The Survival Podcast Forum

Survivalism & Self Sufficiency Topics => Emergency Preparations => Topic started by: Mr. Bill on October 06, 2019, 05:20:56 PM

Title: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: Mr. Bill on October 06, 2019, 05:20:56 PM
Scenario: the results of the next Presidential election are close, and the apparently-losing side refuses to concede, claiming that fraud and/or hacking caused a false outcome.  Extremists on both sides (plus angry people who don't fit on the left-right political spectrum) start resorting to violence.  They are joined by normally-nonviolent people who believe the other side is attempting a coup.

Can we, as individuals, do any prepping for this possibility?

(This is a touchy subject, and I hope we can stick to the prepping topic, and not get into the politics of which side is right or wrong.  I'd especially like to hear from any of our non-US members who have lived through violent elections in other countries.)
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: archer on October 06, 2019, 08:26:15 PM
-increase your food storage
-store more gasoline/propane/etc for preparing food/generators/etc
-increase water storage..
-etc
normal preps i expect...
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: Knecht on October 07, 2019, 08:25:24 AM
Sorry, can't advice, our elections don't go that rough. Maybe next time they will.
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: DDJ on October 07, 2019, 10:47:00 AM
Based on current trend I see in protests
+1 on fuel
+1 increased food preps

I would also add plan on travel disruptions.  Highways bucked delay deliveries. 
Up your get home bag for a travel disruption add stuff to stay at work for an extra day.
     Identify additional alternative routes to and from home and work
Be more diligent about having fuel in the car (specifically if you have to take alternative routs or get stuck behind a protest.
Be more mindful of your Meds if you are on them think of no UPS for a week.

I would think that any sort of civil unrest would be in and around city and state buildings or complexes. the majority of us would not see much close to home.  In your story line I think planning for the roads to be shutdown will be the best propping you can do.  There is the possibilities that a real fighting between groups could start and at that point all bets are off as to how to prepare.  The good news is we have gotten to the point everyone hates everyone not like them so those will not be organized for some time.  With any luck by the time that organization comes about everyone will see what Presidential candidates never let on they know "They can not do anything without the other side wanting it as well" and it will all die down.

That is my 2cents it and $5.00 will get you a cup of coffee.
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: iam4liberty on October 07, 2019, 11:30:39 AM
I know the local and state heads of the three political parties here.  They are all level headed and will quell any such things here.  But for elections it definitely would be prudent to avoid any of the cities where political violence is now tolerated.  A planned bug out vacation may not be a bad idea if you live in such areas.
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: rustyknife on October 07, 2019, 05:59:59 PM
Try not to be traveling during the elections, but, if you must prepare three possible routes. Also, prepare your vehicle for possible long term delays. I was stuck on a mountain for 9 hrs waiting in traffic for the police to clear a bad accident, snow and ice, and was surprised how many people did not have any water or munchies. I also took a smoke tarp off my flatbed truck, dug into a snow bank, created a place for women and children to relieve themselves. The backed up traffic was about 10-12 miles and I was about in the middle. Have a cell phone charger with you, extra blankets and flash lights. Many ran out of fuel thinking they could refuel in the next town at the bottom of the mountain.  If your staying home have enough food and meds to go a week or so. Being in a store or mall with lots of other people may not be a good idea. 
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: Stwood on October 08, 2019, 08:49:38 AM
If you happen to be out and about then, make sure your GHB is with you and full.


Good thread  ;)
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: FreeLancer on October 08, 2019, 06:23:06 PM
It's hard to anticipate the potential ramifications of a widespread breakdown in national trust.  The lack of faith in the fair transfer of power poses an existential threat to the republic and a critical mass of the populace could take us down dark paths, where the perception of desperate times produces a will for desperate measures.

It doesn't necessarily have to be a direct threat of violence.  With sufficient motivation, critical infrastructure serving large swaths of the country can be efficiently sabotaged within a single state or municipality, even more so with that local government's cooperation.  Think ports, bottlenecks at bridges or mountain passes, communications, financial services, and power/fuel lines.  Disruptions in these areas amounts to an economic siege to attempt to force compliance from the rest of the nation.  It's worth considering what resources are at risk of being cut off by other states in protracted conflict and either stock up or find alternatives.  We've seen this before when fuel producing nations shut off the pipelines to consuming nations in the middle of winter.  As hard as it may be to fathom, we have to consider the prospect that states and large cities could leverage their resources and economies in order to sway a national outcome.

A big unknown is the potential for use of force by the federal government (regardless of which party controls it) against states that go down this path, as well the compliance by individual members of federal agencies in carrying out orders.  So, too, state and local governments' ability and will to support or suppress their own populations with national guard, police, or militia forces. 

Also, in this type of scenario, controlling the flow of information used to influence public sentiment will be paramount.  Foreign actors have already mounted cyber and psychological operations to influence the electoral process, so the motivation to do a better job in the future raises the temptation of over-correcting and throttling the internet and social media in ways that seriously impact the economy, to say nothing of free speech.  With so much of our gross national product dependent on the internet, the economy could take a huge hit.  How much economic pain the respective sides are willing to absorb in defense of their political beliefs is unknown. 

It's tempting to book an extended international vacation until things shake out but, with a US consumed by interregnal strife, the rest of the world may not be much better.
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: Mr. Bill on October 08, 2019, 08:31:31 PM
...Also, in this type of scenario, controlling the flow of information used to influence public sentiment will be paramount.  Foreign actors have already mounted cyber and psychological operations to influence the electoral process, so the motivation to do a better job in the future raises the temptation of over-correcting and throttling the internet and social media in ways that seriously impact the economy, to say nothing of free speech. ...

This issue has been on my mind.  It's become standard operating procedure in multiple countries to shut off telecommunications during periods of social unrest.  I'm not sure exactly what form that might take in the US, since we're so Internet-dependent, but merely shutting down Facebook, plus its Instagram and WhatsApp services, would have a huge impact on communications but a fairly small impact on commerce.  People would try to switch to alternatives, but the alternatives would probably crash under the unexpected load.

Ideally we'd all have several backup plans for staying in touch with friends and obtaining news.  Ham radio is great for the handful of people who own and can use the equipment, but I'm really interested in alternatives that use our existing smartphones and computers.  There's LOTS of work being done by rather tiny groups of people to create decentralized Internet networks, or even to avoid the Internet entirely and just use a mesh of WiFi-connected or Bluetooth-connected devices.  Maybe next year I'll make time to learn more about this.
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: David in MN on October 09, 2019, 07:26:57 AM
Why would the American government shut down the communications platforms it already controls? I don't really care what flavor of political bias I guarantee your 8 pm talk show will host "an ex-CIA paid contributor". Worth repeating that the head of the NSA can lie to congress under oath and the programmer who proved he was lying will be on the run for the rest of his life.

There are things that do scare me and most have to do with travel. Obviously don't go to a major city wearing anything that resembles supporting Republicans. In Minneapolis you will be pelted with rocks while the police laugh. As mom taught, keep the politics to yourself. She grew up in Chicago where police took off their badges to brutalize hippies. I know such abuses have been more common than I would like in cities like Chicago, LA, Milwaukee... you get the drift. That would be bad to get caught up in.

The only impactful events I have seen are both Black Lives Matter and Identity Evropa shutting down roads. I'm just picking on those 2 because they have locally done it and while I have no time for white pride racists it's really easy for Black Lives to lose support on things I would tend to agree with if they shut down a freeway. And that did happen.

Other than that it's common sense. Avoid groups. Avoid big public events that could turn. Once you are in a group of people who either believe we are under attack from rapist hordes of immigrants or the world is literally about to end (and that rhetoric is not a joke unfortunately) the biggest hurdle to violence is already gone.

That's my best guess based on what I've seen.
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: LvsChant on October 09, 2019, 11:04:11 AM
Since we still have a bit of time, there are many things we can do personally to secure our food, water, etc. stores in advance. Setting up redundancies for necessities (well water, power for the well in case of outage, propane options for cooking/grilling, woodstove heat/cooking, neighborhood watch program for security, bump up garden production and food storage)...

Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: Stwood on October 09, 2019, 11:16:05 AM
Since we still have a bit of time, there are many things we can do personally to secure our food, water, etc. stores in advance. Setting up redundancies for necessities (well water, power for the well in case of outage, propane options for cooking/grilling, woodstove heat/cooking, neighborhood watch program for security, bump up garden production and food storage)...

All good ideas. I'll add to that, gasoline for the generators
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: LvsChant on October 10, 2019, 08:16:51 AM
We're moving to a propane generator... and we'll be getting a 1000 gallon tank. We may not fill it, but it things start to look bad, we could fill it. Plus, we don't have to worry about rotating fuel and deterioration over time.
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: Stwood on October 10, 2019, 09:17:32 AM
I've thought about (probably should) converting our gen over. Kit is a hundred or so.
With two 500gal tanks it would make sense for us.
But as always, there's another project ahead of those ideas. Currently it's easier to roll it out of the shop and plug it in at the pole and fill with gas.
I need to be working on being able to get water from the well without elec.
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: sams on October 10, 2019, 09:56:39 AM
Sorry to year the USA might get an African post election celebration

A few advises from an African:

1- these things are rarely spontaneous, it is all about one party stocking riot supplies (food and water) and weapons (stones, slings, bottles gasoline), so keep an eye out for reports of that.
2- Factor in the possible tactics to be used by rioters: clashes with police, road cutting, destruction of infrastructure. depends a lot on who is planning this disturbance.

In short you want to stay put at home until the conflict reaches a political conclusion, which should take a few weeks max.
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: bigbear on October 10, 2019, 10:40:14 AM
Each region is different.  Even within a state, country, and city/town.  I'll echo knowing and avoiding the hot spots.

Build community and relationships now.  Like the old saying goes, "love covers a multitude of sins."  If you're known as the neighborhood soccer coach or piano teacher or soup kitchen volunteer, then you're "love" is not forget by the recipients.  Not sure who said it, but I'll throw out another quote, "They may not remember what you say, but they'll remember how you made them feel."  The trick is people these days can't separate feelings from thinking because, in general, their life is unstable to begin with (aha the powers of 'everything is relative').  Which is why must see the divine spark/intrinsic value in everyone we come across in life.

Financial interests will be preserved, so it will act as a stabilizing force as some point. 

Why would the American government shut down the communications platforms it already controls?

I was thinking more akin to how Apple just shut down an app that the HK protestors were using to share where HK police are (probably at the request of the HK police/gov't).  FB, IG, etc would be a broad circuit-breaker measure.  I would think it would take mass hysteria to do that.   

Sorry, can't advice, our elections don't go that rough. Maybe next time they will.

History shows ours peaceful transitions too.  And I fully expect they will be in 2020 as well.  But when the sitting POTUS makes "civil war" comments, it's tough to measure how long the fuse on the street is. 
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: DDJ on October 10, 2019, 11:04:27 AM
I would expect that once it is seen as  a threat/planning tool then internet will be shutdown.  They may even use that as a weapon a siege weapon at that.  Shutting down the internet in all forms to an area would be as effective at cutting moral and grinding the US to a halt as carpet bombing.  The likelihood that it would be used would depend on who has the power.  Again stock up on Food water medicines fuel and anything else that you might need to buy.  Being ready for a week or 2 of blackout is your best bug in plan. 
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: iam4liberty on October 18, 2019, 05:41:55 PM
I am quickly coming to the opinion that restraing people is an important capability.  Ziptie cuffs (not typical cable ties) are being used extensively to restrain rampagers until they can be picked up for mental evaluation.  Having a few on hand may be a pretty good idea.  Something like these Safariland Double Cuff Disposable Restraints:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41d9ezizq5L._AC_.jpg)
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: FreeLancer on October 18, 2019, 05:46:40 PM
What are the legal ramifications for civilians cuffing rampagers?
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: Stwood on October 18, 2019, 06:17:02 PM
Looks like a good idea. But I've got a bazillion big ties from my truck mechanic'in
days. If I have too....
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: iam4liberty on October 18, 2019, 07:38:56 PM
What are the legal ramifications for civilians cuffing rampagers?

In my state one will probably get a commendation.  Our militia laws are still in full effect, specifically:

(a) Any person may arrest any other person if:

(1) the other person committed a felony in his presence;

(2) a felony has been committed and he has probable cause to believe that the other person has committed that felony;  or

(3) a misdemeanor involving a breach of peace is being committed in his presence and the arrest is necessary to prevent the continuance of the breach of peace.

(b) A person making an arrest under this section shall, as soon as practical, notify a law enforcement officer and deliver custody of the person arrested to a law enforcement officer.

(c) The law enforcement officer may process the arrested person as if the officer had arrested him.  The officer who receives or processes a person arrested by another under this section is not liable for false arrest or false imprisonment.


Looks like a good idea. But I've got a bazillion big ties from my truck mechanic'in
days. If I have too....

Some duct tape over top would definitely make a good restraint. It prevents the various break techniques.
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: FreeLancer on October 18, 2019, 08:35:33 PM
Apparently California has similar citizen's arrest law, Penal Code 837, but it doesn't protect you from civil or criminal penalties if it's deemed a wrongful arrest. 

Are you going take video of the rampager to document their crimes (you know there will be at least one video of you "violating their civil rights" as you cuff them), or assume that your word against theirs will work to your advantage? 

Murderers, rapists, and terrorists seem pretty easy to justify, but I wouldn't have a lot of confidence in being scrutinized for arresting someone  for breach of peace. 
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: iam4liberty on October 18, 2019, 09:17:30 PM
Are you going take video of the rampager to document their crimes (you know there will be at least one video of you "violating their civil rights" as you cuff them), or assume that your word against theirs will work to your advantage? 

Murderers, rapists, and terrorists seem pretty easy to justify, but I wouldn't have a lot of confidence in being scrutinized for arresting someone  for breach of peace.

No, not needed. Indiana law is clear and gives citizens wide authority.  Our courts have ruled "A breach of the peace includes all violations of public peace, order or decorum. Census Fed. Credit Union v. Wann, 403 N.E.2d 348, 350 (Ind.Ct.App.1980). It is a violation or disturbance of the public tranquility or order and includes breaking or disturbing the public peace by any riotous, forceful, or unlawful proceedings."

Someone tried to argue against the law in 1996.  They were drunk and a person reached into their car, took keys from ignition.  The court threw the challenge out with strong words. 

Furthermore, ourvlaws explicitely acknowledge right to use force in severe cases  All that is needed is probable cause.

"A person other than a law enforcement officer is justified in using reasonable force against another person to effect an arrest or prevent the other person’s escape if a felony has been committed and there is probable cause to believe the other person committed that felony. However, such a person is not justified in using deadly force unless that force is justified under [IC 35-41-3-2]"

"IC 35-41-3-2 says “… A person is justified in using reasonable force against any other person to protect the person or a third person from what the person reasonably believes to be the imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person:

(1) is justified in using deadly force;  and

(2) does not have a duty to retreat;

if the person reasonably believes that that force is necessary to prevent serious bodily injury to the person or a third person or the commission of a forcible felony.  No person in this state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting the person or a third person by reasonable means necessary. ”

But the legal part is only half of it.  There is the cultural part.  We expect people to stand up and help keep the peace here.  No CLEO, prosecutor or judge in this area is going to support a rampager over a well known citizen.    That is key to maintaining a peaceful society.  It is about doing what is right and the law is viewed in the light which best enables that.

As a side note, who knew a shop like this existed?!  https://www.handcuffwarehouse.com/ (https://www.handcuffwarehouse.com/)
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: FreeLancer on October 18, 2019, 09:24:23 PM
And you have no sleazebag attorneys that will bleed you dry in civil court for wrongful arrest?
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: iam4liberty on October 18, 2019, 09:37:28 PM
And you have no sleazebag attorneys that will bleed you dry in civil court for wrongful arrest?

