The Survival Podcast Forum

Finance and Economics => The Money Board => Topic started by: Smurf Hunter on March 16, 2017, 10:29:34 AM

Title: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
Post by: Smurf Hunter on March 16, 2017, 10:29:34 AM
Recently I've attended a couple funerals for elderly female relatives.  Both lived well into their 90s.
Both enjoyed upper-middle class lifestyles for much of their lives, and had smart, hard working husbands who prepared financially.

Inevitably, "family dynamics"  happen, and gossip about estates and inheritance spreads among relatives and close friends.

What's curious and terrifying to me, is at the time each of these women became widows, they owned their respective homes in full, and were financially secure beyond social security.
However, each of these women died with relative little in terms of wealth.  In one case, in the last decade the long time family home was sold for $1.4 million.  As there was no mortgage, that was all profit (minus taxes and commission of course).  However, just a decade of nursing care, cancer treatments and other costs consumed 80%+ of that.  After final expenses, and 4 siblings dividing the estate, each could barely get a new car - or the woman could have continued her care for another 20 months at the previous cost schedule.
I know many people would love to be as fortunate, but what appears as a massive windfall wasn't. 

You can view this a few ways - they were prepared for what they needed, or they lived longer than anticipated.

Further, these elderly folks came from a generation where pensions existed.  One worked for a large bank, the other a USAF officer with full retirement benefits.
Most of us will rely on 401K/IRA with whatever we contributed (possible some employer match).    My plan looks okay if I die at 75, but unless I ramp stuff up, I'm up a creek if I live to be 100.

Again, I'm not worried about dying rich - but I don't want my kids to have to spend several thousands each month for nursing care.


EDIT: changed thread title at Smurf's request
Title: Re: Why is there not more activity on this board?
Post by: mountainmoma on March 16, 2017, 12:39:28 PM
Not to mention that capitol gains taxes are extreme on house sales ! Maybe we could make a suggestion to our congress critters ( yeah, right ! ) that a house sale (primary home) of someone over 62 (or whatever) isnt subject to the capitol gains tax.

SO, she is single and sells the Million dollar house, with a purchase price of lets say 50k, so IRS sees 700,000 ( 1,000,000 less 50,000 less 250,000) as capital gains taxable and takes, I dont know current rate , lets say 25%, so takes something around 175,000 as taxes ! This is only one of many problems. WHy doesnt the house get to act like a 401plan ? Because, for most of us, this is what our house is when we get older, a large part of our plan for our own elder care.

An elderly member of my extended family, I have been told, it costs 7,000 per month for the care home she lives in,
Title: Re: Why is there not more activity on this board?
Post by: bigbear on March 16, 2017, 01:46:47 PM
Trump-mania?  Change the thread title to some along the line of your comments and you've got something.

My mom died about 2 years ago at age 68 after a 7 year battle with ovarian cancer.  She had crazy expenses but because dad was retired Army, her Tricare coverage was really good. 

A few thoughts on that: 
* Gov't jobs provide much better health coverage than private jobs, especially in retirement.  It's amazing that we, the taxpayers, allow for it.  Obviously it helped my mom, but it's just messed up for everyone else.
* We spend 40+ years working/saving to pay for the last 2 years of health care.
* Pensions are amazing.  Mom was a retired teacher.  And Dad retired from the Army and the state transportation department.  Mom and Dad had 3 pensions and 2 SSI checks coming in.  They made more in retirement that actually working.  Again, it's amazing that we, the taxpayers, allow for it.

You would think I'd be lined up for a nice inheritance.  But Dad's engaged to someone with completely a spend-happy, controlling lifestyle.   :-X :-\
Title: Re: Why is there not more activity on this board?
Post by: Smurf Hunter on March 16, 2017, 01:56:50 PM

* We spend 40+ years working/saving to pay for the last 2 years of health care.

It's a bummer.  I don't expect to live my retirement like a Saudi Prince, but it would be nice to do some enjoyable things and not worry about near-end health costs.

BTW: sorry about your mother.  That experience sounds awful.  We lost my mother-in-law to cancer almost 13 years ago.  She was in her early 50s.
Title: Re: Why is there not more activity on this board?
Post by: AvenueQ on March 16, 2017, 04:13:06 PM
Trump-mania?  Change the thread title to some along the line of your comments and you've got something.

Yeah, I had a response lined up for this based on the thread title, but then got really confused when I got here and started reading (shame on me for assuming, I guess).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the original point in starting this thread was to start a dialogue about money management and how we all need to be more aware of it, because it's easy to go through life thinking that we're "wealthy" when really we're "rich". And that can have a huge impact on not only us, but our families and successors as well.

Personally, I don't use this board because it's too dense or esoteric for me most of the time. I'm in a weird position where I understand the basics of saving money, choosing a retirement plan, etc., so a crash-course would probably be too simple for me. However, get too detailed and specific about the stock market (for example) and I'm lost. Not that I can't understand money and economics, but if I get too much information coming in too fast, I'll totally shut down and get "analysis paralysis."
Title: Re: Why is there not more activity on this board?
Post by: LVWood on March 16, 2017, 04:25:25 PM
Trump-mania?  Change the thread title to some along the line of your comments and you've got something.
I did this morning but got slapped by an admin for it.
Title: Re: Why is there not more activity on this board?
Post by: David in MN on March 16, 2017, 04:29:22 PM
Couple things...

We're really bad at this game. The modern American solution is essentially a lump sum lottery payout in the form of a 401(k). Not good. A better model is to have as many small inputs as possible taking advantage of insurance, savings, investment, etc. A good investor can make a small living in retirement off dividends. I know people who do.

Almost nobody I know outside my family takes full advantage of insurance. There are many types and unique abilities to use as we age.

My first controversial point... Work for a big company out of school. Both of us did and got about a decade of vested pensions. The 401(k) match was awesome as well. Do that in your 20s and you'll be better set going forward. I know it's not sexy or fun but it works.

Second controversial point... I watched my grandfather die after crippling dementia had his brain for years. It's not some cute story like The Notebook. I'll spare the details but I am not spending a decade rotting in a hospital unable to recognize my family.

Personally, I don't use this board because it's too dense or esoteric for me most of the time. I'm in a weird position where I understand the basics of saving money, choosing a retirement plan, etc., so a crash-course would probably be too simple for me. However, get too detailed and specific about the stock market (for example) and I'm lost. Not that I can't understand money and economics, but if I get too much information coming in too fast, I'll totally shut down and get "analysis paralysis."

You do know that all of Wall Street's quants are physics majors, right? Turns out to be the best algorithm writers on the planet. Read Taleb and you'll start getting economics better...
Title: Re: Why is there not more activity on this board?
Post by: Smurf Hunter on March 16, 2017, 05:06:35 PM
Read Taleb and you'll start getting economics better...

Years ago I read the sample chapter of The Black Swan.  While fascinating, it felt like the science behind "sh#t happens".  I might pick it up again, but I believe in Murphy's Law, whether there's an algorithm or not.

