The Survival Podcast Forum

Finance and Economics => The Money Board => Economic News, the Global Economy and all Things Monetary => Topic started by: David in MN on January 17, 2019, 11:59:24 AM

Title: The Economic Fallout of Alienating Customers
Post by: David in MN on January 17, 2019, 11:59:24 AM
I'm writing this partially inspired by the recent Gillette promo video about how men need to behave better that (I'm not making this up) asserts that men would rather grill thann protect their children, portrays women as helpless victims who need male rescuing, and tells us that saying hi to a pretty girl "isn't cool". You can watch it here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koPmuEyP3a0

I did email the company to tell them the video was very offensive to men, women, and Armenians (they chose a Young Turks media clip because they clearly don't know the history there). And I politely let them know I would cease using their products and take a long look at other P&G products. But why would they shoot themselves ibn the foot? Why would a razor company put out an ad about male behavior and alienate their largest customer base?

I emailed it out to some friends and got an odd reply from one, a gamer. "It's Battlefield V all over again". I'll put a link to the official trailer and an article about it here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDgFmLUOClI
https://www.fudzilla.com/news/gaming/47936-battlefield-5-blows-a-hole-in-ea-s-bottom-line

Basically the trailer came out and the nerdy guys who like WWII games were shaking their heads wondering why a lead character was a woman with a prosthetic arm. Gamers have no problem with female characters and women did serve in WWII (notably in Russia) but it felt out of place and preachy. The game also suffered from gameplay issues and its release tanked Electronic Arts stock 45% and forced them to lower earnings estimates for FY2019. But you have to wonder, do they no know what their consumer wants in a WWII shooter game?

They're not alone. Facebook fell nearly 50% in FY 2018. And rightly or wrongly half this country believes Facebook got Trump elected and the other half believes they are actively drumming out conservatives. And both those sides might have a little bit of a case! I'd call that PR nightmare and their share price drop clearly shows they are not handling it well. I can't believe that no one at Facebook was smart enough to say "we're just a non-policing platform and all are welcome  to use our site provided they don't commit a crime." Boom. Nobody leaves in disgust.

I see it in Chick-fil-A too. I don't understand the link between abortion and sandwiches. Have whatever opinions in your private life but run your business to make money. Acting any other way is unethical by business standards and is actually a financial crime.

And I see this in privately held business too. Why doesn't the Christian baker put a big sign out front that he doesn't make gay wedding cakes? Why does he inform a gay couple quietly in the back? He knows if he puts out the sign people like me will think him a bigot who doesn't tend well to his business and walk to the next bakery. I know I can't get a ham sandwich at a Jewish deli but I knew that when I walked in.

I'm appalled by these examples of people running their business for some other reason than to be the best in their industry. But the trend is coming real for me. Companies who alienate potential consumers or their core demographic end up losing money. I've just finished divesting myself from P&G over the Gillette ad. I don't know what they're working on right now but clearly supplying me with the best razor at the best price isn't it. And I don't invest in companies who have lost their consumer focus. Ideology (in any direction) is not a market force and it's become one of my lead indicators that a business is failing. I hate to admit that but the trend is appearing. You can't invest in a concern that doesn't put their product or service first. It's been the oddest financial news of 2018.
Title: Re: The Economic Fallout of Alienating Customers
Post by: surfivor on January 18, 2019, 04:02:28 PM
Quote
I did email the company to tell them the video was very offensive to men

offensive to men ? That's a new one. I didn't know there was such a thing ?

 :sarcasm:
Title: Re: The Economic Fallout of Alienating Customers
Post by: David in MN on January 19, 2019, 10:02:59 AM
offensive to men ? That's a new one. I didn't know there was such a thing ?

 :sarcasm:

Well in the US about 80% of all discretionary spending is controlled by women. Marketers know this and it's why for decades the vast majority of products had an advertising slant to women and why all the sitcoms make guys appear dumb. You can't poke fun at women and then market to them. And it's not that hard to figure out the demographics where men control the spending. While the vast majority of products are marketed to women it's real easy to get products that "men buy". It's not some freak accident that they advertise beer and pickup trucks during football games. If you watch CNBC or Bloomberg you get adverts about golf clubs, European sports cars, and fancy watches.

Now we laugh this off a little and might even take some offense to 80s commercials where selling beer seemed to require barely clothed women but big businesses spend a lot of money getting this right. As a former product developer it's a big chunk of the day. You want the right product at the right price marketed to the right segment of the population. Just think of the money spent by companies to know which segments of the population are getting married or expecting a child. Products are targeted by every demographic you can imagine.

That's what blows my mind about these companies. I know Electronic Arts is selling Battlefield V to almost exclusively young men and the desired product is an immersive WWII experience. They know that a female character with a robot arm doesn't belong. It breaks the experience. Maybe the core consumer would actually enjoy unlocking a secret to meet one of the legendary Soviet female snipers. But they should have known their choices were a little off and not delivering the desiredd product.

And with Gillette... Could you imagine if Michael Kors had a commercial with a tagline of "Women need to stop dressing like whores". Never. Think of the cliche of being asked to leave a restaurant because you're not dressed well enough. Doesn't happen anymore. You just don't talk down to your customers.

When you develop a product or make advertising it's not a guessing game. You do tests and focus groups to make sure you have it right and are attracting the right customer. With the exception of Facebook which seems to relish in making poor decisions that alienate users these are companies who should know they are not delivering on consumer expectation. It smacks of the old Jon Stewart joke about moving to Israel to open a Saturday only pork emporium. I can forgive young tech execs who don't know how to craft a clean message to not offend users (though it's not really hard) Electronic Arts and P&G have been in their businesses a long time.

At the end of the day this disregard for fundamental business practices is starting to show up in earnings. Abandoning a consumer focus is a sure way to kill profits.
Title: Re: The Economic Fallout of Alienating Customers
Post by: surfivor on January 20, 2019, 09:40:02 AM
Youtube, facebook and others censor people for reasons other than economic. I don't know that there is some agenda that is not strictly economic. Others claim this or that politically correct policy leads to a stronger society, but it is just something people seem to subscribe to that you aren't allowed to question. You just thought or assumed it would always be based on the market etc
Title: Re: The Economic Fallout of Alienating Customers
Post by: Smurf Hunter on January 21, 2019, 10:54:01 AM
While not exactly a consumer business with "customers", I feel this way about the NRA more often lately.
Title: Re: The Economic Fallout of Alienating Customers
Post by: David in MN on January 21, 2019, 12:46:52 PM
While not exactly a consumer business with "customers", I feel this way about the NRA more often lately.

