The Survival Podcast Forum

Farm, Garden and The Land => Live Stock, Critters and Aquaculture => Topic started by: David in MN on October 22, 2018, 09:17:42 AM

Title: Getting Rid of Stray Cats... Ethically
Post by: David in MN on October 22, 2018, 09:17:42 AM
We have a number of strays (maybe 3 or 4) that now call our block home.I might have mentioned before that I am deathly allergic but it hit a headwind the other day when a stray tried to come cuddle up next to my daughter. They eyes are open now. Turns out my neighbor is feeding them.

I'm not some heartless jerk who would 'get the shotgun' or leave out a bowl of antifreeze (both things my grandfather did and I can't abide). But I also don't want to fry a cat turning on my car on a cold day or find a cat squatting in my shop. I'm also not thrilled about people leaving out food for wild animals because we aren't that far from state land and our town routinely has sightings of bobcat, lynx, badger, skunk, and worst of all mountain lions.

I'm also not the type to call the police and make a big stink because I'm sure every last one of us violates some stupid edict about zoning and I like our quite block. But I also don't want to live in some European backwater where mangy strays rule the roads.

I'm avoiding the conversation with the neighbor. I get it. They have a kid and putting out some cat food seems like the nice thing to do. They're just being kindhearted so I'm being nice about it.

Is there a simple way to get a cat to avoid my yard? I've thought about fencing the back yard as one of my great fears is finding a pile of kittens in the garden. Maybe I just need to mellow out and let cats roam my yard. I don't know. Any feedback or ideas would be appreciated.
Title: Re: Getting Rid of Stray Cats... Ethically
Post by: chad on October 22, 2018, 09:52:50 AM
Maybe a live trap?
Title: Re: Getting Rid of Stray Cats... Ethically
Post by: mountainmoma on October 22, 2018, 10:57:07 AM
You cant just live trap cats, because people are allowed to have cats and cats jump and climb, we cant lock them in our yards like dogs.  A live trap will catch other peoples pets.  If your neighbors are feeding, it is hard to draw the line, they may be rightly classified as pets by now. 

That said, does your area have a low cost/free spay neuter program for feral cats ? Find out, either yes or no offer to help  pay the spay fee to the neighbor so you do not get kittens.  So, nip it in the bud. 

You do need to up the barriers to keep cats out of at least the back yard.  Oh, it looks like you dont even have a fence yet ?  OK, of course you need a fence, but you want it to be of a design or material to discourage cats climbing over it.  Explain to your neighbors that you are not being unfriendly but you need to have a cat free area to go outside in.  Out here fences are redwood, but that is easy for cats to climb as their claws stick to it, it is like climbing a tree.  Possibly chain link and high enough that they cant just jump to the top.
Title: Re: Getting Rid of Stray Cats... Ethically
Post by: fritz_monroe on October 22, 2018, 02:05:31 PM
We had 6 feral cats in the area when we had out townhouse.  We used live traps to catch them.  Then called animal control.  Animal control took them away and would deliver them to a shelter.

In my county, if you can show that a neighbor is feeding them, then that neighbor has claimed ownership.  That neighbor is then required to do all the stuff that comes with owning a pet.  License for each of them mainly.  But the county also required rabies shots for each of them and some other counties require other shots for every pet.  Putting all that money out will certainly stop them from feeding a stray.

And I have to disagree, it is NOT your responsibility to keep someone else's animal out of your yard.  It is that neighbor's responsibility to keep their animal under control.

A tin of herring will guarantee you catch something.  Of course it could be a raccoon, which animal control in my area will not take, I had to release that into a nearby park.

Title: Re: Getting Rid of Stray Cats... Ethically
Post by: mountainmoma on October 22, 2018, 02:18:56 PM
No matter your opinion, you cannot contain a cat like a dog, so no, it is not considered the owners responsibility to keep their cat out of your yard.  If you trap and relocate cats you know to be someone elses pets, you can and should be prosecuted.  If you have a real issue, go thru animal control. 

 Out here, if you believe they are feral, you work with animal control and they authorize if you can use a live trap, loan you one, and you give the cat to them.  If someone is feeding them, they are usually considered a pet, and yes, then they need shots and to be spayed and neutered, which will be done for free out here for semi-ferals, and then they notch the ear of the cat, so people can see it has been spayed.  You cannot just catch all cats that go into your yard.  The ferals and semi-ferals are released to people who agree to set out food and water for them, and they live out their lives outside but not having new kittens.  It is the tame ones, that dont know how to live outside, that can end up killed at animal control

If I was allergic, I would have a fence, as that is the only way to be safe

It is illegal to relocate racoons and other wild animals also, not just out here, everywhere I have heard of, it is considered crueler than just outright killing them, according to authorities and animal rights people, I guess they often either starve or get killed in a territorial dispute when dumped somewhere by a property owner.  SO they say. 
Title: Re: Getting Rid of Stray Cats... Ethically
Post by: Hurricane on October 22, 2018, 03:40:04 PM
Dog?

If you can fence your yard, a dog inside ought to discourage most cats. 
Title: Re: Getting Rid of Stray Cats... Ethically
Post by: fritz_monroe on October 22, 2018, 04:55:49 PM
No matter your opinion, you cannot contain a cat like a dog, so no, it is not considered the owners responsibility to keep their cat out of your yard.  If you trap and relocate cats you know to be someone elses pets, you can and should be prosecuted.  If you have a real issue, go thru animal control. 
I think this is directed at me.  Everything I did was through animal control.  I contacted them when the cats became a problem.  I was instructed to catch them and to call animal control to collect them.  If they are pets, they are required in this county to have a collar with a license attached.  None that I caught and had animal control pick up had collars.  And when I spoke to the people feeding them, I was told that they were just feeding strays.
Title: Re: Getting Rid of Stray Cats... Ethically
Post by: KellyAnn on October 22, 2018, 05:36:41 PM
I wish I knew the best answer to this question.
The apartment complex I live in has a MASSIVE population of stray cats, at least 50 or 60.  Probably more.
There are some "do-gooders" that leave plates of food out for them.  I do what I can, and go around collecting the food and throwing it in the trash, I've tried talking rationally to the people doing this, I've tried shouting irrationally at them.  The police don't care, because the people are putting the food on the apartment complex's side of the fence (feeding cats on the other side of the fence would be a violation) and our complex won't press charges.
I don't want to poison these cats, I'm not that sort of person, but I'd love to find something to make the food less palatable.  Cayenne pepper maybe?  Something that'll make the cats and other critters think "yuck" instead of "yum".

It's not just the cats that are the problem.
It's that with the cats come the skunks and the raccoons, and rabies.  Our family doesn't have pets, but a lot of our neighbors do, and some of them have kids that aren't smart enough to leave the critters alone.  I'd hate to see someones cat, dog or child get rabies.
Ironically, a mountain lion probably would help control the population, but as we're adjacent to trail used for walking, jogging and biking, a mountain lion would probably be destroyed or "re-homed" as soon as it was spotted.
Title: Re: Getting Rid of Stray Cats... Ethically
Post by: mountainmoma on October 22, 2018, 11:45:31 PM
Dog?

