The Survival Podcast Forum

Armory, Self Defense, And EDC => Firearms (Including Long Guns, Pistols) => Modern Rifles, Shotguns and Carbines => Topic started by: David in MN on November 12, 2018, 08:54:54 AM

Title: Falling Out of Love With the AR
Post by: David in MN on November 12, 2018, 08:54:54 AM
I'll start by saying that I love the AR, think everyone should have a few, and it is the modern rifle. The M4 style is awesome. You can aftermarket it to anything you want. And I'll go so far as to say in many competitions it's the #1 choice hands down.

But there are some nagging things. The AR for better or worse was designed for  a 1950s battlefield in East Europe. It's a balance of options (all tools are) and maybe not right for me. The 5.56 might be ideal for a military needing to supply thousands of rounds per day or a marine on patrol carrying a couple hundred but that's not my life. Unlike a modern military my top concern isn't logistics. I don't need massive amounts of ammo.

The range is wrong too. We could argue but the AR has a 200-300 meter sweet spot. I live on 1/3 of an acre. If I needed home defense a shotgun makes more sense. Off the property I'm in the flatland of the midwest where I see for miles. If 2 guys decided to get violent and one showed up on a wheat field with a kitted up AR he'd be in real trouble if the other brought his .300 Winmag elk gun.

I spent last night at a social event and found myself talking to a couple where she is an engineer at Federal and he works for the Anoka Sheriffs. He was very curious about my shotgun expderience (I am at home with it and gave advice on building a police gun) and I was curious about his thoughts. He is building a .308 AR-10 because in his mind if he's out on the farms and needs a gun he wants to hit hard at 500+ meters. He, like me, is dead set that under 50 meters you want a shotgun and beyond that you want a hunting round.

I also have the opinion of my father, a Vietnam vet. He was awarded marksmanship medals with the M14, his favorite gun and had utter disdain for the M16 which he felt was little more than a "spray and pray" gun. I'm not on board with that but I'm not ignoring someone with combat experience who will openly voice that he had more confidence in the .308. And hey, call a spade a spade he was a 170 lb draftee and I'm a ~240 lb weightlifter. We're not remotely the same people.

I'm not trying to hate on the AR. I have some. But I can't shake that it was designed to solve problems I don't have. I don't need a military load, don't need to ship ammo to a battlefield, and never intend on using its optimized range. It wasn't built for me or my needs. As a simple example it does nothing for bear which is realistic for me.

10 years ago I was much simpler in the head. Buy an AR, slap a red dot on, and get training. And it's still not bad advice. I will build an AR with my daughter (have the lower) when she's old enough. It's a great gun and it builds skills. And it's fun and easy to shoot. I've handed mine to women in their 60s with arthritis and assured them it wwould be an easy shooter. But again that's solving a problem I don't have.

I'm curious of this phenomenon. If you had to build a "ground up" rifle for your life would it be an AR?
Title: Re: Falling Out of Love With the AR
Post by: Alan Georges on November 12, 2018, 06:00:43 PM
David, is it the 5.56 cartridge that bugs you, or the AR platform in general?

This is such a huge question you're batting around, one that has set off holy wars on other, less-civil forums.  But like you, I can see the both the good and the shortcomings of the ubiquitous AR-15.
Title: Re: Falling Out of Love With the AR
Post by: CarbideAndIron on November 13, 2018, 05:09:07 AM
Those are all reasons I have always wanted a PTR-91. Cheap, durable, good platform, and .308. Only reason I built an AR instead, was because you can build them cheaply, and in increments. I'm cheap, so I would rather fool myself, and nickel and dime a build.
Title: Re: Falling Out of Love With the AR
Post by: armymars on November 13, 2018, 09:14:59 AM
If someone would just make a modern cock on closing bolt action rifle that would shoot as fast and smooth as the Endfield, now that's a gun I would buy. Grin
Title: Re: Falling Out of Love With the AR
Post by: Alan Georges on November 13, 2018, 06:14:09 PM
If someone would just make a modern cock on closing bolt action rifle that would shoot as fast and smooth as the Endfield, now that's a gun I would buy. Grin
Second that!  A nice short action, maybe a mid-range cartridge (6.5, 6.8, etc.), a few tacticool flourishes (flash hider especially), and it would be a formidable "hunting rifle."  I could see making do with it.
Title: Re: Falling Out of Love With the AR
Post by: Chemsoldier on November 13, 2018, 08:33:34 PM
I just see few other niches.  It does most things well for modest size, weight and recoil.  While you can obviously take a lot more of all of those things, to what end?   You already stated you dont need the range capability of a more powerful cartridge.  The terminal ballistics advantage of something else at the distances you are talking about is marginal against unarmored targets, and the most common armor types that stop 5.56 is probably SAPI/ESAPI, which is rated to stop .30-06 AP, so probably heavier than you are slinging from something else.

The shotgun is badass in many situations, but it is inherently low capacity in most of its incarnations.  I am not saying it will not work in most circumstances, but if we were playing "what is most likely to need" we need a door lock and a cell phone, not a firearm of any sort.

Whatever floats your boat man.  I am not gonna look down my nose at whatever you want to use.  I have deliberately started working on my Scout Rifle skills so I can have a non-AR option for distance work, just in case the political winds change.  However, there is no magical brain power that can be applied to make the AR not a good choice for many applications either.
Title: Re: Falling Out of Love With the AR
Post by: Smurf Hunter on November 14, 2018, 11:34:11 AM
Context is key


Why assume you are outdoors patrolling or responding to some alert?

What if instead you had to go on offense, kick in a door and shoot 3 bad guys quickly?  I'd rather give up terminal ballistics of a heavy deer gun for fast accurate shots. Also not sure a shotgun has enough firepower when you have more than two targets CQB.

I'm not going to suggest my example is likely or your should be a top consideration, but that's where a carbine shines.  Likewise for urban and or vehicle operations.

Title: Re: Falling Out of Love With the AR
Post by: David in MN on November 14, 2018, 12:49:48 PM
Nothing I disagree with.

Context does matter. I am in no small part a function of the times. I was a teen during the Clinton Ban so when I was old enough and had the money yeah buddy I got an AR. And the media would make you believe it's some kind of magic death ray.

I ran mine in training and competition and I have no problem with it. My 3 year old has her lower (I bought it for her 2nd birthday much to mom's chagrin). It's a great gun to learn and train with. And it really is ideal for some purposes.

I'm not trying to poop on anybody's gun choices. When it comes to running a fast time or being unsure of range it's a good compromise. If Red Dawn happens I'll use mine. It's a good rifle and I think everyone should have a few. But as I've trained in with a longer range bolt gun I've found a new home. I don't think it's an accident that us northern climate people fall in love with big bolt guns. If I'm out hiking in northern MN bears are a realistic concern. Where I live 200 lb mountain lions are a concern.