I hate to say it but the NRA and ACLU have lost me as well. And while I'm not up to snuff with them I have heard rumblings from friends that the ADL and Southern Poverty Law Center are careening out of control as well. I know Dave Rubin called the ADL something like a "pointless shill group".

I guess all these companies and non-profits just missed the news about The Weekly Standard. They alienated their base and now they're gone. And it happened quick.

I just don't get it. If I do client work my client is my only concern. I might make a suggestion like which woods work well together or how I'd recommend doing joinery. But at the end of the day the guy cutting the check calls the shots. You don't bite the hand that feeds you. I can't believe that this isn't known.
Title: Re: The Economic Fallout of Alienating Customers
Post by: David in MN on January 22, 2019, 01:47:16 PM
Egard Watches is the first to make a counter commercial to Gillette. The tagline is "we see the good in men".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_HL0wiK4Zc

They're currently backordered. This will be the marketing story of 2019.
Title: Re: The Economic Fallout of Alienating Customers
Post by: antsyaunt on January 22, 2019, 04:10:47 PM
I think it is a great ad.
Title: Re: The Economic Fallout of Alienating Customers
Post by: LvsChant on January 22, 2019, 08:24:56 PM
I also thought it was offensive... it seems to assume that the majority of men in the US need to be told their preachy little tips on correct behavior.

That being said... I don't think the majority of folks agree with me, based on what I am hearing on the feedback on the ad. Gillette must think that a majority of their customers will agree with the ad and think it is doing a good thing. And, I agree with you, David... those of us who do not like it should vote with our $$$'s
Title: Re: The Economic Fallout of Alienating Customers
Post by: iam4liberty on January 22, 2019, 09:29:01 PM
Gillette must think that a majority of their customers will agree with the ad and think it is doing a good thing. And, I agree with you, David... those of us who do not like it should vote with our $$$'s

Business rumor is that brand team was chasing an Emmy to advance their careers.  Recently another P&G team won an Emmy for their "brand purpose" campaign and they were corporately made.  This created a perverse incentive for others to pursue an edgy campaign.  Gillette's financials have been falling for years, losing 30 share points since P&G acquired them.  They had to slash prices to stop the spiral. Also category is way down as more are growing beards.  So those on brand were looking for exit strategy.  This seemed like a good try as few companies had tried co-opting me too movement. Plus they have been getting harassed by feminist activists for the "pink tax" and thought this could neutralize that.

They are getting hammered.  Google trends show a 300% increase in people searching for their competitors.  This dropped a huge amount of cash in their competitors pockets which they are plowing back jnto ads.  it you watched the ad on youtube you are probably getting hammered by ads for Schick, Dollar Shave Club, and Harry's.  It is a shark frenzy.
Title: Re: The Economic Fallout of Alienating Customers
Post by: antsyaunt on January 23, 2019, 05:25:51 AM
I think it is a great ad.

To clarify, I think the watch ad is a great one.  As I told my husband, some of my favorite people are men!   ;D
Title: Re: The Economic Fallout of Alienating Customers
Post by: David in MN on January 23, 2019, 06:35:25 AM
I can't believe more people haven't come after Gillette for their portrayal of women. To preach that men need to hold each other to a higher standard implies that women are powerless to stand up for themselves. Normal, healthy women don't need a "white knight". I can't imagine raising my daughter to believe that she can rely on "a man standing up for her". I can get behind the idea that women are disadvantaged to men physically in an altercation but the idea that a woman lacks the capacity to determine who talks to her and how she is treated is gross.

New razor is arriving today.

Business rumor is that brand team was chasing an Emmy to advance their careers.  Recently another P&G team won an Emmy for their "brand purpose" campaign and they were corporately made.  This created a perverse incentive for others to pursue an edgy campaign.  Gillette's financials have been falling for years, losing 30 share points since P&G acquired them.  They had to slash prices to stop the spiral. Also category is way down as more are growing beards.  So those on brand were looking for exit strategy.  This seemed like a good try as few companies had tried co-opting me too movement. Plus they have been getting harassed by feminist activists for the "pink tax" and thought this could neutralize that.

They are getting hammered.  Google trends show a 300% increase in people searching for their competitors.  This dropped a huge amount of cash in their competitors pockets which they are plowing back jnto ads.  it you watched the ad on youtube you are probably getting hammered by ads for Schick, Dollar Shave Club, and Harry's.  It is a shark frenzy.

It has been a debate in my trading mastermind group. I'm dumbfounded that otherwise smart people take the tack that all press is good. I immediately am of the belief that this is the last lunge of the dinosaur in the tar pit. Clearly there is a problem in management. How could this have been consumer tested? Or are we just running things up the flagpole and seeing what happens? If that's the case for P&G... I'm glad they're out of my portfolio. That's a monstrous red flag. I've seen groupthink hurt businesses but directly insulting your core demographic is just nuts.

To add insult to injury they are deleting comments and changing the like/dislike. You don't get away with that in 2019.

I don't understand the thought process. Men tend to  be creatures of habit. I've used the same razor since I was 16. Over 20 years. And now I'm going to toss it. When I turned 16 they sent me the handle for free knowing I'd be a customer for life. Well the current brand team squandered that. And what if I buy every guy in the family a brand new competitor for Christmas? Every guy is like me with an ancient razor. If I show up and say "hey try this new one it works better" I might  just strip a few customers.

There are layers on layers of why this was stupid.
Title: Re: The Economic Fallout of Alienating Customers
Post by: iam4liberty on January 23, 2019, 07:27:34 AM
P&G used to have the best ad copytesting system in the world which drove their marketing success for decades.  This included use of high reputation firms like IPSOS and ARS Group which were experts in measuring behavioral brand preference shifts among category purchasers.  Brand preference is what drives share and sales.  But in in early 2010s on prompting of agencies many brand teams shifted into use of unvalidated "image" measures or neural response (eg brainwaves). So even when they test their ads it doesnt pick up sales impact. Nothing is as sensitive as brand preference.

