The Survival Podcast Forum

Finance and Economics => The Money Board => Economic News, the Global Economy and all Things Monetary => Topic started by: summer98 on March 10, 2012, 07:04:10 AM

Title: Greece
Post by: summer98 on March 10, 2012, 07:04:10 AM
At least according to Fitch and Moody's.

Moody's: "Moody's Investors Service says that it considers Greece to have defaulted per Moody's default definitions"
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/03/09/idUSWNA217120120309 (http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/03/09/idUSWNA217120120309)

Fitch: "Fitch Ratings has downgraded Greece's Long-term foreign and local currency Issuer Default Ratings to 'Restricted Default'"
http://www.fitchratings.com/web/en/dynamic/fitch-home.jsp (http://www.fitchratings.com/web/en/dynamic/fitch-home.jsp)
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Oil Lady on March 10, 2012, 07:08:16 AM
Who's next?  ::)

Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Robinelli on March 10, 2012, 07:18:29 AM
I saw this but I really don't understand what this means (beyond they can't pay their debts). Is there a Greek Default 101 anywhere?
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: FrugalFannie on March 10, 2012, 07:34:03 AM
Those who bought the Greek debt have now just lost large portions of their investment capital. The truly scary part is, in my mind, that this is just a testing ground. We will likely see other countries follow suit and eventually I would not be surprised to see the US do the same thing. We have seen what kind of chaos this has created in Greece during the lead up in this process and now we get to see the aftermath. Other governments in financial crisis (watch how many tims Obama's people use these words in the coming months) will be watching closely and taking steps to pre-emptively control the populace (more restrictive regulations and laws to limit personal privacy and freedoms).

We will see continued spending by our government to give the appearance that all is okay. (Obama has recently proposed another $10B in directed spending to 'private' industry)
More legislation to 'improve' the economy (requiring hiring of certain populations)
More legislation/court decisions stripping away our rights of freedom and privacy
then after the election, an 'announcement' that this 'crisis' is 'more serious than anyone realized'
'austerity measures', 'write down of public debt' and 'currency conversion' follows
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Oil Lady on March 10, 2012, 07:46:57 AM
This can cause a domino effect of other nations in Europe (and elsewhere) who likewise have shaky economies to also start defaulting on their own national debt.

And ... depending upon which economic theory you subscribe to ... all of this is possibly proof (or at least strong evidence) that the current global economic system that was conceived of over fifty years ago is one huge lie that was doomed from the start, and that the world economy has no other choice now than to suffer a major implosion of the sort that could make the Great Depression of the 1930's look like nothing more than a bounced check and one overdraft fee. 

And ...

... If you're into conspiracy theories ... it COULD be that this global economic crisis of each nation's sovereign currency imploding one at a time like so many dominoes is in fact a diabolical plan drawn up years ago by a small cadre of global elitists (take your pick of any one of several nefraious bad-guy organizations, be they real organizations or imaginary ones) to force the whole world into adopting a one-world currency. And a one-world currency is, by default, a one-world government. 

No matter how you slice it, this ain't gonna be fun and it will impact everyone to some degree.





 
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: cmxterra on March 10, 2012, 08:19:45 AM
But American Idol is on. Will it disrupt me being able to watch it? (sticks head back in the hole)
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: FrugalFannie on March 10, 2012, 09:32:41 AM
Watching news and reading on line that there are people (Obama for one) proposing to allow homeowners to have their home loans rewritten to 90% of TODAY'S values. So if you bought a house 5 years ago, owe $270,000 on it but it's now only worth $215,000 the lender will have to rewrite your mortgage for $193,500. That would mean the lender will lose about $76,000 since you will have barely made a dent in the principal of the loan. Sounds good? Well, let's see who really pays. The bank will then get to write off their loss and collect on the mortgage insurance (government insurance in a lot of cases - Fannie and Freddie loans, VA loans, etc) meaning the taxpayer pays for the loss. Then the lender gets a 'deduction' on their business loss. Then the homeowner will get a 1099, though right now you won't be taxed on it due to a law initially passed in 2007 (the law to not get taxed is good for this year but may no be extended).

If the government can force businesses to incur a financial loss there goes even more of our financial freedoms.

Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Pathfinder on March 10, 2012, 11:08:37 AM
Watching news and reading on line that there are people (Obama for one) proposing to allow homeowners to have their home loans rewritten to 90% of TODAY'S values. So if you bought a house 5 years ago, owe $270,000 on it but it's now only worth $215,000 the lender will have to rewrite your mortgage for $193,500. That would mean the lender will lose about $76,000 since you will have barely made a dent in the principal of the loan. Sounds good? Well, let's see who really pays. The bank will then get to write off their loss and collect on the mortgage insurance (government insurance in a lot of cases - Fannie and Freddie loans, VA loans, etc) meaning the taxpayer pays for the loss. Then the lender gets a 'deduction' on their business loss. Then the homeowner will get a 1099, though right now you won't be taxed on it due to a law initially passed in 2007 (the law to not get taxed is good for this year but may no be extended).

If the government can force businesses to incur a financial loss there goes even more of our financial freedoms.

You mean like the stock and bond holders of GM? Or AIG?

And as for who's next, a few countries come to mind - Portugal, pain, Ireland - and each "bailout" will be harder and harder to sell to the money people.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: ncjeeper on March 10, 2012, 12:43:42 PM
No matter how you slice it, this ain't gonna be fun and it will impact everyone to some degree.
Yep. Right about that.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on March 11, 2012, 12:24:14 AM
Those who bought the Greek debt have now just lost large portions of their investment capital. The truly scary part is, in my mind, that this is just a testing ground. We will likely see other countries follow suit and eventually I would not be surprised to see the US do the same thing. ..
I really do not know for the US but some European countries are already tempted to...
BUT Merkel has made sure that the price to pay for such a writedown will be blood sweat and tears of the citizen. Now even the major Eu media are openly stating that the Austerity package was more to make Greece of an example to avoid.
My mind cannot accept how people fall victims to cheap politics....

This can cause a domino effect of other nations in Europe (and elsewhere) who likewise have shaky economies to also start defaulting on their own national debt.

And ... depending upon which economic theory you subscribe to ... all of this is possibly proof (or at least strong evidence) that the current global economic system that was conceived of over fifty years ago is one huge lie that was doomed from the start, and that the world economy has no other choice now than to suffer a major implosion of the sort that could make the Great Depression of the 1930's look like nothing more than a bounced check and one overdraft fee. 

It is called financiliazation and market economy. And we have let it lose to govern our lives and dictate our future.
And it is this that scares me the most. What will become of this "capital" when there is no markets to rotate in with? their bag of tricks is twintling.
Will it be pushed towards commodities and Food in particular. Will we see Goldman Sachs owning the mega food companies which they will be controlling food production themselves?
THAT is scary....

Sunday morning after a bad night's sleep and a memorial service I will be attending soon. Greekman Out.....
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: markl32 on May 16, 2012, 10:30:00 AM


Anyone here talking about the run on the banks in Greece yesterday?  I found this from MSNBC but my level of trust and confidence in MSNBC is low.  I'd like to know if any of the TSP community has any more reliable info. 

http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/16/11729795-greeks-withdraw-894-million-in-a-day-is-this-beginning-of-a-run-on-banks?lite (http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/16/11729795-greeks-withdraw-894-million-in-a-day-is-this-beginning-of-a-run-on-banks?lite)
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Shaunypoo on May 16, 2012, 10:52:24 AM
And as for who's next, a few countries come to mind - Portugal, pain, Ireland - and each "bailout" will be harder and harder to sell to the money people.

My money is on California.  From 9.2 to over 16 billion in debt in only 5 months.  Must be some kind of record.  And they have a larger GDP than some European countries.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Shaunypoo on May 16, 2012, 10:56:17 AM

Anyone here talking about the run on the banks in Greece yesterday?  I found this from MSNBC but my level of trust and confidence in MSNBC is low.  I'd like to know if any of the TSP community has any more reliable info. 

http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/16/11729795-greeks-withdraw-894-million-in-a-day-is-this-beginning-of-a-run-on-banks?lite (http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/16/11729795-greeks-withdraw-894-million-in-a-day-is-this-beginning-of-a-run-on-banks?lite)

You mean you don't like the paragraph that states "Several banking sources told Reuters similar amounts had also been withdrawn on Tuesday. Nevertheless, there was no sign of panic or queues at bank branches in Athens on Wednesday. Bankers dismissed suggestions that a bank run was looming. A senior executive at a large Greek bank told Reuters: "There is no bank run, no queues or panic. The situation is better than I expected. The amount of deposit withdrawals the president mentioned referred to three days, not one." "

Nothing to see here, folks.  Move along.  These aren't the droids your looking for.

I, for one, have been and will continue to be watching this closely.  It may or may not be what eventually happens here, but it is a portent of major global changes occuring.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: res1cue on May 16, 2012, 10:59:40 AM

Anyone here talking about the run on the banks in Greece yesterday?  I found this from MSNBC but my level of trust and confidence in MSNBC is low.  I'd like to know if any of the TSP community has any more reliable info. 

http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/16/11729795-greeks-withdraw-894-million-in-a-day-is-this-beginning-of-a-run-on-banks?lite (http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/16/11729795-greeks-withdraw-894-million-in-a-day-is-this-beginning-of-a-run-on-banks?lite)

That is a very interesting article. I think although this is clearly not a run on the banks yet, it was interesting how it mentioned a third of the GDP has been withdrawn in the past 2 years.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: markl32 on May 16, 2012, 11:07:57 AM
You mean you don't like the paragraph that states "Several banking sources told Reuters similar amounts had also been withdrawn on Tuesday. Nevertheless, there was no sign of panic or queues at bank branches in Athens on Wednesday. Bankers dismissed suggestions that a bank run was looming. A senior executive at a large Greek bank told Reuters: "There is no bank run, no queues or panic. The situation is better than I expected. The amount of deposit withdrawals the president mentioned referred to three days, not one." "

Nothing to see here, folks.  Move along.  These aren't the droids your looking for.



Correct.  In my observations as a consumer of news and from my direct involvement with the media I have come to learn that what ever is printed is just about guaranteed NOT what happened or is whats happening.  Just fishing here and hoping that maybe some Grecian locals are also TSP followers. 

I love to leverage the power of the internet to get other points of view that are not reported through traditional media channels. 

I also believe that Greece is the canary in the coal mine on the european economy.   

Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Cedar on May 16, 2012, 11:23:37 AM
The bank runs were $858M in about 5 hours time Monday in Greece.  And VERY LITTLE is being said about it on American news today. Months go they blamed the DOW dropping on Greece sneezing.. and after the Greek bnk runs, there a drop this morning, but not it is +20.66.

Cedar
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: endurance on May 16, 2012, 11:38:23 AM
I think it's important to look at the scale of the 'bank run'.  I haven't seen anything that establishes what a normal turnover is in the Greek banking system and this is less than a billion dollars in a country that has a GDP around $340 billion.  It might just be normal or a little bit more active than normal or it could be earth shattering.  Without a reference point, it's tough to tell what it really is.

The media likes big numbers, but they seldom do the responsible thing and give a reference point to put it into perspective.

If I said the DOW fell 60 points most folks would shrug, but if it was 1981 and the DOW was at 850, it would probably rattle your cage pretty good.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: endurance on May 16, 2012, 03:36:54 PM
Here's a bit more perspective on the 'bank run'
http://news.yahoo.com/run-greek-banks-looks-180100901.html (http://news.yahoo.com/run-greek-banks-looks-180100901.html)
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Pathfinder on May 16, 2012, 05:42:37 PM
The bank runs were $858M in about 5 hours time Monday in Greece.  And VERY LITTLE is being said about it on American news today. Months go they blamed the DOW dropping on Greece sneezing.. and after the Greek bnk runs, there a drop this morning, but not it is +20.66.

Cedar

One of the articles I read said that the finance minister said that the amount was currently (at the meeting) between 700 and 800 million euros (almost $900 million) but that it would end up around a billion euros.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Pathfinder on May 16, 2012, 05:48:22 PM
I think it's important to look at the scale of the 'bank run'.  I haven't seen anything that establishes what a normal turnover is in the Greek banking system and this is less than a billion dollars in a country that has a GDP around $340 billion.  It might just be normal or a little bit more active than normal or it could be earth shattering.  Without a reference point, it's tough to tell what it really is.

The media likes big numbers, but they seldom do the responsible thing and give a reference point to put it into perspective.

If I said the DOW fell 60 points most folks would shrug, but if it was 1981 and the DOW was at 850, it would probably rattle your cage pretty good.

Check the part that said that one third of the deposits had been withdrawn in the past 2 years. That is a whole lotta money not available for loans and whatnot for house, business creating jobs, etc. And regardless of a reference point, people removing 1/3 of the working capital from the process is a lot.

Add to that the fact that banks worldwide but especially in the EU are stashing cash away against the default, and a whole lot of people are going to lose credit, again, putting the damper on the economy even further.

I think the reference point is a good comment, but seriously, it's a little bit like asking how big the iceberg was that the Titanic hit. We may be beyond that at the moment - a moment everyone has been waiting for while hoping against hope that Greece would not default. Greece is the first card, we'll see just how much the EU wants to save the rest of the house of cards.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: atleif on October 01, 2012, 01:28:27 PM
so...i gotta a question. the money from these "austerity measures" being forced on the nations gov'ts to impose...who actually benefits from that? where does the money end up? with central bankers?
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: MTUCache on October 01, 2012, 02:29:09 PM
so...i gotta a question. the money from these "austerity measures" being forced on the nations gov'ts to impose...who actually benefits from that? where does the money end up? with central bankers?
I don't think there is any money being "created" by these... As I understand it, these austerity measures are self-imposed on their citizens based upon recommendations by the ECB. They're not generating "extra" revenue to pay back the bail-out (at least, not at this point), but they're proving to the rest of the Euro-zone that they're committed to being more responsible with their budget and trying to get as close to "balanced" as possible so they don't need another bail-out later.

Essentially, they're forcing these governments to govern with far less credit than before. They need to show proof that they're able to pay for the services that they're providing to their citizens.

Which is what really gets me about all these riots and protests.... is really genuine to be upset about something being taken away from you that you knew the government couldn't afford to give to you? Not that it wouldn't happen here, I mean, it's going to get crazy in the next couple of decades when all of these retirees get the complete picture of how their pension fund looks. But it does seem kind of whiny to get upset about someone not keeping their promise to you when you were completely aware that they were never going to be able to do it in the first place.

That being said, I don't think I'd ever be in a place where I'd be complacent about the government hiking my tax rate by double-digit figures in a year and cutting what little they do provide to the bone.  ::)
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: solarguy on October 01, 2012, 02:40:31 PM
Yeah, the "austerity measures" mean they have to spend ~no more than they take in, ie balanced budget.  Sounds simple.

The real austerity is the fact that the government owes a LOT of money to the big bank organizations.  And the big bank people have to get paid since they "saved" greece.  So, with a ~balanced budget, with a new big line item to pay the government debt back, there is suddenly not enough money to pay full pensions and all the other full government benefits that people were "entitled" to.

Of course, some really are entitled, and some are not.

The credit cards bill are rolling in pretty fast now.

HTH,

troy
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: atleif on October 01, 2012, 02:51:56 PM
the spending cuts wouldn't bother me as much as the drastic tax hikes (i'm sure their taxes are to high to begin with like ours are) i think someone on the forum mentioned an austerity tax equal to a laymans weekly wage being added onto your utilities in greece.  Such a huge added tax would make it that  for lower to middle class even working full time you wouldnt be able (or would struggle) just to make ends meet.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: jpbearit on October 01, 2012, 08:49:38 PM
Ask yourself this, how well is a tax hike of any size going to work in a country where tax avoidance is almost total and tax fraud is rarely punished if you know who to… well just to be frank… bribe.

"Look… people is people. If people no want to pay tax, they find a way to no pay tax." - Mr. Ravanos (owner of my favorite local Greek joint and philosopher of Aristotelian caliber.)

I don’t care if we talk about  Greece, brazil, USA, England, India or Zimbabwe. You can’t expect people to not find ways of getting out of taxes that will only break them.  Our self-preservation instinct is too strong to sacrifice ourselves for honor-less politicians laws we did not vote for ourselves.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on October 03, 2012, 01:19:13 AM
Sorry to say it, but you all missed the point.

The Greek goverment has to prove that is a good minnion to the EU. I does that by taking measures that force the Greek economy into an internal devaluation.(in the hope of stimulating regrowth. thsi ahs failed, see the text at the end)

What is called austerity maasures is not.
Austerity means cutting back on expenses.
But all the measures that have been taken -and mostly what they are about to take- are a little of that.

Why should any goverment regulate minimum wages, even when the employer organizations deny that? (because they know that they might win 1 but they will loose 10 with the ensuing recession)
Why should a goverment lower the civil cervant wages when it is calculated that 94% of these money gets back into the state (by taxation, VAT and circulating money creating more tax and VAT)
It has already been calculated that the 11.5 bn Euro austerity measures that will be taken in the next weeks will further lower the GDP 1.2% and increase unemployment 1.7%? Huh? Could someone explain?

It has been decided to tax self-employed at 35% and there maybe be population wide tax of 1000 Euros whether you have any income or not. That is TWO wages of a blue colllar worker. (we have gone that far that there are honest families that are all unemployed and their dilema is paying the taxes or paying the electricity bills)
Tax evation is huge but not among all social strata. People on a pension or a wage cannot tax evade, their employer sents the data montly to the Greek IRS. And these are the majority of the IRS cliente.
It is businessmen and some categories of self-employed (lawyers & doctors amongst them) that are the tax champions. (you see you cannot tax an income that is not declared since you get paid under the table). For these the Greek goverment has announced NO measure to even TRY culling their tax evation. It just shifts the burden to the common people.

We (the common folk) lost 1-2 paychecks to new taxes last year and will loose at least one more with the new measures that will be braught upon us. Yes we have come that far. Measuring taxation not in percentages but in wages.
Want an example? i was unemployed all through 2011. yet i was taxed for a "pressumed income" of 6000 euros. 3000 for just being and 3000 for owning a car (an 2004 Hyundai Accent). (blue colar wage was 700 E in 2011)(the logic is this. If you can feed yourself to be alive you got to have a 3000E income. And another 3000 to support that car)
in effect one may eat at the kitchen soups but he will still loose his -paid for- house on outstanding taxes.. Last year even homeless had to pay tax!

Yet from 2008 till now -and counting a future trance of 23 bn- the state has financed (recapitalized is the "proper" word) the Greek banks will a total of 218 bn Euros. that is in excess of the 2012 GDP.

Of all these, please point me to ONE thing that would help any economy stand on its feet and create new money/product/GDP to pay off its depts.
Instead we are drawn deeper in the abyss.
look at the big picture. +3% in the GDP of 2009, -5% in the GDP of 2012 (estimated). 125% of the GDP in dept in 2009 (with the primeminister and the secretary of economics under investigation of cooking the books to make the dept look bigger - but this is another story) 161% dept after the PSI in 2012.
WTF? ( I totally deserve saying it ) Are we sweating and bleeding to make our economy worse? WTF!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_government-debt_crisis

http://www.economia.gr/index.php?dispatch=pages.view&page_id=2118
Quote
The learning process proved no easier for even the most hardened practitioners of the international system – all those who had to administer the bitter-but-sorely-needed medicine to the Greek economy. Here, too, we use a stereotypical way of looking at things. This goes both for the ‘official sector’, i.e. the IMF, the ECB/the NCBs, the Brussels crowd, the Berlin-to-Paris axis and for the multifaceted private sector, ranging from the most dress-code-conscious bankers or insurance executives to swashbuckling hedge-funds’ stars (who just had a less-than-star year on 2011) or even to the individual bondholder who thought it wise or – later on – thrilling to get some Greek bonds in his or her portfolio.

Soon it became quite a puzzle how to let the steam out of overheated economy but without bringing the real economy down. But what in the first months of stabilisation gave rise just to complaints on the part of the IMF/ECB/EU people that structural measures that were to bring about competitiveness to the Greek economy (and thus supplement the successive budgetary-and-income cuts and tax increases with growth) were undertaken with low enthusiasm, gradually turned to impatience, then concern, then disbelief.

The Greek economy did not go the way of “internal devaluation”: true enough, incomes were slashed (and disposable, i.e. after-tax incomes dropped dead) ; but prices proved stubbornly sticky and the competitiveness of the Greek economy as far as tradable goods are concerned did little to get better – if for no other reason, because the export basis of the economy had sunk so much that something akin to a miracle would be needed to float it back. But the real impasse was when the unavoidable dip in GDP from mid-2011 onwards got close to a freefall. At that point in time, it started to dawn on even the most self-centered international civil servants that something was seriously wrong with the medicine prescribed for Greece...
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: bigbear on October 03, 2012, 07:45:56 AM
It's pretty obvious that there are very pervasive social programs and assistance in many countries.  Especially in Europe and more increasing in the US.  Those "promises" were given for votes.  Those "promises" also "have" to be funded or there will be civil unrest.  Gov'ts (in this case Greece) decided to pacify the populace with additional debt financing.  Now the bill collector is coming to collect their interest payments and even recover some principal.  No new debt (to continue funding promises) will be issued unless changes happen (aka austerity measures).  The deal with the devil was made years ago. 