Sorry about the thread title.  Q is correct.  I should have titled it "why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff"?
Title: Re: Why is there not more activity on this board?
Post by: Carl on March 16, 2017, 05:32:35 PM
  My daycare center and alligator ranch did not turn out as a good investment... ::)
Title: Re: Why is there not more activity on this board?
Post by: David in MN on March 16, 2017, 05:45:01 PM
Years ago I read the sample chapter of The Black Swan.  While fascinating, it felt like the science behind "sh#t happens".  I might pick it up again, but I believe in Murphy's Law, whether there's an algorithm or not.

Sorry about the thread title.  Q is correct.  I should have titled it "why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff"?

Taleb is really good for technical people like me. Antifragile is his best work if you only read one.

Preppers don't talk money because we know how painful the discussion will be. The $5k we all have in rifles, shotguns, and pistols we bought in our 20s could have let us retire earlier. Being a "prepper" gives carte blanche for spending too much on toys while ignoring the bigger picture.
Title: Re: Why is there not more activity on this board?
Post by: CPT Morgan on March 16, 2017, 05:52:41 PM
Could your question be due to the fact that many "preppers" are completely comfortable with the thought of a subsistence retirement?

That said, another example could be the differences between my brother and I.  He lives to play and keep up with the Jones', owning things that people envy.  I on the other hand like a more laid back approach, can wait for what I want, like to have everything paid for and could care less what others think.  He is counting on our parents kicking the bucket before they spend all their money and I don't want a dime of what I didn't earn myself.
Title: Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
Post by: Mr. Bill on March 16, 2017, 06:58:10 PM
Trump-mania?  Change the thread title to some along the line of your comments and you've got something.
I did this morning but got slapped by an admin for it.

MODERATOR NOTE: If you want a moderator to fix something, use the "Report to moderator" button and explain the problem.  The original poster can't change the thread title anyway.

I've changed the title to what Smurf Hunter requested.
Title: Re: Why is there not more activity on this board?
Post by: RitaRose1945 on March 16, 2017, 07:17:22 PM
Pensions are amazing.  Mom was a retired teacher.  And Dad retired from the Army and the state transportation department.  Mom and Dad had 3 pensions and 2 SSI checks coming in.  They made more in retirement that actually working.  Again, it's amazing that we, the taxpayers, allow for it.

Don't forget that, while they may get a pension with a government job, then they generally don't get social security too because there's a windfall elimination provision and they don't pay into social security during their government years.

I paid into social security most of my adult life, with some time unpaid as my ex-husband's business partner and five years off to stay home with my kids.

About three years ago, I started working a government job and currently have 14.5% deducted from my paycheck to fund my pension. I'll do that for 15 more years before I hit retirement age, so I'll get 45% of my last three years pay as pension.  I paid in to social security for decades, but I'll only get about half of the social security I would otherwise get.

So it really does kind of even out.  When it's a bit over the top is when you have both spouses working pension jobs with survivor benefits (so a double pension for one person when the spouse dies), or one of them retiring from one 30-year pension job, then getting another job with a pension because they're not even 50 when their 30 years are up.
Title: Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
Post by: FreeLancer on March 16, 2017, 08:11:25 PM
Because a lot of preppers are broke, ignorant of basic financial planning concepts, and persist in fantasizing about a future where it won't matter anyway.  Just look at any of the threads here on investing over the years, where the predominant sentiment is that the financial system is going to hell, money will soon be worthless, and an ammo can of silver is a wise retirement plan.  However, now that Trump is President and the future looks brighter for the average prepper, this world view may be changing.
Title: Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
Post by: fred.greek on March 16, 2017, 10:49:04 PM
Warning - Probable babble.  It has been a long day and I pasted together the below from other forum comments I have made. 

Preparedness as retirement plan
Personal Opinion:
Preparing for retirement is an aspect of overall “Prepping”.
Others have mentioned the book “The Alpha Strategy” for prepper/retirement planning thoughts.  I also recommend it, available to read at: http://www.scribd.com/doc/6230684/The-Alpha-Strategy

More reading might include “Early Retirement Extreme”:
https://www.scribd.com/doc/156367201/Early-Retirement-Extreme

And what seems to be a related discussion forum:
http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/index.php?sid=fc2910e3947af308e2a353274ae96f69

And perhaps:

https://www.early-retirement.org/forums/register.php?a=act&u=32170&i=ecb04505289a2adf1b9d3ddbc265939d077afe5a

I used to visit these retirement forums frequently, up until the wife and I were both retired.

A significant aspect of our retirement plan was an “Urban Homestead”.  Nearly 20 years ago we bought a small home in a relatively quiet neighborhood, more or less close and central to those aspects we anticipated we would want/need.  (Church, grocery, library, hospital.)  We rented it out, and put the rental profits, and more, back into the home.
    Examples: Solar, upgraded wiring & plumbing, rainwater collection, graywater use, edible landscaping.  Refinished with long-term durable materials. New windows, blah, blah….
By the time we retired, the place is not necessarily roomy or pretty, but it functions and reduces what would otherwise be ongoing costs… It’s nice to be able to water the garden with “free” water, and pick “safe” veggies whenever we want.  Heck, a few months out of the year the electric company pays us… 

When I retired, at the first possible moment I rolled my 401k type accound to what amounts to a "real estate" IRA type account.  The account owns fully paid for rental homes.  Since we do not need the money yet, the rents accumulate in the account, and when there is enough, we make an upgrade to a property.
A significant aspect of our retirement plan was an “Urban Homestead”.  Nearly 20 years ago we bought a small home in a relatively quiet neighborhood, more or less close and central to those aspects we wanted.  (Church, grocery, library, hospital.)  We rented it out, and put the rental profits, and more, back into the home.
Examples: Solar, upgraded wiring & plumbing, rainwater collection, graywater use, edible landscaping.  Refinished with long-term durable materials. New windows, blah, blah….
By the time we retired, the place is not necessarily roomy or pretty, but it functions and reduces what would otherwise be ongoing costs… A few months out of the year the electric company pays us…
For investment, consider a self-directed IRA, or solo 401k. 

http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/index.php?sid=fc2910e3947af308e2a353274ae96f69

http://thesurvivalpodcast.com/forum/index.php?topic=8886.30
September 20, 2009, 07:06:03 PM »
•   Quote
The powers that be want you to work, and be taxed, all your life…  and they want it impossible for your to pass to your children the benefits of your labor.

If you disconnect from the taxed economy, you’re still going to be required to pay your “property tax”. Consider:

Everyone in your neighborhood owns their home free of any mortgage.  All are fireproof and grow enough food to feed the family.  Someone from each homestead works enough to pay the property taxes, but otherwise each family more or less specializes in some craft, and the crops grown.  Since everyone gets along on the barter system, and no money changes hands, you ignore the rest of the taxing authorities. 

Wrong.

Your local “sales tax” authorities may consider all of your barter exchanges a commercial transaction, and demand their tax. 

