetle on June 02, 2009, 04:47:42 PM
   I've heard word that if you use your C2 taser on someone attacking you and loose it running away, Taser will replace it free of charge. Confirm it first though.
Title: Re: Thug Avoidance
Post by: Remington on June 02, 2009, 05:03:57 PM
I'd just give them the full canister if there was only 1 bad guy.. What are your thoughts on that?

You can get around 10 shots out of a large canister of OC spray. If two shots do not deter the attacker then the rest of the can will not make it more effective. Bailey was correct that by reserving the canister you still have a weapon.

We were trained to deliver a three second burst across the brow area of the face, and to follow up with a second if required.

Goatdog62, very good post! Quick question though: why do you say to ignore the expiration/production date on OC spray?
Title: Re: Thug Avoidance
Post by: Goatdog62 on June 02, 2009, 06:03:52 PM
You can get around 10 shots out of a large canister of OC spray. If two shots do not deter the attacker then the rest of the can will not make it more effective. Bailey was correct that by reserving the canister you still have a weapon.

We were trained to deliver a three second burst across the brow area of the face, and to follow up with a second if required.

Goatdog62, very good post! Quick question though: why do you say to ignore the expiration/production date on OC spray?

I can get 20 one second bursts of aerosol pepper spray from a 1 oz can. Two short bursts are alll that is recommended, there is no point is using more and you could just add to your own misery (collateral damage).

Yes, C2 Taser is replaced free of charge if used in a police report documented attack.

Expiration date is required by law, but product doesn't need one. Oleoresin capsicum does not go bad, it actually gets a little more "pungent." As long as you can feel it moving when you shake the canister and test fire it once in a while, it will be fine. No need to waste money.
Title: Re: Thug Avoidance
Post by: Remington on June 02, 2009, 09:16:34 PM
Expiration date is required by law, but product doesn't need one. Oleoresin capsicum does not go bad, it actually gets a little more "pungent." As long as you can feel it moving when you shake the canister and test fire it once in a while, it will be fine. No need to waste money.

Outstanding. My main concern was that the can would loose effectiveness.

Now, assuming regular testing of the canister (say yearly), when would it be a good idea to get a new can, and use up the remainder of the old stuff for practice?

And, do you have a preference for the "stream" or "spray" varieties of OC for most self defense applications?

Thanks!
Title: Re: Thug Avoidance
Post by: Winchester32 on June 02, 2009, 09:29:58 PM
    Someday I'll have to figure out how to transfer the video of my tasering to the internet. I agree I would rather be tased than OC'd, definitely quicker recovery. Although I can still fight when sprayed whereas I am owned by the Taser.


<<Waves a $10 bill around!>>  Ask DEV to help, I'd pay money to see that!!!! LOL!

 ;D
Title: Re: Thug Avoidance
Post by: Goatdog62 on June 02, 2009, 09:33:18 PM
Outstanding. My main concern was that the can would loose effectiveness.

Now, assuming regular testing of the canister (say yearly), when would it be a good idea to get a new can, and use up the remainder of the old stuff for practice?

And, do you have a preference for the "stream" or "spray" varieties of OC for most self defense applications?

Thanks!

Good question.

I pull it when it gets below half and have my kids practice on the neighbors cat... ;D Just kidding PETA!

I do have them deploy it on a tree with a target stuck on it. Lets me make sure they are doing it right.

I have always believed that the cone-shaped mist is the best delivery system. It fans out and makes it real hard to miss the jerkwad. Under stress, aiming the stream requires a steady hand. I don't think the foam is good, except in jail cells on cornered prisoners, because it has very limited range. The advantage to the foam is that it only affects the guy you spray, no mist floating around making others cough. That keeps the jail riots down. The stream has limited mist blowby also, but it really does require a good aim.

This stuff can cause panic in crowds. I answered a call involving a major bar fight, at least 10 units responded and we had our hands full in a club that had at least 150 people (drinking) in it. We had it under control when an overzealous newer cop encountered one of the troublemakers who wouldn't leave the premises. Instead of using an empty hand soft or hard  technique, or even a baton soft technique, he went for his OC. It immediately made everyone trample towards the door like the place was on fire. That caused the crowd to get wild again and more people ended up in the hoosegow.

