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Armory, Self Defense, And EDC => Firearms (Including Long Guns, Pistols) => Modern Rifles, Shotguns and Carbines => Topic started by: David in MN on April 29, 2018, 10:14:42 AM

Title: Article praising the Shotgun
Post by: David in MN on April 29, 2018, 10:14:42 AM
An interesting read even if it is all stuff I already knew.

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/the-shotgun-the-ultimate-gun-the-planet-25573

It's easy to forget how "Americana" the shotgun is. To those of us who grew up in farm families it's like a rake or shovel. Old and beat up and laying about like any other tool. It's odd to think of it as a "weapon of war" but I suppose you pluck any kid off the farm and a Winchester or Remington pump is a natural tool.

In a world going crazy about AR 15 pattern rifles it's worth remembering that if I could only have one gun it'd be a shotgun.
Title: Re: Article praising the Shotgun
Post by: Redman on April 29, 2018, 01:08:55 PM
Yup. Out of all the pump, semi-auto, over and under 12 ga. and other shotguns I've had/have. My favorite was an inexpensive pawn shop special side by side .410.
Title: Re: Article praising the Shotgun
Post by: CharlesH on April 29, 2018, 02:52:27 PM
Good article.  I’m a firm believer in a shotgun as the best all purpose firearm for the homestead or farm.  While my .22 gets more use as a varmit gun, the shotgun is what I want for home defense and for nuisance birds like Canada Geese.  A 7or 8 shot trap load works well for both.
Title: Re: Article praising the Shotgun
Post by: flyfisher66048 on April 29, 2018, 04:39:40 PM
Pretty good video on terminal ballistics of a shotgun.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b4sVQ_ZwI04


Title: Re: Article praising the Shotgun
Post by: Mr. Bill on April 29, 2018, 10:01:40 PM
I only have one complaint about shotguns: when you and your wife are firearms novices and that nice trustworthy ex-cop in the pawn shop persuades you that you should really buy a 12-gauge instead of the 16-gauge you wanted and the first thing you learn is IT REALLY HURTS TO SHOOT and so you put the shotgun under the bed and don't practice and wait years before you buy a firearm that you actually enjoy shooting.

But yeah, other than that... 8)
Title: Re: Article praising the Shotgun
Post by: CharlesH on April 30, 2018, 04:09:15 AM
Good point.  People should be warned about the kick some of the heavier loads carry and have proper expectations for what that first round is going to feel like..
Title: Re: Article praising the Shotgun
Post by: Carl on April 30, 2018, 07:33:43 AM
Good point.  People should be warned about the kick some of the heavier loads carry and have proper expectations for what that first round is going to feel like..

BUT there are many 'lighter' recoil loads and even LESS THAN LETHAL loads for the shotgun and I mostly use the NINE PELLET 00 Buck loads that allow me to send lead down range with a much higher (30 Caliber) pellet count than an AR15 with a bump stock. Those who have issue with recoil should look into the semi-auto shotguns and or somewhat heavier shotguns to lessen recoil...remember that lighter recoil loads are available and there is a reason that NEWTONS LAW is called a law.
Title: Re: Article praising the Shotgun
Post by: DDJ on April 30, 2018, 10:48:23 AM
 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Article praising the Shotgun
Post by: Smurf Hunter on April 30, 2018, 11:32:18 AM
You'll never find ammo in 16 gauge, at least not easily.

I have an 870 express with two barrels.  a 28" with removable choke and a cut down 19". 

The felt recoil from the two barrels is night and day.  The longer barrel makes shooting 00 buck tolerable for a longish practice session.
But I don't often want to shoot more than a dozen from the 19" barrel.

As Carl mentions, you can now find 12ga buck in reduce recoil flavors.  This does help.  You can also drop down to #4 shot.  It's all trade offs. 
20ga will be easier still, but you're sending less payload down range for a given shot size compared to 12ga.

That all said, maybe it should hurt (me) a little to unleash so much awesome power. 
Title: Re: Article praising the Shotgun
Post by: David in MN on April 30, 2018, 12:58:08 PM
There's so much flexibility these days. Semi-autos are light enough to carry. You can by an inertial system or a gas system that reduces recoil even further. Even a humdrum pump can have a recoil reducing aftermarket stock added. My father in law is very recoil sensitive and he uses a heavily padded shooting vest. While the article calls out that the technology for why shotguns work fundamentally hasn't changed in 300 years the platforms have dramatically improved since the days where we all needed to use a pump.

That's why I love  the shotgun so much. One gun off the shelf does almost all possible sporting, hunting, and even self defense. Besides, if the old guy down the road can only handle an upland game load, it's better than a club. And I wouldn't call him "disarmed".
Title: Re: Article praising the Shotgun
Post by: Mr. Bill on April 30, 2018, 02:53:30 PM
You'll never find ammo in 16 gauge, at least not easily. ...

Probably true.  The shotgun purchase I was describing was way back around 1987, and I don't really recall whether we were looking for a 16 gauge or a 20.  We did end up with a very nice hardly-used 12 gauge, and it's still hardly-used three decades later. ;D

I'm just griping that we got talked into a first firearm purchase that put us off firearms for a good many years.  It was our own fault for being uneducated newbies, but if I were making a recommendation to an uneducated newbie today, I'd suggest starting with a firearm that's easy and fun to shoot, and then add a shotgun later.
Title: Re: Article praising the Shotgun
Post by: Smurf Hunter on April 30, 2018, 03:45:04 PM
Probably true.  The shotgun purchase I was describing was way back around 1987, and I don't really recall whether we were looking for a 16 gauge or a 20.  We did end up with a very nice hardly-used 12 gauge, and it's still hardly-used three decades later. ;D

I'm just griping that we got talked into a first firearm purchase that put us off firearms for a good many years.  It was our own fault for being uneducated newbies, but if I were making a recommendation to an uneducated newbie today, I'd suggest starting with a firearm that's easy and fun to shoot, and then add a shotgun later.