The IRS  is also quite likely to consider your exchanges as commercial transactions, subject to income tax, self employment (Social Security & Medicaid) tax, etc.

And it can get worse.  Say the neighbor kid double-digs your garden, and you barter some of your canned goods in exchange.  If the tax authorities deem the kid your employee, vs an independent contractor you potentially owe minimum wage, tax withholding, and such other labor law requirements as are imposed in your jurisdiction.  (Our laws are “nuts”, and even the tax authorities DO NOT know what they say.)

Although no money actually changed hands in any of the above events, if they are deemed taxable you will have to obtain official currency somewhere to pay the tax officials.  Most likely, someone from each family will be forced to work at a “real” job to earn cash.

Government agencies, in particular the tax authorities, have a vested interest in fragmentation of families, friendships, and communities based on such.  If you are growing your own food, looking after your neighbors, helping each other, taking turns letting the kids gather at homes, and not hiring someone for these "services", the tax authority has no easy basis to establish and siphon off part of the effort.  Government agencies have a vested interest in discouraging people from taking care of themselves, or each other, and in CREATING problems, and expanding problems, to expand the scope of the solutions the agencies offer.
 
Tax law has crammed health insurance into the square-hole of being an employee benefit, a tax deduction to the employer, not taxable to the employee, but not in the best interest of the employer, employee, or the insurance company.  Until health insurance ceases to be primarily a benefit provided by an employer, it is going to continue to be a mess.  ANY government run program though is going to be a BIGGER mess.  Re the U.S. government, consider, it cannot even provide for day to day employee salary and keeping the lights on at government buildings, without BORROWING.  It borrows for everything else.  Does any sane person want any aspect of their life dependent on an entity that is so badly run?

Social Security (perhaps the greatest Ponzi scheme in history) tax has created an illusion of a retirement income, as have promised pensions from employers, rather than individuals setting up their own clearly owned and ongoing plans.  Take GM for example, it is broke.  Without cash coming in from the fed, which is borrowed, it would be bankrupt, and the planned big pensions and health care would be gone. 

Lower ongoing / outgoing costs.  I suggest the FIRST thing to eliminate it any reception of broadcast television.  It saps your after-tax money, and the time that is your life, that could be far better utilized.

Your IRA / 401(k) can be invested in rental real estate, a small business that you control, etc.  Google “checkbook IRA”, or “real estate IRA”.  Your IRA can own the home rented to your brother, and his IRA can own the home rented to you.  You can both of course charge well below “market” rent.  No tax consequence…  Your IRA can own a small business, where you work… How about a prepper business, an LLC that buys and sells say storage food, which the business must of course have a large stock on hand at all times.

Gold, silver, copper, nickel, grain, .22 LR, coupons good for dental work, WHATEVER, they are all currency for a local economy, just NOT what the government wants paid in.  For many purposes, you’re stuck having an emergency fund in dollars… But I again point to nickels, to the extent that you need some modest amount of cash about, why not nickels, which at least have the potential to climb as inflation becomes more significant.

The concept mentioned, of mortgage insurance, fits a hyperinflationary environment.  If all stays well, you earn and pay off the loan.  If the fertilizer hits the fan, the amount owed on the mortgage stays fixed, and your (hopefully) growing income lets you pay the loan off with the monopoly money (With apologies to Monopoly..)  My point, I guess, is that if you assume hyperinflation, life insurance, and inflation hedges, intended to pay off some fixed loan, are great. 

Life insurance as a generic pot of money, hopefully for your surviving loved one to live off, may be a sad joke.  As we’ve seen over and over, the politicians can inflate away any value of an insurance payout in terms of a currency…

There is “good” debt, and “bad” debt.  If you have debt to own a productive asset, it’s “good” debt, and like mortgage insurance to cover a place to live, insurance to cover a debt on a productive asset is a good thing.  Without the debt though, the insurance can be worthless.

My exercise, is my garden.  Must as it was back when I was a kid.  My neighbors have commented on the mess… on my doing the yard myself, rather than paying someone, as they apparently feel I should… I guess I should then go to the gym with them…

I recall one grandfather retired, and said he wasn’t going to do anything except watch the grass grow… Within a year or so, he was watching from below the grass.  The other grandfather was partially disabled from factory accidents, but kept busy at gardening, tinkering with stuff, small scale business, etc., and lived much longer. 
Title: Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
Post by: Chemsoldier on March 17, 2017, 12:02:47 AM
 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
Post by: surfivor on March 17, 2017, 06:04:20 AM

 I am not big on investing but I am not sure what to invest in. A while back I heard about buying stocks like wall mart, star bucks and so on. Someone on a show mentioned it and it seemed like maybe a safe bet, however the market timing seemed wrong. Right now some people are saying Trump is going to grow the economy but other people are singing some different tune.


I bought some CD's a while ago. I had to buy them through Bank of America. The Credit union that I use has a screwed up website with my old address and they couldn't even fix it to allow me to buy a CD on their website.


 Gary Null on the other hand is saying just buy precious metals.

I still think about how Jack said on down the road the government may control your 401K.

Title: Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
Post by: RitaRose1945 on March 17, 2017, 08:56:16 AM
I am not big on investing but I am not sure what to invest in. A while back I heard about buying stocks like wall mart, star bucks and so on. Someone on a show mentioned it and it seemed like maybe a safe bet, however the market timing seemed wrong. Right now some people are saying Trump is going to grow the economy but other people are singing some different tune.


I bought some CD's a while ago. I had to buy them through Bank of America. The Credit union that I use has a screwed up website with my old address and they couldn't even fix it to allow me to buy a CD on their website.


 Gary Null on the other hand is saying just buy precious metals.

I still think about how Jack said on down the road the government may control your 401K.

Watch the S&P 500.  Seriously.

It may be boring, and it has its own ups and downs like everything else, but it has a really long and impressive track record.

Just don't move money around a lot.  Trying to figure out timing is a full time job, and even then you can easily get it wrong.  Find something reasonable, put money in and leave it, put more money in on a regular basis, and leave it alone.


(http://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.6Rr2lAq-WXb6-vYWx93cFQEsDG&pid=15.1)
Title: Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
Post by: David in MN on March 17, 2017, 09:52:29 AM
Because a lot of preppers are broke, ignorant of basic financial planning concepts, and persist in fantasizing about a future where it won't matter anyway.  Just look at any of the threads here on investing over the years, where the predominant sentiment is that the financial system is going to hell, money will soon be worthless, and an ammo can of silver is a wise retirement plan.  However, now that Trump is President and the future looks brighter for the average prepper, this world view may be changing.

Truer words were never spoken. A lot of financial talk around here is super doom and gloom. Lots of "short the whole market" talk by people I strongly suspect don't have a brokerage account. The Dow is always about to crash and silver is the only saving grace. (Not that metals are a bad idea, they're just overhyped.)