The stuff, used responsibly, is a great tool when a gun isn't a viable option.
Title: Re: Thug Avoidance
Post by: johnnyb_good30 on June 02, 2009, 10:27:05 PM
ok i got ya. i started her off in the 1st grade with a cell. Lets just say thay said no it was not alowed. Lets just say after some words with the school she is now finshing the 4th grade and still carrys it every day.
Title: Re: Thug Avoidance
Post by: Goatdog62 on June 02, 2009, 10:40:06 PM
ok i got ya. i started her off in the 1st grade with a cell. Lets just say thay said no it was not alowed. Lets just say after some words with the school she is now finshing the 4th grade and still carrys it every day.

Way to put your foot down. My girls carry a cell to school also. It is against the rules but their safety is MY job. They have managed to keep it hidden for some years now. I like teaching them sneaky things.  ;)
Title: Re: Thug Avoidance
Post by: Beetle on June 02, 2009, 10:58:02 PM
    The only thing I would add between foam and aerosol is wind, If your in a windy place like Chicago Foam might be better. We use foam to avoid cross contamination. If your inside say an ER and you end up contaminating the place with aerosol I wouldn't trust the next cup of coffee that nurse offers ya...lol
Title: Re: Thug Avoidance
Post by: Goatdog62 on June 02, 2009, 11:06:00 PM
    The only thing I would add between foam and aerosol is wind, If your in a windy place like Chicago Foam might be better. We use foam to avoid cross contamination. If your inside say an ER and you end up contaminating the place with aerosol I wouldn't trust the next cup of coffee that nurse offers ya...lol

You have a point Bailey. I never had the wind come into play because I generally sprayed it point blank while rolling on the ground with the clown.

Boy, if I'd ever used OC in a hospital I'd still be hearing about it. That would be a big wrong answer. Courthouses, schools, etc. Better use something else. We were issued the mist, didn't have a choice back then. I've had opp to use all kinds since (we had a fire extinguisher sized one for the postgame UT v Florida mobs) but still prefer the mist. The size i;m talking about is just slightly larger than a chapstick, don't know if foam is available that small. If it is, I might carry both. ;)
Title: Re: Thug Avoidance
Post by: Beetle on June 02, 2009, 11:15:36 PM
Don't forget Kubaton's and car keys. Even as big as I am I always walk with a key between my fingers, but then I like going for the eyes.
Title: Re: Thug Avoidance
Post by: Goatdog62 on June 02, 2009, 11:18:41 PM
Yeah, i teach a lot of that too. Hope to expand into that as I continue with the Personal Security threads.

Too busy to make videos and other media.

Must get back to writing my book...
Title: Re: Thug Avoidance
Post by: Sister Wolf on June 02, 2009, 11:32:14 PM
Do you offer classes?  I'd pay for that.  Really.
Title: Re: Thug Avoidance
Post by: Beetle on June 02, 2009, 11:35:03 PM

<<Waves a $10 bill around!>>  Ask DEV to help, I'd pay money to see that!!!! LOL!

 ;D
    Only Ten???? I'm way worth much more!!!
Title: Re: Thug Avoidance
Post by: Winchester32 on June 02, 2009, 11:37:12 PM
    Only Ten???? I'm way worth much more!!!

I'm sure you are!!  Ok, I'll take up a collection.    ;D
Title: Re: Thug Avoidance
Post by: Goatdog62 on June 03, 2009, 04:57:16 AM
Do you offer classes?  I'd pay for that.  Really.

Outside of the long-term contracts that provide my living, I "give" classes to people I like. My way of giving something back to the world.
Title: Re: Thug Avoidance
Post by: mash on June 03, 2009, 09:36:49 PM
Outside of the long-term contracts that provide my living, I "give" classes to people I like. My way of giving something back to the world.

you mean like posting on this forum when you could be writing your book... for instance?
Title: Re: Thug Avoidance
Post by: Goatdog62 on June 03, 2009, 09:41:49 PM
you mean like posting on this forum when you could be writing your book... for instance?

Exactly.