Think of it from a personal perspective.  You spend all of your income on stuff.  You're living great.  But your friend has more.  You want more.  You have a choice, lower standard of living or more debt.  Heck no, I'm competing with the Joneses (aka policitians pandering for votes).  You get a credit card or take out a HELOC and suddenly you can increase your living standard.  Things go well for a while, but you start to notice that you're barely able to make your payments as cable costs more, the smartphone data plan costs more, food starts costing more, gas starts costing more, health insurance at work starts costing more...  So you go the bank and they say "No.  We can only give you more credit if your cash flow changes (increase income, decrease expenses, or some combo)."  So your choices are: get a second job (increased taxes, spur economy somehow, or find someway to increase your cash/printing press/QE), lower your expenses/standard of living (cancel cable, carpool, no data plan...austerity measures).  Then you can qualify for an additional line of credit to fund some other standard of living.  You agree to the changes and take the extra loan.  (Ok, we all know banks don't work like that with individuals, but if you individually or we collectively can cause a financial problem to the bank then they would work like that.)

Austerity measures is nothing more than a PR spin to make spending controls sound outrageous.  Sometimes the spending cuts are outrageous, sometimes they're not.  But the label's the same if it's the "other side" that is placing the controls.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: jpbearit on October 03, 2012, 10:41:34 AM
So Greekman,

Due to these "austerity measures," I'm willing to bet that the underground economy, "the black market," has exploded there in your country.
 
Am I right?
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: NWPilgrim on October 03, 2012, 02:25:03 PM
Of all these, please point me to ONE thing that would help any economy stand on its feet and create new money/product/GDP to pay off its depts.
Instead we are drawn deeper in the abyss.

Well that is the global elite plan, right?  It is working, for them.  It is called "serfdom".

They extend credit to the country and individuals way beyond the ability to repay.  They knew this.  Then they get the politicians to agree to raise taxes and cut spending some, but not enough to actually pay off the debt.  The bankers profits are GUARANTEED by the govt backing (using taxpayer funds).

This way the masses of population are kept burdened to the maximum tolerable amount but kept alive enough to keep working away 8 hrs/ day, 10 hrs, 12 hrs, 14 hrs...

What the bankers fear is a general default and refusal by govt to collect the increasing taxes.  I think this is the only way out, but there is no pretty option at this point of indebtedness.  Even if we all default, the long term solution is to live within our means, but people are so addicted to the fun ways of deficit spending it will be painful for most to live within their national and personal means.

DEBT = SLAVERY

Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on October 03, 2012, 05:39:50 PM
So Greekman,

Due to these "austerity measures," I'm willing to bet that the underground economy, "the black market," has exploded there in your country.
 
Am I right?
Actualy not that much...
for 2 reasons.
1st there has already been an undergound economy. the incentive has not increase mainly because they ahve found ways to tax irrespective of the ones actuall income (declared or not). the "pressuemd" income i talked of above.
2nd so what...there is not much money left other than the bills and food. there is no interest in buying anything else
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on November 27, 2012, 03:00:06 AM
I happened on this documentary on the Greek situation....It is a bit old but you are still welcome to it if you have the time and wish.

http://bcove.me/hjo39qw1 (http://bcove.me/hjo39qw1)
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: osubuckeye4 on December 07, 2012, 01:16:08 PM
Who's next?  ::)

Ireland or Spain are the frontrunners.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: jpbearit on December 07, 2012, 10:58:03 PM
Who's next?  ::)

I think Japan is next.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: endurance on December 08, 2012, 09:07:53 AM
I think Japan is next.
Most of Japan's debt is held by Japanese citizens, unlike the Europeans.  It's the foundation of their retirement and pension programs.  Thus, they can delay a lot longer by working later in life, whereas once the writing goes up on the wall that your country may not be able to pay back its debt, nobody is willing to loan you money, thus interest rates go up, thus the ability to repay bondholders goes down and you have a vicious cycle.  That's what happened in Greece and is unfolding in Spain, Italy and Portugal today.  Since the Japanese are buying their own bonds, they can prop their own system up a lot longer.  Will it come apart eventually when folks retire enmasse, you bet, but they have a lot more control over the how and the when than Spain does.

Ireland is perceived as being a culture that is very willing to suffer, thus, they're still seen as a better risk, but no doubt about it, they're in for a lot of suffering and only time will tell if they eventually see the rebellion against austerity that Greece has demonstrated.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Cedar on February 17, 2015, 05:02:56 PM
Greece's current bailout expires on 28 February 2015. Any new agreement would need to be approved by national governments, so time is running out to reach a compromise. Without a deal Greece is likely to run out of money.
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-31485073

Greece defies creditors, seeking credit but no bailout
http://www.cnbc.com/id/102429071

Greece bailout talks break down after Athens rejects 'unacceptable' eurozone demands
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/16/greece-fails-rescue-package-eurozone-finance-ministers

Cedar
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on February 18, 2015, 12:42:27 AM
I was patiently waiting till someone found out...

There was an initiative by the Greek side half a day ago. And it is reasonable assuming a solution must be found.

problem is that Germany is hard fixed in its position and has the rest of the Europe by the balls.
The secret is out, it is using a Mercantilistic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercantilism) economic policy to further its 3rd try their Pan-European Lebensraum. 9that was as a dense statement as it can get)

So we are in an armwresting game with the possibility to turn into a barroom brawl

germany's position is so hard set that either is playing a hard negotiating game or is determined to push things to the end and create te conditions of ousting Greece from the Eurozone.
The media are supporting the idea that the EU is now hardened enough to bare the exiting crisis and its effects on the Euro, and not contaging the rest of the problematic economies of portugal, Spain and Italy.
Check this: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/02/13/italy-is-europes-ticking-time-bomb/
Practically Greece is being used (again) to bully the rest of the European south. the situation is particlularly critical since in Spain, the prime minister is sinking in a muck of scandals and the radical left party (connected to the similar one governign Greece now) is kickin ass and will sweep in September's elections.
So time is sparce, everything must happen by summer.

Where this going i can not tell.
The fact is that the real battle is between the Germanic recipe of extreme austerity to serve depts versus an expansive economy approach to create profit and surplusses.
And the major player in this game is known for making the wrong act when history calls.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Cedar on February 18, 2015, 01:31:51 AM
.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on February 19, 2015, 07:07:48 AM
this article by Bloomberg sums quite well the facts and the feelings in Greece

Europe and Greece Are at War Over Nothing
http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-02-19/what-are-europe-and-greece-even-fighting-over-

Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on February 20, 2015, 02:31:47 AM
an interesting article talking about the geostategic implications of the Greek situation

Keeping Greece in the euro is about far more than money
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f98c73b6-b761-11e4-981d-00144feab7de.html#axzz3SHAUoKHI

Quote
Events in Ukraine have shaken those in Europe who once took for granted that the postwar territorial settlement would be respected by all its neighbours. In what promises to be a protracted western confrontation with Russia, the geostrategic assets represented by Greece are irreplaceable.

Yet European leaders persist in discussing Greece’s financial position as if its geopolitical allegiances were immutably settled. Events may yet prove them right. But it is a risky bet. It would be a tragedy if a narrow-minded analysis of the situation led them to place that wager accidentally.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Cedar on March 18, 2015, 08:27:36 PM
Greece pushes creditors to the edge as it demands EU summit talks.  The Greek government has demanded bail-out talks at an EU summit later this week, frustrating its creditors in already strained debt negotiations. According to reports, Athens refused to update European finance ministers about its plans to implement vital reforms at a scheduled teleconference yesterday, requesting higher level political talks with eurozone leaders instead.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11479304/Greece-pushes-creditors-to-the-edge-as-it-demands-EU-summit-talks.html

Greece defies EC with anti-austerity law
www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-3195221

Cedar
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on March 19, 2015, 01:13:48 AM
yep! it is a huge battle against the German pushed Mercantilistic austerity. Cos all this dept thing boils down to this.
And not for greece only. Unless something changes, Europe will either fall into a recession or break up.
Key politicians (i..e Mario Draggi) have started realizing this, but not soon enough for Greece.

Food for thought:
https://www.youtube.com/user/INETeconomics/search?query=mercantilism
https://www.youtube.com/user/INETeconomics/search?query=+The+Future+of+Europe
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on March 22, 2015, 07:29:14 AM
cos nothing is like it seems on the surface and some people want you to believe

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/greek-study-provides-evidence-of-forced-loans-to-nazis-a-1024762.html
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Cedar on April 10, 2015, 08:58:26 AM
The Greek Prime Minister’s Meeting With Putin Sent a Message to the EU
https://news.vice.com/article/the-greek-prime-ministers-meeting-with-putin-sent-a-message-to-the-eu?utm_source=vicenewstwitter

Cedar
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: nkawtg on April 10, 2015, 09:29:10 AM
Cyprus is getting in on the Russian bandwagon as well.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2971278/Putin-s-Cyprus-deal-gives-Russia-foothold-EU-British-MPs-blast-island-s-decision-let-Moscow-s-navy-use-ports.html
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: nkawtg on June 05, 2015, 09:39:02 AM
Athens looks to Moscow
Greek PM and Vladimir Putin chatted on the phone "in a friendly atmosphere"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11653211/Greece-IMF-payment-live.html
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Cedar on June 10, 2015, 09:55:20 PM
- Standard & Poor's downgrades Greece's credit rating 1 notch further into junk territory
- Greece considering accepting a bailout extension to March 2016, government source says
- Greek PM Tsipras will meet the president of the European Council Donald Tusk at 1:30 pm Brussels time on Wednesday
- White House says President Obama and Chancellor Merkel discussed Greece in bilateral meeting, agreed Greece must achieve reforms and return to sustainable long-term growth

Cedar
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Chemsoldier on June 11, 2015, 04:36:49 AM
- Standard & Poor's downgrades Greece's credit rating 1 notch further into junk territory
For those who track such things, that is a CCC rating fpr Greece. (The US is "AA+"  ::) )
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Carl on June 11, 2015, 06:09:51 AM
If the world is collectively in debt,Who do we owe?
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on June 11, 2015, 06:52:04 AM
The Cloud  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

(really, by the Cloud I mean those trillion in funds flaoting around bank accounts) (they say that available fund capital is thrice the world;s GDP)
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: hackmeister on June 15, 2015, 07:45:34 AM
The possible scenarios:
http://news.yahoo.com/greeces-debt-drama-possible-scenarios-205841798.html

Some are predicting that Greece will join the BRIC nations.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: endurance on June 15, 2015, 08:42:17 AM
I have to say, the PM of Greece isn't taking any crap from the banks or EU. I'm not saying he's entirely dealing with reality since none of those pensions are going to get paid if the nation gets kicked out of the EU, but the bankers played a dangerous game to get them in this mess in the first place, so I feel none too sorry for them.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33131715 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33131715)
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Cedar on June 15, 2015, 08:43:20 AM
Global financial markets suffered their first bout of significant contagion from the Greek crisis this year on Monday after 11th hour talks between the near bankrupt country and its creditors collapsed.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/06/15/us-markets-global-idUSKBN0OU15F20150615

Cedar
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on June 15, 2015, 08:45:01 AM
edit: this i was typing the following before the last 2 posts of you.


I have stoped worrying since some time ago becuase:
1. i have already done and prepared what I could with the limited resources i have.
2. I need to preserve my sanity first and mostly.

There are Sooo many scenarios, leaked info, directed news and leakages, and so many players playing such dirty games under the table, that to follow and access them all would drive anyone insane.
(this is why i refrain from keeping you updated, but if you want a hint the scenario of Greece leaving the Eurozone is played the even  days of the month)

But, falsely or not, I am optimistic that above all the perturbations of the poliical lakey's in the EU, lies geostrategics
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Cedar on June 15, 2015, 08:50:27 AM
1. i have already done and prepared what I could with the limited resources i have.
2. I need to preserve my sanity first and mostly.

And that is probably the best scenario... good on you.

Cedar
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: endurance on June 15, 2015, 09:00:55 AM
Keep us in the loop as your sanity allows, greekman. Best wishes to you and yours for coming through this as comfortably as possible.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Bonnieblue2A on June 15, 2015, 11:55:31 AM
Keep us in the loop as your sanity allows, greekman. Best wishes to you and yours for coming through this as comfortably as possible.

+1

We may all need to learn the lessons you do from this because it could happen here as well.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on June 15, 2015, 12:57:58 PM
anyone cares or a 4/5ths finished article on leasons learned (was about to be posted in a friendly American blog but i lost track of the manager)
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on June 17, 2015, 09:27:33 AM
Yesterday i stumbled on this analysis....
http://www.defence-point.gr/news/?p=130825

it is by a man to follow his writings and views. I hope Google translation does a semi-good job for you.

in short.
The IMF and the ERu have made unbearable and unrealistic demands. And they have been hardening their position even moreas time passes by.
The core of the analysis is that they are not confortable with the idea of a leftist goverment.
the initial plan was to drag the ruling party into a center-right position.
Now it seems their game is to force Greece to an electiona nd a (possible) change of goverment.

Do yoy know the feeling of the most people that have been really struck by the crisis?
"Apothaneto i psihi mou meta ton allofilon"
It is what Samson said when he drove down the temple
http://biblehub.com/judges/16-30.htm

Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Cedar on June 18, 2015, 09:43:50 AM
A crucial month for Greece: Timeline
http://dwc.cnbc.com/5Tr3h/index.html

Cedar
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on June 18, 2015, 10:59:43 AM
my timeline....

Jul 1st and no deal ....Hit the markets to buy things that would dissappear upon extit of the Eurozone. this will be my "5minutes to 12" shopping list.

Deal before June 30.... Hit the markets to buy groceries that will see a hike to 23% VAT (a definitive clause of the deal)

yep! things have boiled down to basic shopping
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Cedar on June 18, 2015, 11:38:30 AM
OMGosh Greekman... Is there fresh fruits and vegetables you can even dehydrate on top of a car or tin roofing with two sheets to store in jars?

Cedar



Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on June 18, 2015, 01:19:07 PM
well there are many options for others.
But i live in an apartment.. NO way to use any sustainment/homesteading practices, cannot even can. (but freezer is getting full with a prep i consider vital for preserved/packaged food eaters, the red thick peppers) (see my salsa recipe elsewhere)

But you know with my limited money resources i have gradually acivedmy goal.
Buy now what will become unavailable in the future (imported stuff)
I am 100% in hobby stuff, hygiene and med needs. Car expenses are taken care for the next year and getting for the next one too i all goes well. And now I am expanding on my medium term food (packaged) stores.
In such a situation one must find the balance between spending Euros to stores and preserving what may become HARD and black market currency.

this is why I have differentiated stores spending between  the two scenarios
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: nkawtg on June 19, 2015, 06:21:24 PM
Greekman,
So what's the local opinion about the bank "Crisis" being reported here?
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Wild Colonial Boy on June 20, 2015, 09:09:20 AM
Greece may at some point wish to draw some inspiration and lessons from Iceland when its economy collapsed in 2008 in the opening days of the GFC. Operating outside the control of the Euro and ECB may be a viable solution (even if only on an interim basis).

Some good podcasts from the BBC and ABC (Australia) are linked below...

ABC: The Fall and Rise of Iceland
http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/breakfast/the-fall-and-rise-of-iceland/4460526

BBC: Iceland, Lessons for Greece
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02t8tls
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Cedar on June 21, 2015, 05:54:08 AM
German Chancellor Angela Merkel has warned there must be a deal between Greece and its creditors ahead of Monday's emergency EU summit. On Friday, the European Central Bank (ECB) approved more emergency help for the banks. The amount of extra funding has not been officially disclosed. Meanwhile, Russia says that it will consider granting a loan to Greece if it is asked. If Greece fails to make the repayment due to the International Monetary Fund, it risks having to leave the eurozone and possibly also the EU.
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-33209199

Cedar
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on June 27, 2015, 12:59:37 PM
I guess you must have heard about the referndum the Greek PM has declared.
With the Greek-EU-IMF talks getting nowhere, the PM asked the Greek people to vote -next Sunday- on whether they wish to accept the Eu ultimatum for more bleeding taxation.
Politically such a move is multi-dimensional and risky.

IUn the local news all hell is breaking loose. the are ven scenarios that want the Grek president -a former senator for the opposition- to resigning his post, thus forcing elections as a way to hinder the referndum.... :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o,
yeh, right! Media propaganada at its best!

At the moment the general feeling is F U cos peope are venting steam. And I do not think they will change position within the next 6 days.

I will have to go now, cos I am frantically wriiting a new article for my blog. I will keep you posted as soon as I can!

Title: Re: Greece
Post by: TheRetiredRancher on June 27, 2015, 01:10:57 PM
Alexis Tsipras, prime Minister has referred the last offer by the The IMF and ECB to p public referendum to allow the Greek people to vote on whether to accept the offer or not. He advises people to vote against the proposal. But says he will abide by the will of the people. This effectively ends all hope of very temporary extensions and will give him very strong footing to either accept a bad deal from the creditors ( he saves face by only going against his principles because it is the will of the people) or he has the backing of the populace to leave the EU if necessary and default on their loans. This is a very sharp political move and it is very hard to say which way it will go.

Immediately after this announcement Friday night crowds are forming around ATMs as a run to get cash begins.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: TheRetiredRancher on June 27, 2015, 01:21:19 PM
Thank you greekman. Keep us posted as you can. I understand the ATMs are getting hit hard today.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on June 27, 2015, 03:58:36 PM
yep..cleaned out...I had not time to check a "secret" one -somewhere in the hospital garden- but that must have fallen prey to the workers there.

BTW people also hit the Supermarkets and whatever...A buddy of mine, saw families leaving bakeries with 10-15 loafs of bread!
things are far quiter in the village I work, locals consider uping pigeon farming and fish tanks stock.

http://politika-gr.blogspot.gr/2015/06/blog-post_139.html
Heineken must be sponsoring buying frenzies the world over... ;)
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: nkawtg on June 27, 2015, 04:58:15 PM
Greeks Line Up at Banks and Drain ATMs

While not really a run (only 500 of 7,000 ATM's ran dry), it shows Greeks are nervous about an upcoming referendum.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-06-27/greeks-line-up-at-banks-and-drain-atms-after-tsipras-calls-vote
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on June 27, 2015, 11:14:31 PM
this is a concise and onto the point analysis of the game that is being played the past 2 days.
Sorry, but you will have to suffer Google translation
http://www.defence-point.gr/news/?p=131747
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: FreeLancer on June 28, 2015, 01:25:44 AM
NPR was reporting that Greek legislators were lining up to drain the ATMs in the parliament building, like rats from a sinking ship.

My wife and I booked travel to Greece for a wedding this September.  Not the best timing.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Chemsoldier on June 28, 2015, 08:38:21 AM
NPR was reporting that Greek legislators were lining up to drain the ATMs in the parliament building, like rats from a sinking ship.

My wife and I booked travel to Greece for a wedding this September.  Not the best timing.
As long as you dont get mugged your money should go a long way.

Seriously, Lviv Ukraine is gorgeous and super cheap also. Crisis presents opportunities to those willing to deal with the risks.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: FreeLancer on June 28, 2015, 01:26:05 PM
As long as you dont get mugged your money should go a long way.

Seriously, Lviv Ukraine is gorgeous and super cheap also. Crisis presents opportunities to those willing to deal with the risks.

Depends how much civil unrest there is, I suppose.  Some of my earliest memories are of running with my parents and sister through the streets of Athens, away from the sound of machine guns, in 1974.  I very distinctly remember bayonets and rumbling tanks.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Cedar on June 28, 2015, 01:30:05 PM
Depends how much civil unrest there is, I suppose.  Some of my earliest memories are of running with my parents and sister through the streets of Athens, away from the sound of machine guns in 1974.  I very distinctly remember bayonets and rumbling tanks.

One of my former 4-H kids was born around that time in Greece. Her mother had to drug her and smuggle her out of Greece in a carry on bag on an airplane to get her out of the chaos there. She was a US citizen, her father was in the military there (?) and Greece would not let the baby out of the country since it was born there. They came home to Oregon.

Cedar
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: nkawtg on June 28, 2015, 02:35:05 PM
Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras has ordered the temporary closure of all the country's banks.
http://www.skynews.com.au/news/top-stories/2015/06/29/crisis-hit-greece-imposes-capital-controls.html
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on June 28, 2015, 02:38:26 PM
Hi! i am starting a day-by-day diary of me and the second Greek crisis...
It is going to be a bit too personal but never mind...

Friday, June the 26th

- Tension at work. I practically force my employers for a small advance on my salary.
- After work I fill the car to the brim and buy the week's groceries with a bit more for my preps, following my $3 method.
- In the evening the Greece-EU talks fail and by midnight it is known we are heading for a referendum

Saturday, June the 27th

- ATMs are empty. People are also showing up in the Supermarkets. The larger the city the more paniced they are.
- My father is at a trip. Late after work I gain access to his ATM withdraw card, but it is already too late.
He assures me he has cash for a month. (electronic money is not big in Greece)

Sunday, June the 28th


- More people are lining infront of the ATMs that have been partly replendished. Lines at the gas stations are forming in the major cities.
- I am following my general plan. I have expenses for the next months –including car insurance.
- I am visiting with friends after work so I lose the chance once again to get some more cash.
- By nightfall capital controls are in place, the banks will remain closed for the week and only $70 daily withdraws will be allowed.
- Payday would fall within the week, both for me and for the young couple that leases a studio I own. OUCH!
- I am formulating a plan how to manage what is left of the advance for the daily expenses and for gas to work. Will NOT touch my few savings yet.