I'm not saying it's not the best tactical carbine. I think it is. The current M4 blows everything out of the water. The ergos alone are second to none. I'm saying if I had to grab one rifle in my world it would be my .308 scout. And in the deep snows of winter I feel better with a big bolt. With big gloves, with snow in the bolt, with ice everywhere.. yeah, my opinion has changed.

I'm not making a blanket claim for the entire world. I went from a "high speed low drag" competitor to a long range enthusiast. And I've really struggled with the "for what" question. Snowshoeing in northern MN isn't duty patrol in Tikrit. ANd if I'm honest if I was door kicking I'll take an 870. Under 50 yards it's my choice.

I hope I'm not upsetting people. I really like the AR. It just doesn't fit my life as well as a traditional bolt. That could change. It just struck me odd that for the first time in a while when I wanted a rifle it wasn't the AR. It's been a weird thing to go through.
Title: Re: Falling Out of Love With the AR
Post by: iam4liberty on November 14, 2018, 03:43:42 PM
I hope I'm not upsetting people. I really like the AR. It just doesn't fit my life as well as a traditional bolt. That could change. It just struck me odd that for the first time in a while when I wanted a rifle it wasn't the AR. It's been a weird thing to go through.

How dare you go and choose preps outside the norm which actually fit your needs!  ;)

Seriously, 20 years ago in the prepper community the 308 battle rifles like the M1A and HK were generally considered the top choices.  Look at works like Boston's Gun Bible and Fred's Guide for the logic.  But this was the time of 5 to15 cent a round 308.  Then it shifted dramatically to the smaller, lighter AR15, AK, and mini-14.  Truth is all of these are great options that, as long as build is done well, will let one control out to 500 yards. So are bolt rifles of the same calibers.

So, choose whichever is your passion and fits the budget.  Both are important for keeping practice up. The worst thing is letting hard earned skills fall off.

All this said, if you put a can on the AR it might rekindle that love a bit.  :)
Title: Re: Falling Out of Love With the AR
Post by: cmxterra on November 14, 2018, 05:21:12 PM
AR pistol for trunk gun or scout rifle. SCAR 17 for my save the homestead. 300BLK subsonic for home defense.
Title: Re: Falling Out of Love With the AR
Post by: David in MN on November 15, 2018, 11:31:52 AM
I'm kind of going the other way... I mean besides my .338 Lapua...

My brother in law would joke (and he's an Afghan vet) that at my size I should run a FAL. Not sure about that one. He likes to joke that the military should have a policy where everyone under 6' gets an AR and those over 6' get a FAL. I think it's a clunky big gun but I'll admit for us larger folks you could do worse.

I just kind of fell in love with a .308 bolt. It does some amazing things. It shoots long, it looks benign (when I'm out with it), and I don't think people respect how powerful an fast a mag fed bolt gun can be. It's not a bad compromise.

It's probably not the right choice for everyone but for me it's become a go-to. Honestly it's been a shock to me. After spending years developing my skills dumping thousands of XM193 down range I'm finding that boring "hunting" rifles make more sense. Maybe I'm just getting old.

I'll also point out the American bias on guns. We like putting lead down range. If it fires faster, it's better. Case in point the Thompson (yes I want one because they are beautiful). We're the "shotgun culture" of the world. Point in the right direction and keep sending it until you're safe. We tend *generally* to think of guns as Audie Murphy, not Carlos Hathcock (both heroes). ANd none of us think of my gun virtuoso Frank Pape.

https://www.nytimes.com/2000/03/12/us/frank-pape-celebrated-chicago-police-detective-dies-at-91.html

I think I heard Massad Ayoob on the Gundudes once joke about how there's so many ways to skin this cat. There is no wrong answer unless you go to bear country with a .22. Find what runs for you and run it.
Title: Re: Falling Out of Love With the AR
Post by: Smurf Hunter on November 15, 2018, 02:09:49 PM
I'm kind of going the other way... I mean besides my .338 Lapua...

My brother in law would joke (and he's an Afghan vet) that at my size I should run a FAL. Not sure about that one. He likes to joke that the military should have a policy where everyone under 6' gets an AR and those over 6' get a FAL. I think it's a clunky big gun but I'll admit for us larger folks you could do worse.

I just kind of fell in love with a .308 bolt. It does some amazing things. It shoots long, it looks benign (when I'm out with it), and I don't think people respect how powerful an fast a mag fed bolt gun can be. It's not a bad compromise.

It's probably not the right choice for everyone but for me it's become a go-to. Honestly it's been a shock to me. After spending years developing my skills dumping thousands of XM193 down range I'm finding that boring "hunting" rifles make more sense. Maybe I'm just getting old.

I'll also point out the American bias on guns. We like putting lead down range. If it fires faster, it's better. Case in point the Thompson (yes I want one because they are beautiful). We're the "shotgun culture" of the world. Point in the right direction and keep sending it until you're safe. We tend *generally* to think of guns as Audie Murphy, not Carlos Hathcock (both heroes). ANd none of us think of my gun virtuoso Frank Pape.

https://www.nytimes.com/2000/03/12/us/frank-pape-celebrated-chicago-police-detective-dies-at-91.html

I think I heard Massad Ayoob on the Gundudes once joke about how there's so many ways to skin this cat. There is no wrong answer unless you go to bear country with a .22. Find what runs for you and run it.

Actions matter too.  I have a couple .22lr rifles.  A Savage Mark II bolt action,  and a Ruger 10/22 semi-auto (recently voted by to be designated as "assault weapon" on 7/1/19 in WA state, but I digress).

I shoot them completely different.  With the 5 round mag in the savage, I manage my breathing, am careful of my cheek weld and everything else.  On the 10/22, I just get "close enough" and squeeze, squeeze and squeeze again.  In neither case am I really thinking (that click just cost $0.05), it's just the action that persuades how I shoot.  With an AR15, esp. with 30 round magazine it's nearly impossible to shoot only a small volume recreationally.
Title: Re: Falling Out of Love With the AR
Post by: cmxterra on November 15, 2018, 02:57:01 PM
Speaking of .22  A .22 upper with subsonics and a can is AWESOME. More quiet than a pellet gun.
Title: Re: Falling Out of Love With the AR
Post by: David in MN on November 16, 2018, 01:59:00 PM
Actions matter too.  I have a couple .22lr rifles.  A Savage Mark II bolt action,  and a Ruger 10/22 semi-auto (recently voted by to be designated as "assault weapon" on 7/1/19 in WA state, but I digress).

I shoot them completely different.  With the 5 round mag in the savage, I manage my breathing, am careful of my cheek weld and everything else.  On the 10/22, I just get "close enough" and squeeze, squeeze and squeeze again.  In neither case am I really thinking (that click just cost $0.05), it's just the action that persuades how I shoot.  With an AR15, esp. with 30 round magazine it's nearly impossible to shoot only a small volume recreationally.