Almost wrote some tonight but got busy mounting a light/laser on my Mossberg 500.

I have my priorities. ;)
Title: Re: Thug Avoidance
Post by: monkeyboyf on June 03, 2009, 10:00:40 PM
Thanks so much, Goatdog62.  Holding my breath for more.  Hurry wit the book!
Title: Re: Thug Avoidance
Post by: Goatdog62 on June 04, 2009, 04:58:11 AM
Thanks so much, Goatdog62.  Holding my breath for more.  Hurry wit the book!

I am, but book is fiction. Not Personal Security related, maybe someday.

Prologue of Steele Resolve

http://thesurvivalpodcast.com/forum/index.php?topic=5503.0
Title: Re: Thug Avoidance
Post by: LvsChant on June 04, 2009, 07:26:35 AM
Great thread... I really appreciate the information. I now feel the need to buy some pepper spray. The whole family is making an outing to the gun range this weekend to do some training... should be big fun. Haven't done any target shooting with my husband in years (I have forgotten everything I once knew, so we'll have to start from scratch). The boys are very excited about it. I like the pepper spray tree training technique... we'll have to do that one, too.

Looking forward to reading the prologue...
Title: Re: Thug Avoidance
Post by: Goatdog62 on June 05, 2009, 08:49:33 PM
I want to add something else.

If driving away from an attack, don't let a chain link fence stand in your way. Do not aim between the poles, center a pole (not a corner one) on your hood and hit it pretty hard. It will lay the fence down and you'll run right over it. If you aim between the poles, the fence will likely flip up and could trap your car and pin you inside.

We tested this extensively.

The average econo box can take out a 3" diameter tree and still move on, a bigger car/suv up to 4" or slightly more. Don't let shrubbery and saplings stop you from fleeing your attacker in a vehicle. It won't help the resale value of your car though.

Title: Re: Thug Avoidance
Post by: Remington on June 07, 2009, 06:06:01 PM
Even more excellent information sir, thank you very much!

Though I doubt I'll ever have the need to drive through a fence, I am sure that I would have done the opposite of what you said! So the information will surely save my hide if I'm ever in the situation.
Title: Re: Thug Avoidance
Post by: fred.greek on June 07, 2009, 07:18:43 PM
With advance apologies to such peace officers are may participate in this forum, and to all, I frankly do not expect responses, rather just to prod your thinking:

“Undocumented” thugs are relatively simple, use whatever weapon and self-defense means are allowed in your jurisdiction…

The response becomes a bit fuzzier when the thug holds a badge… And as the overall big picture worsens, we can unfortunately expect the contacts with “bad cops” to increase and worsen.

Perhaps an even greater quandary awaits the “good cops”, as they are increasingly required to enforce “bad laws” and deal daily with the “bad cops”.   
Title: Re: Thug Avoidance
Post by: Goatdog62 on June 07, 2009, 07:28:26 PM
With advance apologies to such peace officers are may participate in this forum, and to all, I frankly do not expect responses, rather just to prod your thinking:

“Undocumented” thugs are relatively simple, use whatever weapon and self-defense means are allowed in your jurisdiction…

The response becomes a bit fuzzier when the thug holds a badge… And as the overall big picture worsens, we can unfortunately expect the contacts with “bad cops” to increase and worsen.

Perhaps an even greater quandary awaits the “good cops”, as they are increasingly required to enforce “bad laws” and deal daily with the “bad cops”.   


This is absolutely, positively, NOT the thread to discuss bad cops.
Title: Re: Thug Avoidance
Post by: Angie on June 07, 2009, 08:18:34 PM
I'm a retired Registered Nurse.  When working, nurses and other staff were required to attend safety classes yearly.  Working shift work and lonely parking garages and lots lends itself to a hunting ground for bad guys.  I carry pepper spray.  It attaches to my key chain. 

I do remember being instructed that if a bad guy grabs you, holds a gun on you, and is trying to get you to get in a car with him, let him shot you rather than go with him.  Why, because he will probably take you to a very isolated place and kill you anyway, if he shots you in the parking log, someone will hopefully hear the shot and find you.  You chances of survival go up if shot in a public place.  I've always remembered this, and will never get in a car with someone with a knife or a gun. 