Leasons Learned:
1. Had I a better communication and a common plan with my father (he is still reluctant to) we would be set with much needed cash early. Think and act Early!
2. Things are too evolve for the worst faster that one would expect, mainly precipitated by the mass hysteria. The worst is not unimaginable anymore!

Title: Re: Greece
Post by: bcksknr on June 28, 2015, 03:14:49 PM
     OK, I know I should be more informed, at least about the ramifications of a default. It seems as though just the very real possibility of that is causing the beginning of a social upheaval in Greece. This has probably been done elsewhere, but can someone explain what exactly is going on with the Greek economy and how it is affecting the European economy and what this may mean for the global economy (and the U.S. economy)?
     Here's how I see it: Greece has been borrowing from other EU countries to balance it's budget (I don't know why, but is it because they spend more than they take in?). These "loans" have been given a couple of times, because Greece can't or won't cut back on spending or increase productivity. There is a looming deadline for the next loan and some strict measures to force the Greeks to "get their house in order" or not get the loan. At this point, a large portion of the pending loan will actually go to the lenders, to pay off some of the previous loans, leaving little for Greece to use to bail themselves out. The Greek people don't seem willing or able to make the painful cuts necessary to begin to reduce their debt load. If this latest loan doesn't go through, Greece will default on it's debts (both to itself and the EU?). Then what? They get tossed out of the EU for being deadbeats? The countries that are owed money get stiffed? I'ts not like Greece can declare bankruptcy and the EU can "sell" it to get some of their investment back. Or can they?
     This sounds like someone who has charged so much on their credit card that they can't even pay the Interest charges, so they begin to put the payments on a bank loan, but they keep on using the credit card. This has to end in disaster. So what is the finale for the debtor, the banker, other bank customers, etc.
     Am I seeing this right and where does it go from here? What does it mean for us?   
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: chad on June 28, 2015, 03:20:10 PM
Hold on tight greekman this may get messy...hopefully your preps will help maintain some "normalcy" in the days to follow.

Thanks for the update.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: TheRetiredRancher on June 28, 2015, 03:22:26 PM
Thank you Greekman!  This will help us all. 

If you have the desire to and you take really good daily notes it would be really useful to the prepper community if you would write a book of your experiences like Ferfal did about Argentina's default.  It is easy to self publish on Kindle and might be a good income stream for you during the next few difficult years.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Carl on June 28, 2015, 03:38:16 PM
I could send a few dollars,if you get in a jam.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Cedar on June 28, 2015, 05:55:02 PM
Hi! i am starting a day-by-day diary of me and the second Greek crisis...
It is going to be a bit too personal but never mind...

+1 for this.

Cedar
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Cedar on June 28, 2015, 05:56:09 PM
Banks in Greece will not open on Monday as officials scrambled to prevent the country's financial system from collapsing in panic. Account holders will face tough limits on what they can withdraw from ATMs, and the stock exchange will reportedly be shut. The measures were announced Sunday as Greece slid rapidly toward default and exit from the eurozone.
http://money.cnn.com/2015/06/28/news/economy/greece-banks-ecb/index.html

Cedar
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Cedar on June 28, 2015, 05:59:10 PM
     OK, I know I should be more informed, at least about the ramifications of a default. It seems as though just the very real possibility of that is causing the beginning of a social upheaval in Greece.

Not just Greece kiddo.. not just Greece.

Cedar
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Chemsoldier on June 28, 2015, 06:11:27 PM
Hi! i am starting a day-by-day diary of me and the second Greek crisis...

Thank you for doing this.  +1

Stay safe my friend.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: mnotlyon on June 28, 2015, 06:25:24 PM
I'd be very interested to hear about what you use for money, what items are hard to come by, and how citizens react. I'd subscribe to your book if it helps.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: iam4liberty on June 28, 2015, 06:43:55 PM
One big question which needs answering is who will have control of the remaining 112.5 tons of Greek gold which used to back Greece's currency.  Greece failed in its repatriation efforts so it is held by the Fed, the German bank, and a bit in Switzerland.  If Greece pulls out of EU, chances are Swiss will give it to the Greek government and Germany will hand it over to EU.  But what will the Fed do? Will they support Greece or will they support the EU central bank in this dispute?  The political ramifications for the US are huge.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: TheRetiredRancher on June 28, 2015, 07:00:41 PM
The gold issue is one I had not heard off. Interesting!
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: iam4liberty on June 28, 2015, 07:11:01 PM
The gold issue is one I had not heard off. Interesting!

It is being covered in the gold news as it is one reason gold prices are being suppressed. The market feared Greece would sell it off to pay the most current loan calls.   But the new Greek government instead tried to secure it as the starting capital for a new Greek currency.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on June 28, 2015, 11:06:04 PM
One big question which needs answering is who will have control of the remaining 112.5 tons of Greek gold which used to back Greece's currency.  Greece failed in its repatriation efforts so it is held by the Fed, the German bank, and a bit in Switzerland.  If Greece pulls out of EU, chances are Swiss will give it to the Greek government and Germany will hand it over to EU.  But what will the Fed do? Will they support Greece or will they support the EU central bank in this dispute?  The political ramifications for the US are huge.

well the renewed greek dept is under the Uk law, not the local. ergo it will just be seized. had it been under the Greek law, a definitive (greek) Court order should be issued for that, would be impossible...


     OK, I know I should be more informed, at least about the ramifications of a default. It seems as though just the very real possibility of that is causing the beginning of a social upheaval in Greece. This has probably been done elsewhere, but can someone explain what exactly is going on with the Greek economy and how it is affecting the European economy and what this may mean for the global economy (and the U.S. economy)?
     Here's how I see it: Greece has been borrowing from other EU countries to balance it's budget (I don't know why, but is it because they spend more than they take in?). These "loans" have been given a couple of times, because Greece can't or won't cut back on spending or increase productivity. There is a looming deadline for the next loan and some strict measures to force the Greeks to "get their house in order" or not get the loan. At this point, a large portion of the pending loan will actually go to the lenders, to pay off some of the previous loans, leaving little for Greece to use to bail themselves out. The Greek people don't seem willing or able to make the painful cuts necessary to begin to reduce their debt load. If this latest loan doesn't go through, Greece will default on it's debts (both to itself and the EU?). Then what? They get tossed out of the EU for being deadbeats? The countries that are owed money get stiffed? I'ts not like Greece can declare bankruptcy and the EU can "sell" it to get some of their investment back. Or can they?

What is mising from your analysis is this. Upon the IMF-EU intervention, stark austerity measures were implemented with the purpose of creatign an internal devaluation, since greek holds Euros.
But calculations were done on the wrong ypothesis. there is a thing called "multiplier something" and shows how much state revenues will fall when market is shrank. It was supposed to be close to 1, so what the State would loose as much tax money as it would save. But this thing faile cos we soon enter a recessive spiral.
Almost a year, the IMF itself- accepted miscacuculating this multiplier. It seems its real value may be up to 2.6.
that means that the Greek state is loosing 2.6 times in revenue for what is saving/investing/subdisizing.
scary huh?
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on June 29, 2015, 01:27:40 PM
Monday, June the 29th

- The day passed rather calmly considering. People lined up at the ATMs, did their supplies shopping, sometime in exorbitant amounts, like 500 Euros.
- It is unknown how long the 60euro limit will remain, cos money will run out eventually.
- Some businessses refuse Credit & Debit Cards. Cash is king
- Personally i filled out my gas tank and bought with a debit card the tidbits of stored preps I was sort of according to my plan.
And of course withdrew my share of 60.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Cedar on June 29, 2015, 02:20:11 PM
- Personally i filled out my gas tank and bought with a debit card the tidbits of stored preps I was sort of according to my plan.

Are you limiting driving more than you normally would?

Cedar
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Smurf Hunter on June 29, 2015, 02:35:43 PM
Thanks for the continued updates GreekMan.

I hope we never need to refer to your notes during our future crisis.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: endurance on June 29, 2015, 02:37:26 PM
Monday, June the 29th

- The day passed rather calmly considering. People lined up at the ATMs, did their supplies shopping, sometime in exorbitant amounts, like 500 Euros.
- It is unknown how long the 60euro limit will remain, cos money will run out eventually.
- Some businessses refuse Credit & Debit Cards. Cash is king
- Personally i filled out my gas tank and bought with a debit card the tidbits of stored preps I was sort of according to my plan.
And of course withdrew my share of 60.
The Greek Ferfal has arrived!
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: nkawtg on June 29, 2015, 02:47:10 PM
Oh, well said!!
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: The Spartan Dad on June 29, 2015, 05:04:39 PM
Couldn't you in theory use prepaid cards to transfer money out of a bank account and keep it locked into a preferable currency?

Essentially, use your bank account/debit card (direct transfer only.. NOT credit cards) to order multiple 100 Euro prepaid Visa or Am Ex cards. Now you have easily spendable currency that's locked into Euros. If your bank account gets converted in drachmas, you've already converted X percentage of it to Euros which would be accepted anywhere Visa or Am Ex is. They might not be easily spendable at the moment if businesses are accepting cash only right now but eventually they'll have to go back to accepting cards... or just an outright trade of a card(s) for groceries, services, rent, etc. if Euros are in high demand down the road.

I don't see why someone couldn't order as many of these as they desired using Amazon, Paypal (direct bank account transfer possible), or however online if not in a physical store. Possibly a person couldn't do this now in Greece with the bank holiday (maybe you still could?) but it would have been an option on the Friday before and over the weekend in the lead up to it when ATMs were getting cleaned out.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Cedar on June 29, 2015, 08:46:08 PM
Greeks are rushing to Bitcoin. With bank doors slammed shut, frantic Greeks are turning to online trading platforms to see if the digital money Bitcoin is a better bet than the euro. Ten times as many Greeks are registering to trade bitcoins on the German marketplace Bitcoin.de than usual, according to CEO Oliver Flaskaemper. Bitcoin trades from Greece have shot up 79% from their ten-week average on Bitstamp, the world's third-largest exchange.
http://money.cnn.com/2015/06/29/technology/greece-bitcoin/index.html

Cedar
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on June 29, 2015, 10:30:22 PM
morning folks!
multi-answers....

Quote
Are you limiting driving more than you normally would?
Yep! now it is work only. Until this clears out I will not visit the campsite i have setup in our mountain.
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w192/greekpreparedness/web-0511_zpstdffjuto.jpg~original
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w192/greekpreparedness/web-0500_zps8clcqurk.jpg~original
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w192/greekpreparedness/web-0507_zps2nj3ube5.jpg~original
In fact last week I recharged my drill and got some monster screws to make soem serious work there
Quote
The Greek Ferfal has arrived!
LOLOLOL! well he has been an inspiration and a savior at times

Quote
Couldn't you in theory use prepaid cards to transfer money out of a bank account and keep it locked into a preferable currency?
I do not think it is possible with foreign banks. Also I think this particular situation will be short lived. Banks will run out of oney within days and then it is either an agreement or leaving Euro alltogether

Quote
I could send a few dollars,if you get in a jam.
thanks for the offer Carl. But i think we will run out of meds before we run out of money. My father has a heart condition, taking 7 different pills. If we go that far then i will ask for the forums help. (but i am formulating a plan to buying them from nearby Bulgaria)

Ok...that's it for now, got to go for my daily ATM run before work today!

PS..Guys and Gals i need some help with rechecking my assumptions.
How do you feel this situation will evolve?
And do you think has gone too far with the referendum and practically severing ties with the EU leadership?

Title: Re: Greece
Post by: mountainmoma on June 29, 2015, 11:05:17 PM
My take would be that everyone votes against the austerity and you will leave the Euro  - and after some adjustment, things will calm down.

I think you had said if more austerity was done it would cause 25% additional tax on FOOD ( what you call VAT) ? with things like that offered as a "solution" I do not think there is any choice but to leave the Euro -- In my state taxing food is illegal as it is a necessity !
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Cedar on June 29, 2015, 11:09:31 PM
Nice campspot Greekman! How is the water situation up there however?

Cedar
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: iam4liberty on June 29, 2015, 11:25:45 PM

PS..Guys and Gals i need some help with rechecking my assumptions.
How do you feel this situation will evolve?
And do you think has gone too far with the referendum and practically severing ties with the EU leadership?

If you are right about the Greek government losing control of gold holdings,  then there really is no short term choice but staying in EU. In which case the Greek government froze access to accounts so they could work out a formula for taking a portion of bank accounts and pensions.  Probably would be something like a twenty-five percent seizure.   They will argue that this was necessary to be fair given certain individuals avoiding taxes.   They also will claim that this impacts wealthiest most so they are looking after the vulnerable.   Of course it will simply be a kick the can down the road.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Bonnieblue2A on June 29, 2015, 11:29:48 PM
@ Greekman,

Please be proactive in securing life dependent medications sooner rather than later.   

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/f981cd1e-1e6b-11e5-aa5a-398b2169cf79.html#axzz3eWHg0vPi

It is going to be important to stay ahead of the curve on all your family's needs.   

Thoughts and prayers for your safety during this very uncertain time.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Cedar on June 30, 2015, 10:53:48 AM
PS..Guys and Gals i need some help with rechecking my assumptions.
How do you feel this situation will evolve?
And do you think has gone too far with the referendum and practically severing ties with the EU leadership?

I would hesitate to presume anything about this... with political stuff like Greece, Russia, Ukraine, Iran and so forth, it really is a crapshoot. We have no idea what is happening behind the scenes, we have no idea whose egos are involved, what is the political gain for whomever. The economy worldwide seems to be made of a house of cards that 'someone' keeps shoring up with a gossamer substance which needs to be shored up again with the next duststorm. So many people wonder how it has held up as long as it has, and yet, 'magically' it keeps holding together, but not solving the problems.. and it just keeps getting worse.

Something will happen.. it will not stay the same. Whether that is a good something or a bad something.. or something good which turns bad, or something bad with turns good, who is to say until years and years and years from now when they analyze it to death and then maybe even then they will still quarrel about that really happened.

The best you can do is do what you personally can, get meds for your kinfolk, and hang on for a potential wild ride.

Cedar
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: endurance on June 30, 2015, 11:50:55 AM
...

PS..Guys and Gals i need some help with rechecking my assumptions.
How do you feel this situation will evolve?
And do you think has gone too far with the referendum and practically severing ties with the EU leadership?
I think you're in for one of the most challenging eras in your life, but a time you're likely to look back on with mixed feelings; friendships will be tested and those that endure will be the deepest friendships you'll ever have, others will stab you in the back over a dollar when times are at their toughest.  You'll develop a network of people from all walks of life that you'll depend on and who depend on you.  Carve our your niche, carve it deep and wide so there will always be people who will protect you as a resource.  What you have as possessions will matter little, what you have between your ears will matter a lot.

I think things are going to get very tough for a while with wide spread shortages of everything not locally produced until a new economy is established.  Common medications, even over the counter are likely to be in short supply.  Energy shortages in all forms will emerge, from electrical to transportation, so any independence you can build in, all the better.  The Euro is likely going to stick around even after the country leaves the Euro because the new money won't be trusted, but if you work for the government or collect a pension you might be paid in one currency, but be unable to spend it and have to exchange it at unfair rates to get money you can use.  Pensions will likely be unreliable and there's going to be suffering among the aged.  Be charitable if you can be, but family comes first.

Eventually an economy will return, but it's likely it will take years to balance out and it will be to a new, lower standard of living than you were accustomed to.  Hope that nothing interferes with the big economic engine of Greece, tourism.  High crime, riots, and civil war will be a worst case scenario, but likely to occur to some degree.  The more effectively the tourist destinations can be protected, the better for everyone.

And honestly, it's a mess with the EU leaders and the situation that has evolved.  I don't think there ever was a right answer; suffering was going to have to come no matter how you look at it.  That time will come for each nation eventually since all modern economics are built on debt and bubbles, but you guys are leading the way, thus, why I think we're all so interested to hear your stories. 

An on-line friend was 16 when NATO intervened in Serbia.  Hell of a rough story, but people endure.  They find a way to get through the crap and find joy in simple moments.  It changes you forever, but it's not all bad.  Your timeline shortens, your expectations change, you adapt and you overcome.  Greekman, you're a smart guy.  You'll find a way through and I look forward to learning from you on your journey.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Cedar on June 30, 2015, 01:08:37 PM
That time will come for each nation eventually since all modern economics are built on debt and bubbles, but you guys are leading the way, thus, why I think we're all so interested to hear your stories.

Yeppers.

Cedar
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Cedar on June 30, 2015, 02:47:46 PM
Fitch downgrades Greece to CC as default looms

Cedar
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Cedar on June 30, 2015, 03:20:39 PM
Eurozone finance ministers have rejected a Greek government call to extend its bailout, just hours before it expires and a €1.6bn (£1.1bn) payment to the IMF falls due.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33325886

Cedar
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on June 30, 2015, 03:48:24 PM
Bonnieblue2A. cedar & Endurance
thanks for your encouraging words....

mountainmoma
VAt means Value Added Tax and it isprevalent in Europe. All merchandises and services have this tax added.
I think it is unfair, especially on food and utilities, especially for people on a low income. As 50 percent of it is consumed in life-sustaining things.

Tuesday, June the 30th.
- Things are calm, i think we have reached an equilibrium for now
- The media are in a rage of black propaganda, scare tactics and misinformation. i.e. they play the first part of CNNs report on the ATM lines (or should it be ques?) but purposefully omit the second part that shows Athens bustling with traffic as usual.
- I had word that in the tourist islands it is business as usual. Strangely it seems it is the tourist that are hitting the bottle instead of the locals
- In the morning I found elders standing in anticipation outside the bank. It is of those that did not came into the modern era and are lacking ATM cards. There are reports that other elders cannot handle the ATM process and have their cards locked and kept by the machine. It is said that the banks will open Thursday for the pensioners only and a limit of 240 Eurtos will be maintained (4days worth of 60s, Monday to Thursday)
- I do not see the situation going much further as money will eventually run out. Thus I started emptying an account i keep a very small amount of money for travelling purposes.
- I have allocated funds for 30 days of travel to work, but not more
- In the Greek survival forum we have started a thread on material assistance between members, and we are in the process of establising the process. (mainly finding a way to maintaining anonymity for the sender)

Leasons Learned:
Maintain more than a bank account, so that you have more sources of cash. Do not link accounts to the same ATM/debit card cos they will be treated as one regarding withdrawl limits. Start e-banking so that you can transfer funds between accounts (that is useful if you have a seperate account for your Credit Card)

On the lighter side of things.
Cedar, my campsite is just that, not a BugOut place. Actually it is on a mountain side where locals free camp during the summer.
There is no water close by, but there is a busting village 15minutes of walk from it.
I had spoted the particluar spot 2 years ago and it is rather private, at the end of a trail. I was happy to find that on the back side of it the forest was electively harvested for telephone pole trees the year before, so there is a lot of debris to BBQ and enjoy a nighttime fire.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: archer on June 30, 2015, 04:15:54 PM
Subject: CNN Breaking News

-- Greece officially defaults on a $1.7 billion payment to the IMF.

Greece has defaulted on the 1.5 billion euros ($1.7 billion) it owes the International Monetary Fund [money.cnn.com], becoming
the first developed economy to default to the IMF. It is the biggest debt default by a country ever.

Greece is 323 billion euros ($352.7 billion) in debt to other European countries, the European Central Bank and the
International Monetary Fund. The sum is equivalent to more than 175% of the country's GDP.

Greece took preemptive measures Monday, closing its banks and markets until July 6. The move caused European stocks to fall. The
government in Athens also restricted bank withdrawals to 60 euros (U.S. $66) a day.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Cedar on June 30, 2015, 04:53:31 PM
A friend just sent me this... and 5 ways for Greece to get out of it
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-06-30/these-are-greeces-5-possible-paths

Cedar
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: chad on June 30, 2015, 07:23:26 PM
I think you're in for one of the most challenging eras in your life, but a time you're likely to look back on with mixed feelings; friendships will be tested and those that endure will be the deepest friendships you'll ever have, others will stab you in the back over a dollar when times are at their toughest.  You'll develop a network of people from all walks of life that you'll depend on and who depend on you.  Carve our your niche, carve it deep and wide so there will always be people who will protect you as a resource.  What you have as possessions will matter little, what you have between your ears will matter a lot.

I think things are going to get very tough for a while with wide spread shortages of everything not locally produced until a new economy is established.  Common medications, even over the counter are likely to be in short supply.  Energy shortages in all forms will emerge, from electrical to transportation, so any independence you can build in, all the better.  The Euro is likely going to stick around even after the country leaves the Euro because the new money won't be trusted, but if you work for the government or collect a pension you might be paid in one currency, but be unable to spend it and have to exchange it at unfair rates to get money you can use.  Pensions will likely be unreliable and there's going to be suffering among the aged.  Be charitable if you can be, but family comes first.

