The Survival Podcast Forum

Survivalism & Self Sufficiency Topics => COVID-19 Coronavirus Pandemic => Topic started by: surfivor on January 27, 2020, 05:09:47 PM

Title: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: surfivor on January 27, 2020, 05:09:47 PM
There of been numerous articles suggesting the virus came from a bio weapons lab but that it was accidentally released due to improper handling’s. That seems very common with these weapon labs and there are many of them all over the place. I also heard that all of the initial cases of this flu where from people that were nowhere near this supposed seafood market.

That’s all I heard, I am traveling and have limited time on my phone to study it


https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/did-china-steal-coronavirus-canada-and-weaponize-it

last year a mysterious shipment was caught smuggling Coronavirus from Canada. It was traced to Chinese agents working at a Canadian lab. Subsequent investigation by GreatGameIndia linked the agents to Chinese Biological Warfare Program from where the virus is suspected to have leaked causing the Wuhan Coronavirus outbreak.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: surfivor on January 27, 2020, 05:33:53 PM

https://hnewswire.com/israeli-biological-warfare-expert-connects-chinas-wuhan-virus-to-covert-biological-warfare-laboratory/



Israeli Biological Warfare Expert Connects China’s Wuhan Virus to Covert Biological Warfare Laboratory
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: surfivor on January 27, 2020, 05:42:56 PM


This article says SARS escaped from a lab previously

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.the-scientist.com/news-analysis/sars-escaped-beijing-lab-twice-50137/amp

SARS escaped Beijing lab twice

Laboratory safety at the Chinese Institute of Virology under close scrutiny
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: FreeLancer on January 28, 2020, 04:50:32 PM
It doesn't need to come from a lab.  The Chinese population's close proximity to the animals they eat acts as a 24/7 laboratory for passing genetic material between species.  Eventually the right combination, with the ability to spread person to person, comes along and we're off to the races again.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: rustyknife on January 28, 2020, 07:29:32 PM
Was thinking today about all the products we get from China, food and non-food items and how tough it would be to eliminate them......hurts my brain to think about it. :-\
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: surfivor on January 28, 2020, 08:36:07 PM
Bio weapons viruses are probably going to be much worse at making people sick and spreading than natural viruses. All of these labs that exist everywhere are a real problem that we shouldn’t have to deal with. They should not be allowed though they claim they need them for research
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: FreeLancer on January 29, 2020, 09:16:12 AM
WaPo:  Experts debunk fringe theory linking China’s coronavirus to weapons research (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2020/01/29/experts-debunk-fringe-theory-linking-chinas-coronavirus-weapons-research/)

Quote
Elsa Kania, a fellow at the Center for a New American Security, said that while Chinese officials had expressed public interest in the potential weaponization of biotechnology, a coronavirus would not be a useful weapon.

“Hypothetically, a bioweapon would be designed to be highly targeted in its effects, whereas since its outbreak the coronavirus is already on track to become widespread in China and worldwide,” she said.

Vipin Narang, a professor at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, wrote in a message on Twitter that a good bioweapon “in theory has high lethality but low, not [high], communicability” and that spreading such ideas would be “incredibly irresponsible.”


Quote
Late Tuesday, Hu Xijin, editor of the nationalistic Global Times newspaper, wrote that a conspiracy theory had emerged in China that the United States was responsible for the outbreak.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: surfivor on January 29, 2020, 10:13:08 AM
 These experts of all sorts claim many things like what medicine to take or man made climate change but it's not always easy to discern for certain what the truth is and many of them clearly are biased based in their connections and profession. How can one tell for sure if something is a bioweapon or not or came from such a lab ?

 That article by the way you can't read without a wj subscription ..

I don't agree that a bioweapon would necessarily have to be targeted. It's also true that quarantine and martial law type situations would effect the general populace which could be the worst thing about it rather than the disease itself. Mega rich and powerful elites no doubt would not suffer from quarantine situations the way your average person would and it would give them excuses to destroy freedom etc

 A lab may also have various dangerous viruses that they have been modifying and then they get out by accident.

 I find the whole bio engineering / bio weapons programs to be pretty scary and a threat to the world. These facilities do not at all appear to be safe from accidental releases and you can find evidence of that happening, lax safety procedures and worse.

 I recall when contaminated vaccine material was found in eastern Europe years ago that had originated from the US but these things never get covered by the media. It was contaminated with something like live bird flu virus

================

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-7922379/Chinas-lab-studying-SARS-Ebola-Wuhan-outbreaks-center.html

China built a lab to study SARS and Ebola in Wuhan - and US biosafety experts warned in 2017 that a virus could 'escape' the facility that's become key in fighting the outbreak

The Wuhan National Biosafety Laboratory is the only lab in China designated for studying dangerous pathogens like SARS and Ebola

Ahead of its January 2018 opening, biosafety experts and scientists from the US expressed concerns that a virus could escape the lab

In 2004, a SARS virus 'leaked' from a lab in Beijing

Experts say the coronavirus that's infected more than 800 people mutated in animals and became capable of infecting humans at the Wuhan seafood market

But a 2017 article warned of the unpredictability of lab animals that scientists at the Wuhan lab intended to inject with viruses


Scientists warned in 2017 that a SARS-like virus could escape a lab set up that year in Wuhan, China, to study some of the most dangerous pathogens in the world.

Now, a SARS-like coronavirus has infected more than 800 there, spread to at least 10 other countries and killed 25 in Wuhan and nearby provinces.

China installed the first of a planned five to seven biolabs designed for maximum safety in Wuhan in 2017, for the purpose of studying the most high-risk pathogens, including the Ebola and the SARS viruses.

Tim Trevan, a Maryland biosafety consultant, told Nature that year, when the lab was on the cusp of opening, that he worried that China's culture could make the institute unsafe because 'structures where everyone feels free to speak up and openness of information are important.' 


Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: FreeLancer on January 29, 2020, 11:11:10 AM
These experts of all sorts claim many things like what medicine to take or man made climate change but it's not always easy to discern for certain what the truth is and many of them clearly are biased based in their connections and profession. How can one tell for sure if something is a bioweapon or not or came from such a lab ?

Unfortunately, absolute certainty is a luxury humans don’t have when planning for complex future potentialities, despite how hard we try.  Some outcomes are more certain than others and more often than not we’re stuck doing the best we can with what we have.  Anyone can be wrong, and some will be more predictably wrong than others, but certainty is more of a journey than a destination.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: Mr. Bill on January 29, 2020, 02:29:57 PM
I figure, all other things being equal, the simplest explanation is most likely to be true.

In this case, all other things aren't equal: the new virus has already been genetically sequenced and shown to be almost identical to a bat coronavirus.  If that's true, it narrows down the possible culprits.

SIMPLE EXPLANATION: The virus passed from bats to humans, possibly via other animals, all of which are sold alive in a food market where cross-infection between animal and human species is easy.  By typical viral mutation, it developed the ability to pass from human to human, just as many other viruses have been shown to have done in the past.

LESS-SIMPLE EXPLANATION: The Wuhan National Biosafety Laboratory was studying bat coronavirus (confirmed to be true by Dr Richard Ebright in the Washington Post article that Freelancer linked), and it escaped from the laboratory into human hosts.  Not impossible, but it adds a step of unnecessary complication, because the virus was already present in bat populations outside the lab.

COMPLICATED EXPLANATION: The virus was created by genetic engineering, and released accidentally or intentionally.  In order for this to be true, hundreds of researchers in many different countries have to be lying about the genetic sequence of the new virus and its similarity to the bat coronavirus.  And somehow they are covering this up, even though all the data is available to anyone who wants to check.

INCREDIBLY COMPLICATED EXPLANATION: The virus was genetically engineered as a bioweapon.  In addition to the above coverup, now we also have to understand why it might have been chosen as a bioweapon.  For war purposes, you want a bioweapon with high lethality but low contagion, because you only want to kill The Enemy and not wipe out your own side.  The new coronavirus is just the opposite, so it's a rotten choice.  Alternatively, an evil global conspiracy might have engineered it as a depopulation weapon.  Again, this coronavirus is a bad choice because it's not nearly lethal enough.  So both bioweapon explanations require that the creators of the virus are brilliant enough to create it, but too stupid to pick the right virus.

ANOTHER INCREDIBLY COMPLICATED EXPLANATION: The virus was created in order to cause maximum disruption, and allow governments and elites to institute draconian controls and be a boot stomping on a human face forever.  But again, why create a virus that's no worse than a super-bad flu?  All you have to do is wait for the next terrible respiratory virus pandemic to arise naturally, like seems to happen every few years, and then you can do all the face-stomping you want and never risk taking the blame.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on January 29, 2020, 03:50:55 PM
The first two seem equally simple.  If there is a virus affecting bats which is being examined by scientists, it would just take a moment of distraction for one to become exposed and become patient zero.  in fact, such an accident is bound to happen.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: surfivor on January 29, 2020, 04:21:03 PM
I am skeptical that such highly contagious deadly viruses are very common in nature. Even the Spanish flu is difficult to ascertain exactly because there are reports that besides there being a virus overseas, many of the deaths came from vaccinated soldiers at bases and some claim the vaccines used at the time where deadly or they had too many injections. Just look at gulf war syndrome which appears to be a criminal cover up of the highest order as to what is the real cause. The best explanation for gulf war syndrome appears to be vaccines given to soldiers of the type that civilians don’t get

At any rate reliable stats and info on Spainish flu are lacking because it was so long ago and I found cases of researchers admitting that and the entire idea of a deadly flu pandemic seems to originate from that

They also never prove these things. There doesn’t seem to be a way to prove if a virus has been genetically modified that I am aware of.

It’s all just opinions by experts similar to man made climate change

They never proved how AIDS came from men hunting monkeys for food nor did they prove it didn’t come from monkey kidneys used in polio vaccines. They issued a claim but didn’t adequately explain or prove how they arrived at that. After that they no longer bother to study how it transmitted to humans. There attitude is it doesn’t matter
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: FreeLancer on January 29, 2020, 04:31:04 PM
Measles is super-highly contagious.  And it’s as natural as it gets and older than dirt.

Same with smallpox.

Nature’s a bitch.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: David in MN on January 29, 2020, 04:43:30 PM
I heard it was a CIA sting operation to neutralize the second hand clothing market to regain control from China. We're back in the schmatta business baby!

Seriously it could have come from a myriad of sources but it's far more important the environment in which it grows. Think this way: Suppose a horrible virus leaks in northern Montana. Not enough to keep it going. Wildly different from early 1900s tenements in NYC.

Plague and pestilence has been around since the dawn of time. We had "leper colonies" and African tribes would block the road to ward off travelers during outbreaks. We don't really know where the bubonic plague came from (likely not a secret black ops program) and we don't really know why it burned out. We do know that proximity to rats was a problem.

People like to go to the "patient zero" and there is value there but for me it's more the Petrie dish than the disease.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: Mr. Bill on January 29, 2020, 05:06:23 PM
It’s all just opinions by experts

A.K.A., science as explained by expert scientists who seem to know a whole lot about the topic.

But no, let's get our science from Alex Jones, who is an expert in all fields and completely unbiased, and it's just a coincidence that he's selling colloidal silver and also pushing its use against coronavirus.  Thank God he's not controlled by Big Pharma!
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: surfivor on January 29, 2020, 05:07:47 PM
I should have qualified it with deadly flu viruses which don’t seem common and can be hyped when in many cases it’s old people and people with weakened immune systems

Other than that, the causes of many diseases are often exaggerated to pathologens and not to poor sanitation, nutrition etc
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: surfivor on January 29, 2020, 05:14:05 PM

I don’t rely on alex jones exclusively. I have listened to numerous other sources and tend to cross check what jones says with various other sources. I tend to always check other sources with what he says.. How to identify fake news has never been adequately agreed on or established and is too subjective
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on January 29, 2020, 05:45:44 PM
It is wise to investigate all options.  Understanding origin will be helpful.

Lab idea is showing up in MSM now.

https://amp.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/jan/24/virus-hit-wuhan-has-two-laboratories-linked-chines/ (https://amp.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/jan/24/virus-hit-wuhan-has-two-laboratories-linked-chines/)
Virus-hit Wuhan has two laboratories linked to Chinese bio-warfare program
Virology institute there has China's only secure lab for studying deadly viruse


Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: FreeLancer on January 29, 2020, 06:03:50 PM
You think Washington Times would appreciate the MSM label?
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on January 29, 2020, 06:52:12 PM
You think Washington Times would appreciate the MSM label?

One of largest newspapers in DC.  And daily mail is third largest paper in UK.

What is your definition?
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: Mr. Bill on January 29, 2020, 08:04:33 PM
You think Washington Times would appreciate the MSM label?

Founded by Sun Myung Moon, still owned by the Unification Church, subsidized by Moon and/or his church to the tune of $1.7-$2 billion over its first 20 years, finally had its first profitable month ever in 2015.  It wouldn't exist except that Moon wanted a US mouthpiece for his political views and had accumulated enough billions to pay for it.

In contrast, the Washington Post is owned by a different billionaire.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: FreeLancer on January 29, 2020, 08:05:22 PM
One of largest newspapers in DC.  And daily mail is third largest paper in UK.

What is your definition?


It's not really up to me.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/about/ (https://www.washingtontimes.com/about/)

Quote
Established in 1982, The Washington Times has been a trusted counterweight to the mainstream media. Presidents, powerbrokers and world leaders rely on our coverage, but The Washington Times was founded to represent readers outside the Capital Beltway by promoting American values – freedom, faith and family – and to challenge a media establishment catering to coastal elites.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: surfivor on January 29, 2020, 08:34:53 PM
As I said, I should have clarified my statement with flu viruses but even considering other viruses; leprosy seems to spread much slower and is easily contained if so desired. Polio is a modern phenomenon and never had pandemics in ancient times or even 300 years ago or so. There are serious questions that polio is connected to DDT and other toxins. I don’t have the impression that measles could cause a Pandemic the way flu is hyped to do.

The only virus I know for sure that has such a reputation that I can think of seems to be smallpox but for some reason smallpox is no longer promoted as much of a threat but only flu. There is really only one case of flu pandemic in history however which is Spanish flu of 1918 but I have questions about that

Several other diseases seem linked to insects such as Lyme disease, malaria etc and can be avoided by avoiding certain areas in the tropics or avoiding tall grass etc but these are not contagious between people
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on January 29, 2020, 08:53:33 PM
https://www.livescience.com/amp/new-coronavirus-origin-bats.html (https://www.livescience.com/amp/new-coronavirus-origin-bats.html)
New coronavirus may have started in bats. But how did it hop to humans?

They found that all 10 of the genome sequences were extremely similar — they shared more than 99.98% of the same genetic sequence, the authors said. This suggests the virus made its "jump" to humans very recently, because if that jump had happened long ago, the virus sequences would have differed more, given the fast rate at which viruses tend to mutate and evolve.

"It is striking that the sequences of 2019-nCoV described here from different patients were almost identical," study co-lead author Weifeng Shi, a professor at the Key Laboratory of Etiology and Epidemiology of Emerging Infectious Diseases in Universities of Shandong Province, affiliated with Shandong First Medical University, said in a statement. "This finding suggests that 2019-nCoV originated from one source within a very short period and was detected relatively rapidly."
...
Based on these results, the authors said the 2019-nCoV likely originated in bats. However, no bats were sold at the Huanan seafood market, which suggests that another yet-to-be-identified animal acted as a steppingstone of sorts to transmit the virus to humans.


So, based on best science it originated in bats.  And it either went from bats directly to humans (one hop - simplest explanation) or went through one or more intermediate animals (two+ hops - second simplest explanation).   Given no bats at market, it seems reasonable to investigate both these options.

Please also remember this comes on heels of a rogue scientist breaking all ethics and laws to make designer babies in China.  So it definitely doesnt make sense to assume impossibility of lab source.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on January 29, 2020, 08:59:55 PM
All options must be investigated.

https://www.popsci.com/story/health/wuhan-coronavirus-china-wet-market-wild-animal/ (https://www.popsci.com/story/health/wuhan-coronavirus-china-wet-market-wild-animal/)
We’re still not sure where the Wuhan coronavirus really came from
China’s wet markets don’t tell the whole story.


As a new coronavirus spreads across the globe, scientists are working to understand where it came from. In the earliest days of the outbreak, the prevailing theory held that the virus came from a Chinese “wet market.” These marketplaces sell living animals along with meat and produce, and often feature creatures caught in the wild. But experts now say the Wuhan coronavirus’s true origin story is likely more complex, and are encouraging a broader search for the disease’s source.
...
Understanding a disease’s origin story is important, both because it helps epidemiologists track and prevent its spread and because a virus’s genetic makeup can inform the design of vaccines and treatments. The details of a contagion’s provenance can also help policymakers figure out how to prevent future outbreaks.

But researchers are a long way from knowing where 2019-nCoV really came from, said Nancy Messonier, director of the National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases, at a press briefing on Monday.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: FreeLancer on January 29, 2020, 09:09:55 PM
I don’t have the impression that measles could cause a Pandemic the way flu is hyped to do.

Because there's a highly effective vaccine for measles.


The only virus I know for sure that has such a reputation that I can think of seems to be smallpox but for some reason smallpox is no longer promoted as much of a threat but only flu.

Smallpox was eradicated after a massive global vaccination effort. 

We almost got there with measles.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: surfivor on January 29, 2020, 09:57:04 PM
Because there's a highly effective vaccine for measles.


Smallpox was eradicated after a massive global vaccination effort. 

We almost got there with measles.

It appears that fatality rates for most diseases where already dropping sharply before the vaccines came out. This is attributed to improved sanitation and health at that time. I am less sure about only smallpox but I had researched all that years ago. I seemed to recall that spirko along with numerous others agree with that analysis.

Other than that some old or sickly people are more susceptible to various diseases and they use that as justification for giving everyone else shots but that policy may be greatly flawed as well
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on January 29, 2020, 10:01:27 PM
Example from past, considered one of the worst lab accidents in history:

https://www.realclearscience.com/lists/worst_lab_accidents_in_history/marburg_virus_outbreak.html (https://www.realclearscience.com/lists/worst_lab_accidents_in_history/marburg_virus_outbreak.html)
The Marburg Virus Outbreak

In 1967, 31 workers at a laboratory in Marburg, Germany began suffering from an array of horrifying symptoms: fever, diarrhea, vomiting, and massive bleeding from a variety of internal organs. Seven of the workers would eventually succumb to their illnesses.

After an extensive investigation, scientists identified the source of the outbreak, a pair of grivet monkeys imported from Uganda for polio research. The primates were carrying a shocking, never-before-seen virus, which later was named Marburg for the city in which it was discovered. Researchers described it in Science:
...
Since its discovery, Marburg has remained mysterious, surfacing, killing, then disappearing. It spreads by contact with bodily fluids like blood, urine, or saliva. To date, the worst outbreak occurred in Angola in 2005. 252 cases were reported, 90% of which resulted in fatalities.

There is still no known cure.


And it continues to this day:

https://www.health24.com/Medical/infectious-diseases/News/deadly-marburg-virus-pops-up-in-west-africa-for-the-first-time-shouldnt-we-be-taking-more-notice-20200128-2 (https://www.health24.com/Medical/infectious-diseases/News/deadly-marburg-virus-pops-up-in-west-africa-for-the-first-time-shouldnt-we-be-taking-more-notice-20200128-2)
Deadly Marburg virus pops up in West-Africa for the first time - shouldn't we be taking more notice?
The new coronavirus, recently discovered in China, is dominating the headlines. But at the same time, the deadly Marburg virus was identified in fruit bats in Sierra Leone. Shouldn't the world be just as worried about that?


The world is on tenterhooks as we keep an eye on the new strain of the coronavirus from China that is rapidly spreading to other countries. But what about other deadly diseases that could potentially cause mayhem all over the world?

The Marburg virus was first identified in 1967, when two large outbreaks occurred in Marburg and Frankfurt in Germany, and in Belgrade, Serbia. Scientists identified the origin of the disease as the African green monkey used in laboratories, imported from Uganda, according to the World Health Organization.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: Mr. Bill on January 29, 2020, 10:12:14 PM
I'm not ready to say the virus didn't escape from the lab.  I don't think we have enough info yet, and I'm troubled because it sounds like the local authorities were trying to cover up the story until Beijing stepped in and decreed Thou Shalt Be Transparent.  I can think of a few different ways it might have happened, all made more likely if some of the lab staff believed it was only a bat virus that couldn't infect humans.

So maybe it happened in the lab, or maybe in the field when a technician was collecting sick bats, or maybe it was some other random non-lab guy entirely, or his farm animals, or something else.  We may never find out.  In any case, between the lab, the market, and the huge local population, the area was a great incubator for crossbreeding new virus strains.

But I'm not willing to say it was a human-created virus at this point, because that's only supported by speculation and not by any evidence that I've seen.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on January 29, 2020, 10:28:00 PM
I'm not ready to say the virus didn't escape from the lab.  I don't think we have enough info yet, and I'm troubled because it sounds like the local authorities were trying to cover up the story until Beijing stepped in and decreed Thou Shalt Be Transparent.  I can think of a few different ways it might have happened, all made more likely if some of the lab staff believed it was only a bat virus that couldn't infect humans.

So maybe it happened in the lab, or maybe in the field when a technician was collecting sick bats, or maybe it was some other random non-lab guy entirely, or his farm animals, or something else.  We may never find out.  In any case, between the lab, the market, and the huge local population, the area was a great incubator for crossbreeding new virus strains.

But I'm not willing to say it was a human-created virus at this point, because that's only supported by speculation and not by any evidence that I've seen.

This is a good take.

One of my biggest concerns has been human animal hybrid research.  A large portion of research tiday is into creating animal surrogates for humans that can be used for medical experimentation.  This theoretically greatly increases the chance of cross-species jump of diseases.  China is the most aggressive of all countries in this technology.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on January 29, 2020, 11:41:56 PM
The lab in question covered in Nature.  You dont get much more mainstream than that.

https://www.nature.com/news/inside-the-chinese-lab-poised-to-study-world-s-most-dangerous-pathogens-1.21487 (https://www.nature.com/news/inside-the-chinese-lab-poised-to-study-world-s-most-dangerous-pathogens-1.21487)
Inside the Chinese lab poised to study world's most dangerous pathogens
Maximum-security biolab is part of plan to build network of BSL-4 facilities across China.


A laboratory in Wuhan is on the cusp of being cleared to work with the world’s most dangerous pathogens. The move is part of a plan to build between five and seven biosafety level-4 (BSL-4) labs across the Chinese mainland by 2025, and has generated much excitement, as well as some concerns.

Some scientists outside China worry about pathogens escaping, and the addition of a biological dimension to geopolitical tensions between China and other nations. But Chinese microbiologists are celebrating their entrance to the elite cadre empowered to wrestle with the world’s greatest biological threats.

“It will offer more opportunities for Chinese researchers, and our contribution on the BSL‑4-level pathogens will benefit the world,” says George Gao, director of the Chinese Academy of Sciences Key Laboratory of Pathogenic Microbiology and Immunology in Beijing. There are already two BSL-4 labs in Taiwan, but the National Bio-safety Laboratory, Wuhan, would be the first on the Chinese mainland.
...
The Wuhan lab cost 300 million yuan (US$44 million), and to allay safety concerns it was built far above the flood plain and with the capacity to withstand a magnitude-7 earthquake, although the area has no history of strong earthquakes. It will focus on the control of emerging diseases, store purified viruses and act as a World Health Organization ‘reference laboratory’ linked to similar labs around the world. “It will be a key node in the global biosafety-lab network,” says lab director Yuan Zhiming.

The Chinese Academy of Sciences approved the construction of a BSL-4 laboratory in 2003, and the epidemic of SARS (severe acute respiratory syndrome) around the same time lent the project momentum. The lab was designed and constructed with French assistance as part of a 2004 cooperative agreement on the prevention and control of emerging infectious diseases. But the complexity of the project, China’s lack of experience, difficulty in maintaining funding and long government approval procedures meant that construction wasn’t finished until the end of 2014.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: surfivor on January 31, 2020, 03:15:40 AM
I really don’t know what is going on but this is another interesting angle.

I am curious what the actual trajectory will be but suppose that the virus does not appear to spread as rapidly as it should based on the supposed claims or suppose it only spreads to certain cities or even suppose it spreads to areas where 5G exists then it would possibly be the type of scenario that I sometimes suspect. Of course there are supposed isolated cases here and there but if really large numbers do not materialize then it would make me wonder or you have in Arkansas there is a case but they are keeping it secret

The actual scenario could be a bit complex like an actual virus that is not as deadly as it might appear combined with perhaps misdiagnoses  but who knows. More information I guess will develop over time

https://www.allkpop.com/forum/threads/wuhan-was-the-province-where-5g-was-rolled-out-now-the-center-of-deadly-virus.367672/

Wuhan was the province where 5G was rolled out, now the center of deadly virus

WUHAN, Oct. 31 (Xinhua) -- The branches of Chinese major telecom operators in central China's Hubei Province announced Thursday the launch of commercial 5G applications in the province.

Wuhan City, the capital of Hubei, is expected to have 10,000 5G base stations by the end of 2019, said Song Qizhu, head of Hubei Provincial Communication Administration.


——————

http://www.5gappeal.eu/scientists-and-doctors-warn-of-potential-serious-health-effects-of-5g/

The EUROPA EM-EMF Guideline 2016 states that ”there is strong evidence that long-term exposure to certain EMFs is a risk factor for diseases such as certain cancers, Alzheimer’s disease, and male infertility…Common EHS (electromagnetic hypersensitivity) symptoms include headaches, concentration difficulties, sleep problems, depression, lack of energy, fatigue, and flu-like symptoms.”
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: surfivor on February 01, 2020, 09:12:19 AM

 This is out there, but a lot of other researchers seem to be saying it's not significant

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/coronavirus-contains-hiv-insertions-stoking-fears-over-artificially-created-bioweapon

Coronavirus Contains "HIV Insertions", Stoking Fears Over Artificially Created Bioweapon

..

a respected epidemiologist who recently caught flack for claiming in a twitter threat that the virus appeared to be much more contagious than initially believed is pointing out irregularities in the virus's genome that suggests it might have been genetically engineered for the purposes of a weapon, and not just any weapon but the deadliest one of all.

In "Uncanny similarity of unique inserts in the 2019-nCoV spike protein to HIV-1 gp120 and Gag", Indian researchers are baffled by segments of the virus's RNA that have no relation to other coronaviruses like SARS, and instead appear to be closer to HIV. The virus even responds to treatment by HIV medications.

..

 The finding of 4 unique inserts in the 2019-nCoV, all of which have identity /similarity to amino acid residues in key structural proteins of HIV-1 is unlikely to be fortuitous in nature.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: Mr. Bill on February 01, 2020, 11:29:33 AM
Coronavirus Contains "HIV Insertions", Stoking Fears Over Artificially Created Bioweapon

This is not simple to interpret, so I'm not going to say right now how much I believe it.

Here is where the preprint was made available:

bioRxiv, 1/31/20: Uncanny similarity of unique inserts in the 2019-nCoV spike protein to HIV-1 gp120 and Gag (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.01.30.927871v1)

There are two important disclaimers.  The first is from bioRxiv:

Quote
bioRxiv is receiving many new papers on coronavirus 2019-nCoV.   A reminder: these are preliminary reports that have not been peer-reviewed. They should not be regarded as conclusive, guide clinical practice/health-related behavior, or be reported in news media as established information.

The second is a comment posted by the lead author of the paper, Prashant Pradhan, an hour ago:

Quote
This is a preliminary study. Considering the grave situation, it was shared in BioRxiv as soon as possible to have creative discussion on the fast evolution of SARS-like corona viruses. It was not our intention to feed into the conspiracy theories and no such claims are made here. While we appreciate the criticisms and comments provided by scientific colleagues at BioRxiv forum and elsewhere, the story has been differently interpreted and shared by social media and news platforms. We have positively received all criticisms and comments. To avoid further misinterpretation and confusions world-over, we have decided to withdraw the current version of the preprint and will get back with a revised version after reanalysis, addressing the comments and concerns. Thank you to all who contributed in this open-review process.

See the link for many comments from people who understand this stuff a lot better than I do.  For example:

Quote
...As already pointed out in multiple comments, the so called unique insertions in the Wuhan isolates compared to the SARS isolate are cherry picked. In fact, a simple blast returned alignments with Bat SARS-like coronavirus that does contain 3/4 insertions in the most recent isolate from 2015, strain SL-CoVZXC21, from bats in the Hubei province, where the novel infectious virus supposedly originated (see attached figure).

All of the insertions sites coincides with positions variable across homologs, which make sense in that these positions are important for host interactions. This is not "uncanny", it's simply how selection works. As for the so called "identity" with HIV gag proteins, again, as pointed out by others, is spurious. Both HIV and coronaviruses are RNA virus and are hypermutable. The fact that positions important for host-virus interactions, i.e. where the new insertions were found, can be variable in the new infectious Wuhan isolate is expected and there is no evidence suggests that this is a result of human manipulation. ...
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: Mr. Bill on February 02, 2020, 01:37:32 PM
FWIW, here's my layman's understanding of the controversy over the "HIV inserts in Coronavirus" paper:

It's like checking somebody's words to see if they are plagiarized from another author.

Imagine you're writing a plagiarism-detection program.  You give it lots and lots of existing texts for comparison.  Then you take the text you're testing, and let your prograpm search for phrases in common with the database of existing texts.

The problem comes in interpreting the results.  If you find the phrase "Wherefore art thou Romeo?", you know for certain that it was taken from Shakespeare.  But suppose you find "Murder cannot be hid long" or "Go with me to the king" or "I will fetch my gold".  Your simple program will say there's an uncanny similarity with Shakespeare, but anybody could have independently come up with those same phrases.  There are only so many ways in English to say "I will fetch my gold", so the coincidence is not suspicious at all.

But in order to see that, you have to go beyond blind statistical analysis.  This, apparently, is what the authors of the paper did not do.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: surfivor on February 02, 2020, 03:21:30 PM
FWIW, here's my layman's understanding of the controversy over the "HIV inserts in Coronavirus" paper:

It's like checking somebody's words to see if they are plagiarized from another author.

Imagine you're writing a plagiarism-detection program.  You give it lots and lots of existing texts for comparison.  Then you take the text you're testing, and let your prograpm search for phrases in common with the database of existing texts.

The problem comes in interpreting the results.  If you find the phrase "Wherefore art thou Romeo?", you know for certain that it was taken from Shakespeare.  But suppose you find "Murder cannot be hid long" or "Go with me to the king" or "I will fetch my gold".  Your simple program will say there's an uncanny similarity with Shakespeare, but anybody could have independently come up with those same phrases.  There are only so many ways in English to say "I will fetch my gold", so the coincidence is not suspicious at all.

But in order to see that, you have to go beyond blind statistical analysis.  This, apparently, is what the authors of the paper did not do.

That occurred to me too but I really don’t know

I’m listening to Derek Gilbert who is mentioning another expert saying it didn’t come from snakes and is only 68% similar to any known bat coronavirus and that it has no similar natural coresponding virus. If it occurred naturally it would have had to have mutated very rapidly
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: surfivor on February 02, 2020, 08:34:34 PM
I need to keep looking into this but according to infowars, the Indian scientists were pressured from behind the scenes to withdraw their paper. Zero hedge was also flagged as fake news and banned from social media but they only reported what the scientists from India were saying.

The real counter argument however which the scientists mentioned is that the coronavirus has the teeth or delivery system of HIV which if that is true it does seem unlikely that it happened naturally. The science paper says it responds to HIV treatments and has HIV characteristics. It attacks cells the same way that HIV does.

Viruses as far as I know are not intelligent enough to plagiarize other viruses the way we might plagiarize Shakespeare’ etc
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: FreeLancer on February 02, 2020, 09:18:48 PM
HIV and coronaviruses are both RNA viruses, so drugs that have the ability to block common cellular pathways used in virus replication could be effective in both.  So the fact that some HIV drugs may be found to be effective on coronavirus isn't as significant as it sounds.  Same kind of thing applies to antibiotics, as well. 

Using infowars logic, the fact that penicillin is used to treat both syphilis and your kids ear infection must mean that a lab took a spirochete from a horrible venereal disease in order to create a hybrid streptococcus to terrorize the parents of toddlers. 
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: surfivor on February 02, 2020, 09:34:23 PM
Some medicines are more general purpose like antibiotics but not all medicines are general purpose. I’ve never heard of using HIV drugs for other things like the flu or a bad cold but oddly enough in Thailand they are using HIV treatments for coronavirus, they must have been tuned into infowars

It’s funny how real information and actual cures seems to be coming  out of Asia and third world countries like India and Thailand rather than the US or the west but then I am not always impressed with medical system and research in the US. We are supposed to be world leaders in everything but maybe in some ways we are not. There’s too much focus on expensive treatments to relive symptoms than actual cures probably and lots of money spent on brainwashing the public


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-health-thailand/cocktail-of-flu-hiv-drugs-appears-to-help-fight-coronavirus-thai-doctors-idUSKBN1ZW0GQ

BANGKOK (Reuters) - Thai doctors have seen success in treating severe cases of the new coronavirus with combination of medications for flu and HIV, with initial results showing vast improvement 48 hours after applying the treatment, they said on Sunday.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: surfivor on February 02, 2020, 10:36:23 PM

Apparently James Lyon weiler, a noted scientist says the virus has markers indicating gene splicing from a lab. I think this is called p shuttle. When lab work is done using certain tools it leaves behind some kind of trace indicators in the gene according to him. It is a complex article but he is saying it most likely was a vaccine virus that escaped a lab due to p shuttle sequences found

https://jameslyonsweiler.com/2020/01/30/on-the-origins-of-the-2019-ncov-virus-wuhan-china/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

RECOMBINATION technology has been in use in molecular virology since the 1980’s. The structure of the 2019-NCoV virus genome provides a very strong clue on the likely origin of the virus.

Unlike other related coronaviruses, the 2019-nCoV virus has a unique sequence about 1,378 bp (nucleotide base pairs) long that is not found in related coronaviruses.

Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: surfivor on February 02, 2020, 10:40:23 PM

From his Twitter feed

https://mobile.twitter.com/lifebiomedguru?lang=en

The available evidence most strongly supports that the 2019-NCoV virus is a vaccine strain of coronavirus either accidentally released from a laboratory accident, or the Chinese were performing clinical studies of a Coronavirus…
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: Mr. Bill on February 03, 2020, 02:22:25 PM
Apparently James Lyon weiler, a noted scientist...

I looked him up.  "Noted" is disputed.  But maybe he's correct on this issue, who knows?

...says the virus has markers indicating gene splicing from a lab. ...

https://jameslyonsweiler.com/2020/01/30/on-the-origins-of-the-2019-ncov-virus-wuhan-china/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

He's got a followup:

https://jameslyonsweiler.com/2020/02/02/moderately-strong-confirmation-of-a-laboratory-origin-of-2019-ncov/

I dunno, there's a lot of technical stuff to go through and I'm not ready to pass judgment.

I noticed that he says in a comment that the coronavirus-HIV link is bunk:

Quote
The E-values are not significant and the sequences match many other species.

Hard to say what significance to attribute to four sequences. The hope of course would be that HIV drugs might be of some use, but that’s speculative.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: surfivor on February 04, 2020, 10:32:08 AM

 I don't know if this guy is spot on or not but anyone should be able to express their opinion on the web and not be censored or attacked. People can say it came from bats if they like, it's their opinion .. we need free speech but people with these opinions and arguments to back up their opinions are attacked constantly and they want to remove all such content etc

https://hnewswire.com/creator-of-us-bioweapons-act-says-coronavirus-is-biological-warfare-weapon/

In an explosive interview Dr. Francis Boyle, who drafted the Biological Weapons Act has given a detailed statement admitting that the 2019 Wuhan Coronavirus is an offensive Biological Warfare Weapon and that the World Health Organization (WHO) already knows about it.

Francis Boyle is a professor of international law at the University of Illinois College of Law. He drafted the U.S. domestic implementing legislation for the Biological Weapons Convention, known as the Biological Weapons Anti-Terrorism Act of 1989, that was approved unanimously by both Houses of the U.S. Congress and signed into law by President George H.W. Bush.

In an exclusive interview given to Geopolitics and Empire, Dr. Boyle discusses the coronavirus outbreak in Wuhan, China and the Biosafety Level 4 laboratory (BSL-4) from which he believes the infectious disease escaped. He believes the virus is potentially lethal and an offensive biological warfare weapon or dual-use biowarfare weapons agent genetically modified with a gain of function properties, which is why the Chinese government originally tried to cover it up and is now taking drastic measures to contain it.

The Wuhan BSL-4 lab is also a specially designated World Health Organization (WHO) research lab and Dr. Boyle contends that the WHO knows full well what is occurring.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: Mr. Bill on February 05, 2020, 09:49:46 PM
Back to the "HIV inserts in coronavirus" theory...

Here's a good article from a few days ago with some actual science in it:

Dan Samorodnitsky, Massive Science, 1/31/20: Don’t believe the conspiracy theories you hear about coronavirus and HIV (https://massivesci.com/notes/wuhan-coronavirus-ncov-sars-mers-hiv-human-immunodeficiency-virus/)

Quote
...I double checked whether it was true that HIV and coronavirus have similarities. I took the four additional sequences (the “novel inserts”) they found in the coronavirus genome and I looked to see if, as they said, it was similar to HIV. The truth is while these sequences do pop up in HIV,  they also pop up in tons of other viruses. There’s no reason to immediately suspect a nefarious fusion of HIV and coronavirus.

Sequence one out of four is indeed found in both Wuhan coronavirus and HIV. The same sequence also appears in a virus that infects Streptococcus (spherical bacteria), a rat virus, and an “acute bee paralysis virus.”

I did the same analysis on sequence two. Once again, HIV and the Wuhan coronavirus appear together, but also a mouse herpes virus, a rat cytomegalovirus (the virus that causes mononucleosis, popularly known as mono or the ‘kissing disease’), and a virus that infects sweet potatoes.

The stories for the other two sequences are the same. Those sequences appear in benign viruses like Peach-associated luteovirus (a plant virus), Bovine papillomavirus type 9 (the cow version of HPV), and Leptopilina boulardi Toti-like virus (a virus that infects wasps).

So the facts are that Wuhan coronavirus may have some new additions to it, but they’re common bits and pieces found in tons of viruses — not just HIV — and there’s no proof that they even have anything to do with how the Wuhan coronavirus behaves.

And there’s definitely no proof that they were put there on purpose.

See the articles for tables of the many matching viruses.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on February 16, 2020, 02:50:35 PM
The first two seem equally simple.  If there is a virus affecting bats which is being examined by scientists, it would just take a moment of distraction for one to become exposed and become patient zero.  in fact, such an accident is bound to happen.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8009669/Did-coronavirus-originate-Chinese-government-laboratory.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8009669/Did-coronavirus-originate-Chinese-government-laboratory.html)
Did coronavirus originate in Chinese government laboratory? Scientists believe killer disease may have begun in research facility 300 yards from Wuhan wet fish market

Chinese scientists believe the deadly coronavirus may have started life in a research facility just 300 yards from the Wuhan fish market.

A new bombshell paper from the Beijing-sponsored South China University of Technology says that the Wuhan Center for Disease Control (WHCDC) could have spawned the contagion in Hubei province.

'The possible origins of 2019-nCoV coronavirus,' penned by scholars Botao Xiao and Lei Xiao claims the WHCDC kept disease-ridden animals in laboratories, including 605 bats.

It also mentions that bats - which are linked to coronavirus - once attacked a researcher and 'blood of bat was on his skin.'
...
One of the researchers at the WHCDC described quarantining himself for two weeks after a bat's blood got on his skin, according to the report. That same man also quarantined himself after a bat urinated on him.
...
'The WHCDC was also adjacent to the Union Hospital (Figure 1, bottom) where the first group of doctors were infected during this epidemic.' The report says.


(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2020/02/16/13/24803648-8009669-_The_WHCDC_was_also_adjacent_to_the_Union_Hospital_Figure_1_bott-a-25_1581859056827.jpg)
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: Mr. Bill on February 16, 2020, 06:33:51 PM
'The possible origins of 2019-nCoV coronavirus,' penned by scholars Botao Xiao and Lei Xiao

I'm not really fond of ZeroHedge but I have to give them credit for uploading this paper to Scribd:

https://www.scribd.com/document/447056518/Originsof2019-NCoV-XiaoB-Res
(Originally uploaded to ResearchGate on 2/6/20)

It's really short and easy to read.

The problem is, it's not a research paper.  It's speculation.  Yeah, it's speculation backed by real information, but still, there is no smoking gun, only circumstantial evidence that the disease could have escaped from the lab.

Not saying they're wrong, but they haven't proven anything.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on February 16, 2020, 06:41:53 PM
Not saying they're wrong, but they haven't proven anything.

Occam's Razer.  It is simplest explanation now, no?  Bat originated disease, outbreak occurs near lab where only known bats were diseased ones under investigation, there are at least two related exposure accidents with the bats that resulted in quarantines.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on February 17, 2020, 03:39:33 AM
https://www.thestreet.com/.amp/latest-news/was-the-coronavirus-outbreak-caused-by-a-lab-accident (https://www.thestreet.com/.amp/latest-news/was-the-coronavirus-outbreak-caused-by-a-lab-accident)
Was the Coronavirus Outbreak Caused by a Lab Accident?
It's possible, says a microbiology expert,


Prof. Richard H. Ebright, the laboratory director at the Waksman Institute of Microbiology and a professor of chemistry and chemical biology at Rutgers University.
.   
The available data are consistent with either the virus entering the human population as a natural occurrence, he said, or a laboratory accident -- "which is exactly what happened in the second, third, and fourth entries of SARS-Cov into the human population in 2003-2004."
...
“Because the bat coronavirus RaTG13 and closely related bat coronaviruses also are known to have been present in a lab," he said, specifically in the coronavirus collection at Wuhan Institute of Virology. "The first human infection also could have occurred as a lab accident.”
.. 
Ebright also criticized the "tens of millions of dollars" spent by the U.S. and China on bat coronavirus surveillance and other bat coronavirus research.

This type of work, he said, has "increased -- not decreased -- risks of outbreaks."

In addition, he said, the work has provided no information useful for combating outbreaks.

"If the research funds spent on bat coronavirus surveillance research and bat coronavirius gain-of-function research instead been had spent on research on coronavirus vaccines and coronavirus antiviral drugs, there might now be effective countermeasures to combat outbreaks."
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: FreeLancer on February 17, 2020, 06:21:01 AM
Anything is possible.

But with the Chinese living cheek to jowl with all manner of creepy crawling critters they like to eat, my money is on that particular zoonotic reservoir they think of as a food supply.

Probability doesn’t always predict the eventual outcome, but it’s the starting point for formulating one’s bets.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: David in MN on February 17, 2020, 07:22:48 AM
I've been wondering about the bat thing. They've been eating bats for thousands of years. It's actually a delicacy. Their food safety practices are suspect but it's not a new thing. And... that's Asia. They put dead birds in their whiskey.

And let's not be all high and mighty here. I've killed and eaten snakes. I've had pigeon. The fact is all of us have our gross historical foods. And don't tell me that eating a bat is crazy when I will pay hundreds for sturgeon caviar. The most expensive coffee in the world is basically lemur poop.

Can I prove it was a lab accident? No. But this bizarre "they eat weird stuff" explanation is really not right. Why is it that African tribes can consume raw blood and milk?
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on February 17, 2020, 07:27:09 AM
Not just possible, but highly probable. 

They don't even sell bats at the wet market. And the ones in question live in caves 1,200 miles away.  And there has been no cases found of it in intermediate animals despite thorough testing. And it is clear that China's Ministry of Science sees this as likely source from recent directives to beef up protocols.

https://www.asiatimes.com/2020/02/article/coronavirus-lab-leakage-rumors-spreading/ (https://www.asiatimes.com/2020/02/article/coronavirus-lab-leakage-rumors-spreading/)
Coronavirus ‘lab leakage’ rumors spreading

Ebright said the coronavirus was a cousin of one found in bats captured by the institute in caves in the southwestern province of Yunnan in 2003, and that samples had been kept in the Wuhan lab since 2013.

Also, a paper that appeared in the prestigious medical journal The Lancet at the end of last month has lent credibility to speculation about the origins of the virus. The paper quoted seven doctors at Wuhan’s Jinyintan Hospital as saying that the first patient admitted on December 1 had “never been to the wet market,”
...
Furthermore, a note from the Chinese Ministry of Science and Technology is seen as a tacit admission that some kind of incident may have occurred at the Wuhan lab.