Not really.   The judges chop them into bits.  You need complicit judges to enable those types of people.  And the law shields against civil as well.
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: FreeLancer on October 19, 2019, 01:44:59 AM
With everyone already on the same page in your state, then, it sounds like there's a pretty low risk of having to deal with any rampagers in the first place.

But for the rest of us, how does one best go about coaxing rampagers into cuffs without risking being charged with unreasonable use of force? 
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: David in MN on October 19, 2019, 06:17:31 AM
Personally I wouldn't go near restraints. As a civilian I have a "duty to retreat" when possible so I use self defense as a last resort. Restraints have a "I'm using this to further engage you" kind of thing. Doesn't quite fit with the self defense narrative.

I have one set of Peerless handcuffs I use to practice picking (handcuffs being the #1 lock in the world and a pretty crappy one at that) but beyond that I can't see using them in any practical way.

I realize the laws are goofy in that I am justified in blowing some guy's head off with a .44 magnum if I feel threatened but if he turns and walks away I have to let him go. Laws vary and I would have a good grasp of my jurisdiction before I made self defense plans.
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: iam4liberty on October 19, 2019, 06:44:06 AM
History shows that during riots those who do the right thing to protect themselves and their communities come out ahead regardless of the legal consequences. 

(https://cdn0.thetruthaboutguns.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/rooftop-koreans.jpg)

The restraints aren't to keep them from walking away, they are to prevent them from killing, burning down buildings, beating others, etc. 

It seems crazy to let some ANTIFA thug beat the heck out of a little old lady and let him/her move on to another target because of fear of a civil lawsuit.  Even in France they understand the importance of citizens stepping up to take down rampagers.

https://www.france24.com/en/20190201-americans-who-thwarted-thalys-train-terror-attack-become-french-citizens (https://www.france24.com/en/20190201-americans-who-thwarted-thalys-train-terror-attack-become-french-citizens)
Americans who thwarted train terror attack become French citizens

As I said above, you don't go looking for these situations.  If you are in an area about to descend into chaos it is a reasonable idea to bug out.  But if that isn't possible to me personally the right thing to do is protect the Innocents from the aggressors using the minimum force possible.  To me restraining a person and handing them over to law enforcement is preferable to putting them six feet under.

It is worthwhile to note how in certain states ANTIFA doesn't show up to attack people after the president holds rallys there.  So there definitely is a state effect in play as to where incidents are likely to occur.
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: iam4liberty on October 19, 2019, 07:03:15 AM
Alternatively, you can use a chair and a milk crate:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/08/13/sydney-stabbing-one-woman-injured-knife-wielding-man-arrested/amp/ (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/08/13/sydney-stabbing-one-woman-injured-knife-wielding-man-arrested/amp/)
Sydney stabbing: One woman dead as three British men praised for restraining knife-wielding attacker

(https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/news/2019/08/13/TELEMMGLPICT000206326639_trans%2B%2Bm145K216fnIW9eXjLo07uTwe9Oyiw3C9dvwOUuinKek.jpeg)

But having handcuffs ready is a nice upgrade, in this case he could have shot him but restrained him instead:

https://www.theindychannel.com/news/local-news/bloomington-brothers-make-citizens-arrest (https://www.theindychannel.com/news/local-news/bloomington-brothers-make-citizens-arrest)

Bloomington brothers make citizen's arrest

BLOOMINGTON, Ind. -- A Bloomington man took the law into his own hands and made a citizen's arrest when he says a man was breaking into his garage.
...
The homeowner said the intruder was holding a flashlight, that he initially thought was a gun. The man tried to get away and the two started to fight.

"All of a sudden my brother comes running out of the front door, bare foot, jumps on the guy, puts him in a strangle hold, takes him to the ground," Kaericher said.

As he placed handcuffs on the man, the police arrived.
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: iam4liberty on October 19, 2019, 09:11:14 AM
Watch this video and please explain to me how it was wrong for these citizens of Los Angeles to stop and ziptie up this rampager.  Who knows how many lives would have been lost if he gained control of that bus and drove it through a school yard of kids as some believe he intended.

https://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2019/05/23/shirtless-man-goes-on-rock-throwing-rampage-targeting-buses-motorists/ (https://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2019/05/23/shirtless-man-goes-on-rock-throwing-rampage-targeting-buses-motorists/)
Shirtless Man Goes On Rock-Throwing Rampage Targeting Buses, Motorists
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: David in MN on October 19, 2019, 11:19:20 AM
I'm not arguing the value. I'm just wary of the possible legal ramifications that could arise. When you hold someone against their will you're in dangerous territory of false imprisonment or kidnapping.

That said, I'm a hobby lockpick so I have a box of padlocks and plenty of chain so...

It's a really dark last resort.
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: FreeLancer on October 19, 2019, 12:53:20 PM
A single bad guy is one thing, a violent mob is quite another. 
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: iam4liberty on October 19, 2019, 07:27:28 PM
A single bad guy is one thing, a violent mob is quite another.

With a large mob the best bet is to redirect them using barricades and, if necessary, suppressing fire.  Just like the battle for k-town. 

(https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/mini-14.jpg)

But the vast majority of rampaging will be by small groups of vandals.  Except in a few cities, the numbers of violence oriented protesters is small and will be easily handled.

In most areas, if the police need help they will just draw upon us citizens they know they can trust.  They have started doing this in portland despite the cries of 'no fair' from ANTIFA.

https://www.opb.org/news/article/portland-oregon-arrest-patriot-prayer-trump-free-speech/ (https://www.opb.org/news/article/portland-oregon-arrest-patriot-prayer-trump-free-speech/)
Man Confirms Officers Asked For Help Arresting Portland Protester

(https://images5.opb.org/c_limit%2Ch_730%2Cq_90%2Cw_940/news_20170604_police_homeland_security_protest_bvm-1925_kgwtdx.jpg)
Todd Kelsay, left, assisted federal law enforcement officers in restraining and handcuffing an antifa protester outside of a pro-Trump free speech rally in Portland on Sunday, June 4, 2017.
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: The Professor on October 23, 2019, 09:40:39 PM
This is something that's been increasingly on my mind, but I've not been sure how to post it, since we no longer have the TFHB, anymore.

I'm not taking sides on this, politically, but let me make a few personal observations:

Historically, it's been the Far Left that has been the most violent.  If the Republican Candidate wins, they'll lose their collective minds, again.  We've seen examples of rioting and general stupidity wherein they've destroyed even their own "holy places" (think Starbuck's).

Currently, I see two semi-realistic scenarioes arising from a political upset.

The First is if the Republican Candidate wins.  I expect widespread unrest (yes, even in Indiana, despite the law).  They run on emotion.  No laws are going to stop them, least of all a worry about some Red-Stater trying to zip-tie them.  Proof is in the recent spate of such disturbances.   While they whine and snivel and even curse out the police, they are quick to turn to the boys in blue when they feel they've been slighted.  They expect this protection, so no jackwagon wearing a red hat is going to intrude on their right to riot.  Logic goes right out the window in a riot and the anonymity of a wilding crowd.

The Second I expect is if the Left Candidate wins.  Same scenario, just on a smaller, more celebratory scale.  Despite all the chest-beating and promises to "take to the streets," the average conservative just is not a rioter.  A counter-protestor?  Maybe, some are. . .but as a general rioter?  I don't think so. 

However, even though I expect some level of unrest, I don't think it will necessarily be on a large enough scale to truly disrupt general lives.  Rioters typically don't riot in neighborhoods.  They tend to riot in business districts or in places where they'll be more easily seen/noticed.  Luckily, I live in a rural area so even if all the people "surrounding" me is a Far-Lefter, I'll maybe have a dozen protestors to deal with.  Furthermore, I don't expect it to last more than one or two nights.  If it does last longer than that, and if it's the Far Left who's doing it, then I think it will revert back to cowardly attacks similar to those that the Left perpetrated in the late 60's and early 70's.