If you can fence your yard, a dog inside ought to discourage most cats.

Yes.  Great idea.
Title: Re: Getting Rid of Stray Cats... Ethically
Post by: mountainmoma on October 22, 2018, 11:53:04 PM
I wish I knew the best answer to this question.
The apartment complex I live in has a MASSIVE population of stray cats, at least 50 or 60.  Probably more.
There are some "do-gooders" that leave plates of food out for them.  I do what I can, and go around collecting the food and throwing it in the trash, I've tried talking rationally to the people doing this, I've tried shouting irrationally at them.  The police don't care, because the people are putting the food on the apartment complex's side of the fence (feeding cats on the other side of the fence would be a violation) and our complex won't press charges.
I don't want to poison these cats, I'm not that sort of person, but I'd love to find something to make the food less palatable.  Cayenne pepper maybe?  Something that'll make the cats and other critters think "yuck" instead of "yum".

It's not just the cats that are the problem.
It's that with the cats come the skunks and the raccoons, and rabies.  Our family doesn't have pets, but a lot of our neighbors do, and some of them have kids that aren't smart enough to leave the critters alone.  I'd hate to see someones cat, dog or child get rabies.
Ironically, a mountain lion probably would help control the population, but as we're adjacent to trail used for walking, jogging and biking, a mountain lion would probably be destroyed or "re-homed" as soon as it was spotted.

They need to be caught and neutered and put back, then they sill stop reproducing.  It is not a police issue, talk to animal control about shots and spay/neuter so this population can stop growing.  That is alot of cats, but causing them more suffering, starvation, does not sound like a good solution. That is what your are trying to do, have them not get fed.  Best practices, from what I am told, is to give them their rabies shots, spay neuter and release to a place where people will feed them to live out their lives without creating more kittens.  That is what all the animal control does out here, and it is working. 
Title: Re: Getting Rid of Stray Cats... Ethically
Post by: mountainmoma on October 23, 2018, 12:02:34 AM
I think this is directed at me.  Everything I did was through animal control.  I contacted them when the cats became a problem.  I was instructed to catch them and to call animal control to collect them.  If they are pets, they are required in this county to have a collar with a license attached.  None that I caught and had animal control pick up had collars.  And when I spoke to the people feeding them, I was told that they were just feeding strays.

I was responding to this part of what you said
Quote
And I have to disagree, it is NOT your responsibility to keep someone else's animal out of your yard.  It is that neighbor's responsibility to keep their animal under control.
How is it that cats are kept out of anothers yard by owners ? Keep a cat under control ? That is not the nature of cats, and it is not required that a cat owner keep a cat out of anywhere as it is not possible.

If you went thru animal control, you did it right. I was talking about in general trapping someone elses pet cats, as the cats around Dave may be pets to teh people feeding them.  You cant just trap them, you have to check the other neighbors also want them gone or consider them their pets

Sounds like your population was known strays, as you checked with your neighbors, which is the right call.  As far as collars for cats, good luck with that, your area may require them, but the logistics are not good, they are not dogs.  Some may keep their collars on, others will not, just depends.  Cats have to have breakaway collars because they climb.  Because they climb collars get caught on things, so to keep them from hanging themselves and choking to death, all cat collars are ( or should be, unless someone is putting a small dog collar on a cat) break away collars, so when the cat snags the collar on a tree branch or something, the collar breaks open, and the cat goes free, collarless.  I tried to keep collars on my cats for a while, they never lasted long enough. 
Title: Re: Getting Rid of Stray Cats... Ethically
Post by: David in MN on October 23, 2018, 09:29:01 AM
Sad to say this is a messy issue and not just for me. I can't get a dog; I'm allergic to them too. That's hard because I actually like dogs and wish I could play with them without the hives. I also get that a pet is part of the family. Part of the reason I can't hurt stray cats is that they got dropped off at the family farm and grandma did her best and eventually died with somewhere in the area of 15 cats. So I've got a weird hangup using traps on cats and dogs I don't have for other critters. I might not like (I don't) how my neighbors care for their dogs and cats but the animals are outside that calculation.

I also agree that it shouldn't be my responsibility but I'm also trying to be nice. A lot of this 'I feed the cuddly wild animals' bullshit is from nice people who grew up in cities and don't see wild animals the way those of us from the rural fringe do. My gun club has DNR permission to shoot all beaver on sight for the county because of flooding and guys from town don't believe it.

It's a rock and a hard place. I have no hostility to either the neighbors or the cats. People think they're doing a nice thing and the cats are just cats. So I'm in a position where I have to crap on a neighbor (either by talking or calling animal control) or put up with it and build a shield. I don't want to upset the neighbor or their kid but I also don't want my kid playing around stray cats and/or their poop.

It's rather telling that amongst us who generally agree it's still a hard issue. I get livid when people let their dogs lick me (I'm allergic and it's bad) but I don't want to see animals suffer needlessly. What can I say? It's a gray area.
Title: Re: Getting Rid of Stray Cats... Ethically
Post by: mountainmoma on October 23, 2018, 11:31:56 AM
You started this post, so I am going to respond, but I realy do not get it. 

You are very allergic.  regardless of stray cats,  your neighbors will have pet cats.  And,  pet cats are outside some, alot or all the time and there is no effective difference for your problem whether it is a stray or pet, you are allergic to cats.  Cats climb and jump very well, they go everywhere whether pets or strays.  I dont get what the dillema is.  If you are that allergic, you realy have no choice but to make your backyard as cat proof as you can. 


[PERSONAL ATTACK DELETED BY MODERATOR]

Quote
..the reason I cant hurt stray cats....
   The reason one does not hurt stray cats is that it is wrong to hurt animals.  We even have laws for food animals and hunting with the purpose to not hurt, to have a quick clean kill.  We also have societal norms to not kill animals without clear need or reason.  There is no correlation between the beaver story and the cats.  The cats are not causing that kind of problem, you personally are allergic.  The solution to stray cats is to catch and give shots and spay/neuter so that they do not carry disease ( see, the disease problem solved....) and do not reproduce and end up with starvation and suffering. 

You havent addressed this normal, supposed best practices solution:

-- call and ask animal control about free or very low cost programs that may exist to get shots and spaying to feral cats
-- ask your neighbors how attached they are to the various strays, and likely they are attached and like them hanging around, feral cats are often not strays, but they are just not tame, often they are just feral, outside cats
-- broach the topic then of having the cats get shots and spayed, so there is no disease and no starving kittens later on
-- the cats then are back in the neighborhood, the ones the neighbors area attached to anyways, disease free and not reproducing.