Fair point. It is a bit of a case of apples and oranges when I put the cheapest 55 grain possible in my AR and high end .308 in my bolt gun. My Savage MK II BRJ has only ever seen one load. I am more picky with bolt or single shot platforms than semis. Kind of goes back to the old joke about full auto turning cash into piles of brass.

I brought it up with my brother in law today. He laughed and told me he gets it. In his head going rural a bolt gun is more convenient to carry through rough terrain. Yeah, that makes sense. He then called me a b*tch for not using a .30-06. Funny. I suspect we have a date coming where his .300 Winmag and my .338 Lapua go head to head. He'll probably best me.

He was giving me crap but he saw the arguments on both sides. Of course he just splits the difference and claims his AR-10 is best. But he doesn't use it much cause it's too heavy. He hucked that in and out of deer camp exactly once before going back to a bolt action and then settling on a 20 gauge semi auto dedicated slug gun. We then derailed into one of our normal arguments: Binelli semi-auto vs. pump. He's wrong; the pump is supreme  ;).

That's what has really been amazing. I pick up different guns and realize each solves a different problem. When I started working my scout I wasn't very good but I worked in and now I like it for what it offers. Still have ARs. I just like this setup more. And while I joke with my brother he just grew up in hunting culture with semi shotguns and I grew up rural(er) with cheap pumps.

I appreciate that we're all positive. You never know what platform will speak your language.
Title: Re: Falling Out of Love With the AR
Post by: David in MN on November 23, 2018, 10:00:33 AM
I spent the other day (Tuesday) packing in the guns for winter. I'm ashamed to admit I hardly clean them anymore but I try to at least get the shotguns spotless because I know I won't shoot them in the cold. I was one of those guys who cleaned every gun once a month but then we had a kid, didn't like the chemicals arounnd the kid, so on and so forth.

Anyway, I pulled out Dahlia (yes I name my guns and an AR being a black rifle just fits as Dahlia [yes, the .338 is Valkyrie]) and I did some dry fire drills. Many of my instinct were firmed. In a head to head between my AR, .308 bolt action, and 870 I wasn't surprised.

In close action drills the shotgun is the winner. To go from carry to fire to follow up it just wins. I put it into use very quick. I'm sticking with the belief that in close it's my go-to. Here's the odd part... I get the .308 on long range faster than my AR. So it's not in my head. If I'm on your 6 and that first shot needs to count you want me carrying the bolt gun. Clunky safety and all.

But the big takeaway is that I need to rebuild Dahlia. She was a great gun when I was 28 and competing. Now I'm 38 and the eyes and arthritis... I really noticed how spoiled I am with the Savage accutrigger. Dahlia needs a better trigger. And she needs an optic. I put the POS Bushnell red dot on when I was poor and 20/15. Now I'm starting to look at the "designated marksman" type scopes which are oddly similar to my scout scope which I have been loving.

We (brother in law, father in law, and wife) talked about it over Thanksgiving. Their feelings:

BIL: "I couldn't fault a guy with a .308 scout in rural MN."
FIL: "I'm in my 70s. I like the AR."
Wife: "You're a big dumb redneck. You grew up throwing an 870 in the back of a pickup with no seat belts. 30 years with a shotgun and you're surprised it moves quick for you?"

All true. ANd she's right. If I only got one gun it would be an 870 (no hate on Mossberg but you use for that long you get hooked). But my philosophy of use hasn't changed. Under 50 yards the shotgun is supreme. Packing a rifle to go rural the scout gets my nod. If Red Dawn happens I want an AR.

Maybe the real problem is that I always used shotguns and ARs so when I got into longer range slower fire platforms I just got the "oh, that's what I've been missing" bug. And maybe I have a bias to higher power rather than rate of fire. But that kind of fits in my life.

The brother in law put it best. His advice: in Red Dawn the Mrs. gets the AR and you carry a shotgun with a bolt gun on the other shoulder. You're <50<400 and she's in between. We laughed.
Title: Re: Falling Out of Love With the AR
Post by: Smurf Hunter on November 26, 2018, 02:40:11 PM
Product marketing aside, for your context what makes a scout a "scout"?  Magazine fed bolt gun in .30 cal?  Could I take a lower end Savage model 10/11, convert to box magazine and be good to go, or are you more of the Jeff Cooper school where you mount a high eye relief scope forward of the action?  (I've thought since it's fed from a detachable magazine, you don't also need to support feeding via stripper clips - who would pack along both?)

Title: Re: Falling Out of Love With the AR
Post by: David in MN on November 26, 2018, 07:01:04 PM
Product marketing aside, for your context what makes a scout a "scout"?  Magazine fed bolt gun in .30 cal?  Could I take a lower end Savage model 10/11, convert to box magazine and be good to go, or are you more of the Jeff Cooper school where you mount a high eye relief scope forward of the action?  (I've thought since it's fed from a detachable magazine, you don't also need to support feeding via stripper clips - who would pack along both?)

I want a mag fed bolt .308 (or similar gun). I run a 4x forward mounted long relief scope and I find ***for me*** I'm on it real quick. If for you a higher or lower magnification works and a different position works, well, that sounds good. I'm not uptight. If you run a 6 power designated marksman scope well (and I might get there too) rock on.

What I really like about the scout design is the compactness. I use 5 round mags. Yup, I like the small mags. And the .308 doesn't suffer shorter barrels like other calibers. So I get a rifle with an effective shorter (not SBR) barrel and less sticking out the bottom. What I like about the scout is what I like about the shotgun: easy carry.

I realize that a forward scope and mag feeding are counter-intuitive. But don't get bogged down there. The forward scope is on target fast. That's what I always loved about red dots on ARs. but for a magnified 500 yard shot the scout setup is ***for me*** kinda cool.

I'm no purist. If it works for you it works. My borther in law, a great shot, DETESTS the forward mounted scope. If he grabs his Tikka hunting gun he's good to go.

That's the nut we're all trying to crack. What's the right gun for me right now ? I'm not prescribing anything. I do think Cooper was on track for something. I'll admit I disagree with the Ching Sling because I like the simplicity of a traditional sling. And the bulk of the Ching flies in the face of my desired "super compact" .308 scout. And that sling gets hung up in brush which fails what I think the gun should be. I'm no acolyte.

I guess if you forced me to admit it the "scout rifle" would be a small bolt gun with a scope and sling that works for you. If that means a .30-06 with a 20" barrel and some daisy chained rubber bands; well, that's you.

We all live in different climates and face different predators. And we are all built different. Beyond the size and strength we all have different eyes. Between my eyes and your eyes could be an ocean.