The real problem comes when I go into town for business.  FWIW, we've been updating our Get Home Bags and making sure they're in each of our vehicles when we leave the house.  The ability to egress or bunker in place (away from  home) until the threat passes becomes vital.

My biggest fear is if I/we do get caught up in a major riot or unrest while away from home.  I remember watching the LA riots as they pulled Reginald Denny from his truck. A year or so ago, there was a night time video shot from a balcony where people where throwing stuff at vehicles including metal road blocks.  Look at the Antifa riots where they were forcing cars one way or the other.  The wife and I have been working at how to unass the vehicles as a team and get to cover if the vehicles become inoperable or immobile.

And, yes, that equates to armed self-defense.  We've considered most everything including less-lethal methods such as OC/CS dispersal devices.

Our most likely course of action is that we'll take the entire election week off as vacation.  We live out in the country, so we could just stay home and encourage our friends to do so, as well.

The Professor
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: David in MN on October 24, 2019, 10:15:29 AM
There is something weird happening with police. From the disaster of Charlottesville where I am of the belief the police directed protestors into one another to ensure a melee happened to local issues where police locked doors while elderly women were assaulted in the street by protestors to Portland just having a "stand down" order where ANTIFA directs traffic and beats up old men something is going on.

I don't know if it's a political mess or what but it is alarming that police have ceded control to violent street gangs. These are gangs who have escalated from "glitter bombing" anti-gay politicians to throwing milkshakes to openly talking about putting concrete in the milkshake.

I actually believe the police are hamstrung by city governance which won't permit them to take back the cities but it has to catch in your craw that there are several instances of police letting this unlawful protest and even violent interactions continue unabated. To be fair I don't know what a couple cops could hope to effect in the face of violent mobs if they have no support from leadership and are out-muscled.

Even if there is some semblance of law and order you still are throwing the dice at best. Good old LA jury decided that hitting Reginald Denny with a brick was every bit the non-crime of cops beating a shackled Rodney King. King was recorded and Denny was assaulted on live TV but the juries decided that was the correct thing to do.

It's worth the perspective. If you unwittingly get gummed up in one of these events the police will not likely be able to protect you at best and might steer you into violence at worst and the courts may offer no redress. Do your best to "not be there".
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: Mr. Bill on October 24, 2019, 10:48:50 AM
Lots of useful ideas here.  But I think only FreeLancer really addressed the situation I'm worrying about:

Scenario: the results of the next Presidential election are close, and the apparently-losing side refuses to concede, claiming that fraud and/or hacking caused a false outcome.  Extremists on both sides (plus angry people who don't fit on the left-right political spectrum) start resorting to violence.  They are joined by normally-nonviolent people who believe the other side is attempting a coup. ...

I'm not talking about a few weeks of Antifa breaking windows and torching buildings (although that's a believable scenario).  I mean a situation where both the Democrats and the Republicans claim to have won the presidential election, and we're at serious risk of a literal civil war.

I'm not sure how this would be resolved via politics or the courts, or whether any such resolution would be negated by the actions of private citizens.  I do know that the Republicans have a lot more firearm-owning supporters than the Democrats do.  Things could get very messy for an extended period of time.
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: David in MN on October 24, 2019, 11:33:04 AM
Lots of useful ideas here.  But I think only FreeLancer really addressed the situation I'm worrying about:

I'm not talking about a few weeks of Antifa breaking windows and torching buildings (although that's a believable scenario).  I mean a situation where both the Democrats and the Republicans claim to have won the presidential election, and we're at serious risk of a literal civil war.

I'm not sure how this would be resolved via politics or the courts, or whether any such resolution would be negated by the actions of private citizens.  I do know that the Republicans have a lot more firearm-owning supporters than the Democrats do.  Things could get very messy for an extended period of time.

Well we went through that in Florida in 2000 and Hillary never conceded in 2016. For better or worse we have a couple months between elections and swearing in. Things usually work themselves out. There's a lot of shady stuff that can go on like the clearly fraudulent votes for MN senator Al Franken but for the most part it comes out in the wash.

There's a lot that could stir the pot though. Lots of claims of Russian agents (like Tulsi???) from the Clinton camp and let's be honest Ruth Bader Ginsberg is hanging on by a thread. It's not beyond the possibility that the DNC and RNC could lose control of their conventions and even the Libertarians are going tooth and nail as the Mises Caucus has their sights on Nick Sarwalk. Things are so shattered Obama won't endorse his own VP. It's an odd time.

But an all out war of all against all? I'd bet against it. I think getting caught in a downtown skirmish is more likely than a full blown civil war or even wholescale unrest. I'll admit we're in a dark place but pointing a gun at someone because they voted wrong just feels too far.
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: iam4liberty on October 24, 2019, 05:47:35 PM
However, even though I expect some level of unrest, I don't think it will necessarily be on a large enough scale to truly disrupt general lives.  Rioters typically don't riot in neighborhoods.  They tend to riot in business districts or in places where they'll be more easily seen/noticed.  Luckily, I live in a rural area so even if all the people "surrounding" me is a Far-Lefter, I'll maybe have a dozen protestors to deal with. 

Yes, this is likely. It will be concentrated in very limited areas. 

The First is if the Republican Candidate wins.  I expect widespread unrest (yes, even in Indiana, despite the law).  They run on emotion.  No laws are going to stop them, least of all a worry about some Red-Stater trying to zip-tie them.  Proof is in the recent spate of such disturbances.   

Only a very limited number of places in Indiana.  Even in Chicago-influenced Lake County (home of Gary Indiana) where 70% are democrats, only 58% voted for Clinton.  And it was a tie in St Joseph County where Mayor Pete is. So, you got those two and maybe a couple areas in Fort Wayne, Indianapolis, and some students in Bloomington.

There will be zero where I am. The number one employer is a coal-based aluminum plant that Obama forced closed but restarted because of Trump. The few remaining elected democrats actually support Trump. 

As an example, Trump had a rally near here.  For weeks the media pushed that there were going to be thousands of protesters, many who were going to riot.  The reality was there were 13,000 Trump supporters and under 150 anti-Trump protesters.  There were three incidents.  One anti -Trumper hit a MAGA hat wearer.  The MAGA hat wearer punched him back knocking him out.  The police arrested both then released them after they paid a small amount.  An ANTIFA type got in an argument with a cafe owner and pulled a knife on him. Three people reached for their guns and he dropped the knife and was picked up by a cop.  Another ANTIFA type slapped a woman and then ran away.  On the positive side, a protester lost his wallet which was found by a pro-Trumper.  The pro-Trumper turned it in to police who returned it to the owner.  The media appeared heartbroken by how quite it was.

There were a couple days of riot in Indianapolis in the mid 1990s in response to a police incident.  Primarily it was activists bussed in from St Louis and Chicago.  They allowed them to break windows for a couple nights.  But once it started to get beyond that it was shut down. 

Violent riots are just not embedded in the culture here.

I'm not sure how this would be resolved via politics or the courts, or whether any such resolution would be negated by the actions of private citizens.

Well, ultimately whoever convinces the Chief Justice to swear him/her in will probably come out on top. That is a pretty powerful tradition.  Cant imagine the majority not accepting that.
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: fritz_monroe on October 24, 2019, 07:23:34 PM
Lots of useful ideas here.  But I think only FreeLancer really addressed the situation I'm worrying about:

I'm not talking about a few weeks of Antifa breaking windows and torching buildings (although that's a believable scenario).  I mean a situation where both the Democrats and the Republicans claim to have won the presidential election, and we're at serious risk of a literal civil war.

I'm not sure how this would be resolved via politics or the courts, or whether any such resolution would be negated by the actions of private citizens.  I do know that the Republicans have a lot more firearm-owning supporters than the Democrats do.  Things could get very messy for an extended period of time.