I don't share most of my investing thoughts here, it's kind of the wrong forum anyway. Those of us who trade need our own little corner to play in. Maybe I'm part of the problem because I'd rather talk knives, guns, and gear. A lot of "skills" boards (cooking, hunting, investing) seem a little neglected.
Title: Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
Post by: Carl on March 17, 2017, 10:01:03 AM
 Dave,you entered while I was typing,so I had to add that SKILL is something that they can't take from you and the tools of our 'lifestyle' have little value to anyone else.KARMA


 I firmly believe the stock market is unrealistically high and too prone to fluctuation on whim and rumor. It is high because of all that 'bailout' money that needed a place to go rather than return to the free spenders to maybe pay down the debt that they lay on the taxpayers back as if it was our fault that government regulation had stalled Banking and manufacturing and housing...now that they profit, the funds should be paid back...with interest.

  Remember what the banks in GREECE did?, your money in the bank can be stolenre valued just as quickly. I would not invest in such insecure ventures. Real value is in metals,land,and quality tools,CASH VALUE INSURANCE...solid investment that you can control and trust to where it is going.
Will you make a fortune?...NO,but you won't lose one either.

"Greek politicians, journalists, and civil servants are being asked to declare any large sums of cash or precious metals they may have stashed at home as part of the overhaul of the country's tax returns.

First reported by the Greek business news website Enikonomia.gr, the new addition to the rules mean Greeks will have to declare any cash holdings above 15,000 euros ($15,888) - outside of a bank - and any jewelry and precious stones worth over 30,000 euros.

The rules only apply for the whole household and will come into effect on January 1, 2016. It forms a "joint ministerial decision" by the Ministry of Justice and Finance, according to Enikonomia.gr, and sets out a new category of Greece's online tax declaration, called the "assets declaration."



https://www.ft.com/content/9963b74c-219c-11e5-aa5a-398b2169cf79

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-03/greek-banks-considering-30-haircut-deposits-over-%E2%82%AC8000-ft-reports

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/12/02/greeks-tax-mattress-gold-jewelry-greece.html

Title: Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
Post by: surfivor on March 17, 2017, 10:11:09 AM
yea,
well I have quite a bit of money just sitting in the bank. My mother thinks it's dumb. I might buy some more CD's.

I bought a car a while ago. Now I have two cars and I don't drive my truck much. I drive it once a week basically. I plan to wait until next year and if my financial situation is still looking good I may buy another truck camper which is sort of a luxury but it has it's uses for vacations and parking it at the beach on cold days.

 Then I hear all this talk by various people that you should just buy precious metals and everything is crap .. I do buy some silver from time to time, not a ton really though I have some from previous years .. I really don't know .. the guys that say just buy precious metals could be right or they could be wrong. I have no really firm feeling on it

 I do know that in the 1990's everyone convinced me to buy stocks and I never made any money from it and was very unimpressed with what happened in 2008

Should I buy an expensive guitar ? It's more my style to be frugal .. I already own several guitars but there's only two that I really like .. I actually just bought an electronic drum set for $800 as well as $400 worth of recording gear.
I own several surfboards, two canoes and I bought a kayak last summer

If I don't go to my sisters this year for Christmas I might take a trip to Mexico or Costa Rica to go surfing in the winter. If I go by myself I will be frugal and find a hotel that is around $30 a night or I might even bring my own tent and cook stove. That's how I have always done it even if I could afford better. When I went with my family to Costa Rica we spent a ton of money on going out to eat and more expensive accommodations. I will only fly someplace in the winter to visit my sister or go to the tropics, especially if I only have 2 weeks or less

 I do think the healthcare costs are crazy. I have been studying nutrition and plan to give a toastmasters speech on nutrition soon. I order all kinds of vitamin and mineral supplements and try to study alternative medicine and health so I can try to be my own doctor
Title: Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
Post by: Chris Gilliam on March 17, 2017, 03:41:49 PM
Dividend stocks is all I do. Unless you count the $10 per month my YouTube channel makes.  ;D
Title: Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
Post by: Alan Georges on March 17, 2017, 07:53:10 PM
The problem is, modern survivalist finance is just boring as hell.  Live within your means.  Pay down debt.  Build up a reasonable cash cushion.  Make fairly conventional financial investments, without falling for market hype.  Watch out for black swans and telegraphed punches, but try not to be too paranoid about these things.  Make some small side-bets in precious metals – and maybe stock a few barter goods too if you're feeling twitchy.

I know none of this is outlandish (well, except maybe that last one), but what percentage of the general population actually does this?  It's all just common sense.  Until we get down to the part about black swans, there's nothing you couldn't comfortably discuss outside the preparedness community.

So why discuss the conventional stuff here at all?  When it comes to finances, I come here to catch glimpses of things that aren't widely reported but that could be harbingers of something bad or maybe even good.  Most of it doesn't pan out, for which I am grateful, but nonetheless I keep a weather eye on the economy and this board helps.
Title: Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
Post by: trader-gkc on March 22, 2017, 03:30:01 PM
Talk to your life insurance guy, they have riders that can be added to a life insurance policy,if your healthy now to cover some of those nursing home, long term care, etc. costs. There are other ways to plan for those kind of things through other types of insurance products too. As my old hockey coach used to say Prior Preparation Prevents Poor Performance.
Title: Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
Post by: notmyrealname on March 25, 2017, 04:59:16 AM
Financial preparedness requires the same discipline as learning any other skill.  And there are some great teachers out there,  Dave Ramsey for personal finance, and I also like Early Retirement Extreme, the Web site and book.

Jack said in one of his episodes that the next war will be financial.  I see a great risk here, but also it's fairly easy to prepare for if you can consistently manage your income and expenses and live below your means. 

Ferfal from Surviving in Argentina's book talks about owning real estate in secure neighborhoods, and basically all the old ways of making an income if the economy fails.

With most anything preparedness is one baby step at a time. 

If I die in my 90s with most resources gone, and I am not a burden to my kids, I would say that's an accomplishment.  It is a disappointment if the next generation was planning on inheritance.  I hope to leave something to my kids but that's up to God.  I can give the kids the right mindset to make their own way.
Title: Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
Post by: Mr. Bill on March 25, 2017, 01:09:34 PM
Something I've been slowly working on:

If you are the person who handles banking, investments, taxes, etc in your household, write up some notes for your spouse/heirs/executor in case you die or become incapacitated.

I've already got fairly good notes about our investments.  This year I'm also writing down notes as I work through TurboTax.  Yes, it takes twice as long to write the notes as it does to enter the tax data.
Title: Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
Post by: Chemsoldier on March 26, 2017, 03:38:49 AM
Why don't preppers talk about financial stuff?

Many preppers seem to lump financial things into "threat / understanding the world" category instead of a line of prepping effort.  This is short sighted since money can be exchanged for goods and services.  Since money can be exchanged for goods and services, this means preps are money and money is a prep.  We need to have tangible goods in case the necessities of life are unavailable for a time, but those are extraordinary circumstances and most times money (or medium of exchange of some sort) will be able buy that which you need to survive.