What is your opinion????

Title: Re: Thug Avoidance
Post by: Goatdog62 on June 07, 2009, 08:38:07 PM
I'm a retired Registered Nurse.  When working, nurses and other staff were required to attend safety classes yearly.  Working shift work and lonely parking garages and lots lends itself to a hunting ground for bad guys.  I carry pepper spray.  It attaches to my key chain. 

I do remember being instructed that if a bad guy grabs you, holds a gun on you, and is trying to get you to get in a car with him, let him shot you rather than go with him.  Why, because he will probably take you to a very isolated place and kill you anyway, if he shots you in the parking log, someone will hopefully hear the shot and find you.  You chances of survival go up if shot in a public place.  I've always remembered this, and will never get in a car with someone with a knife or a gun. 

What is your opinion????


Tha same as yours Angie. I would not cooperate. A bad guy isn't going to take you somewhere that doesn't allow him to do what he pleases. Don't get in the car with him. Fight and scream. Odds are he won't shoot.
Title: Re: Thug Avoidance
Post by: Goatdog62 on June 07, 2009, 09:31:38 PM
That leads me to another point.

Many abductions take place in the victims own car. You can be made to drive, to sit in the passenger seat, the back seat, the floorboard, or the trunk.

If driving, there are a number of options you have. A weapon may be pointed at your head or ribs. He and you may or may not be belted in. You may have an airbag, he may not. KNOW YOUR CAR VERY WELL. Wrecking the car intentionally may be a viable option...I can't make that call for you, though I know I would based on my training and experience. A violent sudden brake from a high speed that you know is coming and his unbelted ass doesn't may send his head into the windshield. The bottom line is this; make every effort not to reach the destination he has decided to take you to. It will fit his needs and not yours.

Place edged weapons within easy reach of all those locales (adjust if you have children). If he gets you in the car somehow, get it when he is distracted. Remember, he will be stressed and nervous also. An opportunity could very well present itself. When you get it, don't threaten him with it he could disarm you. Use it on his neck, eyes, or groin violently and repeatedly.

From the floorboard, at least try to track the time and direction you are moving in. This may be useful later. If you've hidden a weapon under the seat, now would be a good time to retrieve it.

Even if you aren't abducted in your own car, don't despair. Feel around for the tire tool (have many case histories where that was left in there). Feel for the lock mechanism, usually it is intact as the manufacturer meant it to be. If a bad guy disables the trunk mechanism it makes it real hard for him to get back in there to get you out. Take action, panic later.

Trunks;

Trunks are designed to keep people out. Even old trunks. I escaped from a mid 70's Ford LTD, in a training scenario, by manipulating the mechanism. New trunks are even easier.

We'll start from the top;

1. Prep your trunk by putting weapons, tools, old cell that still has 911 capability (many do), flashlight, etc hidden within. Use them to kill your attacker, call for help, escape from your restraints, etc.

2. As you are being loaded in the trunk by the bad guy (BG), attempt to leave evidence on the outside. Blood smears (if you're already bleeding, use it) on the bumper, clothing dropped on the ground, break a tail light, etc

3. When in the trunk and you have gotten out of any ropes, duct tape, etc (different thread maybe someday) if any, start working the lock. Newer cars have a glow in the dark tag that basically says "pull here dummy" on it. Don't pull it until you are 100% ready to make your attempt, but don't wait until you are well out of town and on that long, lonely gravel road either. Even if he has removed the glow in the dark tag, the mechanism will remain. If you've hidden a flashlight, get to that first. Light can also be obtained by turning the brake or tail light sockets a half turn and bringing the attached bulb and socket into the trunk area. This is easier on some cars than others. Insulation may have to be pulled off its plastic rivets to gain access to tail lights and lock mechanisms. Disabling tail lights can get the cops to pull the car over. This may make the BG take off and a pursuit will ensue, but that is better than dying at the end of a gravel road at the hands of the perp. If you can find the tire tool, you may be able to smash the tail light lenses and get your fingers out there to wave at traffic behind you. Maybe they'll be astute enough to call the cops.