Responsibility.  Well, you are allergic.  How is that any of your neighbors responsibility ?  As they find out, they may learn to hold their dog back from licking you or not dump kittens in your lap, but I find that people have so much on their plate that they cannot seem to remember these things very well, the ones you are friends with at least should be able to.  But, you can do things to minimize your chances of exposure.  A fence.  Cats kept from reproducing.
Title: Re: Getting Rid of Stray Cats... Ethically
Post by: KellyAnn on October 23, 2018, 12:25:34 PM
They need to be caught and neutered and put back, then they sill stop reproducing.  It is not a police issue, talk to animal control about shots and spay/neuter so this population can stop growing.  That is alot of cats, but causing them more suffering, starvation, does not sound like a good solution. That is what your are trying to do, have them not get fed.  Best practices, from what I am told, is to give them their rabies shots, spay neuter and release to a place where people will feed them to live out their lives without creating more kittens.  That is what all the animal control does out here, and it is working.

It's a bit trickier than that.  First, because there IS a group that is doing the capture/spay(neuter)/release, but they're fighting an uphill battle at this point.  The area is a known dumping point for people that want to abandon their pets.

It IS a legal issue, as feeding animals on the multi-use trail is a violation of the local law.  If the police enforced that law then this would be a lot less likely to happen.  There's plenty of natural prey in the area for a population of cats, even one of this size.  If people *really* want to feed these cats, they can.  That's fine.  But they shouldn't be doing on the apartment complexes property.  There's plenty of non-residential space very close by where they can put out food.  But the people are too freaking lazy to walk a couple hundred feet up or down the trail, they'd rather park at the complex, put the food out (in front of their car), and then get back in their cars and drive away.

The people that live aren't the ones feeding these cats, but we ARE the ones that have cats sleeping on our cars, under the car hoods, cats pooping in our plants, dogs getting skunked, skunks spraying other critters and having a huge cloud of stink wafting where we live, and just all the general mess and mayhem that raccoons bring to the party.
If these people care so damn much, they should feed the strays on THEIR property, or at least walk down the trail a bit and leave the food where humans are living.
Title: Re: Getting Rid of Stray Cats... Ethically
Post by: Sailor on October 23, 2018, 01:53:35 PM
My neighbor has so much junk on his property he is getting over run with rats.  I spent 5k on a fence to keep them out  because I could not bear to set rat traps, that would be cruel. 

Our animal control also advised us to live trap any cats and call them.  BTW, it is very evident when whether or not you have a feral or pet cat in a live trap. 
Title: Re: Getting Rid of Stray Cats... Ethically
Post by: Ranger Red on October 24, 2018, 08:03:46 AM
If you want to own a pet you are responsible for what it does. Including getting into the neighbors yard. Either keep up with it or I will. I shouldn't have to cat proof my yard when i don't own one, you should yard proof your cat.
Title: Re: Getting Rid of Stray Cats... Ethically
Post by: Mr. Bill on October 24, 2018, 07:06:17 PM
MODERATOR NOTE:

Folks, we've had previous discussions on this topic, and they always get angry and personal.  People feel strongly about stray cats, one way or another.

Please keep to the topic ("Getting Rid of Stray Cats... Ethically"), and don't veer into personal attacks or hints about cat-killing.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Getting Rid of Stray Cats... Ethically
Post by: KellyAnn on October 24, 2018, 07:31:44 PM
As a side note...there's a way in the profile settings to put people on an ignore list.
It's a great feature :)
Title: Re: Getting Rid of Stray Cats... Ethically
Post by: Docwatmo on October 25, 2018, 08:55:44 AM
Since we already have a moderator moderating this thread, I'll throw my 2 cents in as a contributor.  This should be a simple problem to handle.  Regardless of how someone feels about stray animals.  The logical point of this thread is to find ways to combat the prevalence of stray and nuisance cats and to do it ethically (Which simply means, not poisoning or shooting them or using classic paw traps that can injure them).   

From a logical standpoint, using live traps to capture the animals and turning them over to animal management or the local humane society would be the single most ethical method for handling them.  Since they are a nuisance and legally an issue for local government, the processes of handing the animals over to the local government serves 2 purposes.   First, it takes care of the nuisance problem in the first place, and 2nd, it puts the pressure on the local government to take care of the problem, possibly by making higher fines for those caught dumping animals to help pay for the cost to care for them or more patrols or cameras in areas where animals are dumped to catch the perpetrators.     

This isn't a "Some animals are pets while others are vermin" conundrum.  Any animal that becomes a nuisance is subject to being removed.   As an example.  I have a friend who came home with his daughters one day and when they got out of their van, they saw some dead chickens in the yard.   He went inside to get his rifle in case the animal was still around while he checked it out.  (His wife and daughters left the van and were walking to the house) in the process of checking the chickens, he saw one of his neighbors (about a half mile away) dog in the yard.  it had broken open the rabbit hutch and killed his daughters pet rabbit.  As he walked toward it, his daughter saw and started running toward him and the dog, the dog started growling and protecting it's kill, and with his 6 year old daughter running toward the dog, he had no choice but to shoot it.   That was not a problem, there was nothing unethical about it simply because it was a dog.   The situation deemed it necessary.     

Yes, Dogs are pets, and so are Cats.  But that doesn't mean that once abandoned in the wild they do not become feral, or dangerous.  (I have seen cats starving to death in areas due to overpopulation of strays, it's heartbreaking). 

Of course the neighbor was livid and did everything he could for the next 6 months to make their lives a living hell.    The fault for not controlling the dog was on the neighbor.  They did absolutely nothing wrong.   This just indicates that the owner is and should always be 100% responsible.   

Strays cats are no different.  They can decimate local bird populations  (particularly ground or bush nesting birds and rabbits and other balanced indigenous life).  Even if an animal is live captured and turned in and later euthanized, the onus of that responsibility is still entirely on the owner.   

Ridding an area of stray cats can be done ethically.  It may not be easy, and it can be very time consuming.  But it can be done. 
Title: Re: Getting Rid of Stray Cats... Ethically
Post by: mountainmoma on October 25, 2018, 10:03:34 AM
Putting out adulterated pet food is illegal and cruel. Adding something to the food so they dont eat it -- well, 2 things will happen, they dont eat it and likely go hungry and starve, or they do eat it anyway and get sick and suffer.  This is not a way to help a situation of stray animals. 

It is also illegal.


But, to stay on topic for this thread, which is how someone allergic can have a cat free environment.  Someone allergic is also allergic to everyones pets, so it is not an issue of how to deal, or not deal with stray cats so much as how to minimize cat exposure and how to have a cat resistant, if not cat proof, area to hang out in
Title: Re: Getting Rid of Stray Cats... Ethically
Post by: mountainmoma on October 25, 2018, 10:09:22 AM
It is wrong and illegal to trap all cats that come into your yard.   We have a forum policy to not advocate  illegal activity....

As has been stated many times here,  go talk to your county animal control about proper procedures.  If you do not own or understand cats,  find out more about their expected behavior, they are not dogs and do not train or stay in fences.  These animals are domesticated and most are pets.  Even ones that are feral are often legal pets.  Talk to your neighbors,  dont just hurt or take their pets away.
Title: Re: Getting Rid of Stray Cats... Ethically
Post by: mountainmoma on October 25, 2018, 10:13:34 AM
As a side note...there's a way in the profile settings to put people on an ignore list.
It's a great feature :)

This is off topic and should be moderated and deleted
Title: Re: Getting Rid of Stray Cats... Ethically
Post by: mountainmoma on October 25, 2018, 10:18:23 AM
If you want to own a pet you are responsible for what it does. Including getting into the neighbors yard. Either keep up with it or I will. I shouldn't have to cat proof my yard when i don't own one, you should yard proof your cat.