This is my concern as well.  I know there's been states that have signed a pact to change their electoral votes to match the winner of the nationwide popular vote.  But in the past couple of years, there's been a full court press to try to get this into other states.  According to Washington Post, there's 12 states that have signed a pact.
Colorado signs on to popular-vote effort ahead of 2020 presidential election (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/03/16/another-state-signs-popular-vote-bill-that-could-decide-presidential-election/)

My worry is something similar to 2016 happens.  The Republican nomination wins the electoral vote, but the Democrat wins the popular vote.  The states that have signed this pact put it in to action and change their electoral votes to give the election to the Democrat nomination.  Democrats claim the win.  The Republicans claim that this is not legal.  Both sides see themselves as the winner and the opposing side has stolen the election.
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: The Professor on October 25, 2019, 03:59:45 PM
Yes, this is likely. It will be concentrated in very limited areas. 

Only a very limited number of places in Indiana.  Even in Chicago-influenced Lake County (home of Gary Indiana) where 70% are democrats, only 58% voted for Clinton.  And it was a tie in St Joseph County where Mayor Pete is. So, you got those two and maybe a couple areas in Fort Wayne, Indianapolis, and some students in Bloomington.

There will be zero where I am. The number one employer is a coal-based aluminum plant that Obama forced closed but restarted because of Trump. The few remaining elected democrats actually support Trump. 

As an example, Trump had a rally near here.  For weeks the media pushed that there were going to be thousands of protesters, many who were going to riot.  The reality was there were 13,000 Trump supporters and under 150 anti-Trump protesters.  There were three incidents.  One anti -Trumper hit a MAGA hat wearer.  The MAGA hat wearer punched him back knocking him out.  The police arrested both then released them after they paid a small amount.  An ANTIFA type got in an argument with a cafe owner and pulled a knife on him. Three people reached for their guns and he dropped the knife and was picked up by a cop.  Another ANTIFA type slapped a woman and then ran away.  On the positive side, a protester lost his wallet which was found by a pro-Trumper.  The pro-Trumper turned it in to police who returned it to the owner.  The media appeared heartbroken by how quite it was.

There were a couple days of riot in Indianapolis in the mid 1990s in response to a police incident.  Primarily it was activists bussed in from St Louis and Chicago.  They allowed them to break windows for a couple nights.  But once it started to get beyond that it was shut down. 

Violent riots are just not embedded in the culture here.

Well, ultimately whoever convinces the Chief Justice to swear him/her in will probably come out on top. That is a pretty powerful tradition.  Cant imagine the majority not accepting that.

I am very familiar in the area of which you speak. In fact, I once worked for Uncle Al while working on my undergrad degree nearby.

I might suggest that you reconsider your position of "it can't happen here."  While I would agree with you in general, I think there's going to be a lot of priming the pump, politically speaking, in the year preceding the election.

Take a close look at the largest town in the area of which you speak.  Almost 1 out of 4 (actually 23.3%) live in poverty. The town has a higher crime rate than 96% of the rest of the US and 98% of the rest of Indiana.

These are the exact people which will be pandered to by the Leftists.  They are falling all over themselves promising free stuff to everybody.  They will be expecting it, after all. . .they are ENTITLED to it.

I have no doubt that Trump's election numbers will be like they were in 2016.  The problem is, as others have pointed out, is that some won't wish to observe the legal definition of winning.  We have already had the Governor of Colorado say that he will "most likely" direct Colorado's Electoral candidates to side with the popular vote (note the caveat. . .I'd bet that he will claim he was just considering the idea if Trump wins the Popular Vote).  I also promise you that if it's close, every freaking news channel (with the possible exception of FOX) will be screaming for blood and how the dreams and lives of millions of poor and dependents were ripped from their hands by the crooked, evil conservatives.   They will make those poor feel that they've had their promised welfare hikes, their free cell phone, their free food, their free homes, and everything else stolen from them.

That town of which you speak recently held a vote of it's own police officers that show a ridiculously large number of them have no confidence in their own Police Chief.  With the number of meth busts, the number of murders, rapes, etc. climbing while the number of fielded officers drops. . .it's no wonder.

That river city is a powder keg and the Leftists are running around with fists full of strike-anywhere matches in one hand and a can of gasoline in the other.  I would still expect something to happen if the Conservative win and the riots happen elsewhere.  The squeaky wheel does, indeed, get the oil.

And, while the result may not be as spectacular as, say, Chicago, East St. Louis, Nashville, etc. . .if you're caught in a crowd of 150 pissed off liberal free-everything promisees. . .

Well, it may not be the best day you've ever had.

The Professor

PS- Oh, don't forget that the kids nowadays have been conditioned to flashmob for any reason whatsoever.  So, maybe protests are out, but if you're in the Drugstore they attack, will the results not be the same?   After all, they've been taught that Trump will take away their free ride future, their free healthcare (and subsequently their lives), their environment and their world (what, in 12 years?). 
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: iam4liberty on October 25, 2019, 06:08:01 PM
I am very familiar in the area of which you speak. In fact, I once worked for Uncle Al while working on my undergrad degree nearby.
...
Take a close look at the largest town in the area of which you speak.  Almost 1 out of 4 (actually 23.3%) live in poverty. The town has a higher crime rate than 96% of the rest of the US and 98% of the rest of Indiana.

You are correct by 'town' but that is definitely not representative of the area. If you look at the poverty rate for the area it is 15.4% and this is not adjusted by cost-of-living.  Adjusted by COL it is well below national average. The unemployment rate is 3.1%.  The crime rate quoted is similarly skewed, with the city-center level driven by drug crime due to the creation of the I-69 meth corridor. 

If you are interested, you might want to check out the Mayoral debate from yesterday.  A friend of mine is running (I will let you guess at which one).  For the first time in the city's history there is no Democrat candidate.   

Where I specifically am located was named one of the 10 best places to live in Indiana and the number one place in the state to retire.  Our sheriff and police chief have everything well in hand.  It is a completely different force than the one you mention (which, again, is fighting the drug corridor issue).

I have no fear of liberals.  I am equally as comfortable in a room full of liberals as conservatives.  Even if 150 of them prone to violence could be gathered (highly unlikely), I am someone who didn't vote for Trump and doesn't support him so there is no reason for them to target me. 

That said, it is a wise idea not to be in any city-center on election night.  But I am definitely not going to lose sleep that a mob will spontaneously spring up in my town and start rampaging.  It isn't realistically going to happen.
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: iam4liberty on October 26, 2019, 01:14:20 PM
The Count Love Project at Boston University has some very interesting data.  They have been monitoring protests over the last decade using verified media reports.  They have made maps showing the types of protests by area as well as overall trends. The below map is particularly pertinent.  It shows the population of the states (size of circle) by concentration of protesters (color).  Obviously, DC is off the chart.  But there is a wide variety across the other states.

(http://www.bu.edu/files/2017/10/image7-cartogram.png)

Another interesting chart is the comparison of urban vs. rural.  What they found is that while the levels of protests may vary, the topics driving protest when they happen are very similar.  So there is consistency in concerns if not in actions.

(http://www.bu.edu/files/2017/10/image6-rural-urban.png)

Here is an interesting time lapse video of various protests.  There are definitely some consistent areas across all types of issues (i.e. a culture of protest).  These are obviously the areas most susceptible to future outbreaks.  It may be worthwhile to see what has occurred in your area. There have been none in my area and only a very small one in the largest nearby city.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEK8ty5goxI&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEK8ty5goxI&feature=youtu.be)

Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: The Professor on October 27, 2019, 01:32:05 PM

My biggest fear is if I/we do get caught up in a major riot or unrest while away from home.  I remember watching the LA riots as they pulled Reginald Denny from his truck. A year or so ago, there was a night time video shot from a balcony where people where throwing stuff at vehicles including metal road blocks.  Look at the Antifa riots where they were forcing cars one way or the other.  The wife and I have been working at how to unass the vehicles as a team and get to cover if the vehicles become inoperable or immobile.

Here is the link to the riot/unrest video of which I earlier spoke:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4mQg0qVBng (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4mQg0qVBng)

The background of this appears to be a post-soccer game fan riot.  However, it shows what I fear. . .unrest even with a smaller crowd base. . .not hundreds, but scores.

Of particular note is the 0:20 - 0:45 timeframe.  The antagonists actually attempt to gain entry into a vehicle with limited success.