When we get to "that one rifle" there's a million right answers. That's this thread. It's me going from a competitive rifle to a practical rifle. That has a lot of variables in it.
Title: Re: Falling Out of Love With the AR
Post by: Alan Georges on November 26, 2018, 09:04:47 PM
It's a funny thing David, but I'm just the opposite: can't get used to a forward mounted scope, but love a Ching sling.  OTOH, I've never had to wrestle with a leather Ching sling, just the nylon webbing ones (https://www.thewilderness.com/ching-sling/ (https://www.thewilderness.com/ching-sling/)).  They stay out of the way fairly well.

I keep coming back to this idea of a short action bolt rifle in whatever 6.8 the military standardizes on in the next couple of years, with a flash hider, 4x fixed scope, buis of some sort, and a Ching sling.  Using a detachable .mil mag would be a ideal, and leave lots of options open.  It's a good thing I'm not in a hurry, because it's going to take the DoD ~5 years to figure out what they want to do in 6.8.
Title: Re: Falling Out of Love With the AR
Post by: David in MN on November 27, 2018, 10:36:53 AM
It's a funny thing David, but I'm just the opposite: can't get used to a forward mounted scope, but love a Ching sling.  OTOH, I've never had to wrestle with a leather Ching sling, just the nylon webbing ones (https://www.thewilderness.com/ching-sling/ (https://www.thewilderness.com/ching-sling/)).  They stay out of the way fairly well.

I keep coming back to this idea of a short action bolt rifle in whatever 6.8 the military standardizes on in the next couple of years, with a flash hider, 4x fixed scope, buis of some sort, and a Ching sling.  Using a detachable .mil mag would be a ideal, and leave lots of options open.  It's a good thing I'm not in a hurry, because it's going to take the DoD ~5 years to figure out what they want to do in 6.8.

Too funny. Different strokes and all. But I get it. Some setups just feel "right". I love the rifle idea. I should mention my fondness for Magpul plastic magazines. Metal GI mags kinda suck in winter. You can make good cases for both, though.
Title: Re: Falling Out of Love With the AR
Post by: armymars on November 27, 2018, 12:54:06 PM
Like I said earlier, cock on closing and as smooth as a Endfield. Please.
Title: Re: Falling Out of Love With the AR
Post by: Smurf Hunter on November 27, 2018, 02:44:50 PM
Like I said earlier, cock on closing and as smooth as a Endfield. Please.

https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=359622

I was curious and skimmed the above.  Sounds like one of the big motivations for COC is that the opening stroke effort is 100% spent on extraction of the spent brass.  In the late Victorian Era when the .303 came about, it was black powder and more prone to foul the chamber compared to modern ammo.  So in that context COC has a lot of merit.
If cycling speed was the most important factor, I'm guessing a lighter pressure load should be faster to extract compared to a hot one.

I think some field experiments are in order.
Title: Re: Falling Out of Love With the AR
Post by: David in MN on November 27, 2018, 03:04:04 PM
Like I said earlier, cock on closing and as smooth as a Endfield. Please.

I've witnessed a "mad minute" drill. It's terrifying how good those guys were with a hunting rifle and often shooting with the middle finger. I have no idea why this concept  was never modernized. I think the record stands at something like 36 shots in a minute. I know untrained guys who couldn't do that with a 40 round mag and modern gun.

One gun could be a hunter, a counter-sniper, and do volley fire? I'm not saying you're wrong...
Title: Re: Falling Out of Love With the AR
Post by: iam4liberty on November 27, 2018, 03:04:54 PM
Like I said earlier, cock on closing and as smooth as a Endfield. Please.

15 years ago i bought a 308 Ishapore for $100. Wish i would have bought a dozen.  A lot of scout rifles have been made out of those. 
Title: Re: Falling Out of Love With the AR
Post by: armymars on November 28, 2018, 09:26:37 AM
I'm green with envy. Or maybe it was that left over fish I ate.  :-X
Title: Re: Falling Out of Love With the AR
Post by: The Professor on November 28, 2018, 07:37:59 PM
I haven't read through the entire thread, but let me toss in a few opinions.

I view the AR15 as a General Purpose rifle.  It does very few things well enough to outperform specialty firearms.   The shotgun, for example, is not my personal choice for home defense.  I may have to carry a grandchild to a safe room. . .a shotgun would be problematic.  I may have to use the phone. . .same situation.  God forbid that I have to drag a wounded family member to cover.  A handgun capable of being used one-handed  (in other situations, as well, such as opening or closing a door) is my preferred weapon for this.

An AR Pistol will work here, as well.  No, even in shortened form it's not a convenient as a 1911 or Glock, but it can hold a 60-rd magazine and with the right ammo chosen to reduce penetration through the walls. . .?  Hell, go NFA, chamber it in .300 BLK with a 7.5" bbl and suppressor and you can have 60 rds of 220-grain bullets that won't deafen you when you pull the trigger.

Want to shoot something at 500+ meters?  A few years ago I posted my "Ultimate" GP Survival Rifle build.  With Black Hills 77-gr rounds I could hit a 12" gong at 800m consistently.  I was working on some 75-grain A-Max-based handloads and got that FrankenRifle to shoot under 0.4 MOA.   I did have problems, IIRC, with feeding due to the OAL.  But, I moved and haven't had a chance to pick up on the experiment since.

Wanna go farther?  Get an upper in 6.5 Grendel or .224 Valkyrie.  The 1k'ers are shooting sub-MOA with supersonic velocities out to 1200m and 1300m, respectively, all the time and can take down the largest of North American animals.

As a "Minute-Man" gun?  Hard to beat.  It's light enough to be carried a long time.  Ditto the ammo.  Even if it's in the 20" barrel form, an average person can carry it.  Your engagement sphere, with inexpensive mil-spec ammo can reach out to 350m with basic firearms training.  Slap a low-power scope on it and watch your hit ratio climb (train on iron sights, first).  Moreover, there are so many milspec and better parts that if something breaks or wears out, it should be relatively easy to buy, barter or. . .<ahem>. . .acquire replacements.

You see, I look at the AR platform as being the ultimate adaptable firearm on the planet, currently.  All it takes is a little research, some money (sometimes a lot, sometimes not so much), and practice.

Our standard SHTF longarms  have changed a little.  The Frankenrifle to which I alluded earlier has been relegated to Search and Rescue or INCH purposes.  We've settled on SBR'd and Suppressed AR's in .300 BLK-chambered gun with Lawman side-folding adapters.  Looking at our area and the changing times, we wanted something smaller and lighter with a lower sound signature.  I have difficulty believing that I'll have to worry about shots being taken out past 300m or 350m, especially in the woodlands surrounding me or in an urban area.  But, I do see the need at engaging multiple targets under 50m in short periods of time, especially early on in a Get-home or early bug out scenario.  They also give us a smaller package to carry if we deem it necessary to be armed at all times.  With the suppressors on, they're about the length of a standard carbine.  Remove the suppressor and put on one of the "Blast Mitigation Devices," get the Knights Armament Hook, fold the stock and you have a VERY compact weapon with 30 (or more) round capacity that, with the right ammo, has a reduced signature (to the shooter) that is quickly brought into action with plenty of incapacitation potential (Supersonic, go for the 110-grain Barnes Tac-TX which is a proven fast-stopper on deer and large hogs).