Unfortunately the "consumer is boss" mantra has fallen heavily at P&G.  Until that is revised sales will continue to flaunder and retailers like Walmart will continue to give more shelf space to competitors creating a self-feeding process.
Title: Re: The Economic Fallout of Alienating Customers
Post by: iam4liberty on January 23, 2019, 10:54:42 AM
https://www.ntd.com/sales-surge-after-watch-company-counters-gillettes-toxic-masculinity-ad_279527.html/amp (https://www.ntd.com/sales-surge-after-watch-company-counters-gillettes-toxic-masculinity-ad_279527.html/amp)
Sales Surge After Watch Company Counters Gillette’s ‘Toxic Masculinity’ Ad
Title: Re: The Economic Fallout of Alienating Customers
Post by: bigbear on January 23, 2019, 02:11:08 PM
Honestly, I think it's much ado about nothing.  Sometimes a man needs the stick (Gillette's challenge) and sometimes a man needs a carrot (Egard's value).  I think there are many men who need to 'man up,' but I'm not sure a commercial is the place for it. 

But even better is this Egard video made before the Gillette fallout.  I see a man who values the influence his father had on his life.  And desires to have (and help other men have) that type of influence on their child's life by valuing his (and our) time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RrF5rlmghY
Title: Re: The Economic Fallout of Alienating Customers
Post by: surfivor on January 23, 2019, 03:32:23 PM
 I watched the ad and wasn't sure what it was saying but I probably won't buy Gillette stuff anyway as I get tired of this kind of thing.
Title: Re: The Economic Fallout of Alienating Customers
Post by: iam4liberty on January 23, 2019, 04:11:14 PM
Mark Ritson, a well-known marketing professor, hits it out of the park with this article in a leading professional mag:

https://www.marketingweek.com/2019/01/15/mark-ritson-gillette-ad-toxic-masculinity/ (https://www.marketingweek.com/2019/01/15/mark-ritson-gillette-ad-toxic-masculinity/)

Great quote: "There is a special place in marketing hell for companies that invest money into things that ultimately make their situation much worse."
Title: Re: The Economic Fallout of Alienating Customers
Post by: David in MN on January 23, 2019, 04:57:36 PM
I've read some hilarious articles about how this is the marketing disaster of the century. I actually had a former colleague, a marketing manager, email me and ponder how someone could fail marketing against sexism, something we all believe. They stole defeat from the jaws of victory.

I did a back of the envelope with dad today (because engineers and accountants share the same DNA) and here's our math... I can buy 15 blades for my old Mach 3 (yeah, my razor is ancient) for about $25. So say a blade is $1.67 to me. Let's just say for agument's sake to make math easy I spend $1 on razors per week. I actually spend $1.67 because I like a fresh razor but $1 per week is easy math. Again with keeping in easy math let's say I live another 40 years.

$1.00*52*40= $2080

That's what Gillette has lost from me. If 1000 guys agree with me that's $2,080,000. Forbes reports the brand worth 17 billion and annual sales worth 6.6 billion. If a million guys switch it's devastating. It's possibly the biggest marketing debacle in a long time.

On a related note I ordered a highly rated safety razor from Amazon and it touches up the beard perfectly. I love it. I'm gone. They're losing customers in an industry with furious brand loyalty. As in I kept my Mach 3 when they made newer models. But they are so dumb they'll let me emotionally invest in a new razor that cost money (so I might fall victim to sunk cost) and let me try the competition. They are putting the cost of new customers ahead of retaining customers (anyone with serious business experience just vomited) in an industry that relies on repeat business.

It's befuddling.
Title: Re: The Economic Fallout of Alienating Customers
Post by: iam4liberty on January 23, 2019, 09:25:27 PM
Wow.  Both Schick and Dollar Shave Club search peaked at 4 times previous level and it is still at 2 times level. This is like launching a huge ad campaign at zero cost. 

(http://www.libertyassociate.com/survival_podcast/Schickdollar.png)
Title: Re: The Economic Fallout of Alienating Customers
Post by: LvsChant on January 24, 2019, 04:58:08 PM
My oldest son really likes Dollar Shave Club, and was already a customer... I typically buy whatever razors are on sale to stock the family cupboard, so no brand loyalty here for my husband and other son. However, I will probably try to avoid Gillette in the future... so they have even lost a few others as well in this mess.
Title: Re: The Economic Fallout of Alienating Customers
Post by: iam4liberty on January 24, 2019, 06:39:30 PM
More details from WSJ today.  P&G carefully avoided giving short term sales impact from ad.  It must be pretty bad.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/p-g-raises-outlook-after-another-quarter-of-strong-sales-11548246912 (https://www.wsj.com/articles/p-g-raises-outlook-after-another-quarter-of-strong-sales-11548246912)
P&G Raises Outlook After Another Quarter of Strong Sales
Consumer-products giant nudges up prices in buoyant U.S. economy


For P&G, the gains came from household spending across a number of categories, with beauty products leading the way. Organic sales, a closely watched metric that strips out currency moves, acquisitions and divestitures, rose 4% in its fiscal second quarter, ended Dec. 31. Only its grooming business, which includes the Gillette brand, posted a decline in organic sales in the period.

The Gillette shaving brand has faced competition from upstarts and has resorted to lowering prices to maintain its leading market share. Last week, Gillette released—to mixed consumer reactions—a campaign invoking the #MeToo movement.

In the conference call with reporters, Mr. Moeller said some people go as long as a year without buying shaving products, making for what he described as a “long-purchase-cycle business.” He also said the Gillette brand continues to add to its users and sales.
Title: Re: The Economic Fallout of Alienating Customers
Post by: Redman on January 25, 2019, 05:36:54 AM
I've read some hilarious articles about how this is the marketing disaster of the century. I actually had a former colleague, a marketing manager, email me and ponder how someone could fail marketing against sexism, something we all believe. They stole defeat from the jaws of victory.

I did a back of the envelope with dad today (because engineers and accountants share the same DNA) and here's our math... I can buy 15 blades for my old Mach 3 (yeah, my razor is ancient) for about $25. So say a blade is $1.67 to me. Let's just say for agument's sake to make math easy I spend $1 on razors per week. I actually spend $1.67 because I like a fresh razor but $1 per week is easy math. Again with keeping in easy math let's say I live another 40 years.