The Great Depression and the Dust Bowl was a SHTF for many families that created dislocation.  People who by our standards were preppers (they canned, root cellared, gardened (in addition to their farms), mended or made their own clothes, hated debt, etc.) lost the jobs they were trained for and believed in, couldn't grow crops and were generally unable to stay where they were for a variety of reasons.  They were dislocated, circumstances forced them away from all their "preps" the prepping safety net of subsistence agriculture and activity.  A lot believed deeply in the agriculture model and saw it as a good, moral life.  Ones that were dislocated and moved to California for instance, found that the land was all owned and there was minimal opportunity to own their own small farm.  Talk about a SHTF.  If they had had greater financial resources they might have made it on their land longer or through the dust bowl.  Many never had a chance even had they prepared for that exact scenario, but it is still a good exercise to examine what you are preparing for?  What more can you do and where should your limited time and effort go to?
Title: Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
Post by: TheLastBoyscout on September 25, 2017, 09:04:19 PM
The feeling that financial stuff is not macho has always been out there in our circles.  It is more macho to talk about BUG OUT LOCATIONS and GUN and BULLETS.  The reality is we should talk more about finances.
Title: Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
Post by: Sailor on September 26, 2017, 12:46:27 PM
Something I've been slowly working on:

If you are the person who handles banking, investments, taxes, etc in your household, write up some notes for your spouse/heirs/executor in case you die or become incapacitated.

I've already got fairly good notes about our investments.  This year I'm also writing down notes as I work through TurboTax.  Yes, it takes twice as long to write the notes as it does to enter the tax data.

This,

My wife could never navigate the 2 factor authentication to get to all the passwords/account information, tax copies etc.  I have set up a USB key fob with encrypted data/instructions for about everything.  She will need that physical fob to open my password manager. 
Title: Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
Post by: NWPilgrim on September 26, 2017, 08:46:13 PM
I have seen several friends and parents/family pass away under similar circumstances.  In the past you typically were alive and then either keeled over one day or got a bad disease and were dead at home within a few months.  Nowadays people live for many years on gradually increasing levels of hospital and home care.  A bedridden person in a care facility will cost $5000-$7000 MONTHLY.  And few insurance plans will cover that for 5-10 years in full.  My folks both had government pensions (were taking home much more than their last paycheck due to COL increases) plus SSA.  But my Dad slipped into Parkinsons which includes a form of mental impairment.  Before my mom realized it he had sold out their waterfront home for a song ("it's my damn money and I can do with as I want!"), then sold their annuity for some hairbrained investment, and canceled their long-term care insurance they paid into for 20 years.  even so they were still doing OK, but then years of care for his PArkinsons, even with mom caring for him at home, and then her years of congestive heart failure and pneumonia episodes really taxed their finances.  She traded their last downsized house for a spot in a retirement community and died with just $50K left in the bank.  And that was only because she was very frugal and disciplined with HER finances. Sharp as a tack until the week of her death at 85.

If you want to be kept propped up until you have multiple organ failures then expect to drain every financial resource you stocked up on.  My wife and I decided we are going to stay active and do the best we can for our health, but we are not going to request being kept alive at all costs.  My mom and dad were taking like 10 or more prescriptions each, as just one indicator of a failing body.  Fortunately all of us siblings were doing fine on our own and we treasured the times with our parents and a financial legacy was immaterial.  But it was a close run for my mom; a few more years and should would have been in a tight place.

Yes, do good financial planning and prepping.  But you have to decide how much of that you are willing to sacrifice for future medical and long-term care if it comes to that.  I would never want to drain our resources to stay alive a few more years and then leave my wife struggling.  While some in our family have undergone tremendous medical ordeals, many others have lived on their own and were active until the last week well into their 80s.  We have a plan for both (avoid one and do what we can to live the other).
Title: Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
Post by: David in MN on September 28, 2017, 07:00:09 AM
Saw Paul Ryan on CNBC this morning. I'll paraphrase:

"We're going to get tax cuts for the middle class because they live paycheck to paycheck."

He essentially said that line TWICE. If the middle class has no savings...  :facepalm: And I bet he has better numbers than I.

This is the mess.
Title: Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
Post by: bigbear on September 28, 2017, 08:22:17 AM
Saw Paul Ryan on CNBC this morning. I'll paraphrase:

"We're going to get tax cuts for the middle class because they live paycheck to paycheck."

He essentially said that line TWICE. If the middle class has no savings...  :facepalm: And I bet he has better numbers than I.

This is the mess.

Today's middle class has a consumer and fast-paced mindset in general.  That's why they live paycheck to paycheck.  Low income families have to live paycheck to paycheck.  Many middle class families choose to (obviously there are some exception for stuff like health, etc.).  But on paper, the income says these families are in the middle class. 

There are many luxuries that the middle class buys because the cash flow is there but the priorities are not.  Because we've chosen to run our kids from school to soccer practice to piano lessons on a daily basis, we "need" some efficiencies to smooth out the edges.  And then some of us have to show we're somebody special. 
Title: Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
Post by: bigbear on September 28, 2017, 09:20:46 AM
Because a lot of preppers are broke, ignorant of basic financial planning concepts, and persist in fantasizing about a future where it won't matter anyway.  Just look at any of the threads here on investing over the years, where the predominant sentiment is that the financial system is going to hell, money will soon be worthless, and an ammo can of silver is a wise retirement plan.  However, now that Trump is President and the future looks brighter for the average prepper, this world view may be changing.

I'm with Freelancer.  Fear of some type of financial crises is probably the number one reason why most preppers are here to begin with (it's how I got started, so I'll project that onto ya'll too).  In that sense, most of us are probably tight or concerned about it getting tight financially (aka broke).  But we also bear a sense of personal responsibility for ourselves and the ones we love.  So we prepare in ways we know.  We're trying to figure out how do we make do without money to grease the wheels.  So it's a interesting fantasy.  That's not a bad goal in one sense.  "But even if it doesn't" is the other sense.  Shouldn't we prepare for that as well?  Historically speaking, it's the most likely outcome.  Maintaining a balanced reasoned approach is key in all aspects of life. 

Budgets, investing, wills, taxes, insurance, and related topics are no different than any other skill (or threat).  Some of us haven't spent the time or just aren't interested in understanding finances.  Many of us probably did not come from a family where it was directly talked about much. 

That being said:  Are we each are preparing for different threats because of how likely we see them actually occurring?  Or are we just doing what we're told by prepper websites and forums? 

If it's the first, then our responses will vary.  But unless we have some logic behind our expectations, it's easy to get caught up in the fantasy.  Especially considering that some you have your tin foil hat strapped awfully tight!  ;)  Only when we have a less emotional foundation for our expectations can we make better decisions on how we prepare (specifically on how we invest our time and money). 

If it's the second, we're little better than lemmings and need to engage our brain to the world around us and our personal situation.
Title: Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
Post by: RitaRose1945 on September 28, 2017, 09:56:02 AM
That being said:  Are we each are preparing for different threats because of how likely we see them actually occurring?  Or are we just doing what we're told by prepper websites and forums? 