Now, here's the fun part.  Those NFA Registered SBR lowers?  I can slap on any upper in any caliber and it will still work.  In fact, we specifically went with 10.5" 5.56x45 Noveske Switchblock uppers that have the same suppressor mount as the .300 BLK uppers. If we have problems locating .300 BLK ammo in an extended scenario, all we have to do is pull two pins, swap the top, and we can use .223 or 5.56x45 ammo.  We can even use the same 762SDN-6 suppressors, albeit with a lower sound reduction.

Great to use in vehicles, when evacuating on foot, doing stuff around the homestead or in more "social" situations.

Adaptability is the keyword for the AR.

Now, that doesn't mean that I'm not open to other options.  We originally went with AR Pistols in the same configuration. But, when travelling across state lines, I didn't (and don't) want some cops ignorance and shock at seeing a "black rifle" in my trunk if pulled over and my vehicle searched.  So, we take our Mossberg MVP Patrol rifles when we go out of the state.  They're fitted with the same scope as the Franken Rifle  (1-4x24), the same flash suppressor as the compact rifles (AAC 51T flash suppressor) so we can use the suppressors or Blast Mitigation Device.  They take the same AR mags and 223/5.56 ammo and work great.

Now, we did do nearby tactical shoots with the MVP's and there is a NOTICEABLE difference in time.  But, we don't have to change anything except the rifles when we travel out of state.

The MVP also comes in .308 (I have only one) and accepts the M14 mags as well as the Magpul .308 mags (I prefer the m14 mags, they seem to feed smoother) in about the same size.

So, for us (<--Keywords), the AR does most of what we want and/or need.  We just have to have the right configuration and some time behind the weapons for competency.

And that's just for the -15 version.  Want a .308?  That's a whole 'nother post.

Just some thoughts, worth exactly what you paid for them.

The Professor
Title: Re: Falling Out of Love With the AR
Post by: David in MN on November 29, 2018, 09:41:32 AM
All good points. I should clarify that I keep handguns in pistol boxes on both levels for emergency. The shotgun is more like a neighborhood event. But I like your philosophy of selecting based on range. There's a reason we call it a "riot shotgun".

I also agree that the AR is incredibly adaptable and training crosses over. Lots of benefit there. Maybe not as adaptable as a shotgun that goes from a bird gun to a slug with a one pump changeover but that's digressing. Yes, with one lower and several uppers you can customize to just about any task. That's cool.

I also agree on the philosophy of use in terms of firepower. I would feel different if I drove through downtown every day. I get it. Going through a violent protest is much less likely for me than a guy with that commute.

Also agree that there is a lot of "for me" in this discussion. That's not a bad thing.
Title: Re: Falling Out of Love With the AR
Post by: Smurf Hunter on November 30, 2018, 02:26:54 PM
In a legal/regulatory context the AR pattern has a lot of benefit when switching uppers as Prof mentions.

Though being practical, Once you get into mid grade uppers/BCG and add optics/sights, you're looking at $500 at least.
Maybe rather than 3 different uppers for a budget of $1500-2000, I could just get 3 additional long guns.  Maybe a .357 lever gun, .308 scout bolt gun, pump shotgun.


Title: Re: Falling Out of Love With the AR
Post by: David in MN on February 27, 2019, 03:23:21 PM
The counterpoint to me...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pC4Gqvd7T1s

I agree that there is something to the AR/AK bang bang bang that has advantage over my bolt going crack..........crack. I get that. I agree. In a combat situation give me the AR. It's good at throwing a lot of lead in the correct direction. It's also worth saying that the best "mad minute" with a bolt gun was done on a comfortable range after tea.

It's an interesting argument.
Title: Re: Falling Out of Love With the AR
Post by: Smurf Hunter on February 28, 2019, 11:56:50 AM
The "mad minute" has some fascinating history that you can look into.
It's worth pointing out that a bayonet charge was a viable offensive tactic during that same era. 

For modern organized militaries, it seems more common to initiate a large scale attack with air power, be it fighter jets, or missiles. Of course infantry will follow up quickly - assuming the objective is to hold the territory.

If you go way back to early 18th century and before, smooth bore long guns were common in military formations.  They were reasonably effective as volley weapons, given how rigid formations lined up in that era.

In our context, I do think "lone wolf" or at least a small squad is how you need to judge the effectiveness of any rifle.
Title: Re: Falling Out of Love With the AR
Post by: David in MN on February 28, 2019, 02:03:09 PM
I really liked the argument. And it is framed in the context of metrics. Speed of follow up shot matters. Ammo carrying capacity matters. Reloading speed matters. And even the greatest rifles of WWII were being phased out because they didn't do those things well. One could make an argument they were already outdated in WWI.

I think I can make a case that a modern bolt action with lightweight modern materials, detachable mags, and a reliable optic is a far cry from a surplus gun but I'll never win in the time debate. If multiple shots on target quick is the goal you really need a distant target to beat the 5.56. I might make the case for a larger caliber for wildlife safety or argue that in very confined environments I prefer a shotgun but for combat effectiveness it's hard to beat the AR/AK.

Also worth bearing in mind that even the military sees the need to overlap these abilities. While some M16/M4 is obviously the #1 issue they still have M14s and shotguns. Along with some full auto guns we won't be putting our hands on.

I guess it makes the distinction between a "scout rifle" and a "patrol rifle". Different guns for different purposes. I might be right that my scout is easier to carry through the wilderness of northern MN but if I wanted a fast follow-up and ease of sending lead the patrol rifle is king. Much the same as a "dangerous game" gun is often double barreled. You want a fast follow up on the lion.

And it is worth bearing in mind that showing up to a 3 gun shoot with a Mosin Nagant, single shot .410, and a Webley isn't a good way to win. But that .410 would be at home by the back door of a farm house for dipatching pests. I can't think of a use where a Mosin or Webley wouldn't be outclassed but I'm sure they have uses too; even if it's just for kicks.

I also need to bear in mind that my sporting shotgun (Winchester SX3) and my home defense shotgun (Remington 870) have almost nothing in common. The HD sees only #4, 00, and slugs while the sporter gets all manner of bird shot from upland game to 9 shot. Maybe it makes sense that the sporting rifle I carry on the trail or if I'm out in farm country isn't the same I'd want in a bad SHTF scenario.

I'm still thinking this over. Really coming to the conclusion (for now) that they all have a place.
Title: Re: Falling Out of Love With the AR
Post by: Smurf Hunter on March 01, 2019, 10:16:54 AM
If you'll indulge a combat fantasy for a moment...