$1.00*52*40= $2080

That's what Gillette has lost from me. If 1000 guys agree with me that's $2,080,000. Forbes reports the brand worth 17 billion and annual sales worth 6.6 billion. If a million guys switch it's devastating. It's possibly the biggest marketing debacle in a long time.

On a related note I ordered a highly rated safety razor from Amazon and it touches up the beard perfectly. I love it. I'm gone. They're losing customers in an industry with furious brand loyalty. As in I kept my Mach 3 when they made newer models. But they are so dumb they'll let me emotionally invest in a new razor that cost money (so I might fall victim to sunk cost) and let me try the competition. They are putting the cost of new customers ahead of retaining customers (anyone with serious business experience just vomited) in an industry that relies on repeat business.

It's befuddling.

Good for you switching to a safety razor, double edge I assume. I made the switch almost 6 years ago. Bought a Merkur 33C, Van der Haven soap mug and brush w/soap, a 2 pk. of Wilkinson Sword German made DE blades all from Amazon. The blades were $0.40 ea. as I recall. All for around $50, don't remember and can't pull up the order. Since then I've spent $10 of 2 2pk. of Arko shaving soap. Only used 1 stick so far. Aprox $60 over 5 years, $12 yr. Oh yes those blades, I still have one unopened 5 pack of blades. They last very well for me even considering I'm retired and don't shave every day.

On DE blades, all are not created equal. Try various brands of blades and soap to find what works and lasts the best for you.
Title: Re: The Economic Fallout of Alienating Customers
Post by: David in MN on January 25, 2019, 06:52:30 AM
Good for you switching to a safety razor, double edge I assume. I made the switch almost 6 years ago. Bought a Merkur 33C, Van der Haven soap mug and brush w/soap, a 2 pk. of Wilkinson Sword German made DE blades all from Amazon. The blades were $0.40 ea. as I recall. All for around $50, don't remember and can't pull up the order. Since then I've spent $10 of 2 2pk. of Arko shaving soap. Only used 1 stick so far. Aprox $60 over 5 years, $12 yr. Oh yes those blades, I still have one unopened 5 pack of blades. They last very well for me even considering I'm retired and don't shave every day.

On DE blades, all are not created equal. Try various brands of blades and soap to find what works and lasts the best for you.

Well I'm new but I like it. I did some research and I'm learning. And it is amazing I will save money long term on blades.

This is what makes me question P&G. Guys are kinda dumb. If I offered a guy the newest most ergonomic hammer in the world he'd shrug and tell me he already has a hammer. It's the male version of stupidity. When offered a new product we say "well mine works just fine and I've been using it for years". So why would a company that needs me to re-order their products continuously insult their base? I would have plodded along forever with my old razor. Why let your consumer look for a better cheaper option?
Title: Re: The Economic Fallout of Alienating Customers
Post by: Redman on January 25, 2019, 07:02:42 AM
And if you are an aerosol shaving cream user consider the brush and soap thing. Beside being cheaper they can be much creamier/slicker. It takes some experimentation to get that and I don't always manage it. I've recently modified my angle of attack, changed the way I hold the razor to my skin, and am getting a much smoother shave and longer between shaving days.
Title: Re: The Economic Fallout of Alienating Customers
Post by: AvenueQ on January 25, 2019, 02:52:57 PM
Honestly, even though I lean waaaay left of most of the folks here on this forum, even I was cringing at this ad. Like yeah, I support reducing bullying and holding men accountable for their actions, but at the end of the day you really just want me to buy more razors. How are those two things connected, exactly?

It really smacks of older executives trying to bring back the "youths" to their brand with some trendy topic they heard about on Twitter, or maybe read a couple of articles on HuffPo, without fully investing in and understanding the cause and coming off as shallow and insensitive to the actual (legitimate, IMO) issues involved.
Title: Re: The Economic Fallout of Alienating Customers
Post by: iam4liberty on January 25, 2019, 03:45:00 PM
Honestly, even though I lean waaaay left of most of the folks here on this forum, even I was cringing at this ad. Like yeah, I support reducing bullying and holding men accountable for their actions, but at the end of the day you really just want me to buy more razors. How are those two things connected, exactly?

I think they could have had a home run with better agency talent. The concept was fine, the execution was horrid.  Instead of "masculinity is toxic" they could have went with "masculinity means standing up for others".  Instead of stereotyping all men as mysoginist sexual assaulters, they could of highlighted men who have gone the extra mile to protect others. Instead of showcasing a holocaust denier, they could have showcased the stories of men like Nicholas Winton (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POCCJ-8zds8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POCCJ-8zds8)) and Johan van Hulst (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/obituaries/2018/04/11/johan-van-hulst-rescued-jewish-children-amsterdam-obituary/ (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/obituaries/2018/04/11/johan-van-hulst-rescued-jewish-children-amsterdam-obituary/))  The idea is that they are honored to provide the "best razors a man can get" because men like these provide the best in life to others.  They could have inspired instead of insulted.

(https://b.marfeel.com/statics/i/ps/commdiginews-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/gilette-garrison.jpg?mrf-size=l)

Title: Re: The Economic Fallout of Alienating Customers
Post by: Morning Sunshine on January 25, 2019, 04:37:30 PM
I think they could have had a home run with better agency talent. The concept was fine, the execution was horrid.  Instead of "masculinity is toxic" they could have went with "masculinity means standing up for others".  Instead of stereotyping all men as mysoginist sexual assaulters, they could of highlighted men who have gone the extra mile to protect others. Instead of showcasing a holocaust denier, they could have showcased the stories of men like Nicholas Winton (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POCCJ-8zds8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POCCJ-8zds8)) and Johan van Hulst (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/obituaries/2018/04/11/johan-van-hulst-rescued-jewish-children-amsterdam-obituary/ (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/obituaries/2018/04/11/johan-van-hulst-rescued-jewish-children-amsterdam-obituary/))  The idea is that they are honored to provide the "best razors a man can get" because men like these provide the best in life to others.  They could have inspired instead of insulted.


yes.  this.
Title: Re: The Economic Fallout of Alienating Customers
Post by: Alan Georges on January 25, 2019, 05:50:13 PM
I can't even be bothered to watch the ad that's driving this discussion.  Now this is an ad for something I can get onboard with: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzC47F1DTO8&frags=pl%2Cwn (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzC47F1DTO8&frags=pl%2Cwn)
Title: Re: The Economic Fallout of Alienating Customers
Post by: David in MN on January 25, 2019, 07:11:40 PM
Honestly, even though I lean waaaay left of most of the folks here on this forum, even I was cringing at this ad. Like yeah, I support reducing bullying and holding men accountable for their actions, but at the end of the day you really just want me to buy more razors. How are those two things connected, exactly?