Eventually an economy will return, but it's likely it will take years to balance out and it will be to a new, lower standard of living than you were accustomed to.  Hope that nothing interferes with the big economic engine of Greece, tourism.  High crime, riots, and civil war will be a worst case scenario, but likely to occur to some degree.  The more effectively the tourist destinations can be protected, the better for everyone.

And honestly, it's a mess with the EU leaders and the situation that has evolved.  I don't think there ever was a right answer; suffering was going to have to come no matter how you look at it.  That time will come for each nation eventually since all modern economics are built on debt and bubbles, but you guys are leading the way, thus, why I think we're all so interested to hear your stories. 

An on-line friend was 16 when NATO intervened in Serbia.  Hell of a rough story, but people endure.  They find a way to get through the crap and find joy in simple moments.  It changes you forever, but it's not all bad.  Your timeline shortens, your expectations change, you adapt and you overcome.  Greekman, you're a smart guy.  You'll find a way through and I look forward to learning from you on your journey.



Wise words, Brother...+1
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Cedar on June 30, 2015, 08:39:35 PM
(http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/153A/production/_83943450_who_owns_greeces_deb_v2_624.png)

Cedar
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: TheRetiredRancher on June 30, 2015, 09:04:03 PM
The fact that Italy and Spain own a lot of Greek debt adds to the chance of contagion.  But you can certainly see why Germany does not want Greece to default.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on June 30, 2015, 10:27:23 PM
A friend just sent me this... and 5 ways for Greece to get out of it
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-06-30/these-are-greeces-5-possible-paths

4&5 are possible/plausible

But in 4 we may see a rapid devaluation of the IOUs. Street market will trading them at less than face value.
In 5 I am not sure of the positive effects being that remarkable. Most raw materials are imported (practically doubling in cost) and the increased incentive for exports (hard currency0 may lead to local shortages. It has been happening with locally produced and low price medicines already
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Smurf Hunter on July 01, 2015, 11:30:05 AM
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/t31.0-8/s960x960/11713841_855978657829161_7805436585036333945_o.jpg)


Full res. link:  http://demonocracy.info/infographics/eu/debt_greek/debt_greek.html
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: CKMe on July 01, 2015, 01:39:17 PM
 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on July 01, 2015, 02:04:19 PM
Wensday, July the 1st

- Tomorrow lines at the ATMs increased. half past 10 in the night and there were 4-5 people in the ATMs in my town. people either seem to take the situation seriously or are genuinely scared by the media.
- I also withheard conversations and curses on the political system. Sentiments go back to the 70s. people are getting too polarized. Propaganda wins...
- More and more businesses decline credit or debit cards, especially gas station. the State issued a mandaneforcing them to accept them.
- I heard the disturbing info that the oil companies demand to be paid in advance either by wire transfer or by Cash! With their margin very low, some gas stations will eventually will looose liquidity and close.
- I regret not buying those surplus NATO gas can last year. Though transpoting (passenger car) and storing them is very problematic in my case.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Josh the Aspie on July 01, 2015, 04:13:17 PM
Greek offer to end default crisis a day late and €€ short (http://hotair.com/archives/2015/07/01/greek-offer-to-end-default-crisis-a-day-late-and-ee-short/)
Quote
Markets around the world, including the futures market for the US, leaped upward overnight on word that Greece had largely accepted the last proposal from the European Union to end the default crisis and keep the Greeks within the Eurozone.  Investors should have looked before they leaped. Reports first assumed that the letter from Greek PM Alexis Tsipras mainly capitulated to the EU’s last position, but it contains significant changes to that proposal.

So that'd explain the upswing in the market.  It's all based on the perceptions of those buying and selling, betting on their perceived futures.

And, with respect Greekman, I don't think either your government, or it's debtors, have any idea what austerity actually is.

It is synonymous with frugality, and simplicity.  It is highly related to the concept of "being Spartan".  It involves cutting all spending, luxury, etc, to the point where you only have what you absolutely must have to survive.

An example is the austere life of a Franciscan monk, who has a small living space perhaps 6x6, with a mattress, possibly a rack to keep bugs from getting into the bed, one or two changes of clothes, a pair of sandles, his rosary for his prayers (the entire point of his being there) and depending on the era, either his own bible, or access to various books in the library.  The monks often grew what food they could, and had walls of rock or stucco, designed more for defense than for physical beauty.

It is asinine for them to call higher taxes (particularly on the homeless, as you've said) 'austerity'.  Austerity means scaling back on the expense (and thus necessarily the size) of government.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on July 01, 2015, 10:48:30 PM
of course.
They just use it as it fits them. From just cutting back some expenses, all the way to cutting back on healthcare.
In the first stage of the crissi there where cancer patients not finding their medications, or couldn't pay for their exams
Somehow they can be more austere than the Franciscans whne it comes to others
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on July 02, 2015, 10:50:42 PM
Thursday, July the 2nd

- I spent some hours in the vening watching TV. The propaganda against the referendum has become vehemently disgusting. it is hard to believe that there are people that will fall to it. It is actually so provocative that makes resonable people suspicious of its purposes and fundng.
BTW all the corrupt parties taht brought Greece the its knees are against the referendum.
- It seems we will be facing lack of fruit packing material at work. Companies cannot import raw materials at the moment and are running on stock.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: FreeLancer on July 02, 2015, 11:26:45 PM
I heard Varoufakis on the BBC (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33370592) saying he "guaranteed 100% success" of avoiding a Grexit, regardless of the outcome of the referendum.  Is this a common sentiment in Greece, or is this guy delusional?  My understanding is that the rest of the world sees a NO vote as evidence that the country has no desire to remain in the EU.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: bcksknr on July 03, 2015, 07:01:27 AM
     Interestingly, I didn't see anything about Greece on the morning news (CBS); I only saw the first 1/2 hour. It seems as though the news cycle is getting even shorter. My thoughts are that since there wasn't some giganormous meltdown following the "deadline", this has been put on the back burner, at least for general American consumption, for now. "If it bleeds, it leads".
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on July 03, 2015, 12:10:33 PM
I heard Varoufakis on the BBC (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33370592) saying he "guaranteed 100% success" of avoiding a Grexit, regardless of the outcome of the referendum.  Is this a common sentiment in Greece, or is this guy delusional?  My understanding is that the rest of the world sees a NO vote as evidence that the country has no desire to remain in the EU.

I think it is his kind of tactics. It is another way to say "I had to put dynamite in the house, but i still believe in having a house" (but not this one)
The quote has the real simple truth in its core, The new Syriza goverment had a tall order in its scope. REFORM the German imposed mercantilistc Europena policies along/by the Greek program negotiations.

And to get to know the man -and how peculiar he is- http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2015/06/28/as-it-happened-yanis-varoufakis-intervention-during-the-27th-june-2015-eurogroup-meeting/
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on July 03, 2015, 12:49:15 PM
I do not know the guy, but he got things right

http://davidstockmanscontracorner.com/good-on-you-alexis-tsipras-part-1/
http://davidstockmanscontracorner.com/good-on-you-greece-but-dont-waver-now-part-2/
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on July 03, 2015, 03:57:14 PM
Friday. July the 3rd

ATM stories
I will admit that if you ever see an ATM security camera footage of a guy standing in line with a glass of Erdinger in his hand, it was me! Well, it sort of happened that way. Actually i was in the bistro next to the bank, drinking my beers waiting for the time to get past midnight.
I met a crowd this time. The weekend is starting and we also heard about that FT article for a coming deposits haircut.
Among the people waiting was a familiar face. We had time to chat and it turned out to be a farmer from next county i had inspected his cherry farms almost 10 years now..Want to bet that next weekened it will be a TSP member? LOLOLOLOL

- The accountant in work deposited produce advances to the farmers and was paying with wire transfer our suppliers.
- We had a scary moment yesterday cos we are receiving half off the packing material orders and the fruit can't wait. Most raw materials are imported, even preformed wood for fruit crates. That has something to say for a delapidated, non-selfsustaining economy.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Chemsoldier on July 04, 2015, 10:36:37 AM
Associate Press article on making it in the rural areas of Greece and the advantages of growing your own food there. 

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_GREECE_RESILIENT_VILLAGES?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

Things I noted is that folks had to go into a larger town to get at an ATM which was a 40 Euro cab fare and that previous austerity made the bus route through town get cut.  Perhaps they need some sort of ride share program.  A village van might be a good investment for small communities.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on July 04, 2015, 12:54:55 PM
won't happen, it is not our style. But municipalities have vans etc, so they could possibly put into such use.
I worked in such villages as crop damage inspector. the elders there are left to their own powers, which are few.
A shame for the local governors.

Do notice a thing in the article.
The low-tech pension distribution system for the remote areas

Quote
Associate Press article on making it in the rural areas of Greece and the advantages of growing your own food there. 
Where i work have gone beyond that...Some people have their own tanks with sweet water fish caught in the arrigation chanells of the general area.

BTW Karitaina has a great historical suignificance, cos it was where the black powder for the revolution arms of 1821 was mainly produced. And for good reason
I have traveled the Karitaina road twice. it is so narrow and winding that there are turns for one car only. in several instances i was honking to be heard, cos i could definetely could not be seen!!!!
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on July 04, 2015, 03:49:02 PM
Saturday, July the 4th


- I had just some disturbing news. It seems that there is bad credit somewhere in the fuel trade loop. Gas stations may be prepaying in cash or transfer, but the transporters and customs/tax handlers have huge (like 6-moths worth) payments to receive from the refineries. They are in the brink of extinction since they cannot refinance themselves.
- Businesses in large areas have already put people on leave indefinitely. Some decline even payments in cash, cos they do not want to commit to a client. We have almost reached a total stand still.
- It is the night before the referendum and people will be voting on sentiment and party politics. It is about the right and left wing trap, and it is about the "haves" and "have nots". Reason and analysis have long been ousted, and really a few people know what the referendum dilemma is for. We will be seeing pensioners voting FOR the measures just to realize that these hide pension cuts to less than 1/3 of.

- Things are fine at work cos the fruit retail market is working on cash alone. I will be paid in Monday, but it is questionable if there will still be money at the ATMs. I am quite composed cos I have some cashed saved long before.
- I did my first supermarket run ever! I used my father’s debit card to buy a small amount of home supplies and food. We are good for a month without touching our preps.
- We have started freezing baked red peppers for the year. We will be storing more than usual  to last us the whole winter.
peppers are the perfect companion for stored dry foods.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: chad on July 04, 2015, 04:01:45 PM
Glad your o.k. G-man..Thanks for the update.

The peppers you bake are they red bell peppers?  What are a couple of ways you incorporate the peppers with your dry foods?
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: iam4liberty on July 04, 2015, 04:39:35 PM
It is the night before the referendum and people will be voting on sentiment and party politics. It is about the right and left

Over the years people have acclimated to the idea that voting is about choosing the lesser of two evils.  But as this cartoon dramatizes, ultimately it leads to the same place:

(http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/realityzone/GreekDeadlyReferendum362.jpg)

My fear is that this same situation will emerge everywhere as centralized, debt based banking runs its course.  My hope is that Greece can find the solution and once again show us all the path to civilization.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: TheRetiredRancher on July 04, 2015, 04:53:22 PM
G-man, I know you will be very busy and uptight Sunday, but if you get a chance give us some updates on the mood in your city. It would be interesting to see how it changes during the day. Are people starting out calm and getting more irritated as the day goes on?  Are there any issues in actually voting?  Are demonstrations being held, if so are they peaceful?  The type of local issues that the international media won't bother covering but is important to you. We Are all interested and I truly wish you the best. Hang in there.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on July 04, 2015, 10:34:36 PM
if you can google translate it, this will be a good read.
It is about the 1893 Greek bankruptcy and the events that lead to two national humiliations on the battlefields (1897 & 1922).
Same old players, same old story,
https://www.facebook.com/savvas.vlassis/posts/1078333498846682
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on July 05, 2015, 01:52:57 PM
G-man, I know you will be very busy and uptight Sunday, but if you get a chance give us some updates on the mood in your city. It would be interesting to see how it changes during the day. Are people starting out calm and getting more irritated as the day goes on?  Are there any issues in actually voting?  Are demonstrations being held, if so are they peaceful?  The type of local issues that the international media won't bother covering but is important to you. We Are all interested and I truly wish you the best. Hang in there.

well, things in small cities are way more quiet. Peopel mostly hold their views to themselves and when the conversation goes there they usually agree to disagree. Thigs are dfferent in the big towns, especially considering the "YES" voters.
BTW I guess you have heard of the results by the tiem you read this. There is a remarkable dfference for the NO.
We are plodding unchartered territories...

Sunday, July the 5th

- It has all been about the referendum with lots of needless chatter
- Nothing spectacular personally. I just contacted a fellow survivalist and a preparedness concious aquientance to see their level of mobilization.
- I tried a trick for getting more money from the ATM byt it was already disabled by my bank.
- The trick is moving funds to empty accounts (by e-banking or by the ATM) and then taking your 60s from each one.
- People and business in much need of cash are doing another trick. They find businesses that are being paid by cash mostly (like bakeries etc) and they buy out their cash by wire transfer
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Chemsoldier on July 05, 2015, 02:51:57 PM
Interesting.  You are right Greekman, looks like a decisive "no" vote.  The talking heads called it "too close to tell" and a disaster if a no vote occurred.  We have presidential elections where 53-46 is considered close and this is looking 61-39. 

There will be tough times ahead for Greece, but it will be the tough times that they chose and in that way legitimate.  I think in the end it is definitely better than externally imposed tough times that would have resulted from a yes vote.

Stay loose Greekman, we are thinking about you (and waiting for the equivalent all over the world).
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Carl on July 05, 2015, 05:38:06 PM
Growing pains...The U.S. did it in the 30's and may again soon...our system is debt based and little backs the dollar also,
which with new colors and all....looks a lot like MONOPOLY MONEY.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: endurance on July 05, 2015, 06:17:05 PM
Hmmm, and perhaps Germany should be reminded that Greece forgave 280% of their GDP worth of debt in 1953.  Not that I'm expecting them to do the same in kind. ::)
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: nkawtg on July 05, 2015, 08:09:09 PM
It was debt accumulated by the Nazi's, a bit different than Greeese's socilist driven spending spree.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: busymomx3 on July 05, 2015, 09:17:48 PM
Saw the news was saying it was a No vote.  Scary for sure.  Stay safe Greekman. 
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: iam4liberty on July 05, 2015, 10:24:40 PM
It was debt accumulated by the Nazi's, a bit different than Greeese's socilist driven spending spree.

The situation Greece finds itself in wasn't caused solely (nor probably even mostly)  by fiscal policy.   As Milton Friedman pointed out in the 1990s a unified monetary system that doesn't adjust based on the structural differences of each market is subject to shocks and misallocation of resources.


http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/the-euro--monetary-unity-to-political-disunity (http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/the-euro--monetary-unity-to-political-disunity)

 In Greece's case it is manifesting as very high unemployment because Greece could no longer adjust its rate vs.  other countries but rather had to accept the rates of the EU as a whole.   The euro is a destructive force for about half of the countries in the EU and as of yet no one knows how to fix this or even if it can be fixed within the rules of the monetary union.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: nkawtg on July 05, 2015, 11:18:13 PM
What about a reset?
What recourse does the eu and world bank have if Greese said screw you?
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: FreeLancer on July 05, 2015, 11:58:26 PM
(http://static.businessinsider.com/image/5599a61ddd08951b688b45bc/image.jpg)
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on July 06, 2015, 09:41:20 AM
nice catch freelancer... I ma saving and i will eb photoshoping stars to red as the situaton develops for other countries. LOL

Quote
iam4liberty
« on: Yesterday at 10:24:40 PM »
The situation Greece finds itself in wasn't caused solely (nor probably even mostly)  by fiscal policy.   As Milton Friedman pointed out in the 1990s a unified monetary system that doesn't adjust based on the structural differences of each market is subject to shocks and misallocation of resources.

Sppkan many many times by the now resigned Greek finance minister Varoufakis.

It is said he got the axe by demand of the Troika, but I think he got off by himself because he saw a huge capitulation of the Greek goverment despite the referendum results
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: FreeLancer on July 06, 2015, 10:22:27 AM
nice catch freelancer... I ma saving and i will eb photoshoping stars to red as the situaton develops for other countries. LOL

Definitely fits the definition of "A picture's worth a thousand words."
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: BriGy86 on July 06, 2015, 11:52:36 AM
I'm finally tagging this thread to keep up on the updates.

Thank you for the first hand details.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: TheRetiredRancher on July 06, 2015, 03:40:14 PM
Varoufakis resigns. Bank holiday extended to Wednesday, but ATMs may be out of cash before then. I saw one OpEd state that Greece was 2 days from civil unrest. I am not sure what that is based on. Maybe when they estimate the cash will run out. One last try at renegotiating debt payments tomorrow. .  .  .  Then what?
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Frugal Upstate on July 06, 2015, 04:00:56 PM
Thanks for all the first hand info and lessons learned.  I appreciate it.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: busymomx3 on July 06, 2015, 07:16:04 PM
2 days, it will be interesting to see if that is actually what happens.  It will also be interesting seeing how long the money lasts and how this all plays out.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Polar Bear on July 06, 2015, 08:10:33 PM
Stay safe, Greekman.  Prayers to you and your family.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on July 07, 2015, 02:43:05 PM
nonthing remarkable for the past few days.

Tuesday, July the 7th

- All quiet in the politics front. People are composed waiting for the next move of the goverment. the world did not end with thw NO vote...
- People are resorting more and more to cash and wire transfer. Thoough troublesome it will be good in the long run. Bad credit is gone. If you can pay for it now you are royal. Else,...
- I am trying to move money between bank accounts and withdraw more cash, but it seems all methods have been blocked now.
Be flexible, have many choices and act FAST.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Wild Colonial Boy on July 08, 2015, 07:00:18 AM
nonthing remarkable for the past few days.

Tuesday, July the 7th

- All quiet in the politics front. People are composed waiting for the next move of the goverment. the world did not end with thw NO vote...
- People are resorting more and more to cash and wire transfer. Thoough troublesome it will be good in the long run. Bad credit is gone. If you can pay for it now you are royal. Else,...
- I am trying to move money between bank accounts and withdraw more cash, but it seems all methods have been blocked now.
Be flexible, have many choices and act FAST.

Greekman, has there been any talk of people heading across the border to Albania etc to use the ATM's there or do the same withdrawal rules apply.  Its not the most cost effective means of take out bulk cash but I would think you are well positioned in the north to take advantage of that.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: iam4liberty on July 08, 2015, 07:26:33 AM
Greekman, has there been any talk of people heading across the border to Albania etc to use the ATM's there or do the same withdrawal rules apply.

All Greek accounts are lock downed.  Credit,debit cards, and PayPal are shut off. They have set up a special government board,to grant permission to more funds for those living abroad.  See here: http://finance.yahoo.com/news/latest-greece-assessing-help-citizens-180712972.html.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Bonnieblue2A on July 08, 2015, 09:18:13 AM
Greece caves, formally requests ems bailout

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-08/greece-caves-formally-requests-esm-bailout-full-headline-and-next-steps-summary

Quote
In other words, and as expected, Greece has essentially capitulated to Troika demands which will come with far harsher terms and even more austerity, just to keep the myth that Greece is an "equal member" in the Eurozone, yet virtually all the proceeds will go back to repaying the ECB, the IMF and other official taxpayer-backed European creditors as well as the occasional private holdout creditor.

This is all happening as Tsipras is currently talking in the Euro parliament, where he is trying to strike a far more cooperative tone now the only Greek hope is that it is not too late for Europe to accept any offer Greece will propose, oblivious of the referendum.
   


The end of the article lists an interesting list of "next steps" in the near future.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on July 08, 2015, 09:22:08 AM
All Greek accounts are lock downed.  Credit,debit cards, and PayPal are shut off. They have set up a special government board,to grant permission to more funds for those living abroad.  See here: http://finance.yahoo.com/news/latest-greece-assessing-help-citizens-180712972.html.
nope. Credit and debit cards still work. I used mine an hour ago. Paypla seems to have disabled thos functions that allow money transfer, like money in the electronic wallet.
I will try a purchase with PP, but in a week
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Bonnieblue2A on July 08, 2015, 10:13:24 AM
Is Greece preparing to launch alternative currency?

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-08/greece-preparing-alternative-currency-kathimerini-says


Original source article in Greek:  http://www.kathimerini.gr/822626/article/oikonomia/ellhnikh-oikonomia/sxedia-gia-parallhlo-nomisma-epe3ergazetai-to-ypoyrgeio-oikonomikwn

Title: Re: Greece
Post by: iam4liberty on July 08, 2015, 10:46:11 AM
nope. Credit and debit cards still work. I used mine an hour ago.

Was that outside Greece or within? 