On Saturday, the ministry issued a directive mandating more stringent handling of viruses and bioagents by all labs and research institutes. The document alluded to the slack oversight and management rampant at some facilities, and stressed that protection and decontamination must be beefed up now that more labs across the nation are intensifying their efforts to develop medicines to treat it and a vaccine to prevent it.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: FreeLancer on February 17, 2020, 11:15:16 AM
Can I prove it was a lab accident? No. But this bizarre "they eat weird stuff" explanation is really not right. Why is it that African tribes can consume raw blood and milk?

HIV, Ebola, and Marburg are infectious diseases that arose in Africa after viruses circulating in zoonotic reservoirs evolved sufficiently to infect humans. Bushmeat and bats played pivotal roles in the evolution and transfer of those viral diseases, too.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on February 17, 2020, 12:54:52 PM
HIV, Ebola, and Marburg are infectious diseases that arose in Africa after viruses circulating in zoonotic reservoirs evolved sufficiently to infect humans. Bushmeat and bats played pivotal roles in the evolution and transfer of those viral diseases, too.

Marburg was lab released.  And it was later refined into a bioweapon by the Soviet Union during the cold war resulting in at least one accident.

https://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/intro/bio-marburg.htm (https://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/intro/bio-marburg.htm)

In the 1980s, the Soviet Union experimented with the Marburg virus in aerosol form on monkeys and determined that infection required only a few virions. Ken Alibek (formerly Kanatjan Alikbekov) who secretly immigrated to the United States in 1992 revealed information about Soviet experimentation with the Marburg virus. The former First Deputy Director of Biopreparat, the Soviet biological weapons program, Dr. Alibek reported that Soviet scientists were researching whether Marburg could be loaded into a warhead or a MIRV delivery system. A colleague, Dr. Nikolai Ustinov, died from the virus after accidentally infecting himself while injecting guinea pigs with the Marburg virus for the Soviet biological weapons program. As described by Dr. Alibek, the disease that followed was horrifying and induced hemorrhages throughout Dr. Ustinov's body including from his nose, mouth, and sweat glands. After he died, Dr. Ustinov's journal was covered in his unclotted blood from star-shaped hemorrhages beneath his skin.

From Dr. Ustinov's corpse the Soviet scientists isolated a strain of Marburg that was especially deadly in airborne form; the strain was named Variant U in Dr. Ustinov's honor. According to Dr. Alibek, as of 1991, the Soviets were ready to manufacture Marburg Variant U in large amounts to be place into MIRVs (Multiple Independent Re-entry Vehicles) with 10 separate targeted warheads. Once completed, such weapons were designed to be part of the Soviet strategic/operational arsenal.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on February 17, 2020, 02:53:32 PM
Tim Pool coverage: https://youtu.be/rCVrr04N6eI (https://youtu.be/rCVrr04N6eI)
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: FreeLancer on February 17, 2020, 03:38:59 PM
Marburg was not lab released. 

It was first identified as the cause of a hemorrhagic disease outbreak that arrived with African primates housed in labs in Germany in 1967, which is where it gets its name.  The virus itself exists within a large zoonotic reservoir in Africa, which has been the origin of a handful of human outbreaks over the years on that continent, as may have been the case for centuries. 

The Russians certainly did weaponize Marburg but there's no evidence of release or escape to anyone outside their bioweapon lab.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on February 17, 2020, 04:29:35 PM
Marburg was not lab released. 

It was first identified as the cause of a hemorrhagic disease outbreak that arrived with African primates housed in labs in Germany in 1967, which is where it gets its name.  The virus itself exists within a large zoonotic reservoir in Africa, which has been the origin of a handful of human outbreaks over the years on that continent, as may have been the case for centuries. 

The Russians certainly did weaponize Marburg but there's no evidence of release or escape to anyone outside their bioweapon lab.

Marburg certainly was lab released.  How do you think the family member of the lab worker and medical workers got it? 
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: FreeLancer on February 17, 2020, 05:53:42 PM
And that explains why Africa continues to have outbreaks of viral hemorrhagic fever traced to Marburg virus in their local bat populations? 

Conflating 1960s European lab outbreaks from a previously unrecognized endemic African virus with Russian bioweapon accidents in the 1980s into a man-made origin story is misleading.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on February 17, 2020, 07:27:30 PM
And that explains why Africa continues to have outbreaks of viral hemorrhagic fever traced to Marburg virus in their local bat populations? 

Conflating 1960s European lab outbreaks from a previously unrecognized endemic African virus with Russian bioweapon accidents in the 1980s into a man-made origin story is misleading.


What are you talking about?  The stories and links are all above.  There is no conflating anything.

The Marburg incident almost exactly mirrors what is suggested for COVID-19.  A bio lab was set up in Marburg Germany.  While doing research on imported African green monkeys, several lab technicians came into direct contact with them and contracted the disease.  This was passed on to other workers within the lab and spread to family members and later medical workers who attended to them. 

The same situation is believed by many scientists to have occured in the lab in Wuhan.  In this case it was infected bats from another province 1200 miles away. 

Later Marburg was being refined by Soviets into a bioweapon when another lab accident occured. 

The recurring SARs releases within China were also traced back to lab leaks:

https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20040423/china-sars-death (https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20040423/china-sars-death)
China Reports SARS Death Caused by Lab Leak

Chinese health officials have confirmed four suspected cases of severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS), including one death, which appear to have been caused by a safety breach at a laboratory studying the SARS virus.

It's the first SARS death reported since the World Health Organization (WHO) declared the initial SARS outbreak more than nearly a year ago. From November 2002 until July 2003, the newly discovered respiratory disease sickened more than 8,000 people in 29 countries and killed nearly 800.

The Chinese Ministry of Health says they have clinical confirmation of SARS coronavirus infection in two of the four suspected SARS cases. They are a 20-year-old nurse in Bejing who is currently in intensive care and a 26-year-old female laboratory researcher from Anhui Province.

If confirmed by an independent international reference lab, this would be the third outbreak of SARS to be traced back to inadequate laboratory safety procedures. Two cases of SARS have been reported in laboratory workers in Singapore and Taiwan since the first outbreak ended.


To claim these lab accidents aren't occuring is just odd.  As noted above, scientists were warning there was strong possibility of a leak when the Wuhan lab was first being built. 
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: FreeLancer on February 17, 2020, 09:17:22 PM
Put another way, these monkeys from Africa could have gone to the Marburg Zoo and the outbreak wouldn't be significantly different.  No evil laboratory required.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: Mr. Bill on February 17, 2020, 09:59:53 PM
BBC, 2/7/20: Coronavirus: Russian media hint at US conspiracy (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-51413870)

Quote
...One of main national TV networks, Channel One, has even launched a regular slot devoted to coronavirus conspiracy theories on its main evening news programme, Vremya ("Time").

The style of the reporting is ambiguous, appearing to debunk the theories while leaving viewers with the impression that they contain a kernel of truth.

One of the wilder ideas aired by Vremya recently is that the presence of the word "corona", which means crown in both Latin and Russian, in the word coronavirus hints that Donald Trump is somehow involved.

Apparently, this is because he used to preside over beauty pageants, handing the winners their crowns. ...

The subsequent video does admit the crown theory is a "strange construct", but uncritically presents an expert who says that the Chinese coronavirus strain has been artificially created, and that US intelligence agencies or American pharmaceutical companies are behind it. ...

The Channel One correspondent then quotes online conspiracy theories that the novel coronavirus strain affects only Asians and could be some kind of "ethnic bioweapon".

He concedes that there is clear evidence refuting this, but adds suggestively: "Even experts who are cautious in their assessments say that nothing can be ruled out." ...

Rule #1 of government propaganda: never let a good crisis go to waste.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on February 18, 2020, 08:49:46 AM
Following directive to improve anti-leak protocol compliance, the director of the lab in question has just been replaced with China's top biowarfare expert.  Obviously this has raised eyebrows giving confirmation that it is at "the epicentre" of the outbreak battle and fueling wild speculation that the army may have been conducting research there earlier.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8003713/China-appoints-military-bio-weapon-expert-secretive-virus-lab-Wuhan.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8003713/China-appoints-military-bio-weapon-expert-secretive-virus-lab-Wuhan.html)
China 'appoints its top military bio-warfare expert to take over secretive virus lab in Wuhan'

China has reportedly appointed its top military biological weapon expert to take over a secretive virus laboratory in Wuhan after the outbreak of a new coronavirus,
....
Chen Wei, a Major General of the People's Liberation Army, was flown in to Wuhan by the central government late last month before officially taking the helm of Wuhan Institute of Virology, according to a report.

The 54-year-old's designation prompted some people to speculate that the epidemic could have been spawned in the little-known lab
...
Chen and her team were already developing a quicker way to screen the COVID-19 coronavirus from a tent in the epicenter on January 30, according to an official report from China. 

Chen, also a leading specialist in genetic engineering vaccines in China, developed a medical spray during the SARS outbreak in 2003. The product prevented around 14,000 medical workers from contracting the virus, said another state-media report.

She is also known in the country as the 'terminator of Ebola' for leading a team to create a vaccine against the fatal virus.

Speaking of fighting the novel coronavirus, Chen said: 'The epidemic is like a military situation. The epicentre equals to the battlefield.' 

Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: surfivor on February 18, 2020, 09:53:12 AM


 Paul Cottrell, Harvard University PHD in Biology says based on the genetic structure of the virus and his analysis, the probability that it came from nature is very low.

 He also says they will want to push RNA vaccines now which have never been used and the safety of which is completely unknown

https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/american-conservative-university-podcast/e/67375058
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: surfivor on February 18, 2020, 09:56:38 AM
HIV, Ebola, and Marburg are infectious diseases that arose in Africa after viruses circulating in zoonotic reservoirs evolved sufficiently to infect humans. Bushmeat and bats played pivotal roles in the evolution and transfer of those viral diseases, too.

 The explanation of how AIDS made it to humans is very dubious. It seems more likely it came from Polio vaccines made from monkey kidneys.

 The situation in Africa has always been very deceptive because anyone sick of malnutrition gets classified as having AIDS so they can boost the numbers and get funding for drugs but they never actually test people for AIDS because according to them it's too expensive.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on February 18, 2020, 12:52:27 PM
Interesting side story.  The US government recently arrested Charles Lieber, Harvard biochemistry professor, for setting up a secret lab at China's Wuhan University of Technology.  He allegedly lied (not only failed to disclose but actively covered up) on US DOD military projects paperwork that he was being paid $50,000 a month and $150,000 bonus a year by the Chinese government through their Thousand Talents Plan.  The TTP. has been declared a US national security risk as China has used it to steal high level military secrets.  Harvard claims they had no idea he was moonlighting let alone setting up a parallel lab in Wuhan.  It further suggests that despite China's claims otherwise, some research at Wuhan institutes have a covert military purpose. It also suggests that China has a means to secretly influence major US universities through their staff.

https://www.npr.org/2020/01/28/800442646/acclaimed-harvard-scientist-is-arrested-accused-of-lying-about-ties-to-china (https://www.npr.org/2020/01/28/800442646/acclaimed-harvard-scientist-is-arrested-accused-of-lying-about-ties-to-china)
Acclaimed Harvard Scientist Is Arrested, Accused Of Lying About Ties To China

The arrangement between Lieber and the Chinese institution spanned "significant" periods of time between at least 2012 and 2017, according to the affidavit. It says the deal called for Lieber to be paid up to $50,000 a month, in addition to $150,000 per year "for living and personal expenses."

"Lieber was also awarded more than $1.5 million by WUT and the Chinese government to establish a research lab and conduct research at WUT," the document states.

For a large part of the time frame in question, Lieber was also the principal investigator on at least six U.S. Defense Department research grants, with a cumulative value of more than $8 million, according to the affidavit. It also says he was the principal investigator on more than $10 million in grants funded by the National Institutes of Health.

"These grants require the disclosure of significant foreign financial conflicts of interest, including financial support from foreign governments or foreign entities," the U.S. Attorney's Office in Massachusetts said in a statement announcing the charges against Lieber.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: Mr. Bill on February 18, 2020, 01:21:12 PM
Charles Lieber, Harvard biochemistry professor

Minor correction: it's chemistry, not biochemistry.  Here's his CV:

http://cml.harvard.edu/assets/CML_CV_11Feb2020.pdf

Quote
Professional Experience
1987-1990: Assistant Professor of Chemistry, Columbia University
1990-1991: Associate Professor of Chemistry, Columbia University
1991-1999: Professor of Chemistry, Harvard University
1999-2017: Mark Hyman Professor of Chemistry, Harvard University
2015-present: Chair, Department of Chemistry and Chemical Biology, Harvard University
2017-present: Joshua and Beth Friedman University Professor, Harvard University

...

Research Interests
Chemistry and physics of materials with an emphasis on rational synthesis, hierarchical assembly and fundamental physical properties of nanoscale wires; nano-bioelectronics with a focus on real-time, ultra-sensitive detectors, revolutionary tools for single cell measurements, and three-dimensional innervation of synthetic tissue and organs; brain science with an emphasis on development of the new syringe-injectable electronics paradigm for long-term mapping and modulation of neural activity in live animals, studies of fundamental problems in neuroscience, including memory, learning and cognition, and the development of implants for the treatment of disease.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on February 18, 2020, 03:04:57 PM
Minor correction: it's chemistry, not biochemistry.  Here's his CV:

http://cml.harvard.edu/assets/CML_CV_11Feb2020.pdf

Harvard University listing which aligns with all the news reports:

https://chemistry.harvard.edu/people/charles-lieber (https://chemistry.harvard.edu/people/charles-lieber)
He moved to Harvard University in 1991 and now holds a joint appointment in the Department of Chemistry and Chemical Biology, as the Joshua and Beth Friedman University Professor, and the School of Engineering and Applied Sciences.

Here is their description:

https://chembiophd.hms.harvard.edu/ (https://chembiophd.hms.harvard.edu/)

Chemical biology is a rapidly growing field that combines the rigor and quantitative aspects of traditional chemistry and biochemistry programs with the excitement and medical relevance of modern molecular, cellular, organismic, and human biology. We believe that many biological problems demand molecular and quantitative answers that can only be supplied by tools and approaches derived from chemistry — such as single-molecule measurements, single-cell imaging, and the use of exogenous molecules to modulate the activity of cellular components. The integration of chemistry, biology, and medicine has become an integral and essential aspect of the training and research culture at Harvard, and this spirit is embodied in the Chemical Biology Program.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on February 18, 2020, 03:44:43 PM
Department of Justice reports one of Lieber's assistent "students" was arrested as he tried to flee the US with "vials of biological research".The other assistant "student" was found to be a Lieutenant in the People's Liberation Army and Communist Party.  Definitely nothing to see here because conspiracies never happen.

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/harvard-university-professor-and-two-chinese-nationals-charged-three-separate-china-related (https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/harvard-university-professor-and-two-chinese-nationals-charged-three-separate-china-related)
Harvard University Professor and Two Chinese Nationals Charged in Three Separate China Related Cases

Zaosong Zheng
It is alleged that on Dec. 9, 2019, Zheng stole 21 vials of biological research and attempted to smuggle them out of the United States aboard a flight destined for China.  Federal officers at Logan Airport discovered the vials hidden in a sock inside one of Zheng’s bags, and not properly packaged.  It is alleged that initially, Zheng lied to officers about the contents of his luggage, but later admitted he had stolen the vials from a lab at Beth Israel.  Zheng stated that he intended to bring the vials to China to use them to conduct research in his own laboratory and publish the results under his own name.

Yanqing Ye
According to the indictment, Ye is a Lieutenant of the People’s Liberation Army (PLA), the armed forces of the People’s Republic of China and member of the Chinese Communist Party (CCP).  On her J-1 visa application, Ye falsely identified herself as a “student” and lied about her ongoing military service at the National University of Defense Technology (NUDT), a top military academy directed by the CCP.  It is further alleged that while studying at Boston University’s (BU) Department of Physics, Chemistry and Biomedical Engineering from October 2017 to April 2019, Ye continued to work as a PLA Lieutenant completing numerous assignments from PLA officers such as conducting research, assessing U.S. military websites and sending U.S. documents and information to China.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on February 18, 2020, 04:17:25 PM
Airang News, the official news channel in South Korea, released a story on this:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=ZC0gww2yznI&feature=youtu.be (https://youtube.com/watch?v=ZC0gww2yznI&feature=youtu.be)

Their overall coverage of the virus is pretty amazing. A LOT of footage of what is happening in Wuhan and coverage of missing scientists, etc.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: Mr. Bill on February 18, 2020, 08:41:59 PM
https://chemistry.harvard.edu/people/charles-lieber (https://chemistry.harvard.edu/people/charles-lieber)
He moved to Harvard University in 1991 and now holds a joint appointment in the Department of Chemistry and Chemical Biology, as the Joshua and Beth Friedman University Professor, and the School of Engineering and Applied Sciences.

Here is their description:

https://chembiophd.hms.harvard.edu/ (https://chembiophd.hms.harvard.edu/)

Yes, I saw that.  Lieber is in a department that does both chemistry and chemical biology.  Lieber himself is a chemistry professor and does lots of nanoscale engineering stuff with applications in biology.  He is not a biochemist.  He is definitely not a virus researcher.

Department of Justice reports one of Lieber's assistent "students" was arrested as he tried to flee the US with "vials of biological research".The other assistant "student" was found to be a Lieutenant in the People's Liberation Army and Communist Party.  Definitely nothing to see here because conspiracies never happen.

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/harvard-university-professor-and-two-chinese-nationals-charged-three-separate-china-related (https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/harvard-university-professor-and-two-chinese-nationals-charged-three-separate-china-related)

The Dept of Justice news release does not say that Zheng and Ye were students of Lieber.  Lieber was at Harvard, Zheng was at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center (although he was sponsored by Harvard), and Ye was at Boston University.

Lieber, Zheng, and Ye may be guilty of serious crimes, but at the moment there is no link between them and coronavirus.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: surfivor on February 19, 2020, 01:51:17 AM
Yes, I saw that.  Lieber is in a department that does both chemistry and chemical biology.  Lieber himself is a chemistry professor and does lots of nanoscale engineering stuff with applications in biology.  He is not a biochemist.  He is definitely not a virus researcher.

The Dept of Justice news release does not say that Zheng and Ye were students of Lieber.  Lieber was at Harvard, Zheng was at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center (although he was sponsored by Harvard), and Ye was at Boston University.

Lieber, Zheng, and Ye may be guilty of serious crimes, but at the moment there is no link between them and coronavirus.

Probably there are inadequate controls for bio weapon research and I don’t think bio weapons should be developed because there is a possibility of escape from labs.

If it wasn’t for the coronavirus event we probably would never have heard of these students stealing virus material. In today’s world, people are probably more worried about being labeled as racist than to call on controls to prevent trafficking of bio material by Chinese students.

 If there is a risk of escape from labs then something should be done about it but I don’t have the impression that anything at all is done about it. I don’t hear many scientists calling for stricter controls or an end to bio weapons research. They probably are biased as well, they don’t want it to come out that it could have escaped from a lab so they are trying to claim it couldn’t have happened that it came from a lab
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on February 19, 2020, 11:58:22 AM
Yes, I saw that.  Lieber is in a department that does both chemistry and chemical biology.  Lieber himself is a chemistry professor and does lots of nanoscale engineering stuff with applications in biology.  He is not a biochemist.  He is definitely not a virus researcher.

I never said he was a virus researcher.   He wasnt just "in" the department he was over all of it - "Chair of Harvard University’s Chemistry and Chemical Biology Department".  That is Harvard's school offering biochemistry discipline (along with microbiology).  His work is in biochemistry and he publishes regularly in the biochemistry journals.  Example:

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/acs.biochem.8b00122 (https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/acs.biochem.8b00122)

(https://pubs.acs.org/na101/home/literatum/publisher/achs/journals/covergifs/bichaw/title.png)
Tissue-like Neural Probes for Understanding and Modulating the Brain
Guosong Hong, Robert D. Viveros, Theodore J. Zwang, Xiao Yang and Charles M. Lieber

So how is he not a biochemist?

The Dept of Justice news release does not say that Zheng and Ye were students of Lieber.  Lieber was at Harvard, Zheng was at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center (although he was sponsored by Harvard), and Ye was at Boston University.

Lieber, Zheng, and Ye may be guilty of serious crimes, but at the moment there is no link between them and coronavirus.

The DOJ report does not say it explicitely but others have reported that sponsoring these research scholars/students (including vouching for J-1;visas) was part of his contract with the Wuhan University.  Zaosong Zheng was allegedly explicitely sponsored by him via Harvard exchange program.  But page is down now and appears not to be archived:

https://connects.catalyst.harvard.edu/Profiles/display/Person/173304 (https://connects.catalyst.harvard.edu/Profiles/display/Person/173304)

Newspaper articles say Harvard cancelled these arrangements.

https://boston.cbslocal.com/2019/12/31/zaosong-zheng-china-cancer-research-smuggling-charge-boston-beth-israel-deaconess-medical-center/ (https://boston.cbslocal.com/2019/12/31/zaosong-zheng-china-cancer-research-smuggling-charge-boston-beth-israel-deaconess-medical-center/)
Medical Student Charged With Trying To Smuggle Cancer Research From Boston To China

Harvard officials told The Boston Globe that Zheng’s educational exchange visa had been revoked.

Beth Israel, a Harvard-affiliated teaching hospital, has fired Zheng and is cooperating with authorities, a spokeswoman said.


Note, he wasnt a medical student but rather an exchange scholar under that program.  Harvard's newspaper corrected that but some press still continues the misnomer.

It isnt clear about Ye.  She too was in the boston biochemistry network. The FBI has released wanted posters but hasnt given much details including the names of the scientists she targetted (other than the Boston connection) but many are speculating that Lieber was involved too.  It is expected she is back in China.  Some reporters are currently investigating if Ye and Zheng worked in his lab in China. 

I also  never said there was a link to coronavirus.  But rather that this solidifies three points:

1. Chinese government has cultivated great influence in US Universities and Labs. 
2. There is definitely a lab leakage issue.  A person stole 21 vials of bioligical research specimens and tried to smuggle them unprotected via commercial air travel.
3. There is a definitely a connection betwen Wuhan Universities and labs and the Chinese military via the TTP.

Which makes clear that theories on coronavirus lab origin should not be dismissed out of hand.  On top of this we now have stories of scientists sellling animals used for experiments into the meat markets.  So we now have a possibility where both a leak and market connection seems plausible.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: FreeLancer on February 19, 2020, 12:38:38 PM
What’s more likely to expose a large number of people to an enzootic pathogen, a lab or a public meat market dealing in exotic live animals of dubious provenance and legality?

Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on February 19, 2020, 01:09:12 PM
What’s more likely to expose a large number of people to an enzootic pathogen, a lab or a public meat market dealing in exotic live animals of dubious provenance and legality?

A lab with confirmed 600 infected bats and history of incidents or a meat market with no confirmed infected animals?  I will take the lab any day.  Especially given the number of early cases with no connection to the market.

However, a new report from a group of Chinese scientists published in the medical journal The Lancet on Friday challenges that idea, suggesting that the virus could have originated elsewhere before entering the Huanan Wholesale Seafood Market.

Looking in detail at the cases of the first 41 people hospitalized with the coronavirus, the scientists found that 13 cases had no link to the marketplace, including the first case of the virus on December 1, Science magazine reported.

"That's a big number, 13, with no link," Daniel Lucey, an infectious-diseases specialist at Georgetown University, told Science.

Lucey told the magazine it was possible that the first cases occurred in November and that the virus could have spread undetected among people before it was found in the first group of cases from the wet market.


Lancet article with details:

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)30183-5/fulltext (https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)30183-5/fulltext)
Clinical features of patients infected with 2019 novel coronavirus in Wuhan, China

But I may be bias having seen lab accidents firsthand.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: FreeLancer on February 19, 2020, 03:38:45 PM
What’s trustworthy about a market processing thousands of illegal wild animals from around the world everyday?  I’d trust just about any lab, short of the narco kind, over a market that is breaking health and wildlife trafficking laws every day, and probably with the tacit approval of the authorities. 

My money is on the meat market or similar livestock/wildlife mixing point, likely upwards of 75% probability in my opinion.  Lab accident is probably no more than 10%, less than 1% chance of deliberate bioweapon release, and the balance to who knows what else.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: David in MN on February 19, 2020, 03:43:23 PM
How about a compromise  'what fool puts a hazmat lab down the road from an exotic species market?'

We'll probably never know the truth but it sure looks like there's enough blame to go around. I've even read conflicting timelines so maybe the government there (maybe) found the disease and sat on it. That fits either narrative. And given that we've seen evidence the both the lab had safety issues and the market had no standards they could both be to blame.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on February 19, 2020, 03:54:06 PM
Well, we know from the SARS experience that it was a professor, Dr. Liu Jianlun, who was the "super-spreader" in the 2003 outbreak. 

https://amp.scmp.com/article/438097/patient-zero-believed-he-did-not-have-sars-inquiry-told (https://amp.scmp.com/article/438097/patient-zero-believed-he-did-not-have-sars-inquiry-told)
'Patient zero' believed he did not have Sars, inquiry told

A Guangdong professor at the centre of the global spread of Sars told Hong Kong doctors in February he was not suffering from the atypical pneumonia that was making hundreds of people sick in southern China at the time, a Legco hearing heard yesterday.

'Patient zero' believed he did not have Sars, inquiry told
Published: 12:00am, 14 Dec, 2003

A Guangdong professor at the centre of the global spread of Sars told Hong Kong doctors in February he was not suffering from the atypical pneumonia that was making hundreds of people sick in southern China at the time, a Legco hearing heard yesterday.

On the first day of the select committee inquiry on the handling of the Sars outbreak that killed 299 people in Hong Kong, Kwong Wah Hospital doctors and nurses were asked to account for the management of so-called 'patient zero', Liu Jianlun.Liu infected at least 13 tourists staying at the Metropole Hotel in Mongkok.

Globally, the outbreak eventually claimed the lives of 774 of the 8,098 who fell ill.Yesterday's five-hour hearing did not produce any controversy, as was widely anticipated. Instead, hospital staff were praised for their handling of Liu's case.


And 3 out of 4 later cases resulted from lab accidents.  Not a great record.  That is why US scientists were against the Wuhan lab and predicted escapes would happen.  How can it not with the continuos breaks of protocol?
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on February 19, 2020, 05:42:06 PM
For those who don't know the story of SARS spread, the epidemic is believed to have started when a Professor in China became infected when investigating it at a hospital. Allegedly he feared the Chinese health system so he traveled to Hong Kong under story of going to a wedding to arrive at the region's best hospital.  In the process he infected dozens if not hundreds of people.  Here is an article summarizing the case:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/an-uncommon-cold-113445.html (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/an-uncommon-cold-113445.html)
An uncommon cold

This is why Hong Kong was so desparate to close off travel from China mainland at start of the recent outbreak.  Once bitten, twice shy.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on February 19, 2020, 06:23:34 PM
More background on one of several SARS lab accidents.

https://www.the-scientist.com/news-analysis/sars-escaped-beijing-lab-twice-50137 (https://www.the-scientist.com/news-analysis/sars-escaped-beijing-lab-twice-50137)
SARS escaped Beijing lab twice
Laboratory safety at the Chinese Institute of Virology under close scrutiny


The latest outbreak of severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) in China, with eight confirmed or suspected cases so far and hundreds quarantined, involves two researchers who were working with the virus in a Beijing research lab, the World Health Organization (WHO) said on Monday (April 26).

“We suspect two people, a 26-year-old female postgraduate student and a 31-year-old male postdoc, were both infected, apparently in two separate incidents,” Bob Dietz, WHO spokesman in Beijing, told The Scientist.

The woman was admitted to hospital on April 4, but the man apparently became infected independently 2 weeks later, being hospitalized on April 17. Both worked at the Chinese Institute of Virology in Beijing, part of China's Center for Disease Control.
...
China has level three research guidelines and rules in place for handling the SARS virus, which are “of acceptable quality” to WHO, Dietz told The Scientist. But “it's a question of procedures and equipment. Frankly we are going to go in now a take a very close look,” he said.
...
Antoine Danchin, an epidemiologist with the Hong Kong University–Pasteur Research Center, who studied the SARS epidemic in Hong Kong, told The Scientist the latest incidents were probably the result of lab accidents.

“Normally, it's not possible to contaminate people even under level two confinement, if the security rules are obeyed, with the appropriate hoods, and so on,” Danchin said. SARS work requires level three. “So it suggests there has been some mishandling of something.”

“The lab might have all the right rules, but the people may not comply! For example, notebooks are not supposed to be taken out, a lot of things like that. A virus doesn't jump on people!” Danchin said.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: FreeLancer on February 19, 2020, 10:37:04 PM
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/02/scientists-strongly-condemn-rumors-and-conspiracy-theories-about-origin-coronavirus (https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/02/scientists-strongly-condemn-rumors-and-conspiracy-theories-about-origin-coronavirus)

Quote
The authors of The Lancet statement note that scientists from several countries who have studied SARS-CoV-2 “overwhelmingly conclude that this coronavirus originated in wildlife,” just like many other viruses that have recently emerged in humans. “Conspiracy theories do nothing but create fear, rumours, and prejudice that jeopardise our global collaboration in the fight against this virus,” the statement says.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on February 20, 2020, 02:51:29 AM
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/02/scientists-strongly-condemn-rumors-and-conspiracy-theories-about-origin-coronavirus (https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/02/scientists-strongly-condemn-rumors-and-conspiracy-theories-about-origin-coronavirus)

Boy, what a silly article of strawmen.  Of course it originated in wildlife, bats specifically.  That isn't the question.  The question is what is the source of this epidemic from the wildlife?  Was it from wild anteaters brought to the meat market, was it wild bats brought to the lab, or something else?

The earliest documented cases had no connection to the meat market whatsoever.  Which strongly suggests that the market related cases came from people not animals.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/01/wuhan-seafood-market-may-not-be-source-novel-virus-spreading-globally (https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/01/wuhan-seafood-market-may-not-be-source-novel-virus-spreading-globally)
Wuhan seafood market may not be source of novel virus spreading globally

Lucey says if the new data are accurate, the first human infections must have occurred in November 2019—if not earlier—because there is an incubation time between infection and symptoms surfacing. If so, the virus possibly spread silently between people in Wuhan—and perhaps elsewhere—before the cluster of cases from the city’s now-infamous Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market was discovered in late December. “The virus came into that marketplace before it came out of that marketplace,” Lucey asserts.

Net, the market has all the signs of being a scapegoat, er scapeanteater.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on February 20, 2020, 04:32:37 AM
Boy that article is worse than initial blush.  It misrepresents the letter and cited study completely.  Here is what actual letter says:

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)30418-9/fulltext (https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)30418-9/fulltext)
Statement in support of the scientists, public health professionals, and medical professionals of China combatting COVID-19

We stand together to strongly condemn conspiracy theories suggesting that COVID-19 does not have a natural origin. Scientists from multiple countries have published and analysed genomes of the causative agent, severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2),1 and they overwhelmingly conclude that this coronavirus originated in wildlife,2,  3,  4,  5,  6,  7,  8,  9,  10 as have so many other emerging

In other words, they are only pushing back against the "bioengineered" hypothesis

Here is what study says:

http://virological.org/t/the-proximal-origin-of-sars-cov-2/398 (http://virological.org/t/the-proximal-origin-of-sars-cov-2/398)
The Proximal Origin of SARS-CoV-2

It is improbable that SARS-CoV-2 emerged through laboratory manipulation of an existing SARS-related coronavirus.
...
Instead, we propose two scenarios that can plausibly explain the origin of SARS-CoV-2: (i) natural selection in a non-human animal host prior to zoonotic transfer, and (ii) natural selection in humans following zoonotic transfer. We also discuss whether selection during passage in culture could have given rise to the same observed features.
...
As many of the early cases of COVID-19 were linked to the Huanan seafood and wildlife market in Wuhan, it is possible that an animal source was present at this location. Given the similarity of SARS-CoV-2 to bat SARS-like CoVs, particularly RaTG13, it is plausible that bats serve as reservoir hosts for SARS-CoV-2
...
no pangolin CoV has yet been identified that is sufficiently similar to SARS-CoV-2 across its entire genome to support direct human infection. In addition, the pangolin CoV does not carry a polybasic cleavage site insertion. For a precursor virus to acquire the polybasic cleavage site and mutations in the spike protein suitable for human ACE2 receptor binding, an animal host would likely have to have a high population density – to allow natural selection to proceed efficiently – and an ACE2 gene that is similar to the human orthologue. Further characterization of CoVs in pangolins and other animals that may harbour SARS-CoV-like viruses should be a public health priority.
...
It is also possible that a progenitor to SARS-CoV-2 jumped from a non-human animal to humans, with the genomic features described above acquired through adaptation during subsequent human-to-human transmission.
...
Estimates of the timing of the most recent common ancestor (tMRCA) of SARS-CoV-2 using currently available genome sequence data point to virus emergence in late November to early December 201920,21, compatible with the earliest retrospectively confirmed cases22. Hence, this scenario presumes a period of unrecognised transmission in humans between the initial zoonotic transfer event and the acquisition of the polybasic cleavage site.
..
Basic research involving passage of bat SARS-like coronaviruses in cell culture and/or animal models have been ongoing in BSL-2 for many years in multiple laboratories across the world25-28. There are also documented instances of the laboratory acquisition of SARS-CoV-1 by laboratory personnel working under BSL-2 containment29,30. We must therefore consider the possibility of a deliberate or inadvertent release of SARS-CoV-2. In theory, it is possible that SARS-CoV-2 acquired the observed RBD mutations site during adaptation to passage in cell culture, as has been observed in studies with SARS-CoV5 as well as MERS-CoV31


So, no intermediate animal (eg pangolin anteater) has yet been found that could directly infect people. That is required to support the meat market hypothesis.

And the lab release hypothesis is still fully supported  In fact, it speaks to two possible scenarios - direct transmission from bat and regular interaction with bats supporting adaptation within humans.

What is interesting is that they included the possibility that release could be"deliberate".   So much for quashing "conspiracy theories".

This is a good example of the importance in digging into actual source documents rather than relying on media filtered headlines.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: FreeLancer on February 20, 2020, 09:11:28 AM

http://virological.org/t/the-proximal-origin-of-sars-cov-2/398 (http://virological.org/t/the-proximal-origin-of-sars-cov-2/398)
The Proximal Origin of SARS-CoV-2

Quote
Conclusions

In the midst of the global COVID-19 public health emergency it is reasonable to wonder why the origins of the epidemic matter. A detailed understanding of how an animal virus jumped species boundaries to infect humans so productively will help in the prevention of future zoonotic events. For example, if SARS-CoV-2 pre-adapted in another animal species then we are at risk of future re-emergence events even if the current epidemic is controlled. In contrast, if the adaptive process we describe occurred in humans, then even if we have repeated zoonotic transfers they are unlikely to take-off unless the same series of mutations occurs. In addition, identifying the closest animal relatives of SARS-CoV-2 will greatly assist studies of virus function. Indeed, the availability of the RaTG13 bat sequence facilitated the comparative genomic analysis performed here, helping to reveal the key mutations in the RBD as well as the polybasic cleavage site insertion.

The genomic features described here may in part explain the infectiousness and transmissibility of SARS-CoV-2 in humans. Although genomic evidence does not support the idea that SARS-CoV-2 is a laboratory construct, it is currently impossible to prove or disprove the other theories of its origin described here, and it is unclear whether future data will help resolve this issue. Identifying the immediate non-human animal source and obtaining virus sequences from it would be the most definitive way of revealing virus origins. In addition, it would be helpful to obtain more genetic and functional data about the virus, including experimental studies of receptor binding and the role of the polybasic cleavage site and predicted O-linked glycans. The identification of a potential intermediate host of SARS-CoV-2, as well as the sequencing of very early cases including those not connected to the Wuhan market, would similarly be highly informative. Irrespective of how SARS-CoV-2 originated, the ongoing surveillance of pneumonia in humans and other animals is clearly of utmost importance.


They don't sound very optimistic that a precise origin can determined.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on February 20, 2020, 10:07:40 AM

They don't sound very optimistic that a precise origin can determined.

Yeah.  It will be very difficult now to prove market hypothesis because after the initial testing they closed it down and heavily disinfected everything.  So any smoking guns are gone now.  However, if they found a non-bat animal carrying it in the wild that was sold at the market (and not held in the lab) then it would tip the scales heavily in it's favor.

Testing the first lab hypothesis is fairly easy.  All they have to do is open up the genetic records on the viruses they had identified in the lab.  Ironically, we know this one originated from bats because UK, Germany, and US scientists each matched it with a high 90s percent level to previously published sequences from the Wuhan lab by bat virus scientist Shi Zhengli.  But they have refused so far to release more up to date data to WHO or other labs. 

The speculation isn't going to go away unless they open the books.  The lab and government lied so much early on that their denials without evidence are now being taken as signs of hidden truth:

Why a Chinese virology lab is unable to quell the coronavirus conspiracy theories around it

Some “rumors” from the early days of the epidemic after all turned out not to be far from reality. Li Wenliang, a doctor, had told others about a cluster of cases of viral pneumonia before the outbreak had been made public, but was summoned by Wuhan police for “spreading rumors.” He later became infected himself, and his death turned him into a vivid symbol of the costs of the government’s opacity—prompting an outpouring of anger and grief, and rare public demands for freedom of speech and transparency from the government.

“With the government’s bungled handling of the epidemic in Wuhan, and the pain and uncertainty the epidemic and the efforts to cope with it have produced, public trust has clearly decreased,” said Professor Dali Yang, a political scientist at University of Chicago via email. “The death of Dr. Li was a milestone in shared grief in China.”

What now can be done to contain theories of a rogue lab? Probably not a whole lot, says Kajimoto.

“When the authorities and experts have the history of not being transparent, whatever they say could sound as if they are trying to hide something,” said the assistant professor. “In this case, publicly denying the link between the lab and coronavirus could even be construed as ‘evidence’ by people who believe in this conspiracy because denial is the ‘sign’ that the truth is hidden.”
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: Mr. Bill on February 20, 2020, 04:16:05 PM
My wife works with a guy who is in touch with close relatives in Wuhan.  FWIW, his personal belief is that the virus escaped from the lab.  He thinks that if it came via the markets, it would have appeared first in one of the zillions of rural markets, not in the big city.

I can't keep up with all the articles, but the picture that's starting to emerge is that the virus reached humans in November (or maybe even October), but wasn't recognized until a mass outbreak associated with the food market in late December.  Perhaps there was a human "super-spreader" at the market, rather than an animal source.

Anyway, with a month delay between arrival in humans and the market incident, there are lots of routes the virus could have taken.  The lab remains an obvious source.  But Wuhan is a busy city, and a hub for the region.  So that also leaves open the possibility that the virus was carried into Wuhan by one or more people who got infected elsewhere, and perhaps only had flu-like symptoms.

(The situation for Wuhan residents is apparently rather grim.  My wife's co-worker reports that his relatives (who are not infected) have been confined to their apartment for 4 weeks.  They received a pass to go out and shop, once.  Outside of that, they are dependent on bags of supplies delivered to their door by the authorities.  You can buy a small bag or a large bag, and there's no choice of what they bring you.)
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on February 23, 2020, 06:57:19 AM
The part about a scientist selling experimental animals in the meat markets have been covered up.  They imprisoned the scientist in question on what most colleagues call questionable embezzlement charges.  The real reason they say was his selling of transgenic animals in the market. The biggest fear of human/animal transgenic hybrids is the hopping of diseases across species. Background: https://www.chemistryworld.com/news/star-chinese-scientist-and-assistant-jailed-for-embezzling-research-funds/4011003.article (https://www.chemistryworld.com/news/star-chinese-scientist-and-assistant-jailed-for-embezzling-research-funds/4011003.article)

https://nypost.com/2020/02/22/dont-buy-chinas-story-the-coronavirus-may-have-leaked-from-a-lab/amp/ (https://nypost.com/2020/02/22/dont-buy-chinas-story-the-coronavirus-may-have-leaked-from-a-lab/amp/)
Don’t buy China’s story: The coronavirus may have leaked from a lab

At an emergency meeting in Beijing held last Friday, Chinese leader Xi Jinping spoke about the need to contain the coronavirus and set up a system to prevent similar epidemics in the future.

A national system to control biosecurity risks must be put in place “to protect the people’s health,” Xi said, because lab safety is a “national security” issue.

Xi didn’t actually admit that the coronavirus now devastating large swathes of China had escaped from one of the country’s bioresearch labs. But the very next day, evidence emerged suggesting that this is exactly what happened, as the Chinese Ministry of Science and Technology released a new directive entitled: “Instructions on strengthening biosecurity management in microbiology labs that handle advanced viruses like the novel coronavirus.”
...
And then there is this little-known fact: Some Chinese researchers are in the habit of selling their laboratory animals to street vendors after they have finished experimenting on them.

You heard me right.

Instead of properly disposing of infected animals by cremation, as the law requires, they sell them on the side to make a little extra cash. Or, in some cases, a lot of extra cash. One Beijing researcher, now in jail, made a million dollars selling his monkeys and rats on the live animal market, where they eventually wound up in someone’s stomach.
...
Also fueling suspicions about SARS-CoV-2’s origins is the series of increasingly lame excuses offered by the Chinese authorities as people began to sicken and die.

They first blamed a seafood market not far from the Institute of Virology, even though the first documented cases of Covid-19 (the illness caused by SARS-CoV-2) involved people who had never set foot there. Then they pointed to snakes, bats and even a cute little scaly anteater called a pangolin as the source of the virus.

I don’t buy any of this. It turns out that snakes don’t carry coronaviruses and that bats aren’t sold at a seafood market. Neither are pangolins, for that matter, an endangered species valued for their scales as much as for their meat.

The evidence points to SARS-CoV-2 research being carried out at the Wuhan Institute of Virology. The virus may have been carried out of the lab by an infected worker or crossed over into humans when they unknowingly dined on a lab animal. Whatever the vector, Beijing authorities are now clearly scrambling to correct the serious problems with the way their labs handle deadly pathogens.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: LvsChant on February 23, 2020, 01:05:31 PM
Here is a YT vid I saw from a Catholic website. I found it very interesting to hear what the interviewee had to say on this topic...

https://youtu.be/lxEFL5KC9Xc
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on February 23, 2020, 03:34:55 PM
Here is a YT vid I saw from a Catholic website. I found it very interesting to hear what the interviewee had to say on this topic...

https://youtu.be/lxEFL5KC9Xc

Very interesting point regarding the Canadian samples.

https://beta.canada.com/health/bio-warfare-experts-question-why-canada-was-sending-lethal-viruses-to-china/wcm/fce2a521-4ce1-4eb0-8ccf-43f165713c0b/amp/ (https://beta.canada.com/health/bio-warfare-experts-question-why-canada-was-sending-lethal-viruses-to-china/wcm/fce2a521-4ce1-4eb0-8ccf-43f165713c0b/amp/)
Bio-warfare experts question why Canada was sending lethal viruses to China

Scientists from Canada’s National Microbiology Laboratory (NML) have also said the highly lethal bug is a potential bio-weapon.

But this March that same lab shipped samples of the henipavirus family and of Ebola to China, which has long been suspected of running a secretive biological warfare (BW) program.
....
some experts are raising questions about the March transfer, which appears to be at the centre of a shadowy RCMP investigation and dismissal of a top scientist at the Winnipeg-based NML.
...
“I would say this Canadian ‘contribution’ might likely be counterproductive,” said Dany Shoham, a biological and chemical warfare expert at Israel’s Bar-Ilan University. “I think the Chinese activities … are highly suspicious, in terms of exploring (at least) those viruses as BW agents. “
...
Asked if the possibility of the Canadian germs being diverted into a Chinese weapons program is connected to other upheaval at the microbiology lab, Public Health Agency of Canada spokeswoman Anna Maddison said this week the agency “continues to look into the administrative matter.”

The agency divulged last week that it sent samples of Ebola and henipavirus — which includes Nipah and the related Hendra — to China in March. It was meant for virus research, part of the agency’s mission to back international public-health research, a spokesman said.

Last month, an acclaimed NML scientist — Xiangguo Qiu — was reportedly escorted out of the lab along with her husband, another biologist, and members of her research team. The agency said it was investigating an “administrative issue,” and had referred a possible policy breach to the RCMP. Little more has been said about the affair.


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/chinese-researcher-escorted-from-infectious-disease-lab-amid-rcmp-investigation-1.5211567 (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/chinese-researcher-escorted-from-infectious-disease-lab-amid-rcmp-investigation-1.5211567)
Chinese researcher escorted from infectious disease lab amid RCMP investigation

Dr. Xiangguo Qiu, her husband Keding Cheng and an unknown number of her students from China were removed from Canada's only level-4 lab on July 5, CBC News has learned.