All this, supposedly, over a mere soccer game. 

The Professor
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: Stwood on October 27, 2019, 03:44:21 PM
I'd be popping bullets into their heads while they were trying to gain entry to my car.
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: iam4liberty on October 27, 2019, 03:55:35 PM
I'd be popping bullets into their heads while they were trying to gain entry to my car.

Next year I am hoping to on takie an evasive driving course.  i planned to do it this year but had to cancel to cover a meeting for a colleague.  It is ingrained in us not to break the road lines, run over people, etc. Stopping in the middle of a riot is a good example of living on auto pilot putting one in danger. 
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: David in MN on October 27, 2019, 04:40:37 PM
Next year I am hoping to on takie an evasive driving course.  i planned to do it this year but had to cancel to cover a meeting for a colleague.  It is ingrained in us not to break the road lines, run over people, etc. Stopping in the middle of a riot is a good example of living on auto pilot putting one in danger.

I took one and I was amazed how hard you can run a car. You train on a little sports car and then graduate to a Suburban. You are literally going 40 in reverse and realizing the road is an "option". It flies in your face when the teacher reminds you that your life is in danger and "fucking up the car" is a way out. If you have that big truck or SUV you "can" smash through the mall's front door. They will teach you to lay on the horn and jump a curb while the trainer is next to you screaming "my baby's dying". They are good classes if for no other reason they really shatter your normalcy bias. Hard part is that it only applies in that darkest of days. 99.99999999% you're better off obeying the limit and having plenty of space. But it did break me of my bias. In the right circumstance I will plow through a neighbor's fence and get the family to safety in the park.
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: cmxterra on October 29, 2019, 06:09:25 PM
If you have not completed you ammo fort, now would be the time. No matter who wins or loses you can expect more laws to be coming onto the books making it more difficult to procure food for your pew pew.
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: Morning Sunshine on October 29, 2019, 06:22:52 PM
If you have not completed you ammo fort, now would be the time. No matter who wins or loses you can expect more laws to be coming onto the books making it more difficult to procure food for your pew pew.

hey CMX - good to see you.  I am thinking it is time to invest in our firearms
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: Stwood on October 29, 2019, 06:33:09 PM
If you have not completed you ammo fort, now would be the time. No matter who wins or loses you can expect more laws to be coming onto the books making it more difficult to procure food for your pew pew.


 :rofl:
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: The Professor on October 29, 2019, 07:49:04 PM
If you have not completed you ammo fort, now would be the time. No matter who wins or loses you can expect more laws to be coming onto the books making it more difficult to procure food for your pew pew.

I'd suggest doing it soon.  Once the political rhetoric starts flying, especially with the liberals now not even worrying about hiding their confiscation/banning intentions, the panic will grow.  That means supplies will go down, prices will go up and opportunities will become fewer and far-between.

We've set a deadline of the new year.  We're sitting pretty good, right now, but we're filling the finals "gaps"  in the next two months.

After that?

The Professor
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: Stwood on October 29, 2019, 09:37:36 PM
I'll hafta refill my stock pile, after having that boating incident. Sheesh......
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: cmxterra on October 30, 2019, 06:37:00 AM
I'd suggest doing it soon.  Once the political rhetoric starts flying, especially with the liberals now not even worrying about hiding their confiscation/banning intentions, the panic will grow.  That means supplies will go down, prices will go up and opportunities will become fewer and far-between.

We've set a deadline of the new year.  We're sitting pretty good, right now, but we're filling the finals "gaps"  in the next two months.

After that?

The Professor

Do you have reloading supplies?
Something else to think about.
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: David in MN on October 30, 2019, 09:24:41 AM
The political talk is totally off the rails. Julian Castro (I can't make this up) said that he wants to preserve abortion rights for trans women.

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/06/27/julian-castro-debate-abortion-1385950

We live in a land where we need to protect abortion for those with a Y chromosome which feels like a head scratcher.

But the cool thing is that nothing is insane or off the table. So if you need a full auto deck mounted boat gun to defend yourself against invisible space aliens well that's about as logical as giving men abortions.

In another wonderful Democratic town hall we were told that mispronouncing a trans woman's name is "violence". Can't make this up either.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2019/oct/11/nia-malika-henderson-scolded-for-violence-after-mi/

So to be fair I have my space pirate deck gun and mispronouncing my family names is violence so I'm going to rack the cannon and let you work with Dziedzic and Przybilkski. I'm going to respond to your violence when you don't get the right Northern German pronounciation of Tamburich.
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: Mr. Bill on October 30, 2019, 02:51:19 PM
Much of the discussion in this thread has been about left-wing violence.  Trump wins re-election, and Antifa blocks a freeway and torches a Starbucks to support the right of uterus-free persons to obtain government-funded abortions, and then in a week they all go home and post angry memes on Facebook for the next 4 years.

Which side has more weapons?  Which side has organized groups of trained people who could form armed militias within a few days?

Scenario: Trump loses re-election according to the official results, but claims it's due to fraud and that he actually won.

What happens when Trump demands that his supporters defend his Presidency?  When he asks the same of his supporters in Congress, two dozen of them perform an act of civil disobedence, disrupting an impeachment hearing and illegally bringing cellphones into a Sensitive Compartmented Information Facility.  I'm not asking whether y'all think this was justified.  My point is that some of Trump's supporters will violate the law in his defense, if they're convinced the Democrats are attempting a "coup".  So we should also be preparing for possible right-wing violence, and this could be greatly different in character than the Antifa vs Alt-Right skirmishes we've seen.
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: Stwood on October 30, 2019, 02:56:21 PM
Another scenero from Bill. Thanks
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: FreeLancer on October 30, 2019, 06:45:46 PM
Much of the discussion in this thread has been about left-wing violence.  Trump wins re-election, and Antifa blocks a freeway and torches a Starbucks to support the right of uterus-free persons to obtain government-funded abortions, and then in a week they all go home and post angry memes on Facebook for the next 4 years.

Which side has more weapons?  Which side has organized groups of trained people who could form armed militias within a few days?

Scenario: Trump loses re-election according to the official results, but claims it's due to fraud and that he actually won.

What happens when Trump demands that his supporters defend his Presidency?  When he asks the same of his supporters in Congress, two dozen of them perform an act of civil disobedence, disrupting an impeachment hearing and illegally bringing cellphones into a Sensitive Compartmented Information Facility.  I'm not asking whether y'all think this was justified.  My point is that some of Trump's supporters will violate the law in his defense, if they're convinced the Democrats are attempting a "coup".  So we should also be preparing for possible right-wing violence, and this could be greatly different in character than the Antifa vs Alt-Right skirmishes we've seen.


And here be dragons.....
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: Mr. Bill on October 30, 2019, 08:09:08 PM
Again, I'm really hoping to keep this focused on prepping and not politics.  The scenario is (I think) worth considering, regardless of whether you'd be sympathetic to the hypothetical right-wing militia.  (And also, they might not be sympathetic to you, if you don't meet their idea of "patriot".)

And here be dragons.....

Yeah, it's a huge unknown -- nothing similar has happened in this country in living memory, AFAIK.
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: cmxterra on October 31, 2019, 08:52:15 AM
I have noticed that the violence the liberal left inflicts is on a sliding scale from blocking streets, rioting and bike locks to the forehead.

However the conservative right seems to be more of an on/off switch. It will be a bad day when that switch gets flipped.
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: David in MN on October 31, 2019, 09:30:12 AM
Conservative politics is a civil war dumpster fire right now. It's the trendy thing to crap on Meghan McCain and Mitt Romney. The "nice guy" leaders are done. Bill Kristol will not hold the reigns again.

That said, if there is one group with a legit bone to pick... Just have a chat with dad about wading through rice paddies full of snakes while Jane Fonda smoked grass with the enemy and his tax dollar went to fund tenured professors who were from the Weather Underground and Baader Meinhoff Komplex.