While this is your opinion, it will not fly legally.  Cat owners are not obligated to do this, and it would be impossible  Please talk your county animal control about this.

The keep up with it or I will is a threat  -- what is it you are threatening ? To hurt, kill or take away your neighbors pets ? When your neighbor is doing everything legally , are you advocating breaking the law ? This is your first post on this forum ?  Did you read our policies on not advocating illegal activiity
Title: Re: Getting Rid of Stray Cats... Ethically
Post by: mountainmoma on October 25, 2018, 10:30:47 AM
Ok, dave, here is something that might be helpful !

I had forgotten about motion sensers on sprinklers.  Obviously you only have this on when you are not outside yourself, but it is a likely way to train cats to avoid your area and no-one gets hurt.   This is the same type thing as people put here use to discourage racoons from the garden. 

Also, here is an article with similar ideas

https://www.neighborhoodcats.org/how-to-tnr/colony-care/keeping-cats-out-of-gardens-and-yards-2
Title: Re: Getting Rid of Stray Cats... Ethically
Post by: mountainmoma on October 25, 2018, 10:34:06 AM
They also explain Trap, neuter, release, TNR, and why it is seen as best practice

https://www.neighborhoodcats.org/how-to-tnr/getting-started/what-is-tnr
Title: Re: Getting Rid of Stray Cats... Ethically
Post by: Sailor on October 25, 2018, 10:46:11 AM
In my area it is legal to live trap cats, or kill animals that are injuring your livestock on your property. 

It is also illegal to let your cat or dog off your property if it is not under your direct control "leash". 

Check your local laws, if you have problems, talk to your neighbors and try to resolve things before escalating things.
Title: Re: Getting Rid of Stray Cats... Ethically
Post by: David in MN on October 25, 2018, 11:42:57 AM
Ok, dave, here is something that might be helpful !

I had forgotten about motion sensers on sprinklers.  Obviously you only have this on when you are not outside yourself, but it is a likely way to train cats to avoid your area and no-one gets hurt.   This is the same type thing as people put here use to discourage racoons from the garden. 

Also, here is an article with similar ideas

https://www.neighborhoodcats.org/how-to-tnr/colony-care/keeping-cats-out-of-gardens-and-yards-2

That might work... Obviously I can't spray water until May(?) but that would really be a good system in warm weather. I like that it's not harmful and not a trap. Just a little discomfort and "please don't be here".

Also a little sad reading the article about cats pooping in sand boxes. I have an intent to build my daughter a sandbox and having her play in stray cat poop is low on my list.

MODERATOR NOTE:

Folks, we've had previous discussions on this topic, and they always get angry and personal.  People feel strongly about stray cats, one way or another.

Please keep to the topic ("Getting Rid of Stray Cats... Ethically"), and don't veer into personal attacks or hints about cat-killing.  Thanks.

Sorry. I know it's a tough one. It's maybe one of the hardest things to deal with and do right by the animals and keep neighbors friendly. That's how people like me get bottled into being kind and putting up with it. Almost every solution is horrible.
Title: Re: Getting Rid of Stray Cats... Ethically
Post by: mountainmoma on October 25, 2018, 12:39:54 PM
Most sandboxes are covered when not in use, a flexible cover is easiest to move ( canvas paint tarp, other tarping)
Title: Re: Getting Rid of Stray Cats... Ethically
Post by: KellyAnn on October 25, 2018, 01:09:13 PM
Also a little sad reading the article about cats pooping in sand boxes. I have an intent to build my daughter a sandbox and having her play in stray cat poop is low on my list.

The trick is to have a sandbox that you can cover when it's not in use.  A side benefit is that a cover of some sort would also help keep rain and snow and leaves and crud from getting in the sandbox.  The downside is that you have to be careful that you don't build a cover that could hurt your kid or other family members.  (Mostly the kids.)
Title: Re: Getting Rid of Stray Cats... Ethically
Post by: bigbear on October 25, 2018, 02:15:04 PM
https://www.americanhumane.org/fact-sheet/trapping-cats/

Quote
In most communities, it is not illegal to trap stray animals. Cats that are allowed to roam at large, outside the control of their caregivers, are indeed considered stray.

It seems most states have more defined stray dog laws.  But not many have stray cat rules (as MM says - cats are cats and dogs are dogs).  Either way, it seems like trapping is fine if you don't kill it and check the trap daily.  I always have a few traps open around my chicken coop/garden for raccoon, possum, rabbit, squirrel, and the like.  And I've trapped the neighbor's cat once (and released it).  It's what happens after live-trapping that can potentially cross a line.  If you do decide to trap, make sure you check it daily.  And close it when you're away for more than a day. 

Check with animal control about your options.  And then talk to your neighbor about your health concerns and potential options.  It could be as simple as he stops feeding them and they are off to greener pastures.  But if he doesn't know (or care) that he could literally be killing you or your daughter by his actions, then that speaks volumes.

https://www.outdoornews.com/2017/12/21/feral-cats-pose-threat-pennsylvania-wildlife-species-can-anyone/

Quote
The mystery behind feral cats in Pennsylvania is both puzzling and frustrating, and I’d love to have further clarification on the matter. Unlike the native wildlife species protected by the game code, which is upheld and enforced by annual Pennsylvania hunting and fur-taking license sales, feral cats seem to fall into a gray area of jurisdiction. We know they rob us all of wildlife, but what can anyone do about it?
Title: Re: Getting Rid of Stray Cats... Ethically
Post by: Ranger Red on October 25, 2018, 02:51:44 PM
I'm sorry but this post struck a familiar cord as I'm battling the same problem myself. I live on a large wooded lot in town with a creek in the back and I often see deer, coyotes, turkey and on one occasion a bobcat. I do not care for all the stray cats that also show up as they are the only ones who defecate and urinate in my flower bed, climb on my car scratching the hood, sleeping in my patio furniture leaving hair and muddy foot prints on the cushions.

In my area it is legal to trap any animal that enters my property as a nuisance animal as we have leash laws for both dogs and cats. I DO NOT advocate killing any animal that may be someones pet. I trap and call the animal control officer or take them to the shelter myself. If its a stray and I can't trap them, I discourage them by shooting them with a paintball gun. I figure if it comes home with enough orange paint on it you will question it and keep it home and the sting of the paintballs discourages them from coming back. I also use cage type traps.