If we're in a guerrilla/red dawn type environment, where we are defending our territory against a numerically and technologically superior invaders, I see two general types of engagement with that enemy:

1) long range scout (potentially sniper, but that gets into another thread)
2) ambush/raids

#1 is not looking for trouble necessarily, but may engage targets of opportunity. If you're just one dude, getting some distance between you and return fire seems desirable.
#2 requires the attackers to get in and out fast, and maximizing damage and casualties as quickly. Think of ambushing a convoy or raiding some supply cache.

This was true a century ago, and frankly I don't see the fundamentals changing a whole lot even with aerial drones and all the fancy tech today.


The conclusion I draw from this, is that the .30 cal battle rifle is suboptimal for either above.  In a way its a compromise between precision bolt and fighting carbine.  For the raid, I want light and fast.  A physically light weight load out, but also something with fast repeat shots.  For the scout/sniper, you may only squeeze off a few rounds total, so accuracy and reliability of hits is more important.
Title: Re: Falling Out of Love With the AR
Post by: iam4liberty on March 01, 2019, 04:29:58 PM
One of the primary reasons 7.62 is called upon over 5.56 is anti-material impact (destroying machines, penetrating through bariers, etc).  The 7.62X51 is significantly better at stopping vehicles and will in fact penetrate through a car impacting those seeking cover on the other side.  5.56 will typically pentrate into an auto but not through it. See here where single rounds of 7.62X51 will penetrate 1/2 inch steel plate while 556 requires multiple hits in same place: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJFhIiomoKw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJFhIiomoKw).  So in defending a position there is a real advantage to 7.62x51.
Title: Re: Falling Out of Love With the AR
Post by: FreeLancer on March 01, 2019, 08:54:19 PM
So in defending a position there is a real advantage to 7.62x51.

Hopefully, because that’s the best rifle/cartridge combo I can legally get my hands on.
Title: Re: Falling Out of Love With the AR
Post by: iam4liberty on March 01, 2019, 09:26:35 PM
Hopefully, because that’s the best rifle/cartridge combo I can legally get my hands on.

Penetration was the reason for the ICSR (in addition to out distancing). 

https://taskandpurpose.com/army-officially-launches-competition-new-7-62mm-combat-rifle (https://taskandpurpose.com/army-officially-launches-competition-new-7-62mm-combat-rifle)
Army Officially Launches Competition For A New 7.62mm Combat Rifle

"The Army has identified a potential gap in the capability of ground forces and infantry to penetrate body armor using existing ammunition,” the solicitation reads. The program’s ultimate objective “is to acquire and field a 7.62mm ICSR that will increase soldier lethality."

The call for a new 7.62mm rifle emerged from a requirement direct by Vice Chief of Staff Gen. Daniel Allyn in April, Military.com reported.

The new rifle must be chambered in 7.62x51mm, not the standard 5.56x45mm used by the Army and that Congress has been pushing the Marine Corps to adopt.
...
The ICSR program comes after Army Gen. Mark Milley, Army Chief of Staff, admitted to Congress that the Army’s M855A1 Enhanced Performance Round cannot penetrate armor plates that may be used by future enemies.

The Army also continues to be concerned about overmatch (the out-ranging of soldiers on the battlefield by enemy small arms — a problem discovered in Afghanistan) and the need to penetrate increasingly prolific cheap ballistic body armor.
Title: Re: Falling Out of Love With the AR
Post by: Ken325 on March 02, 2019, 01:07:34 AM
I used to read a lot about real experiences by people who lived in countries that had an economic collapse or natural disaster.  One thing I noticed is how rare a real without rule of law (WROL) situation is. Really the only time this happens is if your in a civil war.  In most cases your talking 3-5 days without law enforcment or you are talking about a corrupt or overwhelmed police force.  I worked in New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina and I can tell you for a fact that it took over an hour for police to respond when someone drew a gun on one of our workcrews.  But here is the thing, they did eventually show up.  If you snipe  someone at 500 yards you are never going to be able to claim self defense in court.  If you show up in court after using an evil looking AR15 for self defense your chances of winning just went down by at least 25%.  So my first choice would be an old worn out looking Remington 870 pump shotgun.  It is still leathal and effective up to 100 yards with slugs.  If you go to court you can say you used grandads old shotgun when you were in fear for your life.  If you use a $1500 dollar AR with a $1000 scope loaded with $5/ea zombie killer bullets the prosecution will say your a vigilante who was looking for trouble.

That said I still own 2 ARs. Cheap ammo, low recoil, fun to shoot, and good accuracy.  It is the ideal compitetion gun and if we ever have a civil war (looking more likely) then your ready.

If I have to bug out on foot I'm taking a Marlin Papouse take-down 22 with a few 20 round mags and about 400 rounds of CCI Mini-Mag ammo and 100 rounds of sub-balistic ammo.
Title: Re: Falling Out of Love With the AR
Post by: David in MN on March 02, 2019, 07:42:56 AM
It's tough. Bear in mind that if all we cared about was penetration .50 BMG and .338 Lapua would rule the day. If we looked at capacity .22 short would be king.

Here's a very real question... If you were in a firefight relatively close would you rather a WWII bolt or a 10/22? We only need look at WWII to learn that actual combat favors volume over accuracy. This is the proving ground of the Thompson, grease gun, Sten, and Sturmgewehr. The aftermath saw the development of the AK by a Russian tank operator who wanted something at hand that was small yet capable.

And then there is the lesson of WWI where in the trenches a loooooooong bolt gun was useless. Knives and grenades were preferred to issued rifles. And it's not hard to imagine that if you're James Bond retaking a boat you'd rather an MP5 than a BAR...

I will advocate that there is no better balance of power and volume than the AR. But it's hard to be all things in all places. I can imagine a dense forest where a .44 magnum "mare's leg" is a great gun. The 30-30 levers shine there too. Contrast that with open tundra and you soon find that the Finnish make some of the longest and biggest caliber guns in history.

Cracking this nut is not easy. If I was told I had to lead a force on force mission with lots of unknowns the AR is ideal. If I'm out on a scout mission maybe not. And I'm out hiking in the wilderness in peacetime frankly there are better options.

I'm going long but I want to add one more point. We very much misunderstand snipers because of movies. Even the legends of WWII didn't shoot very far. The ammo, rifles, and optics all kinda sucked compared to today. And modern snipers use weapons and choose locations where they know the dope or offer a view with intel options. We would never make the mistake of putting Vasily Zaytsev and Chris Kyle in the same group (I hope). Vastly different roles.
Title: Re: Falling Out of Love With the AR
Post by: iam4liberty on March 02, 2019, 08:15:50 AM
If you snipe  someone at 500 yards you are never going to be able to claim self defense in court.  If you show up in court after using an evil looking AR15 for self defense your chances of winning just went down by at least 25%.