It really smacks of older executives trying to bring back the "youths" to their brand with some trendy topic they heard about on Twitter, or maybe read a couple of articles on HuffPo, without fully investing in and understanding the cause and coming off as shallow and insensitive to the actual (legitimate, IMO) issues involved.

If you don't mind me asking did the portrayal of women seem offensive? That really ground my gears. I really don't like that they portrayed women as damsels in distress waiting for a man to save them. That was bothersome. Of course if some guy was assaulting a woman I'd knock the snot out of him but I grew up with a mother who has an MBA and married a woman I met in engineering school. I can assure both are capable of a a royal "f*ck off".  Real men love strong women. I strive to be Justinian to my wife's Theodora.
Title: Re: The Economic Fallout of Alienating Customers
Post by: AvenueQ on January 25, 2019, 07:43:10 PM
If you don't mind me asking did the portrayal of women seem offensive? That really ground my gears. I really don't like that they portrayed women as damsels in distress waiting for a man to save them. That was bothersome.

Honestly I don't remember, I could only be bothered to watch it once lol. I definitely don't like it when women are portrayed like that, but I think what they were (trying to) get at was more subtle: Women shouldn't need saving because men shouldn't act in a way that requires them to be saved (i.e. not catcalling random women and making them feel unsafe). The whole idea of "toxic masculinity" is basically the reverse of tomboyism, that is if it's socially acceptable for girls to act like boys, then it should also be socially acceptable for boys to act like girls (i.e. emotional and vulnerable. I'm really paraphrasing here). Being a "man" doesn't have to mean being a "hero," or having to "protect" people. It also means listening to and cooperating with other people, and being aware of other people's emotional states.

At least that's the gist of what I see my super liberal feminist friends talking about (I went to a liberal arts college, I have a lot of those). In principle I don't disagree with them, but in practice it's really hard not to come off preachy as hell, because it always ends up sounding like "hey men, you should just be decent human beings," and then the (predictable) response is "#NOTALLMEN YOU LIBTARDS".
Title: Re: The Economic Fallout of Alienating Customers
Post by: Smurf Hunter on January 26, 2019, 12:14:14 AM
Pardon my digression, but I recently had a conservation with a trans-man in my office.  "He" was explaining how it can be damaging to raise children with gender roles.  It was a civil discussion, but at the end I saw the paradox.  If gender is a construct, why is it so important for you to identify as a Male and have coworkers treat you the same?

I may not live to find the answer...

I'm totally fine with men doing feminine things and vice versa. "Fine" in that it's not my business. I feel better knowing my wife can change a tire, unload a gun and file our taxes.  Somehow I'm still in charge of dealing with spiders in the house and investigating strange noises st night.
Title: Re: The Economic Fallout of Alienating Customers
Post by: Redman on January 26, 2019, 03:04:20 AM
I can't even be bothered to watch the ad that's driving this discussion.  Now this is an ad for something I can get onboard with: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzC47F1DTO8&frags=pl%2Cwn (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzC47F1DTO8&frags=pl%2Cwn)

^^^This. I haven't seen nor wanted to see the ad behind the discussion. Now the ad AG posted  :happydance:. Former user of that product because it worked for me and much less expensive. it is not a P&G product BTW. Using soap and a brush now, even less expensive. Isn't that what folks should be about, product that works well and the least cost.
Title: Re: The Economic Fallout of Alienating Customers
Post by: FreeLancer on January 26, 2019, 04:20:51 AM
Isn't that what folks should be about, product that works well and the least cost.

Yep.

Would anyone secure in their masculinity give a rat's ass about advertising? 

(https://i0.wp.com/www.shadolsonshow.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Gillette-babes-11.jpg?fit=768%2C1024)

#BroFlakes
Title: Re: The Economic Fallout of Alienating Customers
Post by: Redman on January 26, 2019, 05:07:31 AM
Yep.

Would anyone secure in their masculinity give a rat's ass about advertising? 

(https://i0.wp.com/www.shadolsonshow.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Gillette-babes-11.jpg?fit=768%2C1024)

#BroFlakes

Depends on the rat's ass.  :rofl:
Title: Re: The Economic Fallout of Alienating Customers
Post by: David in MN on February 04, 2019, 02:36:24 PM
Bud Light is the latest.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/bud-light-super-bowl-commercial-093322528.html

Ummm... lots of brewers use corn sugar because it ferments almost 100% and has low off flavors. We all know Miller and Coors use corn and Budweiser uses rice. But Budweiser is brewed in the heart of corn country. Their consumers must involve in corn production.

I don't understand this marketing wave of crapping on core customers. Bud Light isn't looking to win at the trendy cocktail bar. Why try to win where it doesn't matter and your facts are deceitful?
Title: Re: The Economic Fallout of Alienating Customers
Post by: AvenueQ on February 04, 2019, 07:07:57 PM
Why try to win where it doesn't matter and your facts are deceitful?

Because millennials are into "dunking" on stuff they don't like, so therefore it's a valid marketing strategy.

(not really, but that's what out-of-touch marketing people seem to think :wut: ).
Title: Re: The Economic Fallout of Alienating Customers
Post by: Smurf Hunter on February 05, 2019, 11:21:21 AM
Bud Light is the latest.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/bud-light-super-bowl-commercial-093322528.html

Ummm... lots of brewers use corn sugar because it ferments almost 100% and has low off flavors. We all know Miller and Coors use corn and Budweiser uses rice. But Budweiser is brewed in the heart of corn country. Their consumers must involve in corn production.