So in answer to the post, ethically I recommend using a cage type trap and if your in an area that permits it use the paintball gun to keep them out of your yard. I recommend the cage traps because it makes it easier to transport them. I have also used foothold traps but it makes getting the animal out tougher. You have to throw a heavy blanket over them and try to release the trap jaws. Not too bad for a cat but a 30# racoon is a whole nuther ball game. Also you can minimize catching skunks if cats are your problem by elevating the trap to a table top. Cats will jump up on a table. Coons will find a way when you least expect it but skunks don't jump.
Title: Re: Getting Rid of Stray Cats... Ethically
Post by: mountainmoma on October 25, 2018, 05:31:42 PM
I'm sorry but this post struck a familiar cord as I'm battling the same problem myself. I live on a large wooded lot in town with a creek in the back and I often see deer, coyotes, turkey and on one occasion a bobcat. I do not care for all the stray cats that also show up as they are the only ones who defecate and urinate in my flower bed, climb on my car scratching the hood, sleeping in my patio furniture leaving hair and muddy foot prints on the cushions.

In my area it is legal to trap any animal that enters my property as a nuisance animal as we have leash laws for both dogs and cats. I DO NOT advocate killing any animal that may be someones pet. I trap and call the animal control officer or take them to the shelter myself. If its a stray and I can't trap them, I discourage them by shooting them with a paintball gun. I figure if it comes home with enough orange paint on it you will question it and keep it home and the sting of the paintballs discourages them from coming back. I also use cage type traps.

So in answer to the post, ethically I recommend using a cage type trap and if your in an area that permits it use the paintball gun to keep them out of your yard. I recommend the cage traps because it makes it easier to transport them. I have also used foothold traps but it makes getting the animal out tougher. You have to throw a heavy blanket over them and try to release the trap jaws. Not too bad for a cat but a 30# racoon is a whole nuther ball game. Also you can minimize catching skunks if cats are your problem by elevating the trap to a table top. Cats will jump up on a table. Coons will find a way when you least expect it but skunks don't jump.

cats are small, you would get prosecuted for hitting one with a paintball as that could do some damage to the cat, realy not the thing to do.  You would be prosecuted under the laws for cruelty to animals, no matter what animal, domestic or wild actually.  Look at the link I gave some posts up for legal and ethical deterrents.  If you are wanting to project something to deter a housecat, use a water gun, a super soaker.  Or, just have the motion sensor scarcrow sprinkler. Do not shoot peoples pets with any projectile ( unless you are protecting yourself or your livestock, of course. But domestic cats are not a danger to life and limb...)   If you catch a tame cat, a pet in a live trap, you need to release it if it is obvious it is one of your neighbors pets, knowingly relocating someones pet is not legal or ethical.   Around here, if it is not that tame, but has a notched ear, you also need to release it as it is a "pet" feral cat, in other words it has been thru animal control already, given shots, spayed and has been legally released and is being fed and taken care of by someone in the area.  Check with your county if you have a similar program.

I am curious what State and county you are in as I have never heard of such laws for cats.  What state is this ?
Title: Re: Getting Rid of Stray Cats... Ethically
Post by: Docwatmo on October 25, 2018, 08:24:26 PM
In my county, we have the same leash laws for cats and dogs.    You may live trap any animal that enters your property.  You must identify the animal and ensure it is not an endangered species (Like the Ornate Box Turtle), in which case you are required to release it at the edge of your property.    If it is not an endangered species, you may turn it in to animal control.  The only stipulation is if you trap a known pet on your property and you can identify the owner, you must contact the owner the first and second time.  If you catch it a third or consecutive time on your property, you may turn it over to animal control without notifying the owner.   

I was wondering about the notched ears in our area, and checked with the local humane society and they don't do that in this county.  It's strictly a volunteer function.  But even if they have notched ears, they still fall under the same code of ordinances.   




Title: Re: Getting Rid of Stray Cats... Ethically
Post by: mountainmoma on October 25, 2018, 08:33:32 PM
In my county, we have the same leash laws for cats and dogs.    You may live trap any animal that enters your property.  You must identify the animal and ensure it is not an endangered species (Like the Ornate Box Turtle), in which case you are required to release it at the edge of your property.    If it is not an endangered species, you may turn it in to animal control.  The only stipulation is if you trap a known pet on your property and you can identify the owner, you must contact the owner the first and second time.  If you catch it a third or consecutive time on your property, you may turn it over to animal control without notifying the owner.   

I was wondering about the notched ears in our area, and checked with the local humane society and they don't do that in this county.  It's strictly a volunteer function.  But even if they have notched ears, they still fall under the same code of ordinances.   

so, what county is that ?  I realy am curious.  Do they say how any of this can possibly be applied to cats ?  People think we are over legislated out here and illogical, which is often the case, but in this regard we are logical and the nature of cats is acknowledged.  No-one on this thread has said, so do you all not have cats ?  How in any practical way do you see cats able to abide these types of regulations ?  I would love to hear how you or your neighbors have trained cats to "stay" . I mean it.  DO you see cats only on leashes where you live ?

So, second question is, do you agree with this ?  Do you think it is practicle for cats ?
Title: Re: Getting Rid of Stray Cats... Ethically
Post by: Docwatmo on October 26, 2018, 06:41:21 AM
Yes, I have owned cats.  I love cats, equally to dogs.   And any pet can be a nuisance if not controlled by their owner.  My cat's were all indoor cats, I didn't let them roam the neighborhood because they were my responsibility.   If my cats were roaming and my neighbor had a complaint about them, I take full responsibility for them.    Stray's and dumped cats are a different story.  They have no human responsible for them.  The regulations simply protect property rights (One of the few laws that actually support liberty) and they apply across the board.  No treating any animals or people differently.  (Unless they are an endangered species).   

Thus humanely trapping them and turning them over to animal control is a simple, viable and perfectly acceptable option.   
Title: Re: Getting Rid of Stray Cats... Ethically
Post by: Ranger Red on October 26, 2018, 07:40:56 AM
so, what county is that ?  I realy am curious.  Do they say how any of this can possibly be applied to cats ?  People think we are over legislated out here and illogical, which is often the case, but in this regard we are logical and the nature of cats is acknowledged.  No-one on this thread has said, so do you all not have cats ?  How in any practical way do you see cats able to abide these types of regulations ?  I would love to hear how you or your neighbors have trained cats to "stay" . I mean it.  DO you see cats only on leashes where you live ?

So, second question is, do you agree with this ?  Do you think it is practicle for cats ?

Yes the same way you do a dog. It gets a leash when its outside. If you can't keep your dog in your yard you put it on a tether same thing with cats. Yes it is practical for cats.
Below is our city ordinance for animals. If you note the ordinance says all animals and the definition for all animals includes cats. And a paintball is not going to hurt them my kids and I used to play. Stings like hell but it provides no lasting injury.