The news media is reporting the government did put a control over external access.  But apparently the different banks are interpreting it differently:

http://www.theguardian.com/money/2015/jun/30/greece-capital-controls-confusion-foreign-transactions-credit-cards

It is worth a try!
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: bigbear on July 08, 2015, 10:52:33 AM
Greekman - I have a friend travelling to Greece to visit relatives in the near future.  Any particular words of wisdom/preparation I should pass along?
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Bonnieblue2A on July 08, 2015, 01:22:26 PM
CNBC reporting Greek Banks will not reopen this week according to State TV

60 euro/day withdraw limit remains in place.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/102813959
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Bonnieblue2A on July 08, 2015, 03:26:08 PM
Report:  Some large Greek banks will face closure/merger,  bailout or not

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/08/us-eurozone-greece-bankclosures-idUSKCN0PI2KI20150708

Quote
One official said that Greece's four big banks - National Bank of Greece (NBGr.AT), Eurobank (EURBr.AT), Piraeus (BOPr.AT) and Alpha Bank (ACBr.AT) - could be reduced to just two, a measure that would doubtless encounter fierce resistance in Athens.

A second person said that although mergers of banks were necessary, this could happen over the longer term.

"The Greek economy is in ruins. That means the banks need a restart," said the first person, adding that prompt action was necessary following any bailout between Athens and the euro zone. "Cyprus could be a role model."

"You have a tiny bit of time ... you would do restructuring straight away."
 
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on July 08, 2015, 11:57:49 PM
Was that outside Greece or within? 
The news media is reporting the government did put a control over external access.  But apparently the different banks are interpreting it differently:
http://www.theguardian.com/money/2015/jun/30/greece-capital-controls-confusion-foreign-transactions-credit-cards

within...indeed it seems a matter of interpretation... by the Capital Controls decree one can use hsi credit card up to its monthly limit. Same goes for prepaid/debit card. One cannot raise the limit or top-off a credit card.
Indeed there are issues with Paypal users that draw money from their bank accounts and top-off paypal, since this is actually export of capital. My Paypal accoount is linked to my Credit Card, so it should be dependent to its use limits.
BTW cards issued by NON-Greek banks have no limit in transaction and ATM withdrawls.

Greekman - I have a friend travelling to Greece to visit relatives in the near future.  Any particular words of wisdom/preparation I should pass along?
I do not think that this would be a problem for him. Life goes on as usual and the Greek isles are almost secluded from the situation.
I would advise what I did for a Danish friend that will be visiting a Greek island in August. And it is nothing more that sound travelers' practices.
- Cash is King
- Have an adequate supply of personnal medications (no inport restrictions like Australia i know of)
 (in Greece you can buy any medications, except narcotics etc, despite that a subscription is required  ;))
- Have his ticket back ready and enough Euros to pay for a taxi ride to the airport (exit strategy)
Since my friend is travelling bya tour operator ti a Greek island close to Turkey, I also suggested he make a plan going home through boat to Turkey and then flying back. (there are many cases (interntionally) of tour operators going under during the season and groups left stranded)
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on July 09, 2015, 12:32:28 AM
Wensday, July the 8th

- The EU negotiations are on a critical point. By tomorrow the Greek side must submit solid proposals, and by Sunday an agreeent must be reached. Else Greece will be drained of cash
- Political rumoring time. Some say that Tsipras counted for a YES vote to the referendum, to use as the excuse to succumb. Now he seems locked in the implications of NO. If one is to accept this, then the opposition trying too hard to fail -with a stupid campaining strategy- makes sense.
- ATM stories. Was at a small line outside a bank in the morning. It was tragic to see elders with new card on hand and clueless/scared  faces. There was a lady from the bank to show themt he works, but definetely once is not enough.
After midnight it was all younsters. Sociology majors should have already started a PhD thesis on the matter.

- I started web banking today and transfered a small amount to another account, to draw an extra 60 from. My fresh paycheck will be turned into cash in a few days.
- I was laid off today. A bad developement, especially these days, but I have already saved next's years anticipated expenses, and I am close to full regarding preps. But there will be no new flashlights and IPSC matches for some time...
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on July 09, 2015, 01:50:35 AM
it was about to happen, I just found it a bit late
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6t0oMhToO4

BTW, any suggestions on what other media to reproduce my diary? Twitter maybe?
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on July 09, 2015, 04:00:49 AM
there is everything in YT
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oY8kV5n4Ftw
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: The Spartan Dad on July 09, 2015, 04:09:41 AM
Wensday, July the 8th

- I started web banking today and transfered a small amount to another account, to draw an extra 60 from. My fresh paycheck will be turned into cash in a few days.
- I was laid off today. A bad developement, especially these days, but I have already saved next's years anticipated expenses, and I am close to full regarding preps. But there will be no new flashlights and IPSC matches for some time...

Sorry to hear this Greekman. Hearing your stories gives the unfolding Greece crisis a bit of a personal note versus just a distant news story and I wish you the best in riding out the storm.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on July 09, 2015, 04:54:05 AM
I am confident I will...
My savings compartmentalization plan is solid and proven

BTW a small chronicle of how the Greek crisis came to this by a man of the former goverent, no-other.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/07/opinion/gikas-hardouvelis-greece-how-to-undo-the-damage.html?_r=0
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: osubuckeye4 on July 09, 2015, 07:53:21 AM
- I was laid off today. A bad developement, especially these days, but I have already saved next's years anticipated expenses, and I am close to full regarding preps. But there will be no new flashlights and IPSC matches for some time...
Sorry to hear that you were laid off.

I'm not trying to sound rude or presumptious, just curious, but, have you given any thought to re-locating to another country with a more sound economic climate?
 
I suppose I ask this because I'm currently in Illinois (one of the worst run states in the U.S., billions of dollars in unfunded pension liabilites) and the only thing keeping myself and my wife here are the fact that we've been with our respective companies for over a decade and are fully vested in rather lucrative severance plans should we get "rite-sized", aka laid off.

We've already agreed that if either of us got laid off, we'd re-locate to a state that was better run (most likely Indiana or Tennessee).
 
I don't know if it's quite that easy in Europe though. Can you just pack up and move to another country like you can go from state to state in the U.S.? Or, are there are a bunch of visa issues and hoops that you would have to jump through?
 
Also, I know your screenname is Greekman... so you probably do have things keeping you there. Like I said at the beginning, I'm just curious to see if it's something you're considering.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Frugal Upstate on July 09, 2015, 08:23:52 AM
Greekman--so sorry to hear you were laid off, but glad to know that you have prepared for that eventuality.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on July 09, 2015, 08:45:00 AM
osubuckeye4,
querried about it, found out that in order to succeed you got either have enough money for living for a year on your own, or haveing someone (a relative) to house you. Without a permanet housing situation you cannot get any job.
And unless it is the UK and the Scandinavan countries you will have to learn the language in that year. So countis have special courses for immigrants, in others you are on your own.
(have already have friends that work in Switzerland, Germany and Scotland)
And I do have ties to hold me here, plus I am of an age not easy for such changes.
Thanks for the interst though
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: osubuckeye4 on July 09, 2015, 01:07:45 PM
osubuckeye4,
querried about it, found out that in order to succeed you got either have enough money for living for a year on your own, or haveing someone (a relative) to house you. Without a permanet housing situation you cannot get any job.
And unless it is the UK and the Scandinavan countries you will have to learn the language in that year. So countis have special courses for immigrants, in others you are on your own.
(have already have friends that work in Switzerland, Germany and Scotland)
And I do have ties to hold me here, plus I am of an age not easy for such changes.
Thanks for the interst though
And thank you for the response! Hang in there and try to stay positive and focused on the things you can control (which is exactly what it sounds like you're doing).

Appreciate you taking the time to post your thoughts/opinions. I don't know or follow anyone else who lives in Greece, so it's all a very interesting read for me.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: busymomx3 on July 09, 2015, 01:20:24 PM
Sorry to hear you were laid off Greekman, not good all things considered.  Glad you were all set to weather the storm though.  Will you be able to find more work?  Thanks for keeping us in the loop with how your doing and the boots on the ground accounts.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on July 09, 2015, 01:21:50 PM
Quote
Appreciate you taking the time to post your thoughts/opinions. I don't know or follow anyone else who lives in Greece, so it's all a very interesting read for me.
but guys do not expect anyhting like an all-rounded report. I live a small life in a small city.
( I also try not to reproduce heresays)
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: osubuckeye4 on July 09, 2015, 03:44:04 PM
but guys do not expect anyhting like an all-rounded report. I live a small life in a small city.
( I also try not to reproduce heresays)

Oh of course not. It's just always interesting to combine the different sources.
 
I had a friend living in New Orleans during Katrina and her accounts were always interesting to incorporate in with what all the mainstream media outlets were reporting.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Carl on July 09, 2015, 04:50:41 PM
but guys do not expect anyhting like an all-rounded report. I live a small life in a small city.
( I also try not to reproduce heresays)

The life and experience of an average guy reflects better what to expect,
it is what may be thought of as little incidents that lead to great information
as a rich man or man in a large city may not even notice important details.
Though you may think it personal,we want to see what happens through your eyes.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Smurf Hunter on July 09, 2015, 05:14:45 PM
The life and experience of an average guy reflects better what to expect,
it is what may be thought of as little incidents that lead to great information
as a rich man or man in a large city may not even notice important details.
Though you may think it personal,we want to see what happens through your eyes.

+1

There are many small, but practical things. 

Maybe the mail delivery stopped, or fresh produce was no longer imported to super markets.  Those things might not make international headlines, but they would certainly affect many households.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Polar Bear on July 09, 2015, 07:49:02 PM
Sorry to hear about you being laid off.  It's great that you are in such good shape to ride it out.  You are definitely an inspiration.  This might seem over the top, but given your blogging abilities, you should write a book about your experiences.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: bigbear on July 10, 2015, 08:18:41 AM
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/greeces-tsipras-sell-austerity-deal-111433389.html

Here's a summary of recent events:
* Greece says they are going to default if they don't get an extension of credit
* EU/Banksters say not without more austerity cuts and provides terms for additional loans
* Tsipras calls for popular vote and encourages people to vote against additional cuts/EU terms
* 60% of population votes against EU terms
* EU says what's your plan then.
* Tsipras doesn't have an acceptable plan per the EU
* EU turns the screws a bit more and the terms get harsher
* Tsipras freaks out and is now working to solidify his political coalition to get central authority to negotiate with EU despite the 'no' vote.

This could easily lead to some socio-political chaos...

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong because I was doing that off the top of my head.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: nkawtg on July 10, 2015, 09:07:07 AM
Greek deal in sight as Germany bows to huge global pressure for debt relief

"Germany is at last bowing to pressure as a chorus of countries and key institutions demand debt relief for Greece, a shift that could break the five-month stalemate and avert a potentially disastrous rupture of monetary union at this Sunday’s last-ditch summit.
In a highly significant move, the European Council has called on both sides to make major concessions, insisting that the creditor powers must do their part as the radical Syriza government puts forward a new raft of proposals on economic reforms before a deadline expires tonight."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11730086/Greek-deal-in-sight-as-Germany-bows-to-huge-global-pressure-for-debt-relief.html
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: bigbear on July 10, 2015, 09:53:08 AM
Perhaps... perhaps not.  Merkel/Germany has no response to the pressure. 

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0710/713820-greece-economy/ 

"We cannot comment on their content yet," Mr Seibert said.  "We will wait until the institutions examine them and express their opinion," he said, referring to the European Commission, European Central Bank and International Monetary Fund.

We'll hear more over the weekend/Monday.  But the tone of the article seems optimistic that a deal gets done.

"Former IMF deputy director Donal Donovan has said Greece may have done enough with their latest set proposals to stave off the prospect of a 'Grexit' over the weekend....  He said there is also the question of whether the measures will actually be implemented.  He also said the question of a write down is something of a red herring, because Greece is not actually paying very much in debt servicing at the moment."
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: FreeLancer on July 10, 2015, 03:02:01 PM
Based on what's being leaked out about the new proposal, it's really starting to look like Greece may be the only country in Europe where No means Yes.

Makes no sense. What did the referendum accomplish?  Was it just a final temper tantrum thrown before the inevitable capitulation?
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on July 10, 2015, 04:06:19 PM
No one knows...maybe wish-fors collided with reality...

Friday, July the 10th

- The Greek goverment has already drafted its proposal to be submitted to the EU. At the moment of writign this the parliament is in session wth the purpose of authorizing the prime minister to negotiate. This is actually a pre-acceptance of another deal.
- The measures suggested lie somewhere inbetween the former Greek proposal and the EU demands. Trust me on this, I have compared the lists, something few of the media care to do. There are two critical points taht we scimped on,a nd that is good.
- There may be somethign to be gained. The new deal will (probably) be a 3 year long one and (maybe) there will be a dept restucturing.
- There is a growing sentiment among the NO voters that feel betrayed and blame Tsipras for capitulating. But I doubt most of them would stand beside him if he chose to go all the way.
- There is also commotion inside the governing alliance. Even a young gongresswoman of Syriza was seen sobbing unable to cope with her existensial crisis, a leftist voting for hard core neoliberal measures.

Personally,
- The day was a repeat of last friday. Had a large beer in the bar a friend DJs, then off I went to the ATM next door.
I happened to two guys from work today and learned some of the details of my firing. It is blatantly obvious i fell victim to the general manager which must have seen me as a threat. Nough said.
- I am tying loose ends now I have the chance and time. I am also scheduling a camp out with friends in my lair.
- And after popular demand (2 members) I will admit I have already made a draft of a possible book.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: r_w on July 10, 2015, 07:48:38 PM
Make that three members  ;D

We will see if this can can be kicked down the road any further. 
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Josh the Aspie on July 11, 2015, 12:52:55 AM
Greekman,

Regarding the bit about learning the language, have you considered http://livemocha.com/ ?  It's free, and while I presume most adults have thousands of things stacked up to try to do if they are ever laid off, this would seem like a way to get a foot up on learning the language of any country you might want to move to for economic reasons.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Coctailer on July 11, 2015, 07:28:34 AM
I was thinking of buying a small house in Greece. Maybe time to start looking again for bargains.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on July 11, 2015, 10:06:11 AM
with the way things are it is douptfull prices and taxation will rise.
Pre-new deal there was the prospect of lowering the assumbed value of properties. this is the value the state assumes your propeerty worths, and calculates taxes based on this.
You gonna pay hefty taxes (considering) when buying your house, so it would be wise to wait for that official value drop.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: nkawtg on July 12, 2015, 08:58:59 AM
I thought I'd inject a little levity into the German vs. Greek discussion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ur5fGSBsfq8
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Carl on July 12, 2015, 09:16:19 AM
I thought I'd inject a little levity into the German vs. Greek discussion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ur5fGSBsfq8

Breathtaking action! Edge of you seat action!
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: chad on July 12, 2015, 10:13:14 AM
I thought I'd inject a little levity into the German vs. Greek discussion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ur5fGSBsfq8

 :rofl:
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on July 12, 2015, 11:13:41 AM
lough all you want, the method works!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is precisely how we took the Euro 2004 soccer cup..In all the critical matches we were loittering with hard defense and we scored the only goal of the match 1-2 minutes before the end.
Strangely enough we had a German coach  :excited:

edit: I am placing this here for a specific reason.
That spirit in epople there is no more. It ahs been squashed by the crisis. I do not knwo how it can be, we have faced worst situations before. And that kind of broken people cannot stand up to their feet easily. Unless there is great leader or a cause to drag them to glory
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZDHLltOeVc
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Polar Bear on July 12, 2015, 03:31:49 PM
A leader needs to give hope.  Even the chance of hope will change everything.

My thoughts and prayers are still with you.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on July 12, 2015, 03:47:05 PM
Sunday, July the 12th

- The day's negotiations with the EU were marked by the Germany and its lackeys' hardline of expelling Greece the Euro, That has scared the countries west of the Rhine and south of the Alps and are now rejecting the idea, asking for leniency for Greece. Maybe they are smelling the bloody knife reaching them?
- People in Greece are angry on Schaeuble's proposals for leaving the Euro and the 50bn worth of state assets being trnsfered to a company in Luxemburg to be liquidated. This is the exact method that was used in East Germany during its integration. Rumor is that Schaeuble, and Stournaras (the former Greek finance minister) are in the board.
- I noticed increased attendance in the ATM ritual, maybe people are alarmed of a pending exit of the Euro?

- I am electronically transfering money to two other empty accounts. Now I can withdraw three times the 60 fix.
- I have partialy activated my last hour plan in stockign supplies. I must maintain as much cash as i can so I will dedicate a very limited budget to some extra medications.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: TheRetiredRancher on July 12, 2015, 04:36:32 PM
I think Angela Merkle now wants to treat Greece like the US government treats a bankrupt city. Put a court appointed conservator over the mayor and city council. The city cannot spend any money without the approval of the independent conservator. The city has little or no authority to do anything besides keeping minimal government services and humanitarian services semi functional (see Detroit as an example). The conservator evaluates everything of value owned by the city and decides what is absolutely necessary. Anything not on that list gets sold off to pay off as much of the debt as possible. The difference is in US bankruptcy the creditors do take a haircut once everything has been liquidated the rest of the debt is written off. In greeces case they seem to want the liquidation without the creditors eating the rest. Instead the debt just goes on accruing interest. Greece seems to gain nothing from having a conservator.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: endurance on July 12, 2015, 06:40:53 PM
I think Angela Merkle now wants to treat Greece like the US government treats a bankrupt city. Put a court appointed conservator over the mayor and city council. The city cannot spend any money without the approval of the independent conservator. The city has little or no authority to do anything besides keeping minimal government services and humanitarian services semi functional (see Detroit as an example). The conservator evaluates everything of value owned by the city and decides what is absolutely necessary. Anything not on that list gets sold off to pay off as much of the debt as possible. The difference is in US bankruptcy the creditors do take a haircut once everything has been liquidated the rest of the debt is written off. In greeces case they seem to want the liquidation without the creditors eating the rest. Instead the debt just goes on accruing interest. Greece seems to gain nothing from having a conservator.
...but losing sovereignty and self-determination, the two things that make a state truly independent.

Nothing about this situation is good.  Hopefully this will eliminate the lust for unified currencies, like a common BRIC currency or the Amero that was being talked about a few years ago.  When a country has its own currency, it can print its way into inflation and to pay off debt; that's a lender's inherent risk.  When currencies are united, well, this is what you get.  Wealthy countries growth outpace the smaller economies and the poor get poorer, resentments build and suffering grows.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on July 12, 2015, 11:43:26 PM
TRR, this is such a nice example. It almost happened, the former goverment had conceeded to techincal comitees in each ministry and it an overlord (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans-Joachim_Fuchtel) was almost put in place.The new goverment removed al of them and also ousted the central IMF-ECB-EU commitee that were housed (lavishly) and protected (blackhawk) in the expense of the Greek budget

BTW....picture of the EU negotiations circa 2283 shot with a timemachine
https://scontent-mxp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtp1/v/t1.0-9/11703070_10206133740415514_5521149819345936376_n.jpg
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: FreeLancer on July 13, 2015, 02:12:19 AM
The parties have agreed to the bailout conditions, and it looks like the EU may avoid a Grexit, after all:  http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2015/07/13/world/europe/ap-eu-greece-bailout.html (http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2015/07/13/world/europe/ap-eu-greece-bailout.html)

I still don't get the point of the referendum.  Is there really much difference between the austerity measures the Greeks overwhelmingly voted no to a week ago and what they've now agreed to accept in order to get this bailout?
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on July 13, 2015, 03:25:29 AM
there was a critical difference, MAGNAMOUNT for me, but we shall see what it becomes of it....
Among them http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-12/greek-choice-hand-over-sovereignty-germany-or-take-five-year-euro-time-out
 is the
Sustainability of pension system and to a certain extend the healthcare system

what that means is that the pension system must change concept and give pensions according to its proceeds without goverment subsidies.
BUT
- the pension system is already designed to be tri-party finance (worker/employer/state)
- the pension and healthcare system suffered the second dept haircut, since they saw their reserves haircuted (401K alert!)
- there are as many pensioners in Greece as work able people, and that has to do MAINLY with the aging of the population
- there is a huge unemployment, especially considering for the young (60+%) which are the pension system reserves
- there is still a huge percentage of undeclared labor in Greece, ergo no proceeds for the system ( i was workign with half of my pay declared, the rest under the table)
in short the system cannot fund itself even if it wished to.

If this clause is enforced then we will see pensions cut to 200-300 euros which is twice what the average elder pays for meds, or the price of leasing a small apartment, or what he spends to put food on the table. (these sum to about 8000Euros to just live by)
And hospitals will have to send half the patients back.

Title: Re: Greece
Post by: endurance on July 13, 2015, 05:20:14 AM
There has never been a better example of why a nationalized retirement system is a bad idea. While social security in the US is in danger at the horizon of 15 years or so, most people know that and if they can afford to, they save accordingly. If those savings are ever nationalized, we are doomed to the same fate.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on July 13, 2015, 06:31:46 AM
in the case of Greece (and much more Europe) such a change would be like puting the car in reverse while it is rolling downhill.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: bigbear on July 13, 2015, 07:07:19 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/live/greek-debt-crisis-live-updates/comparing-greeces-new-proposal-with-the-creditors-previous-offer/

The differences between the 'old' (No vote) plan and the 'new' (Tsipras) plan is small.  I guess the biggest thing is 1% extra tax the Tsipras plan places on businesses.  The rest of it seems to be reshuffling the chairs a bit.

Both agreements would have led to more oversight.  Both would have led to better controls for tax evasion, pension reforms, and tourism taxation.