A Level 4 virology facility is a lab equipped to work with the most serious and deadly human and animal diseases. That makes the Arlington Street lab one of only a handful in North America capable of handling pathogens requiring the highest level of containment, such as Ebola.

Security access for the couple and the Chinese students was revoked, according to sources who work at the lab and do not want to be identified because they fear consequences for speaking out.

Sources say this comes several months after IT specialists for the NML entered Qiu's office after-hours and replaced her computer. Her regular trips to China also started being denied.
...
Qiu is a medical doctor from Tianjin, China, who came to Canada for graduate studies in 1996. She is still affiliated with the university there and has brought in many students over the years to help with her work....
No one from the Chinese Embassy could be reached for comment.

'Microbiology can ... involve national security'
While there are few details available, experts say this could be a case of intellectual property theft or technology leakage to China.

"The National Microbiology Laboratory would have some pretty sensitive biological research material that ... could be shared either with or without authorization with foreign countries," said Gordon Houlden, director of the University of Alberta's China Institute.

"All of this is unproven, but even microbiology, sometimes especially microbiology, can have issues that involve national security."

It's something the Canadian Security Intelligence Service has already warned about, said Leah West, who teaches national security law at Carleton's Norman Paterson School of International Affairs.

"Canada is facing threats from foreign governments seeking to steal intellectual property and that could include state-funded research," she said.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on February 25, 2020, 08:46:29 PM
https://www.foxnews.com/media/cuccinelli-coronavirus-origin-theory-dr-marc-siegel.amp (https://www.foxnews.com/media/cuccinelli-coronavirus-origin-theory-dr-marc-siegel.amp)
DHS won't rule out coronavirus lab origins: 'We are not entirely sure yet'

Department of Homeland Security (DHS) Acting Deputy Secretary Ken Cuccinelli told Fox News medical correspondent Dr. Marc Siegel Monday that the origin of the coronavirus outbreak remains virtually unknown -- and refused to rule out a startling theory that the virus may have originated in a high-security biochemical lab in Wuhan, China.

"Our colleagues at CDC [Centers for Disease Control and Prevention] and NIH [National Institutes of Health] on the task force have made it very clear. We don't yet know the origin of this particular virus,"
...
"We are not entirely sure how this one started yet," he continued. "There is a biological facility in the ... province that people worry about. But I will say the reading that I have done of medical professionals suggest that the structure of the virus seems unlikely to have been man-made"
...
"Does that mean it rules it out?" Cuccinelli added, "No, not absolutely."
...
"We know it didn't originate in the Wuhan food market based on the study of Chinese scientists ... I'm not saying where it started, I don't know. We don't know because the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) won't open up to international experts," Cotton said on "The Story." "That's what we need to do so they can get to the bottom of where the virus originated and hopefully can effect a diagnostic test and vaccine for it."
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: FreeLancer on February 25, 2020, 10:42:43 PM

Department of Homeland Security (DHS) Acting Deputy Secretary Ken Cuccinelli told Fox News medical correspondent Dr. Marc Siegel


How did we wind up with so much "Acting" leadership?
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on February 29, 2020, 06:31:56 AM
How did we wind up with so much "Acting" leadership?

It is called "drain the swamp".  It will take decades to get them all exited and replaced with decent people.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: LvsChant on February 29, 2020, 03:42:47 PM
One thing I've been pondering... in the other thread about this virus, FreeLancer (iirc) mentioned that this virus seems to hit ethnic Chinese harder than some other groups. If they were developing a bioweapon to use on others and it got loose accidentally, they weren't very good at it.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on February 29, 2020, 05:04:22 PM
One thing I've been pondering... in the other thread about this virus, FreeLancer (iirc) mentioned that this virus seems to hit ethnic Chinese harder than some other groups. If they were developing a bioweapon to use on others and it got loose accidentally, they weren't very good at it.

Interestingly, the Chinese military has claimed the other way.  They alleged the virus was generated in the US at UNC-Chapel Hill.  Their theory is that Wuhan Lab scientist Zhengli Shi provided a naturally occuring bat virus which was modified at UNC using the AIDS virus to experiment how it can move from bats to humans. Then the US double-crossed them and released it in China.

Here is that research:

https://www.nature.com/articles/nm.3985 (https://www.nature.com/articles/nm.3985)
A SARS-like cluster of circulating bat coronaviruses shows potential for human emergence

The emergence of severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus (SARS-CoV) and Middle East respiratory syndrome (MERS)-CoV underscores the threat of cross-species transmission events leading to outbreaks in humans. Here we examine the disease potential of a SARS-like virus, SHC014-CoV, which is currently circulating in Chinese horseshoe bat populations1. Using the SARS-CoV reverse genetics system2, we generated and characterized a chimeric virus expressing the spike of bat coronavirus SHC014 in a mouse-adapted SARS-CoV backbone.

One of few English articles on the military claim:

https://gnews.org/102795/ (https://gnews.org/102795/)
Chinese military website: Wuhan Coronavirus is manmade by the U.S.

On Feb 1, 2020, the most influential Chinese military website www.xilu.com published an article to acknowledge that the Wuhan coronavirus is manmade accusing the U.S. of creating such bioweapon against china.

http://www.xilu.com/20200201/1000010001119927_19.html (please avoid visiting Chinese Websites due to computer viruses)

According to Miles Guo, the publication of this article became a turning point in the history of mankind. It opened Pandora’s Box of the Chinese Communist Party.


Of course, it is much more likely that the Wuhan lab release was accidental.  So it is likely the military story is internal targetted propoganda to shed blame from the Wuhan labs.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on March 01, 2020, 08:15:38 AM
Confirms rumors that national communist party stopped local authority reports.  These were the early ones which suggested a lab connection.

https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Coronavirus/China-penalizes-400-local-officials-as-public-ire-mounts (https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Coronavirus/China-penalizes-400-local-officials-as-public-ire-mounts)
China penalizes 400 local officials as public ire mounts
Party acknowledges missteps in handling coronavirus


The Chinese Communist Party has acknowledged "shortcomings" in the response to the coronavirus and has punished hundreds of local officials in a bid to defuse public anger toward the party for failing to nip the outbreak in the bud.
...

Wuhan Mayor Zhou Xianwang acknowledged in a Jan. 27 interview on state-run China Central Television that local authorities had "failed to disclose relevant information in a timely manner."

But Zhou hinted that the central government also bore some responsibility. "As a local government, we can only disclose information after being authorized," he said.

Wuhan party chief Ma Guoqiang appeared on CCTV on Friday at what is believed to have been the direction of the party's Publicity Department, which oversees the station. "I feel ashamed of myself," he said. "If we had taken strong measures earlier, the situation would be much better."
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on March 02, 2020, 07:35:54 AM
https://londonlovesbusiness.com/scientist-says-covid-19-is-man-made-and-was-released-from-wuhan-lab/ (https://londonlovesbusiness.com/scientist-says-covid-19-is-man-made-and-was-released-from-wuhan-lab/)
Scientist says Covid-19 is man made and was released from Wuhan lab

A Taiwanese scientist has claimed Chinese microbiologists probably created coronavirus in Wuhan, China.

Based on the virus unusual structure it is most likely “man made” and there is a theory coronavirus was somehow leaked or released from the Institute of Virology in Wuhan China, said Professor Fang Chi-tai from the National Taiwan University (NTU).

Professor Fang said China’s track record with safety standards and laboratory management has been questioned in the past.

The Professor claims it was very possible that the Wuhan Chinese scientists created the deadly virus by simply adding four amino acids to an existing bat virus, which therefore makes it much easier to transmit to people.

Professor Fang added, “The mutations found in the novel coronavirus are unusual in an academic sense.

“It is indeed possible that it is a man-made product.

“From an academic point of view, it is indeed possible that the amino acids were added to COVID-19 in the lab by humans.”
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: Mr. Bill on March 02, 2020, 12:46:54 PM
Scientist says Covid-19 is man made and was released from Wuhan lab

Here is a longer version of what he had to say:

Taiwan News, 2/24/20: Taiwanese professor says Wuhan coronavirus likely man-made (https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3880475)

Needless to say, his opinion is not universally shared among virus researchers.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: Mr. Bill on March 02, 2020, 01:23:20 PM
Here's a blog post that explains a lot of virus technical info in (relatively) plain English:

Ricki Lewis, 2/20/20: COVID-19 Vaccine Will Close in on the Spikes  (https://blogs.plos.org/dnascience/2020/02/20/covid-19-vaccine-will-close-in-on-the-spikes/)

The discussion here is about how a virus works, what its structure is, and how that info can be used to design a vaccine.  But there's also a bit about the possible origin of the virus:

Quote
...COVID-19 and the SARS-CoV have a common ancestor, a bat coronavirus. But COVID-19 is actually closer to the bat virus, sharing 96% of its genome sequence, compared to about 86% with SARS-CoV. And muddying the waters further, COVID-19’s spike gene shares a 39-base insertion with a type of soldierfish that swims in the South China Sea.

Somehow, the virus that evolved into COVID-19 may have started in a bat in 2013 and gotten into fish that ended up in the Wuhan Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market at the epicenter of the pandemic. ...

Yet again, this comes from a non-peer-reviewed preprint that was revised by the authors after another researcher pointed out that the "shared 39-base insertion" is not a perfect duplicate of the fish genome, and is most likely a statistical fluke.  Lots of people have been comparing the COVID-19 genome to huge genome libraries -- they find a chance similarity, release a pre-print, and get slapped down for using an analysis tool without a deep understanding of the underlying statistics.

I think that Fang Chi-tai's "adding four amino acids" claim is similar.  Four amino acids represents only 12 bases ("letters" in the RNA/DNA code).  Putting it in computer terms, that's 24 bits or 3 bytes of data.  Given how viruses work, it's quite a jump to look at 3 bytes and take that as proof of human-directed genetic engineering.  Viruses genetically engineer themselves continuously.  Another quote from the blog post:

Quote
...The confusion arises from the promiscuity of RNA viruses. Over the ages, they swap genetic material, mutate, and lose and gain pieces of themselves. The result is a constant spawning of patchwork genomes that under some circumstances harm the host species. And our bodies help it all along, sneezing, oozing, bleeding, or crapping out zillions of viruses before either expiring or recovering. ...
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on March 02, 2020, 02:19:19 PM
Wuhan Lab in question hid from public they had full sequencing of virus and has now pursued patent for treatment using a US firm's drug.

https://www.sixthtone.com/news/1005169/wuhans-much-maligned-virology-institute-seeks-patent-on-us-drug (https://www.sixthtone.com/news/1005169/wuhans-much-maligned-virology-institute-seeks-patent-on-us-drug)
Wuhan’s Much-Maligned Virology Institute Seeks Patent on US Drug
After being criticized for inaction early in the coronavirus epidemic, China’s top virus lab is under fire for rushing to secure the usage patent for a drug it didn’t develop.


On Chinese social media, some people view the virology institute’s move as a callous cash grab after it failed to warn and protect the people of Wuhan.

“(The institute) is slow at figuring out whether the virus is contagious but pretty fast at filing patent applications,” wrote one user on microblogging platform Weibo. “The Wuhan Institute of Virology can take care of everything except sounding the alarm and treating disease,” wrote another.

The virology institute filed the remdesivir usage patent on Jan. 21 — several days before the drug was used to relieve symptoms in a coronavirus patient in the U.S., and two weeks before clinical trials began in Wuhan on Feb. 3.
...
If the usage patent application is approved, Gilead may not be able to sell its own drug for the purpose of treating the novel coronavirus without the institute’s consent, Xia said
...
The reputation of the Wuhan Institute of Virology has taken a few hits since news of the outbreak first started circulating in early January. As the number of confirmed cases began to rise each day, resentment simmered on Chinese social media, with many criticizing the institute for not responding appropriately and promptly to the outbreak.

“I don’t think (the institute) did its due diligence,” said Huang Yanzhong, a global health expert specializing in China at the Council on Foreign Relations in New York.
...
To Huang, however, the virology institute’s handling of the current crisis has been a letdown.

“The lab specializes in virus research and is located at the epicenter — yet it seems to me that the Chinese Academy of Medical Sciences, the Chinese CDC, and the Academy of Military Medical Sciences did most of the work in sequencing the coronavirus’ genome,” Huang told Sixth Tone.

In a statement released Jan. 29, the Wuhan Institute of Virology said it had sequenced the entire genome of the novel coronavirus on Jan. 2. But the Chinese public was not informed of the successful sequencing until Jan. 10, when a research group led by scientists from the Shanghai Public Health Clinical Center and Fudan University published their data.
...
stories about whether the coronavirus was engineered and leaked by Shi Zhengli, a coronavirus specialist at the institute, have gained traction on Chinese social media. Some netizens point to a 2015 study in which Shi and her team described how they had isolated a coronavirus found in bats and made it infectious to humans by manipulating a key protein.
...
In addition to criticism of the virology institute itself, people have also expressed doubts about the competency of its leader.

Several articles widely circulated on social app WeChat have accused Wang Yanyi, the institute’s director-general, of having a weak academic background and ascending to her post through nepotism at a relatively young age. Some suspect Wang was only picked to lead the institute because of her husband, who is an academician with the Chinese Academy of Sciences and the virology institute’s former director.
...
“What we are feeling now — disoriented and torn apart — is all because of the nepotism that put Wang where she is now,” one of the WeChat articles said.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on March 02, 2020, 02:54:51 PM
Here's a blog post that explains a lot of virus technical info in (relatively) plain English:

Ricki Lewis, 2/20/20: COVID-19 Vaccine Will Close in on the Spikes  (https://blogs.plos.org/dnascience/2020/02/20/covid-19-vaccine-will-close-in-on-the-spikes/)

The discussion here is about how a virus works, what its structure is, and how that info can be used to design a vaccine.  But there's also a bit about the possible origin of the virus:

Yet again, this comes from a non-peer-reviewed preprint that was revised by the authors after another researcher pointed out that the "shared 39-base insertion" is not a perfect duplicate of the fish genome, and is most likely a statistical fluke.  Lots of people have been comparing the COVID-19 genome to huge genome libraries -- they find a chance similarity, release a pre-print, and get slapped down for using an analysis tool without a deep understanding of the underlying statistics.

I think that Fang Chi-tai's "adding four amino acids" claim is similar.  Four amino acids represents only 12 bases ("letters" in the RNA/DNA code).  Putting it in computer terms, that's 24 bits or 3 bytes of data.  Given how viruses work, it's quite a jump to look at 3 bytes and take that as proof of human-directed genetic engineering.  Viruses genetically engineer themselves continuously.  Another quote from the blog post:

It is hard to dismiss these facts:

1. There has been no identified intermediary infected animal found.  Tests of alleged snakes, ant-eaters, and now fish have produced no legitimate contender
2. The lab did engineer a bat coronavirus to specifically infect humans so as to understand how such viruses move from animals to humans.  The source virus is the closest known match.  The modified virus has not been released for comparison.
3. There were long-standing, grave concerns by scientists regarding the ability of the lab to contain the viruses they stored.
4. There were several documented incidents at the lab where workers with the bats were exposed and had to be quarantined.  There were also several documented instances of experimental animals being released at other labs, including into food markets.
5. The identified patient zero worked at the lab and had no connection with the market.  This person has subsequently vanished from public sight.
6. The government in response to the outbreak has clamped down on lab safety, calling it a matter of national security.
7. Several independent teams of scientists have come forward suggesting a lab leak was the most likely source of outbreak. Every agency has stated that a lab leak can not be ruled out at this time.

Net, the circumstantial evidence of lab connection continues to firm.  The pressure by the public to release the data from the lab studies will continue to grow despite efforts to quash it.    The people deserve full transparency into the lab's operation.  Is it not suspicious that the lab refuses to release the data that would allegedly exonerate them?  Are we really to believe they have not compared their stored viruses to the outbreak one, especially given that that is there fundamental job?
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: Morning Sunshine on March 02, 2020, 06:33:58 PM
A Taiwanese scientist has claimed Chinese microbiologists probably created coronavirus in Wuhan, China.


I have said before I do not trust China.  But I also take anything said about China by the Taiwanese with a lot of distrust.  There is a lot of bad blood there, and it is in Taiwan's best interest to have China distrusted and a pariah on the world stage
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on March 02, 2020, 07:31:18 PM

I have said before I do not trust China.  But I also take anything said about China by the Taiwanese with a lot of distrust.  There is a lot of bad blood there, and it is in Taiwan's best interest to have China distrusted and a pariah on the world stage

How about the Israeli, Indian, South Korean, etc scientists who have all put forward the same fact informed opinion?  And the vast majority of US scientists who said they will not rule it out despite all the media criticism?

Of course, in the end it doesn't matter who we trust/not.  The facts listed above are not debatable and they clearly point towards the lab.  There is zero evidence for any alternative hypothesis at this point. 

It is funny.  I remember when Chernobyl happened and we could clearly see the radioactive particles spread around the world.  Yet there were those who claimed for political reasons it wasnt coming from the reactor.  This has exactly the same feel.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: Mr. Bill on March 02, 2020, 08:07:05 PM
There are two separate theories here, and I think they're gettiong overlapped when they shouldn't be.  One theory is that the virus was released from the lab.  The other theory is that the virus was created at the lab (or at some other lab).

If the first is true, that doesn't prove the second.  I don't have a big problem believing that the lab could have released the virus through negligence.  There's no evidence for this yet, other than circumstantial, but there's no evidence against it either, and it's plausible.

But, separately, there are a whole lot of accusations that somebody genetically engineered this virus.  Who?  This is buried in prejudices and disinformation.  Maybe the Chinese were doing legit research, maybe they were designing a bioweapon, maybe the Americans engineered it to attach Chinese preferentially, maybe Bill Gates and George Soros did it to depopulate the planet.  I've heard all of these, but I've heard no reliable evidence that any of them are true.  The "proof" that the virus was engineered keeps evaporating under scrutiny, just like the "proof" that it passed through snakes or pangolins or fish.  People look at a nucleotide sequence or an amino acid sequence, and say "OMG! What are the chances of THAT happening randomly?" -- and in fact they don't understand the statistics and don't know the chances of it happening randomly, but they go ahead and post a preprint or make a claim at a conference based on "OMG" rather than statistics.

Not saying it didn't happen.  But until we get some real information -- which may never happen if the perpetrators succeed with covering it up -- I'm not willing to accept it as proven, or even likely.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on March 02, 2020, 08:36:47 PM
There are two separate theories here, and I think they're gettiong overlapped when they shouldn't be.  One theory is that the virus was released from the lab.  The other theory is that the virus was created at the lab (or at some other lab).

True.

But, separately, there are a whole lot of accusations that somebody genetically engineered this virus.  Who?  This is buried in prejudices and disinformation.

Not true, it isnt based on disinformation.  It is based on knowledge that the scientists at the lab in question DID modify naturally occuring bat Coronavirus so that it could infect humans.  It is incontrovertibly true.  We have the published studies like this:

https://www.nature.com/articles/nm.3985 (https://www.nature.com/articles/nm.3985)
A SARS-like cluster of circulating bat coronaviruses shows potential for human emergence

Zhengli-Li Shi
Key Laboratory of Special Pathogens and Biosafety, Wuhan Institute of Virology, Chinese Academy of Sciences, Wuhan, China


Here we examine the disease potential of a SARS-like virus, SHC014-CoV, which is currently circulating in Chinese horseshoe bat populations1. Using the SARS-CoV reverse genetics system2, we generated and characterized a chimeric virus expressing the spike of bat coronavirus SHC014 in a mouse-adapted SARS-CoV backbone.
...
However, sequence data alone provides minimal insights to identify and prepare for future prepandemic viruses. Therefore, to examine the emergence potential (that is, the potential to infect humans) of circulating bat CoVs, we built a chimeric virus encoding a novel, zoonotic CoV spike protein—from the RsSHC014-CoV sequence that was isolated from Chinese horseshoe bats1—in the context of the SARS-CoV mouse-adapted backbone. The hybrid virus allowed us to evaluate the ability of the novel spike protein to cause disease independently of other necessary adaptive mutations in its natural backbone. Using this approach, we characterized CoV infection mediated by the SHC014 spike protein in primary human airway cells and in vivo, and tested the efficacy of available immune therapeutics against SHC014-CoV. Together, the strategy translates metagenomics data to help predict and prepare for future emergent viruses.


And we also know that there have been numerous incidents at the Wuhan lab and others.

There is also a third level is that this was developed as a bio-weapon.  That is the most speculative. But, again, it isnt just prejudice.  There is absolute evidence that China has a covert bio-weapon program.  So far there isnt evidence of this link like the other two levels.


Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: Mr. Bill on March 02, 2020, 09:12:07 PM
Okay, that's a long read and I'll have to study it tomorrow.  I believe they're saying that they made a modified bat coronavirus that could infect mice, not humans.  What further experiments they did after this one, I don't know.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on March 02, 2020, 09:42:42 PM
Okay, that's a long read and I'll have to study it tomorrow.  I believe they're saying that they made a modified bat coronavirus that could infect mice, not humans.  What further experiments they did after this one, I don't know.

They were human mouse replicants and human lung cultures (HAE).  HAE stands for Human Airway Epithelial cultures.  They effectively mimic the human bronchial environment to allow for cultivation of human respiratory viral pathogens such as coronavirus. The goal of the experiments using HAE is to determine propagation and identification of the viruses.

And they very well knew the dangers involved in it spreading to lab workers.

Human lungs for HAE cultures were procured under University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Institutional Review Board–approved protocols. HAE cultures represent highly differentiated human airway epithelium containing ciliated and non-ciliated epithelial cells as well as goblet cells. The cultures are also grown on an air-liquid interface for several weeks before use, as previously described26. Briefly, cells were washed with PBS and inoculated with virus or mock-diluted in PBS for 40 min at 37 °C. After inoculation, cells were washed three times and fresh medium was added to signify time '0'. Three or more biological replicates were harvested at each described time point. No blinding was used in any sample collections nor were samples randomized. All virus cultivation was performed in a biosafety level (BSL) 3 laboratory with redundant fans in the biosafety cabinets, as described previously by our group2. All personnel wore powered air purifying respirators (Breathe Easy, 3M) with Tyvek suits, aprons and booties and were double-gloved.

Their goal was to prove that bat coronaviruses could infect humans by direct evolution without going through other animal intermidiaries. 

Coronaviruses
(https://media.springernature.com/full/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1038%2Fnm.3985/MediaObjects/41591_2015_Article_BFnm3985_Fig4_HTML.jpg?as=webp)

They did this through direct genetic editing of the bat coronaviruses.  Needless to say, they suceeded brilliantly in creating such viruses.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: surfivor on March 03, 2020, 06:00:02 AM
They were human mouse replicants and human lung cultures (HAE).  HAE stands for Human Airway Epithelial cultures.  They effectively mimic the human bronchial environment to allow for cultivation of human respiratory viral pathogens such as coronavirus. The goal of the experiments using HAE is to determine propagation and identification of the viruses.

And they very well knew the dangers involved in it spreading to lab workers.

Human lungs for HAE cultures were procured under University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Institutional Review Board–approved protocols. HAE cultures represent highly differentiated human airway epithelium containing ciliated and non-ciliated epithelial cells as well as goblet cells. The cultures are also grown on an air-liquid interface for several weeks before use, as previously described26. Briefly, cells were washed with PBS and inoculated with virus or mock-diluted in PBS for 40 min at 37 °C. After inoculation, cells were washed three times and fresh medium was added to signify time '0'. Three or more biological replicates were harvested at each described time point. No blinding was used in any sample collections nor were samples randomized. All virus cultivation was performed in a biosafety level (BSL) 3 laboratory with redundant fans in the biosafety cabinets, as described previously by our group2. All personnel wore powered air purifying respirators (Breathe Easy, 3M) with Tyvek suits, aprons and booties and were double-gloved.

Their goal was to prove that bat coronaviruses could infect humans by direct evolution without going through other animal intermidiaries. 

Coronaviruses
(https://media.springernature.com/full/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1038%2Fnm.3985/MediaObjects/41591_2015_Article_BFnm3985_Fig4_HTML.jpg?as=webp)

They did this through direct genetic editing of the bat coronaviruses.  Needless to say, they suceeded brilliantly in creating such viruses.

With regards to chapel hill in NC, I heard that a Chinese scientist was involved in work there and took the viruses developed at that college back to China. The college also was given money from China for the technology and assistance
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on March 03, 2020, 06:25:10 AM
With regards to chapel hill in NC, I heard that a Chinese scientist was involved in work there and took the viruses developed at that college back to China. The college also was given money from China for the technology and assistance

The main chinese scientist involved is Zhengli Shi.  She is the number one expert on bat coronaviruses in the world.  Her team collects the bat viruses and maintains the bats at the Wuhan lab.  It is also her team that has had the published lab incidents.  She is also the one pushing the seafood market theory while sinultaneously holding back the info on the viruses.

She is a persona non grata throughout China.  She is nicknamed the "she-devil" by the people who vastly believe she is responsible for the outbreak.  She routinely calls the people of China barbarians and other derogatory terms. Her recent move to patent the treatments for coronavirus (that she herself didn't even create) so as to profit off the epidemic has really upset the people there.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: Mr. Bill on March 03, 2020, 11:19:04 AM
Still digesting this paper, and I'm sorry I didn't look at it sooner, because it's certainly relevant to the virus origin.

One central issue: Where did the lab work take place?  The paper has 15 authors.  12 are from the US, 2 from the Wuhan lab in China, and 1 from Switzerland.  The Wuhan authors are #9 and #14, so they weren't leading the study.  The work they did is listed at the end of the paper:

Quote
... X.-Y.G. performed pseudotyping experiments; ... Z.-L.S. provided SHC014 spike sequences and plasmids...

So what are "pseudotyping experiments"?  Wikipedia has a definition (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudotyping):

Quote
Pseudotyping is the process of producing viruses or viral vectors in combination with foreign viral envelope proteins. The result is a pseudotyped virus particle. With this method, the foreign viral envelope proteins can be used to alter host tropism or an increased/decreased stability of the virus particles. Pseudotyped particles do not carry the genetic material to produce additional viral envelope proteins, so the phenotypic changes cannot be passed on to progeny viral particles.

So this is a safety feature.  Instead of genetically engineering the virus, you build the virus with proteins that aren't in its genetic code.

What does this tell us?


What else do we know from this paper?


I may have more comments after I study the paper further.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on March 03, 2020, 12:10:51 PM

So what are "pseudotyping experiments"?  Wikipedia has a definition (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudotyping):

So this is a safety feature.  Instead of genetically engineering the virus, you build the virus with proteins that aren't in its genetic code.

What does this tell us?

  • For this specific paper from 2015, the Wuhan lab didn't produce genetically engineered viruses.  That work was done in the US.


Despite predictions from both structure-based modeling and pseudotyping experiments, SHC014-MA15 was viable and replicated to high titers in Vero cells (Supplementary Fig. 2b). Similarly to SARS, SHC014-MA15 also required a functional ACE2 molecule for entry and could use human, civet and bat ACE2 orthologs (Supplementary Fig. 2c,d). To test the ability of the SHC014 spike to mediate infection of the human airway, we examined the sensitivity of the human epithelial airway cell line Calu-3 2B4 (ref. 9) to infection and found robust SHC014-MA15 replication, comparable to that of SARS-CoV Urbani (Fig. 1c). To extend these findings, primary human airway epithelial (HAE) cultures were infected and showed robust replication of both viruses (Fig. 1d). Together, the data confirm the ability of viruses with the SHC014 spike to infect human airway cells and underscore the potential threat of cross-species transmission of SHC014-CoV.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on March 03, 2020, 12:22:26 PM

  • But now we have an example of the sort of experiments that Wuhan researchers were participating in, so it's possible they did make genetically engineered viruses in more recent research.  (I haven't gone searching for more recent papers to see whether this is true.)

https://www.efreenews.com/a/the-mysterious-origin-of-the-wuhan-coronavirus-and-the-call-for-chinese-authorities-to-release-animal-sample-testing-data (https://www.efreenews.com/a/the-mysterious-origin-of-the-wuhan-coronavirus-and-the-call-for-chinese-authorities-to-release-animal-sample-testing-data)

To their surprise, the chimeric virus (SHC014-MA15) can use SHC014 spike to bind to human ACE2 receptor and enter human cells. SHC014-MA15 can also cause disease in mice and cause death as well. Existing vaccines to SARS cannot protect animals from SHC014-MA15 infection. Therefore, these chimeric virus studies can lead to the generation of more pathogenic, more deadly CoV strains in mammalian models.

Due to the U.S. government-mandated pause on the gain-of-function (GOF) studies, this international research did not proceed further at that time. However, there is no evidence that Shi’s group in China stopped any further study on the track of introducing GOF mutations on the CoV. And it is clear that Shi’s group already mastered the reverse-engineering technology that is sufficient to introduce mutation in current SARS-CoV or SARS-Like CoV to create mutant infectious coronavirus.

Interestingly, Shi’s group published on bioRxiv on Jan. 23, 2020 that a new bat coronavirus that they detected in Yunnan, named Bat COv RaTG13, shares 96.2 percent overall genome sequence identity with 2019-nCoV. However, this virus was never mentioned or published in their research before. (
 
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.01.22.914952v1.full.pdf

In the sequence information provided by them in the supplemental material and method section, 3 sequences are shared between the 2019-nCoV they collected and the RATG13 virus but not in any of the other SARS or Bat SARS-Like CoV families in the paper listed. The 3 sequences are located close to N terminus of the spike protein, they are GTNGTKR, NNKSWM, RSYLTPGD.


Chimeric Virus: 
A chimera virus is defined by the Center for Veterinary Biologics as a "new hybrid microorganism created by joining nucleic acid fragments from two or more different microorganisms in which each of at least two of the fragments contain essential genes necessary for replication." The term chimera already referred to an individual organism whose body contained cell populations from different zygotes or an organism that developed from portions of different embryos.[/list]
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on March 03, 2020, 07:53:03 PM
Chinese scientists at Nankai University confirm earlier findings of Indian scientists regarding the HIV like features.  This is consistant with the lab release hypothesis.  It will be interesting if they too are forced to retract..

http://chinaxiv.org/abs/202002.00004 (http://chinaxiv.org/abs/202002.00004)
Wuhan 2019 Coronavirus S protein may have Furin protease cleavage sites

This mutation has the potential to enhance the efficiency of 2019-nCoV infecting cells, which in turn makes it significantly more aggressive than SARS coronavirus. Due to this mutation, the packaging mechanism of 2019 coronavirus will also be different from most other Beta coronaviruses such as SARS, and may be the same as the packaging mechanisms of murine hepatitis coronavirus, HIV, Ebola virus and some avian influenza viruses
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: Mr. Bill on March 03, 2020, 08:18:56 PM
This is consistant with the lab release hypothesis.

That's not what they say in the abstract.  Here's Google Translate's version (https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=zh-CN&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fchinaxiv.org%2Fabs%2F202002.00004) of the whole thing:

Quote
Abstract: In December 2019, Wuhan, China reported pneumonia caused by the 2019 novel Coronavirus (2019-nCoV). Based on genomic information, our previous results showed that although 2019-nCoV and SARS coronavirus both belong to the Beta Coronavirus B subgroup (BB coronavirus), the two viruses are very different, and this result is consistent with the clinical symptoms of the two. Previous studies have also found that BB coronaviruses have a large number of variable translations, and revealed the characteristics of BB coronaviruses that mutate quickly and have high diversity at the molecular level. An important mutation in the BB coronavirus S protein was reported for the first time in this study. This mutation provided 2019-nCoV with a site for Furin protease cleavage, which is all other BB coronavirus except mouse hepatitis coronavirus (Including SARS and SARS-like coronavirus). This mutation has the potential to enhance the efficiency of 2019-nCoV infecting cells, which in turn makes it significantly more aggressive than SARS coronavirus. Due to this mutation, the packaging mechanism of 2019 coronavirus will also be different from most other Beta coronaviruses such as SARS, and may be the same as the packaging mechanisms of murine hepatitis coronavirus, HIV, Ebola virus and some avian influenza viruses. As an unexpected discovery, some avian influenza viruses can also obtain Furin protease cleavage sites through mutations. Subsequent research on this important mutation will lay the foundation for revealing the reasons for the strong transmission of 2019-nCoV, as well as for the development of drugs, antibodies and vaccines.

They're saying it's a mutation, consistent with the high mutation rate of other BB coronaviruses.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on March 03, 2020, 08:44:11 PM
That's not what they say in the abstract.  Here's Google Translate's version (https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=zh-CN&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fchinaxiv.org%2Fabs%2F202002.00004) of the whole thing:

They're saying it's a mutation, consistent with the high mutation rate of other BB coronaviruses.

I posted it above.  That is the translation.  It is 100% in alignment with Indian scientist findings.  Exactly same finding which was criticized.  It wasnt an experimental error as promoted by media.  It is real.

Actually high mutation rates are a limiting factor on viruses.  They lead to high extinction rates in the wild.  Labs  actually work to keep certain strains alive by eliminating competition.  And these are specifically the ones of interest to the Wuhan lab.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on March 04, 2020, 08:33:52 AM
As international teams of scientists zero in on Wuhan lab, China's communist spokesperson denies disease originated in China.  Looks like they are gearing up to go with the foreign bioweapon conspiracy angle.

http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2020-03/04/c_138843709.htm (http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2020-03/04/c_138843709.htm)
Calling novel coronavirus "China virus" extremely irresponsible: FM spokesperson

Chinese Foreign Ministry Spokesperson Zhao Lijian on Wednesday slammed some media organizations that had called the novel coronavirus "China virus," saying the wording was "extremely irresponsible."
...
He also quoted renowned respiratory expert Zhong Nanshan as saying that the epidemic first appeared in China but did not necessarily originate from China.

"What we should oppose is 'information virus' or 'political virus'," Zhao said, adding that those media organizations' ill intentions to use the "China virus" phrase were to have China blamed for having created the epidemic.


Here is video with full statement where he says that it is of unknown origin:

https://twitter.com/MFA_China/status/1235160704677642240 (https://twitter.com/MFA_China/status/1235160704677642240)
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on March 04, 2020, 05:56:52 PM
China's top bioweapons general and her team reportedly injected themselves with untested Covid-19 vaccine to prove loyalty to PLA and to redeem Wuhan lab believed to have leaked virus.  I bet there will be a lot fewer leaks under a "you leak, you test" policy.

https://amp.ibtimes.sg/who-chen-wei-top-chinese-epidemiologist-wuhan-lab-injects-untested-coronavirus-vaccine-prove-40468 (https://amp.ibtimes.sg/who-chen-wei-top-chinese-epidemiologist-wuhan-lab-injects-untested-coronavirus-vaccine-prove-40468)
Top Chinese epidemiologist from Wuhan lab injects untested coronavirus vaccine to prove loyalty to PLA

Chen Wei, a leading Chinese epidemiologist and a major-general in China's People's Liberation Army, has created quite a stir on Weibo by her radical approach.

Major General Wei it is reported that injected herself and her six-member team with an untested coronavirus vaccine, which many on the Internet see as a move to prove loyalty to the People's Liberation Army.
...
Chen's team has achieved key progress in developing a vaccine to the novel coronavirus, the report said.
...
PLA officials later deleted the images from Weibo after it emerged that the vaccine was not even tested on animals but was directly injected on the researchers without a trial.

Besides wanting to prove loyalty to PLA and show to the world how confident China is about the vaccine, there are other theories on why Major General Wei injected the vaccine without trial.

There have been speculations since the beginning of the coronavirus outbreak that the COVID 19 was a bioengineered strain or a man-made virus that had escaped out of the Wuhan lab.

And it was in this same lab Major General Wei was dispatched one month back to redeem the country.


(https://images.ladbible.com/thumbnail?type=webp&url=http://beta.ems.ladbiblegroup.com/s3/content/0e402ba85e607c1814dfce159f47fee7.png&quality=70&width=720)

(https://images.ladbible.com/thumbnail?type=webp&url=http://beta.ems.ladbiblegroup.com/s3/content/293d3b525e607c1814dfadc53e5bae28.jpg&quality=70&width=648)
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on March 05, 2020, 05:55:13 AM
LOL.  They are threading the needle.  We aren't saying it happened in Wuhan (please China, let our reporters back in) but we really have to stop these accidents from continuing to happen...

https://www.wsj.com/articles/coronavirus-epidemic-draws-scrutiny-to-labs-handling-deadly-pathogens-11583349777 (https://www.wsj.com/articles/coronavirus-epidemic-draws-scrutiny-to-labs-handling-deadly-pathogens-11583349777)
Coronavirus Epidemic Draws Scrutiny to Labs Handling Deadly Pathogens
Risk of accidents or terrorism grows as more countries handle exotic microbes, say biosafety experts


But biosafety experts agree that as more countries handle deadly and exotic microbes at containment labs like the one in Wuhan, risks of accidents or terrorism are growing. In a rush to open labs that scientists say can appear motivated by national pride, governments on every major continent now handle dangerous pathogens that were once confined to a handful of institutions like the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

“The release of pathogenic microorganisms from high-containment laboratories, such as the pandemic CoV-19, seems more likely in countries without current, historically solidified standards or legislation,” says Thomas Binz, who leads biosafety efforts at Switzerland’s Federal Office of Public Health.
...
Despite careful protocols, accidents happen. The CDC says that in 2014, tubes being used in a study of live Ebola virus in its Atlanta BSL-4 facility got mixed up and the wrong ones were mistakenly transferred to a less secure lab, though no one got sick.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on March 05, 2020, 06:48:34 AM
Good summary of timing.

https://web.archive.org/web/20200224100237/https://www.news-medical.net/news/20200224/Coronavirus-may-have-leaked-from-Chinas-highest-biosafety-lab-next-door-to-market.aspx (https://web.archive.org/web/20200224100237/https://www.news-medical.net/news/20200224/Coronavirus-may-have-leaked-from-Chinas-highest-biosafety-lab-next-door-to-market.aspx)
Coronavirus may have leaked from China's highest biosafety lab next door to market

Now, a team of scientists from Xishuangbanna Tropical Botanical Garden of Chinese Academy of Sciences, South China Agricultural University, and Chinese Institute for Brain Research wrote in a paper published on ChinaXiv, about an alternative source of the coronavirus that is currently spreading across the globe.

The scientists say they have found genomic evidence that the seafood market is not the actual source of the outbreak. Instead, they point the source of the virus outbreak to a laboratory that studies potent viruses.

The Wuhan Virology Institute, which is just a few yards away from the seafood market, researches some of the world's most dangerous pathogens. It is China's first Biosafety Level 4 laboratory, the highest security level needed to isolate dangerous biological agents in an enclosed facility.

The team also found that while the virus had spread in the seafood market in Wuhan, there had also been two major population expansions, dated Dec. 8 and Jan. 6. Further, scientists believe that the virus originated outside the market, but the crowded market had boosted the circulation of the coronavirus, spreading it to the whole city by December 2019.

The first case manifesting symptoms emerged on Dec. 8, and most of the following cases were linked to the seafood market. On Jan. 1, the seafood market was closed, but the virus had already spread in the city, suggesting that the outbreak has started through human-to-human transmission by late November.

Warning about the new virus
“The study concerning whether the Huanan market is the only birthplace of SARS-CoV-2 is of great significance for finding its source and determining the intermediate host to control the epidemic and prevent it from spreading again,” the researchers said.

The researchers also said that while at the beginning of the outbreak in Hubei province and neighboring areas, China’s National Center for Disease Control and Prevention issued a level 2 emergency warning about the new outbreak on Jan. 6, the information was not widely shared. The team said if warning received more attention, the number of cases in China, and across the globe would have been reduced.

The government has locked down Wuhan city on Jan. 23, which is weeks after the outbreak has been reported. Before the residents were barred from leaving the city in fear of spreading the virus, millions have already left.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on March 06, 2020, 03:47:03 PM
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/chinas-chernobyl-communism-reason-coronavirus-so-dangerous-119066 (https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/chinas-chernobyl-communism-reason-coronavirus-so-dangerous-119066)
China's Chernobyl? Communism Is the Reason Coronavirus Is So Dangerous
China’s communist system requires sycophancy, opaqueness, and an absence of information. Combatting coronavirus requires the opposite.


Yet other parts of the epidemic are of the Chinese government’s own making. As we recently wrotein the Wall Street Journal, wartime censorship in the US and allied countries, one hundred years ago, played a major role in turning the misnamed “Spanish flu” into a worldwide pandemic that left an estimated 50 million dead around the world, including 700,000 in the US. If the coronavirus turns into a catastrophe suppression of the early bad news as part of the Communist regime’s efforts to control information will deserve much of the blame. The one-party state and cult of personality around Xi Jinping make the government, and Xi personally, not only responsible for all successes, but all failures as well. Coronavirus risks displaying government incompetence and dishonesty, and thus incentivizes the regime to cover up the scale of the crisis. With its people and the media already muzzled, there is no counterweight to hold the government to account.
...
In a kind of self‑parody, the governor of Hubei where Wuhan is located misspoke twice about the province’s annual mask production capacity. First saying it was 10.8 billion, then correcting himself to say 1.8 billion. Finally admitting it was only 1.08 million, or less than 10 percent of Wuhan’s population. He’s become a symbol of incompetence and the public is furious. 

The fact that Wuhan is home to China’s advanced virus research laboratory known as the Wuhan Institute of Virology, which does some classified work for the Chinese military, has predictably generated speculation that the novel Corona virus might have somehow leaked out of that institute.

Were that in fact the case, it would recall the experience of the 1979 anthrax outbreak in Sverdlovsk, in the Soviet Union, when anthrax spores leaked from a Soviet biological weapons facility, killing at least 64 people. Soviet authorities covered up the incident until 1992 when Boris Yeltsin, as President of Russia and former Party boss of Sverdlovsk, acknowledged the truth about the outbreak. A team of Western scientists, headed by Harvard’s Matthew Meselson, who in 1986 had initially endorsed the official line, were then allowed to interview affected families and health workers. They concluded that the dispersal of the anthrax spores resulted from the failure to replacea filter on an exhaust at the facility. Had the wind blown in a different direction, hundreds of thousands could have been exposed to the pathogen. In such circumstances, the reluctance of authorities to acknowledge the truth become even stronger, but so does the need for transparency to deal with the outbreak.
...
China’s communist system requires sycophancy, opaqueness, and an absence of information. Combatting coronavirus requires the opposite. The Chinese communist system may have made the coronavirus a far greater tragedy than it should have been.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on March 06, 2020, 04:24:00 PM
Chinese lab which went against authorities to release covid-19 sequence to world scientists in race for treatment closed without explanation.  Sequence released was also the one which traced origin to Wuhan Virology lab supporting lab release theory.

http://www.europe-solidaire.org/spip.php?article52232 (http://www.europe-solidaire.org/spip.php?article52232)
Chinese laboratory that first shared coronavirus genome with world ordered to close for ‘rectification’, hindering its Covid-19 research

No reason was given for the closure of Shanghai facility, which released information about the virus ahead of authorities

• One source at the laboratory said the closure has hampered scientists’ research when they should be ‘racing against the clock’

The Shanghai laboratory where researchers published the world’s first genome sequence of the deadly coronavirus that causes Covid-19 has been shut down.

The laboratory at the Shanghai Public Health Clinical Centre was ordered to close for “rectification” on January 12, a day after Professor Zhang Yongzhen’s team published the genome sequence on open platforms. It closed temporarily the following day.

The release of the data helped researchers develop test kits for the virus.
“The centre was not given any specific reasons why the laboratory was closed for rectification. [We have submitted] four reports [asking for permission] to reopen but we have not received any replies,” a source with the centre said, requesting anonymity because of the matter’s sensitivity.

“The closure has greatly affected the scientists and their research when they should be racing against the clock to find the means to help put the novel coronavirus outbreak under control,” the source said.

The laboratory is a Level 3 biosafety facility, the second highest level, and passed an annual inspection by the China National Accreditation Service for Conformity Assessment on January 5. It also obtained the required credentials to conduct research on the coronavirus on January 24.

It was not clear whether the closure was related to the publishing of the sequencing data before the authorities.

The closure order was issued by the Shanghai Health Commission. Five telephone calls to officials at the commission seeking comment on the closure were not picked up. A fax sent to the commission requesting comment was not answered.
...
The lab’s closure not only affected Zhang’s research but also studies by other scientists since it is an open facility, according to another researcher with knowledge of the matter.