6.08.010 - Impounding animals at large.
A.It shall be the duty of the police officer or the animal control officer or designated agent to capture or take into custody and impound all animals at large within the corporate limits of the city. If the animal so running at large cannot be captured by the officer or designated agent and represents a threat to persons or other animals, it shall be lawful for the officer to tranquilize or kill any such animal by any available means.
B.The animal control officer for the city may impound any animal observed to be at large, whether the animal is on public or private property, subject to the applicable provision of the law. If the animal control officer observes an animal on property which is owned by a person other than the owner of the animal, and observes the animal return to the property of its owner, the animal control officer may impound the animal or issue a citation for the animal running at large. In the event the animal is on private property or property of the animal's owner, the animal control officer, his/her agent, or police officer may enter the property, other than a private dwelling for the purpose of impoundment or issuance of a citation, or both, subject to the applicable provisions of this title and law.
C.Proof that an animal was found at large in violation of this section, together with proof that the defendant was the owner of such animal at the time, shall constitute prima facie evidence that the defendant allowed or permitted the animal to be at large.
D.Any dog or pup shall be deemed to be running at large when found off the real property of the owner and not under restraint. It shall be lawful for the animal control officer to pursue and capture such animals running at large and to enter a private property, as defined in Section 6.04.020

C.Any police officer or animal control officer, may take charge of any animal found running at large, injured, abandoned or showing evidence of cruel neglect upon either private or public property and inspect, care for, treat or transport such animal to the animal shelter for disposition.
D.Any law enforcement officer, including the animal control officer or designated agent, shall be authorized to use a tranquilizer gun, and further shall be authorized to kill any animal which it is impractical or impossible to capture or tranquilize and that is endangering persons, other animal or property.
(Ord. G-1011 § 1 (part), 2007: Ord. G-1001 § 1 (part), 2007)

6.08.011 - Keeping and feeding stray animals—Requirements, failure to surrender.
A.It is unlawful for any person to knowingly and intentionally to harbor, feed, keep in possession by confinement, or otherwise allow to remain on their property any animal which does not belong to him or her, it shall be the duty of the owner of the property to notify the animal control officer of the animal. Upon receiving such notice, the animal control officer or person duly authorized by the city manager shall take such animal and place it in the animal shelter. B.It is unlawful for any person to refuse to surrender any such stray animal to the animal control officer or person duly authorized by the city manager upon demand.

"Animals" means all warm-blooded vertebrate animals such as, but not limited to bovine cattle, horses and other equines, swine, goats, rabbits, sheep, dogs, cats, chickens, ducks, geese, turkeys, pigeons and other wild mammals, or birds that have been tamed, domesticated or captivated, but shall exclude small cage birds or aquatic and amphibian animals kept solely as pets.

"At large." An animal shall be deemed to be at large if off the premises of its owner and not under the immediate responsive control of a responsible person.

"Public nuisance" means any animal or animals which:

1.Molests passers-by or passing vehicles;
2.Attacks person(s) or other animals;
3.Trespasses on school grounds;
4.Is repeatedly at large specifically, three or more times per twelve (12) month period;
5.Damages private or public property;
6.Barks, whines or howls in an excessive, continuous or untimely fashion; or
7.Deposits excretory matter on property other than that of the owner. Repeatedly defecates on property not belonging to or under the control of its owner, unless such waste is immediately removed and properly disposed of by the owner of the animal (including domestic cats);
8.Produce odors or unclean conditions sufficient to annoy persons living in the vicinity; or
9.Is unconfined when in heat
Title: Re: Getting Rid of Stray Cats... Ethically
Post by: Docwatmo on October 26, 2018, 10:02:21 AM


6.08.011 - Keeping and feeding stray animals—Requirements, failure to surrender.
A.It is unlawful for any person to knowingly and intentionally to harbor, feed, keep in possession by confinement, or otherwise allow to remain on their property any animal which does not belong to him or her, it shall be the duty of the owner of the property to notify the animal control officer of the animal. Upon receiving such notice, the animal control officer or person duly authorized by the city manager shall take such animal and place it in the animal shelter. B.It is unlawful for any person to refuse to surrender any such stray animal to the animal control officer or person duly authorized by the city manager upon demand.

This is an important part of the regulation.   Ours is missing the "Feeding of stray's" portion.  Knowingly feeding strays which causes them to remain in the area needs to be included.  This prevents attrition and natural territorial spread of pray species from occurring which naturally helps to maintain the population. 
Title: Re: Getting Rid of Stray Cats... Ethically
Post by: David in MN on October 26, 2018, 10:19:44 AM
We have a lot of laws about feeding  wild animals but they're rarely enforced because it's kind of viewed lie a jerk thing to hassle the nicce lady who wants to put out food for the deer. It can get into weird stuff about luring prey and messy things near parks and state land but for the most part it's an unenforced law.

I don't think it's legal to shoot paintball here either. I wouldn't be seen with an airsoft outside for fear that I'd get a police visit. We're pretty cool about hunting and shooting but you just don't have one out in public without getting bad attention.

Alot of the headache is being civil with the neighbors. Yes, letting strays run our block is a jerk move but so is trapping or calling the city. We can wax nostalgic about property rights and how I should be able to manage my land but I also want to crack a beer with the neighbor and not be "that guy". So if a little motion activated sprinkler or sound deterrent keeps my yard clear that's just fine. It's the unintrusive solution I really need.
Title: Re: Getting Rid of Stray Cats... Ethically
Post by: mountainmoma on October 26, 2018, 10:27:30 AM
You guys still havent told me where such rules are, which county.  I need to make sure to never move there....


And, realy, you see cats walked around on leashes where you live and you think this makes sense and is practical ?  that is what I am asking. I do not doubt that crazy laws can be made. 

Do you see cats being walked around on leashes all over where you live ? It is one thing to have a law on the books that is impossible, and only enforced arbitrarily when someone complains, we have alot of those out here;  but do you think that is realy what goes n and is with the nature of cats ? You are seeing cats walked on leashes all the time  ?  Likely it is ignored in some places or other homes the cats are never allowed outside to hunt or run around.


Out here there is a difference between stray and feral, so when I use these words they are not interchangeable.  We are also not supposed to have stray animals, and they need to be brought in.  But most non-tame, feral, cats are legally someones pet, so you have t be thoughtful and check with your neighbors.  Why would you want to move your neighbors pet ?  The only difference between feeding a stray and a feral pet is responsibility, so a feral pet cat has been spayed/neutered and has shots, is being fed and cared for, some provision for shelter, some place to get out of the weather has to exist, does not mean inside the house.

I have read your areas rules you posted, you could definitely own a feral cat too in your area, many people do I am sure, so you should be considerate.

Title: Re: Getting Rid of Stray Cats... Ethically
Post by: Ranger Red on October 26, 2018, 10:28:23 AM
This is an important part of the regulation.   Ours is missing the "Feeding of stray's" portion.  Knowingly feeding strays which causes them to remain in the area needs to be included.  This prevents attrition and natural territorial spread of pray species from occurring which naturally helps to maintain the population.