I'm not an expert on the situation, but from what I've read... I'd think the main goal should be closing the tax evasion 'loopholes' (i.e. the declared labor pool increases).
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Carl on July 13, 2015, 08:13:27 AM
But any tax on business is just a tax on consumers as no business absorbs taxes.
This answer sounds like a bitter pill, not that those responsible don't deserve it,but
the average persons suffer from the mismanagement of those in charge, in my opinion.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Chemsoldier on July 13, 2015, 09:02:43 AM
But any tax on business is just a tax on consumers as no business absorbs taxes.
This answer sounds like a bitter pill, not that those responsible don't deserve it,but
the average persons suffer from the mismanagement of those in charge, in my opinion.
Heck, even if the business absorbed the taxes, the business is a consumer also.  Even if the business was going to park the money somewhere instead of spending it, that money would have been in a vehicle where someone would have loaned it to someone else.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: endurance on July 13, 2015, 09:27:11 AM
But any tax on business is just a tax on consumers as no business absorbs taxes.
This answer sounds like a bitter pill, not that those responsible don't deserve it,but
the average persons suffer from the mismanagement of those in charge, in my opinion.
I suspect that its probably a matter of control.  Which is easier to tax, 11.5 million people or 75,000 businesses that already are registered and have to keep books on transactions?  In a system that has been gamed for decades, they probably just see this as a matter of expediency rather than a matter of fairness.  Of course that system will be gamed, too, but it's easier than trying to go after payrolls that are already split between above board and under the table.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: BriGy86 on July 13, 2015, 09:33:17 AM
Cracking down on tax evasion doesn't address the core problem either (Over spending.) Unless overspending gets addressed, even 100% compliance wont be enough.

It's like blaming the victim for not giving the thief enough money.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: endurance on July 13, 2015, 09:38:15 AM
Cracking down on tax evasion doesn't address the core problem either (Over spending.) Unless overspending gets addressed, even 100% compliance wont be enough.

It's like blaming the victim for not giving the thief enough money.

It's the endless cycle of politicians over-promising and under-delivering.  They promise the world, people adjust their expectations, then they feel entitled to something that was a pipedream in the first place.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on July 13, 2015, 09:58:55 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/live/greek-debt-crisis-live-updates/comparing-greeces-new-proposal-with-the-creditors-previous-offer/
The differences between the 'old' (No vote) plan and the 'new' (Tsipras) plan is small.  I guess the biggest thing is 1% extra tax the Tsipras plan places on businesses.  The rest of it seems to be reshuffling the chairs a bit.

yes, there are only small differences.
Also at the moment I cannot see if the Sustainability of pension system I talked above has passed.
there are soem vital differecnes though regarding timeline
first, it is a 3 year long deal, not a 3-4 month one as it usually happened. That will allow workign time for the goverment to reform
second, we have gained promiss for dept restructuring (repayment timeline)
also we have changes to the measures timeline. Most will not happen instantly which is the fair thing to do.
for example
Farmers are to taxed like businessmen.
thus farm they were taxed 13% on the gross income. Now they will be taxed with 29% on their NET income.
this means gross income minus expenses, but we are in the end of the farming season and farmers cannot have IRS notarized receipts for past expenses (fuel, agrochemicals, labor payments etc).
So they would be taxed more than they would deserve. especially since they are to prepay the 2016s tax too. (crazy isn't it?).

tsipras was beaten on the battlefield. but the new deal is like having the Red Cross to care for the wounded.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: nkawtg on July 13, 2015, 10:12:09 AM
It sounds like they're rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on July 13, 2015, 10:18:08 AM
and the captain is putting on a new uniform
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: BriGy86 on July 13, 2015, 10:32:42 AM
It sounds like they're rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

My thoughts too.  Part of what makes these crisis' so bad are the durations.  If they get dragged out, the problems are only compounded.  Like our financial issues in 08.  We could have crashed and started building back up shortly after.  Most prepared people would have been able to get by on 3-9 months unemployment. But it was dragged out and still is to a degree 7 years later.  It seems the crony's can last the longest... And perhaps that's the entire point of their decisions.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: bigbear on July 13, 2015, 01:28:32 PM
But any tax on business is just a tax on consumers as no business absorbs taxes.

Economically true, politically false.  A tax on businesses is an easy pill for the populists to swallow.

Also at the moment I cannot see if the Sustainability of pension system I talked above has passed.

...

tsipras was beaten on the battlefield. but the new deal is like having the Red Cross to care for the wounded.

Agreed that the pension system is a huge issue.  But IMO, it's still is secondary.  A democratically elected government of a socio-political system based on tax avoidance is like having a welfare state with open boarders.  Addressing that imbalance in some way should be the priority. 

Maybe I'm giving Tsipras too much credit (and I know I'm going against everything that I've seen reported by those in the know better than me), but I wonder if he knew what he was doing.  Pushing for the 'no' vote created an US vs. THEM mentality.  It also showed the ECB that Tsipras is in tune with the populous.  I think he knew that if the deal was his deal it would be easier for the Greek people to go along with.  But if it was an externally originated deal, then there would be greater political unrest.  Sure it's a political gamble, but I can see an argument made that it's better for the nation-state that it played out this way.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: nkawtg on July 13, 2015, 01:30:48 PM
Just an aside, as long as Greece is in the EuroZone it will never know Sovereignty.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Chemsoldier on July 13, 2015, 02:56:10 PM
Just an aside, as long as Greece is in the EuroZone it will never know Sovereignty.
At the risk of thread digression, isnt the nasty position some Eurozone countries in as applicable to certain states in the US where inflation, cost of living and poor job prospects in an area can make it hard to get by?  Theoretically wouldnt some states be better off if they could devalue their currency (if they had one) for instance?
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: FreeLancer on July 13, 2015, 03:15:52 PM
At the risk of thread digression, isnt the nasty position some Eurozone countries in as applicable to certain states in the US where inflation, cost of living and poor job prospects in an area can make it hard to get by?  Theoretically wouldnt some states be better off if they could devalue their currency (if they had one) for instance?

I think the fact that US states share a common language, making it easy to emigrate to better states, helps. 
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on July 13, 2015, 04:08:50 PM
well Varoufakis has covered this in his book the Global Minotaur.
It is all a question of trade surpluses and their redistirbution. In the US surpluses and deficits between the states are redistributed by the federal goverment.
The federal goverment of Europe does not redistribute the surpluses.

I was also state that tsipras has the chance to remain in history if he takes care of -not only- tax evasion, but also of trusts' control on the greek economy, improving the efficiency of the state, caring for just participation on the onerous measures etc etc..

on the Greek front,

Monday, July the 13th

- There is a huge commotion within the governing party and alliance. The left-most wing of Syriza is objecting on the compromise (capitulation), some members say that will vote against and resign, some will vote For and resign etc.
- Much to the opposition's delight there are talks for a new contigency goverment. I think Tsipras should stay firm on tryign to govern on a marginal majority and force the opposition either to comply or drive him out of office on a such critical moment.
- People have gotten angrier by the "capitulation", cos now they know that the EU wants to further its agenda First.

personally,
- I am shifting focus from the Euro exit measures to the VAT increase measures. that is store some more food (and maybe booze) to benefit from the hike in prices.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: mnotlyon on July 14, 2015, 07:56:47 AM

personally,
- I am shifting focus from the Euro exit measures to the VAT increase measures. that is store some more food (and maybe booze) to benefit from the hike in prices.

Are food and other supplies still easy to get if you have cash?
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Bonnieblue2A on July 14, 2015, 08:15:42 AM
Bill Still had an interesting take on Greece's capitulation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6Z-JM4ZITQ
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Bonnieblue2A on July 14, 2015, 09:59:57 AM
EU discussions on Greek debt continues to be contentious.
https://youtu.be/XfwRjDFdDVQ
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: bigbear on July 14, 2015, 12:18:36 PM
 ::)  Well now that we have that settled...   ;) 
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/greece-pledges-rid-tax-evasion-150445104.html
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: FreeLancer on July 14, 2015, 02:10:46 PM
Around the time of the first EU bailout, a Greek told me, in regards to tax evasion, "We Greeks were already skilled in the ways of corruption, but under the Turks we elevated it to a high art."
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: osubuckeye4 on July 14, 2015, 02:15:08 PM
::)  Well now that we have that settled...   ;) 
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/greece-pledges-rid-tax-evasion-150445104.html (http://finance.yahoo.com/news/greece-pledges-rid-tax-evasion-150445104.html)

My favorite part of the article is that they estimate there is $10 billion in unclaimed taxes. They then cite that there is $320 billion owed to creditors.
 
Yet the popular idea on how to get out of this mess is "eliminate tax loopholes".
 
Right, and where does the other $310 billion come from?

Plus, a lot of the loopholes they cite aren't going to "fix" anything if they are closed. A plumber cutting someone a braek by waiving (and then not reporting) tax fees, isn't lost tax revenue. That revenue is still in the pocket of the citizen that possesses it... that citizen is still going to buy food/pay their mortgage and Greece will still get their cut.
 
This is such a mess, and it's just the tip of the iceburg in terms of debt. It will be interesting (to say the least) to watch as the other dominos/countries begin to fall.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: endurance on July 14, 2015, 02:29:01 PM

My favorite part of the article is that they estimate there is $10 billion in unclaimed taxes. They then cite that there is $320 billion owed to creditors.
 
Yet the popular idea on how to get out of this mess is "eliminate tax loopholes".
 
Right, and where does the other $310 billion come from?

Plus, a lot of the loopholes they cite aren't going to "fix" anything if they are closed. A plumber cutting someone a braek by waiving (and then not reporting) tax fees, isn't lost tax revenue. That revenue is still in the pocket of the citizen that possesses it... that citizen is still going to buy food/pay their mortgage and Greece will still get their cut.
 
This is such a mess, and it's just the tip of the iceburg in terms of debt. It will be interesting (to say the least) to watch as the other dominos/countries begin to fall.
The same could be said for most countries regarding the revenue vs total debt. It's never going to be paid off. They just need the interest payment to be a dollar less than the revenue and they'll call it good. Right now they can't even that much of a breakeven... Not that the US can either. The last time we were paying more toward our debt than interest alone was under Clinton.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: osubuckeye4 on July 14, 2015, 03:07:27 PM
The same could be said for most countries regarding the revenue vs total debt. It's never going to be paid off. They just need the interest payment to be a dollar less than the revenue and they'll call it good. Right now they can't even that much of a breakeven... Not that the US can either. The last time we were paying more toward our debt than interest alone was under Clinton.

Yup, that's why I included that last sentence (tip of the iceburg)

Many of these journalists and politicians are pointing/wagging their finger at the Greeks, and refusing to look in the mirror and come to terms with the fact that their country is on the exact same path.
 
It's all so absurd, I can't help but continue to watch it like I would watch a fire (very) slowly approaching a fireworks emporium.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: FreeLancer on July 14, 2015, 03:18:04 PM
The same could be said for most countries regarding the revenue vs total debt.

But where's the tipping point?  Japan has a 230% debt to GDP ratio, well over twice the US, and you're not hearing about them descending into financial chaos.  How much is too much?
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: endurance on July 14, 2015, 04:37:06 PM
But where's the tipping point?  Japan has a 230% debt to GDP ratio, well over twice the US, and you're not hearing about them descending into financial chaos.  How much is too much?
As long as most of Japan's debt is being purchased by their own people who are willing to settle for near zero interest for the sake of "security" it could go on for a long time, but perhaps not forever.  The primary reason the Japanese population buys these bonds is because they plan on using them in retirement.  The only problem is, when they retire there will be fewer people in the work force than when they were purchased, thus fewer people to service the debt.  Two solutions to that are:  Work longer or expect to take a % haircut on what you've stashed away. 

Japan's economy has been sick for twenty years now.  Deflationary sick with zero interest, flat stock market, and rising debt with a shrinking and aging population.  That could well be our future and while not Armageddon, it's not something any of us would wish to live if there were a better alternative available.  Maybe that's what we should shoot for, ending with a whimper rather than a bang.

Again, Greece's biggest problem is being tied to the Euro and not being able to print their way out of this mess.  Inflation might suck, but in many ways it beats losing your national sovereignty to Germany, et al.

Title: Re: Greece
Post by: FreeLancer on July 14, 2015, 05:32:40 PM
Japan's economy has been sick for twenty years now.  Deflationary sick with zero interest, flat stock market, and rising debt with a shrinking and aging population.  That could well be our future and while not Armageddon, it's not something any of us would wish to live if there were a better alternative available.  Maybe that's what we should shoot for, ending with a whimper rather than a bang.

I agree, Japan shows us just how far governments can kick the can, potentially two or three generations down the road.


Again, Greece's biggest problem is being tied to the Euro and not being able to print their way out of this mess.  Inflation might suck, but in many ways it beats losing your national sovereignty to Germany, et al.

Which is why I find it so weird that Greece, despite the referendum's resounding rejection of the EU's austerity terms, is now groveling before their northern barbarian masters with their hands out.  Apparently the relatively comfortable life as an indentured state beats the freedom of a chaotic hand-to-mouth existence.

Title: Re: Greece
Post by: endurance on July 14, 2015, 05:48:12 PM
...
Which is why I find it so weird that Greece, despite the referendum's resounding rejection of the EU's austerity terms, is now groveling before their northern barbarian masters with their hands out.  Apparently the relatively comfortable life as an indentured state beats the freedom of a chaotic hand-to-mouth existence.
I think they're worried about the challenges of keeping trade moving if they have to create a new currency.  I can't imagine it would be a smooth transition and they're already struggling with shortages from Greekman's reports in medicines and other items.  Energy is going to be a bear.  And then there's the fact that nobody is going to loan them money for a while.

In the end, from the talk on NPR it sounds like the agreement has a very challenging time ahead of it in parliament... and keeping control of the government.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Bonnieblue2A on July 14, 2015, 06:25:43 PM
Greek PM Tsipras: I don't believe in this deal from vindictive lenders

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/07/14/greek-latest-political-wrangling-begins-after-deal.html

There is an interesting point in one of the linked Tweets in the article about Greece paying private markets but defaulting to IMF.  This leads to the question as to whom is the primary lender, the private markets or the IMF?  Did Greece give the global banking Santa (LaGuard) coal in her stocking?  If so, does this set the precedent for countries like Spain and France to do the same in the not so distant future as their debt unravels?

We live in interesting times.   Hang in their Greekman!

Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Josh the Aspie on July 14, 2015, 11:32:35 PM
I have read articles that say both that the US paid out 1B to help enable the Greece deal, and that the US would be on the hook for a large amount of the loans defaulted on by the IMF.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on July 15, 2015, 12:27:08 AM
the IMF loan was not paid yet (there is a one month waiting/no-action period), beacause of lack of liquidity and the expectation of a deal, that happened in the end.
The japanese bond had to eb apdi cos that would be defaulting to a private endity. Then comes the IMF, then the ECB and then the EU (loans by individual members).

Whatever shortages appeared have been straightened out. Maybe because of transactions started being doen electronically and maybe because there was a deal with the foreign pharmas not stoping deliveries.
Regarding food it seems that the makers have first materials and stock for at least a year.
The supermarket run hit the flour and sugar mostly, especially sugar than it is mostly imported. (but serious shortages happened in SM taht serve a lot of people)

Regarding tax, you are all, by and large, correct but I will stress one thing from that article. It is the citizen defence/payback for an inneficient state. i.e. the small time businessman is hit by a 43% percent in taxes, social security, pension funding and other fees.
That is close to Sweden's 50% taxation, but State services to the citizen are not even close to a third of Sweden's.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on July 15, 2015, 01:57:09 AM
- People in Greece are angry on Schaeuble's proposals for leaving the Euro and the 50bn worth of state assets being trnsfered to a company in Luxemburg to be liquidated. This is the exact method that was used in East Germany during its integration. Rumor is that Schaeuble, and Stournaras (the former Greek finance minister) are in the board.

well well....
the bank that will be involved in the liquidation of 50bn worth of Greek assets is KfW
looky looky..
https://www.kfw.de/KfW-Group/About-KfW/Vorstand-und-Gremien/Verwaltungsrat-und-seine-Aussch%C3%BCsse/
Chairman of the Board of Supervisory Directors:
Dr Wolfgang Schäuble
Federal Minister of Finance
Deputy Chairman:
Sigmar Gabriel
Federal Minister of Economic Affairs and Energy
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Cedar on July 15, 2015, 12:58:09 PM
Greek protests today. Greek protesters throw petrol bombs at police close to parliament, police respond with tear gas.

LIVE FEED
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sk5bBCs_kU

(http://pzfeed.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/CJ-ZSc-UkAEhGJK-300x156.jpg)

Not that most of us can understand, but
LIVE: Greek Parliament to discuss bailout deal before lawmakers debate the bill
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBzcYZjvxTY

Cedar
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: nkawtg on July 15, 2015, 01:19:31 PM
This is how you piss off lots of people.
Have a vote for the people to chose A or B
People chose A by a large majority
Government ignores the people and go with B
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: TheRetiredRancher on July 15, 2015, 01:30:03 PM
It sounds like most of the rioters are young males. The main demographic that voted in Tsipras. They don't see any employment in their future in the EU. Civil servants are on strike also. I think the civil unrest is just barely starting.

Stay safe Greekman, I am glad you don't live in Athens!
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on July 15, 2015, 03:50:39 PM
NOTICE. Thes are not the regular protesters. The regular oens disperse when the incdents happened.
The are hard core anarchists.
Which for the past years happen to cause trouble when key decission are to be taken.
Strange games ar being played. In 2007 it was documented thta among them were people from Balkan countries.
In 2010 there wa the man with the purple umbrela, givng directions.
Now some of them are wearing gloves...
I do nto like conspiracy theories but in this case I am VERY suspicious.

Wensday, July the 15th

- I am at 100% of my preparedness plan. I have doen all I could. Now I am only scared of a serious illness or having a car accident.
- I had a talk with some different people today, most of them well-to-do. Clueless of the posibble outcomes unless it is about their money. They also had a spending spree in the eve oft he referendum. One even had phoned the other asking what do pople buy in monetary crises. Along with that reaction comes they all resorted to a blame game and far worst ti seems they are really consuming  the media propaganda.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: TheRetiredRancher on July 15, 2015, 05:15:00 PM
That is interesting Greekman, but scary. I hope that no one goes overboard like Mr. Princip before WW I. Professional agitators are a bad mix with all of the blame throwing going on.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Smurf Hunter on July 15, 2015, 05:48:01 PM
That is interesting Greekman, but scary. I hope that no one goes overboard like Mr. Princip before WW I. Professional agitators are a bad mix with all of the blame throwing going on.

While there's risk of severe civil unrest, I don't see any nationalistic tensions that could learn to war between nation states.  Then again, maybe all of Europe will financially collapse and a series of tribal war lords will take over.   :popcorn:
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: The Spartan Dad on July 15, 2015, 05:51:43 PM
Greekman, do you think Golden Dawn either has a presence in the riots or has the potential to use the general turmoil to gain additional electoral votes? I hope they are not able to use a Nationalism surge as their predecessors did. I cannot find much mention of them in the media any more even though they made a fairly sizable percentage of Greece-related news just a year ago.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: FreeLancer on July 15, 2015, 07:14:09 PM
Despite the vocal opposition and rioting in the streets, the Greek parliament has capitulated to the EU demands.  Whether it's a later day Versailles Treaty, or not, the deal is done.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Carl on July 15, 2015, 07:20:03 PM
Does ANYONE have confidence that Greece will stick to the plan and have success this time?
I think it only delayed the inevitable...the hole is too deep to crawl out of...
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on July 16, 2015, 12:13:54 AM
I do not think that the depth of the hole matters.
What it matters are implementing the "reforms" partly, and having the power and will to change all the evils in society. Take taxevation for instance. it costs us 11bn yearly which is the sum of this measures package.

Quote
Greekman, do you think Golden Dawn either has a presence in the riots or has the potential to use the general turmoil to gain additional electoral votes? I hope they are not able to use a Nationalism surge as their predecessors did. I cannot find much mention of them in the media any more even though they made a fairly sizable percentage of Greece-related news just a year ago.

Well the media actively boycots GD. But yesterday i happened to a speech of them in the parlaiment proceeding live broadcast by the state TV, and they are bashing the political system claiming honor and patriotism for them. With the sorry state the rest of the parties are, it is only them and the Greek communist party that are speaking solidly and repeatedly their own uncompromised view. Recent elections show that GD has lost its impulse voters but they have solidified to a good enough percent, chipped for the traditional rightwing voters. But large enough  that NO right wing formation will be able to govern again.
Also GD represents a niche of the right wing that is still friendly to the military junta of the 67-74. These people voted for the right wing partytill now, cos they had nowhere else to go. Now they know they can express themselves indepedently of other political  formations and have solidified their vote....Sorry, but they are here to stay, one way (GD) or another (maybe a new party).