“There have been applications from research institutes and universities to try drugs and compare the effects of different treatment and the development of vaccines, but [all these will have] to be turned down. Closing down the laboratory also affects the studying of the virus,” the researcher said.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on March 06, 2020, 08:19:29 PM
https://youtu.be/0b5vAHEmneY (https://youtu.be/0b5vAHEmneY)
[Coronavirus Special] "Systematic Problems with China's Virus Research Labs" - Tim Trevan

As the world sees the number of infections of the #Wuhan #virus skyrocket, I interviewed #TimTrevan , founder of CHROME Biosafety and Biosecurity Consulting. He focuses on management aspects of designing and implementing a culture of safety in organizations whose work involves biological risks. We touched on his assessment of the Wuhan virus outbreak, how it compares to the SARS epidemic and the Spanish flu, and more importantly, the underlying systematic problems with #China's virus research labs.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on March 07, 2020, 10:39:47 AM
Under the massively growing evidence of the Wuhan lab release, the communist government is getting desperate to deflect.attention elsewhere via their controlled social media.  They are basically admitting virus matches that in lab but are saying it was released by US partners, not them, and that American government covered up the US cases by classifying them as common flu.  It was only the "transparent" Chinese government which released the truth that it was a new virus.  LOL.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/conspiracy-theorists-blame-the-us-for-coronavirus-china-is-happy-to-encourage-them/2020/03/05/50875458-5dc8-11ea-ac50-18701e14e06d_story.html (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/conspiracy-theorists-blame-the-us-for-coronavirus-china-is-happy-to-encourage-them/2020/03/05/50875458-5dc8-11ea-ac50-18701e14e06d_story.html)
Conspiracy theorists blame U.S. for coronavirus. China is happy to encourage them.

The United States is concealing the true scale of its coronavirus deaths. The United States should learn from China about how to respond to an epidemic. The United States was the origin of the coronavirus — and the global crisis was never China's fault.

Welcome to the Chinese Internet this week.
...
In recent days, run-of-the-mill mockery of the White House has taken a darker turn as the Chinese Internet became inundated by the theory, subtly stoked by the Chinese government, that the coronavirus originated in the United States. The U.S. government, one version of the theory goes, has been covering up mounting cases, and perhaps thousands of deaths, by classifying them as regular flu.
...
“Go on WeChat, go on Weibo, look on Baidu search, and it’s full of ‘look at all the other countries getting sick,’ or ‘the virus came from the United States,’ or all different levels of conspiracy theories,” said Xiao Qiang, an adjunct professor at the University of California at Berkeley’s School of Information who studies China’s Internet.
...
Xiao said it was no coincidence that social media — the source of news for most Chinese — was awash in anti-American discourse precisely at a moment when the image of the Communist Party and its leader Xi Jinping has been badly dented after Chinese officials were found to be covering up early information about the outbreak.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on March 07, 2020, 09:34:15 PM
https://ukranews.com/en/amp/news/688287-coronavirus-spread-due-to-leak-from-secret-laboratory-in-china-danilov (https://ukranews.com/en/amp/news/688287-coronavirus-spread-due-to-leak-from-secret-laboratory-in-china-danilov)
Coronavirus Spread Due To Leak From Secret Laboratory In China – Danilov

The National Security and Defense Council's Secretary Oleksii Danilov has said that the spread of the Covid-19 coronavirus resulted from a leak from a secret laboratory in Wuhan (China).

Danilov said this in an interview with Ukrainian Radio, Ukrainian News Agency reports.

“It all came from a city there. It is Wuhan, where an F-4 closed laboratory is located. We believe that there was a leak from this laboratory ... A powerful laboratory was launched there in 2015. We believe that the leak occurred there, "he said.

According to Danilov, China has taken strong measures to localize the virus.

He stressed that China closed Wuhan because it understood what was happening in the city.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on March 09, 2020, 12:01:53 PM
Dr. Francis Boyle, one of the lead authors of the Biological Weapons Anti-Terrorism Act of 1989 chimed in with his official opinion in early February.  But note, reported fatality statistics were much higher then so his opinion on it being a bioweapon may have changed (though Wuhan Lab being source probably not).

https://greatgameindia.com/transcript-bioweapons-expert-dr-francis-boyle-on-coronavirus/ (https://greatgameindia.com/transcript-bioweapons-expert-dr-francis-boyle-on-coronavirus/)

Well, that’s a lot of questions. I guess we can take them one at a time, but if you just do a very simple Google search on “Does China have a BSL-4 laboratory?”, Wuhan comes up right away. It’s at the top of the list. That’s all with the moment this type of thing happened I began to do that. So a BSL-4 is the most serious type. And basically BSL-4 labs, we have many of them here in the United States, are used to develop offensive biological warfare weapons with DNA genetic engineering.

So it does seem to me that the Wuhan BSL-4 is the source of the coronavirus. My guess is that they were researching SARS, and they weaponize it further by giving it a gain of function properties, which means it could be more lethal.

Indeed, the latest report now is it’s a 15% fatality rate, which is more than SARS at 83% infection rate. A typical gain of function travels in the air so it could reach out maybe six feet or more from someone emitting a sneeze or a cough. Likewise, this is a specially designated WHO research lab. The WHO was in on it and they knew full well what was going on there.

Yes. It’s also been reported that Chinese scientists stole coronavirus materials from the Canadian lab at Winnipeg. Winnipeg is Canada’s formal center for research, developing, testing, biological warfare weapons. It’s along the lines of Fort Detrick here in the United States of America. I have three degrees from Harvard. It would not surprise me if something was being stolen out of Harvard to turn over to China. I read that report. I don’t know what was in those vials one way or the other.

But the bottom line is I drafted the US domestic implementing legislation for the Biological Weapons Convention that was approved unanimously by both Houses in the United States Congress signed into law by President Bush Sr. that it appears the coronavirus that we’re dealing with here is an offensive biological warfare weapon that leaped out of Wuhan BSL-4. I’m not saying it was done deliberately. But there had been previous reports of problems with that lab and things leaking out of it. I’m afraid that is what we are dealing with today.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on March 09, 2020, 12:34:49 PM
Huge news!  Chinese government and Wuhan lab admit that Covid-19 is a specific strain of bat coronavirus stored at the lab with just the insertions which make it contageous to humans being added.  This confirms the findings of the Indian, Taiwanese, American, South African, Canadian, UK, and scientists from other countries.  Talk about a complete 180 after pressuring others to retract their studies.  It also matches previous modifications the scientists were making in other experiments to understand how viruses make the leap to humans (documented above).

So now that they admit it is real, they are putting forth a complicated "recombination" theory to explain how this could happen in nature with multiple other animals passing it back and forth with bats to explain the vastly low probability that only those specific changes would have occured in such a short time period.  Of course, no such intemidiate stages of the viruses or Covid-19 itself have been identified in any animals to date.  So extraordinarily low possibility it was natural.  But they have to try in attempt to save face and stem international outrage, lawsuits, etc.

At least they admit the other scientists were right.  Hopefully their papers will now be republished and the damage to their careers caused by the propoganda attacks are undone.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.02.974139v2 (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.02.974139v2)
A novel bat coronavirus reveals natural insertions at the S1/S2 cleavage site of the Spike protein and a possible recombinant origin of HCoV-19
The unprecedented epidemic of pneumonia caused by a novel coronavirus, HCoV-19, in China and beyond has caused public health concern at a global scale. Although bats are regarded as the most likely natural hosts for HCoV-19, the origins of the virus remain unclear. Here, we report a novel bat-derived coronavirus, denoted RmYN02, identified from a metagenomics analysis of samples from 227 bats collected from Yunnan Province in China between May and October, 2019. RmYN02 shared 93.3% nucleotide identity with HCoV-19 at the scale of the complete virus genome and 97.2% identity in the 1ab gene in which it was the closest relative of HCoV-19. In contrast, RmYN02 showed low sequence identity (61.3%) to HCoV-19 in the receptor binding domain (RBD) and might not bind to angiotensin-converting enzyme 2 (ACE2). Critically, however, and in a similar manner to HCoV-19, RmYN02 was characterized by the insertion of multiple amino acids at the junction site of the S1 and S2 subunits of the Spike (S) protein.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: Mr. Bill on March 09, 2020, 01:26:51 PM
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.02.974139v2 (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.02.974139v2)
A novel bat coronavirus reveals natural insertions at the S1/S2 cleavage site of the Spike protein and a possible recombinant origin of HCoV-19
The unprecedented epidemic of pneumonia caused by a novel coronavirus, HCoV-19, in China and beyond has caused public health concern at a global scale. Although bats are regarded as the most likely natural hosts for HCoV-19, the origins of the virus remain unclear. Here, we report a novel bat-derived coronavirus, denoted RmYN02, identified from a metagenomics analysis of samples from 227 bats collected from Yunnan Province in China between May and October, 2019. RmYN02 shared 93.3% nucleotide identity with HCoV-19 at the scale of the complete virus genome and 97.2% identity in the 1ab gene in which it was the closest relative of HCoV-19. In contrast, RmYN02 showed low sequence identity (61.3%) to HCoV-19 in the receptor binding domain (RBD) and might not bind to angiotensin-converting enzyme 2 (ACE2). Critically, however, and in a similar manner to HCoV-19, RmYN02 was characterized by the insertion of multiple amino acids at the junction site of the S1 and S2 subunits of the Spike (S) protein.

Why did you omit the last two sentences of the abstract?

Quote
Abstract

The unprecedented epidemic of pneumonia caused by a novel coronavirus, HCoV-19, in China and beyond has caused public health concern at a global scale. Although bats are regarded as the most likely natural hosts for HCoV-19, the origins of the virus remain unclear. Here, we report a novel bat-derived coronavirus, denoted RmYN02, identified from a metagenomics analysis of samples from 227 bats collected from Yunnan Province in China between May and October, 2019. RmYN02 shared 93.3% nucleotide identity with HCoV-19 at the scale of the complete virus genome and 97.2% identity in the 1ab gene in which it was the closest relative of HCoV-19. In contrast, RmYN02 showed low sequence identity (61.3%) to HCoV-19 in the receptor binding domain (RBD) and might not bind to angiotensin-converting enzyme 2 (ACE2). Critically, however, and in a similar manner to HCoV-19, RmYN02 was characterized by the insertion of multiple amino acids at the junction site of the S1 and S2 subunits of the Spike (S) protein. This provides strong evidence that such insertion events can occur in nature. Together, these data suggest that HCoV-19 originated from multiple naturally occurring recombination events among those viruses present in bats and other wildlife species.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on March 09, 2020, 01:36:22 PM
Why did you omit the last two sentences of the abstract?

What are you suggesting?   I covered it explicitely in the introduction:

So now that they admit it is real, they are putting forth a complicated "recombination" theory to explain how this could happen in nature with multiple other animals passing it back and forth with bats to explain the vastly low probability that only those specific changes would have occured in such a short time period.  Of course, no such intemidiate stages of the viruses or Covid-19 itself have been identified in any animals to date.  So extraordinarily low possibility it was natural.  But they have to try in attempt to save face and stem international outrage, lawsuits, etc.

But the circular logic they deployed is brilliant.  We "know" it didnt occur in lab therefore this is "strong evidence" it occured in nature..

And it has been amazing to see the Chinese position evolve.  First the insertions were a hoax and didnt really exist. Then they were artifacts of testing. Then they were misidentified.  Now they happen all the time naturally and it is just coincidence that we were experimenting with just such insertions for the last three years.  Brilliant.  Best propoganda since Chernobyl.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on March 09, 2020, 02:00:21 PM
Indian study is back up.  Others arent.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.01.30.927871v1 (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.01.30.927871v1)
Uncanny similarity of unique inserts in the 2019-nCoV spike protein to HIV-1 gp120 and Gag

We are currently witnessing a major epidemic caused by the 2019 novel coronavirus (2019-nCoV). The evolution of 2019-nCoV remains elusive. We found 4 insertions in the spike glycoprotein (S) which are unique to the 2019-nCoV and are not present in other coronaviruses. Importantly, amino acid residues in all the 4 inserts have identity or similarity to those in the HIV-1 gp120 or HIV-1 Gag. Interestingly, despite the inserts being discontinuous on the primary amino acid sequence, 3D-modelling of the 2019-nCoV suggests that they converge to constitute the receptor binding site. The finding of 4 unique inserts in the 2019-nCoV, all of which have identity /similarity to amino acid residues in key structural proteins of HIV-1 is unlikely to be fortuitous in nature. This work provides yet unknown insights on 2019-nCoV and sheds light on the evolution and pathogenicity of this virus with important implications for diagnosis of this virus.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: David in MN on March 09, 2020, 03:24:48 PM
Well how would we make heads or tails of any data? The Chinese are so dependable in their data that they are hosting "thank you" events for the government responding so quickly and decisively. They did exactly nothing for 6 weeks (best guess) and then locked people in their apartments.

For whatever shortcomings international disease prevention had (and it's forgivable that they had some stumbling blocks on short notice) their first 2 months of research were completely fabricated by the Chinese. In the most critical time the Chinese did... Nothing. So even if we go in wanting to know what the exact vector was to humans they have ignored and falsified the data.

What this means going forward is that we will never know. And more importantly, the Chinese have proven they can't manage this kind of thing so internationally we need to stop in assisting China with acquiring these diseases for testing. We had to wait for Japan, Italy, and Iran to have serious issues before we had accurate patient histories and proper medical response.

The sad truth is that the Chinese couldn't care less if this disease was born in a lab or a swamp or some food market. That's an untrustworthy global partner. The Chinese have a lot of people and I'm sure some really good doctors and engineers. But their government will just whitewash the whole event. It's not like here where the CDC would leave no stone unturned and go back to primary sources. They'll just announce whatever they want and that's it.

You wouldn't do business with a chemical company that dumps in the river. You wouldn't work with a company that won't provide PPE. China has no interest to find a root cause to a global pandemic and we should lay a lot of bodies at their feet. They no longer have the gravitas to work with such things. I'm not sure where this virus originated (none of us are) but I am sure the Chinese don't care. So we'll ride this roller coaster again.

Hey it's not like this one country gave us corona, SARS, bird flu, H1N1, the Spanish flu, Black death....... If they don't care about the origin the way the rest of the world would we're not going to fix it over here. This disease didn't become a problem because of a lab or a market. It comes from Beijing.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on March 09, 2020, 03:43:53 PM
But here's the thing.  If it did evolve naturally in the wild then there must be a large stock of infected animals.  Therefore priority must be given to finding this stock so that it dosent spread or reemerge later.  This is standard protocol.  You find the animal source and then purge it.

But, now they have reportedly stopped all animal testing in the search of such a stock.  So anyone supporting the communist party theory must admit they are either completely incompetant (and therefore their level 4 lab should be closed) or that they know it did come from the lab and are covering it up (and therefore the lab should be closed).  Either way, that lab should be closed ASAP for everyone's safety.

So how does the communist party respond?  By saying that the virus didnt originate in China let alone Wuhan!  And now they released the bots on social media to say it is racist to say Wuhan Coronavirus or China Coronavirus.  Despite that diseases are typically classified by origin or area hit hard; Spanish Flu, MERS, etc.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on March 09, 2020, 04:30:24 PM
http://www.thetribunepapers.com/2020/03/07/china-media-launches-major-disinformation-offensive-on-coronavirus/ (http://www.thetribunepapers.com/2020/03/07/china-media-launches-major-disinformation-offensive-on-coronavirus/)
China Media launches major disinformation offensive on Coronavirus

China’s state-run propaganda outlets are circulating false stories on the coronavirus situation in the United States in order to take the focus away from the origin of the outbreak and criticism of the communist regime’s handling of it in China, reports say.

The disinformation campaign is painting the coronavirus in the United States as being more severe than in China. Some propaganda outlets are even claiming that the virus originated in the U.S. — with others going so far as to claim the virus is a CIA bioweapon.

“We clearly see that the coronavirus epidemic in China is very severe, which is totally different from what government authorities claim. Chinese people see for themselves what is happening around them,” Tang said.

U.S.-based China commentator Tang Jingyuan said he believes the regime of Chinese supreme leader Xi Jinping is purposefully using the U.S. outbreak to mislead Chinese citizens about the current outbreak within its own borders.

Thus, the Chinese regime hopes to shift people’s focus to the United States as a distraction, Tang said:

“It tries to fool people into thinking the virus is from the United States, and have Chinese people show hatred toward the U.S. Then, they won’t think about what the Beijing regime is doing.”

By emphasizing coronavirus outbreaks outside of China, the communist regime “can tell people that China has a better system,” Tang said.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: Mr. Bill on March 09, 2020, 09:02:23 PM
Indian study is back up.  Others arent.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.01.30.927871v1 (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.01.30.927871v1)
Uncanny similarity of unique inserts in the 2019-nCoV spike protein to HIV-1 gp120 and Gag

That's still the same article, and it says "Withdrawn" right above the title.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on March 09, 2020, 09:26:35 PM
That's still the same article, and it says "Withdrawn" right above the title.

That is the point! 

it was the first study verifying the connection to Wuhan lab bats and the "mysterious" insertions which made it capable of infecting humans.

Under pressure from China, the media maligned the authors and forced it from circulation. The recent communist party blessed article confirms the findings. As I stated above it is a complete reversal by the communists.  "First the insertions were a hoax and didnt really exist. Then they were artifacts of testing. Then they were misidentified.  Now they happen all the time naturally and it is just coincidence that we were experimenting with just such insertions for the last three years." 

Now the original article is reposted in all the archives.  It is still withdrawn until they officially resubmit.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on March 09, 2020, 09:47:14 PM
Uh oh.  One year ago from our favorite progressive science league.

https://thebulletin.org/2019/02/human-error-in-high-biocontainment-labs-a-likely-pandemic-threat/amp/ (https://thebulletin.org/2019/02/human-error-in-high-biocontainment-labs-a-likely-pandemic-threat/amp/)
Human error in high-biocontainment labs: a likely pandemic threat

Incidents causing potential exposures to pathogens occur frequently in the high security laboratories often known by their acronyms, BSL3 (Biosafety Level 3) and BSL4. Lab incidents that lead to undetected or unreported laboratory-acquired infections can lead to the release of a disease into the community outside the lab; lab workers with such infections will leave work carrying the pathogen with them. If the agent involved were a potential pandemic pathogen, such a community release could lead to a worldwide pandemic with many fatalities. Of greatest concern is a release of a lab-created, mammalian-airborne-transmissible, highly pathogenic avian influenza virus, such as the airborne-transmissible H5N1 viruses created in the laboratories of Ron Fouchier in the Netherlands and Yoshihiro Kawaoka In Madison Wisconsin.

Such releases are fairly likely over time, as there are at least 14 labs (mostly in Asia) now carrying out this research. Whatever release probability the world is gambling with, it is clearly far too high a risk to human lives. Mammal-transmissible bird flu research poses a real danger of a worldwide pandemic that could kill human beings on a vast scale.
...
Understanding human error is important to calculating the probability that a pathogen will be released from a lab into the surrounding community, the first step in calculating the likelihood of a pandemic.  A key observation is that human error in the lab is mostly independent of pathogen type and biosafety level. Analyzing the likelihood of release from laboratories researching less virulent or transmissible pathogens therefore can serve as a reasonable surrogate for how potential pandemic pathogens are handled.
...
But the high percentage of human error reported here calls into question claims that state-of-the-art design of BSL3, BSL3+ (augmented BSL3), and BSL4 labs will prevent the release of dangerous pathogens. How much lab-worker training might reduce human error and undetected or unreported laboratory acquired infections remains an open question. Given the many ways by which human error can occur, it is doubtful that Fouchier’s human-error-prevention measures can eliminate release of airborne-transmissible avian flu into the community through undetected or unreported lab infections.
...
The probability of release into the community. In an analysis circulated at the 2017 meeting for the Biological Weapons Convention, a conservative estimate shows that the probability is about 20 percent for a release of a mammalian-airborne-transmissible, highly pathogenic avian influenza virus into the community from at least one of 10 labs over a 10-year period of developing and researching this type of pathogen. This percentage was calculated from FSAP data for the years 2004 through 2010.

Analysis of the FOIA NIH data gives a much higher release probability—that is, a factor five to 10 times higher, based on a smaller number of incident reports.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on March 10, 2020, 10:10:35 AM
https://www.jewishpress.com/indepth/opinions/coronavirus-chinas-war-on-the-truth/2020/03/09/ (https://www.jewishpress.com/indepth/opinions/coronavirus-chinas-war-on-the-truth/2020/03/09/)
Coronavirus: China’s War on the Truth

“On current course, China is liable to do significant damage to the rest the world, by accident or intent,” wrote columnist Daniel Henninger in the Wall Street Journal on January 29.

“The Chinese Communist government increasingly poses an existential threat not just to its own 1.4 billion citizens but to the world at large”, wrote the noted historian Victor Davis Hanson on February 20.

According to The Sunday Times,

“Chinese laboratories identified a mystery virus as a highly infectious new pathogen by late December last year, but they were ordered to stop tests, destroy samples and suppress the news, a Chinese media outlet has revealed.

“A regional health official in Wuhan, centre of the outbreak, demanded the destruction of the lab samples that established the cause of unexplained viral pneumonia on January 1. China did not acknowledge there was human-to-human transmission until more than three weeks later.

“The detailed revelations by Caixin Global, a respected independent publication, provide the clearest evidence yet of the scale of the cover-up in the crucial early weeks when the opportunity was lost to control the outbreak.”
...
“Censorship. It can have deadly consequences,” said US Secretary of State Mike Pompeo on February 25. “Had China permitted its own and foreign journalists and medical personnel to speak and investigate freely, Chinese officials and other nations would have been far better prepared to address the challenge.”
...
Meanwhile, China’s war on the truth marches on. The laboratory of the Shanghai Health Center was closed on January 12, one day after Professor Zhang Yongzhen’s team revealed the sequence of the coronavirus genome on open platforms. The Chinese regime prevented its scientists from finding ways to contain the epidemic. Their “crime”? Releasing the sequence to the world before the Chinese authorities did.

“The epidemic has exposed this country completely in its corruption, bureaucracy, information control and censorship,” said Phillip Wu, a freelance writer in Beijing. And if you think the Chinese regime is meddling only in its own country, read a recent British report revealing how China is also curbing academic freedom in the UK.

Zeng Yingchun and Zhen Yan, two nurses from Wuhan, the epicenter of the coronavirus, wrote a dramatic letter for the medical journal The Lancet, in which they asked the international scientific community for help:

“The conditions and environment here in Wuhan are more difficult and extreme than we could ever have imagined. There is a severe shortage of protective equipment, such as N95 respirators, face shields, goggles, gowns, and gloves. The goggles are made of plastic that must be repeatedly cleaned and sterilised in the ward, thereby making them difficult to see through.”

One day later, the nurses requested that their letter be withdrawn.

The Chinese regime arrested Li Wenliang, the doctor who had issued the first admonition about the epidemic that soon killed him. On December 30 he had sent out a warning to his fellow medical workers, but police told him to stop “making false comments“. Many journalists told the truth, but were arrested or “vanished.” Social media in China talked about the virus weeks before the government did. Now the Chinese communist regime is announcing plans to publish a book in six languages about the outbreak; the book portrays President Xi as a “major power leader” with “care for the people”.

At the Wuhan Institute of Virology, scientists carry out research at a laboratory that has the highest level of biological containment on the mainland, to study the world’s “most dangerous pathogens”. That the coronavirus might be related to Wuhan’s virus research laboratory is considered by some a “conspiracy theory,” but China’s refusal immediately to accept help from the US Centers for Disease Control understandably arouses suspicion. According to Paul Wolfowitz, former President of the World Bank and former US Deputy Secretary of Defense:

“The fact that Wuhan is home to China’s advanced virus research laboratory known as the Wuhan Institute of Virology, which does some classified work for the Chinese military, has predictably generated speculation that the novel Corona virus might have somehow leaked out of that institute.”

“Don’t buy China’s story: The coronavirus may have leaked from a lab”, wrote Steven Mosher, an expert on China, in The New York Post.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on March 12, 2020, 01:45:57 PM
This pretty much confirms it.  China's government always accuses others of what they themselves have done.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/china-smear-united-states-coronavirus-wuhan.amp (https://www.foxnews.com/us/china-smear-united-states-coronavirus-wuhan.amp)
Inside China's high-stakes campaign to smear the United States over coronavirus

If you listened to Chinese state-run media, you'd think President Trump went to China and released vials of COVID-19 on groups of unsuspecting men, women and children.

Beijing has been bending over backward trying to convince the world that the United States is the real culprit behind the quickly spreading virus that's already claimed more than 4,600 lives across the globe.

It's a high-stakes strategy for the Asian nation fighting to keep its superpower status amid a national lockdown and palpable anger over claims that Wuhan, China, the epicenter of the coronavirus, at first covered it up, triggering a worldwide health and economic crisis.
...
At best, China's aggressive new campaign can be chalked up to ambitious propaganda.  At its worst, it's a reckless display from a country that has actively misled the world while working overtime to save its own skin, foreign affairs expert Gordon G. Chang told Fox News.

Chang believes Beijing has been laying the groundwork for a PR attack against the United States for more than a month, first by throwing doubt on the origin of COVID-19 and second, by slamming America's handling of previous diseases like the swine flu, which decimated China's pork industry.
...
On Thursday, Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Zhao Lijian tweeted that the U.S. military might have brought the coronavirus to Wuhan.

“When did patient zero begin in US? How many people are infected? What are the names of the hospitals? It might be US army who brought the epidemic to Wuhan. Be transparent! Make public your data! US owe us an explanation!” Zhao said.
...
A few days earlier, Lin Songtian, China's ambassador to South Africa, said: "Although the epidemic first broke out in China, it did not necessarily mean that the virus is originated from China, let alone 'made in China.'"
...
Vague and misleading statements like the one from Lin are ripped right out of China's propaganda playbook and attempt to sow doubt about the global crisis.

Chinese officials have also pushed back on the expression "Wuhan coronavirus" -- saying the name used frequently by U.S. conservative commentators unfairly stigmatizes the world's most populous country.

Chang said it's just another tactic in China's playbook, carefully choreographed to make Americans look petty and racist.

"This an all-out assault on the United States," Chang said.

In December, when the coronavirus was first detected in Wuhan, many media around the world began referring to it as the "Wuhan virus."
...
“The Chinese military portal Xilu.com recently published an article baselessly claiming that the virus is ‘a biochemical weapon produced by the U.S. to target China,’"
...
"It's more than just some disinformation or an official narrative," Xiao Qiang, an adjunct professor at the University of California at Berkeley's Schools of Information, told The Washington Post. "It's an orchestrated, all-out campaign by the Chinese government through every channel at a level you rarely see. It's a counteroffensive."
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on March 13, 2020, 03:33:23 PM
Uh oh.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/03/13/politics/state-department-chinese-ambassador-coronavirus/index.html (https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/03/13/politics/state-department-chinese-ambassador-coronavirus/index.html)
US summons Chinese ambassador over coronavirus conspiracy theory

US Assistant Secretary of State David Stilwell summoned China's ambassador in Washington to the State Department Friday morning, hours after a prominent Chinese official suggested that the US military may have been responsible for bringing the coronavirus to Wuhan, the epicenter of the global pandemic.

That claim was publicly promoted by China's Foreign Ministry spokesman Zhao Lijian on Thursday, who pointed to remarks made by Centers for Disease Control and Prevention l director Robert Redfield as proof of a growing conspiracy theory that the coronavirus did not originate in central China, as previously thought, and may have been brought there by the US Army.
...
The State Department believes that China is seeking to deflect criticism for its role in "starting a global pandemic and not telling the world," the official told CNN
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: CandyGram4Mongo on March 15, 2020, 06:29:43 AM
Interesting article asserting that some lab workers sell infected lab animals to bolster their income:
 https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2020/03/the_wuhan_virus_escaped_from_a_chinese_lab.html (https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2020/03/the_wuhan_virus_escaped_from_a_chinese_lab.html)

Worse yet, the virus may have been released by underpaid researchers who sold contaminated lab animals to make a little extra cash on the side: ( https://www.marketwatch.com/story/dont-buy-chinas-story-the-coronavirus-may-have-leaked-from-a-lab-2020-02-22 (https://www.marketwatch.com/story/dont-buy-chinas-story-the-coronavirus-may-have-leaked-from-a-lab-2020-02-22))

And then there is this little-known fact: Some Chinese researchers are believed to sell laboratory animals to street vendors after they have finished experimenting on them[.] ...

Instead of properly disposing of infected animals by cremation, as the law requires, they sell them on the side to make a little extra cash.  Or, in some cases, a lot of extra cash.  One Beijing researcher, now in jail, made the equivalent of a million dollars selling monkeys and rats on the live animal market, whence they likely wound up in someone's stomach.


No smoking gun but more dots to connect...
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on March 15, 2020, 08:17:10 AM
Many articles on this outside the US media.  Iran's former president, who is a regular envoy for Iran to UN, sent letter to UN president claiming evidence that China leaked virus from one of the Wuhan labs and calling for international panel to investigate.  China still refuses to release any facility records to WHO despite obligations. 

https://londonlovesbusiness.com/ex-iranian-president-says-covid-19-is-a-bio-weapon-made-in-a-lab/ (https://londonlovesbusiness.com/ex-iranian-president-says-covid-19-is-a-bio-weapon-made-in-a-lab/)
Ex Iranian President says Covid-19 is a ‘bio-weapon’ made in a lab
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on March 18, 2020, 12:49:12 PM
Nothing to see here.  Move on.  This is why journalists are being expelled.  Independent lab isolated the virus which would allow tracing to origin.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/chinese-scientists-destroyed-proof-of-virus-in-december-rz055qjnj (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/chinese-scientists-destroyed-proof-of-virus-in-december-rz055qjnj)
Chinese scientists destroyed proof of virus in December

A regional health official in Wuhan, centre of the outbreak, demanded the destruction of the lab samples that established the cause of unexplained viral pneumonia on January 1. China did not acknowledge there was human-to-human transmission until more than three weeks later.

The detailed revelations by Caixin Global, a respected independent publication, provide the clearest evidence yet of the scale of the cover-up in the crucial early weeks when the opportunity was lost to control the outbreak.

Censors have been rapidly deleting the report from the Chinese internet.

Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: David in MN on March 19, 2020, 12:00:12 PM
I have heard conflicting views on whether this was a lab accident and even so far that this was an intentionally derived bioweapon. I'm not an expert in RNA structure and I can't possibly make an informed decision.

But I keep coming back to that wonderful Tommy Lee Jones line: I don't care.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FdvXl5GAes

We don't really need to prove this to hold the Chinese government accountable. There's enough done with their data fabrication and their imprisoning those who warned the world that there could well be a trial at the Hague. I realize it's all the sexy virtue signal nonsense to not call it a "Chinese flu" but when we emerge from this there might well be a few million dead because the Chinese policy was to deny and imprison and falsify reports when human life hung in the balance.

What gets me is that the best case Chinese position is one where they jailed whistleblowers and let this get out. This from the fine government that let out MURS, SARS, bird flu, swine flu, H1N1, fill in the blank here, etc. China is our Typhoid Mary. And when the smoke clears there better be hell to pay for their practices.

And by the by, if it comes out that this really is just eating bats who was the government that so starved its people that they EAT BATS? It all comes full circle to that horrible government and they need some accountability.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: LvsChant on March 19, 2020, 02:34:15 PM
You might also be interested in Stefan Molyneaux's guest on his YT vid today:

https://youtu.be/J6VEYzwSdZU
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: David in MN on March 19, 2020, 03:33:32 PM
You might also be interested in Stefan Molyneaux's guest on his YT vid today:

https://youtu.be/J6VEYzwSdZU

I listened though I must confess Molyneaux has gotten near insufferable to me these days. The problem I have is that while I do believe there could be credible claims that this disease was a lab test gone wrong (and with the Chinese looking for a SARS cure it's not a big leap) I have no way of verifying it personally. Genetics and biomedical engineering are very niche and any guess I could venture wouldn't be worth the paper it was written on.

My point is more along the line of... let me word it this way... If the "wet market" story is true the Chinese lied about the disease to the WHO and put lives at risk. Here in the states we call a careless and wanton act that disregards human life manslaughter. That's the best case scenario. I'd argue that falsifying data is a premeditated malice and I wouldn't balk at a human rights tribunal. The CCP is culpable for not sounding the alarm and alerting the rest of the world, to say nothing of the millions of Chinese citizens put at risk as they shuffled papers and denied anything was wrong.

That's why we will never get the origin carved in stone and it doesn't matter. The good story is awful.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: surfivor on March 20, 2020, 09:03:41 AM
 If you think facts should be obtained and investigations launched then you probably need to be somewhat vocal and adamant about it. Likewise if you believe that bio weapons research is dangerous, questionable and unnecessary then that too should be a priority. I think it is more dangerous than is worth it

 It is entirely possible to launch investigations and establish some facts but people seem uninterested or very lukewarm about it and nothing every happens. They just go with the ocams razir explanations

 If some commission similar to the warren commission or 911 commission seems to be a scam then demands should be that they are dismissed. If they can't do a proper investigation then the default position should be against all bio weapons research which is my default position anyway, that is ban all such bio weapon research
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: LvsChant on March 20, 2020, 09:55:36 AM
I'm doubtful that anything in terms of any repercussions will happen to the Chinese in legal terms...

But, I'm also guessing that countries around the world are going to rethink the idea of letting a country run by Communist dictators take care of most of our manufacturing needs in the future. It may take some time, but I'm thinking we may see a resurgence of manufacturing in our own countries, particularly for critical healthcare needs, etc.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on March 20, 2020, 10:45:33 AM
If they can't do a proper investigation then the default position should be against all bio weapons research which is my default position anyway, that is ban all such bio weapon research

This is a good point.  Before this happened many scientists warned that that the level 4 lab in Wuhan was unsafe.  And that hasnt changed.  And what we have learned now is China is willing to hide incidents and destroy evidence. Heck, they cant even stop their scientists from doing rogue genetic modifications on babies or smuggling dangerous biological agents through airports in their socks.   They simply arent prepared to maintain such a lab and this is a legitimate threat to the human race on par with the cold war nuclear threat.  We need better treaties on this ASAP.

I'm doubtful that anything in terms of any repercussions will happen to the Chinese in legal terms...

But, I'm also guessing that countries around the world are going to rethink the idea of letting a country run by Communist dictators take care of most of our manufacturing needs in the future. It may take some time, but I'm thinking we may see a resurgence of manufacturing in our own countries, particularly for critical healthcare needs, etc.

Absolutely.  But there is one thing which the US government is doing, cracking down on US scientists who are making millions selling sensitive IP to China and helping them set up secret labs.  We dont let physicists provide nuclear technology that can be weaponized to other countries. It is highly watched.  Everyone keeps track of scientists who have worked in defense facilities.  For example, when I travel to UK they intercept me at airport and I have to go into a room and explain why I am there.   But biochemists have been spreading even more dangerous technology with impunity.  Believe me, this is coming to a hard stop with some very prominent figures finding themselves behind bars to send this message.  And the universities are taking note and putting in place systems so they arent further embroiled in these scandals.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: Gamer on March 24, 2020, 05:15:43 AM
Topic: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
-----------------------------------------------------

Check out the prophetic opening titles from 'Survivors' (1975) and watch the rest of the episode if you like for a step-by-step account of what happens as a pandemic begins to bite-

https://youtu.be/zAyjkaFYnzE
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: Morning Sunshine on March 24, 2020, 07:08:54 AM
MODS: Can we get a separate sub-category for all COVID-related threads?  It would make it easier to find the one I am looking for.

http://thesurvivalpodcast.com/forum/index.php?topic=64761.0
http://thesurvivalpodcast.com/forum/index.php?topic=64901.0
http://thesurvivalpodcast.com/forum/index.php?topic=64870.0
http://thesurvivalpodcast.com/forum/index.php?topic=64817.0
http://thesurvivalpodcast.com/forum/index.php?topic=64853.0
http://thesurvivalpodcast.com/forum/index.php?topic=64739.0

I am sure there are more...
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: Mr. Bill on March 24, 2020, 09:23:12 AM
MODS: Can we get a separate sub-category for all COVID-related threads?  It would make it easier to find the one I am looking for.

Done.  Good idea.

If y'all find any more topics we should move, please hit that "Report to moderator" link and tell us.  Thanks!
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: Morning Sunshine on March 24, 2020, 10:12:41 AM
Done.  Good idea.

If y'all find any more topics we should move, please hit that "Report to moderator" link and tell us.  Thanks!

thank you!
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on March 27, 2020, 06:08:13 PM
Scientists strike out in finding matching Covid-19 virus in Pangolins. There is still zero evidence for the intermediate animal theory.  Media tries to spin exactly the opposite.

https://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/illegally-trafficked-pangolins-found-to-carry-coronaviruses-related-to-pandemic-strain/ (https://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/illegally-trafficked-pangolins-found-to-carry-coronaviruses-related-to-pandemic-strain/)

Bats have unusually proactive immune systems, which have a nasty habit of crafting viral strains that are hugely infectious and often deadly, as they’re essentially trained up while incubating in the bat’s body.  They’re known carriers of the two coronaviruses SARS and MERS and are the most likely source of the current SARS-CoV-2 currently sweeping the globe. However, it’s thought that the COVID-19 coronavirus had to pass through a “middle man” before spreading to humans. A paper published in the journal Nature has identified closely related coronaviruses of the pandemic strain in pangolins. Although the research doesn't suggest pangolins are directly involved in the spread of the current outbreak, it does show them to be capable of hosting coronaviruses, and thus their trafficking and consumption should be halted to minimize the risk of potential future transmission.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on March 27, 2020, 06:13:04 PM
Newsweek actually does a balanced job, despite the deceptive, click-baity headline.  92.4 percent is a very poor match.  One thing no-one has done so far is point out who funded this research. 

https://www.newsweek.com/scientists-strains-coronaviruses-covid-19-pangolins-1494686 (https://www.newsweek.com/scientists-strains-coronaviruses-covid-19-pangolins-1494686)
Scientists Find Strains of Coronaviruses Closely Related to COVID-19 virus in Pangolins

. Three samples from three pangolins came back as positive, showing an 85.5 percent to 92.4 percent genetic sequence similarity to SARS-CoV-2.
...
But Professor Andrew Cunningham, Deputy Director of Science, Zoological Society of London (ZSL), said it was important not to jump to too many conclusions.

"While the paper is interesting, it is important not to overinterpret the results," he told Newsweek. "While it is possible that pangolins might be able to act as natural or intermediate—possibly amplifier—hosts for SARS-CoV-2, the publication does not provide enough evidence to come to this conclusion."

He also said claims that pangolins being the only species of mammal besides bats to harbour coronaviruses like these are misleading, explaining: "We already know that a wide range of mammals are hosts to coronaviruses—and they are just the ones in which coronaviruses have been looked for."

Last year, Cunningham co-authored a paper on beta coronaviruses found in British hedgehogs, a group that contains SARS coronaviruses.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: Mr. Bill on March 27, 2020, 08:53:49 PM
One thing no-one has done so far is point out who funded this research.

Found it, at the bottom of the paper.

Journal of Proteome Research, 3/22/20: Protein Structure and Sequence Reanalysis of 2019-nCoV Genome Refutes Snakes as Its Intermediate Host and the Unique Similarity between Its Spike Protein Insertions and HIV-1 (https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.jproteome.0c00129)

Quote
This work used the Extreme Science and Engineering Discovery Environment (XSEDE), which is supported by the National Science Foundation (ACI1548562). This work is supported in part by the National Institute of General Medical Sciences (GM083107, GM116960), the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (AI134678), and the National Science Foundation (DBI1564756, IIS1901191).

All 5 authors are at the University of Michigan.

I haven't read the paper yet, but here's the abstract:

Quote
As the infection of 2019-nCoV coronavirus is quickly developing into a global pneumonia epidemic, the careful analysis of its transmission and cellular mechanisms is sorely needed. In this Communication, we first analyzed two recent studies that concluded that snakes are the intermediate hosts of 2019-nCoV and that the 2019-nCoV spike protein insertions share a unique similarity to HIV-1. However, the reimplementation of the analyses, built on larger scale data sets using state-of-the-art bioinformatics methods and databases, presents clear evidence that rebuts these conclusions. Next, using metagenomic samples from Manis javanica, we assembled a draft genome of the 2019-nCoV-like coronavirus, which shows 73% coverage and 91% sequence identity to the 2019-nCoV genome. In particular, the alignments of the spike surface glycoprotein receptor binding domain revealed four times more variations in the bat coronavirus RaTG13 than in the Manis coronavirus compared with 2019-nCoV, suggesting the pangolin as a missing link in the transmission of 2019-nCoV from bats to human.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on March 28, 2020, 09:49:39 AM
Found it, at the bottom of the paper.

Journal of Proteome Research, 3/22/20: Protein Structure and Sequence Reanalysis of 2019-nCoV Genome Refutes Snakes as Its Intermediate Host and the Unique Similarity between Its Spike Protein Insertions and HIV-1 (https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.jproteome.0c00129)

All 5 authors are at the University of Michigan.

I haven't read the paper yet, but here's the abstract:

The link to the new paper is below.  It contains authors and affiliations.  But funding is not disclosed.  From the affiliations we can probably make a pretty good assumption. 

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2169-0 (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2169-0)
Identifying SARS-CoV-2 related coronaviruses in Malayan pangolins

Affiliations
Joint Institute of Virology (Shantou University / The University of Hong Kong) & Guangdong-Hongkong Joint Laboratory of Emerging Infectious Diseases, Shantou University, Shantou, Guangdong, 515063, P. R. China
Tommy Tsan-Yuk Lam, Hua-Chen Zhu & Yi Guan

State Key Laboratory of Emerging Infectious Diseases, School of Public Health, The University of Hong Kong, Hong Kong SAR, P. R. China
Tommy Tsan-Yuk Lam, Marcus Ho-Hin Shum, Hua-Chen Zhu, Xue-Bing Ni, Yun-Shi Liao, William Yiu-Man Cheung, Gabriel M. Leung & Yi Guan
Beijing Advanced Innovation Center for Soft Matter Science and Engineering (BAIC-SM), College of Life Science and Technology, Beijing University of Chemical Technology, Beijing, 100029, P. R. China
Yi-Gang Tong & Wen-Juan Li

Life Sciences Institute, Guangxi Medical University, Nanning, Guangxi, 530021, P. R. China
Wei Wei & Yan-Ling Hu

Center for Genomic and Personalized Medicine, Guangxi Medical University, Nanning, Guangxi, 530021, P. R. China
Yan-Ling Hu

School of Information and Management, Guangxi Medical University, Nanning, Guangxi, 530021, P. R. China
Lian-Feng Li

Marie Bashir Institute for Infectious Diseases and Biosecurity, School of Life and Environmental Sciences and School of Medical Sciences, The University of Sydney, Sydney, Australia
Edward C. Holmes
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: Mr. Bill on March 28, 2020, 09:54:25 AM
Ah, looks like the article I found was entirely separate from the article you were referring to.  My oops.

So we've got two totally separate groups of researchers, one entirely US-based and US-funded, who are both pointing at the pangolin as a possible intermediary.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on March 28, 2020, 10:13:44 AM
Ah, looks like the article I found was entirely separate from the article you were referring to.  My oops.

So we've got two totally separate groups of researchers, one entirely US-based and US-funded, who are both pointing at the pangolin as a possible intermediary.

There are a half dozen, seemingly well funded groups all trying to show Covid-19 originated in anteaters.  All have failed. In fact, no animal stock has ever been identified of any type of species.

But as shown in previously posted research above, it is proven almost identical (97%+) to previous published bat coronavirus from Wuhan lab with the insertions enabling it to infect humans being the primary difference.

Any way you slice it, the evidence is strong it jumped directly from bats to humans.  How this occured is unclear. But this destroys Wuhan Seafood market story as bats werent sold there and none were found.  So the search and funding go on.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: Mr. Bill on March 28, 2020, 12:04:55 PM
Any way you slice it, the evidence is strong it jumped directly from bats to humans.

I'm reading it differently than you are, but I'm having a hard time keeping up with news right now because of other non-coronavirus chaos in my life.

In any case, the virus certainly went from bat to human by way of somehow or other.  I think there are only three plausible ways:


I don't think we're going to find out which is true anytime soon.  China either does not want us to know, or is doing an amazing job of not finding out.

It's not plausible that the virus was created as a military bioweapon, because it doesn't act at all the way a useful military bioweapon would act.

It's not plausible that it was created as a global depopulation weapon, unless you believe in Dark Forces that will somehow benefit from throwing the entire world into Great Depression 2.  I know some forum members believe this anyway, but I will say bluntly that the idea is crazy.  Ming the Merciless is a fictional character.