You're going to tell a normal conservative that you will impeach his president over an offhand phone comment when the last guy used the IRS to target him and shipped guns to drug cartels with no issue?

As a guy who came from the right and still has a lot of family there something has changed. It's not flag waving Ron Reagan stuff anymore. It's a fight. Could it turn violent? Maybe. I hope not. Armed and motivated conservatives are a force. Didn't work out good for Hitler or Hirohito. Some angry corn farmers with experience on a gun have toppled empires.
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: iam4liberty on October 31, 2019, 09:58:46 AM
Rioting by its nature is primarily a cultural response.  People have to be psychologically disenfranchised and impotent to believe it is a good idea to burn down their own community.  For the left extremists this is currently the case in isolated places as discussed above (Portland, Berkeley, Minneapolis, Seattle, LA, etc)..  For the middle and right this is not the case.  So for any type of major violent response there would have to be really compelling evidence of voter fraud with high level individuals besides the president confirming it; Vice-President, Chief Justice, Joint Chiefs, etc. 

Even then, the right extremists wouldnt riot but would probably do targetted actions outside of their own communities.  Those sympathetic to the fraud charges would control the majority of land so they would likely have free movement. 

(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/XOhwW48KRAkxHx8zvh6XjE2LfcqXveTY1nfNTOhSJVSHwHruQBe2PeVDh5L4W03Ci74dt5SS7OwOK0bWnFOgzBOMMSAmvxmwuGaI-vQMxes3_fnR_hsVTuIrxKAp9RWXm5biDX4j)

They probably would choose to just cut off supply lines to those cities and let them destroy themselves.  For example, We probably would see the major West Coast ports, power grid and water lines severed in the first couple weeks.  Blockcades and ambushes on the roads would stop trucks from entering.  In short, they would be under seige.  As this happened the rest of the states would probably meet to overturn the fraudulent election. 

Chances of such a response are close to zero.  More likely, they would take a wait and see attitude. It wouldnt be until the left tried to implement policies like enforced firearm confiscations that they would respond by force.
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: nano. on October 31, 2019, 12:25:24 PM
Looking that that map, I have to call BS on Vermont... The eastern counties in the state are Republican, the western ones by NY border are Blue. This map shows all but Essex County being blue... nope, don't buy it...

Small state I know, we only have 500Kish people here...

But yeah, since first getting on TSP back when Jack was rolling in the Jetta, things have surely gone down the shitter as of late, eh?

;)
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: iam4liberty on October 31, 2019, 02:08:40 PM
Looking that that map, I have to call BS on Vermont... The eastern counties in the state are Republican, the western ones by NY border are Blue. This map shows all but Essex County being blue... nope, don't buy it...

What do you mean?  Those are the 2016 election results by county/parish. You can find county data here or on SOS site:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_United_States_presidential_election_in_Vermont (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_United_States_presidential_election_in_Vermont)

County   Clinton   Votes   Trump   Votes   Others   Votes   Total
Addison   59.0%   11,219   27.8%   5,297   13.2%   2,515   19,031
Bennington   54.9%   9,539   34.1%   5,925   11.0%   1,917   17,381
Caledonia   45.8%   6,445   39.3%   5,534   14.9%   2,095   14,074
Chittenden   65.7%   54,814   22.3%   18,601   12.0%   10,001   83,416
Essex   34.8%   1,019   51.5%   1,506   13.7%   400   2,925
Franklin   43.7%   9,351   40.9%   8,752   15.5%   3,308   21,411
Grand Isle   51.0%   2,094   36.2%   1,487   12.9%   528   4,109
Lamoille   56.7%   7,241   28.0%   3,570   15.3%   1,951   12,762
Orange   51.5%   7,541   34.2%   5,007   14.3%   2,101   14,649
Orleans   43.0%   5,185   42.8%   5,159   14.1%   1,702   12,046
Rutland   46.0%   13,635   42.1%   12,479   11.8%   3,501   29,615
Washington   59.8%   18,594   25.7%   7,993   14.5%   4,499   31,086
Windham   63.4%   14,340   24.1%   5,454   12.6%   2,840   22,634
Windsor   58.7%   17,556   28.8%   6,805   12.6%   3,767   28,128
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: scoop on October 31, 2019, 03:03:50 PM
IMO, it would have to get a whole lot worse for anyone who's not a liberal/progressive/socialist/anarchist to go out in the streets and bust some heads.
And my advise to those who want to do something about this kangaroo court currently in session I have this to say;
"Never interfere with an enemy in the process of destroying themselves".
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: David in MN on November 01, 2019, 11:05:53 AM
I guess we're pretty lucky that conservatives spend their time at church and raising families. As I've thought this over the past couple days the specter of 63 million Tim McVeighs is a little unsettling. We'd be in the dark ages.

There is something to the fact that conservatives refrain from retaliating against routine liberal rioting and unrest. I doubt dad would show up to a fight with a milkshake. It'd be more like a .308.

And maybe the really scary thought about right wingers is the skill set breakdown. We're going into a civil war where one side has the veterans, engineers, and tradesmen and the other side has teachers and lawyers (painting with a broad brush here but the math bears it out)?

I guess I've never really thought about it because I'm a peaceful guy but I have the skill set to build an aircraft (done it) and I've seen a friend make dynamite in his kitchen (don't do that kids). If you pool up my conservative/libertarian friends it's a laundry list of trades, engineers, combat vets, and others who could make your day very bad. And we think a good day is spent at the gun range and having beers around a campfire. I've never thought of the mayhem one of those groups could do. It would be ugly.

I don't know why conservatives tend to be less willing to be violent but if you just assess on the ability to cause damage... Holy crap. You move from a downtown riot to "the transfer station is on fire and the water main is cut". Ugly.
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: iam4liberty on November 04, 2019, 05:26:42 PM
Looks like we wont have to wait for after the election to see the flare ups.  Antifa has already morphed into a group of violent street thugs being used to target political rivals.

https://www.foxnews.com/media/antifa-attack-portland-sentenced-halloween-home (https://www.foxnews.com/media/antifa-attack-portland-sentenced-halloween-home)
Journalist attacked by Antifa describes Halloween incident at his home: 'It looked like something out of The Purge'

Prosecutors should be more vigilant in bringing charges against members of Antifa and push for prison time, said journalist Andy Ngo, describing a "terrifying" Halloween incident in which a group of men tried to force their way into his home.

Ngo discussed the case of an Antifa activist who was sentenced to six years in prison for cracking a man's skull open during a demonstration at which he was present in Portland, Oregon. He said the assailant's allies have gotten off easy and urged law enforcement to double their efforts.

"I wanted to point out this is only the second violent Antifa criminal across the United States to face actual prison time," he said Monday on "America's Newsroom."
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: FreeLancer on November 04, 2019, 11:04:15 PM
Interesting read about Andy Ngo:  https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/andy-ngo-right-wing-troll-antifa-877914/ (https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/andy-ngo-right-wing-troll-antifa-877914/)

(https://www.rollingstone.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/GettyImages-1152896318W.jpg?resize=900,600&w=1200)
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: iam4liberty on November 05, 2019, 06:30:19 AM
Interesting read about Andy Ngo:  https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/andy-ngo-right-wing-troll-antifa-877914/ (https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/andy-ngo-right-wing-troll-antifa-877914/)

(https://www.rollingstone.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/GettyImages-1152896318W.jpg?resize=900,600&w=1200)

LOL. I love these Rolling Stone hit pieces.  They skill and time they take in trying to wrap reality into a pretzel is a work of art.
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: David in MN on November 06, 2019, 03:22:05 PM
It's OK to try to kill a man because he spoke politely with unsavory folks? Hunter S Thompson rode with the Hell's Angels and Nellie Bly checked into a bad asylum. That's what journalists do. Max Kellerman and Joe Rogan will literally turn from one fighter to his opponent and treat each with respect and honesty. We have better civility in a boxing ring than the city streets of Portland.
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: iam4liberty on November 10, 2019, 12:08:41 PM
First time ANTIFA was ever mentioned in services today.  I hadnt yet heard about the church desecrations by ANTIFA groups this week. Not a good look.  So now discussions of beefing up security further against ANTIFA mobs have started all over the world.

https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2019-11-08/chilean-catholic-church-looted-by-vandals-as-protests-rage (https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2019-11-08/chilean-catholic-church-looted-by-vandals-as-protests-rage)
Church Looted by Vandals as Protests Rage in Chile's Capital
Hooded protesters in Chile have looted a church near the main gathering site of mass demonstrations against the government over inequality.