Putting most of its gongressmen in prison under false accusations slowed the developemtns and its voters are now keepign a low profile. (I know cos I have excluded such people from my FB page based on ther profile and psotings etc. But over the last year I have requests by the same people that have removed anything regarding GD from their account)
Important: While i do not support or like GD, it would be unfair not to admit wrong doings. i.e. The second in command was imprisoned for "owning arms with the intend to supply a crime organization" Said arms was his ONE registered hunting shotgun.
Such accusations will collapse from day one of the trial, and then they will be made martyrs of their "struggle"
(in most cases they are charged with participating in a criminal organization (under the organazied crime law) and this must first be proven to exist, and then their actions be judged).
Let alone that most have been released now, cos it is past the time limit one can be detained pending trial.
Nice work mr Samaras...
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: The Spartan Dad on July 16, 2015, 05:49:33 AM
That's an interesting analysis Greekman and provides more real information about the situation than I've found in any media source. Thanks for taking the time to write it out.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on July 16, 2015, 10:13:21 AM
another account of...
http://www.itstactical.com/centcom/news/greek-debt-crisis-caught-between-the-1st-and-3rd-world/
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: bigbear on July 16, 2015, 12:34:12 PM
Thanks Greekman!  Your account is great.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on July 16, 2015, 12:40:04 PM
hmm the latter is not mine...
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: FreeLancer on July 16, 2015, 01:44:16 PM
another account of...
http://www.itstactical.com/centcom/news/greek-debt-crisis-caught-between-the-1st-and-3rd-world/

That's a great article.  It hints at what I've suspected, that Greece is stuck between East and West in its thinking, and First and Third World in its economy and government. 

In retrospect, I think it could be argued that the Greeks lacked the necessary Western mindset to be a viable partner in the EU and that they were admitted more for sentimental and historical reasons, rather than the true realities on the ground.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Smurf Hunter on July 17, 2015, 08:45:07 AM

In retrospect, I think it could be argued that the Greeks lacked the necessary Western mindset to be a viable partner in the EU and that they were admitted more for sentimental and historical reasons, rather than the true realities on the ground.

Seems arguments could be made like that about Texas or Florida.  Neither really conform to the ways of the rest of the US.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Carl on July 17, 2015, 09:31:21 AM
Seems arguments could be made like that about Texas or Florida.  Neither really conform to the ways of the rest of the US.

Through history great minds and ideas were always from non-conformists....
Don't mess with Texas...Florida,OK mess with them a little  8)
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Chemsoldier on July 17, 2015, 10:33:50 AM
another account of...
http://www.itstactical.com/centcom/news/greek-debt-crisis-caught-between-the-1st-and-3rd-world/
Great article +1
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: FreeLancer on July 17, 2015, 05:11:32 PM
Seems arguments could be made like that about Texas or Florida.  Neither really conform to the ways of the rest of the US.

Except both have managed to function well as members of the U.S. for at least 150 yrs.

Greece cooked the books only a generation ago in order to benefit from the euro and most of Europe turned a blind eye.  Greece is as corrupt and dysfunctional as the rest of the Balkans, but the only one let into the eurozone and they're already staring at their third bailout.

I don't think you can really blame them, though, it's the consequence of that whole region being under Ottoman rule for centuries.  They're experience was dramatically different over the last several hundred years than the rest of Europe, so the fact that they have less in common with Europe than they do with Turkey isn't really all that surprising.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: TexDaddy on July 17, 2015, 05:28:43 PM
...Texas or Florida.  Neither really conform to the ways of the rest of the US.
And we plan to keep it that way.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on July 19, 2015, 12:37:18 AM
we have another vote ahead of us, but things have died down to the former "normal".
The media are filled with discussions on the effects of the new measures, but I wonder if anyone is paying real attention.

personaaly I have no new things to report. Hence the lack of updates for my diary...
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: r_w on July 19, 2015, 05:23:59 AM
The lull between the first squall line and the real storm?
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: David in MN on July 19, 2015, 07:34:00 AM
Has anyone else been following the Greek debt story on Freedomain Radio? Stef's coming down really hard on Greece and the numbers are brutal. I've always been a believer that the bank takes the haircut (you lent to a deadbeat, you suffer for it) but I'm getting swayed that the debt in Greece stems from unrealistic social programs.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: artephius on July 19, 2015, 08:12:41 AM
another account of...
http://www.itstactical.com/centcom/news/greek-debt-crisis-caught-between-the-1st-and-3rd-world/

That was a great article!

This whole situation has really reinforced for me the belief that banks are really not a safe place for your money. It's a little scary how many people just trust that their money will always be safe and accessible there no matter what happens and make no contingency plans whatsoever.

I could certainly see the same thing happening in the US eventually, although I suspect there would be a LOT more rioting and violence here as a result. Even if they did allow a daily withdrawl, I doubt it would be safe to go near an atm if it happened here. Cash is king!
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: chad on July 19, 2015, 08:46:57 AM
Has anyone else been following the Greek debt story on Freedomain Radio? Stef's coming down really hard on Greece and the numbers are brutal. I've always been a believer that the bank takes the haircut (you lent to a deadbeat, you suffer for it) but I'm getting swayed that the debt in Greece stems from unrealistic social programs.


Just tracked it down and started listening...
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on July 19, 2015, 11:52:17 AM
I am listening to the third podcast of him.

There are soem isues with hsi perspective.
1. he misses the larger picture AND some of the details.(i.e. there is a reason that the number of doctors in the state hospitals  is big. Also Greek peole DO pay for hospital services. Once by their contributions in the ehalthcare system and twice they pay part of the bill on the counter)
2. He has the perspective that everything in Europe is left from socialistic. In thruth there SI a capitalistc right wing system, more akin to teh Obama/Democratsc capitalism. Do not forget that our perspective is radically different because our societies developed very differently. The US was botrn from a revolution and individualsim, the European democracies are descentants of the feudal monarchies.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on July 20, 2015, 04:02:59 AM
an interesting read...
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-18/was-greece-set-fail
not included in the article.
- charges are expected to turn into arrests these days
- ex PM Papandreou brother profited with bond trading before the dept announcement
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: David in MN on July 20, 2015, 07:06:27 AM
I am listening to the third podcast of him.

There are soem isues with hsi perspective.
1. he misses the larger picture AND some of the details.(i.e. there is a reason that the number of doctors in the state hospitals  is big. Also Greek peole DO pay for hospital services. Once by their contributions in the ehalthcare system and twice they pay part of the bill on the counter)
2. He has the perspective that everything in Europe is left from socialistic. In thruth there SI a capitalistc right wing system, more akin to teh Obama/Democratsc capitalism. Do not forget that our perspective is radically different because our societies developed very differently. The US was botrn from a revolution and individualsim, the European democracies are descentants of the feudal monarchies.

I've come to the conclusion that health care is one big glass house and nobody should so much as pick up a stone. Bear in mind in the USA Steve Jobs got a new liver despite pancreatic cancer and Dick Cheney got a new heart... Healthcare flows to the rich and politically connected here.

What I found damning was the cost of the Olympics and the early retirement. I'm sympathetic to the fact that Greece proper has been "under the thumb" of a few empires going back quite a way and slavery doesn't develop a good work ethic. But the deficit spending seems out of control.

- ex PM Papandreou brother profited with bond trading before the dept announcement

That would be legal in the US where our government is allowed to "insider trade". Make no mistake, I see the US tight on Greece's heels here. They got a beach volleyball stadium while we got a F22. And China has empty cities... I can't help but feel that the people of Greece are the canary in the coal mine for the rest of us.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Cedar on July 20, 2015, 08:37:13 AM
Just In:
- Greece repays International Monetary Fund, clearing arrears. The Greek government has repaid the International Monetary Fund (IMF) 2 billion euros ($2.17 billion) to clear its arrears, IMF spokesman Gerry Rice says in an emailed statement. "Greece is therefore no longer in arrears to the IMF," Rice said. "The Fund stands ready to continue assisting Greece in its efforts to return to financial stability and growth." Monday's payment was made possible thanks to a 7.16 billion euros ($7.77 billion) short-term loan approved by the European Union on Friday.

Cedar
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Carl on July 20, 2015, 08:39:29 AM
Just In:
- Greece repays International Monetary Fund, clearing arrears. The Greek government has repaid the International Monetary Fund (IMF) 2 billion euros ($2.17 billion) to clear its arrears, IMF spokesman Gerry Rice says in an emailed statement. "Greece is therefore no longer in arrears to the IMF," Rice said. "The Fund stands ready to continue assisting Greece in its efforts to return to financial stability and growth." Monday's payment was made possible thanks to a 7.16 billion euros ($7.77 billion) short-term loan approved by the European Union on Friday.

Cedar

So they are floating credit cards?  Borrowing money to pay a loan is like digging deeper to get out of a hole..
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: osubuckeye4 on July 20, 2015, 09:39:48 AM
Just In:
- Greece repays International Monetary Fund, clearing arrears. The Greek government has repaid the International Monetary Fund (IMF) 2 billion euros ($2.17 billion) to clear its arrears, IMF spokesman Gerry Rice says in an emailed statement. "Greece is therefore no longer in arrears to the IMF," Rice said. "The Fund stands ready to continue assisting Greece in its efforts to return to financial stability and growth." Monday's payment was made possible thanks to a 7.16 billion euros ($7.77 billion) short-term loan approved by the European Union on Friday.

Literally borrowing from Peter to pay Paul.
 
That always turns out well...
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Cedar on July 20, 2015, 10:09:02 AM
Literally borrowing from Peter to pay Paul.
That always turns out well...

Can you name 5 countries in the world who are not doing the exact same thing?

Cedar
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: endurance on July 20, 2015, 10:40:08 AM
Can you name 5 countries in the world who are not doing the exact same thing?

Cedar
Macao
British Virgin Islands
Brunei
Liechtenstein
Palau

But that's the only five... And the US has 1/3rd of the world's soverign debt.

What could possibly go wrong?  No one is living within their means, be it financially, energy consumption or resource consumption. It's only a matter of time before this whole thing comes apart.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: osubuckeye4 on July 20, 2015, 10:41:17 AM
Can you name 5 countries in the world who are not doing the exact same thing?

Cedar

Yes, but not without sounding facetious. All the major powers/players are doing it, they just apply a bit more of a veil to it.

And all of this is not going to turn out well for anyone, I've already said that a few times though  :)
 
It's just kind of funny/sad when it's written out in such blatant terms. 
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: bigbear on July 20, 2015, 01:11:45 PM
I've come to the conclusion that health care is one big glass house and nobody should so much as pick up a stone.

I think I'm coming to the same conclusion...  Healthcare, education, and security are easy platforms to rock the vote.  Then point the finger, rinse and repeat.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: endurance on July 20, 2015, 02:58:16 PM
I think I'm coming to the same conclusion...  Healthcare, education, and security are easy platforms to rock the vote.  Then point the finger, rinse and repeat.
Don't forget social security and veterans benefits.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: nkawtg on July 20, 2015, 03:45:32 PM
And disability payments to: pedophiles, exhibitionists, kleptomaniacs, pyromaniacs, compulsive gamblers, fetishists and sadomasochists, all of which enjoy a higher level of support than diabetics.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: mountainmoma on July 20, 2015, 03:55:58 PM
And disability payments to: pedophiles, exhibitionists, kleptomaniacs, pyromaniacs, compulsive gamblers, fetishists and sadomasochists, all of which enjoy a higher level of support than diabetics.

Realy ?
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Smurf Hunter on July 20, 2015, 03:57:54 PM
And disability payments to: pedophiles, exhibitionists, kleptomaniacs, pyromaniacs, compulsive gamblers, fetishists and sadomasochists, all of which enjoy a higher level of support than diabetics.

The problem with kleptomaniacs is that it's difficult to explain puns to them, since they always take things literally.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: nkawtg on July 20, 2015, 04:09:01 PM
The problem with kleptomaniacs is that it's difficult to explain puns to them, since they always take things literally.

 :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: nkawtg on July 20, 2015, 04:10:11 PM
Realy ?
Really

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2012/01/11/financially-ruined-greece-decide-pedophiles-qualify-for-government-disability/
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Carl on July 20, 2015, 04:54:50 PM
Pedophiles? With all the bikes in that country there must be a lot of them.  :P
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: nkawtg on July 20, 2015, 05:01:12 PM
 :facepalm:
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Smurf Hunter on July 20, 2015, 05:02:14 PM
Brave new babylon.

If your deviant behavior is a mental disorder, you get government disability.  Otherwise it's just diversity and we must all embrace it.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: nkawtg on July 20, 2015, 05:04:19 PM
Scary thought Smurf
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Carl on July 20, 2015, 05:09:21 PM
Scary thought Smurf

Scary but true..
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: nkawtg on July 20, 2015, 05:10:46 PM
A butt joke Carl? On the Greek board?
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Carl on July 20, 2015, 05:15:08 PM
A butt joke Carl? On the Greek board?

Must be something stuck in my "T"s
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: nkawtg on July 20, 2015, 05:28:14 PM
Must be something stuck in my "T"s
;D
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on July 20, 2015, 11:15:55 PM
now i definetely lost you with your Ts.

Monday, July the 20th

- We had a goverment reform. Tsipras had to remove some of his ministers and replace them with others. Yet some more have declared that they would rather resign than sign the respective laws their ministries will be bringing for vote this Wensday.
- It seems we will be having a minority goverment from now on. The last vote passed with the help of the opposition since the governing coalition gave only 129 votes out of the 151 needed. Tsipras is considering new elections for September if this number falls below 120.
- It is VERY hard to guess developments cos the EU wants a larger coalition goverment, thus they would object to a new election. On the other hand they certainly do not want a leftist in power, so they will maybe create an event close to the elections to scare people towards the right. (that is my guess)
- The talking heads hint that the Capital Controls are here to stay for long. There is evidence that the same formula with Cyprus is being used, and it took them 2 years to get rid of them. While a deposits haircut may not be happening, funds in current accounts will be locked, unless one can stand in the ATM line each day for the next 12244885365466764 years.
- Today there was no line at the ATM. Either the epeople's paycheck have been excausted, or they got tired or they got used to the situatio.
- Businness took a hit, even exportings one could not bring and use money into the country. But that will be discussed another time.

Personally, I am finding a hard time to putting some sense to family members. They are not only oblivious to the general situation, they even claimed twice they will repositing back the cash!
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: FreeLancer on July 21, 2015, 12:48:34 AM
- The talking heads hint that the Capital Controls are here to stay for long.

Anybody over there using bitcoin to bypass capital controls?
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on July 21, 2015, 01:39:08 AM
there was some up in interest but nomatter what it gonna be very limited as a percentage of the general population.
Aslo what are you gonna buy bitcoins with?
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: FreeLancer on July 21, 2015, 03:05:31 AM
Aslo what are you gonna buy bitcoins with?

It's true that if you've got nothing of value to trade, either goods, currency, or services, bitcoin doesn't help.  But if you could link to an exchange via online banking through an existing Greek bank, that might be viable way to move some euros out of the grasp of the Greek financial system, maybe into another EU bank or into an entirely different sovereign currency altogether.  There's obviously risk involved, though, so you'd want to make sure you really understood what you were getting into.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on July 21, 2015, 05:07:10 AM
but we have the capital controls in place. No money comes out of the country
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: osubuckeye4 on July 21, 2015, 08:15:41 AM
but we have the capital controls in place. No money comes out of the country

Yea, this isn't an ideal time to get risky... especailly not if you did a reasonable job in prepping (which it sounds like you did).
 
I think the best thing you can do is to just stay the course, keep apprised on situations and policy changes that directly impact you, and not get too caught up in the things that are out of your control.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: FreeLancer on July 21, 2015, 12:01:43 PM
but we have the capital controls in place. No money comes out of the country

Does that mean the rest of the EU cooperates with Greece to ensure no Greek takes Euros to another EU state?  Or is it only Greece's responsibility to make sure it doesn't leave their borders?
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: David in MN on July 21, 2015, 01:23:43 PM
but we have the capital controls in place. No money comes out of the country

I'm not getting this either... I thought the whole point (claimed at least) of the Euro was to ease international transactions in Europe.

And if it's your money why can't you do as you like with it? It sounds like a 1600s mercantilist garbage idea. If money flows in but not out inflation must be knocking on the door.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Smurf Hunter on July 21, 2015, 01:34:41 PM
I don't tihnk this literally means it's legal prohibited for GreekMan to put 50 Euros in an envelope and mail it to a foreign country (Europe or otherwise).

I think controlling bank deposits is different than commerce in general.  However in most modern societies, where cash is less and less popular, the two are quickly converging.

Even in SuperMax prisons there's basic barter (commerce) taking place, so I can't imagine a modern democratic nation state hoping to control the exchange of money for goods and services.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Carl on July 21, 2015, 01:54:37 PM
Still,you must avoid dropping the soap...
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Smurf Hunter on July 21, 2015, 01:56:09 PM
Still,you must avoid dropping the soap...

That is perhaps another example of "barter".  Think you have nothing to trade for that extra helping of corn bread?  Think again...
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Carl on July 21, 2015, 01:58:51 PM
Not for me. :'(
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: TheRetiredRancher on July 21, 2015, 06:27:32 PM
I am sure that if you have physical Euros that you can take some across the border and even start a new bank account. If you have electronic euros then good luck. And remember, the USA does not let you take more than $10,000 cash out of country at a time without approval.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on July 21, 2015, 11:05:46 PM
I'm not getting this either... I thought the whole point (claimed at least) of the Euro was to ease international transactions in Europe.

And if it's your money why can't you do as you like with it? It sounds like a 1600s mercantilist garbage idea. If money flows in but not out inflation must be knocking on the door.

it used to be like that, but the bad news for the Greek economy and the Eu negotiations made people take their money out of the bank and either kepp them at home or deposit/wire them to other EU banks, Switcherand etc.
Close to the referendum the banks were already in a sorry state of liquidity (cash) and were already supported by the ECB.
The ATMs were literally churning out fresh printed uncreased notesy shipped from cash reservs in the EU.

The referendum brought the capital controls, else nothing would be left in the banks (let alone that the banks are obliged to maintain cash reserves only for the 10% of the deposits).
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on July 23, 2015, 11:23:05 AM
Ok, here goes a cuel political joke that goes around in the local webs.

Somewhere in the 30s Hitler asked God how to best conquer the world.
"With the Banks" God said
But Hitler heard "Tanks".
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: endurance on July 23, 2015, 12:46:20 PM
Almost too true to be funny.  :o
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on July 26, 2015, 03:07:38 AM
here goes....
Greek Capital Controls Lessons Learned
http://greekpreparedness.blogspot.gr/2015/07/greek-capital-controls-lessons-learned.html

I will ask for your observations and suggestons on the article. TNX
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: bcksknr on July 26, 2015, 07:05:36 AM
     With the increasingly dumbed down state of the U.S. population and the need for a steady influx of adrenaline laced headlines to penetrate the skulls of the news cycle addicted, I've noticed that much of the media has "moved on". Now that the imminent Greek crisis has seemingly passed and folks think that it never really threatened their pocketbooks anyway, we have been given a "fix" of new concerns (at least until that wears off and a substitute is rolled out, etc. etc.) It"s funny, but the cautionary tale of how our own economic future could resemble Greece's seems to have been lost in translation. Our situation would be different, of course, because there would be no one to bail us out. I guess we could always sell everything west of the Mississippi to the Chinese. We haven't already done that, have we?
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: chad on July 26, 2015, 08:37:34 AM
here goes....
Greek Capital Controls Lessons Learned
http://greekpreparedness.blogspot.gr/2015/07/greek-capital-controls-lessons-learned.html

I will ask for your observations and suggestons on the article. TNX


Thanks for the article, good info.. my takeaway is that cash in hand is king.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: bcksknr on July 26, 2015, 10:29:24 AM
     Cash can buy survival tools therefore cash is a survival tool.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on July 26, 2015, 03:53:46 PM
boy do i have some movie-grade drama for you....

The word is out at what may have been Syriza's goverment plan B.
Fearing the death grip of the ECB on the Greek banks ( that it was tighten after all with the imposition of the Capital Controls)
Syriza was planning a response since December.

That plan was tosecretely instate a parallel banking/payment system. And to implement this when/if the banks got closed.
But to have access to the necessary data without atrating the attention of the Troika lackeys in the Finistry of finance itself, the "conspirators" would hack the computer system to gain access to people's social security numbers.
then they would link these to parallel accounts were payments would be made and the respective owners would web bank manage the funds!
report article: http://www.ekathimerini.com/199945/article/ekathimerini/news/varoufakis-claims-had-approval-to-plan-parallel-banking-system
analysis article: http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/07/greeces-drachma-drama-why-planning-is-too-important-to-be-left-to-economists.html

now do you want some conspiracy theory to go this?
Where was finance minister Varoufakis working at before taking his seat in the goverment?
Valve, the online gaming company. And according to his own blog, his task there was to help them with the virtual game's point system and game's economy.
So this job may have been a cover for trying out a parallel currency to implement in Greece.
http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/economics/it-all-began-with-a-strange-email/

boy have i run out of pop corn (and rum) tonight!

Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Beetle on July 26, 2015, 10:29:02 PM
You guys have SSN's?
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on July 26, 2015, 11:16:13 PM
we have many numbers...
-SSN
-SS provider registry number
-IRS number
-ID number
-military record number
talking about some bereaucracy
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Frugal Upstate on July 28, 2015, 05:41:01 AM
here goes....
Greek Capital Controls Lessons Learned
http://greekpreparedness.blogspot.gr/2015/07/greek-capital-controls-lessons-learned.html

I will ask for your observations and suggestons on the article. TNX

I'm reading it and sharing it with my brother :)  One little format note--most people find it hard to read white text on a black background for long periods of time.  White or light background with black text may be boring but it's the easiest on the eyes. 