None of this really changes the current situation.  We're learning the characteristics of the virus, regardless of how it came into existence, and we have to deal with the fact that it is now spread all over the planet.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: FreeLancer on March 28, 2020, 04:18:51 PM
It's like arguing on the Titanic about whether you're sinking because of the hull's metallurgical defects or from running full steam into an iceberg.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: Hurricane on March 28, 2020, 08:08:07 PM
I have seen the references to pangolins, but didn't know what they were. Looked them up on wikipedia. They are scaly anteaters.
Found this, emphasis mine:
Quote
Pangolins are threatened by poaching (for their meat and scales, which are used in Chinese traditional medicine for a variety of ailments including excessive anxiety and hysterical crying in children, women thought to be possessed by devils and ogres, malarial fever, and deafness)

Somewhat ironic since we are using anti-malaria drugs to battle this virus.
Maybe we need a little "hair-of-the-dog" ??

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pangolin
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: surfivor on March 29, 2020, 01:59:54 AM
I'm reading it differently than you are, but I'm having a hard time keeping up with news right now because of other non-coronavirus chaos in my life.

In any case, the virus certainly went from bat to human by way of somehow or other.  I think there are only three plausible ways:

  • The virus arose naturally in the wild (maybe via pangolins, maybe not, or maybe via several different animals), and passed directly from animals to humans.  There is adequate evidence that this could have happened, but no proof that it did happen.
  • The virus arose naturally in the wild, was collected by the lab for study, and escaped from the lab.
  • The lab, in the course of experiments to learn whether a dangerous coronavirus could arise naturally, created this virus artificially, and it escaped from the lab.

I don't think we're going to find out which is true anytime soon.  China either does not want us to know, or is doing an amazing job of not finding out.

It's not plausible that the virus was created as a military bioweapon, because it doesn't act at all the way a useful military bioweapon would act.

It's not plausible that it was created as a global depopulation weapon, unless you believe in Dark Forces that will somehow benefit from throwing the entire world into Great Depression 2.  I know some forum members believe this anyway, but I will say bluntly that the idea is crazy.  Ming the Merciless is a fictional character.

None of this really changes the current situation.  We're learning the characteristics of the virus, regardless of how it came into existence, and we have to deal with the fact that it is now spread all over the planet.

That’s like saying US banks and corporations would fund the enemy like the Nazis or the US would fund a supposed enemy like ISIS or the Rothschilds would fund both sides of various wars but wait .. that’s what they all did plus all the quotes and objectives of eugenics.

WWI was another conflict that made little sense other than wars help to reduce the population (and gain some power for certain elite classes ). That’s exactly what some satanist told me once what he believed. When you look at it that way, you can make some sense out of history otherwise it really makes no sense at all
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on March 29, 2020, 07:15:43 AM
"Don't worry about the source" has been the main talking point of China's communist party.  Everything is focussed on that for dual purpose of shedding responsiblity and maintaining these capabilities. 

It is just like Chernobyl.  Don't worry about reactor designs and deficient protocols.  Just take your thyroid pills while we throw some engineers at the "elephants foot" (all of whom will die).  And make sure to lock down the citizens so they can't talk to the press; it would hurt our international reputation if people found out what really happened and how likely it is to happen again

The international science communuty didn't let the Russians get  away with it then and we aren't going to let the Chinese get away with it now, no matter how many shills they buy or people they influence through their propaganda.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: Mr. Bill on March 29, 2020, 10:57:32 AM
I am worried about the source.  Everyone with a brain is worried about the source.  But it doesn't change what we need to be doing right now to protect ourselves from a virus that is already far removed from the source, and present essentially everywhere.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on March 31, 2020, 06:18:34 PM
Nothing to see here.

https://www.nationalreview.com/news/border-patrol-stopped-a-chinese-biologist-carrying-viable-sars-mers-viruses-at-detroit-airport-in-2018/amp/ (https://www.nationalreview.com/news/border-patrol-stopped-a-chinese-biologist-carrying-viable-sars-mers-viruses-at-detroit-airport-in-2018/amp/)
Border Patrol Stopped a Chinese Biologist Carrying Viable SARS, MERS Viruses at Detroit Airport in 2018

U.S. Customs and Border Protection officers at Detroit Metro Airport stopped a Chinese scientist carrying vials believed to contain the MERS and SARS viruses in November 2018 — just over a year before the first reported Wuhan coronavirus case, according to an FBI tactical intelligence report obtained by Yahoo News.

“Inspection of the writing on the vials and the stated recipient led inspection personnel to believe the materials contained within the vials may be viable Middle East Respiratory Syndrome (MERS) and Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome (SARS) materials,” the report reads. The vials were labeled “Antibodies”, and the unnamed scientist said he was asked to deliver them to a researcher at a U.S. institute.

The report also lays out a pattern of Chinese interference, detailing two other cases from May 2018 and September 2019, in which different Chinese nationals tried to enter the U.S. with undeclared flu strains and suspected E. coli, respectively.
...
The FBI has stepped up its efforts to combat Chinese espionage operations in recent months after admitting failures in preventing the recruitment of U.S. researchers by Beijing’s “Thousand Talents Plan.”
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: surfivor on March 31, 2020, 06:35:42 PM

If we don’t worry about the source and it came from a lab then it will probably happen again and be worse the next time and the next time won’t be too far off
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: surfivor on March 31, 2020, 07:39:21 PM
It’s just blatantly unacceptable on so many levels that regardless of how the outbreak started, the system doesn’t really care because it means more for the medicine based economy and excuses to run people’s lives. No way does this fly sorry. Something has to be done, shut down bio weapons research AND wet markets and especially if you can’t demonstrate a capability to  investigate it

https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.jpost.com/international/report-wet-markets-in-china-still-operating-despite-coronavirus-outbreak-622917/amp

Australian-based news outlet news.com.au has reported that thousands have begun flocking back to wet markets across China in places such as Dongguan and Guilin, despite these markets being considered ground zero for coronavirus outbreaks.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: ChEng on March 31, 2020, 08:03:07 PM
... shut down bio weapons research ...
Terrible idea! Offense and defense are opposite sides of the same coin. Without bio-weapons research, we are doomed to subjugation by whatever psycho despot is willing to attack us. Without bio-weapons research, we have no defense to that kind of weapon.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: Prepper456 on March 31, 2020, 08:06:35 PM
It’s just blatantly unacceptable on so many levels that regardless of how the outbreak started, the system doesn’t really care...

Something has to be done, shut down... (etc)

Australian-based news outlet news.com.au has reported that thousands have begun flocking back to wet markets

yesterday werent you against social distancing? and not caring about self isolating?
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: surfivor on March 31, 2020, 10:52:52 PM
Terrible idea! Offense and defense are opposite sides of the same coin. Without bio-weapons research, we are doomed to subjugation by whatever psycho despot is willing to attack us. Without bio-weapons research, we have no defense to that kind of weapon.

They claim everything is defense, that’s why they changed the war department to the department of defense. It’s the same thing, it just sounds better. I think the US and western nations has produced more weapons of every sort and spread them around the world selling them to to nearly everyone. Bio weapons are much more dangerous. However, I am saying if you can’t investigate what happened in a satisfactory manner then they should be banned. There was never a proper investigation of 911 either, spirko agrees and the 911 commission said so themselves.

So they are keeping us safe is just a claim. I am not convinced one bit. I think it is more dangerous to our country

Not only that but intelligence agencies should be capable of determining what other countries are doing and what sort of weapons are being developed. Instead we have a  horrible and lousy deep state, not everyone in there but the CIA and FBI have the worst track record and have been working against our president and are unamerican to the core. These are the people that are supposed to have our countries interest but I have absolutely zero faith in them and whatever secret stuff they are up to seems to be no good

We’ve also given or allowrd communist China to have all manner of military and technological secrets so there’s tons of reasons to be cynical (or realistic)

Anthrax was sent to congress after 911. Did it come from some rogue state like Iran ? No it came from a US weapons lab. The FBI was never able to solve that one after they accused two people falsely. SARS has escaped from weapons labs twice in China already. There is numerous evidence of careless handling of bio weapons

We have been giving China, a communist state bio weapon technology, but then China is not our enemy just another communist country running slave camps, oppressing and murdering people just like communist countries have always done
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: surfivor on March 31, 2020, 10:55:43 PM
yesterday werent you against social distancing? and not caring about self isolating?

That’s quite different than claiming that the outbreak stared in a food market because people ate bats and snakes and then ignoring it and then letting it continue.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: surfivor on March 31, 2020, 11:30:39 PM

https://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0908-08.htm

THE US and Britain sold Saddam Hussein the technology and materials Iraq needed to develop nuclear, chemical and biological weapons of mass destruction.

Reports by the US Senate's committee on banking, housing and urban affairs -- which oversees American exports policy -- reveal that the US, under the successive administrations of Ronald Reagan and George Bush Sr, sold materials including anthrax, VX nerve gas, West Nile fever germs and botulism to Iraq right up until March 1992, as well as germs similar to tuberculosis and pneumonia. Other bacteria sold included brucella melitensis, which damages major organs, and clostridium perfringens, which causes gas gangrene.




Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on April 01, 2020, 02:39:27 PM
Nothing to see here.  Move on.

https://nypost.com/2020/04/01/whistleblowing-coronavirus-doctor-mysteriously-vanishes/amp/ (https://nypost.com/2020/04/01/whistleblowing-coronavirus-doctor-mysteriously-vanishes/amp/)
Whistleblowing coronavirus doctor at Wuhan hospital mysteriously vanishes

https://www.nationalreview.com/news/dr-birx-claims-u-s-was-slow-to-respond-to-coronavirus-outbreak-because-china-withheld-a-significant-amount-of-data/ (https://www.nationalreview.com/news/dr-birx-claims-u-s-was-slow-to-respond-to-coronavirus-outbreak-because-china-withheld-a-significant-amount-of-data/)
Dr. Birx Claims U.S. Was Slow to Respond to Coronavirus Outbreak Because China Withheld a ‘Significant Amount of Data’

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2020/04/01/coronavirus-china-hid-extent-of-outbreak-us-intelligence-reportedly-says.html (https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2020/04/01/coronavirus-china-hid-extent-of-outbreak-us-intelligence-reportedly-says.html)
China hid extent of coronavirus outbreak, US intelligence reportedly says
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: Prepper456 on April 01, 2020, 03:48:48 PM

Dr. Birx Claims U.S. Was Slow to Respond to Coronavirus Outbreak Because China Withheld a ‘Significant Amount of Data’

China hid extent of coronavirus outbreak, US intelligence reportedly says

U.S. intelligence agencies were issuing ominous, classified warnings in January and February about the global danger posed by the coronavirus while President Trump and lawmakers played down the threat and failed to take action that might have slowed the spread of the pathogen, according to U.S. officials familiar with spy agency reporting.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/us-intelligence-reports-from-january-and-february-warned-about-a-likely-pandemic/2020/03/20/299d8cda-6ad5-11ea-b5f1-a5a804158597_story.html


Trump on Tuesday said he knew from the start that thousands of Americans could die from the novel coronavirus but downplayed the threat

At Tuesday's White House press briefing, Trump was asked whether he lulled Americans into a false sense of security by telling the public that the virus would go away quickly, even as it was clear the number of cases and death toll were on the rise.

"I knew everything. I knew it could be horrible, I knew it could be maybe good," Trump said.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/trump-admits-downplayed-coronavirus-i-knew-it-could-be-horrible-2020-3%3famp
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on April 01, 2020, 04:09:35 PM
China has purged all research of Wuhan bat virus researcher who brought bat viruses to Wuhan and experimented on them just outside the market.  China has refused to allow international scientists from reviewing lab notes or samples.  He is now also missing.

https://amp.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/mar/30/china-researchers-isolated-bat-coronaviruses-near-/ (https://amp.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/mar/30/china-researchers-isolated-bat-coronaviruses-near-/)
Chinese researchers isolated deadly bat coronaviruses near Wuhan animal market

Chinese government researchers isolated more than 2,000 new viruses, including deadly bat coronaviruses, and carried out scientific work on them just three miles from a wild animal market identified as the epicenter of the COVID-19 pandemic.

Several Chinese state media outlets in recent months touted the virus research and lionized in particular a key researcher in Wuhan, Tian Junhua, as a leader in bat virus work.
...
Reports of the extensive Chinese research on bat viruses likely will fuel more calls for Beijing to make public what it knows about such work.
...
“This is one of the worst cover-ups in human history, and now the world is facing a global pandemic,” Rep. Michael T. McCaul, Texas Republican and ranking member of the House Foreign Affairs Committee, said last week. Mr. McCaul has said China should be held accountable for the pandemic.

A video posted online in December and funded by the Chinese government shows Mr. Tian inside caves in Hubei province taking samples from captured bats and storing them in vials.
...
Chinese officials refused to provide samples of its coronavirus strains to U.S. researchers shortly after the outbreak became public and did not allow international disease specialists to visit Wuhan for weeks.
...
The seven-minute film boasts that China has “taken the lead” in global virus research and uncovered over 2,000 viruses in the past 12 years, the time since the outbreak of the bat-origin virus that causes severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS).

The deadly virus behind the current pandemic is called SARS Coronavirus-2 and also has been traced to bats.
...
Chinese state media outlets revealed that Mr. Tian once failed to wear protective gear in a cave and as a result came into contact with bat urine. To avoid contracting a disease, he self-quarantined for 14 days — the same recommended period for people exposed to the new COVID-19 strain.
...
Mr. Tian has gathered thousands of bats for research work on bat viruses since 2012.

“Bats have a large number of unknown viruses on their bodies,” he said. “The more thorough our research on bats is, the better it will be for human health.
...
The Wuhan report said the collection of research samples was difficult, dangerous and hard to fund.
....
A search of the Wuhan CDC website since the novel coronavirus outbreak contains no reference to Mr. Tian or his work. He has co-authored at least two scientific studies on the Wuhan virus and its impact.

Efforts to reach Mr. Tian were not successful.

A spokesman for the Chinese Embassy in Washington did not return an email seeking comment.

U.S. concerns

A State Department official said the reports about Mr. Tian and his role in working with bat viruses are concerning.

“He lives and works at Wuhan’s CDC, a few hundred yards away from the Huanan wet market,” the official said. “He is among the small team in Wuhan that has contributed to China’s obsession in recent years with virus hunting and research.”]
...
Biosecurity researcher Richard Ebright, a Rutgers University professor at the Waksman Institute of Microbiology, said the coronavirus behind the pandemic is 96.2% similar to a bat virus discovered by the Wuhan Institute of Virology in 2013 and studied at the Wuhan CDC. The virus could have jumped naturally from animal to human but also could have escaped from the lab, he said.
...
Mr. Ebright said the Chinese video shows Wuhan CDC workers under Mr. Tian’s direction with inadequate personal protective equipment and unsafe practices, including exposed faces and wrists and a lack of goggles or face shields
...
“They write about collecting SARS-like coronaviruses from horseshoe bats and proving that, like the SARS virus itself, some of these other naturally occurring coronaviruses could infect human beings directly,” Mr. Mosher said. “They write about genetically engineering new and deadly viruses capable of infecting human lung tissue — just like the Wuhan flu does.”
...
“China claims that the deadly virus did not escape from its biolab,” Mr. Mosher said. “Fine. Prove it by releasing the research records of the Wuhan lab.”
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: CandyGram4Mongo on April 02, 2020, 07:06:11 AM
Excellent yt video about origins in the Wuhan lab.  He steps through a timeline showing the trail of breadcrumbs along the way.
 https://youtu.be/bpQFCcSI0pU (https://youtu.be/bpQFCcSI0pU)

h/t to the feral irishman
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: LvsChant on April 03, 2020, 06:27:52 PM
Interesting article: https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/04/coronavirus-china-trail-leading-back-to-wuhan-labs/

H/T Stefan Molyneaux
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on April 06, 2020, 10:24:32 PM
Pretty much every government believes this now.  But it seems to take high level politicians getting ill for them to act on it.

https://news.yahoo.com/boris-johnsons-government-reportedly-believes-115000701.html (https://news.yahoo.com/boris-johnsons-government-reportedly-believes-115000701.html)
Boris Johnson's government reportedly believes the coronavirus may have accidentally leaked from a Chinese laboratory

The UK government believes the coronavirus may have accidentally leaked from a laboratory in Wuhan where Chinese scientists were researching the virus, according to a Mail on Sunday newspaper report.
...
The reports come as Prime Minister Johnson is admitted to hospital for "persistent symptoms" of the coronavirus.

Johnson was admitted to a London hospital on Sunday where he received oxygen treatment and remained for tests on Monday.
...
A report by the UK Parliament's Foreign Affairs Committee published on Monday accused the Chinese government of spreading "disinformation" about the spread of the virus.

"Disinformation about COVID-19 has already cost lives," the committee found.

"It is essential that the Government issues clear and transparent messages at home to confront and rebut disinformation spread by foreign powers."
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on April 07, 2020, 01:37:30 PM
Top trending video on youtube: from Sky News Australia.  Guess the bat is out of the bag.

https://youtu.be/CIHWaaJNktQ (https://youtu.be/CIHWaaJNktQ)
Evidence mounts COVID-19 came from a lab in Wuhan
570,640 views
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: Mr. Bill on April 08, 2020, 01:07:02 PM
US intelligence knew about the Wuhan coronavirus outbreak in late November.

ABC, 4/8/20: Intelligence report warned of coronavirus crisis as early as November: Sources (https://www.goodmorningamerica.com/news/story/intelligence-report-warned-coronavirus-crisis-early-november-sources-70031273)

Quote
As far back as late November, U.S. intelligence officials were warning that a contagion was sweeping through China’s Wuhan region, changing the patterns of life and business and posing a threat to the population, according to four sources briefed on the secret reporting.

Concerns about what is now known to be the novel coronavirus pandemic were detailed in a November intelligence report by the military's National Center for Medical Intelligence (NCMI), according to two officials familiar with the document’s contents.

The report was the result of analysis of wire and computer intercepts, coupled with satellite images. ...

"Analysts concluded it could be a cataclysmic event," one of the sources said of the NCMI’s report. "It was then briefed multiple times to" the Defense Intelligence Agency, the Pentagon’s Joint Staff and the White House. ...

From that warning in November, the sources described repeated briefings through December for policy-makers and decision-makers across the federal government as well as the National Security Council at the White House. All of that culminated with a detailed explanation of the problem that appeared in the President’s Daily Brief of intelligence matters in early January, the sources said. For something to have appeared in the PDB, it would have had to go through weeks of vetting and analysis, according to people who have worked on presidential briefings in both Republican and Democratic administrations. ...
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on April 08, 2020, 10:27:23 PM
US intelligence knew about the Wuhan coronavirus outbreak in late November.

ABC, 4/8/20: Intelligence report warned of coronavirus crisis as early as November: Sources (https://www.goodmorningamerica.com/news/story/intelligence-report-warned-coronavirus-crisis-early-november-sources-70031273)

Pentagon denies report:

A defense official denied any such report existed, telling CNN, "NCMI and the Defense Intelligence Agency spent considerable time over the last 24 hours examining every possible product that could have been identified as related to this topic and have found no such product."

The Pentagon also issued a statement denying the ABC News report late Wednesday.

"As a matter of practice the National Center for Medical Intelligence does not comment publicly on specific intelligence matters. However, in the interest of transparency during this current public health crisis, we can confirm that media reporting about the existence/release of a National Center for Medical Intelligence Coronavirus-related product/assessment in November of 2019 is not correct. No such NCMI product exists," Colonel Dr. R. Shane Day, director of the National Center for Medical Intelligence, said.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: Mr. Bill on April 09, 2020, 08:03:12 AM
Great, so now we've merely confirmed that somebody is lying on one side or the other.  Another typical day in DC.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on April 09, 2020, 09:36:06 AM
Great, so now we've merely confirmed that somebody is lying on one side or the other.  Another typical day in DC.

Both may be mostly correct.  That is, they may have known something was going on in late November but it didnt make it into the report then because they didnt know what it was.  It may be the case that this November info then began push up the chain in an early December report. 
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on April 11, 2020, 10:19:11 AM
Reports now coming out that communists in WHO blocked travel ban called for by doctors in alignment with protocols. 

https://youtu.be/FIVT5sg0bfE (https://youtu.be/FIVT5sg0bfE)
World Health Organisation 'blocked' travel ban calls from experts over COVID-19
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on April 13, 2020, 01:42:59 PM
Nothing to see here.  Just move on.

https://news.yahoo.com/china-implements-restrictions-academic-research-134122682.html (https://news.yahoo.com/china-implements-restrictions-academic-research-134122682.html)
China Implements New Restrictions on Academic Research into Coronavirus Origins

China has imposed new restrictions on academic research into the origins of COVID-19, CNN reported on Monday.

The new set of guidelines directs that “academic papers about tracing the origin of the virus must be strictly and tightly managed.” Papers must be submitted to a task force appointed by the State Council, the country’s administrative authority, in order to obtain approval for publication in academic journals.

The guidelines were first published on the website of Fudan University in Shanghai on Friday, and subsequently on the website of the China University of Geoscience in Wuhan, where the coronavirus originated. Both notices were subsequently taken down, although a cached version of the University of Geoscience’s notice remains accessible. A staff member for China’s Education Ministry confirmed that the ministry’s science and technology department had issued the order.

“It is not supposed to be made public — it is an internal document,” the staff member told CNN. Chinese researchers also told the network that the new guidelines had been put in place
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on April 14, 2020, 06:35:44 AM
Conditions and safety protocols were so bad at lab that emergency letters were sent by embassy staff two years ago warning that a breach was imminent.  These need to be shut down ASAP.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/04/14/state-department-cables-warned-safety-issues-wuhan-lab-studying-bat-coronaviruses/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/04/14/state-department-cables-warned-safety-issues-wuhan-lab-studying-bat-coronaviruses/)
State Department cables warned of safety issues at Wuhan lab studying bat coronaviruses

Two years before the novel coronavirus pandemic upended the world, U.S. Embassy officials visited a Chinese research facility in the city of Wuhan several times and sent two official warnings back to Washington about inadequate safety at the lab, which was conducting risky studies on coronaviruses from bats. The cables have fueled discussions inside the U.S. government about whether this or another Wuhan lab was the source of the virus
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on April 14, 2020, 05:11:05 PM
I am sure UK, Australia, and several other countries will join on.  Not one penny should be given to WHO until it does its regulatory job and demands China release the lab documents.  This coverup must end.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/04/14/politics/donald-trump-world-health-organization-funding-coronavirus/index.html (https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/04/14/politics/donald-trump-world-health-organization-funding-coronavirus/index.html)
Trump halts World Health Organization funding over handling of coronavirus outbreak

President Donald Trump announced Tuesday he is halting funding to the World Health Organization while a review is conducted.

Trump said the review would cover the WHO's "role in severely mismanaging and covering up the spread of coronavirus."
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on April 14, 2020, 07:46:57 PM
https://news.yahoo.com/amphtml/intelligence-officials-weigh-possibility-coronavirus-escaped-from-a-chinese-lab-194958353.html (https://news.yahoo.com/amphtml/intelligence-officials-weigh-possibility-coronavirus-escaped-from-a-chinese-lab-194958353.html)
Intelligence officials weigh possibility coronavirus escaped from a Chinese lab

Although the the U.S. intelligence community early on dismissed the notion that the coronavirus is a synthesized bioweapon, it is still weighing the possibility that the pandemic might have been touched off by an accident at a research facility rather than by an infection from a live-animal market, according to nine current and former intelligence and national security officials familiar with ongoing investigations.

After extensive research, scientists in the U.S. and elsewhere have determined that the new strain of the coronavirus discovered in China in December is, as Chinese officials have maintained, of natural origin, but they are taking seriously that its route to human infection may have started in a lab in Wuhan.

“It’s definitely a real possibility being bandied about at the high levels of the administration,” said one of the sources, who has knowledge of China and national security.
...
scientists have not traced the initial exposure back to any specific animals. Therefore, an alternative possibility remains — that a natural virus sample being studied at a research laboratory in Wuhan infected a researcher who spread it in the community, or it escaped via hazardous waste or a lab animal. 
...
While the intelligence community is not discounting a range of potential transmission vectors, including contact between humans and animals, officials are seriously pursuing the possibility that a natural sample of the virus escaped a laboratory.

“It’s absolutely being looked at very closely at the highest levels,” said one intelligence source with knowledge of the investigations. The British government is reportedly considering the same possibility.

One reason for the suspicion is the lack of information coming from China. Beijing’s quick denials of involvement, and the decision to immediately identify the Wuhan Seafood Market as the source, raised eyebrows among some U.S. intelligence officials.

“I find it very funny that China very quickly blamed the market,” said one recently retired intelligence official.

The Chinese government did not respond to multiple requests for comment made through its foreign ministry and its embassy in the U.S.

In fact, some of the very first cases of COVID-19 were not linked to the market, and there are a number of important research institutions in Wuhan where infectious diseases are studied.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on April 14, 2020, 07:53:57 PM
https://youtube.com/watch?v=0SVJ9UHK6wU (https://youtube.com/watch?v=0SVJ9UHK6wU)
Why did we give millions to risky Wuhan lab? Rep. Gaetz demands US stop funding Chinese research labs
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: Morning Sunshine on April 14, 2020, 08:32:41 PM
https://youtube.com/watch?v=0SVJ9UHK6wU (https://youtube.com/watch?v=0SVJ9UHK6wU)
Why did we give millions to risky Wuhan lab? Rep. Gaetz demands US stop funding Chinese research labs

we give a lot of money to anyone and everyone who wants it.  I was honestly NOT surprised by this.  anyone with an agenda slips a few hundred thousand to a congress clown, and the congress clown slips 25 million into a bill to fund a pet project; usually a bill totally unrelated to the project in question.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on April 15, 2020, 06:28:30 AM
https://www.newsweek.com/international-policy-experts-blast-chinas-coronavirus-coverup-call-it-their-chernobyl-moment-1497839 (https://www.newsweek.com/international-policy-experts-blast-chinas-coronavirus-coverup-call-it-their-chernobyl-moment-1497839)
INTERNATIONAL POLICY EXPERTS BLAST CHINA'S CORONAVIRUS COVERUP, CALL IT THEIR 'CHERNOBYL MOMENT'

A group of international policy experts and politicians strongly criticized China's government in an open letter about its coverup and mishandling of the coronavirus pandemic, referring to the botched response as a "Chernobyl moment."

The letter was published Tuesday on the website of Canada's Macdonald-Laurier Institute, a national public policy think tank based in Ottawa. It was signed by more than 100 policy experts, lawmakers and academics who hail largely from North America, Europe and Oceania.

"While the exact source and spread of the virus are not clear yet the question of origin is highly important, for the people of China and for all humankind: only by understanding how this global disaster could emerge we can prevent it from happening again," the letter argued.

It went on to say that the origins of the global pandemic "are in a cover-up by CCP [Chinese Communist Party] authorities in Wuhan, Hubei province."
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on April 15, 2020, 06:34:15 AM
https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/an-unnerving-review-of-accidents-in-high-level-labs-handling-viruses/amp/ (https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/an-unnerving-review-of-accidents-in-high-level-labs-handling-viruses/amp/)
An Unnerving Review of Accidents in High-Level Labs Handling Viruses

Two facilities in the city of Wuhan were researching coronaviruses in bats — the Wuhan Institute of Virology, and the Wuhan Center for Disease Control and Prevention.

The Wuhan Institute of Virology is China’s first biocontainment level-4 facility, inaugurated in 2015. It is still the country’s only one.

Professor Richard Ebright of Rutgers University’s Waksman Institute of Microbiology, told the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists last month that “bat coronaviruses at Wuhan [Center for Disease Control] and Wuhan Institute of Virology routinely were collected and studied at BSL-2, which provides only minimal protections against infection of lab workers.”
...
Lynn Klotz, a senior science fellow at the Center for Arms Control and Non-Proliferation, laid out a report suggesting that human errors at these sorts of labs not only had occurred, but occurred unnervingly frequently.

Incidents causing potential exposures to pathogens occur frequently in the high security laboratories often known by their acronyms, BSL3 (Biosafety Level 3) and BSL4. Lab incidents that lead to undetected or unreported laboratory-acquired infections can lead to the release of a disease into the community outside the lab; lab workers with such infections will leave work carrying the pathogen with them. If the agent involved were a potential pandemic pathogen, such a community release could lead to a worldwide pandemic with many fatalities.

Such releases are fairly likely over time, as there are at least 14 labs (mostly in Asia) now carrying out this research. Whatever release probability the world is gambling with, it is clearly far too high a risk to human lives. Mammal-transmissible bird flu research poses a real danger of a worldwide pandemic that could kill human beings on a vast scale.

Human error is the main cause of potential exposures of lab workers to pathogens. Statistical data from two sources show that human error was the cause of, according to my research, 67 percent and 79.3 percent of incidents leading to potential exposures in BSL3 labs. These percentages come from analysis of years of incident data from the Federal Select Agent Program (FSAP) and from the National Institutes of Health (NIH).

Klotz described needle sticks and other through the skin exposures from sharp objects; dropped containers or spills and splashes of liquids containing pathogens; bites or scratches from infected animals; pathogens manipulated outside of a biosafety cabinet or other equipment designed to protect exposures to infectious aerosols; failure to follow safety procedures; failure or problems with personal protective equipment; mechanical or equipment failure; and failure to properly inactivate pathogens before transferring them to a lower biosafety level lab for further research. There are plenty of real-life examples for every medical menace in every Robin Cook novel. And this is separate from the other frightening examples of lab accidents laid out last week.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on April 15, 2020, 03:56:43 PM
We should have Australia lead the independent investigation.  They have really been on top of things and would be a good liaison given their strong ties to both the East and West.

https://youtu.be/qNk1ldRb7dY (https://youtu.be/qNk1ldRb7dY)
China must explain 'coronavirus catastrophe'
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on April 15, 2020, 09:48:36 PM
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/coronavirus-wuhan-lab-china-compete-us-sources.amp (https://www.foxnews.com/politics/coronavirus-wuhan-lab-china-compete-us-sources.amp)
Sources believe coronavirus originated in Wuhan lab as part of China's efforts to compete with US

There is increasing confidence that COVID-19 likely originated in a Wuhan laboratory not as a bioweapon, but as part of China's effort to demonstrate that its efforts to identify and combat viruses are equal to or greater than the capabilities of the United States, multiple sources who have been briefed on the details of early actions by China's government and seen relevant materials tell Fox News.

This may be the "costliest government coverup of all time," one of the sources said.

The sources believe the initial transmission of the virus was bat-to-human, and that "patient zero" worked at the laboratory, then went into the population in Wuhan.

The “increasing confidence” comes from classified and open-source documents and evidence, the sources said. Fox  News has requested to see the evidence directly.

Asked by Fox News' John Roberts about the reporting, President Trump remarked at Wednesday's coronavirus press briefing, "More and more we're hearing the story...we are doing a very thorough examination of this horrible situation."

Documents detail early efforts by doctors at the lab and early efforts at containment. The Wuhan wet market initially identified as a possible point of origin never sold bats, and the sources tell Fox News that blaming the wet market was an effort by China to deflect blame from the laboratory, along with the country's propaganda efforts targeting the U.S. and Italy.

U.S. Embassy officials warned in January 2018 about inadequate safety at the Wuhan Institute of Virology lab and passed on information about scientists conducting risky research on coronavirus from bats, The Washington Post reported Tuesday.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: LvsChant on April 16, 2020, 10:02:55 AM
Does this mean we aren't in the tinfoil hat brigade anymore???
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: Mr. Bill on April 16, 2020, 11:28:57 AM
Does this mean we aren't in the tinfoil hat brigade anymore???

Not quite yet.  It just means that unnamed "multiple sources who have been briefed on the details of early actions by China's government and seen relevant materials" have said something.

But I think this description of events is plausible.

The sources believe the initial transmission of the virus was bat-to-human, and that "patient zero" worked at the laboratory, then went into the population in Wuhan.

This sentence has been updated in the story.  It now reads:

Quote
The sources believe the initial transmission of the virus – a naturally occurring strain that was being studied there – was bat-to-human and that "patient zero" worked at the laboratory, then went into the population in Wuhan.

So we're still in the same place, sorta.  These sources say the strain was naturally-occuring, and research has shown that it could have arisen naturally.  So the remaining question is, did it pass from animals to humans outside the lab, or via a lab employee (or both)?
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on April 17, 2020, 08:24:56 AM
No conspiracy here. The communist party has been completely above board on all of this.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/17/world/asia/china-wuhan-coronavirus-death-toll.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/17/world/asia/china-wuhan-coronavirus-death-toll.html)
China Raises Coronavirus Death Toll by 50% in Wuhan
Officials facing skepticism about their credibility also bumped up their tally of infections in the city where the pandemic emerged.


China on Friday raised its coronavirus death toll by 50 percent in Wuhan, the city where the outbreak first emerged, amid accusations that the government had concealed the extent of the epidemic.

Officials placed the new tally at 3,869 deaths from the coronavirus in the central Chinese city, an increase of 1,290 from the previous figure. The number of cumulative confirmed infections in the city was also revised upward to 50,333, an increase of 325.

The move appeared to be a response to growing questions about the accuracy of China’s official numbers and calls to hold the country responsible for a global health crisis that has killed more than 142,000 people and caused a worldwide economic slowdown.

China has been criticized as having initially mismanaged and concealed the extent of the epidemic
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on April 17, 2020, 08:56:38 AM
Not quite yet.  It just means that unnamed "multiple sources who have been briefed on the details of early actions by China's government and seen relevant materials" have said something.

But now it is able to be discussed on youtube and facebook without repurcussions. So the greater populous can see informed discussion not just the chinese communist propaganda.

https://youtu.be/IpPgqPLFEXY (https://youtu.be/IpPgqPLFEXY)
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: Mr. Bill on April 17, 2020, 10:57:54 AM
Here's something I'd really like to know.  Recall we've got other unnamed sources who claim that US intelligence knew about a viral outbreak in the Wuhan area by late November.  Suppose this is true.  What does it say about the path (or multiple paths) of infection spread?  Who was sick in mid-to-late November, and where were they?  In the city?  In rural areas?  Because maybe "patient zero" was in some small village in early November, and that's why Chinese researchers at the lab were scrambling to research the virus by December.

The lab is still a plausible source for the spread to the city, but maybe they were just one focal point for a virus that was already spreading on its own.

Of course, China will never tell us about any of this.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: mountainmoma on April 17, 2020, 11:50:43 AM
Here's something I'd really like to know.  Recall we've got other unnamed sources who claim that US intelligence knew about a viral outbreak in the Wuhan area by late November.  Suppose this is true.  What does it say about the path (or multiple paths) of infection spread?  Who was sick in mid-to-late November, and where were they?  In the city?  In rural areas?  Because maybe "patient zero" was in some small village in early November, and that's why Chinese researchers at the lab were scrambling to research the virus by December.

The lab is still a plausible source for the spread to the city, but maybe they were just one focal point for a virus that was already spreading on its own.

Of course, China will never tell us about any of this.

Governor  Newsom, California, had our health departments go thru the data and in California there is no difference in cases or cases mortality based on race.  The racial composition is in line with the population of California.

That is a fact, now we can speculate, the first step to developing theories.

What might be a difference then in Detroit or Chicago or other big cities ?  We are back to lifestyle, diet, obesity, etc... and also potentially Vit D deficiency since we have less of that in CA and it is harder to get enough naturally if dark skinned in Northern areas of the USA.  While that is true, I have not seen any link with COVID-19, but just putting that out there as one difference due to the geography/race overlap.  Another geographical difference could be pollutants.  Not saying CA doesnt have any, but they are likely different.  Our hardest hit area, L.A. county has our worst air pollution.  SOme of the inland counties have it bad in summer, so we will see.

Also our larger population areas are overall warmer than the large cities in other areas, and in that, not about virus spread but that the people and their homes are not fighting off the cold.  It is hard to get better if you are cold and it can be a drain on the immune system, that and lack of sunlight.  Wuhan China does not have heat supplied to its apartment blocks,  even their quarantine field hospitals they set up, you could see the healthcare workers in down coats.  Not saying richer people there may not have heat, but it is not the norm. 
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: LvsChant on April 18, 2020, 06:31:52 AM
From some of the reports I saw, the type of bat that is a natural carrier for this type of virus resides in caves hundreds of miles from Wuhan. I watched a documentary showing a researcher on a bat-gathering trip (prior to the outbreak). They gathered the bats and took them for research to the Wuhan lab, iirc.

Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on April 18, 2020, 08:20:57 AM
Here's something I'd really like to know.  Recall we've got other unnamed sources who claim that US intelligence knew about a viral outbreak in the Wuhan area by late November.  Suppose this is true.  What does it say about the path (or multiple paths) of infection spread?  Who was sick in mid-to-late November, and where were they?  In the city?  In rural areas?  Because maybe "patient zero" was in some small village in early November, and that's why Chinese researchers at the lab were scrambling to research the virus by December.

The lab is still a plausible source for the spread to the city, but maybe they were just one focal point for a virus that was already spreading on its own.

Of course, China will never tell us about any of this.

Here is a summary of the general timeline as is now being laid out:

Two lab workers became infected in November at the lab. They passed it on to at least 12 other people including the one's girlfriend who became a superspreader.  By Decmber 8 Wuhan's Jinyintan Hospital had seven pnuemonia patients of unknown origin including the girlfriend whose viral count was off the chart. These were quaranteened and samples taken to an independent medical lab for identification of virus.  They reported it was an unknown (to them, it was known by the research lab) SARs-like coronavirus and the doctor in charge tried to warn the public but was rebuked. The next week an elderly husband and wife who owned a popular establishment at the Wuhan Seafood Market was brought in.  They apparently spread it to dozens more.  On January, 23 they had about 100 such cases at the hospital including a half dozen of the hospital staff one of which was the whistleblowing doctor who later died.  At that time the military descended around the city and it was completely locked down (except for travel to foreign countries by air!)

US intelligence agencies had been closely monitoring the biolab since 2015 because of concerns of safety.  In 2016 and 2017 they noted several major breaches.  In January 2018 teams of US scientists were brought in by embassy to assess situation.  They confirmed the lab was a ticking bomb and were especially alarmed by the dangerous bat coronaviruses which were being treated in a blase manner. They sent memos back to Washington asking for help addressing with the Chinese government. In late November 2019 the intelligence agents saw frantic activity at the lab suggesting a major breach had occured, this included a lab lockdown and testing of staff.  Mlitary personnel descended and the lab was taken over by them.  They also observed starting in December bodies being quietly removed from the Jinyintan hospital and quickly cremated. Wuhan social media was abuzz.  This information started making its way into briefing reports.  But China was on full propaganda mode including using WHO to pass on false information.  On January 14 WHO issued statements saying the coronavirus could not be transmitted person to person.  They also used their influence with the Bllomberg network and CNN to push this which started the fake seafood market narrative.  Based on confirmation of first US cases in last week of January, Trump ordered flights cut off from China.  Again the US media was used as a pawn by China.  So while China had completely locked down internal travel from Wuhan, they were allowing people there to spread it to other parts of the world.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: surfivor on April 18, 2020, 12:08:53 PM

 Man who discovered AIDS adds his opinion

https://asiatimes.com/2020/04/french-prof-sparks-furor-with-lab-leak-theory/

A theory put forward by French professor Luc Montagnier — award-winning co-discoverer of the AIDS virus but also mocked by some colleagues for some outrageous theories — has sparked a scientific firestorm.

According to the Nobel Prize winner in Medicine, a man used to controversy, the SARS-CoV-2 virus is the result of an attempt to manufacture a vaccine against the AIDS virus, Agence France Presse reported.

Montagnier says the presence of elements of HIV in the genome of the new virus and even elements of the “germ of malaria” are highly suspect, the report said. Interviewed on the French CNews channel, he said the characteristics of the new coronavirus could not have arisen naturally.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: Hurricane on April 18, 2020, 08:46:25 PM
So while China had completely locked down internal travel from Wuhan, they were allowing people there to spread it to other parts of the world.
Allowing?
Encouraging? Not letting a crisis go to waste?

I can believe the original incident may have been an honest lab mishap, but perhaps it was taken advantage of?
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on April 19, 2020, 05:33:15 PM
Nothing to see here.  Just move on.

https://news.yahoo.com/china-implements-restrictions-academic-research-134122682.html (https://news.yahoo.com/china-implements-restrictions-academic-research-134122682.html)
China Implements New Restrictions on Academic Research into Coronavirus Origins

https://www.sciencetimes.com/amp/articles/25285/20200413/china-study-claiming-coronavirus-came-wuhan-labs-allegedly-removed-internet.htm (https://www.sciencetimes.com/amp/articles/25285/20200413/china-study-claiming-coronavirus-came-wuhan-labs-allegedly-removed-internet.htm)
China Study Claiming Coronavirus Came From Wuhan Labs Allegedly Removed From the Internet

a recent Chinese research paper that was showing how the coronavirus originated from a Wuhan biolab and not from bats being sold at the market had just been censored by communist authorities from online publication.
...
The missing paper was said to be written by Botao Xiao as well as Lei Xiao from South China University of Technology. The paper was titled "The Possible Origins of the 2019-n-CoV coronavirus" and confirmed that the virus did not, in fact, come from horseshoe bats that were being sold in the Wuhan market.
...
the authors of "The Possible Origins" paper were able to trace the virus to two different Wuhan institutes. The researchers said that "Within 280 meters from the market, there was the Wuhan Center for Disease Control and Prevention (WHCDC). WHCDC hosted animals in laboratories for research purposes, one of which was specialized in pathogens collection and identification."

The Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV) located seven miles away was also reported to have been conducting research on the same bats.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on April 23, 2020, 02:00:08 PM
https://nypost.com/2020/04/23/china-blocking-us-scientists-from-examining-coronavirus-pompeo/amp/ (https://nypost.com/2020/04/23/china-blocking-us-scientists-from-examining-coronavirus-pompeo/amp/)
China continues to block US scientists from examining coronavirus

“Even today, the Chinese government hasn’t permitted American scientists to go into China, to go into not only the Wuhan lab or wherever it needs to go to learn about this virus, to learn about its origins,”
...
“Look, we know it began at one [lab], but we need to figure this out. There’s an ongoing pandemic. We still don’t have the transparency and openness we need in China.”

Pompeo also maintained his criticism of the World Health Organization for its failure to ensure the Chinese Communist Party reported accurate numbers so that the world could have taken the necessary precautions when the pandemic was in its early stages.

“It is the World Health Organization’s responsibility to achieve that transparency. They’re not doing it. They need to be held accountable,” he said. “And what’s been great is to see other countries around the world to begin to recognize the WHO failures as well.”
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on April 26, 2020, 10:16:35 PM
We should have Australia lead the independent investigation.  They have really been on top of things and would be a good liaison given their strong ties to both the East and West.

Australia has anounced it will lead calls for an independent investigation, asking to have lab inspections in China the same way as is done by weapons of mass destruction inspectors.  China immediately denounced any independent investigation of lab and there are reports they have been destroying all lab records and specimins. Recently they have taken down all images from the lab, many which show severe safety issues.  WHO cant afford (literally) to deny the calls, no matter what its communist leader says. 

https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/australianz/australia-says-all-who-members-should-participate-in-a-coronavirus-inquiry (https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/australianz/australia-says-all-who-members-should-participate-in-a-coronavirus-inquiry)
Australia to pursue coronavirus investigation at World Health Assembly

Australia will push for an international investigation into the coronavirus pandemic at next month’s annual meeting of the World Health Assembly, the decision-making body of the World Health Organisation (WHO), its prime minister said on Thursday (April 23).

Australia wants the WHO to be strengthened and is suggesting introducing inspectors with the power to enter a country to respond more quickly to a health crisis in the style of weapons inspectors.

Australia sits on the executive board of the assembly, which determines WHO policies and appoints the director-general. The assembly is due to meet on May 17.
...
China has criticised Australia’s call for an investigation as “political manipulation”
...
"The so-called independent inquiry proposed by Australia is in reality political manipulation," said China’s foreign ministry spokesman Geng Shuang, speaking at a daily news briefing in Beijing on Thursday. "We advise Australia to give up its ideological prejudices," he said.


Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on April 27, 2020, 04:55:11 PM
After hack of Wuhan lab's emails, mainstream publications like newsweek are now releasing articles on gain of function research that occured at the lab.  Before they claimed this research didnt happen and was just 'conspiracy theory'.  Now they appear to be preparing public for recognition of the numerous independent studies from around the world that showed COVID-19 is a naturally occuring bat virus modified by "overzealous" scientists to increase its ability to infect humans.

https://www.newsweek.com/controversial-wuhan-lab-experiments-that-may-have-started-coronavirus-pandemic-1500503 (https://www.newsweek.com/controversial-wuhan-lab-experiments-that-may-have-started-coronavirus-pandemic-1500503)
THE CONTROVERSIAL WUHAN LAB EXPERIMENTS THAT MAY HAVE STARTED THE CORONAVIRUS PANDEMIC

(https://d.newsweek.com/en/full/1585050/wuhan-institute-virology-covid-19-coronavirus-lab.webp?w=600&q=75&f=7b36acc7d6225368bace1933c95ecd36)
The coronavirus pandemic may be a result of controversial experiments inside the Wuhan Institute of Virology, as U.S. intelligence now concedes. Chinese virologist Shi Zhengli inside the P4 laboratory in Wuhan, China, on February 23, 2017. - . (Photo by Johannes EISELE / AFP) (Photo by JOHANNES EISELE/AFP via Getty Images)


Just one day after the U.S. surpassed China to become the country with the highest number of Covid-19 cases, the U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency updated its assessment of the origin of the novel coronavirus to reflect that it may have been accidentally released from an infectious diseases lab, Newsweek has learned.

The report, dated March 27 and corroborated by two U.S. officials, reveals that U.S. intelligence revised its January assessment in which it "judged that the outbreak probably occurred naturally" to now include the possibility that the new coronavirus emerged "accidentally" due to "unsafe laboratory practices" in the central Chinese city of Wuhan, where the pathogen was first observed late last year.
...
in early February, China's Academy for Military Medical Sciences "concluded that it was impossible for them to scientifically determine whether the Covid-19 outbreak was caused naturally or accidentally from a laboratory incident," according to the DIA document.
...
U.S. government and Chinese researchers that found "about 33 percent of the original 41 identified cases did not have direct exposure" to the market. That, along with what's known of the laboratory's work in past few years, raised reasonable suspicion that the pandemic may have been caused by a lab error, not the wet market.
...
The Wuhan Institute has a record of shoddy practices that could conceivably lead to an accidental release, as officials at the U.S. Embassy in Beijing reportedly warned in a cable on January 19, 2018. "During interactions with scientists at the WIV laboratory, they noted the new lab has a serious shortage of appropriately trained technicians and investigators needed to safely operate this high-containment laboratory," states the cable, according to the Washington Post.
...
The circumstantial evidence is strong enough to warrant putting the lab's programs and practices at heart of the investigation. And it's worth looking anew at whether scientists, in their efforts to protect the public from the threat of natural pathogens, overreached.
...
By the time the current pandemic hit, animal-passage experiments had become commonplace. Scientists in many of the more than 30 BSL-4 labs around the world had used them to enhance the transmissibility of respiratory-tract pathogens.
...
China's role

The Wuhan Institute of Virology is one of many labs to receive PREDICT funding. Shi Zheng-Li, a virologist known as "bat woman" for her group's work in collecting hundreds of coronaviruses, and her staff at the Institute explored the same bat caves that were thought to have given rise to the original SARS virus in 2002. Her scientists penetrated remote caves, swabbing bats' anuses and collecting their excretions. When they returned to the lab, they cultured the viruses they found, determined their genomic sequences and tried to determine how they infect cells and animals in the lab.

The Institute began a program of gain-of-function research into bat coronaviruses in 2015. That involved taking selected strains and seeking to increase the ability of those viruses to transmit from one person to another. The gain-of-function research went hand-in-hand with the surveillance project. As scientists identified new classes of bat viruses that have the ability to infect human cells, that raised the question of what changes would have to arise in nature to make that virus transmissible in humans, which would pose a pandemic threat.


Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: Mr. Bill on April 27, 2020, 06:09:04 PM
https://www.newsweek.com/controversial-wuhan-lab-experiments-that-may-have-started-coronavirus-pandemic-1500503 (https://www.newsweek.com/controversial-wuhan-lab-experiments-that-may-have-started-coronavirus-pandemic-1500503)
THE CONTROVERSIAL WUHAN LAB EXPERIMENTS THAT MAY HAVE STARTED THE CORONAVIRUS PANDEMIC

That's a well-written article.

I think they present the big question clearly: If the virus passed from bats to humans via one or more other animals, how could you tell the difference between animal passage in nature vs animal passage in the Wuhan lab?

Quote
... Jonathan Eisen, an evolutionary biologist at UC Davis, says that the preponderance of evidence, while not definitive, suggests that the virus came from nature, not a lab. "There's no hint there that there's something unnatural, that is, genetically engineered," he says. But "there is some wiggle room" in the findings that admits the possibility that the virus was concocted in a lab via animal passage. "Passaging is hard to test for. Escape from a lab is hard to test for," he says. "If [Wuhan researchers] collected something from the field and they were doing some experiments in the lab with it, and some person got infected and then it spread from there, that would be really hard to distinguish from it having spread in the field directly." ...

It's all circumstantial evidence until China releases the relevant data (i.e., 1000 years from now).
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on April 27, 2020, 08:21:04 PM
Circumstantial evidence is all that is needed for conviction.  But it is probably a mistake to assume that direct evidence isnt already in hand.  The Chinese werent the only ones monitoring the experiments in the lab, the French were involved.  There are also spparently many witnesses to the lab being locked down by military and Shi Zhengli being recalled from an industry conference in a panic. And reports of the email hack appear legit. 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/coronavirus-china-bars-safety-experts-from-wuhan-lab-brbm9rwtm (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/coronavirus-china-bars-safety-experts-from-wuhan-lab-brbm9rwtm)
Coronavirus: China bars safety experts from Wuhan lab

China prevented French experts from overseeing safety at its first high-security virus laboratory, which is now facing claims that it was the origin of the coronavirus pandemic, according to French officials.

The laboratory in the city of Wuhan, where the Covid-19 outbreak began last year, was the first in China to have a biosafety level 4 (BSL 4) rating, which is reserved for institutions working with potentially fatal agents. It was conducting research into coronaviruses, some derived from bats, from which the pathogen is thought to have originated.

The facility opened in 2015 after being built in partnership with France, which was meant to supply the technical expertise with 50 high-level French researchers due to work there between 2017 and 2022.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on April 27, 2020, 08:53:47 PM
https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/coronavirus-and-the-laboratories-in-wuhan-11587486996 (https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/coronavirus-and-the-laboratories-in-wuhan-11587486996)
Coronavirus and the Laboratories in Wuhan
Their researchers travel to caves across China, where they capture live bats to study viruses.


The U.S. government is investigating whether the Covid-19 virus came from a government laboratory in Wuhan, China. The Chinese Communist Party denies the possibility. “There is no way this virus came from us,” claimed Yuan Zhiming over the weekend. Mr. Yuan is a top researcher at the Wuhan Institute of Virology, which studies some of the world’s deadliest pathogens. He is also secretary of the lab’s Communist Party committee. He accuses me of “deliberately trying to mislead people” for suggesting his laboratory as a possible origin for the pandemic.
...
While the Chinese government denies the possibility of a lab leak, its actions tell a different story. The Chinese military posted its top epidemiologist to the Institute of Virology in January. In February Chairman Xi Jinping urged swift implementation of new biosafety rules to govern pathogens in laboratory settings. Academic papers about the virus’s origins are now subject to prior restraint by the government.

In early January, enforcers threatened doctors who warned their colleagues about the virus. Among them was Li Wenliang, who died of Covid-19 in February. Laboratories working to sequence the virus’s genetic code were ordered to destroy their samples. The laboratory that first published the virus’s genome was shut down, Hong Kong’s South China Morning Post reported in February.

This evidence is circumstantial, to be sure, but it all points toward the Wuhan labs. Thanks to the Chinese coverup, we may never have direct, conclusive evidence—intelligence rarely works that way—but Americans justifiably can use common sense to follow the inherent logic of events to their likely conclusion.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on April 28, 2020, 11:27:46 AM
So here is a huge issue.  Some bio-researchers are silently outsourcing research to shoddy offshore labs to skirt regulations and avoid costs associated with propper precautions. So, the US taxpayer ends up funding this craziness.  Imagine physicists outsourcing government nuclear development to Iran or North Korea.  That would be utterly insane.  But in the biosciences they are routinely doing this with things which are much more dangerous. 

https://nypost.com/2020/04/28/nih-investigating-wuhan-lab-at-center-of-coronavirus-pandemic/amp/ (https://nypost.com/2020/04/28/nih-investigating-wuhan-lab-at-center-of-coronavirus-pandemic/amp/)
NIH investigating Wuhan lab at center of coronavirus pandemic

The National Institutes of Health revealed it is investigating the Chinese lab where the coronavirus outbreak is speculated to have emerged, in a letter to a research facility that supplied US tax dollars to the lab, according to a report.
...
It is our understanding that one of the sub-recipients of the grant funds is the Wuhan Institute of Virology (‘WIV’). It is our understanding that WIV studies the interaction between corona viruses and bats. The scientific community believes that the coronavirus causing COVID-19 jumped from bats to humans likely in Wuhan where the COVID-19 pandemic began,”
...
“There are now allegations that the current crisis was precipitated by the release from WIV of the coronavirus responsible for COVID-19. Given these concerns, we are pursuing suspension of WIV from participation in Federal programs,” it continued.
...
“It is in the public interest that NIH ensure that a sub-recipient has taken all appropriate precautions to prevent the release of pathogens that it is studying,”
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on April 28, 2020, 09:30:11 PM
Oh what a tangle web we weave...  So Fauci has known all along that they were doing gain-of-function work, which many independent scientists have said there are clear indications of within COVID-19 (see numerous posts above).

https://www.newsweek.com/dr-fauci-backed-controversial-wuhan-lab-millions-us-dollars-risky-coronavirus-research-1500741 (https://www.newsweek.com/dr-fauci-backed-controversial-wuhan-lab-millions-us-dollars-risky-coronavirus-research-1500741)
DR. FAUCI BACKED CONTROVERSIAL WUHAN LAB WITH MILLIONS OF U.S. DOLLARS FOR RISKY CORONAVIRUS RESEARCH

just last year, the National Institute for Allergy and Infectious Diseases, the organization led by Dr. Fauci, funded scientists at the Wuhan Institute of Virology and other institutions for work on gain-of-function research on bat coronaviruses.

In 2019, with the backing of NIAID, the National Institutes of Health committed $3.7 million over six years for research that included some gain-of-function work. The program followed another $3.7 million, 5-year project for collecting and studying bat coronaviruses, which ended in 2019, bringing the total to $7.4 million.

Many scientists have criticized gain of function research, which involves manipulating viruses in the lab to explore their potential for infecting humans, because it creates a risk of starting a pandemic from accidental release.

SARS-CoV-2 , the virus now causing a global pandemic, is believed to have originated in bats. U.S. intelligence, after originally asserting that the coronavirus had occurred naturally, conceded last month that the pandemic may have originated in a leak from the Wuhan lab.
...
Dr. Fauci did not respond to Newsweek's requests for comment.
...
The NIH research consisted of two parts. The first part began in 2014 and involved surveillance of bat coronaviruses, and had a budget of $3.7 million. The program funded Shi Zheng-Li, a virologist at the Wuhan lab, and other researchers to investigate and catalogue bat coronaviruses in the wild. This part of the project was completed in 2019.

A second phase of the project, beginning that year, included additional surveillance work but also gain-of-function research for the purpose of understanding how bat coronaviruses could mutate to attack humans.
...
Three years later, though—in December 2017—the NIH ended the moratorium and the second phase of the NIAID project, which included the gain-of-function research, began. The NIH established a framework for determining how the research would go forward: scientists have to get approval from a panel of experts, who would decide whether the risks were justified.

The reviews were indeed conducted—but in secret, for which the NIH has drawn criticism. In early 2019, after a reporter for Science magazine discovered that the NIH had approved two influenza research projects that used gain of function methods, scientists who oppose this kind of research excoriated the NIH in an editorial in the Washington Post.

"We have serious doubts about whether these experiments should be conducted at all," wrote Tom Inglesby of Johns Hopkins University and Marc Lipsitch of Harvard. "[W]ith deliberations kept behind closed doors, none of us will have the opportunity to understand how the government arrived at these decisions or to judge the rigor and integrity of that process."
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on April 28, 2020, 11:44:24 PM
China threatens Australia with economic attacks if it doesnt drop calls for investigation of Wuhan lab.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/china-lashes-out-us-australia-coronavirus.amp (https://www.foxnews.com/world/china-lashes-out-us-australia-coronavirus.amp)
China lashes out at US, threatens Australia

China's ambassador to Australia warned on Monday that the government's call for an independent international inquiry into the origins of the pandemic could lead to a Chinese boycott of Australian products.

"Maybe the ordinary people will say, 'Why should we drink Australian wine? Eat Australian beef?'" Ambassador Chen Jingye threatened, The Australian Financial Review reported.

Australian's foreign minister Marise Payne hit back, dismissing China's attempt at "economic coercion."

That didn't sit well with China, which prompted Hu Xijin, editor-in-chief of the Global Times, to tweet: "Let me give a 'coercion' to Australia. As its attitude toward China becomes worse and worse, Chinese companies will definitely reduce economic cooperation with Australia, and the number of Chinese students & visitors going to Australia will also decrease. Time will prove it all."
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on April 29, 2020, 07:23:31 AM
Australia isn't the bad guy here.  They are just doing what needs to be done in as non threatening way possible.  China is making all the threats.

Send in the independent inspectors.  Let them talk to Wuhan lab staff.  Grant whistleblowers diplomatic refugee status.  This way we can quickly get to bottom of exactly what happened.

https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2020-04-28/australia-stokes-china-tensions-with-call-for-virus-origin-probe (https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2020-04-28/australia-stokes-china-tensions-with-call-for-virus-origin-probe)

Australia Stokes China Tensions With Call for Virus Probe

Australia’s calls for an independent probe into the origins of the coronavirus pandemic is heightening tensions with Beijing, worrying businesses in the world’s most China-dependent developed economy.

Even as Australia prepares for its first recession in almost three decades after the virus-induced lockdown shuttered pubs, cinemas and thousands of small retailers, the government is determined that the roots of the outbreak must be investigated. China is pushing back, labeling calls for the probe “politically motivated” and warning of a potential consumer boycott of Australian products.

Treasurer Josh Frydenberg on Wednesday dismissed China’s complaints and said Australia would not bow to “economic coercion.”

“Australia thinks it’s prudent and sensible for there to be an independent and transparent investigation into the origins of this global pandemic that’s killed thousands and thousands of people,” he said in a Sky News interview Wednesday. “We won’t trade off health outcomes for economic outcomes.”
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: Mr. Bill on April 30, 2020, 12:14:51 PM
US Office of the Director of National Intelligence, 4/30/20: Intelligence Community Statement on Origins of COVID-19 (https://www.dni.gov/index.php/newsroom/press-releases/item/2112-intelligence-community-statement-on-origins-of-covid-19)

Quote
The Office of the Director of National Intelligence today issued the following Intelligence Community (IC) statement:

“The entire Intelligence Community has been consistently providing critical support to U.S. policymakers and those responding to the COVID-19 virus, which originated in China. The Intelligence Community also concurs with the wide scientific consensus that the COVID-19 virus was not manmade or genetically modified.

“As we do in all crises, the Community’s experts respond by surging resources and producing critical intelligence on issues vital to U.S. national security. The IC will continue to rigorously examine emerging information and intelligence to determine whether the outbreak began through contact with infected animals or if it was the result of an accident at a laboratory in Wuhan.”
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on April 30, 2020, 05:35:18 PM
US Office of the Director of National Intelligence, 4/30/20: Intelligence Community Statement on Origins of COVID-19 (https://www.dni.gov/index.php/newsroom/press-releases/item/2112-intelligence-community-statement-on-origins-of-covid-19)

Wow, what a busy week for the "intelligence" community.  Not only did they find the missing "UFO" videos they originally claimed didnt exist, they also found the notes showing the framing of General Flynn (that they also claimed didnt exist) and still had time to poll all the scientists in the world to determine a "consensus" on this!  Amazing work!   :sarcasm:
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on May 01, 2020, 07:25:47 AM
EU rewrote its report on origin of Wuhan virus and the cover-up under threats from China.  People aren't accepting that they "water down a report on Chinese disinformation" and now there is "mounting pressure to release more details and earlier drafts of the crunch document."

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1276505/eu-coronavirus-china-cover-up-covid-19-outbreak-report-josep-borrell-donald-trump-claims/amp (https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1276505/eu-coronavirus-china-cover-up-covid-19-outbreak-report-josep-borrell-donald-trump-claims/amp)
EU admits China DID try to silence coronavirus claims - Brussels questioned over report

The bloc was plunged into fresh crisis last week after the New York Times claimed China had tried to block the release of the report, subsequently forcing EU officials to delay and then re-write this before its release. An unnamed senior official told colleagues in an email seen by the newspaper: “The Chinese are already threatening with reactions if the report comes out."
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on May 02, 2020, 08:18:12 AM
Uh oh.  Jamie Metzl, high ranking Clinton and Biden staffer, Asia Society's Executive Vice-President, and author of Hacking Darwin: Genetic Engineering and the Future of Humanity tweeted out:

"I have been saying since January that the most likely starting point of the #coronavirus crisis is an accidental leak from the Chinese virology institute in #Wuhan. Because China still covering up & blocking access, it's not possible to yet say for certain. Occam's razor applies."

And now several other prominent Democrat insiders have followed suit.  Looks like cross party recognition is happening
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on May 02, 2020, 03:44:54 PM
https://mobile.twitter.com/JohnRobertsFOX (https://mobile.twitter.com/JohnRobertsFOX)
John Roberts @johnrobertsFox
Sources say not all 17 intelligence agencies agree that the lab was the source of the virus because there is not yet a definitive “smoking gun”. But confidence is high among 70-75% of the agencies.


https://www.foxnews.com/world/new-dossier-condemns-china-for-destroying-evidence-of-covid-19-outbreak (https://www.foxnews.com/world/new-dossier-condemns-china-for-destroying-evidence-of-covid-19-outbreak)
Leaked Western intel dossier reveals how China deceived the world about coronavirus

A research dossier compiled by the so-called "Five Eyes" intelligence alliance states that China intentionally hid or destroyed evidence of the coronavirus outbreak, leading to the loss of tens of thousands of lives around the world

The 15-page document from the intelligence agencies of the U.S., Canada, the U.K., Australia and New Zealand, was obtained by Australia's Saturday Telegraph newspaper and states that China's secrecy amounted to an “assault on international transparency."

The dossier touches on themes that have been discussed in media reports about the outbreak of the virus, including an initial denial by China that the virus could be transmitted between humans, the silencing or "disappearing" of doctors who tried to speak up, the destruction of evidence in laboratories and refusal to provide live samples to international scientists working on a vaccine.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: Mr. Bill on May 04, 2020, 09:07:32 PM
FiveThirtyEight, 5/4/20: Why Scientists Think The Novel Coronavirus Developed Naturally — Not In A Chinese Lab (https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-scientists-think-the-novel-coronavirus-developed-naturally-not-in-a-chinese-lab/)

Quote
...
Why do scientists think it wasn’t genetically engineered?

...In SARS-CoV-2’s case, scientists thought they knew how to optimize SARS to infect human hosts. Coronaviruses enter host cells using protein “spikes” that cover their outer surface. At the tip of each spike is a cluster of amino acids that can bind to a certain receptor on a host cell, like a pick designed to open a particular cellular lock. In the case of SARS-CoV-2, the spike binds to human ACE2 receptors, which coat lung cells. ...

But, Garry said, the tip of the SARS-CoV-2 spike is unlike anything scientists have seen before, sharing only a single key amino acid with SARS. Modeling suggests that it shouldn’t be able to bind to human lungs well, but the new configuration is about as effective as the optimized SARS.

How SARS-CoV-2 acquired this unusual tip is still a mystery. But blaming it on genetic engineering overstates the abilities of scientists, Garry said. Guessing that these particular amino acids can bind to ACE2 so effectively is nearly impossible— there are 20 common types of amino acids, and tens of millions of ways to arrange them into a binding tip. ...

What if it was in a petri dish and got out?

...The virus’s spike has a hinge-like structure, allowing the spike to change shape as the virus enters the host cell. Like the spike tip, the hinge on SARS-CoV-2 is markedly different from anything seen in its close relatives. New research suggests that the hinge loses its unique characteristics when cultured in a lab, said Garry. The spike also appears to be able to shield itself from antibodies—another hint that it evolved in the presence of host immune systems.

Most importantly, there’s no smoking gun connecting the lab to an ancestor of the virus. There’s “no bat virus that’s close enough to be the progenitor,” said Garry. The closest known relative to SARS-CoV-2 is a cousin that diverged decades ago in bats.

And while critics suggest that the WIV might have concealed the ancestral virus, 27 scientists who have collaborated with the WIV, including former U.S. officials, rejected the idea in a letter to The Lancet. ...

Then how’d it get here at all?

There’s a simpler, if less flashy, explanation for the emergence of a new SARS. A study, published in 2018, of four rural villages in Yunnan province located near caves containing bats known to carry coronaviruses found that 2.7 percent of those surveyed had antibodies for close relatives of SARS. Thousands, if not millions, of people are exposed to wild coronaviruses every year. Most of them aren’t dangerous, but “if you roll the dice enough times,” Goldstein said, you’ll see a bad one. ...

Believe it or don't.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on May 04, 2020, 09:36:47 PM
FiveThirtyEight, 5/4/20: Why Scientists Think The Novel Coronavirus Developed Naturally — Not In A Chinese Lab (https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-scientists-think-the-novel-coronavirus-developed-naturally-not-in-a-chinese-lab/)

Believe it or don't.

I like how in two months they have gone from 'these spikes are not unusual at all' to 'these are unlike anything we have ever seen or possibly conceived'.  And for some inexplicable reason both of these contradictory stories are supposed to prove it didnt escape a lab.  Well, at least we dont have to hear more nonsense about anteaters being eaten raw in pagan rituals being the cause.

They really owe the Itallian scientists whose careers they destroyed an apology.  First they denied the operation of the spikes.  Then they said they were just run of the mill.  Now they have been proven 100% right about both their functioning and treatments.  Tens of thousands of lives could have been saved if people would have listened and immediately fast tracked the diagnostics tests and antivirals as the research suggested.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on May 05, 2020, 10:08:11 PM
A story to keep an eye on as it develops.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1200896 (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1200896)
Researcher 'on verge of making very significant' coronavirus findings shot to death
The Pennsylvania researcher "was on the verge of making very significant findings toward understanding the cellular mechanisms that underlie" COVID-19, his university said.


Liu, who earned a Ph.D. in computational science from the National University of Singapore, worked as a postdoctoral fellow at Carnegie Mellon University before becoming a research associate at the University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine.

In a statement, the University of Pittsburgh described him as an excellent mentor and prolific researcher who had co-authored more than 30 papers. His work focused on systems biology.

"Bing was on the verge of making very significant findings toward understanding the cellular mechanisms that underlie SARS-CoV-2 infection and the cellular basis of the following complications," the school said.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: Morning Sunshine on May 06, 2020, 06:35:43 AM
A story to keep an eye on as it develops.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1200896 (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1200896)
Researcher 'on verge of making very significant' coronavirus findings shot to death
The Pennsylvania researcher "was on the verge of making very significant findings toward understanding the cellular mechanisms that underlie" COVID-19, his university said.


Liu, who earned a Ph.D. in computational science from the National University of Singapore, worked as a postdoctoral fellow at Carnegie Mellon University before becoming a research associate at the University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine.

In a statement, the University of Pittsburgh described him as an excellent mentor and prolific researcher who had co-authored more than 30 papers. His work focused on systems biology.

"Bing was on the verge of making very significant findings toward understanding the cellular mechanisms that underlie SARS-CoV-2 infection and the cellular basis of the following complications," the school said.


very suspicious, to be sure.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on May 06, 2020, 07:07:38 AM
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/05/05/britain-undergoing-mindset-change-toward-beijing-says-leading-lawmaker-239632 (https://www.politico.com/news/2020/05/05/britain-undergoing-mindset-change-toward-beijing-says-leading-lawmaker-239632)
Britain undergoing ‘mindset change’ toward Beijing, says leading lawmaker
Beijing’s handling of the coronavirus outbreak is prompting the UK to question its dependency on Chinese trade, says Tobias Ellwood.


The U.K. government is undergoing a "mindset change" with regard to Beijing "not least because of the attitude, the conduct of China throughout Covid-19," said Tobias Ellwood, who chairs of the defense committee in the House of Commons, in a video call with POLITICO.

He added that China had been "less than transparent, in denial about how this started in the first place [and] not a country that we should be cozying up to to do long-term security deals with ... I do think that the Covid-19 experience, and China's clandestine conduct here, will help sharpen opinion."

The comments from the conservative former defense minister echoes sharpening criticism of Beijing from the United States, where Secretary of State Mike Pompeo argued over the weekend that the outbreak had originated in a Chinese laboratory.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: Mr. Bill on May 06, 2020, 11:58:50 AM
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1200896 (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1200896)
Researcher 'on verge of making very significant' coronavirus findings shot to death
The Pennsylvania researcher "was on the verge of making very significant findings toward understanding the cellular mechanisms that underlie" COVID-19, his university said.

Why is this suspicious?  It was a murder/suicide over a love triangle.

Quote
...Ross Township police Detective Sgt. Brian Kohlhepp told NBC News that the men knew each other. Investigators believe Gu killed Liu before returning to his car, where he died of a self-inflicted gunshot wound.

Police believe the deaths occurred on Saturday after a "lengthy dispute regarding an intimate partner," according to the Ross Police Department Wednesday.

"We have found zero evidence that this tragic event has anything to do with employment at the University of Pittsburgh, any work being conducted at the University of Pittsburgh and the current health crisis affecting the United States and the world," police said. ...
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: ChEng on May 06, 2020, 02:50:15 PM
Why is this suspicious?  It was a murder/suicide over a love triangle.
The Chinese being in love with their public image, and having murderous hatred for anything that exposes their dirty laundry??
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: Mr. Bill on May 06, 2020, 08:41:41 PM
I mean, what is the evidence that this was suspicious, rather than being a typical murder/suicide?

All due respect to Dr Bing Liu, but he wasn't exactly a lead COVID-19 researcher.  Here's his page at U of Pittsburgh:

http://www.pitt.edu/~liubing/

Quote
Bing Liu
Research Assistant Professor
Computational & Systems Biology Department
School of Medicine, University of Pittsburgh

About
I received Bachelor and PhD in Computer Science under the supervision of Profs P.S. Thiagarajan and David Hsu from National University of Singapore. Previously, I have been working with Prof Edmund M. Clarke (Turing Award 2007) as a Postdoctoral Fellow in Department of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon University, and with Prof Ivet Bahar as a Research Associate in the Department of Computational & Systems Biology, School of Medicine, University of Pittsburgh. Currently, I am Research Assistant Professor in the Department of Computational & Systems Biology, School of Medicine, University of Pittsburgh.

Research
My research area centers on computational systems biology. I develop computational modeling, simulation and analysis techniques to study the dynamics of biological systems. As an integral part of my research, I collaborate with a number of biologists and clinicians to study a variety of crucial biological processes related to human immunity and cancer. I also leverage high-performance computing, formal verification, and machine learning techniques to enable the analysis of multi-scale systems. Furthermore, I am applying the techniques I have been developing to analyze cyber-physical systems that are ubiquitous in safety-critical applications. ...

Here is the statement released by his department, which lists the many different projects he was working on besides COVID-19:

5/6/20: Department Mourns the Passing of Dr. Bing Liu (https://www.csb.pitt.edu/department-mourns-the-passing-of-dr-bing-liu/)

Quote
...Bing was a prolific researcher. During his career he co-authored in 30+ publications, including four in 2020, in addition to a book.  He played a critical role in the Bahar Lab and was the leader in systems biology research for Ivet and her lab. He single-handedly helped all of us as well as many collaborators including clinicians here and in other institutions, understand and quantitatively model many complex processes, including immune signaling events,  apoptotic and ferroptotic cell death,  autophagy, redox lipid programming, response to radiation and radiation therapy, systems (poly)pharmacological treatments. ...

Local coverage:

Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, 5/6/20: Police: Pitt researcher's slaying didn't involve his COVID-19 work (https://www.post-gazette.com/news/crime-courts/2020/05/06/bing-liu-hao-gu-ross-murder-suicide-allegheny-county-motive/stories/202005060096)

Quote
...Mr. Gu [the apparent murderer] was chief software architect at Eaton Corp., a power management company based in Ireland with a location in Moon.

Mr. Liu, 37, had worked under Ivet Bahar, the head of Pitt’s computational and system biology department. She said he was well liked and in the process of studying the infection mechanism of COVID-19. ...

If there was any indication that he was on the verge of some dramatic discovery that would blow the lid off secret Chinese whatever, maybe it would be a little suspicious.  But in this case we have a guy who does general-purpose computational systems biology, and he has been helping out many different research projects.  Look at the publications listed on his page -- he's hardly ever the first author, and when he is, the titles are like "A Model Checking-based Analysis Framework for Systems Biology Models" and "Statistical Model Checking based Analysis of Biological Networks" and "Quantitative Assessment of Cell Fate Decision between Autophagy and Apoptosis".  The word virus doesn't even appear anywhere on his page.

The only smoking gun here was found in the dead hand of Hao Gu, 200 yards from Bing Liu's house.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: ChEng on May 07, 2020, 03:47:50 AM
I mean, what is the evidence that this was suspicious, rather than being a typical murder/suicide?
Sorry, I don't have anything specific - and we may never get any evidence. It just came across as suspicious; kind of like several unexplained "suicides" of people who publicly disagreed with a certain former politician's wife (like a "suicide" where the gun was found dozens of feet away from the body.)
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on May 09, 2020, 10:14:17 AM
I mean, what is the evidence that this was suspicious, rather than being a typical murder/suicide?

You missed a key thing.  Before it even made it into US national media, China communist party propaganda machine was pushing he was killed because he had evidence the virus originated in US lab.  Of course, we know it is their standard ploy to blame US for what they themselves have done.  That is why it is worth keeping an eye on it.

https://news.yahoo.com/coronavirus-professor-bing-lius-murder-025440275.html (https://news.yahoo.com/coronavirus-professor-bing-lius-murder-025440275.html)
Bing Liu: Chinese-born professor dies in US murder-suicide

"Oh my god," a user on the Chinese social media platform Weibo wrote. "This seems like coming straight out of Mission Impossible. Perhaps he found out that the virus originated from an American lab."

Many similar comments suggested Liu was killed because he was supposedly about to unravel the mystery of coronavirus' origin.

Chinese officials and state media had previously promoted a baseless claim that the virus originated in the US and was brought to Wuhan by American soldiers.

Some Weibo users said the case "seems too coincidental".

"A very unusual case. There are likely secrets hidden in the dark," one remark read.

Many Weibo comments suggested Liu's Chinese background may have put him at risk in the US, though no evidence has emerged that Liu was targeted because of his ethnicity.

Global Times, a website affiliated with the Chinese state media, published an article various speculation surrounding Liu's death.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on May 09, 2020, 10:17:08 AM
https://www.wdsu.com/amp/article/tangipahoa-sheriff-sues-china-claims-wuhan-lab-released-coronavirus/32419000 (https://www.wdsu.com/amp/article/tangipahoa-sheriff-sues-china-claims-wuhan-lab-released-coronavirus/32419000)
Tangipahoa Sheriff sues China, claims Wuhan lab released coronavirus

Tangipahoa Parish Sheriff Daniel Edwards has sued China in a federal lawsuit, claiming a research lab in the city of Wuhan is directly responsible for the COVID-19 pandemic.

Edwards, who's the brother of Louisiana Gov. John Bel Edwards, claims in the suit that the safety failures involving bat research at the lab led to the release of COVID-19 into the general population.

The suit goes on to claim that the government of China withheld vital information, and also knowingly gave out misleading information on the spread of the disease.

Edwards said he filed the lawsuit because his office is seeing a dramatic decrease in sales tax revenue due to the coronavirus.
...
Gov. John Bel Edwards was asked about his brother's lawsuit during his daily press briefing Friday.

He said he didn't know anything about it, but did confirm Attorney General Jeff Landry was considering a similar lawsuit on behalf of the state.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: Mr. Bill on May 09, 2020, 12:05:14 PM
You missed a key thing.  Before it even made it into US national media, China communist party propaganda machine was pushing he was killed because he had evidence the virus originated in US lab. ...

 :facepalm:

You're right, I hadn't heard that bit of craziness.

He wasn't even studying the origin of the virus!
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: Carver on May 09, 2020, 04:55:14 PM
https://fromrome.info/2020/05/06/dr-judy-mikovits-the-plandemic/amp/?fbclid=IwAR1Gyo3o2mjCYDf6EAKqCsgZX_EKoQ47Q5MQNDn65xK7d12e16YS37G_yZI (https://fromrome.info/2020/05/06/dr-judy-mikovits-the-plandemic/amp/?fbclid=IwAR1Gyo3o2mjCYDf6EAKqCsgZX_EKoQ47Q5MQNDn65xK7d12e16YS37G_yZI)
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: FreeLancer on May 09, 2020, 05:43:00 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judy_Mikovits (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judy_Mikovits)

Quote
Judy Anne Mikovits (c. 1958) is a discredited American ex-research scientist[10][11][12][2][3] who is known for her anti-vaccination activism,[13][12] promotion of conspiracy theories, and scientific misconduct.[6][7][8][9] She has made false claims about vaccines, coronavirus, and chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS).[10][11][14]

As research director of CFS research organization Whittemore Peterson Institute (WPI) from 2006 to 2011, Mikovits led an effort that reported in 2009 that a retrovirus known as xenotropic murine leukemia virus-related virus (XMRV) was associated with CFS and may have had a causal role. However, the paper came under fire,[6] leading to an eventual retraction on December 22, 2011, by the journal Science.[8][15] In November 2011, she was arrested and held on charges that she stole from WPI, but she was released after 5 days and the charges were later dropped.[16]

In 2020, Mikovits drew attention online for promoting conspiracy theories about the COVID-19 pandemic via the conspiracist internet video Plandemic,[10] which made claims that are either false or not based on scientific evidence.[17][18][19]

Quote
By late 2005, Mikovits was working as a bartender at the Pierpont Bay Yacht Club in Ventura, CA.
 

Quote
Mikovits gained attention on social media for promoting her ideas about the COVID-19 pandemic. She does not believe that a vaccine is needed to prevent COVID-19, and claims that the coronavirus was "caused by a bad strain of flu vaccine that was circulating between 2013 and 2015". She also claimed masks will “activate” the virus and reinfect a mask-wearer over and over.[10]

One such circulating video gained notoriety in May 2020. Titled Plandemic Part 1, this film is a half-hour long documentary-styled interview of Mikovits's views on a variety of subjects.[11][54] YouTube removed this video from its website a number of times, citing its Community Guidelines.[55][56] It was later removed by Vimeo and Facebook for similar reasons.[5]


About FromRome.Info (https://fromrome.info/about/)

Quote
FROM ROME is an electronic journal for Catholics who want to know what is really going on in the Church. We are the quintessential un-controlled journalistic Apostolate, with no ties to anyone in the Sacred Hierarchy to tell us what to print and what not to print. We believe every Catholic has the right to know the truth, and that the truth about what is going on and who our pastors really are is the the right of every Catholic. We uphold, profess and sustain the eternal Faith of Jesus Christ which has been handed down by the Apostles, defended by the Fathers, preached by the Saints and taught by the perennial Magisterium of the Church. That includes upholding the Laws of the Church. Hence, we profess allegiance and obedience to the only true Vicar of Jesus Christ, on Earth, Pope Benedict XVI.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on May 09, 2020, 07:41:35 PM
https://www.thecentersquare.com/texas/university-of-texas-investigated-for-links-to-wuhan-lab/article_66241dda-8e62-11ea-aa55-7f9876bc210e.amp.html (https://www.thecentersquare.com/texas/university-of-texas-investigated-for-links-to-wuhan-lab/article_66241dda-8e62-11ea-aa55-7f9876bc210e.amp.html)
University of Texas investigated for links to Wuhan lab

The University of Texas system is being investigated by the U.S. Department of Education for its involvement with the infectious diseases laboratory in Wuhan, China, and its potential links to Beijing and roughly 24 Chinese state-owned companies, including telecom giant Huawei, according to a report by The Wall Street Journal.

The investigation comes after the UT system received $172.5 million in federal stimulus money from the CARES Act.

The Education Department's Office of General Counsel sent a letter to Chancellor James Milliken last week requesting that it provide documentation of its dealings with the Chinese laboratory U.S. officials now believe was where the coronavirus was experimented on and leaked from, despite prior conflicting reports.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: surfivor on May 10, 2020, 12:06:44 AM

Spirko recently did another covid19 podcast. He says it’s true that Faucci owns all kinds of patents on drugs, treatments and supposedly vaccines. That would be a serious conflict of interest that should not be allowed

He also said test kits where sent to Tanzania. Over there they don’t trust these things so they tested them in papaya fruit and many the fruit tested positive which seemed to indicate someone or all of the test kits where fault
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on May 10, 2020, 09:46:21 AM
Lots of chatter in science community that leak at lab has been verified. May be from cell phone records.  The timing aligns with the bat coronavirus researchers canceling conference presentations and being rushed back to Wuhan under military escort.  It also aligns precisely with reports of first cases and the initial asymptomatic spread as documented by Chinese scientists and doctors before they were silenced.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/05/09/us-uk-intelligence-agencies-examining-report-mobile-phone-data/ (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/05/09/us-uk-intelligence-agencies-examining-report-mobile-phone-data/)
US and UK intelligence agencies 'examining report on mobile phone data at Wuhan laboratory'

US and British intelligence agencies are reportedly examining mobile phone data suggesting there could have been an emergency shutdown in October at the Wuhan Institute of Virology.

According to a report, obtained by NBC News, there was no mobile phone activity in a high-security part of the Chinese laboratory complex from Oct 7 to Oct 24. Previously, there had been consistent use of mobile phones.

The report, carried out by private experts, suggested there may have been a "hazardous event," specifically at the institute's National Biosafety Laboratory, between Oct 6 and Oct 11.



Overseas the television talk shows are having open discussion now that public confirmation seems to be nearing, see below example. This normally happens just before government full disclosure.

https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/national/covid19-leaking-from-wuhan-laboratory-is-the-only-plausible-explanation/video/cc2934e84fd236ad061bacf99184e511 (https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/national/covid19-leaking-from-wuhan-laboratory-is-the-only-plausible-explanation/video/cc2934e84fd236ad061bacf99184e511)
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on May 10, 2020, 12:08:53 PM
US newspaper editorial boards starting to speak out against coverup.

https://nypost.com/2020/05/08/world-health-organization-just-cant-stop-covering-for-china/amp/ (https://nypost.com/2020/05/08/world-health-organization-just-cant-stop-covering-for-china/amp/)
The World Health Organization just can’t stop covering for China

Even now, the World Health Organization can’t resist covering for China. The latest: Dr. Mike Ryan, its top emergency expert, called claims that the coronavirus escaped from that Wuhan lab purely “speculative.”
...
Yet WHO itself can only speculate: Its experts haven’t been in the country since February, and China won’t let them enter to investigate COVID-19’s origins. Which is evidence of a sort, actually.
...
Meanwhile, the multinational Five Eyes intelligence dossier that leaked last week outlines major Beijing duplicity from the start, from destroying evidence to “disappearing” whistleblowers.

Whatever the origins of the virus, WHO’s rush to make that claim just shows that it still puts defending China’s Communist regime over protecting global health.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: Carver on May 10, 2020, 12:32:05 PM
Quote
How Covid-19 misinformation is still going viral
https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/08/tech/covid-viral-misinformation/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/08/tech/covid-viral-misinformation/index.html)
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on May 10, 2020, 03:22:46 PM
https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/08/tech/covid-viral-misinformation/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/08/tech/covid-viral-misinformation/index.html)

LOL. I wonder if they were the ones who got youtube and facebook to take down the videos showing the Whitmer and Biden linked Cherry Health staged a fake testing line for CBS news to get more federal money.  All the so called fact checkers said it was an unfounded conspiracy theory that they hadnt staged it.  Thousands had their accounts suspended challenging the story.  Yet now CBS and Cherry Health were forced by release of Project Veritas video that it was true.

https://www.woodtv.com/video/cherry-health-admits-staffers-did-join-testing-line-in-tv-report/5486808/ (https://www.woodtv.com/video/cherry-health-admits-staffers-did-join-testing-line-in-tv-report/5486808/)
Cherry Health admits staffers did join testing line in TV report

Or how about those shut down for challenging fake news story that Pence delivered empty boxes of PPE?

[url]https://www.axios.com/mike-pence-empty-ppe-boxes-viral-tweet-f59c8bc8-8abd-4a1f-a5b9-8edcc38942ba.html[/url
Reality check: Pence didn't deliver empty PPE boxes for photo op

If they were serious about misinformation, large portions of CBS and CNN stories would be taken down and they would be suspended from platforms.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: surfivor on May 10, 2020, 07:07:22 PM
 I really disliked the 60 minute piece defending New York-based EcoHealth Alliance and work coordinated with WuHan labs. It is wrong on so many levels and doesn't admit to any of the many known risks and problems. It doesn't mention this type of research was halted in the US. It claims nothing happened in China but yet trying to find out what happened in China is impossible because it's a communist country or we have to rely on a bunch of deep state spooks to tell us the answer

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronavirus-vaccine-politics-scientific-community-60-minutes-2020-05-10/

Trump administration cuts funding for coronavirus researcher, jeopardizing possible COVID-19 cure

..

An American scientist who collaborates with the Wuhan Institute of Virology had his grant terminated in the wake of unsubstantiated claims that COVID-19 is either manmade or leaked out of a Chinese government lab.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on May 11, 2020, 06:34:36 AM
Bill Clinton's white house spokesperson has called for closure of Wuhan lab.  The chorus is growing and cuts across all political dimensions.

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/ex-white-house-drug-spokesman-bob-weiner-china-must-prove-virus-didnt-start-in-wuhan-lab-or-shut-it-down-301053608.html (https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/ex-white-house-drug-spokesman-bob-weiner-china-must-prove-virus-didnt-start-in-wuhan-lab-or-shut-it-down-301053608.html)
Ex-White House Drug Spokesman Bob Weiner: China Must Prove Virus Didn't Start In Wuhan Lab Or Shut It Down
2000 Viruses Being Studied at Wuhan Lab. Which Could Be Next, Weiner Asks on John Fredericks Radio Show


WASHINGTON, May 6, 2020 /PRNewswire/ -- In a radio interview Tuesday on the John Fredericks Show, former White House Drug Spokesman Robert Weiner asserted, "China must prove the Covid-19 virus didn't start in its Wuhan lab or shut it down."

Weiner, who issued a statement with senior policy analyst Ben Lasky, asked Fredericks, "With 2000 viruses being studied at the Wuhan lab, which could be the next to escape or be released?"
...
Weiner asserted. "If they need to temporarily shut down the Wuhan lab and announce it to give the world peace of mind, so be it. Are three million cases and 200,000 deaths so far, not far worse than even Russia's Chernobyl, which AEA said caused 4000 deaths and the Russians shut down?"

"It's not about politics. Democrats, Republicans, liberals, conservatives must admit that Trump's signature issue from before his presidential campaign has been forcing China into the open and stopping their campaigns against Western trade, intellectual property—and safety.  Democrats since Richard Gephardt's presidential campaign of 2004 have crusaded against the Chinese economic and safety assaults on the U.S.

Weiner added, "Trump is not wrong that the World Health Organization (WHO) stuck with Chinese propaganda that Coronavirus is not dangerous." On January 14, the WHO tweeted, "Preliminary investigations conducted by the Chinese authorities have found no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission."  Weiner pointed out that "Trump, Dr. Anthony Fauci of NIH and many others believed the WHO at the outset."

Weiner concluded, "The U.S. and all nations must join to persuade China to mandate facts and protect the world's health.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: Carver on May 11, 2020, 06:47:24 AM
I don't buy the concept that the accused has to proof their innocence.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on May 11, 2020, 06:55:02 AM
I don't buy the concept that the accused has to proof their innocence.

Do you buy into the concept of warrants to gather information?  Or countries complying with treaty obligations?  Or contract rights of co-owners?