4. From where the key is inserted into the lock cylinder to where it attaches to the lock mechanism are rods, fixed or unfixed. Manipulate the rods if they are unfixed and the trunk should pop. If they are fixed, find the plastic linkage that links it to another rod. Disconnect that plastic linkage by pulling it laterally from the other. It will come apart easily. Then move it to pop the trunk.

5. If that doesn't work, then feel along the flanges of the lid itself, along the struts that prop the trunk open, and elsewhere for a cable that is roughly as thick as a 550 cord. Pull it to trigger the lock mechanism.

6. If that doesn't work then get your fingers into the lock mechanism itself (where it latches shut). You may have to move insulation out of the way first. Move things that move. One of them will trigger the lock. Of all the worlds current vehicles, I have only identified 11 different kinds of lock mechanisms on them, most are very similar. Learn yours when not under stress. Go out there and figure it out. Show your kids how to do it to.

7. If left in the trunk after parking and you don't hear him around, consider attacking the back seat. Some fold down but not easy to do from the trunk side. Check for a ski pole center section that you can widen with the tire tool or attack the seat itself with it to tear it up. This will take time but how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time.

8. Unless parked in the sun in the summer, you probably won't suffocate or heat stroke. Trunks get enough air to keep you breathing. Don't let the panic overwhelm you. Take breather breaks to get your sh*t together. It will suck, there is no doubt about that, but a trunk is not a bank safe.


My two cents. YMMV

Goatdog
Title: Re: Thug Avoidance
Post by: Kellib on June 08, 2009, 10:36:02 AM
Thanks for all this info, I just listened to a pod cast warning woman about giving up and going with the attacker. I would continue to fight but it is good to know how to get out of situations if you are forced in them. This trunk information could save lives. I know that I will now be getting to know my car a little better.
Title: Re: Thug Avoidance
Post by: Ephemeral Joy on June 08, 2009, 12:18:29 PM
I'm a retired Registered Nurse.  When working, nurses and other staff were required to attend safety classes yearly.  Working shift work and lonely parking garages and lots lends itself to a hunting ground for bad guys.  I carry pepper spray.  It attaches to my key chain. 

I do remember being instructed that if a bad guy grabs you, holds a gun on you, and is trying to get you to get in a car with him, let him shot you rather than go with him.  Why, because he will probably take you to a very isolated place and kill you anyway, if he shots you in the parking log, someone will hopefully hear the shot and find you.  You chances of survival go up if shot in a public place.  I've always remembered this, and will never get in a car with someone with a knife or a gun. 

What is your opinion????



I am a Registered Nurse now and that is not requiredwhere I work! It should be, not only because of the parking deck situation but we deal with people who have a tendency to be highly unstable.  I too carry pepper spray but can not while I am at work for obvious reasons.  They just told us to position ourselves near the door and leave our stethoscopes behind if we thought we were going to be in a bad situation in a patients room but what were we to do if they actually grabbed us? 

Title: Re: Thug Avoidance
Post by: Angie on June 08, 2009, 03:08:31 PM
What size is your Hospital, Joy.  I worked at Orlando Regional Medical Center.   Security is required as part of a JCAH Safety requirement.  An accredited medical facility, in order to receive medicare dollars must be JCAH accredited.  Perhaps you should suggest this to your safety officer or hospital administrator.  At Orlando Regional, with 6 facilities, security was important.  We did not have retired old men, we had trained buff young guys who handled security really well.

Your hospital is looking for an employee or even a patient lawsuit.
Title: Re: Thug Avoidance
Post by: Goatdog62 on June 08, 2009, 03:27:10 PM
Thanks for all this info, I just listened to a pod cast warning woman about giving up and going with the attacker. I would continue to fight but it is good to know how to get out of situations if you are forced in them. This trunk information could save lives. I know that I will now be getting to know my car a little better.


You are welcome.