More likely than a WROL situation is having to deal with a rifle bearing attacker.  Classic example is the University of Texas Tower Shooter. Perps take high ground with rifle and only way to take them out is with a direct rifle hit from you or the laying down of suppressive fire so others can get close enough to storm the position.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Texas_tower_shooting (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Texas_tower_shooting)

Officer Houston McCoy, 26, heard of the shooting on his radio. As he looked for a way into the tower, a student offered to help, saying he had a rifle at home. McCoy drove the student to his home to retrieve the rifle.
...
Officers attempting to reach the tower were forced to move slowly and take cover often, but a small group of officers including Houston McCoy began making their way to the tower via underground maintenance tunnels.[32] Officers and several civilians provided suppressive fire from the ground with small weapons and hunting rifles, forcing Whitman to stay low and fire through storm drains at the foot of the observation deck's wall. A police sharpshooter in a small plane was driven back by Whitman's return fire[33] but continued to circle at a distance, seeking to distract Whitman and further limit his freedom to choose targets.


It works the other way too, where the good guys take the high ground with rifles and are able to repel large numbers of bad guys.  Example would be the defense of K-town during the LA riots. The use of rifles saved their homes and businesses.

(https://i.redd.it/77re15bcv9u11.jpg)

(https://dailystormer.name/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Daily-Stormer-Muffugguh-537-310x165.jpg)

Not sure about court disadvantage in other states, but here the use of rifle to defend home is a plus. Police know if you use a rifle that you were likely not an instigator.  Generally, criminals use easily concealable weapons.  Chance of going to court in a home defense situstion where you use a rifle, no matter how configured, is virtually zero.  Example:

https://web.archive.org/web/20090321081341/http://www.courierpress.com/news/2009/mar/15/police-armed-burglar-shot-resident/ (https://web.archive.org/web/20090321081341/http://www.courierpress.com/news/2009/mar/15/police-armed-burglar-shot-resident/)
Home invasion ends in shooting
Injured intruder run over by accomplices


Awakened by the noise of a group of men kicking in his apartment door early Sunday morning, Derrick G. Murray rushed to retrieve the assault rifle he keeps in his bedroom for protection.

Only seconds later, he pulled the trigger, shooting one of the intruders in the leg and sending all of them fleeing from the residence they had just invaded.

Speaking Sunday afternoon on the front steps of the South Side house where it happened, Murray said his thoughts at that moment turned to his four children and how inaction might mean missing out on their futures.

"I just felt like 'I can't die right now,'" Murray said. "I got too many kids, I got too much to lose. I can't die right now."
...
Evansville Police Department detective Sgt. Larry Nelson said Murray acted well within his rights in firing on Clark.

"He had a right to protect himself," Nelson said, adding no permit was necessary for Murray to keep the gun in his home.

It happened about 5 a.m. when Murray was the only one in the apartment, which sits on the southwest corner of Riverside and Elliott Street.

The children — who range in age from 2 to 7 — happened to be gone, visiting Mississippi with their mother, Murray said.

Had the children been home, Murray said he would have responded to the intruders with even greater force.

"It would have been a death sentence," he said. "You don't do that to a man when he's with his kids at all. It would have been much uglier. That gun held 60 rounds and I would have shot all 60 at them."
...
"I'm still breathing," he said. "I feel good. And I can see my kids when they pull up in a couple hours."






Title: Re: Falling Out of Love With the AR
Post by: iam4liberty on March 02, 2019, 09:01:22 AM
I will advocate that there is no better balance of power and volume than the AR. But it's hard to be all things in all places. I can imagine a dense forest where a .44 magnum "mare's leg" is a great gun. The 30-30 levers shine there too. Contrast that with open tundra and you soon find that the Finnish make some of the longest and biggest caliber guns in history.

Cracking this nut is not easy. If I was told I had to lead a force on force mission with lots of unknowns the AR is ideal. If I'm out on a scout mission maybe not. And I'm out hiking in the wilderness in peacetime frankly there are better options.

Yes.  It is helpful to think of archetypes.  From another thread:

Yes, and it can also be helpful to a lot of new preppers to see the different angles of the decision.  After reading probably a hundred threads like this on various forums a few archetypes have emerged.   Basically there is relationship between people's prepping philosophy/goals and their firearm choices.  The below is a summary.  To me all of these archetypes are positive role models so I hope no-one takes my descriptions in a negative vein.

Mountain Man Mike.   To Mike the goal of prepping is to become self-sufficient.  His time and effort are devoted to living a life of freedom from others in his cabin.  He sees a rifle as a means to this end, primarily helping him put meat on the table to augment what he raises.  But like all technology he employs, he desires to be able to maintain it on his own.  His 45 caliber muzzleloading rifle serves this purpose well being able to harvest all types of game by varying the powder charge; squirrel, rabbit, turkey, deer.  Nearby pockets of flint and galena provide him ignition and ball.  And he has learned to make powder from chicken droppings.  He has also developed both wood and metal working skills so is confident in making any needed repairs himself.

City Sue.  Sue loves the convenience of the city, especially not having to spend money or time taking care of a car, house, or property.  But she also knows the city has a dark side; people who will do her harm for profit, pleasure, or both.  To her mind this includes the possibility of full scale riots where all rule of law is lost.  The rifle serves two jobs for her, defending the apartment and keeping her safe should she need to meet up with her friends to bug out on foot.  The rifle and its ammunition needs to be lightweight so she can carry it.  She isn't concerned about making shots past 100 yards but is concerned about getting in an extended engagement with multiple adversaries and running out of ammo.  To her the compactness, magazine capacity, and relative lightness of ammo makes semi-auto carbines like the M4 style AR 15, AK 47, and vz 58 ideal choices.

Rancher Rick.  Rick like many homesteaders sees his rifle as nothing more than an important tool.  As such he needs it to be "handy" - that is easy to have on hand when he goes about his property and easy to use when a job needs to be done.  Typically this means protecting his livestock and crops from predators and pests.  His pistol caliber lever action rifle has just the power and range he needs.  It has proven reliable and robust and as an added bonus uses the same reloading components as the revolvers he keeps in his truck and at the home.

Bunker Bob and Betty.  To Bob and Betty the motto "be prepared" means having the resources stored away to survive any storm, should that be a natural or a man-made one.  Even a 'Red Dawn' military invasion is on their list of possibilities to prep against.  Needless to say, they take the physical security of their 'bug-in bungalow' seriously and to them a rifle is a means to reach out and touch intruders before they are able to touch them.  Towards this end they have mapped the distance from the home to notable landmarks out to 600 yards in every direction.  This way they know precisely the sight adjustments needed on their battle rifles to hit any target within this range.  While they looked at the M1 Garand, FN FAL, HK G3, and several others they settled on matching M1As as a fine blend of reliability, accuracy, power, and capacity for controlling the 'rifleman's quarter mile'.