Why should China be able to shirk all its obligations under international law? 
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on May 11, 2020, 07:32:30 AM
Prior to the current regime, China has always cooperated with international investigations as per treaties.  And they routinely admitted to the lab leaks.  So the big question now is why they have changed?

https://www.biospace.com/article/around-the-web/china-reports-sars-death-caused-by-lab-leak/ (https://www.biospace.com/article/around-the-web/china-reports-sars-death-caused-by-lab-leak/)
China Reports SARS Death Caused By Lab Leak

Published: Apr 26, 2004
Chinese health officials have confirmed four suspected cases of severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS), including one death, which appear to have been caused by a safety breach at a laboratory studying the SARS virus.
...
The Chinese Ministry of Health says they have clinical confirmation of SARS coronavirus infection in two of the four suspected SARS cases. They are a 20-year-old nurse in Bejing who is currently in intensive care and a 26-year-old female laboratory researcher from Anhui Province. If confirmed by an independent international reference lab, this would be the third outbreak of SARS to be traced back to inadequate laboratory safety procedures.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on May 11, 2020, 03:07:05 PM
Very tabloidy, but accurate. 

https://www.thesun.ie/news/5375116/wuhan-lab-blamed-for-coronavirus-lied-about-safety-precautions-it-took-during-controversial-bat-tests/amp/ (https://www.thesun.ie/news/5375116/wuhan-lab-blamed-for-coronavirus-lied-about-safety-precautions-it-took-during-controversial-bat-tests/amp/)
LAB SCANDAL Wuhan lab blamed for coronavirus LIED about safety precautions it took during controversial bat tests

THE laboratory at the heart of the world’s coronavirus pandemic lied about taking safety precautions when collecting bat samples, The Sun can exclusively reveal.

Shocking leaked photos - which reveal a scandalous lack of safety - were deleted from the website of under-fire China science hub the Wuhan Institute of Virology.
...
US and British intelligence officials suspect bungling scientists at the Wuhan Institute of Virology accidentally spread the killer disease during risky coronavirus tests on bats.

It was claimed that Covid-19 was "developed in the Wuhan lab as China hoped to prove it's greater than the US at battling deadly diseases".
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on May 12, 2020, 10:53:24 PM
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/chinas-war-on-whistleblowers (https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/chinas-war-on-whistleblowers)
China's war on whistleblowers

Those images of Li now serve as a symbol of just how much Communist China values truth and transparency — and the lives of its own citizens.

It doesn’t.

There’s a Chinese idiom that translates to: “Kill the chicken to scare the monkey.” It refers to making an example out of someone in order to threaten others. This is what happened to Dr. Li, Curtis S. Chin, a former U.S. ambassador to the Asian Development Bank who also worked with the Hong Kong government during the SARS epidemic, told the Washington Examiner.
...
“When I saw them circulating online, I realized that it was out of my control and I would probably be punished,” he said. He was brought down to the local Public Security Bureau in the middle of the night, reprimanded for “spreading rumors,” and forced to sign a statement admitting he “seriously disrupted social order,” thus breaching the law.

Seven other doctors were also punished for speaking the truth about the virus.
...
By merely telling the truth, Li threatened a government used to being in control. And so, Beijing has had to find a way to strengthen its grip once more.
...
“China’s problem was not a wayward Wuhan police station,” Chin said. “At the heart of China’s challenge is an authoritarian Chinese communist government system that led to cover-ups and deception.” What appears to be increasingly clear, Chin added, is that “China’s communist leaders might well fear their own people more than they do the spread of the coronavirus.”
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on May 14, 2020, 01:53:19 PM
India's Union Minister cites virus lab origin in discussing their Micro, Small, and Medium business stimulus plan.  Also cites need for India to become more self-sufficient.

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/virus-is-from-a-lab-not-natural-says-nitin-gadkari-to-ndtv-2228299?pfrom=home-bigstory (https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/virus-is-from-a-lab-not-natural-says-nitin-gadkari-to-ndtv-2228299?pfrom=home-bigstory)
Virus Is From A Lab, Not Natural, Says Nitin Gadkari To NDTV

New Delhi: Union Minister Nitin Gadkari, reacting to Finance Minister Nirmala Sitharaman's announcements for small businesses hit by the coronavirus crisis and weeks of lockdown, said creating positivity in the circumstances was a challenge.
"We have to understand the art of living with corona. This is not a natural virus. It is an artificial virus and now many countries in the whole world - they are researching on it for a vaccine. The vaccine is not available, it is expected that vaccine will be available as soon as possible, then there will be no problem," Nitin Gadkari said in an interview to NDTV.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: Mr. Bill on May 14, 2020, 09:00:12 PM
Virus Is From A Lab, Not Natural, Says Nitin Gadkari To NDTV

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitin_Gadkari

Currently:
  Minister of Road Transport and Highways
  Minister of Micro, Small and Medium Enterprises

Previously:
  President of Bharatiya Janata Party
  numerous other political positions

Business ventures:
  Poly Sack Industrial Society Ltd
  Nikhil Furniture and Appliances Pvt. Ltd
  Antyodaya Trust
  Empress Employees Co-operative Paper Mills Ltd
  Purti Power and Sugar Ltd / Purti Sakhar Karkhana Ltd
  Ketaki Overseas Trading Company

Education:
  Bachelor of Commerce (undergraduate business degree)
  Bachelor of Laws (undergraduate law degree)

With a background like this, Gadkari is definitely the person I'd trust regarding coronavirus origins, rather than all those virologists and geneticists and epidemiologists who say exactly the opposite.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on May 14, 2020, 09:27:35 PM
With a background like this, Gadkari is definitely the person I'd trust regarding coronavirus origins, rather than all those virologists and geneticists and epidemiologists who say exactly the opposite.

Great.  Then you will trust the Indian scientists from the school of biological sciences at IIT Delhi and Acharya Narendra Dev College of University of Delhi, right?  Or a Nobel Prize winning virologist? Or the creator of the international biotechnology treaty?
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on May 14, 2020, 10:11:06 PM
The "experts" making up the "consensus".  LOL.  And look at the other clowns.  They even included the failed CDC bureaucrat responsible for the contaminated lab and faulty test kits.   

https://nypost.com/2020/05/13/greta-thunberg-added-to-cnn-expert-covid-19-panel-twitter-erupts/ (https://nypost.com/2020/05/13/greta-thunberg-added-to-cnn-expert-covid-19-panel-twitter-erupts/)
Greta Thunberg added to CNN’s expert coronavirus panel, Twitter erupts


Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: Mr. Bill on May 15, 2020, 08:58:27 AM
You've made my point for me.  Nitin Gadkari's opinion on the origin of the virus is just as newsworthy as Greta Thunberg's opinion -- i.e., not.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on May 15, 2020, 03:58:45 PM
You've made my point for me.  Nitin Gadkari's opinion on the origin of the virus is just as newsworthy as Greta Thunberg's opinion -- i.e., not.

Newsworthy?  Perhaps, but that just shows the deplorable state of the news industry.

Personally I think it is highly relevant that the sixth highest ranking minister in India's government says unequivically that, as a matter of policy, they view the source as a lab release and they are taking action accordingly.   Greta, by contrast, is a mentally challenged teenager with little knowledge, experience or access to information. Why do you view her opinions as so important?

But more importantly you implied that you would trust "virologists and geneticists and epidemiologists". But you are dismissing the high profile ones who have come forward.  I am just trying to understand why you are dismissing them and the vast numbers of other scientists who have come to the lab leak conclusion, especially given Chinese labs' record of leaking dangerous viruses and the mounds of evidence supporting that conclusion and no evidence supporting alternatives.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: surfivor on May 15, 2020, 04:09:48 PM
Newsworthy?  Perhaps, but that just shows the deplorable state of the news industry.

Personally I think it is highly relevant that the sixth highest ranking minister in India's government says unequivically that, as a matter of policy, they view the source as a lab release and they are taking action accordingly.   Greta, by contrast, is a mentally challenged teenager with little knowledge, experience or access to information. Why do you view her opinions as so important?

But more importantly you implied that you would trust "virologists and geneticists and epidemiologists". But you are dismissing the high profile ones who have come forward.  I am just trying to understand why you are dismissing them and the vast numbers of other scientists who have come to the lab leak conclusion, especially given Chinese labs' record of leaking dangerous viruses and the mounds of evidence supporting that conclusion and no evidence supporting alternatives.

 I would like to see a list of names of scientists and doctors or other health professionals who have called the official narrative into question if someone has time to compile such a list. I know that Luc Antoine Montagnier  is one person on the list
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: Mr. Bill on May 15, 2020, 09:52:36 PM
Newsworthy?  Perhaps, but that just shows the deplorable state of the news industry.

Personally I think it is highly relevant that the sixth highest ranking minister in India's government says unequivically that, as a matter of policy, they view the source as a lab release and they are taking action accordingly.   Greta, by contrast, is a mentally challenged teenager with little knowledge, experience or access to information. Why do you view her opinions as so important?

You've misunderstood me.  I think Greta Thunberg's opinions on coronavirus are profoundly unimportant.  Ditto for India's "sixth highest ranking minister", and for the same reason: both are without any unusual level of expertise in the area.  They're just people who have become famous for entirely other reasons.

Asking Nitin Gadkari how the virus originated is like asking Fauci how to fund freeway construction.

But more importantly you implied that you would trust "virologists and geneticists and epidemiologists". But you are dismissing the high profile ones who have come forward.  I am just trying to understand why you are dismissing them and the vast numbers of other scientists who have come to the lab leak conclusion, especially given Chinese labs' record of leaking dangerous viruses and the mounds of evidence supporting that conclusion and no evidence supporting alternatives.

My opinions have changed as new evidence has come in, but this is how I've felt for the past few weeks:

The virus originated in bats.

It passed to humans probably by way of some other animal intermediary.  There are two plausible routes: natural, or via lab experiments designed to replicate the natural route.

From there, it escaped into the human population in or near Wuhan.  Again, there are two plausible routes: natural, or via an escape from the lab.

I don't believe we currently have evidence to distinguish between these possibilites.

I believe the "created by genetic engineering" theory has been adequately disproven at this point.  All the furor over "HIV insertions" and the like was just bad science, done in a hurry by pressured researchers who ought to have gotten some outside review before going public.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on May 16, 2020, 10:18:34 AM
I believe the "created by genetic engineering" theory has been adequately disproven at this point.  All the furor over "HIV insertions" and the like was just bad science, done in a hurry by pressured researchers who ought to have gotten some outside review before going public.

Interesting.  So you don't believe gain of function research was being conducted at the Wuhan Lab?  Or that this research was focused on insertions to bat coronaviruses?  The end result of which would be a coronavirus similar to that in bats naturally but with insertions that make it extremely contagious to himans but with a low mortality rate.  What evidence is there that this didn't occur,?  Because if it didn't, we should get our taxpayer dollars back from the lab.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on May 16, 2020, 10:37:11 AM
Uh oh.  Left media outlets are now switching gears.  After finding no scientists who will go on record saying the lab leak hypothesis isnt legit possibility, they are now blaming lab leaks on Trump.  :rofl:

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2020/05/the-non-paranoid-persons-guide-to-viruses-escaping-from-labs/ (https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2020/05/the-non-paranoid-persons-guide-to-viruses-escaping-from-labs/)
The Non-Paranoid Person’s Guide to Viruses Escaping From Labs

If anything, a lab connection would increase American culpability because the work being done at the lab was part of an international project launched in the United States—until now: Shortly after Trump embraced the lab-escape theory, in late April, the administration cut funding to EcoHealth Alliance, which helped fund the WIV lab.
...
Despite many experts’ skepticism, no one I talked to said they could confidently rule out the possibility that it accidentally escaped from a lab that was studying it.
...
Shi’s lab shouldn’t be completely cleared of possible blame until an independent body can review the lab’s records, which the Chinese government shows no signs of releasing. There’s also the possibility that the source of contamination could have been a CDC-run BSL-2 lab in Wuhan, which has reportedly worked with bat coronaviruses and is remarkably close to the city’s wet market.
...
Most of us mistakenly believe that the risk of a biolab-based pandemic is infinitesimal. But clearly Shi didn’t rule out an accidental escape from her lab. And, it turns out, she’s not alone. As much as biosecurity experts worry about nature as the source of the next pandemic, they also have grave concerns about labs.
...
Media outlets worldwide ran with the wet-market theory. Yet even in January, it was clear that the chances the coronavirus first spilled over in the market were vanishingly small.
...
Which left no firm explanation for how a virus that had originated in bats in remote caves in southern China had suddenly appeared in downtown Wuhan. Even the most common theories—that it had jumped from the bat to a person or another animal that served as an intermediate host as it traveled to Wuhan—would require a remarkable confluence of events.
...
So how do we make our labs safer? In 2014, the Obama White House took a first step, announcing a pause on gain-of-function research until the merits could be fully debated.

But in 2017, under Trump, the NIH lifted the pause, essentially agreeing with Ron Fouchier, and the work—including that which it helped fund in Wuhan—eventually went on. “GOF research is important in helping us identify, understand, and develop strategies and effective countermeasures against rapidly evolving pathogens that pose a threat to public health,” announced Francis Collins, the NIH director. Some scientists strenuously objected, such as Johns Hopkins’ Steven Salzberg, who wrote, “I can’t allow this to go unchallenged. This research is so potentially harmful, and offers such little benefit to society, that I fear that NIH is endangering the trust that Congress places in it.”
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on May 16, 2020, 10:38:54 AM
.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: Mr. Bill on May 16, 2020, 06:51:04 PM
Interesting.  So you don't believe gain of function research was being conducted at the Wuhan Lab?...

You posted a good Newsweek article about this:
The Controversial Experiments and Wuhan Lab Suspected of Starting the Coronavirus Pandemic (https://www.newsweek.com/controversial-wuhan-lab-experiments-that-may-have-started-coronavirus-pandemic-1500503)

But the article claimed that the gain of function research was being done using animal passage experiments.  Animal passage is not genetic engineering, it's a laboratory version of natural viral evolution.  That's what I meant when I said "There are two plausible routes: natural, or via lab experiments designed to replicate the natural route."
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on May 16, 2020, 11:32:04 PM
You posted a good Newsweek article about this:
The Controversial Experiments and Wuhan Lab Suspected of Starting the Coronavirus Pandemic (https://www.newsweek.com/controversial-wuhan-lab-experiments-that-may-have-started-coronavirus-pandemic-1500503)

But the article claimed that the gain of function research was being done using animal passage experiments.  Animal passage is not genetic engineering, it's a laboratory version of natural viral evolution.  That's what I meant when I said "There are two plausible routes: natural, or via lab experiments designed to replicate the natural route."

They were doing both.

The Institute began a program of gain-of-function research into bat coronaviruses in 2015. That involved taking selected strains and seeking to increase the ability of those viruses to transmit from one person to another. The gain-of-function research went hand-in-hand with the surveillance project. As scientists identified new classes of bat viruses that have the ability to infect human cells, that raised the question of what changes would have to arise in nature to make that virus transmissible in humans, which would pose a pandemic threat.

In 2015, the Wuhan lab performed a gain of function experiment using cut-and-paste genetic engineering, in which scientists take a natural virus and directly make substitutions in its RNA coding to make it more transmissible. They took a piece of the original SARS virus and inserted a snippet from a SARS-like bat coronavirus, resulting in a virus that is capable of infecting human cells.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: surfivor on May 17, 2020, 01:23:08 AM

We are just supposed to believe that they are not doing sketchy research or just trust such scientists when most analys of these types of things and the deep state is usually the total opposite. I find it all very annoying
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on May 17, 2020, 02:37:49 PM
https://www.newsweek.com/scientists-shouldnt-rule-out-lab-source-coronavirus-new-study-says-1504656 (https://www.newsweek.com/scientists-shouldnt-rule-out-lab-source-coronavirus-new-study-says-1504656)
Scientists Shouldn't Rule Out Lab As Source of Coronavirus, New Study Says

A new scientific analysis of the novel coronavirus (SARS-CoV-2) has argued that scientists should not rule out the possibility that the virus originated in a laboratory setting, no matter how likely or unlikely that could be

While U.S. officials and intelligence agencies have held out the possibility of a leak from the Wuhan Institute of Virology, China has dismissed the idea as a conspiracy theory
...
China's position that the Coronavirus jumped species in nature, probably at a wet market in the city of Wuhan. That view has been in part based on the evidence that the COVID-19 virus was not genetically manipulated.

Scientists who looked at the study at Newsweek's request said that the analysis is unconventional and uses techniques that are unproven. They cautioned against drawing conclusions until more research can corroborate the analysis.

...
The new study, which has not been peer-reviewed and was published on the site bioRxiv hosted by Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory, notes that the novel virus is "well adapted for humans."  It was authored by scientists from the Department of Zoology & Biodiversity Research Center at the University of British Columbia, the Fusion Genomics Corporation and the Stanley Center for Psychiatric Research at the Broad Institute of MIT and Harvard.
...

"Our observations suggest that by the time SARS-CoV-2 was first detected in late 2019, it was already pre-adapted to human transmission to an extent similar to late epidemic SARS-CoV. However, no precursors or branches of evolution stemming from a less human-adapted SARS-CoV-2-like virus have been detected," the authors of the study explained in the abstract.

"The sudden appearance of a highly infectious SARS-CoV-2 presents a major cause for concern that should motivate stronger international efforts to identify the source and prevent near future re-emergence," they warned.
...
In conclusion, the study cautions that various possibilities for how the outbreak began in humans "means that we need to take precautions against each scenario to prevent re-emergence."

Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: Mr. Bill on May 17, 2020, 07:57:24 PM
In 2015, the Wuhan lab performed a gain of function experiment using cut-and-paste genetic engineering, in which scientists take a natural virus and directly make substitutions in its RNA coding to make it more transmissible. They took a piece of the original SARS virus and inserted a snippet from a SARS-like bat coronavirus, resulting in a virus that is capable of infecting human cells.

Yes, but the very next sentence says:

Quote
A natural virus altered with these methods would be easily flagged in a genetic analysis, like a contemporary addition to an old Victorian house.

And this flagging is exactly what has not been found in the COVID-19 virus, AFAIK, except in some early flawed reports such as the withdrawn "HIV insertions" paper.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on May 17, 2020, 08:15:11 PM
Yes, but the very next sentence says:

And this flagging is exactly what has not been found in the COVID-19 virus, AFAIK, except in some early flawed reports such as the withdrawn "HIV insertions" paper.

The insertions study was withdrawn ftom that publication under Chinese threats.  As noted above, the findings were confirmed by multiple independent groups. Also, did you miss the point on that single Chinese funded "debunking" study?

Scientists who looked at the study at Newsweek's request said that the analysis is unconventional and uses techniques that are unproven. They cautioned against drawing conclusions until more research can corroborate the analysis.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: Mr. Bill on May 18, 2020, 08:52:06 AM
The insertions study was withdrawn ftom that publication under Chinese threats.

There were a lot more reasons than that.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on May 18, 2020, 10:51:36 AM
There were a lot more reasons than that.

I have not seen a single study refuting these insertions exist.  I've seen the one study with hand waving argument that they naturally evolved, but as per above this is more controversial than the original.   And some have argued that they werent bioenginered using strawman argument that the result had too low of a fatality rate and too high and infection rate to be a bioweapon.  But that is just silly thinking as gain of function research they were doing was precisely to create a high infection, low fatality virus.  And there also is a class of economic bioweapons with precisely that format (ie dont want to kill enemy, just cripple them).

If you know of research proving these insertions are not there, please post.  Because pretty much every team in the world have verified this, including those in China: http://chinaxiv.org/abs/202002.00004 (http://chinaxiv.org/abs/202002.00004).
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: Mr. Bill on May 18, 2020, 12:58:04 PM
If you know of research proving these insertions are not there, please post.  Because pretty much every team in the world have verified this, including those in China: http://chinaxiv.org/abs/202002.00004 (http://chinaxiv.org/abs/202002.00004).

I don't understand how that link relates to whether there are genetically-engineered insertions.  It discusses the discovery of a specific mutation.  I have only read a translation of the abstract, not the entire paper, but it doesn't look relevant.

Quote
Wuhan 2019 coronavirus S protein may have Furin protease cleavage site

Abstract: In December 2019, Wuhan, China reported pneumonia caused by 2019 novel coronavirus (2019 novel Coronavirus, 2019-nCoV). Based on the genomic information, our previous research results showed that although 2019-nCoV and SARS coronavirus belong to Beta coronavirus subgroup B (BB coronavirus), the two viruses are very different. This result is consistent with the clinical symptoms of the two. The previous research also found that there are a large number of variable translations of BB coronavirus, and revealed the characteristics of rapid mutation and high diversity of BB coronavirus from the molecular level. This study is the first in the world to report an important mutation in the BB coronavirus S protein. This mutation gives 2019-nCoV a site for Furin protease cleavage, which is all other BB coronaviruses except murine hepatitis coronavirus ( Including SARS and SARS-like coronavirus). This mutation may enhance the efficiency of 2019-nCoV to infect cells, which in turn makes it more spreadable than SARS coronavirus. Due to this mutation, the packaging mechanism of the 2019 coronavirus will also be different from most other Beta coronaviruses such as SARS, and may be the same as that of the murine hepatitis coronavirus, HIV, Ebola virus and some avian influenza viruses. As an unexpected discovery, some avian influenza viruses can also obtain Furin protease cleavage sites by mutation. Subsequent research on this important mutation will lay a foundation for revealing the reasons for the strong spread of 2019-nCoV and the development of drugs, antibodies and vaccines.

There is no controversy over the nucleotide sequence in the virus.  Everyone has access to that data.  The issue is interpreting that data, to see if there's "a contemporary addition to an old Victorian house" (to use Newsweek's simile) or whether it's something you'd expect from natural evolution of the virus.  China has been ineffective in supressing this discussion, because both sides are all over the Internet, but as far as I can discover as an amateur, the majority of knowledgable people believe there are no human-designed "insertions", based on statistical analysis and an understanding of how viruses typically mutate.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on May 18, 2020, 02:33:02 PM
I don't understand how that link relates to whether there are genetically-engineered insertions.  It discusses the discovery of a specific mutation.  I have only read a translation of the abstract, not the entire paper, but it doesn't look relevant.

Those were the Chinese scientists who spoke out that virus was likely leaked from lab and confirmed HIV-like insertions but were then silenced.  This was followed by many others around world (India again. Taiwan, US, Canada, US, among others)  No-one to my knowledge has claimed these insertions do not exist, especially given they were basis of trying HIV anti-virals.

https://www.ccn.com/hiv-ebola-like-mutations-suggest-coronavirus-leaked-from-a-lab/ (https://www.ccn.com/hiv-ebola-like-mutations-suggest-coronavirus-leaked-from-a-lab/)
HIV & Ebola-Like Mutations Suggest Coronavirus Leaked From a Lab

According to researchers from Nanki University in Tianjin China, Covid-19 contains a strange HIV-like mutation that may make it more contagious and give it properties not found in other coronaviruses.

The Chinese study builds upon earlier research in India that concluded that the disease was unlikely to have originated in nature. This comes amid speculation that Covid-19 originated in a Chinese research lab located in Wuhan.
...
Covid-19 Has Novel Properties
In late January, Indian researchers publish a now-retracted paper that claimed to have found “HIV insertions” in the Wuhan coronavirus. They took this as evidence that the virus may have been manmade.

They stated the following:

This is startling as it is quite unlikely for a virus to have acquired such unique insertions naturally in a short duration of time. This structural change might have also increased the range of host cells that 2019-nCoV can infect
...
now, research from the Nankai University in Tianjin, China is reporting similar findings.

According to the new research, Covid-19’s ability to bind to cells is 100 to 1,000 times stronger than SARS. They claim that, unlike other coronaviruses, Covid-19 attacks a protein called furin – just like Ebola and HIV. They believe this is the reason why the virus seems to be significantly more infectious than similar diseases like SARS and MERS.

Covid-19’s unique furin pathway could be the reason why some doctors are finding limited success in treating the virus with HIV antiviral drugs.
...
Covid-19’s unique HIV-like properties support the controversial theory that the virus originated in a lab – specifically the Wuhan Institute of Virology located near the epicenter of the outbreak.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on May 18, 2020, 02:51:02 PM
This may be the worst attempt at gaslighting ever.

https://www.inquisitr.com/6059852/pentagon-contractor-coronavirus-report-false/amp/ (https://www.inquisitr.com/6059852/pentagon-contractor-coronavirus-report-false/amp/)
Pentagon Contractor Report Suggesting Coronavirus Came From Wuhan Lab Is Provably False, Claims ‘Daily Beast’

Are the Chinese propagandists even trying anymore?  Guarded roadblocks were just routine street maintenance?  Cancelled conference wasnt cancelled because they have a selfie (despite dozens of attendees saying it was cut short after Shi was escorted out under guard)?  It is just common for the cell phones of top lab personnel to be turned off for weeks so nothing to see there? 

Meanwhile, after release of report, Xi agrees to "independent" investigation run by his WHO lapdog and sending billions to other countries to garner their support. Also, he wants to delay the investigation until after the pandemic has subsided (ie.until after US election when he hopes can exert influence on a new president once again).

https://www.usnews.com/news/world-report/articles/2020-05-18/xi-jinping-pledges-to-support-virus-investigation-as-china-casts-doubt-on-its-origin (https://www.usnews.com/news/world-report/articles/2020-05-18/xi-jinping-pledges-to-support-virus-investigation-as-china-casts-doubt-on-its-origin)
Xi Pledges to Support Virus Investigation as China Casts Doubt on its Origin
The commitment comes even as Chinese state media says COVID-19 may have begun in the U.S.


Though public health experts consider China the source of the virus, it has publicly acknowledged only 84,000 cases – a fraction of the almost 5 million cases globally – and 4,600 deaths.
....
"China supports the idea of a comprehensive review of the global response to COVID-19 after it is brought under control to sum up experience and address deficiencies," he said. "This work should be based on science and professionalism, led by WHO and conducted in an objective and impartial manner."

Xi said China would provide $2 billion to developing countries to help with their responses to the spread of the coronavirus and will partner with 30 African countries to help strengthen their public health infrastructures.
...
Beijing has since imposed punitive measures against countries that have openly criticized its handling of the virus, including considering sanctions against individual U.S. politicians pushing legal action against China – an unprecedented move – and boycotting Australian goods after it called for an international investigation into the virus' origin. Xi did not address Australia's proposal on Monday.

The country has also attempted to shift the international narrative away from conclusions that the virus originated in Wuhan. As Xi spoke, Chinese state media promoted a theory that the virus actually originated in the U.S., not in China.


Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on May 18, 2020, 06:02:38 PM
Knock, knock.
   Who's there?
Scientists. 
    Scientists WHO?
No, real scientists.
     Crap, lock the door and burn everything!

https://amp.sbs.com.au/v1/article/coalition-of-62-countries-back-australia-s-push-for-covid-19-pandemic-probe/8ba9681a-2b09-4ef8-bfde-8756e8fb0779 (https://amp.sbs.com.au/v1/article/coalition-of-62-countries-back-australia-s-push-for-covid-19-pandemic-probe/8ba9681a-2b09-4ef8-bfde-8756e8fb0779)
Coalition of 116 countries back Australia's push for independent coronavirus inquiry

More than 110 countries have backed Australia's push for an independent coronavirus inquiry which has caused a damaging rift with China.

The African Group's 54 member states will co-sponsor the motion, joining 62 other countries including Russia, Indonesia, India, Japan, Britain and Canada.
...
"I think the most important thing, rather than apportioning blame to one particular country or another country, is that we get to the bottom of what's happened. And part of that is about the origin, where this virus came from," he told reporters.
...
Beijing's man in Canberra raised the prospect of consumer boycotts of Australian products because of the push for an inquiry.

Since then, the barley threat has surfaced, while four major Australian abattoirs have been blocked from sending their product to China.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: Morning Sunshine on May 18, 2020, 06:35:37 PM
Since then, the barley threat has surfaced, while four major Australian abattoirs have been blocked from sending their product to China.[/i]

so china is blocking imports of FOOD from Australia, and presumably other countries that agree with them?  Bring it. 
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on May 19, 2020, 07:45:39 AM
WHO is the health organization for the whole world, except  when China says otherwise.  The country with the greatest independent insight into what happened in China must be excluded from all discussions.  Time to permanently cut all funding to WHO and replace them with an independent, non-corrupted organization

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2020/05/19/taiwan-says-it-is-disappointed-and-angry-being-excluded-from-who-meeting.html (https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2020/05/19/taiwan-says-it-is-disappointed-and-angry-being-excluded-from-who-meeting.html)
Taiwan 'disappointed and angry' about being excluded from WHO meeting, says it is developing its own coronavirus vaccine

We feel disappointed and angry about WHO's decision of not inviting Taiwan to join this year's WHA, we feel we have so much to share about our successful experiences in this Covid-19 outbreak response" said Yi-Chun Lo, deputy director general at Taiwan Centers for Disease Control.
...
Taiwan has been lobbying to join this year's meeting as an observer after its success with containing the coronavirus outbreak. But it faced strong opposition from China
. .
Due to its exclusion from the WHO, Taiwan is relying on its own efforts in the race for a vaccine with health authorities working with academia and other industry partners.


How Taiwan, whose Vice President is considered one of the top epidimiologists in the world, contained COVID-19 and itsviews on its origin:

https://youtu.be/G1potR0eXA4 (https://youtu.be/G1potR0eXA4)
Taiwan’s vice president says 'possibility' that Covid-19 came from Chinese laboratory

In an interview with FRANCE 24, Taiwan’s Vice President Chen Chien-jen, an epidemiologist by training, discussed his country’s handling of the Covid-19 pandemic, while criticising the response of China and the World Health Organization. Chen refused to rule out the "possibility" that the coronavirus originated in a Chinese laboratory
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: Mr. Bill on May 20, 2020, 05:37:46 PM
This article gives an overview of the early spread of the virus.  It doesn't pin down a specific origin, but it describes how this particular virus turned into a pandemic.

5/12/20: COVID-19: The Conjunction of Events Leading to the Coronavirus Pandemic and Lessons to Learn for Future Threats (https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fmed.2020.00223/full)

Quote
Originally identified in December 2019 in Wuhan, China, SARS-CoV-2 has become a pandemic owing to a long period of incubation, a high number of asymptomatic cases, and high international mobility. Here we consider the unique conjunction of events that allowed this new coronavirus to emerge and create a pandemic. ...

The emergence of COVID-19 is the result of an exceptional “planetary alignment,” a specific coincidence of unrelated natural and societal traits. ... Although it cannot be excluded, there is no evidence of direct coronavirus infection of humans from bats. ... Similarly [to SARS and MERS], an intermediate animal might have been involved in the emergence of COVID-19. SARS-CoV-2 could possibly infect pangolin, cat, civet, cow, buffalo, swine, goat, sheep, and pigeon. ...epidemiological data show that early cases of COVID-19 were not related to HSWM [the Huanan seafood wholesale market] and thus that it is not the site of emergence. Phylogenetic studies suggest that SARS-CoV-2 might have circulated in Wuhan as early as October 2019 and that the virus then spread at low-level from person to person (the latency phase), before being imported to HSWM where it was detected in December 2019. The location of the first human infection will most likely remain unknown. Contamination through traditional medicine, pets, or any other contact event between humans and the source of the virus, including the handling of viruses in a laboratory, must be considered. The initial contact might also have taken place in farms, since anthropized rural areas offer favorable environments for the transmission of coronaviruses. In this latency phase, the infection remained silent, spreading in a stochastic way within the population, with no epidemic identified yet.

... To move from the latency phase to the epidemic phase, an amplification process must occur to reach the threshold needed to trigger an epidemic. The outbreak was initially detected in the Jiang'an district, which is home to the environmentally-conscious Baibuting urban community, which holds a traditional folk festival known as Wan Jia Yan or Great Family Feast every year. The 20th such event, organized on January 18, 2020, coincided with the very popular Lunar New Year celebration. More than 40,000 families, who prepared about 14,000 traditional dishes, attended Wan Jia Yan in January 2020. ... What triggered the epidemic is the simultaneous occurrence of two major celebrations in the same place, bringing many people into contact with the initially infected persons and providing the amplification phase needed. Another key step was mobility. The Chinese New Year is associated with an outbound mass mobilization known as Chun Yun, and Wuhan is both the heart of the Yangtze River Economic Belt and a major national hub in China known as “the gateway of nine provinces.” An estimated 5 million people left Wuhan during Chun Yun in 2020. Furthermore, Wuhan welcomes 1.2 million college students, whose mobility during holidays is extremely high. Outbound traveling from Wuhan may explain why Wenzhou, in the neighboring province of Zhejiang, became one of the most severely affected areas. At that stage, it was too late to stop the epidemic, and measures could not be anything but post-event reactions. The expansion was driven in secondary foci by people who moved from the initial location of the epidemic. In each of these foci, the same processes of latency, amplification, and epidemic were reiterated with variable delays. This is why SARS-CoV-2 was not stopped despite drastic measures of containment and quarantine. The next step, global dissemination, was only a matter of dissemination due to intensive international mobility and global international trade. ...
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on May 21, 2020, 08:02:13 AM
https://www.theweek.in/news/world/2020/05/19/novel-coronavirus-is-human-made-says-australia-study.amp.html (https://www.theweek.in/news/world/2020/05/19/novel-coronavirus-is-human-made-says-australia-study.amp.html)
Novel coronavirus is human-made, says Australia study
New study finds evidence of a sign of human intervention in COVID-19 pandemic


The team led by Nikolai Petrovsky, Professor of Medicine at Flinders University, has suggested that SARS-CoV-2 was likely genetically engineered that led the virus naturally evolving in an animal subject to be effective at attaching to human cells.
...
The team observed that “the novel coronavirus most powerfully binds with human ACE2, and with variously lesser degrees of effectiveness with animal versions of the receptor.”

Thus the study suggests that the deadly virus was manufactured in a laboratory in order to penetrate human cells.

 “A virus would be expected to have highest affinity for the receptor in its original host species, e.g. bat, with a lower initial binding affinity for the receptor of any new host, e.g. humans. However, in this case, the affinity of SARS-CoV-2 is higher for humans than for the putative original host species, bats, or for any potential intermediary host species,” the study pointed out.
...
“there are some highly unusual features, including optimal human adaptation, that in the absence of identification of a close to identical virus in an animal population from which COVID19 could have arisen, would point in the direction of human intervention at some point in the evolution of COVID19.”
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on May 21, 2020, 08:30:46 AM
https://www.wionews.com/opinions-blogs/explained-scientific-indications-that-show-covid-19-is-man-made-298868/amp (https://www.wionews.com/opinions-blogs/explained-scientific-indications-that-show-covid-19-is-man-made-298868/amp)
Explained: Scientific indications that show COVID-19 is man-made

The Chinese Communist Party (CCP), some Western scientists sympathetic to China and the obsequious media have expended enormous efforts to convince the public that the COVID-19 pandemic is a naturally-occurring outbreak of disease.

Included in that effort are restrictions imposed by the Chinese government on academic research related to the origins of COVID-19, in what is likely part of a wider attempt to control the narrative surrounding the origin of the pandemic.

There are now rumours swirling within the global scientific community that Western professional journals are submitting to pressure from Beijing and refusing to publish data that do not conform to the naturally-occurring interpretation of the origin of COVID-19.
...
There is additional information now being discussed on virology blogs indicating that COVID-19 is not naturally-occurring because its differential ratio of synonymous to non-synonymous substitution is vastly different compared to that which occurs in nature among bat populations as well as natural factors that would select against the presence of a furin polybasic cleavage site.

China’s ongoing propaganda campaign and its associated Western censorship will not stop honest scientific inquiry from discovering the true origin of COVID-19.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on May 24, 2020, 08:46:29 AM
After months of claiming they had no live strains of bat coronavirus, the Wuhan Lab finally admitted they did when internal workers (probably one of the expelled French scientists) leaked the info.  Now they are claiming that the strains, which until a few days ago supposedly didnt exist, werent a match but will neither allow anyone to look at the records or talk to the staff involved. 

So, if they didnt have the live viruses there until after the outbreak, how did they conduct all the research the US taxpayer spent millions on?  What do you say, Mr. Bill?  How did they do those animal passage studies without live viruses?

https://nypost.com/2020/05/24/wuhan-lab-admits-to-having-three-live-strains-of-bat-coronavirus/amp/ (https://nypost.com/2020/05/24/wuhan-lab-admits-to-having-three-live-strains-of-bat-coronavirus/amp/)
Wuhan lab admits to having three live strains of bat coronavirus on site
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: Mr. Bill on May 24, 2020, 09:39:43 AM
What do you say, Mr. Bill?

I'm tied up with personal issues and don't have time to look into this right now.

I did run across this article yesterday, but it's Chinese-funded research so you can ignore it:

Close Genetic Relative of SARS-CoV-2 Found in Bats Offers More Evidence It Evolved Naturally (https://scitechdaily.com/close-genetic-relative-of-sars-cov-2-found-in-bats-offers-more-evidence-it-evolved-naturally/)

Quote
...Recently, in the journal Current Biology, researchers describe a recently identified bat coronavirus that is SARS-CoV-2’s closest relative in some regions of the genome and which contains insertions of amino acids at the junction of the S1 and S2 subunits of the virus’s spike protein in a manner similar to SAR-CoV-2. While it’s not a direct evolutionary precursor of SARS-CoV-2, this new virus, RmYN02, suggests that these types of seemingly unusual insertion events can occur naturally in coronavirus evolution, the researchers say.

“Since the discovery of SARS-CoV-2 there have been a number of unfounded suggestions that the virus has a laboratory origin,” says senior author Weifeng Shi, director and professor at the Institute of Pathogen Biology at Shandong First Medical University in China. “In particular, it has been proposed the S1/S2 insertion is highly unusual and perhaps indicative of laboratory manipulation. Our paper shows very clearly that these events occur naturally in wildlife. This provides strong evidence against SARS-CoV-2 being a laboratory escape.” ...
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: Morning Sunshine on May 24, 2020, 09:59:54 AM
So, if they didnt have the live viruses there until after the outbreak, how did they conduct all the research the US taxpayer spent millions on?  What do you say, Mr. Bill?  How did they do those animal passage studies without live viruses?



but it's Chinese-funded research so you can ignore it:

not a mod here, and I know that this issue is divisive, but let's keep our discussion civil?  I am learning a lot from both of you, and I suspect you are both as well.  A healthy debate is good, but I feel you guys are starting to get personally involved and emotions are starting to get involved.  I would hate for this informative discussion to get shut down and we all loose out on the experience you both bring to this forum

and maybe I am reading too much into this.  Online text-only communication is - at best - only 50% of good communication.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: Mr. Bill on May 24, 2020, 02:44:00 PM
not a mod here, and I know that this issue is divisive, but let's keep our discussion civil?

You're right.  I apologize.

I've got too much stuff going on in my personal life (mostly involving parents who are 96 and 94), and I'm letting my mood affect my posts here.  Sorry.

With regard to coronavirus, although I want to know how it originated, my major concern right now is not getting infected and carrying the virus to vulnerable family members.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: FreeLancer on May 24, 2020, 05:22:55 PM
With regard to coronavirus, although I want to know how it originated, my major concern right now is not getting infected and carrying the virus to vulnerable family members.


As we all should.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on May 25, 2020, 09:04:01 AM
You're right.  I apologize.

I've got too much stuff going on in my personal life (mostly involving parents who are 96 and 94), and I'm letting my mood affect my posts here.  Sorry.

Hope things sort out ok for you.  It was my bad, not yours.  I was going for a little friendly ribbing but obviously went over the line.  So please accept my apology.

And thank you Morning Sunshine for the intervention.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on May 25, 2020, 09:31:42 AM
EU and France knew about the problems at lab but failed to act. France now admits that their entire oversight group of 50 lab experts were denied access by China to the lab prior to the incident in violation of their agreement.  So not only were the handful of French contractors expelled who warned that a leak was imminent given China cutting corners, but there were no experienced lab technicians present.  French intelligence worried they just handed over their expertise to China to potentially be used for bioweapon development.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8351113/Wuhan-virus-lab-signed-Michel-Barnier-2004-despite-French-intelligence-warnings.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8351113/Wuhan-virus-lab-signed-Michel-Barnier-2004-despite-French-intelligence-warnings.html)
Wuhan virus lab was signed off by EU Brexit chief Michel Barnier in 2004 - despite French intelligence warnings that China's poor bio-security reputation could lead to a catastrophic leak

The construction of the Chinese laboratory at the centre of mounting suspicion over the source of the Covid-19 pandemic was signed off by the EU’s chief Brexit negotiator Michel Barnier – despite warnings by French intelligence services.

Mr Barnier – currently embroiled in acrimonious negotiations with the UK over a post-Brexit trade deal – was the French foreign minister when he gave the go-ahead for work to start on the Wuhan Institute of Virology in 2004, under a joint deal with the Chinese.

The move came despite strong opposition from French diplomatic and security advisers, who argued that the Chinese reputation for poor bio-security could lead to a catastrophic leak.

They also warned that Paris could lose control of the project, and even suggested that Beijing could harness the technology to make biowarfare weapons.

Eleven years later, as the laboratory prepared to open, the French architects of the project complained that they had, as feared, been ousted by the Chinese communist government.
...
The site was carrying out research on coronaviruses when the outbreak started in the city last November.

A growing number of scientific and security experts are now questioning the Chinese government’s insistence that the virus originated in a wildlife market in Wuhan, with Beijing’s refusal to allow an international investigation only adding to the growing suspicions.
...
Last week, The Mail on Sunday revealed that experts now believe the coronavirus was taken into the market by someone already carrying the disease.

Biologists who carried out a landmark study say they were ‘surprised’ to find the virus was ‘already pre-adapted to human transmission’.

Jacques Chirac, the French president at the time of the deal, pushed for the Wuhan institute to be set up after the 2003 SARS outbreak, which affected 26 countries and resulted in more than 8,000 cases and 774 deaths. Mr Chirac, along with his pro-Beijing prime minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin, promised French funding and expertise in return for a share of the intellectual copyright on the lab’s discoveries.
...
According to a report in France’s Le Figaro newspaper, institutions such as the General Directorate for External Security, the French equivalent of MI6, expressed repeated concern at the lack of international control over Chinese laboratories and issues with ‘transparency’.

A source told the newspaper: ‘What you have to understand is that a P4 [high-level bio-security] laboratory is like a nuclear reprocessing plant. It’s a bacteriological atomic bomb.

‘The viruses that are tested are extremely dangerous – diving suits, decontamination airlocks etc must be followed to the letter.’

As part of the deal, up to 50 French scientists were expected to travel to Wuhan to help the Chinese run the laboratory properly – but they never went.
...
Alain Merieux, the French billionaire who was instrumental in setting up the Wuhan laboratory in partnership with his Institut Merieux in Lyons, abandoned the project in 2015, saying: ‘I am giving up the co-chairmanship of [the] P4 [laboratory], a Chinese tool. It belongs to them, even if it was developed with technical assistance from France.’

According to Le Figaro, a diplomat with a close knowledge of the deal added: ‘We knew the risks involved and thought that the Chinese would control everything and quickly eject us from the project.

‘We believed that providing this cutting-edge technology to a country with an endless power agenda would risk exposing France in return.’

Their fears were compounded in 2015 when China implemented a new policy of ‘dual use’ technologies, which allows their armed forces to use any civilian technology for military purposes.


The Wuhan institute became operational in January 2018, and coincided with a visit to Beijing by current French president Emmanuel Macron and Mr Raffarin, who was made a ‘special envoy to China.
...
Petrovsky, professor of medicine at Flinders University in Adelaide, runs a biotech research unit that will start human trials for a Covid-19 vaccine next month.

‘I haven’t seen a zoonotic virus that has behaved in this way before,’
he said.
...
He told The Mail on Sunday that new viruses crossing over from animals normally strengthen as they adapt to human hosts, but for unexplained reasons, this new coronavirus seems perfectly adapted to infect humans without the need to evolve.

He pointed to the ‘coincidence’ that the most closely related known viruses were being studied in a laboratory in Wuhan, the Chinese city where the pandemic erupted, and insisted that the possibility of a leak, however remote, should not be ignored in the search for its origin.

‘The implications may not be good for scientists or global politics, but just because the answers might cause problems, we can’t run away from them,’
...
Prof Petrovsky has gone further than any other expert in raising the idea that the virus escaped from one of two laboratories researching bat viruses in Wuhan.

Richard Ebright, one of the world’s top biosecurity experts, also told this newspaper that the odds of this new virus containing such unusual features and occurring naturally were ‘possible – but improbable’.
...
Last week, the MoS revealed details of a key study challenging China’s claims that the pandemic emerged from a Wuhan animal market in December. The researchers were ‘surprised’ to find the virus ‘already pre-adapted to human transmission’, contrasting its stability with another coronavirus that evolved rapidly as it spread around the planet during the 2002-04 SARS epidemic. Their findings are backed by the Australian team’s study into the ‘spike protein’ that binds Sars-CoV-2 – the new strain of coronavirus that causes disease – to cells in human bodies. The research, posted on Cornell University’s website but not yet peer-reviewed, used computer modelling to test the spike protein’s ability to bind to humans and 12 possible animal hosts.