A pump action shotgun is "simple" to shoot.  I suppose "fun" is subjective.  Hard to beat a .22 rifle for marksmanship fundamentals.
But a shotgun is a different then than a rifle...
Title: Re: Article praising the Shotgun
Post by: CharlesH on April 30, 2018, 04:46:50 PM
BUT there are many 'lighter' recoil loads and even LESS THAN LETHAL loads for the shotgun and I mostly use the NINE PELLET 00 Buck loads that allow me to send lead down range with a much higher (30 Caliber) pellet count than an AR15 with a bump stock. Those who have issue with recoil should look into the semi-auto shotguns and or somewhat heavier shotguns to lessen recoil...remember that lighter recoil loads are available and there is a reason that NEWTONS LAW is called a law.
 
  So do I (8 or 9 shot, 1150-1250 FPS).  I was referring more to people getting their first firearm.  Not all sellers do as good a job of setting expectations as they could.  That’s no cut on them,  it up here the gun stores are always very busy.  And ammo is “grab it yourself from the shelf”.  I can see where a newbie might end up with some #4 buck that packs an awesome punch and not realize that the gun doesn’t have to kick that hard.
Title: Re: Article praising the Shotgun
Post by: archer on April 30, 2018, 04:49:24 PM
I only have one complaint about shotguns: when you and your wife are firearms novices and that nice trustworthy ex-cop in the pawn shop persuades you that you should really buy a 12-gauge instead of the 16-gauge you wanted and the first thing you learn is IT REALLY HURTS TO SHOOT and so you put the shotgun under the bed and don't practice and wait years before you buy a firearm that you actually enjoy shooting.

But yeah, other than that... 8)

i got these for home defense:
 Lightfield Home Defender 12 Gauge Ammunition 5 Rounds 2-3/4" HV Star 850fps
https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/lightfield-home-defender-12ga-2-3-4-hv-star-850-fps-5rds-784268999992.do
2 of them followed by 2 buckshot in my 12 guage

and these for big critters:
 Lightfield Wildlife Ctrl 12ga 2-3/4" Rubber Buckshot 700fps 5rds
https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/lightfield-wildlife-ctrl-12ga-2-3-4-rubber-buckshot-700fps-5rds-784268813144.do
Title: Re: Article praising the Shotgun
Post by: machinisttx on May 06, 2018, 12:19:58 PM
You'll never find ammo in 16 gauge, at least not easily.


This is about 80% false. There isn't as much selection and stores don't stock as much of it, but it's not hard to find. I have several 16's and have spent more time hunting with them than my 12's since I obtained them. I don't live in or near a large population center, and don't have any problems at all finding ammo locally(except during dove season), including buckshot. No problems finding it even during dove season if I drive down to the Dallas area, and there is always online shopping.

Even having said the above, I keep a 12 gauge ready for HD duty. Mine is loaded with 3" 000 buck. If I need to use it, I'm not going to notice the recoil, and I certainly don't want less power.
Title: Re: Article praising the Shotgun
Post by: Carl on May 06, 2018, 02:22:38 PM
  There are several factors that determine recoil of a shotgun and 12 /16 / 20 gauge have little or nothing to do with it ...Weapon DESIGN and weight....WEIGHT OF SHOT LOAD and velocity ...the mind of the shooter all factor in....most game loads are near identical for 12-16-20 gauge and all other factors equal means they will all have the same felt recoil. I always pick the 12 gauge as the largest assortment of shot and velocity loadings are available and often more readily available ...Would I buy 16 gauge?? Yes ,if it fit my shotgun...but caliber is the only reason I would choose 16 over 12 or 20 gauge.
Title: Re: Article praising the Shotgun
Post by: Smurf Hunter on May 07, 2018, 01:06:03 PM
This is about 80% false. There isn't as much selection and stores don't stock as much of it, but it's not hard to find. I have several 16's and have spent more time hunting with them than my 12's since I obtained them. I don't live in or near a large population center, and don't have any problems at all finding ammo locally(except during dove season), including buckshot. No problems finding it even during dove season if I drive down to the Dallas area, and there is always online shopping.

Even having said the above, I keep a 12 gauge ready for HD duty. Mine is loaded with 3" 000 buck. If I need to use it, I'm not going to notice the recoil, and I certainly don't want less power.

$5 at the WalMart or similar big box store has 12g in #7 or #8 7 days a week.

To Carl's point.  Even with the ubiquitous 12g if I am shooting those cheap walmart target loads, there's negligible recoil.  It's when I get to #4 and smaller my rem 870 starts to kick.
Title: Re: Article praising the Shotgun
Post by: Carl on May 07, 2018, 01:11:19 PM
  Velocity X Mass  will get recoil every time
Title: Re: Article praising the Shotgun
Post by: Smurf Hunter on May 07, 2018, 01:18:22 PM
  Velocity X Mass  will get recoil every time

As I recall, energy = mass * velocity^2  ;D

So that's why a .223 moving @ 3000fps has around 1200 ft*lbs of force, but a similar projectile from a .22lr moving at half the speed has only 10% of the energy at the muzzle.

I'm generally a fan of firearms that can support a wide range in velocities/pressures.  Shotguns and wheel guns are high on that list, because of their versatility.
Title: Re: Article praising the Shotgun
Post by: Carl on May 07, 2018, 02:10:04 PM
  I was going easy on them....shotgun is also well suited as a NON-LETHAL  weapon with many ammo choices like rubber ball and batons ,bean bags,tear gas,flash bangs and even taser rounds.