(https://www.usnews.com/dims4/USNEWS/1f8b720/2147483647/thumbnail/970x647/quality/85/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fcom-usnews-beam-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fbb%2F8d478a3930ba56ed51e5c99eaedf07%2Fmedia%3A75210721c219424dae6cae82a2bc8069Chile_Protests_14825.jpg)

Lots of local video and images on social media.
(https://image-media.gloria.tv/placidus/f/hf/3d4102lgjcfdv717a3nzds49gv717a3nzds4c.jpg)

Antifa profaniert katholische Kirchen in Chile
Es sieht so aus, als ob der Tabernakel geplündert worden wäre.

Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: Carver on November 11, 2019, 08:20:41 PM
Is my observation wrong that the aftermath of every civil disruption, or conflict has seen a weakening of our constitutional form of government? That is to say, a gravitation towards tyranny.
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: rustyknife on November 12, 2019, 12:09:12 PM
Is my observation wrong that the aftermath of every civil disruption, or conflict has seen a weakening of our constitutional form of government? That is to say, a gravitation towards tyranny.
Yes, I agree with you. A slippery greasy slide down hill.
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: fritz_monroe on November 12, 2019, 07:29:06 PM
Is my observation wrong that the aftermath of every civil disruption, or conflict has seen a weakening of our constitutional form of government? That is to say, a gravitation towards tyranny.
Nope, your observations are exactly right.  After all TPTB can never let a good crisis go to waste.
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: Gamer on November 14, 2019, 07:00:33 AM
Scenario: the results of the next Presidential election are close, and the apparently-losing side refuses to concede, claiming that fraud and/or hacking caused a false outcome.  Extremists on both sides (plus angry people who don't fit on the left-right political spectrum) start resorting to violence.  They are joined by normally-nonviolent people who believe the other side is attempting a coup.
Can we, as individuals, do any prepping for this possibility?

If law and order breaks down, then a man's gotta do....;)
Check out the film 'Panic in Year Zero' (1962) starring Ray Milland as a decent caring family man who switches into ruthless survival mode in the aftermath of a nuke attack in order to protect himself and his family, so he's a great role model for us all.
I watched it on youtube a while back but now it seems to have vanished apart from this trailer-

https://youtu.be/g0vMgIQVicQ

PS- in case the trailer vanishes too, here's a shot from a scene in the film where Milland tracks down two teenagers who messed with his daughter and catches them defenceless and unarmed. Will he kill them in cold blood or not? That'd be telling..;)

(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/Panic-year-zero1_zpsa5905927.jpg~original)

(SPOILER ALERT- If you're dying to know the answer, the fact is that yes, he blows them both away.)

Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: Mr. Bill on November 14, 2019, 01:06:51 PM
...a decent caring family man who switches into ruthless survival mode in the aftermath of a nuke attack in order to protect himself and his family, so he's a great role model for us all. ...

Yep, that's been a standard wet dream in survivalist fiction for a long time.  The good guys are always 100% good, the bad guys are always 100% bad, there's no question of mistaken identity, there's no question of whether the punishment is in proportion to the crime, so you don't need a trial, you just need a good guy with a rifle.

Antifa will be following this same great role model when they go out and start killing people they consider to be Nazis.  The alt-crazies have already been following it when they massacre "invaders".  If this is the way things are headed, we're in a lot of trouble.

Somewhat related topic: Do many preppers actually hope for an economic collapse? (http://thesurvivalpodcast.com/forum/index.php?topic=64246.0)
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: David in MN on November 14, 2019, 04:14:12 PM
Is there any solace in our recent experiences? Not that things are ideal but in both Charlottesville and the Bundy stuff as soon as one person is killed it seems everybody steps back with a "shit got real" moment. That does give me hope. Passions flare and people make poor decisions but when confronted with real mortality it seems even the most ardent back off. Not to diminish the horror of the loss of life but it seems like one death and we all realize our humanity. Kathy Griffen got shut down for her Robespierre look. Maybe there is a collective humanity has a better angel in our souls?
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: Morning Sunshine on November 14, 2019, 05:05:04 PM
Is there any solace in our recent experiences? Not that things are ideal but in both Charlottesville and the Bundy stuff as soon as one person is killed it seems everybody steps back with a "shit got real" moment. That does give me hope. Passions flare and people make poor decisions but when confronted with real mortality it seems even the most ardent back off. Not to diminish the horror of the loss of life but it seems like one death and we all realize our humanity. Kathy Griffen got shut down for her Robespierre look. Maybe there is a collective humanity has a better angel in our souls?

+1 for the Reign of Terror reference.  I love it when history is known
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: Gamer on November 15, 2019, 07:14:43 PM
Yep, that's been a standard wet dream in survivalist fiction for a long time.  The good guys are always 100% good, the bad guys are always 100% bad, there's no question of mistaken identity, there's no question of whether the punishment is in proportion to the crime, so you don't need a trial, you just need a good guy with a rifle.

WE are the good guys..:)
So if it hits the fan we can plug the bad guys with a clear conscience to protect ourselves and our families, no rules in a knife fight..;)

(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/pres-John-Adams_zps1qqqh4mk.jpg~original)

(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/tucker2_zps8nx415wg.jpg~original)


Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: David in MN on November 17, 2019, 09:54:06 AM
There is some magic here that gives me hope. We boast the peaceful transition of power. We didn't hang the loyalists after our revolution. We had Reconstruction in the South. We went from bombing to the Berlin Airlift in one generation. Despite our leadership that continually gets us embroiled in global conflict continually Americans have never had a stomach for excess violence. Our "Boston Massacre" left 5 dead. Not exactly like France, Russia, or Germany.

And everyone gets this 180 degrees wrong. This  is the land where 2 cowboys could meet in a field with Colt revolvers and Bowie knives  and walk away after a chat. There are households with more weaponry than their local police (include me here). Our safety is our collective distaste for what we know we are capable of.

I do worry this lesson is being lost, particularly in young leftists, but is still our heritage. We've never been a people who do what we're capable of. We "pick on someone our own size", "don't kick a man who is down", "don't punch below the belt". It gives me hope when I see a people who in the throws of combat hold their ethics.

Not a reason to not prep but maybe a reason to keep the candle of hope burning. These are trying times but this people defeated slavery and the Nazis. We've made mistakes but I think we can move forward.
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: iam4liberty on November 18, 2019, 01:50:55 PM
Number one hot spot, heed the words:

https://www.campusreform.org/?ID=14000 (https://www.campusreform.org/?ID=14000)
However, despite her experience, Kestecher, who is only in her first semester of college, says she’s willing to stay involved in politics: “The more that they push back on me the more I’m going to keep pushing forward.”
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: iam4liberty on November 24, 2019, 08:20:30 AM
Media refuses to cover it, but patience is gone with the blocking of traffic by ANTIFA and Extinction Rebellion.  Seen dozens of incidences like this in Poland and UK:

https://twitter.com/BasedPoland/status/1197894502758912005?s=19 (https://twitter.com/BasedPoland/status/1197894502758912005?s=19)

Lots of reports again of importing of baseball bats into these countries where people don't play baseball.
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: iam4liberty on December 05, 2019, 02:22:10 PM
Gotta love the BBC.

https://www.bbc.com/portuguese/amp/internacional-50593015 (https://www.bbc.com/portuguese/amp/internacional-50593015)
Americans preparing for an 'apocalypse' caused by political polarization
Title: Re: Prepping for widespread political violence associated with the election
Post by: FreeLancer on December 05, 2019, 02:31:10 PM
Portuguese?