It found the ability to bind to human cells far exceeded its ability in other species. ‘This indicates Sars-CoV-2 is a highly adapted human pathogen,’ it said, ‘raising questions as to whether it arose in nature by a rare chance event or whether its origins lie elsewhere.’
...
This is either a remarkable coincidence or a sign of human intervention,’ he said. ‘It is possible the virus was a fluke event and it turns out humans were the perfect host.

‘But we don’t have evidence for this because no one has found this virus in an intermediate host animal [for example pangolin] yet.

‘No one can say a laboratory leak is not a possibility.’

He claimed that scientists were reluctant to discuss the possibility of botched lab experiments or leaks since any backlash could lead to research restrictions and threaten crucial research. However, he added, it was vital to discover the source of the virus.

Prof Petrovsky said that if Sars-CoV-2 was a natural event, another related virus could erupt again from the same source with even more devastating consequences. ‘Next time, it could have far worse mortality rates,’ he warned.

He also highlighted the ‘furin cleavage site’, which allows the spike protein to bind to cells in human tissues including the lungs, liver and small intestines.
...
Previous studies have noted the efficiency of this cleavage method, which does not exist in the most similar coronaviruses – although researchers in 2009 modified the SARS virus to introduce a furin cleavage site in a similar position to Sars-CoV-2 and found this increased the infectivity of the virus.

In the latest study published on Friday, three German scientists highlighted how this cleavage site was essential for the infection of human lung cells. One US expert in biomedical sciences, who did not wish to be named, said there was no direct evidence to support the idea that the virus was engineered or leaked from a lab, although ‘the location of the acquired furin mutation is quite surprising’.

Another leading research scientist said a member of his team ‘went a bit pale when he looked at this’.

A paper earlier this year by Yong-Zhen Zhang, the Chinese diseases expert who published the first genome sequence for Sars-CoV-2, said this was ‘arguably the most important’ difference between the new virus and its closest known relative, which was derived from a bat by Wuhan researchers.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on May 25, 2020, 07:55:46 PM
https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/coronavirus/bombshell-dossier-lays-out-case-against-chinese-bat-virus-program/news-story/55add857058731c9c71c0e96ad17da60 (https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/coronavirus/bombshell-dossier-lays-out-case-against-chinese-bat-virus-program/news-story/55add857058731c9c71c0e96ad17da60)
Coronavirus NSW: Dossier lays out case against China bat virus program

China deliberately suppressed or destroyed evidence of the coronavirus outbreak in an “assault on international transparency’’ that cost tens of thousands of lives, according to a dossier prepared by concerned Western governments on the COVID-19 contagion.

The 15-page research document, obtained by The Saturday Telegraph, lays the foundation for the case of negligence being mounted against China.

It states that to the “endangerment of other countries” the Chinese government covered-up news of the virus by silencing or “disappearing” doctors who spoke out, destroying evidence of it in laboratories and refusing to provide live samples to international scientists who were working on a vaccine.

It can also be revealed the Australian government trained and funded a team of Chinese scientists who belong to a laboratory which went on to genetically modify deadly coronaviruses that could be transmitted from bats to humans and had no cure, and is now the subject of a probe into the origins of COVID-19.

As intelligence agencies investigate whether the virus inadvertently leaked from a Wuhan laboratory, the team and its research led by scientist Shi Zhengli feature in the dossier prepared by Western governments that points to several studies they conducted as areas of concern.

It cites their work discovering samples of coronavirus from a cave in the Yunnan province with striking genetic similarity to COVID-19, along with their research synthesising a bat-derived coronavirus that could not be treated.

Its major themes include the “deadly denial of human-to-human transmission”, the silencing or “disappearing” of doctors and scientists who spoke out, the destruction of evidence of the virus from genomic studies laboratories, and “bleaching of wildlife market stalls”, along with the refusal to provide live virus samples to international scientists working on a vaccine.
...
RISKY BAT RESEARCH
In Wuhan, in China’s Hubei province, not far from the now infamous Wuhan wet market, Dr Shi and her team work in high-protective gear in level-three and level-four bio-containment laboratories studying deadly bat-derived coronaviruses.

At least one of the ­estimated 50 virus samples Dr Shi has in her laboratory is a 96 per cent genetic match to COVID-19. When Dr Shi heard the news about the outbreak of a new ­pneumonia-like virus, she spoke about the sleepless nights she suffered worrying whether it was her lab that was responsible for the outbreak.
...
The US’s position, according to reports this week, is that it is more likely the virus leaked from a laboratory
...
Dr Shi’s protégé, Peng Zhou — now the head of the Bat Virus Infection and Immunity Project at the Wuhan Institute of Virology — spent three years at the bio-containment facility Australian Animal Health Laboratory between 2011 and 2014. He was sent by China to complete his doctorate at the CSIRO from 2009-2010.

During this time, Dr Zhou arranged for wild-caught bats to be transported alive by air from Queensland to the lab in Victoria where they were euthanised for dissection and studied for deadly viruses.

Dr Linfa Wang, while an Honorary Professor of the Wuhan Institute of Virology between 2005 and 2011, also worked in the CSIRO Office of the Chief Executive Science Leader in Virology between 2008 and 2011.

Federal Liberal Senator Sarah Henderson said it was “very concerning” that Chinese scientists had been conducting research into bat viruses at the CSIRO in Geelong, Victoria, in jointly funded projects between the Australian and Chinese governments.

“We need to exercise extreme care with any research projects involving foreign nationals which may compromise our national security or biosecurity,”
she said...
...
CHINA’S COVER-UP OF EARLY SAMPLES
The paper obtained by The Saturday Telegraph speaks about “the suppression and destruction of evidence” and points to “virus samples ordered destroyed at genomics labs, wildlife market stalls bleached, the genome sequence not shared publicly, the Shanghai lab closure for ‘rectification’, academic articles subjected to prior review by the Ministry of Science and Technology and data on asymptomatic ‘silent carriers’ kept secret”.

It paints a picture of how the Chinese government deliberately covered up the coronavirus by silencing doctors who spoke out, destroying evidence from the Wuhan laboratory and refusing to provide live virus samples to international scientists working on a vaccine.

The US, along with other countries, has repeatedly ­demanded a live virus sample from the first batch of coronavirus cases. This is understood to have not been forthcoming despite its vital importance in developing a vaccine while potentially providing an indication of where the virus originated.

THE LAB WORKER WHO DISAPPEARED
Out of all the doctors, activists, journalists and scientists who have reportedly disappeared after speaking out about the coronavirus or criticising the response of Chinese authorities, no case is more intriguing and worrying than that of Huang Yan Ling.

A researcher at the Wuhan Institute of Virology, the South China Morning Post reported rumours swirling on Chinese social media that she was the first to be diagnosed with the disease and was ­“patient zero”.

Then came her reported disappearance, with her biography and image deleted from the Wuhan Institute of Virology’s website.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on May 26, 2020, 06:44:47 AM
Could you please secretly Fedex over your deadliest viruses?  We will pay you handsomely in overseas bank accounts.

https://nationalpost.com/news/covid-19-pandemic-wuhan-institute-of-virology-ebola-national-microbiology-laboratory/amp (https://nationalpost.com/news/covid-19-pandemic-wuhan-institute-of-virology-ebola-national-microbiology-laboratory/amp)
In mystery investigation of two Canadian scientists, a request for Ebola, henipavirus from the Wuhan lab
.
Xiangguo Qiu was a star at the National Microbiology Laboratory, Canada’s premier disease-research facility.
...
That reputation made it all the more shocking when she and her biologist husband, Keding Cheng, were escorted from the lab last July as internal and RCMP investigations got underway.
...
But a year later, those inquiries have yet to be completed, the two scientists appear still in limbo and the Public Health Agency of Canada, which employs them, has revealed another link between the affair and Wuhan, the Chinese city that several months later became the likely source of the COVID-19 pandemic.

A shipment of Ebola and henipavirus samples to China, previously disclosed by the agency and first reported by the National Post, was requested specifically by the Wuhan Institute of Virology, said Eric Morrissette, an agency spokesman. The institute runs the country’s lone BSL-4 disease lab, similar to the Winnipeg-based NML and the highest-security facility for handling pathogens.
...
Qiu helped train staff at the Wuhan lab, among several trips she took to her native China in recent years.
...
“They have told the staff nothing, other than a ridiculous order last summer that we’re not allowed to discuss it or speculate about what may be going on,” said one Public Health Agency employee, not authorized to speak on the record. “Many of us think it is such a huge story that they are trying to keep buried for some pretty serious reasons. We just don’t know what those are.”
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on May 27, 2020, 09:27:40 PM
Poll results from YouGov Survey
Sample 1500 US Adult citizens
Conducted May 3-5, 2020
Margin of Error ±3.2%

Generally speaking, do you think of yourself as a...?
Democrat.     33%
Republican.   29%
Independent. 28%
Other.                2%
Not sure.          8%

How closely are you following the news about COVID-19?
Very closely                 41%
Somewhat closely      46%

Not very closely          12%
Not following at all.      2%

Do you consider the countries listed below to be an ally or an enemy of the United States?
           Ally.  Friendly.  Unfriendly.  Enemy.  Not sure
China. 4%       13%           38%           28%         17%

Do you think China's handling of the COVID-19 outbreak led to the worldwide pandemic?
Yes           66%
No            14%
Not sure  20%

Do you believe it is true or false that a laboratory in China was the origin of the virus responsible for COVID-19?
Denitely true.    18%
Probably true.   31%

Probably false. 18%
Denitely false.   10%
Not sure             22%

Do you think the U.S. should or should not take some action for the express purpose of punishing China for the COVID-19 pandemic?
Should take some action to punish China                39%
Should not take some action to punish China.        33%
Not sure.                                                                         28%
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: FreeLancer on May 27, 2020, 09:54:28 PM
Reality by referendum.....
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: Hurricane on May 28, 2020, 05:03:51 PM
Do you think the U.S. should or should not take some action for the express purpose of punishing China for the COVID-19 pandemic?
Should take some action to punish China                39%
Should not take some action to punish China.        33%
Not sure.                                                                         28%
Interesting that this is as close as it is, given the other answers. I would have expected more in favor of taking action.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on May 28, 2020, 06:22:16 PM
Interesting that this is as close as it is, given the other answers. I would have expected more in favor of taking action.

Well, the US didnt "punish" Russia for Chernobyl.  Most probably just want pressure put on them to make sure it never happens again. 

That is why the pandemic origin deniers' actions are so damaging, they are enabling China to avoid taking responsibility for the leak thereby sabotaging efforts to put in place systems to avoid furture issues.   

From my experience, pretty much everyone in the scientific community just wants China to get onboard with basic safety protocols and ethical norms.  Lab leaks, genetically modifying babies, growing animals with human brains, etc is turning people negative towards science.

Some are worried that research funding is going to be slashed because of this.  Lots of letters are circulating for signatures right now to keep the funds flowing.  it's also why so many arent speaking up, they want it to be handled quietly to avoid losing funders.

On the other hand, imagine how all the scientists in France feel who built the lab but knew the Chinese couldnt run it and this was going to happen.  Or the Canadian scientists who brought on a visiting researcher who was essentially a spy who acquired Ebola samples from them.  Or the family members of those "vanished" in China.  It doesnt seem wise to just let this fade away.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on May 28, 2020, 06:38:11 PM
Further background.

https://asiatimes.com/2020/05/the-hazards-of-human-animal-chimera-experiments/ (https://asiatimes.com/2020/05/the-hazards-of-human-animal-chimera-experiments/)
The peril of human-animal chimera experiments
China is viewed as a giant test tube for all kinds of dangerous and ethically controversial research


Recent revelations that the US National Institute of Health (NIH) had been funding gain-of-function (GOF) research in the Wuhan Institute of Virology has shone a spotlight on China’s controversial research in biomedical sciences. 
...
Not only does China engage in GOF research, it also conducts another controversial experiment – creating human-animal chimeras for vaccines and organ transplants. A chimera is an organism whose cells come from two or more “individuals,” and the word comes from Greek mythology, which describes a creature that was part lion, part goat and part snake.

China provides legal loopholes

Because of more stringent regulations of public health and bioethics in the US and other Western countries, American and European scientists tend to outsource GOF and chimeric research to China, where it does not face such restrictions. 

For example, when the Chinese Academy of Science’s Kunming Institute of Zoology created the first human-monkey chimera in July 2019, the project was led by a Spanish scientist, Professor Juan Carlos Izpisua Belmonte
...
China is thus viewed as a dumping ground and giant test tube for all kinds of dangerous and ethically controversial research outlawed by Western countries, similar to how it became a dumping ground for recyclable waste in past decades.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on May 28, 2020, 08:16:37 PM
https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/executive-order-preventing-online-censorship/ (https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/executive-order-preventing-online-censorship/)
Executive Order on Preventing Online Censorship

Free speech is the bedrock of American democracy.  Our Founding Fathers protected this sacred right with the First Amendment to the Constitution.  The freedom to express and debate ideas is the foundation for all of our rights as a free people.

In a country that has long cherished the freedom of expression, we cannot allow a limited number of online platforms to hand pick the speech that Americans may access and convey on the internet.  This practice is fundamentally un-American and anti-democratic.  When large, powerful social media companies censor opinions with which they disagree, they exercise a dangerous power.  They cease functioning as passive bulletin boards, and ought to be viewed and treated as content creators.
...
Online platforms are engaging in selective censorship that is harming our national discourse.  Tens of thousands of Americans have reported, among other troubling behaviors, online platforms “flagging” content as inappropriate, even though it does not violate any stated terms of service; making unannounced and unexplained changes to company policies that have the effect of disfavoring certain viewpoints; and deleting content and entire accounts with no warning, no rationale, and no recourse.
...
At the same time online platforms are invoking inconsistent, irrational, and groundless justifications to censor or otherwise restrict Americans’ speech here at home, several online platforms are profiting from and promoting the aggression and disinformation spread by foreign governments like China. One United States company, for example, created a search engine for the Chinese Communist Party that would have blacklisted searches for “human rights,” hid data unfavorable to the Chinese Communist Party, and tracked users determined appropriate for surveillance.  It also established research partnerships in China that provide direct benefits to the Chinese military.  Other companies have accepted advertisements paid for by the Chinese government that spread false information about China’s mass imprisonment of religious minorities, thereby enabling these abuses of human rights.  They have also amplified China’s propaganda abroad, including by allowing Chinese government officials to use their platforms to spread misinformation regarding the origins of the COVID-19 pandemic, and to undermine pro-democracy protests in Hong Kong.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: FreeLancer on May 28, 2020, 08:38:58 PM
Be careful what you wish for.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on May 28, 2020, 08:54:37 PM
The story was so absurd even the Chinese CDC has had to abandon it.  They admit virus entered Wuhan market via humans just like Western scientists and intelligence agents have been reporting.  Of course, Americans have a good idea where it came from.  What they still arent admitting, though it was commonly known in Wuhan, is that earliest cases had connections to lab.

https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-did-not-jump-wuhan-market-chinese-cdc-says-2020-5?amp (https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-did-not-jump-wuhan-market-chinese-cdc-says-2020-5?amp)
The Chinese CDC now says the coronavirus didn't jump to people at the Wuhan wet market — instead, it was the site of a super-spreader event

Experts still don't know where the new coronavirus came from.
...
Initially, authorities in Wuhan, China, reported that the first cases of the virus emerged at the local Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market. But following an investigation of the animals sold there, the Chinese Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) said this week that it has ruled the site out as the origin point of the outbreak.

According to the Wall Street Journal, Gao Fu, the director of the Chinese CDC, told Chinese state media: "It now turns out that the market is one of the victims."
...
Samples collected from animals at the market came back negative for the new coronavirus, suggesting that they couldn't have infected shoppers.
...
A growing body of research supports the Chinese CDC's conclusion that the outbreak's origins were unrelated to the market. The virus seems to have been circulating in Wuhan before those 41 cases were reported: Research published in January showed that the first person to test positive for the coronavirus was likely exposed to it on December 1, then showed symptoms on December 8. The researchers behind the study also found that 13 of the 41 original cases showed no link to the wet market.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: Mr. Bill on May 28, 2020, 09:43:51 PM
Be careful what you wish for.

No kidding.

If that Executive Order is not immediately blocked in court, I can't see how we can keep this forum in operation.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on May 29, 2020, 06:08:19 AM
No kidding.

If that Executive Order is not immediately blocked in court, I can't see how we can keep this forum in operation.

As long as TSPF acts as a neutral platform there won't be any issue at all.  In fact, BBs are expected to flourish under change.  Now if section 230 ends up being repealed because operators can't restrain from pushing agendas and thwarting free speech,, then that will be a problem.

But this is off topic to the thread. 
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: surfivor on May 29, 2020, 11:27:45 AM

 There is a difference between massive censorship and relatively minor censorship. Someone could argue they are censored on TSP, but the numbers are very small overall. I am not sure about anti trust / monopoly type arguments either
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on June 02, 2020, 11:28:50 AM
It takes time to purge the data. WHO lied through their teeth about China cooperating.   The communist party never would have released the genetic map if an independent lab hadnt. 

https://nypost.com/2020/06/02/china-delayed-releasing-critical-coronavirus-data-to-who-report/amp/ (https://nypost.com/2020/06/02/china-delayed-releasing-critical-coronavirus-data-to-who-report/amp/)
China reportedly delayed releasing critical coronavirus data to WHO

China delayed releasing critical information about the coronavirus in the weeks after the outbreak was first reported — even as the World Health Organization publicly lauded the Communist country for its quick response to the pandemic, according to a report Tuesday.
...
WHO officials behind the scenes were frustrated that China was slow-walking their ability to get information to combat the spread of the virus, which had first been reported in late December in Wuhan, China, because they were losing valuable time, according to the report.
...
The Chinese Communist Party did not release the genetic map of the virus for more than a week after three government labs had decoded the information, the report said, because of tight controls on releasing data.

The genetic map was finally released after another lab published it on a virologist website on Jan. 11.

It took the Chinese Communist Party another two weeks to provide the WHO with full data on patients and cases, according to recordings of internal meetings by the United Nations health agency.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: Mr. Bill on June 02, 2020, 04:50:56 PM
https://nypost.com/2020/06/02/china-delayed-releasing-critical-coronavirus-data-to-who-report/amp/ (https://nypost.com/2020/06/02/china-delayed-releasing-critical-coronavirus-data-to-who-report/amp/)
China reportedly delayed releasing critical coronavirus data to WHO

Here is a much more complete version of the story:

AP, 6/2/20: China delayed releasing coronavirus info, frustrating WHO (https://hosted.ap.org/article/3c061794970661042b18d5aeaaed9fae/china-delayed-releasing-coronavirus-info-frustrating-who)
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on June 06, 2020, 08:32:37 AM
China has muzzled scientists speaking on origin of virus, blocked the release of basic information which is required under international treaties, and locked down all communications with Wuhan lab staff.  Now they  are adding torism to their economic attacks on Australia.  Let that sink in. They are willing to destroy billions in economic activity and destroy a neutral party just to hide the virus' origin.

https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2020-06-05/china-issues-alert-warning-against-travel-to-australia-abc-says (https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2020-06-05/china-issues-alert-warning-against-travel-to-australia-abc-says)
China Issues Australia Travel Warning as Relationship Sours

The warning from Australia’s largest trading partner follows the imposition of tariffs on barley shipments after Prime Minister Scott Morrison led calls for an independent probe into the origins of the coronavirus in Wuhan. Australia is the most China-reliant economy in the developed world, leaving it vulnerable to diplomatic blowback.

Australia’s Minister for Trade, Tourism and Investment Simon Birmingham said the Chinese government’s claims were false, the Australian Broadcasting Corporation reported Saturday.

“We reject China’s assertions in this statement, which have no basis in fact,” he said. “Australia is enjoying world-leading success in suppressing the spread of Covid-19 and, when the health advice allows, we look forward to again welcoming visitors from all backgrounds to our safe and hospitable nation.

Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on June 06, 2020, 08:37:03 AM
https://www.foxnews.com/world/ex-mi6-boss-says-coronavirus-likely-engineered-in-wuhan-lab (https://www.foxnews.com/world/ex-mi6-boss-says-coronavirus-likely-engineered-in-wuhan-lab)
Ex-MI6 boss says coronavirus likely engineered in Wuhan lab

A former head of the British intelligence agency MI6 told The Telegraph's Planet Normal podcast that he believes the COVID-19 outbreak was engineered in a lab and spread through coincidence.

"I do think that this started as an accident," Sir Richard Dearlove told the Telegraph, citing a peer-reviewed paper by Professor Angus Dalgleish of St George's Hospital at the University of London, and the Norwegian virologist Birger Sorensen.

The authors said the virus had been doctored to bind to humans: "We are aware that these findings could have political significance and raise troubling questions."

Dearlove added: "[A]s this debate about the virus develops, I think all this material is going to be in print and is going to embarrass a number of people, I think. Let's suggest that the Chinese maybe have too much say in their journals, in what appears and what doesn't."

He added: "Look, the Chinese understand us extremely well. They have made a study of us over the last decade or longer, particularly through attending our universities. We understand the Chinese very poorly. It's an imbalanced relationship in that respect."
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on June 06, 2020, 08:48:01 AM
https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1291862/coronavirus-china-coverup-conspiracy-lab-wuhan-warfare-chemical-covid19-china-new/amp (https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1291862/coronavirus-china-coverup-conspiracy-lab-wuhan-warfare-chemical-covid19-china-new/amp)
UK colonel claims he was told virus came from Wuhan lab

Colonel Kemp has claimed a foreign intelligence source told him COVID-19 was a “man-made variation" and there was a "very high probability” that the invisible killer virus was released unintentionally from the Wuhan Institute of Virology.

The senior military and intelligence expert told the Daily Mirror: “I was told then, by a very credible source, that this was ‘highly probable’.

“As with most things in the intelligence world you can rarely say it is absolutely the case but the term ‘highly probable’ means it is very likely to be the case.

“I was also led to believe governments were very unlikely to come out and say it outright, but that China had been made aware that intelligence agencies had significant evidence.
...
"I have known the source for many years and come to trust this person as serious and not given to false claims.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on June 06, 2020, 08:54:53 AM
https://amp.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/health-problems/coronavirus-may-have-been-created-in-a-wuhan-lab-genetic-engineering-experiment/news-story/6e0a211af696fa2f30d5e7306dbf4780 (https://amp.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/health-problems/coronavirus-may-have-been-created-in-a-wuhan-lab-genetic-engineering-experiment/news-story/6e0a211af696fa2f30d5e7306dbf4780)
Coronavirus may have been created in a Wuhan lab ‘genetic engineering’ experiment

A growing number of scientists are raising the possibility COVID-19 was created in a laboratory, saying the option cannot be ruled out.

Leading immunologists and geneticists have told Sky News that there are two unusual things about COVID-19 that open the door to it being man-made rather than a naturally-occurring virus.

The first curious characteristic of COVID-19 is that the virus binds to human ACE2 receptor cells more strongly than it does to any other animal, including bats.

The second unusual thing about the virus that causes COVID-19 is that it has what’s called a “furin cleavage site” that its closest genetic bat-coronavirus relative, RaTG-13, does not have.

This site makes it significantly more infectious.

Israeli geneticist, Dr Ronen Shemesh, who is working on a treatment for COVID-19, said in his opinion the virus was more likely created in a laboratory than evolved in nature.

“There are many reasons to believe that the COVID-19 generating SARS-CoV-2 was generated in a lab. Most probably by methods of genetic engineering,” he told Sky News.

“I believe that this is the only way an insertion like the furin protease cleavage site could have been introduced directly at the right place and become effective.”

Dr Shemesh points to the insertion of a furin site as the most unusual aspect of COVID-19.

“I believe that the most important issue about the differences between all coronavirus types is the insertion of a furin protease cleavage site at the spike protein of SARS-CoV-2,” he said.

“Such an insertion is very rare in evolution, the addition of such four amino acids alone in the course of only 20 years is very unlikely.”

Dr Shemesh, who has a PhD in genetics and molecular biology from the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, and over 21 years of experience in the field of drug discovery and development, said it is even “more unlikely” that this insertion happened in exactly the right place of the cleavage site of the spike protein – which is where it would need to occur to make the virus more infectious.

“What makes it even more suspicious is that fact that this insertion not only occurred on the right place and in the right time, but also turned the cleavage site from an serine protease cleavage site to a furin cleavage site,” he said.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on June 08, 2020, 03:25:47 PM
Satellite data of traffic at hospitals further confirms timeline of lab leak scenario with cases starting in October.  Outbreak start corresponded directly with shut down of Wuhan lab.. This is in alignment with social media searches of symptoms. 

https://abcnews.go.com/amp/International/satellite-data-suggests-coronavirus-hit-china-earlier-researchers/story?id=71123270 (https://abcnews.go.com/amp/International/satellite-data-suggests-coronavirus-hit-china-earlier-researchers/story?id=71123270)
Satellite data suggests coronavirus may have hit China earlier: Researchers
Researchers say surge in cars at hospitals may indicate outbreak in fall.


(https://s.abcnews.com/images/International/ZhongnanCars_v02_sd_hpEmbed_24x13_992.jpg)
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on June 08, 2020, 03:29:15 PM
Yes they do.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/05/covid-19-created-lab-china-has-urgent-questions-answer/amp/ (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/05/covid-19-created-lab-china-has-urgent-questions-answer/amp/)
Was Covid-19 created in a lab? China has some urgent questions to answer
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on June 11, 2020, 01:39:47 PM
Good interview on this important journal article.

https://youtu.be/oiyTrJehvbU (https://youtu.be/oiyTrJehvbU)
Coronavirus may have been a 'cell-culture experiment' gone wrong

Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on June 11, 2020, 10:11:41 PM
The amount of damage done by the PLA spies he brought into the country is incalculable.  We still dont have details on the secret biochemistry lab he set up there.  But we know the plan was to steal secret information from US companies, send it to China, then they would replicate it and file for patents before the true inventors.  Very clever scheme to launder stolen information.

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5605910 (https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5605910)
Harvard professor indicted, accused of lying about ties to Wuhan university lab

Charles Lieber, the former chair of the department of chemistry and chemical biology, was arrested in January on allegations that he hid his involvement in China's Thousand Talents Plan, a program designed to recruit people with knowledge of foreign technology and intellectual property to China.

Lieber has been indicted by a federal grand jury on two counts of making false statements to authorities – a charge that calls for up to five years in prison if he's convicted, authorities said. Prosecutors say he will be arraigned in federal court at a later date.
...
Authorities say Lieber, 61, was paid $50,000 US a month by the Wuhan University of Technology in China under his Thousand Talents Program contract and awarded more than $1.5 million to establish a research lab at the Chinese university.
...
Authorities say Lieber lied about ties to the program and the university, telling federal authorities that he was never asked to participate in the Thousand Talents Plan. When the National Institutes of Health questioned Harvard about Lieber, the professor caused the school to falsely report that Lieber "is not and has never been a participant in" China's Thousand Talents Plan, prosecutors said.

Harvard said in January that Lieber had been placed on administrative leave.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on June 12, 2020, 07:31:31 AM
https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2020/06/12/twitter-takes-down-china-linked-accounts-spreading-disinformation.html (https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2020/06/12/twitter-takes-down-china-linked-accounts-spreading-disinformation.html)
Twitter takes down China-linked accounts spreading disinformation on Hong Kong and coronavirus

The accounts that Twitter took down also focused on China's response to Covid-19.

"The tweets in this set focused on cheering on the Chinese government epidemic response, calling for Chinese and global unity, painting China as a responsible stakeholder in the international environment," according to Stanford Internet Observatory (SIO), which analysed the removed accounts.
...
"This large-scale pivot to Western platforms is relatively new, and we should expect continued evolution and improvement, given the enormous resourcing the Chinese party-state can bring to bear in aligning state messaging across its diplomacy, state media and covert influence operations," ASPI said.

"The disruption caused by Covid-19 has created a permissive environment for the CCP to experiment with overt manipulation of global social media audiences on Western platforms," it added.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on June 12, 2020, 10:47:46 PM
Uh oh, the left's favorite science group have joined the party.  Oh, and somehow China's dishonesty is Trump's fault.  :rofl:

https://thebulletin.org/2020/06/did-the-sars-cov-2-virus-arise-from-a-bat-coronavirus-research-program-in-a-chinese-laboratory-very-possibly/amp/ (https://thebulletin.org/2020/06/did-the-sars-cov-2-virus-arise-from-a-bat-coronavirus-research-program-in-a-chinese-laboratory-very-possibly/amp/)
Did the SARS-CoV-2 virus arise from a bat coronavirus research program in a Chinese laboratory? Very possibly.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on June 16, 2020, 06:56:19 AM
Remember how China and their supporters claimed the Wuhan lab didn't have Ebola?  They lied and broke numerous national and international laws to acquire it.  The US media called it a conspiracy theory.  Well, now we know it is a conspiracy fact.

https://www.timesnownews.com/amp/international/article/wuhan-lab-received-shipment-of-deadliest-viruses-from-canada-months-before-covid-19-outbreak-report/607345 (https://www.timesnownews.com/amp/international/article/wuhan-lab-received-shipment-of-deadliest-viruses-from-canada-months-before-covid-19-outbreak-report/607345)
Wuhan lab received ‘shipment of deadliest viruses’ from Canada months before Covid-19 outbreak: Report

London: The Wuhan Institute of Virology received a shipment of deadly viruses from Canada's Microbiology Lab months before the outbreak of Covid-19, newly-released documents confirm.
...
the lethal delivery was sent from the National Microbiology Lab in Winnipeg, Canada, to the Wuhan Institute of Virology in early 2019.
...
Dr Xiangguo Qiu was removed from Canada's only level-4 lab over what is described as a possible "policy breach". Dr Qiu dispatched Ebola and Henipah viruses to the lab.
...
"In response to a request from the Wuhan Institute of Virology for viral samples of Ebola and Henipah viruses, the Public Health Agency of Canada (PHAC) sent samples for the purpose of scientific research in 2019."

Experts are not convinced, though.

Amir Attaran, a law professor and epidemiologist at the University of Ottawa, told CBC News: "It is suspicious. It is alarming. It is potentially life-threatening."

"What we know is that before she was removed, she sent one of the deadliest viruses on Earth, and multiple varieties of it to maximise the genetic diversity and maximise what experimenters in China could do with it, to a laboratory in China that does dangerous gain of function experiments.

"And that has links to the Chinese military."

In a gain of function experiment, a natural pathogen is made to mutate so humans can see if it has become more deadly or infectious.

Professor Attaran added: "The Wuhan lab does them and we have now supplied them with Ebola and Nipah viruses. It does not take a genius to understand that this is an unwise decision."

"I am extremely unhappy to see that the Canadian government shared that genetic material."
...
The revelations come amid soaring tensions between China and the West and, given the fact that the pandemic is said to have originated in Wuhan, news of the "policy breach" is a cause of concern.

US President Donald Trump has repeatedly blamed Beijing for its campaign of "disinformation" relating to the coronavirus.

Tory MP Tobias Ellwood, in an exclusive interview with Express.co.uk, observed: "COVID-19, if it's done anything, it has woken up the world to this rather aggressive and concerning objective of China wanting to quietly advance its own influence across the world."
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: surfivor on June 16, 2020, 08:38:48 AM
Remember how China and their supporters claimed the Wuhan lab didn't have Ebola?  They lied and broke numerous national and international laws to acquire it.  The US media called it a conspiracy theory.  Well, now we know it is a conspiracy fact.

https://www.timesnownews.com/amp/international/article/wuhan-lab-received-shipment-of-deadliest-viruses-from-canada-months-before-covid-19-outbreak-report/607345 (https://www.timesnownews.com/amp/international/article/wuhan-lab-received-shipment-of-deadliest-viruses-from-canada-months-before-covid-19-outbreak-report/607345)
Wuhan lab received ‘shipment of deadliest viruses’ from Canada months before Covid-19 outbreak: Report

London: The Wuhan Institute of Virology received a shipment of deadly viruses from Canada's Microbiology Lab months before the outbreak of Covid-19, newly-released documents confirm.
...
the lethal delivery was sent from the National Microbiology Lab in Winnipeg, Canada, to the Wuhan Institute of Virology in early 2019.
...
Dr Xiangguo Qiu was removed from Canada's only level-4 lab over what is described as a possible "policy breach". Dr Qiu dispatched Ebola and Henipah viruses to the lab.
...
"In response to a request from the Wuhan Institute of Virology for viral samples of Ebola and Henipah viruses, the Public Health Agency of Canada (PHAC) sent samples for the purpose of scientific research in 2019."

Experts are not convinced, though.

Amir Attaran, a law professor and epidemiologist at the University of Ottawa, told CBC News: "It is suspicious. It is alarming. It is potentially life-threatening."

"What we know is that before she was removed, she sent one of the deadliest viruses on Earth, and multiple varieties of it to maximise the genetic diversity and maximise what experimenters in China could do with it, to a laboratory in China that does dangerous gain of function experiments.

"And that has links to the Chinese military."

In a gain of function experiment, a natural pathogen is made to mutate so humans can see if it has become more deadly or infectious.

Professor Attaran added: "The Wuhan lab does them and we have now supplied them with Ebola and Nipah viruses. It does not take a genius to understand that this is an unwise decision."

"I am extremely unhappy to see that the Canadian government shared that genetic material."
...
The revelations come amid soaring tensions between China and the West and, given the fact that the pandemic is said to have originated in Wuhan, news of the "policy breach" is a cause of concern.

US President Donald Trump has repeatedly blamed Beijing for its campaign of "disinformation" relating to the coronavirus.

Tory MP Tobias Ellwood, in an exclusive interview with Express.co.uk, observed: "COVID-19, if it's done anything, it has woken up the world to this rather aggressive and concerning objective of China wanting to quietly advance its own influence across the world."


 Is that illegal ? It's very unacceptable that labs have these dangerous viruses and we can't know the truth about it
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on June 16, 2020, 09:01:42 AM
Is that illegal ? It's very unacceptable that labs have these dangerous viruses and we can't know the truth about it

Yes.  Acquiring these is a direct violation of the Biological Weapons Convention.  That is why China didnt have them.  Even Russia refused to provide them to China.  But in this case, China used one of its agents to get a top level position within the Canadian lab.  Then when policy violations were discovered (most likely theft of biotechnology) they were placed under investigation but allowed continued access.  During this time they arranged to have some of the most dangerous pathogens known to man shipped to the Wuhan lab just as they were starting gain of function work.  It is now clear to everyone that China haw been using the lab for bioweapon development in violation of treaty.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: surfivor on June 16, 2020, 12:42:21 PM
Yes.  Acquiring these is a direct violation of the Biological Weapons Convention.  That is why China didnt have them.  Even Russia refused to provide them to China.  But in this case, China used one of its agents to get a top level position within the Canadian lab.  Then when policy violations were discovered (most likely theft of biotechnology) they were placed under investigation but allowed continued access.  During this time they arranged to have some of the most dangerous pathogens known to man shipped to the Wuhan lab just as they were starting gain of function work.  It is now clear to everyone that China haw been using the lab for bioweapon development in violation of treaty.

 I find that outrageous and highly unacceptable
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on June 19, 2020, 03:34:29 PM
Preliminary analysis of Itallian water system supports lab leak timeline and bolsters claims of coverup by China.  Other studies in Spain and France are also consistent on this timing.

https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2020-06-19/italy-had-coronavirus-in-sewage-as-early-as-december-study-says (https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2020-06-19/italy-had-coronavirus-in-sewage-as-early-as-december-study-says)
Italy Had Coronavirus in Sewage as Early as December, Study Says

The coronavirus was present in Milan and Turin’s sewage systems as early as December, two months before the first Covid-19 cases were detected in Italy, a new study shows.

“Traces of SARS-Cov-2 have been found in samples of waste water taken in Milan and Turin on Dec. 18 and in Bologna on Jan. 29,” said Giuseppina La Rosa, who led the research for a coming study from the country’s ISS National Health Institute. “More traces were detected in other test samples through January and February.”
...
The new ISS study “may contribute to shedding light on the first phase of the virus’s circulation in Italy,” La Rosa said. The results are consistent with similar tests carried out on waste water in Barcelona and with clinical tests on patients hospitalized in France, which showed biological traces of the virus as early as last December.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: Mr. Bill on June 19, 2020, 09:30:53 PM
It does suggest that China was either covering up the outbreak or was incredibly negligent in its disease data collection.  But I don't think this supports any particular timeline, because a natural-source virus could follow the same schedule.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on June 19, 2020, 09:45:47 PM
It does suggest that China was either covering up the outbreak or was incredibly negligent in its disease data collection.  But I don't think this supports any particular timeline, because a natural-source virus could follow the same schedule.

It does support it because we have clear times of when it occured from satellite data, conference proceedings, social media accounts, cell phone records, hospital accounts, etc.  This data falls directly in line.  It is completely out of line with what China' has been claiming..
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on June 24, 2020, 08:09:18 PM
https://gulfnews.com/world/asia/australia-under-malicious-cyberattack-from-state-actor-1.1592530328449 (https://gulfnews.com/world/asia/australia-under-malicious-cyberattack-from-state-actor-1.1592530328449)
Australia under 'malicious' cyberattack from state actor
PM says broad attack targeting government, public services and businesses


“This activity is targeting Australian organizations across a range of sectors, including all levels of government, industry, political organizations, education, health, essential service providers and operators of other critical infrastructure,” he said.
...
Australia enraged China by calling for an investigation into the origins of the coronavirus pandemic and accusing China of fuelling a virus “infodemic” and engaging in economic “coercion”.

China — increasingly unwilling to tolerate criticism of its more aggressive foreign policies — has warned its students and tourists against going to Australia, threatened more sanctions and sentenced an Australian citizen to death for drug trafficking.

Morrison said that he had notified the leader of the opposition and state leaders of the cyberattacks, which he described as “malicious”.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: fred.greek on June 29, 2020, 01:22:59 PM
MODERATORS:  It's been a long time since I started a new post, so please correct whatever mistake I made...

COVID-19 virus detected in a Barcelona sewage sample from back in March 2019.

Link to the study as pre-published in a medical journal.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.06.13.20129627v1.full.pdf

"...  All samples came out to be negative for the presence of SARS-CoV-2 genomes with the exception of March 12, 2019, in which both IP2 and IP4 target assays were positive.

This striking finding indicates circulation of the virus in Barcelona long before the report of any COVID-19 case worldwide. Barcelona is a business and commerce hub, as well as a popular venue for massive events, gathering visitors from many parts of the world. It is nevertheless likely that similar situations may have occurred in several other parts of the world, with circulation of unnoticed COVID-19 cases in the community..."
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: LvsChant on June 29, 2020, 01:50:53 PM
wow! Thanks for sharing that, Fred. It is very interesting... and hard to understand how that could be... more food for thought for sure.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on June 29, 2020, 02:53:21 PM
wow! Thanks for sharing that, Fred. It is very interesting... and hard to understand how that could be... more food for thought for sure.

Most likely a false positive given that all the surrounding samples were clean:

This possibility prompted us to analyze some archival WWTP samples from January 2018 to December 2019 (Figure 2). All samples came out to be negative for the presence of SARS-CoV-2 genomes with the exception of March 12, 2019, in which both IP2 and IP4 target assays were positive.

Also, that one "hit" is not aligned with similar studies from other European cities but the later times are. 

Net, it is worthy of a closer look but definitely needs confirmation.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on July 01, 2020, 06:20:51 AM
The thefts continue and the Dems are ok with that

https://freebeacon.com/coronavirus/house-dems-reject-resolution-condemning-china-for-coronavirus-cyberattacks/ (https://freebeacon.com/coronavirus/house-dems-reject-resolution-condemning-china-for-coronavirus-cyberattacks/)
House Dems Reject Resolution Condemning China for Coronavirus Cyberattacks

No House Democrats voted in favor of Kinzinger's resolution.

National security agencies have been monitoring the issue. The FBI and Department of Homeland Security issued a public service announcement in May to warn U.S. medical research organizations of "likely targeting and network compromise by the People's Republican of China (PRC)." The announcement accused China of seeking "valuable intellectual property and public health data through illicit means related to vaccines, treatments and testing."
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: surfivor on July 01, 2020, 02:05:37 PM
Most likely a false positive given that all the surrounding samples were clean:

This possibility prompted us to analyze some archival WWTP samples from January 2018 to December 2019 (Figure 2). All samples came out to be negative for the presence of SARS-CoV-2 genomes with the exception of March 12, 2019, in which both IP2 and IP4 target assays were positive.

Also, that one "hit" is not aligned with similar studies from other European cities but the later times are. 

Net, it is worthy of a closer look but definitely needs confirmation.

With all the problems and reports of shady things, I don't see how you can trust that the test kits are reliable at all. For all I know, some percentage of them may be pre configured to generate bad results. As far as I am concerned, the test kits are some black box that I have no reason to trust what they do and no one has tried to prove that they are trustworthy and not rigged or that they are reliable.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on July 02, 2020, 03:32:28 PM
Journalist who broke story in Western media of virus has been vanished day before WHO "investigators" arrived in China.  She first reported on the lab shut down, patients overwhelming hospital, panic among medical staff (many who died), and the crematoriums running 24/7.  If not for her, the West would have been caught completely flat-footed.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/journalist-who-reported-wuhan-story-is-arrested-r8lnvt8lk (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/journalist-who-reported-wuhan-story-is-arrested-r8lnvt8lk)
Journalist who reported Wuhan coronavirus story is arrested
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on July 04, 2020, 09:39:41 PM
Previous bat strain published by Shi Zhengli of Wuhan lab is easily transformed into SARS COV-2 using gain of function techniques they were proven to be using.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-wuhan-institute-virology-bats-research-sars-a9601951.html (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-wuhan-institute-virology-bats-research-sars-a9601951.html)
Questions raised over whether virus sample in Wuhan lab could cause Covid-19

Scientists have raised fresh questions over whether a coronavirus sample held for years in a Wuhan laboratory could have mutated naturally or via genetic experimentation to become the virus which causes Covid-19.
...
In addition to giving a full genetic description of the virus, Dr Shi’s paper – published in Nature – revealed that the WIV housed a sample of virus collected from bats named RaTG13, which it said was a 96.2 per cent match with the Covid-19 virus – the closest yet discovered.
...
However, past research work carried out at VIW to improve the ability of pathogens to cause disease, known as “gain-of-function” research, has been documented in papers published between 2015 and 2017, described in one paper co-authored by Dr Shi as “virus infectivity experiments”.
....
The type of techniques required to turn RaTG13 into Sars-Cov-2 are “identical” to work previously carried out in Wuhan, alleges Professor Richard Ebright of Rutgers University’s Waksman Institute of Microbiology in New Jersey.

The very same techniques, the very same experimental strategies using RaTG13 as the starting point, would yield a virus essentially identical to Sars-Cov-2,” he told The Sunday Times.
Title: Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
Post by: iam4liberty on July 06, 2020, 01:59:59 PM
There is very little doubt now.  We have direct documentary evidence of an origin virus which, through gain of function experiments, creates a perfect match for the covid-19 virus.  The chance of it also evolving naturally in the same exact way is vanishingly small and would require decades of natural evolution.

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/covid-like-virus-from-bat-infested-mine-sent-to-wuhan-lab-in-2013-says-report-2257717 (https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/covid-like-virus-from-bat-infested-mine-sent-to-wuhan-lab-in-2013-says-report-2257717)
Covid-Like Virus From Bat-Infested Mine Sent To Wuhan Lab In 2013: Report

Virus samples sent to the Wuhan Institute of Virology seven years ago closely resemble Covid-19, according to a report in the Sunday Times that highlights unanswered questions about the origins of the global pandemic.

Scientists in 2013 sent frozen samples to the Wuhan lab from a bat-infested former copper mine in southwest China after six men who had been clearing out bat feces there contracted a severe pneumonia, the newspaper said.

Three of them died and the most likely cause was a coronavirus transmitted from a bat, the Sunday Times reported, citing a medic whose supervisor worked in the emergency department that treated the men. The same mine in Yunnan province was subsequently studied by Shi Zhengli, an expert in SARS-like coronaviruses of bat origins at the Wuhan Institute of Virology.

Shi, nicknamed "bat woman" for her expeditions in bat caves, described Covid-19 in a February 2020 paper, saying it was 96.2% similar to a coronavirus sample named RaTG13 obtained in Yunnan in 2013. The Sunday Times said RaTG13 is "almost certainly" the virus that was found in the abandoned mine.