I don't understand this marketing wave of crapping on core customers. Bud Light isn't looking to win at the trendy cocktail bar. Why try to win where it doesn't matter and your facts are deceitful?

As a casual home brewer, most any book or instruction on bottling home brewed beer recommends "priming sugar" aka corn sugar.  It's a known reliable way to achieve the desired carbonation in bottles.

Budweiser should be more ashamed about using rice.  WTF?  Of all the goofy fermentables, they use rice?

Title: Re: The Economic Fallout of Alienating Customers
Post by: iam4liberty on February 08, 2019, 02:10:32 PM
Holy cow.  Talk about tackling a subject head on:

https://youtu.be/BwSvQwuPcR4 (https://youtu.be/BwSvQwuPcR4)
Title: Re: The Economic Fallout of Alienating Customers
Post by: iam4liberty on February 12, 2019, 07:22:59 PM
KABOOM!  Video game company Activision Blizzard is laying off ~800 SGA staff.  Blizzard has had a very contentious relationship with their customers flatlining revenue and missing financial growth targets. Stock value dropped 50%.  They essentially stopped innovating their products and instead pushed a political agenda.  Now they are slashing that staff and increasing developers 20% so as to jumpstart product line. 
Title: Re: The Economic Fallout of Alienating Customers
Post by: David in MN on February 13, 2019, 01:42:01 PM
KABOOM!  Video game company Activision Blizzard is laying off ~800 SGA staff.  Blizzard has had a very contentious relationship with their customers flatlining revenue and missing financial growth targets. Stock value dropped 50%.  They essentially stopped innovating their products and instead pushed a political agenda.  Now they are slashing that staff and increasing developers 20% so as to jumpstart product line.

In their latest Call of Duty multiplayer they eliminated the swastikas and had black SS soldiers. While many players shrugged it off plenty felt that the experience had been adversely effected. Reading between the lines it seems some of these questions were real debates in the development team. This seems odd. Going all the way back to Wolfenstein FPS games have done everything possible to make levels creepy and use very dark imagery. Sounds like they have really missed the mark.
Title: Re: The Economic Fallout of Alienating Customers
Post by: iam4liberty on February 13, 2019, 03:06:39 PM
In their latest Call of Duty multiplayer they eliminated the swastikas and had black SS soldiers. While many players shrugged it off plenty felt that the experience had been adversely effected. Reading between the lines it seems some of these questions were real debates in the development team. This seems odd. Going all the way back to Wolfenstein FPS games have done everything possible to make levels creepy and use very dark imagery. Sounds like they have really missed the mark.

They just announced they will have no major releases for 2019.  They are regrouping.  Imagine adding 10 million+ active customers in a year and having revenue not move.  Cash flow actually fell by $400 million.  They are learning that adding new customers at the expense of alienating existing high revenue, low expense base is not a path to growth.  So they are going to invest this year in refreshing their titles the way gamers want.  I am rooting for them to succeed.  Politics out, fun in.
Title: Re: The Economic Fallout of Alienating Customers
Post by: David in MN on March 11, 2019, 03:37:18 PM
A recent Econtalk podcast with LEGENDARY guest Mike Munger touched on this. The host, Russ Roberts, confessed that he drives a Ford in part because they didn't get the BS bailouts that Chevy and GM got. Gotta say that sits in the back of my head too. And I drive a Ford now.

They also touched on how the banks are so hated for their bailouts. The industry took a PR hit for being bad with money. And it is a fair question. Why did we bail out the lenders and not the homeowners?

Also raises a great economics question: Why do we tip a waiter while traveling? If I'm in Phoenix for one day surely it would be economically better to stiff the waitstaff. But only a jerk would do it.

While the show was about the necessity of rent-seeking and whether we've gone too far the point is the same. It's easy to tarnish public image.
Title: Re: The Economic Fallout of Alienating Customers
Post by: David in MN on April 08, 2019, 08:16:47 AM
Tim Pool on how Facebook has done itself in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0R81U0sRHU8

Title: Re: The Economic Fallout of Alienating Customers
Post by: David in MN on May 07, 2019, 08:25:59 AM
Feeling depressed? Maybe you should seek a qualified therapist. Or just go to Burger King.

https://www.vox.com/the-goods/2019/5/2/18527110/burger-king-unhappy-meals-steakumms-sad-brand-twitter

I guess sandwiches cure depression just like conversations while waiting for an iced macchiato will cure racism. As someone who has dealt with depression (and don't we all at some point) this feels like medically bad advertising.

And what kind of message is this really? Come to Burger King where you can shuffle through the door like all the other mentally shattered people in hopes a sandwich will cure your burdens?

There must be a marketing school preaching this nonsense. Why would Burger King want to make their restaurant less fun than the waiting room of an ER? I realize it's physically impossible to look like He-Man or Barbie but at least they look good. Now everybody walking into Burger King gets the mental patient stigma. Maybe I'm an upbeat happy dude who just loves a whopper now and again. The most disaffected dude in my generation still shot heroin and banged Courtney Love.

I don't know where this comes from. I'm waiting for McDonald's response of "the Big Mac tastes better than the window you've been licking." The only way to one up "Burger King, the place for depressives."

I'm half tempted to audit marketing courses. Jesus even anti-depressant medications know to advertise a happy lady skipping in a field of fresh flowers. These companies want their brands associated with rape and mental illness? I might be disgusted by prison rape but I'm not about to put a "think about prison rape" sticker on tables I sell.
Title: Re: The Economic Fallout of Alienating Customers
Post by: Smurf Hunter on May 07, 2019, 09:40:34 AM
Even when I try to be objective about things, it truly feels like there's an evil force that's determined for me to feel "wrong".

My workplace is very progressive and inclusive. Honestly I'm okay with 85% of it. I can be professional, and maintain composure through a lot. As long as my colleagues are thoughtful and accountable to their work, I really don't care about much else. Last year we had a trans-woman (that means the person was born male and no identifies as female) come to our office for a presentation on gender identity.  I did learn a lot about terminology used within that community. I also privately decided that if a biological female REALLY wants to dress like a male, use male pronouns, etc. I can do that if it matters so much. However when this guest speaker said that gender is fluid, and every day I should ask the person what their preferred pronouns were - I call bullshit.  It's one thing to have a preference, "I prefer you call me African American, not black".  But waking up every day, and grabbing random scrabble tiles to name the gender of the day is either mental illness, or a severe personality flaw.