Yep.  For me, I'm in an area where we have virtually no natural disasters and rioting is pretty much non-existent.  Crime is definitely a thing, but fairly random, so you prep for it, but financial trouble is a MUCH more likely scenario in my little piece of the world, so I prep for that even more. 

But there's not a lot of discussion about it.  That doesn't mean nothing is happening, but I don't see a lot of threads on the benefits of various drop shipping methods, or which websites are legit for freelance writers and which just pay you in "exposure."
Title: Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
Post by: Smurf Hunter on September 28, 2017, 11:30:07 AM
Yep.  For me, I'm in an area where we have virtually no natural disasters and rioting is pretty much non-existent.  Crime is definitely a thing, but fairly random, so you prep for it, but financial trouble is a MUCH more likely scenario in my little piece of the world, so I prep for that even more. 

But there's not a lot of discussion about it.  That doesn't mean nothing is happening, but I don't see a lot of threads on the benefits of various drop shipping methods, or which websites are legit for freelance writers and which just pay you in "exposure."

I've only visited Las Vegas and similar climates a handful of times, but similar to Arizona, the prepper in me is rather paranoid about the loss of utilities in a desert climate. 
What if you had no grid power for a week in the summer?  No running water?

Sure, I've got the lingering risk of a biblical scale earthquake, but I've got fresh water (not necessarily potable) in 3 directions from me, and the temperatures are mild enough I won't die from exposure in a few hours.

Don't get me wrong, the remote risk of a long term grid down event is bad anywhere, but I just think adding extreme temperatures and a lack of natural water sources is an extra burden.
Title: Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
Post by: RitaRose1945 on September 28, 2017, 12:40:39 PM
I've only visited Las Vegas and similar climates a handful of times, but similar to Arizona, the prepper in me is rather paranoid about the loss of utilities in a desert climate. 
What if you had no grid power for a week in the summer?  No running water?

Sure, I've got the lingering risk of a biblical scale earthquake, but I've got fresh water (not necessarily potable) in 3 directions from me, and the temperatures are mild enough I won't die from exposure in a few hours.

Don't get me wrong, the remote risk of a long term grid down event is bad anywhere, but I just think adding extreme temperatures and a lack of natural water sources is an extra burden.

We generally have at least 6-8 gallons of potable water on hand at all times, plus food.

Life without electricity sucks, but it's survivable if you're relatively healthy, and we have a generator for when it's not.  Jay has lived here for about 40 years, and I worked outside in the heat (and occasional snow) here for several years, so being without AC would REALLY suck, but... we would live.

I have relatives less than 150 miles away if it came down to something involving the whole area, and that obviously wouldn't be the less than two hour drive it usually is.  But given my experience and previous jobs, I know I could even walk there, if the freeway was shut down and I had to, in less than a week.

We just don't get the earthquakes as bad as when I was in SoCal, and we do get monsoons, but they rarely last long and the flashflooding is fairly predictable, so they're not too hard to avoid.
Title: Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
Post by: Smurf Hunter on September 29, 2017, 09:47:08 AM
We generally have at least 6-8 gallons of potable water on hand at all times, plus food.

Life without electricity sucks, but it's survivable if you're relatively healthy, and we have a generator for when it's not.  Jay has lived here for about 40 years, and I worked outside in the heat (and occasional snow) here for several years, so being without AC would REALLY suck, but... we would live.

I have relatives less than 150 miles away if it came down to something involving the whole area, and that obviously wouldn't be the less than two hour drive it usually is.  But given my experience and previous jobs, I know I could even walk there, if the freeway was shut down and I had to, in less than a week.

We just don't get the earthquakes as bad as when I was in SoCal, and we do get monsoons, but they rarely last long and the flashflooding is fairly predictable, so they're not too hard to avoid.

I keep about 50 gallons long term potable water, and 150 gallons of "gray" rain water and of course hot water tanks, etc.
I have a family of four, and all that really just covers a few weeks at most with some rationing.  After that I can dig out the back country water filters and carry buckets from the river if things are THAT bad...
Title: Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
Post by: bigbear on September 29, 2017, 11:14:04 AM
Do either of you have a will? 
Title: Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
Post by: RitaRose1945 on September 29, 2017, 11:31:37 AM
Do either of you have a will?

That's the one thing I'm lacking, though my only assets are a paid off car worth about $5,500 and a mutual fund, which has beneficiaries named.


My bank account (other than the mutual fund) is quite small, and I don't own any real estate or property of any value.

But I know I do need one.  I'm just in a state of flux right now as far as where I will be in the next year.  I could have a drastically different life by then.
Title: Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
Post by: Black November on September 29, 2017, 11:43:10 AM
It is wise to save, but unwise to let others tell you how to invest.

https://www.dinkytown.net/retirement.html (https://www.dinkytown.net/retirement.html)
Title: Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
Post by: bigbear on September 29, 2017, 01:42:21 PM
That's the one thing I'm lacking, though my only assets are a paid off car worth about $5,500 and a mutual fund, which has beneficiaries named.


My bank account (other than the mutual fund) is quite small, and I don't own any real estate or property of any value.

But I know I do need one.  I'm just in a state of flux right now as far as where I will be in the next year.  I could have a drastically different life by then.

Understood.  And I really wasn't trying to call you out.  I was just trying to point out the 'prepper' focus on some things (like beans and bullets) but not on others (like finances, POA, wills...).  Obviously, our mileage my vary because these types of things impact families to varying degrees.

Full disclosure:  I've drafted a few wills, but never have had it notarized...  So I'm pretty much write there with you.  Maybe worse sense I have 5 young kids.
Title: Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
Post by: mountainmoma on September 29, 2017, 02:07:57 PM
Understood.  And I really wasn't trying to call you out.  I was just trying to point out the 'prepper' focus on some things (like beans and bullets) but not on others (like finances, POA, wills...).  Obviously, our mileage my vary because these types of things impact families to varying degrees.

Full disclosure:  I've drafted a few wills, but never have had it notarized...  So I'm pretty much write there with you.  Maybe worse sense I have 5 young kids.

notarizing depends on the state, it is not legal to notarize a will in the state of California. You just sign them. You can have witnesses sign that they witnessed you signing. But, no notarizing. So, the notary cant witness. Maybe just part of the California fear of litigation ( a will is a legal document, and they dont want it construed that the notary was saying it was legal ? )
Title: Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
Post by: David in MN on September 29, 2017, 02:53:16 PM
It's also out of fashion. We just don't share our personal information. I grew up in a family where estate planning was common dinner conversation. And I'm a trader. So I have no problem blurting out all my opinions and recent trades. But nobody else does. Outside a couple little cliques I have where this is acceptable and some really good online friends I have in a mastermind group of traders Even my family doesn't get it.

It took about a decade of success before people even asked my thoughts. And when the family started asking my opinion I rapidly found that many suffer from buying almost the same fund at 3 different companies.  :-\ That's not portfolio management. And as bad, they had no strategy. I own Amazon and ConEd. One is a growth and one is a dividend. Both strategies are fine as long as you know what they are and why you're doing them. And not having a strategy is very risky.