Suburban Sarah and Sam. To Sarah and her husband Sam a rifle is a means of recreation.   Once every couple of months they go on a 'plinking date' at their local range and once a year they go to her parents' property to deer stand hunt.  But they also realize that problems aren't always isolated to the city and that a rifle can be an added asset to their pistol in defending their cul-de-sac in a time of trouble.  They prefer to use the limited "gun time" they have for fun pursuits and view reloading and home gunsmithing as chores they rather not add to their list.  So they appreciate major manufacturer warrantied firearm models in calibers stocked at the local Walmart.  They are also concerned about what their neighbors think and especially don't want to be labeled 'gun nuts'.  They looked at a variety of bolt and semi-auto rifles before choosing a scoped Ruger Mini-30 with ten round mags.   It is 'enough gun' for deer hunting and they can plink with cheap ammo but it also gives them options in a SHTF scenario.
Title: Re: Falling Out of Love With the AR
Post by: FreeLancer on March 02, 2019, 10:44:40 AM
My neighborhood is surrounded by high ground with a single paved entrance in front and a dirt fire road in back with long straight line visibilities. Probably only need a pair of defensive positions to cover the neighborhood and roadblocks (gangbanger lowriders in front, white trash 4x4s in back) with M1As.

I don’t see myself raiding, ambushing, or assaulting anyone else’s position so mobility and firepower deficiencies don’t count against my scenario as much.
Title: Re: Falling Out of Love With the AR
Post by: David in MN on March 04, 2019, 09:24:29 AM
My neighborhood is surrounded by high ground with a single paved entrance in front and a dirt fire road in back with long straight line visibilities. Probably only need a pair of defensive positions to cover the neighborhood and roadblocks (gangbanger lowriders in front, white trash 4x4s in back) with M1As.

I don’t see myself raiding, ambushing, or assaulting anyone else’s position so mobility and firepower deficiencies don’t count against my scenario as much.

I'm kinda similar in that I'm almost at the end of a 300 yard road that dead ends into a park with a pond. Maybe part of the bias. Also maybe good advice for young homebuyers. Buy the high ground cul-de-sac. Even in a worst case WROL we're pretty easily guarded by a handful.

Liberty, I often forget that every time I have an epiphany you had it 2 years ago. And living where I do the young men all buy a .30-06. You might be deer hunting in a dense forest or elk hunting on open range so you buy the one gun that does it all. Older wealthier people (like my age  :() may buy specialized guns for purpose but when you're young and poor and don't know you look for the utility gun. Then there are crazies like my brother in law who get the .300 Winmag cause if you can't hit the deer might as well scare it to death...

Beyond location there are other concerns. Will you be walking? Skiing? Horseback? Motorcycle? Is it -25? Here's one we all forget... Are you competing? Competition has really changed our gun market. From long slide Glocks to 1911 "space guns" the competitive market has had a lot of influence. And that is one area where the AR is king. But it's also a funny influence because when I race at the gun club it's my Kimber 1911 vs. (the other better than me pistol shooter) a CZ-75 that has a ton of work. And neither of us put those guns on our hip when we leave.

There's lots of bias here. But I think it's worth considering what is practical for me. Maybe it's multiple. Maybe it changes seasonally. I have many (maybe 7) axes. 2 machetes. Maybe I'm a little off looking to optimize one gun when I have a shed full of shovels. And thinking tools I don't have a "compromise hammer".

And thinking about what Freelancer wrote my street might be optimally defended with a flaming Uhaul.
Title: Re: Falling Out of Love With the AR
Post by: FreeLancer on March 05, 2019, 12:36:05 AM
And thinking about what Freelancer wrote my street might be optimally defended with a flaming Uhaul.

Any extra layer of defense that could save a bunch of shooting is a good thing. 

After a little more reflection, the entrances to my development could so easily be turned into uphill murder funnels it's almost like they excavated it out of the badlands with that in mind.  I just ran some elevation sight lines on Google Earth to double check the pair of defensive positions I envisioned and came up with an unobstructed 300 degree 400 to 10 yard field of fire in front, and 360 degree 800+ to point blank, out back.  This back position could reach the 450 yards, well above the homes, across to the ridge line on the opposite side of the development. 
Title: Re: Falling Out of Love With the AR
Post by: David in MN on March 05, 2019, 08:41:23 AM
Any extra layer of defense that could save a bunch of shooting is a good thing. 

After a little more reflection, the entrances to my development could so easily be turned into uphill murder funnels it's almost like they excavated it out of the badlands with that in mind.  I just ran some elevation sight lines on Google Earth to double check the pair of defensive positions I envisioned and came up with an unobstructed 300 degree 400 to 10 yard field of fire in front, and 360 degree 800+ to point blank, out back.  This back position could reach the 450 yards, well above the homes, across to the ridge line on the opposite side of the development.

I'm on flat land but the burbs here were built with long swooping curves and fingers jutting off of them (if that makes sense). I am in a dead end off a ring that dead ends. In the summer passing between the "fingers" is hard because of fences and hedges and in the winter snow it's downright impossible. I couldn't go out my back door if I wanted to. So in the event of civil unrest we'd be pointing hunting rifles down the street.

It's one thing if you live on a standard city block. But out here our roads are controlled by the river (Mississippi) and lakes and things like that. My uncle is on top of a big hill in CA and jokes that his civil unrest plan is a big rolling log. Spartacus style. All jokes aside if you live in a non-traditional layout there likely is some opportunity to make use of the land and roads. We also like that "there is no reason to come down our road".

All this plays a part in my gun bias. I'll confess I know that few neighbors have access to a shotgun. Somebody would have to be pretty dumb to cause trouble down a dead-end where there are a few armed retirees and a stay at home dad. And I like the shotgun for that. But come a need for neighborhood defense we could put a picnic table in the cul-de-sac and basically bench rest a couple deer rifles.

All worth thinking about when choosing a rifle.
Title: Re: Falling Out of Love With the AR
Post by: Smurf Hunter on March 06, 2019, 12:44:46 PM
My grandfather was big on real estate.  He used to flip distressed properties in south Los Angeles in the '70s and early '80s.
He always advised living on a hill if possible.

They survived the Watts and Rodney King riots both.  Not that either were in very close proximity, but there's anecdotal evidence that rioters and looters are on the lazy side.  I guess the 500ft hill climb is an added barrier.
Title: Re: Falling Out of Love With the AR
Post by: FreeLancer on March 06, 2019, 01:32:27 PM
Yeah, I don’t know about the rest of the world, but out here the gangbangers do travel on foot sometimes, but not far from the hood, and even less after the pavement ends. They really don’t like being in the ‘wilderness” and get spooked easily in that environment.   White trash don’t mind the “wilderness” so long as they can drive through it, but they don’t walk any further than they can throw an empty beer can.