I'm convinced it's a way to keep the cis/white/male on their toes, in a state of perpetual defense.
Title: Re: The Economic Fallout of Alienating Customers
Post by: iam4liberty on May 07, 2019, 10:39:31 AM
Just a quick update.  P&G grooming sales plummeted 8% vs previous year.  It was the only group with a sales decline in all of P&G.  Now analysts are questioning whether P&G should even stay in this category or sell off business and move on.

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2019/04/23/should-p-g-exit-the-shaving-business.html (https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2019/04/23/should-p-g-exit-the-shaving-business.html)

Should P&G exit the shaving business?

Procter & Gamble’s chief financial officer said April 23 the company remains committed to the Grooming division despite disappointing sales.
...
The Cincinnati-based maker of Gillette razors and Braun electric shavers (NYSE: PG) reported net sales of $1.4 billion for the Grooming business in the recently ended third quarter, down 8 percent from last year.
...
Organic sales for Grooming were down 1 percent in the quarter that ended in March. By comparison, Beauty’s organic sales were up 9 percent, Fabric & Home Care’s increased 7 percent, Health Care’s rose 5 percent and Baby, Feminine & Family Care’s were up 2 percent.
Title: Re: The Economic Fallout of Alienating Customers
Post by: David in MN on May 22, 2019, 09:05:15 AM
I've dealt with the cesspool that forms around middle management and HR before. To the point that my manager took me to a sit down with HR because I had a "violence problem" that turned out to be little more than a discussion of me taking boxing classes after work and an embarrassment for all involved. Long story short I got a new manager (from Trinidad) who loved boxing and she and I got along famously.

Those who have never worked a modern corporate job can't understand the Hell of "inclusive training". It's like 4 hours of boring powerpoints and stupido worksheets in order to not be a horrible prejudiced person. And then they force you to talk about "what you learned that day" to complete the Stalinist indoctrination. And there's no out. I could show pictures of me with my uncle and his husband but I still need to be "educated" on how to treat gay people. It is so insulting to anyone with even a hint of decency. There's also the feeling that I'm doing experimental research on dangerous industrial machinery and I need to take a few hours to be taught by a 400 pound purple haired girl with a gender studies degree from her safety school. HR has done the magnificent job of elevating those who can't make the world work.

And we live good or bad in the era where office politics and policies are becoming news. The tech companies are clearly burssting at the seams this way and it's bad publicity. I don't know why Jack Dorsey went on Joe Rogan's podcast to let Tim Pool castigate him but he did. It's becoming clear there is an issue.

But all this stuff is goofy internal crap. You'll never see a marketer release the internal "inclusive training" documents. It's offensive and insulting in its pedantic view of the average person. Just imagine how warped your mind must be to think that you have to tell people "rape is bad" or how demented you have to be to think that even the Nazis should have been an inclusive group welcoming black SS officers. Just imagine being so PC that you can't portray historical Nazis as racist. Why not make video games about Rommel's legendary Jewish Corps? It's so insulting to the consumer but these companies are falling over each other to make the most insulting pedantic humdrum adverts.

I own a business. It's a small woodwork operation. I have made everything from basic cutting boards to elaborate live edge tables. If you are my customer or even my prospective customer you are the smartest, kindest, best looking, wise beyond your years person and I want to deliver on your expectations with something that blows your mind. I might have things I care about but on delivery of a custom picture frame I'm not bringing up prison rape or the genocide in Yemen. It's not germain to the transaction. This is the thing I can't wrap my head around. Why associate your brand with any negativity? And in a nation wide branding spot? A businessperson's job is to MAKE MONEY. Not sell a distorted political view. This flies in the face of everything I know of business.
Title: Re: The Economic Fallout of Alienating Customers
Post by: David in MN on June 02, 2019, 09:38:58 AM
Disney and Netflix enter the fray. They're discussing not filming in states (Georgia) with contravertial abortion bans.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/30/business/disney-bob-iger-abortion-georgia/index.html

I don't know what the root cause is here because as a business you don't want to touch abortion with a 10 foot pole. Basically you pick one side or the other and you either want women enslaved or babies murdered. Bob Iger is way smarter than this. Especially with a company like Disney that caterss to young parents. And I'm pretty sure Netflix has filmed in Malaysia where it's still a crime to be gay so their moral compass only applies here?

It's a very strange hill to die on. I can't imagine that Star Wars will now involve a Rey abortion. The jokes write themselves but what idiot would make his children's movies and theme parks built on the cornerstone of abortion rights? The abortion people um don't have kids. And why do I need to have a Hollywood agreed upon abortion stance to enjoy Cinderella?

I can't understand why we're falling on our swords for political positions. I don't care what you believe if you make a good sandwich. And I'd be real careful if I ran a company founded by a notorious anti-Semite who made cartoons in the 30s that were a "touch" racist.
Title: Re: The Economic Fallout of Alienating Customers
Post by: Smurf Hunter on June 04, 2019, 09:39:06 AM
I've watched it, but haven't really followed the social response to the new Gillette "trans-boy" shaving ad. 
Like abortion, it feels like we have to publicly take a position and die for it. 

These are cheap, lazy and actually safe moves for corporate ad campaigns.  It's pride month, gay marriage is the law in all states, but that tooth paste ad featuring a same-sex couple is "stunning and brave".  If they did this 20 years back, there could be an argument.

Maybe I'm old school, but the right thing is the right thing, even if it's not also the popular thing at the time.
Title: Re: The Economic Fallout of Alienating Customers
Post by: iam4liberty on June 04, 2019, 11:05:31 AM
I've watched it, but haven't really followed the social response to the new Gillette "trans-boy" shaving ad. 

It was actually well received according to attitudinal data. The sales data isnt released yet but should be better than prior campaign.  They went with a much more aspirational approach than a degrading one.  That seems to be the lesson learned, inclusiveness should be about creating relevant, posive experiences for praoduct/brand in different peoples lives.  It shouldnt be about advancing one group's political  agenda over another (or in prior Gillette campaign, over everyone else).
Title: Re: The Economic Fallout of Alienating Customers
Post by: Greekman on July 25, 2019, 01:36:53 AM
AS bit of late posting but I think it worths, cos i have to offer a different perspective.