When I talked to my mom in August I told her that in July I returned 9.3%. She called me "lucky". Maybe Taleb was right about traders. But you'd think my own mom (who actually taught me how to invest) would ask what I did. It's taboo.

I do have a will and power of attorney set up. And an attorney on retainer.

I would recommend people find any organization or club in your area for business owners, self employed, and entrepreneurs. Talking with them for a while will change your views. They're not afraid to talk money and they talk about it differently. I was lucky to be mentored by a restaurateur and a scrap metal recycler.  Learned a lot.

I better stop this rant. This is more than I intended to share anyway. Suffice to say the second you start talking about finance most people brand you a heretic. It's been my experience that the most wealthy people I know don't follow the conventional wisdom. They talk about it.
Title: Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
Post by: Carl on September 29, 2017, 02:58:59 PM
  Will? All I will leave behind is a huge debt and a hole in the ground.
Title: Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
Post by: Smurf Hunter on September 29, 2017, 03:34:46 PM
Do either of you have a will?

I have a will and life insurance for a bit more than 10x my annual income.
Title: Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
Post by: David in MN on September 29, 2017, 03:44:19 PM
Will, insurance, power of attorney, attorney with retainer, and am in the process of building a trust. That said, Trump's tax plan eliminates the inheritance tax so we all might find it  easier to hand down a business or some pass through situation.

I do worry about my daughter inheriting my active portfolios.
Title: Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
Post by: Smurf Hunter on September 29, 2017, 04:30:34 PM
I do worry about my daughter inheriting my active portfolios.

That brings up a crap ton of complexities.  Assuming that's not on auto-pilot, liquidation may be the safe course.  Then that leads to tax implications, etc.
Title: Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
Post by: Mr. Bill on September 30, 2017, 10:40:55 AM
...But my Dad slipped into Parkinsons which includes a form of mental impairment.  Before my mom realized it he had sold out their waterfront home for a song ("it's my damn money and I can do with as I want!"), then sold their annuity for some hairbrained investment, and canceled their long-term care insurance they paid into for 20 years. ...

You have my sympathy, NWPilgrim.  My father-in-law also had Parkinson's.  Luckily he turned over his financial affairs to my wife before he became incompetent to handle them.  My own dad is recovering from a traumatic brain injury, so I'm handling most of the money stuff for him and my mom.

We could have a whole separate thread on "preparing for becoming mentally disabled".  It doesn't fit into the prepper mythos, but it's gonna happen to a lot of us.

Regarding the original question ("Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?"), I think privacy is a big reason, especially online.  You can't hardly say two words about your own financial planning without revealing a lot about your income and savings level.  For example, "What's the best way to buy 10 oz of silver?" vs "What's the best way to buy 10 oz of gold?"  I'm not sure what we can do about this, besides posting very general and vague information for each other.
Title: Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
Post by: Carl on September 30, 2017, 11:08:53 AM
You have my sympathy, NWPilgrim.  My father-in-law also had Parkinson's.  Luckily he turned over his financial affairs to my wife before he became incompetent to handle them.  My own dad is recovering from a traumatic brain injury, so I'm handling most of the money stuff for him and my mom.

We could have a whole separate thread on "preparing for becoming mentally disabled".  It doesn't fit into the prepper mythos, but it's gonna happen to a lot of us.

Regarding the original question ("Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?"), I think privacy is a big reason, especially online.  You can't hardly say two words about your own financial planning without revealing a lot about your income and savings level.  For example, "What's the best way to buy 10 oz of silver?" vs "What's the best way to buy 10 oz of gold?"  I'm not sure what we can do about this, besides posting very general and vague information for each other.

Not for mental illness,though some might argue the fact, but i also have been preparing for a long trip and planning to hand over my financial stuff just after I leave.
Title: Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
Post by: RitaRose1945 on September 30, 2017, 12:19:39 PM
We could have a whole separate thread on "preparing for becoming mentally disabled".  It doesn't fit into the prepper mythos, but it's gonna happen to a lot of us.

Not for mental illness,though some might argue the fact, but i also have been preparing for a long trip and planning to hand over my financial stuff just after I leave.


I think a thread for each would be a really good idea.

You have my sympathy, NWPilgrim.  My father-in-law also had Parkinson's.  Luckily he turned over his financial affairs to my wife before he became incompetent to handle them.  My own dad is recovering from a traumatic brain injury, so I'm handling most of the money stuff for him and my mom.

I'm in full agreement.  My dad had Parkinsons (diagnosed in 1988 and passed away in 2003) and it is brutal.  The average guy thinks it's just about the shaking, but that's not even close to the worst part of it.

And I had a TBI myself in 2011, followed by a less serious concussion seven months later.  My personality changed for a while, and I was angry almost constantly.  Thanfully, I'm back to my old self, with the minor addition of occasional panic attacks, but being out of control of your brain and your emotions is VERY frightening.
Title: Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
Post by: David in MN on September 30, 2017, 12:32:35 PM
When my grandmother passed she had none of her finances in order. It was a mess. She had accounts with banks, credit unions, co-ops, contracts for the farm, a brokerage, and a barn full of 90% garbage and 10% priceless antiques.

There are so many reasons why you need to have a plan to transition control of your finances. We put together an action plan for us. It's also nice to have a digital pho album of all the assets (guns, jewelry, art) that you would want next of kin to recognize as valuable.
Title: Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
Post by: Carl on September 30, 2017, 12:40:12 PM
  Mine is pretty much just a BUGOUT as I know where I'm going,just not when.
Title: Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
Post by: FreeLancer on September 30, 2017, 04:25:42 PM
Regarding the original question ("Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?"), I think privacy is a big reason, especially online.  You can't hardly say two words about your own financial planning without revealing a lot about your income and savings level.  For example, "What's the best way to buy 10 oz of silver?" vs "What's the best way to buy 10 oz of gold?"  I'm not sure what we can do about this, besides posting very general and vague information for each other.

That's certainly true. 

But it's been true in meatspace for generations, as well.  It's one of the big reasons why financial illiteracy is endemic, because nobody wants to talk about it, for fear of revealing information about themselves they'd rather people not know.
Title: Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
Post by: Morning Sunshine on September 30, 2017, 04:39:08 PM
That's certainly true. 

But it's been true in meatspace for generations, as well.  It's one of the big reasons why financial illiteracy is endemic, because nobody wants to talk about it, for fear of revealing information about themselves they'd rather people not know.

there is also the current idea that those with money did something immoral to get said money.  We have a good friend (young, 30s) - we will call him J - who sold his accounting company for A LOT of money.  His family knew he had a lot of money but not how much.  A few years ago, he was able to buy the family farm from his elderly grandfather, whose own children were trying to get their inheritance early, so to speak, by tricking grandpa into signing documents, etc.  His mom, who was not involved in her siblings shenanigans, knew how much J had paid to his grandfather AND how much J paid to settle with his aunts and uncles who were going to sue him for getting involved.  She was ASHAMED that J had that much money.  She was grateful in a weird way that he was able to do all of that, but mostly she was getting after him for having that much money, like it was a bad and terrible thing.