I think I should make the trunk stuff its own thread. It is 45 postings down on this one and it is very important stuff. Then I could start a new one for restraint defeating and some other stuff.
Title: Re: Thug Avoidance
Post by: ColdHaven on June 09, 2009, 07:31:19 AM
What size is your Hospital, Joy.  I worked at Orlando Regional Medical Center.   Security is required as part of a JCAH Safety requirement.  An accredited medical facility, in order to receive medicare dollars must be JCAH accredited.  Perhaps you should suggest this to your safety officer or hospital administrator.  At Orlando Regional, with 6 facilities, security was important.  We did not have retired old men, we had trained buff young guys who handled security really well.

Your hospital is looking for an employee or even a patient lawsuit.

I work at the same hospital Joy does. We have hospital police who are there 24-7. I wonder if that is the reason we do not have safety classes. I would be interested in knowing more about this. I agree that it would be good for us to have such classes.
Title: Re: Thug Avoidance
Post by: Kellib on June 09, 2009, 07:37:01 AM
I


I think I should make the trunk stuff its own thread. It is 45 postings down on this one and it is very important stuff. Then I could start a new one for restraint defeating and some other stuff.

I think that is a terrific idea Its a good thing your first few posts were interesting or I would have never made it to the trunk information. I will keep checking back for more on restraint and self defense. I would greatly like to take a class targeted for woman but have had no luck finding one in my area.
Title: Re: Thug Avoidance
Post by: daveinmichigan on June 10, 2009, 03:23:47 PM
How about a link showing the brand/size of OC you think we should buy?
Title: Re: Thug Avoidance
Post by: Goatdog62 on June 10, 2009, 03:57:00 PM
How about a link showing the brand/size of OC you think we should buy?

Punch II. This is the stuff I issue and carry. It is a small (slightly larger than a lipstick tube) container with the aerosol. It is the 2,000,000 SHU strong stuff. It is flammable, the non-flammable stuff is too weak in my opinion.

http://www.defensivechemicals.com/product_info.php?cPath=7&products_id=12

I do not represent this company, the linked website, or any product containing OC. I just think it is a usefull self-defense tool.

I have used several brands. For personal security, the cone-shaped mist and the small size of this one makes it great. It is a Law Enforcement strength.

Fox is a major brand. They hype about their 5,300,000 SHU stuff. However they only have a 2% solution, which is the viscosity of the product, you want  a minimum of 5% and no more than 10%.

There are many larger sizes and many brands. There are mists, aerosols, foams, streams, grenades, pepper balls, etc. This is the stuff I think you should carry as a potential victim. Other applications might be better served by other versions.

Goatdog 
Title: Re: Thug Avoidance
Post by: monkeyboyf on June 18, 2009, 05:04:56 PM
Received an email today about Wasp spray as personal protection against would be muggers or invaders.  A shot to the eyes from 20 feet away or even the face will blind them and give you time to get away.  What do you think, Goatdog? 
Title: Re: Thug Avoidance
Post by: Goatdog62 on June 18, 2009, 11:01:52 PM
Received an email today about Wasp spray as personal protection against would be muggers or invaders.  A shot to the eyes from 20 feet away or even the face will blind them and give you time to get away.  What do you think, Goatdog? 

If you are talking about using an insecticide, sure it might work. But since that would likely be considered deadly force, you'd be as justified to use a gun. Pepper Spray is not considered deadly force. If you want pepper spray that works from 20 feet away, just get the various stream versions (Sabre make s a decent one). You need to have a very good aim with this stuff, that may not be that easy under stress as it doesn't fly true and fast like a bullet would.

Liabilitywise, I would not use insecticide on anyone unless deadly force was my only option and a gun wasn't available.
Title: Re: Thug Avoidance
Post by: Beetle on June 19, 2009, 12:02:56 PM
Received an email today about Wasp spray as personal protection against would be muggers or invaders.  A shot to the eyes from 20 feet away or even the face will blind them and give you time to get away.  What do you think, Goatdog? 

    Are they suggesting that you carry a can of wasp spray on your person? I think GD is right if your getting attacked in your garage and all you can grab is the wasp spray....well....lmao.
Stick with O.C. less chance of being sued.
 