Very true. Even with a spay / neuter program these cats create other problems by spreading feline diseases to other non strays they might come in contact with. 5 of the most deadly feline diseases are only preventable by keeping them indoors away from other strays and ferals. There are 70 million stray and feral cats in the US. Prior to 2001 there was a large market for feral cat hides. Which is why I think there has been an increase in the number of strays since the law went into effect. Fur dealers used to go to pounds and picked up euthanized animals and skin them out. They would also trap cats in down town areas with trucks and box traps. You never knew they were there unless you happened to see them loading cats up.
Title: Re: Getting Rid of Stray Cats... Ethically
Post by: mountainmoma on October 26, 2018, 10:34:19 AM
If you shoot and hit your neighbors pet with a projectile, it can be prosecuted under animal cruelty laws. That is "can" and "should", doesnt always happen.


Title: Re: Getting Rid of Stray Cats... Ethically
Post by: Ranger Red on October 26, 2018, 10:34:25 AM
You guys still havent told me where such rules are, which county.  I need to make sure to never move there....


And, realy, you see cats walked around on leashes where you live and you think this makes sense and is practical ?  that is what I am asking. I do not doubt that crazy laws can be made. 

Do you see cats being walked around on leashes all over where you live ? It is one thing to have a law on the books that is impossible, and only enforced arbitrarily when someone complains, we have alot of those out here;  but do you think that is realy what goes n and is with the nature of cats ? You are seeing cats walked on leashes all the time  ?  Likely it is ignored in some places or other homes the cats are never allowed outside to hunt or run around.


Out here there is a difference between stray and feral, so when I use these words they are not interchangeable.  We are also not supposed to have stray animals, and they need to be brought in.  But most non-tame, feral, cats are legally someones pet, so you have t be thoughtful and check with your neighbors.  Why would you want to move your neighbors pet ?  The only difference between feeding a stray and a feral pet is responsibility, so a feral pet cat has been spayed/neutered and has shots, is being fed and cared for, some provision for shelter, some place to get out of the weather has to exist, does not mean inside the house.

I have read your areas rules you posted, you could definitely own a feral cat too in your area, many people do I am sure, so you should be considerate.

The ordinance states that unless you have full control over the animal it has to be on a leash. That means you have to be present and able to give a command and the animal obey it or its At Large and you are subject to fines. So no you can't have a feral cat roaming around the neighborhood.
Title: Re: Getting Rid of Stray Cats... Ethically
Post by: Zef_66 on October 26, 2018, 10:42:06 AM
It is wrong and illegal to trap all cats that come into your yard.   We have a forum policy to not advocate  illegal activity....
What is the federal regulation on this? I assume federal because you are making a general statement to people in different states. Curious to know what the law is on this. Can you cite it, please?
Title: Re: Getting Rid of Stray Cats... Ethically
Post by: Ranger Red on October 26, 2018, 10:44:43 AM
If you shoot and hit your neighbors pet with a projectile, it can be prosecuted under animal cruelty laws. That is "can" and "should", doesnt always happen.

Here is our cruelty ordinance. So as long as I don't kill, maim, disfigure, torture, beat with any object, mutilate, burn or scald with any substance, or otherwise cruelly set upon any animals I'm golden in shooting it in the butt with a paintball. It does none of the aforementioned actions. In fact pepper spray is not allowed to be used on stray animals because it can burn the skin. And pepper is sometimes used as an animal deterrent in gardens to keep them from destroying crops.

6.16.010 - Cruelty to animals.
It is unlawful for any person to:

A.Willfully or maliciously kill, maim, disfigure, torture, beat with any object, mutilate, burn or scald with any substance, or otherwise cruelly set upon any animals; except that reasonable force may be employed to drive off dangerous animals;

B.Drive or work any animal cruelly or cruelly work any maimed, mutilated, infirm, sick or disabled animal, or cause, allow or permit the same to be done;

C.Have, keep or harbor any animal which is infected with any dangerous or incurable and/or painfully crippling condition except as hereinafter provided. The municipal court judge may order a person convicted of a violation of this subsection to turn the animal involved over to a designated humane society or animal shelter. All such animals taken by the designated agency may be destroyed humanely as soon thereafter as is conveniently possible. This section shall not be construed to include veterinary hospitals or animals under active veterinary care;

D.Sell or offer for sale, barter, give away, or use as an advertising device or promotional display, living baby chicks, rabbits, ducklings or other fowl, except pigeons, under two months of age in any quantity less than twelve (12); or to sell, offer for sale, barter, give away, or display animals or fowls as specified in this section, which have been dyed, colored or otherwise treated so as to impart to them an artificial or unnatural color; provided, however, that this section shall not be construed to prohibit the sale of animals or fowls as specified in this subsection; in proper facilities, by hatcheries or persons engaged in raising and selling such animals and fowls for recognized animal husbandry purposes;

E.Promote, state, hold, manage or in any way conduct any game, exhibition, contest or fight in which one or more animals are engaged for the purposes of injuring, killing, maiming or destroying themselves or any other animals;

F.Neglect or refuse to supply such animal with necessary and adequate care, food, drink, air, light, space, shelter or protection from the elements as necessary for health and well-being of such kind of animal;

G.Use, place, set out or deploy any above-ground animal trap that will damage or injure any animal when caught by the device or trap.

H.Use or facilitate combat between animal or between animals and humans.
Title: Re: Getting Rid of Stray Cats... Ethically
Post by: mountainmoma on October 26, 2018, 10:51:14 AM
Yes, I have owned cats.  I love cats, equally to dogs.   And any pet can be a nuisance if not controlled by their owner.  My cat's were all indoor cats, I didn't let them roam the neighborhood because they were my responsibility.   If my cats were roaming and my neighbor had a complaint about them, I take full responsibility for them.    Stray's and dumped cats are a different story.  They have no human responsible for them.  The regulations simply protect property rights (One of the few laws that actually support liberty) and they apply across the board.  No treating any animals or people differently.  (Unless they are an endangered species).   

Thus humanely trapping them and turning them over to animal control is a simple, viable and perfectly acceptable option.

I agree with trapping and animal control, I mentioned that alot up thread.  I have just cautioned that you shouldnt relocate your neighbors pet cats, and so should check if they consider the cats their pets.  And, if they do consider them their pets, they may need to be reminded of what responsibilities that entails in some cases, of course. 

You kept your cats indoors.  That is fine, but did you go out walking them on a leash and train them to stay in your yard or can you acnowledge that they are not dogs ?  People do not have a right to let their cats go outside ? I do know that there are many people who think this way, out here they think this for the cats own protection.  Personally, I would rather be free than to live in jail, no matter that living free exposes me to others that carry disease and exposes me to the possibility of car accidents and such and give my cats the same consideration, but I do not live in a dense city.

It is not just about law, we are talking ethical

- Is it ethical to knowingly trap your neighbors pet cat, even if allowed under law ?

- Is it realy worse to have a house cat in your garden or walk on your car than a racoon ?  You guys dont have racoons ?  We had them even in the city, especially in downtown San Jose.  Should walking on your car be some kind of death or imprisonment sentence for another creature ?