No wonder people with money do not talk about it.
Title: Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
Post by: FreeLancer on September 30, 2017, 06:22:10 PM
there is also the current idea that those with money did something immoral to get said money.

I don’t think it’s a modern prejudice. Compounding interest has been considered a particularly heinous form of usury since ancient times. The concept of placing one’s assets at risk for potential exponential returns on investment isn’t easily comprehensible, so most assume it must be some nefarious form of black magic.

Maybe they’re right, but once you understand the power of compounding and accept the reality that that is how the financial world works, those rewards are available to anyone with the willingness to participate. Amazing investment returns are accessible to everyone.
Title: Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
Post by: David in MN on October 01, 2017, 08:36:42 PM
There's a modern belief in the fact that the market trends up so it will always trend up. There's even the belief that held long enough the Great Depression was just a blip. This is how I was raised.

I now believe it's a different game. If your retirement date was in the 1930s your life was ruined. But wait. that was before our golden years were tied to the market.

The modern market is one where your brokerage takes a meager 1% for granting you the favor of risking your retirement on its fund. He makes his money whether or not you do. He supplies the product, you supply the risk.

And we live in a time where we are taught that small incremental additions to our funds will make a retirement but small fees are good for us. Adding through a sieve is good and paying out a siphon is good.

The worst is that, at the end of the day, we're stuck at gambling on nonsense. We buy "target 2054" or "blue chip growth" as though we're investors. An investor buys for a reason. A strategy.

I currently hold a couple funds because it would be more costly to get exposure any other way. I use REITs and and other such vehicles to  give me access to things I can't do outright.

I don't have retirement in many managed funds anymore. Some make sense. But if I value a 3% dividend better than a 2% there's no reason to be in a fund if I can pick a few on my own.

Empower yourself. It's harder but you make a lot more.

Title: Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
Post by: FreeLancer on October 01, 2017, 11:49:54 PM
No argument from me about the pitfalls of actively managed mutual funds. 

No argument that markets move up and down, often violently, when measured in periods of a few years. either.  That's the nature of the market.  But over decades the trend for broad stock indexes is up.

So what's wrong with Average Joe buying and holding a broad stock index fund that will reap 10% returns over a 20-40 year period?  (Besides the unfortunate fact that most people lack the ability to actually buy and hold.)
Title: Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
Post by: David in MN on October 02, 2017, 05:45:38 AM
So what's wrong with Average Joe buying and holding a broad stock index fund that will reap 10% returns over a 20-40 year period?  (Besides the unfortunate fact that most people lack the ability to actually buy and hold.)

Nothing. It's just really hard to know what that vehicle is. Past performance is not what matters. Many pension plans are underwater because they assumed 8% doing exactly this.

And I don't trust many of the funds that claim to do it. Many make the dividends disappear. Dividends represent 70% of realized gain on average. Many have load. If gaining 10% annum (I assume) makes you rich losing 1-2% is surely highway robbery.

Last, I worry that people feel diversified in buying a fund. The S&P 500 is generally the most diversified approach and we even call it "buying the market". Well, what about the Hang Seng? Nekkei? FTSE? If we're going to be prudent, surely we want some money out of dollars in case of a currency issue or some kind of natural disaster unique to North America.

So when the "average guy" struts up to someone who knows how investing works and proclaims he bought a diversified fund we giggle. We think we're looking at a guy who tossed his dividends, took on load, and "diversified" in one country. Just cause it worked for a while.

It's not fun or easy to dig through financial statements, to analyze COGS, EBIT, same store sales, margins, operations, energy, etc. Being an analyst for one industry is a full time job. But then again we're talking about the castle keep.
Title: Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
Post by: Carl on October 02, 2017, 06:16:11 AM
  When stock market profit is equal to inflation,why do people think they are making profit?

Title: Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
Post by: David in MN on October 02, 2017, 07:51:36 AM
  When stock market profit is equal to inflation,why do people think they are making profit?

Even worse, you could be claiming a 12.53% increase in the S&P during a year where the dollar lost 11%. Add in inflation and you're negative. I guess it's a good thing we don't aggregate this data.
Title: Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
Post by: Carl on October 02, 2017, 08:02:51 AM
Even worse, you could be claiming a 12.53% increase in the S&P during a year where the dollar lost 11%. Add in inflation and you're negative. I guess it's a good thing we don't aggregate this data.

That is why I buy silver by the $1K bag and sell collector coins on Ebay etc. I have multiplied my 'investment' to well over what the market has done especially when $2.37 silver went to way over $74 when the Hunts were involved and 3 months later the price went back to $3.53 and I bought again...
do the math on that gain.
Title: Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
Post by: David in MN on October 02, 2017, 03:12:50 PM
I've never sold any metals. I don't really see them as an investment. Gold and silver are like the winnings I've taken off the table. It's a risk balance. Even my paper gold rarely moves.

I believe that you need some level of of securities to build a retirement. I tend to favor dividends over growth. I can come across like zerohedge (because we are both traders) but opportunities exist. My personal point of view is that the money needs to come out of the bankers and brokers who live on yachts by 'taking a little off the top'.

Plenty of people are going to say, "I bought the Fidelity Contrafund and did great". Yes, you did. And maybe I'm a little inside baseball for the average guy. Even my wife won't talk finance with me. I hear "you take care of it" a lot.

If I sound like we're getting screwed by our financial system it's because I do think it. But it might still be the best option around. I'd love to resurrect Ben Graham and have a chat about what he would say about these days.
Title: Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
Post by: Carl on October 02, 2017, 03:31:04 PM
  My situation was more luck than skill but I never was secure in the fluctuations of the stock market as they try to 'tax' you at every turn and stock value has so little to do with reality..
Title: Re: Why don't more preppers talk about financial stuff?
Post by: FreeLancer on October 02, 2017, 09:13:37 PM
So what's wrong with Average Joe buying and holding a broad stock index fund that will reap 10% returns over a 20-40 year period?  (Besides the unfortunate fact that most people lack the ability to actually buy and hold.)

Nothing. It's just really hard to know what that vehicle is. Past performance is not what matters. Many pension plans are underwater because they assumed 8% doing exactly this.

And I don't trust many of the funds that claim to do it. Many make the dividends disappear. Dividends represent 70% of realized gain on average. Many have load. If gaining 10% annum (I assume) makes you rich losing 1-2% is surely highway robbery.

Last, I worry that people feel diversified in buying a fund. The S&P 500 is generally the most diversified approach and we even call it "buying the market". Well, what about the Hang Seng? Nekkei? FTSE? If we're going to be prudent, surely we want some money out of dollars in case of a currency issue or some kind of natural disaster unique to North America.

You're still talking about actively managed, high-ish cost funds, though. 

I'm talking about passively managed, ultra-low cost, truly broad market index funds. 

Don't conflate the two.