Title: Re: Thug Avoidance
Post by: monkeyboyf on June 19, 2009, 01:01:39 PM
Thanks, guys.  This was from a church secretary alone on Mondays in the office counting Sunday offerings.  No gun there. Just available on desk.  Your reasoning is much better, and I have firepower in every room of my house, the barn,too.He he :)
Title: Re: Thug Avoidance
Post by: Goatdog62 on June 19, 2009, 01:19:58 PM
Thanks, guys.  This was from a church secretary alone on Mondays in the office counting Sunday offerings.  No gun there. Just available on desk.  Your reasoning is much better, and I have firepower in every room of my house, the barn,too.He he :)

If you are with large sums of cash I think you should not only be armed, I think you should have someone trustworthy there watching out for you.

I'm glad to hear you are well armed on your homestead.
Title: Re: Thug Avoidance
Post by: Newb Survivalist on June 19, 2009, 01:32:48 PM
Tasers
Hell, more than once after a spraying incident, I visited the mens room to do my business and well...watch where you touch yourself. :o Even soap and water doesn't get it all.


I had a similar incident after making salsa.....very uncomfortable shower experience.
Title: Re: Thug Avoidance
Post by: LvsChant on August 18, 2010, 05:08:12 PM
bump... another great thread all of us should read...
Title: Re: Thug Avoidance
Post by: Lara on August 19, 2010, 09:42:17 PM
Very nice thread, Goatdog, and everyone else.

I'm a big fan of avoidance.  Even when I was a college kid, I understood that.  I'd wear the cute little dress... but with Doc Martens so I could run away quickly, since I went to school in New Orleans.  I think that even if kids might act like they're not listening, they are, so keep telling them how to defend themselves. 

Evasion also works... the one time I was followed by several guys in the French Quarter, I ducked in the nearest bar, and the bartender (after seeing the look on my face), went outside with a baseball bat.  Things were OK.   ;)  Nowadays, I just carry concealed, but when I was young, the lessons my dad taught me were still in my brain even though I never would have admitted it.

I really appreciate you telling us how you think things through, and how you teach.  I've learned a lot of self-defense from aikido classes, etc, but frankly, it's a whole lot easier and more effective to just spray (or shoot) someone.  I was always more concerned about my subluxing shoulders during aikido class, since that was the current threat.  A small glimpse into how you assess things and avoid problems is very helpful.  Thanks.

I had a patient one day who had been sprayed with OC, and he had been taken to the decontamination showers once already.  When he regained his wits (after whatever else he had on board wore off), he asked to be taken back to the showers since the OC had just been rinsed from his face down to his other sensitive areas by the shower... even the white phone that he had been holding was covered in orange from the spray.  That stuff was everywhere.  Next time, when the PD tells you to lie down, I'd recommend lying down...

Having been an ER nurse where OC was sprayed inside the ER...yeah... we still love him since the PD often defends us when we need it, but he did cause us to lock down several treatment rooms that we could have been using that night.  Took a while to decontaminate. 
Title: Re: Thug Avoidance
Post by: soupbone on August 30, 2010, 01:26:14 PM
Goatdog,

Several posts ago you recommended "you want  a minimum of 5% and no more than 10%." concentration. There are some sprays out there that advertise 15% and up. In this instance, isn't more better? Or is 10% the concentration that produces the maximum effect - the body won't feel any more pain from 15% than it does from 10%. I've carried CN and CS, but have no experience with OC. I'm thinking of getting some OC for personal and home defense. I live in a small town that has a low crime rate, and don't feel a firearm is necessary under current conditions.

I was Air Force Security Police back in the day when nonlethal sprays were just coming out. We issued a spray that was a diluted form of Agent DM, a serious vomiting agent. It did a most excellent job, as I recall, but the process of cuffing, transporting, booking, etc., left much to be desired. We had a lot of guys named Raalph Baarker........

Thanks for your assistance.

sb
Title: Re: Thug Avoidance
Post by: Hare of Caerbannog on August 30, 2010, 01:48:48 PM
Just to keep the thread active...
Goaty is on a pretty heavy work load right now so it may be a while before he sees this and can answer it.
Title: Re: Thug Avoidance
Post by: Sarey on August 31, 2010, 08:20:27 PM
Great thread and Goatdog you've shared much to ponder...

Thank you!