Title: Re: Getting Rid of Stray Cats... Ethically
Post by: mountainmoma on October 26, 2018, 10:53:19 AM
Here is our cruelty ordinance. So as long as I don't kill, maim, disfigure, torture, beat with any object, mutilate, burn or scald with any substance, or otherwise cruelly set upon any animals I'm golden in shooting it in the butt with a paintball. It does none of the aforementioned actions. In fact pepper spray is not allowed to be used on stray animals because it can burn the skin. And pepper is sometimes used as an animal deterrent in gardens to keep them from destroying crops.

6.16.010 - Cruelty to animals.
It is unlawful for any person to:

A.Willfully or maliciously kill, maim, disfigure, torture, beat with any object, mutilate, burn or scald with any substance, or otherwise cruelly set upon any animals; except that reasonable force may be employed to drive off dangerous animals;

B.Drive or work any animal cruelly or cruelly work any maimed, mutilated, infirm, sick or disabled animal, or cause, allow or permit the same to be done;

C.Have, keep or harbor any animal which is infected with any dangerous or incurable and/or painfully crippling condition except as hereinafter provided. The municipal court judge may order a person convicted of a violation of this subsection to turn the animal involved over to a designated humane society or animal shelter. All such animals taken by the designated agency may be destroyed humanely as soon thereafter as is conveniently possible. This section shall not be construed to include veterinary hospitals or animals under active veterinary care;

D.Sell or offer for sale, barter, give away, or use as an advertising device or promotional display, living baby chicks, rabbits, ducklings or other fowl, except pigeons, under two months of age in any quantity less than twelve (12); or to sell, offer for sale, barter, give away, or display animals or fowls as specified in this section, which have been dyed, colored or otherwise treated so as to impart to them an artificial or unnatural color; provided, however, that this section shall not be construed to prohibit the sale of animals or fowls as specified in this subsection; in proper facilities, by hatcheries or persons engaged in raising and selling such animals and fowls for recognized animal husbandry purposes;

E.Promote, state, hold, manage or in any way conduct any game, exhibition, contest or fight in which one or more animals are engaged for the purposes of injuring, killing, maiming or destroying themselves or any other animals;

F.Neglect or refuse to supply such animal with necessary and adequate care, food, drink, air, light, space, shelter or protection from the elements as necessary for health and well-being of such kind of animal;

G.Use, place, set out or deploy any above-ground animal trap that will damage or injure any animal when caught by the device or trap.

H.Use or facilitate combat between animal or between animals and humans.

If they wanted to, they would do it under the "otherwise cruelly set upon " section.  They cant list everything, so they have a general pace where they can prosecute anything. 

What county and state is this code from ?
Title: Re: Getting Rid of Stray Cats... Ethically
Post by: mountainmoma on October 26, 2018, 10:55:58 AM
The ordinance states that unless you have full control over the animal it has to be on a leash. That means you have to be present and able to give a command and the animal obey it or its At Large and you are subject to fines. So no you can't have a feral cat roaming around the neighborhood.

what state and county ?
Title: Re: Getting Rid of Stray Cats... Ethically
Post by: Ranger Red on October 26, 2018, 11:04:36 AM
what state and county ?

Pick one it doesn't matter. Most animal control statutes are based off each other unless its the case of a new thing like back when they started outlawing pit bulls in some municipalities.
Title: Re: Getting Rid of Stray Cats... Ethically
Post by: Ranger Red on October 26, 2018, 11:17:14 AM
I agree with trapping and animal control, I mentioned that alot up thread.  I have just cautioned that you shouldnt relocate your neighbors pet cats, and so should check if they consider the cats their pets.  And, if they do consider them their pets, they may need to be reminded of what responsibilities that entails in some cases, of course. 

You kept your cats indoors.  That is fine, but did you go out walking them on a leash and train them to stay in your yard or can you acnowledge that they are not dogs ?  People do not have a right to let their cats go outside ? I do know that there are many people who think this way, out here they think this for the cats own protection.  Personally, I would rather be free than to live in jail, no matter that living free exposes me to others that carry disease and exposes me to the possibility of car accidents and such and give my cats the same consideration, but I do not live in a dense city.

It is not just about law, we are talking ethical

- Is it ethical to knowingly trap your neighbors pet cat, even if allowed under law ?

- Is it realy worse to have a house cat in your garden or walk on your car than a racoon ?  You guys dont have racoons ?  We had them even in the city, especially in downtown San Jose.  Should walking on your car be some kind of death or imprisonment sentence for another creature ?

I have copious amounts of wildlife that roams through and around my back yard. I don't have the same problem with them that I do with the neighborhood cats. And yes I see that each animal is unique (a cat is not a dog) but the ordinance says that animals includes chickens. People don't leash chickens but they make sure they don't roam in my neighbors yard.  I don't understand why you have such a hard time with this. You just want to let you cat roam because that's what you've been doing for years. But it's wrong and now you have to stop. The law is ethical. Letting you cat wander and contract feline leukemia is not ethical. and it's also not legal to allow it to wander once it contracts feline leukemia. And no people do not have the right to allow their cat to wander the neighborhood as they please. 
Title: Re: Getting Rid of Stray Cats... Ethically
Post by: Mr. Bill on October 26, 2018, 11:25:33 AM
what state and county ?

This topic is viewable by the entire world without even being a forum member.  Most people do not want to share the locations of their homes.
Title: Re: Getting Rid of Stray Cats... Ethically
Post by: Docwatmo on October 26, 2018, 11:27:40 AM

- Is it ethical to knowingly trap your neighbors pet cat, even if allowed under law ?


Yes it is.  Particularly if you've warned your neighbor multiple times, and have been through the 2 minimum trap and notify procedures. (After a dozen or more warnings and reminders of the ordinance)  Cat, Dog, Ferret, Rabbit, they are all the same.  They are pets and if not maintained and controlled by their owner, they are nuisance animals.      It's not something I would want to do, but if their cat is being a nuisance animal and they have been warned several times, and their cat has been trapped several times and they still don't make any effort to maintain their pet on their own property, then I have no problem with it.  I've been fortunate to never have to do it.  But I have a neighbor 3 houses down who's next door neighbor fed a bunch of stray cats and called them "Her pets" and he ended up trapping 7 of them and turning them over to animal control before the police finally made a visit to her house and she stopped feeding the strays.    That was about 8 years ago and we have only seen 2 strays since then and neither stayed in the area long. 

Is it ethical to have a pet and not maintain control of it?  Is it ethical to allow your pet to defecate in your neighbors yard?  Is it ethical to feed strays causing them to hang out and become nuisance animals?   

Title: Re: Getting Rid of Stray Cats... Ethically
Post by: Sailor on October 28, 2018, 05:15:37 PM
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/cats-invasive-species-in-your-backyard-cbsn-originals/ (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/cats-invasive-species-in-your-backyard-cbsn-originals/)
Title: Re: Getting Rid of Stray Cats... Ethically
Post by: scoop on October 29, 2018, 09:40:44 AM
Maybe this?
https://youtu.be/kWEZfNiHLF0
Title: Re: Getting Rid of Stray Cats... Ethically
Post by: Docwatmo on October 30, 2018, 06:55:45 AM
Just to assure anyone seeing the video.  The video is fake.  No cats were harmed in the filming.