Gillette and the likes may loose a battle but they are winning the war on masculinity.

let me validate this.
I have a friend in a high position in a BIG clothing firm, gay coupled owned and very gay friendly, to the extend of sponsoring the gay parades.
When we discussed the subject matter he position was clear.
Big firms like his, WANT to feminize men cos then they spent as big as women. So they push
As you know women tend to spend more on ephemeral goods while men on more constant/durating value ones. (This is not gender profiling, this is statistics).
I guess this makes things more clear.

P&G may have screwed up in Gillette sales, but further down the road it will earn much more by its Shampoos
Title: Re: The Economic Fallout of Alienating Customers
Post by: The Professor on July 28, 2019, 09:44:16 AM
AS bit of late posting but I think it worths, cos i have to offer a different perspective.

Gillette and the likes may loose a battle but they are winning the war on masculinity.

. . .snip. . .

P&G may have screwed up in Gillette sales, but further down the road it will earn much more by its Shampoos

I believe it.  Imagine trying to sell "Axe" body spray in the 50's.  Or, man-buns in the 1940's.

Historically, it has been suggested that even in the most masculine of cultures, such as those of what we call The Vikings, the men kept themselves on a "beauty regimen" that surpassed those of women.  This is/was especially prevalent in the mid-to-upper socioeconomic classes.  We men are just as vain, if not more so, than women.

Now, if you don't mind, I'm late for my Mani and Pedi.

The Professor
Title: Re: The Economic Fallout of Alienating Customers
Post by: David in MN on September 06, 2019, 08:23:16 AM
And Cadbury joins the ranks of preaching to its customers.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/30/india/cadbury-unity-bar-india-scli-intl/index.html

Its "Unity Bar" has different colors of chocolate to [I guess] call out the different hues of human skin. For the India market. Did they leverage the vast and complex history of Indian cuisine to flavor it? Umm no. I guess their message is that diversity and inclusion are just a skin color thing and it's now racist to prefer dark/milk/white chocolate.

I've never thought I had some kind of racial bias because I prefer dark chocolate with a little bitter bite. I will fully admit I find milk chocolate bland and white chocolate is inedible. That's just my palate. But if you know people prefer one or the other why put all 3 in one bar?

At some point we need a sober discussion. If you're the person who needs a candy bar to prove you're not a racist scumbag maybe you need to walk the desert and have a good think about yourself. And I wonder about the person who chooses multicolor chocolate rather than the one he prefers. What does it say about a person that his candy needs a political message?
Title: Re: The Economic Fallout of Alienating Customers
Post by: Greekman on September 06, 2019, 09:32:45 AM
sorry but I feel Cadbury is right. there is something to be said as a racism determination device.
Which side are you biting (like) first? which side are you (o)ppressing with your filthy racists fingers?
Title: Re: The Economic Fallout of Alienating Customers
Post by: David in MN on September 06, 2019, 10:09:07 AM
sorry but I feel Cadbury is right. there is something to be said as a racism determination device.
Which side are you biting (like) first? which side are you (o)ppressing with your filthy racists fingers?

Oh too funny. Am I a racist for biting the dark end while only holding the white end? Have we created the candy bar I'm too nervous to actually eat? Do I run the risk of being racist if I don't like the flavor?

I do not understand the mentality that needs to call out racial awareness in a kids candy bar. My 4 year old has the mental maturity to accept all races and creeds and be polite to them.
Title: Re: The Economic Fallout of Alienating Customers
Post by: Greekman on September 07, 2019, 12:30:25 AM
me too..at times I think it is just marketing stints, coming from highly paid execs riding on the wave of political correctness and pseudo progressiveness.

at times I am toying with the idea of a plot to engineer a new style of society
Title: Re: The Economic Fallout of Alienating Customers
Post by: iam4liberty on September 11, 2019, 08:57:52 PM
This is totally crazy.  Seattle-based Wizards of the Coast, a Hasbro division, is in release season for its Magic the Gathering card  game.  They have a reputation for anti-American sentiment and have several staff members deeply involved in ANTIFA. 

But even the most numb to their antics were shocked today, 9/11, when staff started promoting this as card of the day:

(https://dotesports-media.nyc3.cdn.digitaloceanspaces.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/11111418/Trapped-in-the-Tower-ELD.jpg)

Title: Re: The Economic Fallout of Alienating Customers
Post by: iam4liberty on September 11, 2019, 09:54:43 PM
One of the pros tries to save the day with humor and the other pros pile on to help the narrative along that "surely it was just a mistake". Their livlihoods depend on tapping this out and they are doing pretty good on damage control.  But insiders know thiat releases are coordinated to the nth degree so no way this slipped through.  WoTC has gone silent probably hoping not to flame it further.

https://twitter.com/efropoker/status/1171866956317609985 (https://twitter.com/efropoker/status/1171866956317609985)
eric froehlich
@efropoker
Trying to figure out if I'm still living in reality after my wisdom teeth surgery, but there's just 0 chance that a card called Trapped in the Tower got scheduled to be previewed on 9/11, right?
Title: Re: The Economic Fallout of Alienating Customers
Post by: iam4liberty on September 14, 2019, 11:30:28 AM
And on the good news side of the coin.  Purdue teaching the young ones what inclusion and marketplace economics means.

https://www.jconline.com/story/news/2019/09/13/purdue-stands-chick-fil-a-despite-protests-faculty-student-body-president/2310772001/ (https://www.jconline.com/story/news/2019/09/13/purdue-stands-chick-fil-a-despite-protests-faculty-student-body-president/2310772001/)
Purdue stands by Chick-fil-A, despite protests from faculty, student body president

“While we respect and protect the rights of all to express their opinions at Purdue, this clarification is intended to reassure our students and others that this long-requested dining option will not be taken from them and to dispel any impression that Purdue would ever seriously consider such an action,” the statement from Purdue read.

“We would not be promoting choice and freedom by depriving thousands of people in our community of a choice they have long sought and are already taking advantage of in large numbers,” Purdue’s statement read. “And, we would not be practicing inclusion by excluding a completely legitimate business and its staff from our campus.”