And thank you so much for the continuing updates.  This thread is one of the first places I stop on TSP to see what is happening.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on July 30, 2015, 03:40:25 PM
sort of an update....

Thursday, July the 30th

These days are full of developments and drama in the governing party. The leftmost vectors in it are on a cllision course with the prime minister, on the absis of the capitulation and the turn to the Drachma. Today 17 out of the 80 people in the party comittee resign.
There is the danger that the leftmosts will not support Tsipras in the next vote and that will see the fall of the goverment, and a possible descent to hell.
Strangely enough Tsipras is still enjoying popularity and support. It is said that the people will bear the new measures if he manages to fight corruption now and later put the state on its feet.

Yesterday I saw used bikes left for sale in the corner of the street. It is hard for me to believe that in our small town kids are resorting to this.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Cedar on July 30, 2015, 05:06:33 PM
Thank you for the update Greekman.

Cedar
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on July 30, 2015, 11:20:56 PM
you are wellcome Cedar...

Something that happened in a conversation I had and it is one of the major take-aways from this 6 year long situation.
It is a race and a struggle who will last the longer. Who will manage to maintain an income and cover the basics. As the situation drags and bank accounts are diminishing, one will have to plan on holding on (a.k.a. preparedness). In the end Everyone will be disastrously affected. So you've got to fortify you businness, your family and your mind.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: BriGy86 on July 31, 2015, 07:39:05 AM
That reminds me of an old joke in SCUBA diving;

"You don't need to out-swim the shark.  Just make sure you out-swim your dive buddy."

That could be applied in lots of other scenarios.  You don't need to be the fastest; just don't be last.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Carl on July 31, 2015, 08:42:14 AM
That reminds me of an old joke in SCUBA diving;

"You don't need to out-swim the shark.  Just make sure you out-swim your dive buddy."

That could be applied in lots of other scenarios.  You don't need to be the fastest; just don't be last.

Also my long standing tale of backpacking in bear country...
the best bears gun is a 25 acp (very small gun for you non gunners)
as you always walk with at least on 'buddy' and you don't need to outrun the bear....
just your buddy with the bloody leg.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: BriGy86 on July 31, 2015, 09:05:55 AM
Also my long standing tale of backpacking in bear country...
the best bears gun is a 25 acp (very small gun for you non gunners)
as you always walk with at least on 'buddy' and you don't need to outrun the bear....
just your buddy with the bloody leg.

Another good one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnwsQaTLUOE
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Cedar on August 02, 2015, 06:39:25 PM
Greek shares 'set to plunge 20%' as stock exchange reopens. The Athens Stock Exchange is set to plunge by as much as 20% on Monday when trading finally resumes after a five-week closure, traders have predicted. The bourse was shut just before the Greek government imposed capital controls at the height of the debt crisis. Traders said they expect sharp losses as a result of pent-up trading and fears about Greece's worsening economy.
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-33754005

Cedar
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Beetle on August 02, 2015, 10:24:45 PM
Only 20%???
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Cedar on August 03, 2015, 06:12:26 AM
59 minutes ago:
Greek shares plunge as market reopens. The nation's top four lenders - Piraeus Bank, National Bank, Alpha Bank, and Eurobank - were biggest fallers, all down by 30%, the maximum allowed. Banks make up about a fifth of the index. The bourse was shut just before Athens imposed capital controls at the height of the debt crisis
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-33754005

Cedar
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on August 03, 2015, 07:16:17 AM
it was expected to be so...The case is that trading is doen in uneven terms, with a liquidity handicap to the Greek investors.
Also the real question is who is buying?
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on August 05, 2015, 10:44:15 AM
this is a repost in Zerohedge
One Furious Greek Sums It All Up: "My Country & Its People Are Falling Apart"
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-08-04/one-furious-greek-sums-it-all-my-country-its-people-are-falling-apart

probably a 100% on the average person feelings
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Beetle on August 05, 2015, 07:38:07 PM
Buy the dip!
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Josh the Aspie on August 05, 2015, 10:23:11 PM
Oh, this is more than a dip.  If I was buying a "dip" like this, I'd be buying gold right now.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Beetle on August 06, 2015, 05:42:29 PM
If you had bought the dip in 2008 you would be rich. I guess Greece doesn't have a PPT or QE though.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Josh the Aspie on August 06, 2015, 06:45:44 PM
If I had bought the dip in 2008, I would have had more in fees before I needed to get cash back out of the market than was reasonable.

Buying a dip in gold then?  Smart.  If you were looking for an investment, rather than needing liquid assets.

Right now?  I'm waiting to buy on the upside of the bounce on gold, or when prices stabilize a bit.

As for Greece?  Unless the Eurozone kills itself faster to keep Greece in the Euro, I doubt Greece is going to bounce back to the levels it is at right now any time soon.  Even then, to much risk for my current portfolio and goals.

Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Beetle on August 06, 2015, 10:02:57 PM
When I said buy the dip I meant Tzatziki. :excited:
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Josh the Aspie on August 06, 2015, 10:05:33 PM
Mmmmm.  Tzaaatziiiikiiii.

I do like lamb gyros with Tzatziki.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Beetle on August 06, 2015, 10:11:08 PM
If I read it right the ASE is up +23!!!
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on August 12, 2015, 02:16:25 AM
wensday, August the 12th

- Yesterday an agreement was reached with the EU and IMF. New measures will be voted tomorrow  and Greece will eb refinanced considerably.
- The prospect of a deal reached has appeased and pasivated people more, and gone are the lines infront of the ATMs.
- It seems there will always be a portion of the population that will still not bother with the crisis, even if they are pushed in the corner by the recession.
- On the other hand there are people that are fast on their feet to secure their possessions and businesses. Having a considerable sum of cash under the matress is good for the sort term, but not for the long run when you have a business to run.
The banks in nearby Bulgaria are having a ball, there are people travelling there loaded with cash to open accounts. The cost of starting a business there is just 50euros but you manage to get a resident's address..
- The liquidity crash is killing the non-profiting organizations that are working overtime to help people. The Greek SOS villages went out of cash, even for gasoline money. Medicins san frontiers are callign for more volunters doctors.
- If you haven't heard in the news, there is a river of immigrants coming in Europe by Italy and Greece. Numbers are staggering, at this point there are Greek islands where immigrants exceed doubly the local population.

And lastly, I am tryign hard to define that part of the Greek population that are no-worth self-interested $^&^%%##%^ that move from party to party and vote goverments to power. Current party dynamics show that no party has more than 15-20% or real believers/supporters, and the change of three different parties -with totally different agendas- in goverment in the past years clearly shows that there is a 25% of roving voters. But we need that 25% to be turned to worthy voters if Greece is to see a capable goverment to lift us from the muck.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Cedar on August 20, 2015, 08:10:39 PM
5 hours ago:
Greece crisis: PM Alexis Tsipras quits and calls early polls. Greece's Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras has announced he is resigning and has called an early election. Mr Tsipras, who was only elected in January, said he had a moral duty to go to the polls now a third bailout had been secured with European creditors. The election date is yet to be set but earlier reports suggested 20 September.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34007859

Cedar
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Carl on August 20, 2015, 08:15:32 PM
Reminds me of rats leaving early ships before they sank......
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on August 21, 2015, 02:02:40 AM
sort of....I am getting the impression that Tsipras is avoiding the big battles or knows he cannot cope.
But anyone in his position would face this
Quote
Mr Tsipras will lead his leftist Syriza party into the polls, but he has faced a rebellion by some members angry at the bailout's austerity measures
In simple terms, Tsipras has lost parliament majority by loosing 20% of his MP. And the last agrrement passed vote with the help of the opposition voting for.
This is a hardly sustainable situation, unless one would want to believe that today's politicians are adult enough to work together for a common good and discard paryy interests.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Cedar on August 21, 2015, 05:20:41 PM
Is that why this is happening as well?
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/08/macedonia-issues-state-emergency-refugee-surge-150821061631417.html
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/08/21/uk-europe-migrants-macedonia-idUKKCN0QQ0M120150821

Cedar
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on August 22, 2015, 01:58:45 AM
No I don not think this forced the hand of the PM, although it is a ticking bomb, and everyone in Europe is waiting for it to blow on someone else's hands.

here is the situation
- there are more than 2000000 Syrian refugees in turkey waiting for a passage to Europe.
- Greece, Scopjia ( I will NOT use the Mxxxxx name for them), Serbia and Hungary are on their route/way.
- Their goal is to reach the northern European countries were most Syrians have relatives already there.
- One by one these countries are sealing their borders, but there is only sea between Greece and Turkey. ergo...
- The smugglers are instructing the refugees/alliens to sink their boat when they reach the Greek waters and see a Coast guard vessels. So there will be no turning back.
- It is becoming volatile over here. There are 2 Goverment hired cruisers that move immigrants from the islands in the mainland. Thousands each week.
- All reservations are already full and packed, but the situation is worst in the islands. Say 2 Imigration Office clerks to proceed 700 people every two days. in some islands the immigrands are more than twice the local population
- Countless others -mainly from Africa- are trying it through Italy

and I will cut both my hands if there is not a single ISIS agent within the immigrants
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: FreeLancer on August 22, 2015, 02:31:52 AM
What are the chances this refugee crisis is going to make my upcoming two weeks in the Greek Isles extra memorable?
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on August 22, 2015, 03:29:39 AM
dunno...
if the island is NOT close to Turkish shore, minimal

if it is close, there might be a chance. Only if they revolt, but this will not happen as long as they are transported inland
But what we have seen is an intense localization of the arrivals etc. lefe may go on as usual a 100 yards from ehere they reach the shore, and 50 yards off the place where they are housed, and the coast guard and police stations

What is your destination? Islands affected are the line from Rhodos to Lesvos..
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: FreeLancer on August 22, 2015, 03:51:37 AM
What is your destination? Islands affected are the line from Rhodos to Lesvos..

Athens, Crete, and the Cyclades.  Not too close to Turkey.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on August 22, 2015, 06:45:31 AM
you are good..... but stay several blocks away from the Omonoia square in Athens....There you will find more alliens than the Islands...

https://www.google.gr/maps/@37.9838732,23.7282376,16z?hl=el

if you hotel is around there (not likely) you leave and return by Taxi right at the door

When in Crete beware of the locals driving.

you gonna have a good time...
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: nkawtg on August 24, 2015, 10:12:21 AM
Someone on Twitter made the joke Varoufakis will blame the crash on the Germans. Well, his ex spokesman just did...

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CNLw3NrWIAAJP5d.png)

https://twitter.com/DimitrisY
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: FreeLancer on September 03, 2015, 04:12:36 AM
Totally uneventful trip, thus far, aside from the gawd awful heat. Took a quick walk around parliament before catching the plane to Crete, totally dead, nothing, just a couple of sleepy guards with MP5s. Flew on a brand new Agean A320 with impeccable stewardesses, straight out of the 60's, and here on Crete, Chania is packed with tourists with euros to spend.  Money talks, and it speaks English, and it speaks it very well, too. We Americans have no clue how privileged we are, not an effing clue.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on September 03, 2015, 04:25:40 AM
yepppp summer is carrying into September over here, but this year (and yesterday) has gone too far...The Concrete in Athens must be boiling!

Quote
Money talks, and it speaks English, and it speaks it very well, too. We Americans have no clue how privileged we are, not an effing clue.
????????????????
Chania is a favorite destination of drunk, rowdy Englanders. And there must be many English there for a summer job...But the rest i could not folow.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: FreeLancer on September 03, 2015, 04:53:53 AM
Chania is a favorite destination of drunk, rowdy Englanders. And there must be many English there for a summer job...But the rest i could not folow.

What I was getting at is that English is the universal secondary language of the world. At a restaurant, the waiter speaks to me in English, then goes to the next table and speaks to the Germans sitting there in English, then to the Russians in English, and finally back to the kitchen to deliver the orders in Greek. Everyone, except me, the dumbass American, had to learn a second language, and business/travel is what motivated them to learn. I didn't have to do a damn thing, except show up.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Carl on September 03, 2015, 04:58:18 AM
What I was getting at is that English is the universal secondary language of the world. At a restaurant, the waiter speaks to me in English, then goes to the next table and speaks to the Germans sitting there in English, then to the Russians in English, and finally back to the kitchen to deliver the orders in Greek. Everyone, except me, the dumbass American, had to learn a second language, and business/travel is what motivated them to learn. I didn't have to do a damn thing, except show up.

That's because you are a supreme being?
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: FreeLancer on September 03, 2015, 05:03:41 AM
That's because you are a supreme being?

Only if supreme can now be used synonymously with dumbass, which it might, given that I'm a dumbass.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: bigbear on September 03, 2015, 07:50:47 AM
Money talks, and it speaks English, and it speaks it very well, too. We Americans have no clue how privileged we are, not an effing clue.

English is koine.  And so is the US$. 

Aside:  Historically, Greek was the common (koine = Greek for common) language thanks to Alexander.  It became the language of trade for the crossroads of many cultures.  And many historians say it laid the foundation for the spread of Christianity in the region.  So what you're experiencing is what a Greek in say 100 BC or AD would have experienced travelling to Persia or Egypt.  They were able to trade and interact using a koine language. 
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: FreeLancer on September 03, 2015, 10:10:27 AM
I was thinking lingua franca, but koine is a much better term, much, much, better......
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: FreeLancer on September 04, 2015, 05:06:04 PM
So I'm near the end of one week of big fat greek wedding festivities and it's been very interesting to hear the opinions on the economic problems here.

Bear in mind, the people I'm speaking with are Greek Americans (actually Cretan Americans, they're fiercely proud of their island) who immigrated to the US utterly penniless and have uniformly amassed small fortunes after two generations of hard work. Interestingly, despite their fierce love of all things Greek, they have married immigrants from other countries, Jews, Palestinians, Persians, and Turks, who also came to the US with nothing. 

Tonight, one was telling me how he has to hire Albanians to do any construction or landscaping, because the Greeks will only work from 9-2 but still expect to get paid for a full day. Another told me he has a Ukrainian couple who manages his vineyards because he knows that the work will get done during those months he's in the US.  He actually said that the locals here are lazy and selfish, which makes it hard for them to get ahead in life.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on September 05, 2015, 01:20:00 AM
Yes and No...
Do not forget you visited a region that is VERY wealthy. To shy away from manual labor is to be expected, especially one haseasier incoe from other courses.
NOT that manual labor is avoided in Greece, we are in an historical low in my country, we are a product of a "have-all" society.

Also, I had to hire an Albanian couple to paint some rooms of the house because the locals are charging way too much for the current situation. Their prices have Not fallen despite the crisis.
BTW... the full day is an 8-hour job -and not morning to dusk- which is kinda long already when working in Mediterranean fields. Event the Albanian workers will not work further than that, unless they are paid more, or are free to wrok for hal a paycheck in the afternon for another employer.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: FreeLancer on September 05, 2015, 06:45:03 PM
Do not forget you visited a region that is VERY wealthy. To shy away from manual labor is to be expected, especially one haseasier incoe from other courses.

I was under the impression that Crete is an economic backwater compared to mainland Greece, where a large number are unemployed, yet still are unwilling to do manual labor.

Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on September 06, 2015, 01:38:36 AM
nope, they just live, somehow spendy. olive trees, husbandry (both with extra financial aid from the EU), vegetable greenhouses, tourism, old money...
Also there is a bifg differecne between people that live close to the sea and the mountain men. As it is the norm, the higher the purest.

BTW I occured to me that you were right about the language. Most kids study english at private schools from an early age, and the internet has opened prospects fo actually using the language. But there is a monority that they and their parents did not know better and are seriously missing on things. Yeh yuo got to study and pay for learning it, but this is not a big thing for a high schooler.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on September 06, 2015, 02:32:16 AM
just found this and freelancer will probably like it.
A videoclip of a song about the current political situation and upcoming elections
https://youtu.be/AufQINNTbNc
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: FreeLancer on September 06, 2015, 04:16:30 AM
just found this and freelancer will probably like it.
A videoclip of a song about the current political situation and upcoming elections
https://youtu.be/AufQINNTbNc

That illustrates so well what I've seen here the last few days.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: FreeLancer on September 06, 2015, 02:21:46 PM
Nothing reminds me of how totally spoiled I am than traveling to a place where AC is an expensive luxury.

The heat here in Greece really gets to me and hardly any establishments have it running for their customers. The hotel rooms are wired so the AC will only run when all outside windows or doors are shut and the room keycard is inserted in the card reader that switches the power on to the room, which really illustrates to me how expensive power costs must be here.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: David in MN on September 06, 2015, 05:49:51 PM
Nothing reminds me of how totally spoiled I am than traveling to a place where AC is an expensive luxury.

The heat here in Greece really gets to me and hardly any establishments have it running for their customers. The hotel rooms are wired so the AC will only run when all outside windows or doors are shut and the room keycard is inserted in the card reader that switches the power on to the room, which really illustrates to me how expensive power costs must be here.

That's a lot of Europe, to be fair...
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: The Spartan Dad on September 06, 2015, 07:15:27 PM
That's a lot of Europe, to be fair...

This. I don't know about Greece in particular but Europe in general has been doing their best to make electricity as expensive as possible through carbon tax credits, limited use of fossil fuels, and mandated percentages of electricity that must be generated through wind and solar power. The high electricity rates are a feature not a bug. I assume Greece does something similar.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: FreeLancer on September 06, 2015, 11:00:56 PM
Starbucks is icy cold inside. It's like stepping into a litt piece of Murica, with all the pluses and minuses that entails.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on September 06, 2015, 11:54:51 PM
yep! on my side I could not understand why the so many syntheti fibers on summer clothes. (i.e. the Columbia Shirt's line has a very few 100% cotton ones). Of course if you go from an AC car into an AC building at work, then on a AC coffeshop for lunch break, etc etc..it does not really matter.

regading electricity price it is about $ 0.18 per KWh after taxes etc. what about the US?
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: nkawtg on September 07, 2015, 12:02:14 AM
That's not really that bad, but I expect it depends on the standard of living in your area.
Here in Las Vegas it's about 14 cents per Kwh after taxes and our average annual salary is $46,000.
However if your income is drastically less than our average here in Vegas, then 18 cents may as well be the moon.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on September 07, 2015, 12:09:18 AM
before the crisis the average for a non-specialized worker was 10.500 to 12.600 a year...
not the moon, the MARS!
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: FreeLancer on September 10, 2015, 01:19:38 PM
Steaming back to Athens after a 4 day cruise on what my wife has termed "a cruise line for the proletariat."  I've been calling it the tramp steamer, but it's really not that bad and it's been interesting to be around so many Europeans, and not necessarily in a good way. Let's just say it wasn't the Americans who were acting ugly.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on September 10, 2015, 01:41:53 PM
old people acting ugly?  ;D ;D ;D

please don't tell me that it was one fo those cheap cruises like the Virgin's ones. with lot of youngsters drinking, getting of the boat in any stop and drinking there too.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: FreeLancer on September 11, 2015, 06:28:55 AM
old people acting ugly?  ;D ;D ;D

The average skewed toward the elderly end of the spectrum, but less so than any other cruise I've been on. Spaniards and those from the Slavic countries were rude and obnoxious, and I always forget how much more prevalent smoking is over here.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Smurf Hunter on September 21, 2015, 03:36:23 PM
I just noticed this message in a Morgan Stanley account I have.  Dated 7/10/15

Quote
StockPlan Connect Message - Important notice for plan participants who request to make a wire payment to an account held with a Greek bank or through a Greek bank as an intermediary. Due to the recent implementation of capital controls by the Greek government and the current state of affairs with the Greek banking system, such wire payments may be subject to delay, suspension or otherwise may not be released to the receiving bank account. If you request funds to be wired into a Greek bank, you agree and accept (i) the risks of requesting this funds transfer, (ii) that Morgan Stanley will not be responsible for such funds after your instructions are carried out, and (iii) confirm that Morgan Stanley is authorized to proceed with your wire instructions
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on September 22, 2015, 12:06:22 AM
do not know what would happen today, but -since we are following the Cyprus Capital control pattern- there are plans to divide the accounts in pre and after C.C. money. Assumably if yuo are to deposit X amount of money, you will be able to withdraw X amount with no hassle.
But I do not know if it has been implemented yet.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Josh the Aspie on September 22, 2015, 06:31:28 AM
http://www.unz.com/isteve/nyt-greeks-pushing-muslims-toward-germany-to-thank-merkel-for-her-kindness/
Quote
The Greeks are sending the Muslim masses north toward Germany as a gift to express how grateful Greece is for Germany’s kindness during last summer’s Euro crisis negotiations. The Greeks would love to hang onto all this prime human capital themselves, but they want Germany to benefit from the Merkel Youth as payback for Ms. Merkel’s kindness over the last seven years toward Greece.

It’s the least the Greeks could do for the Germans after all they’ve done for the Greeks.

As the old saying goes, “Never beware of Greeks bearing gifts.”

UPDATE: Oh, wait, it turns out that the Greek government explicitly threatened to unleash Muslim migrants upon Germany if Ms. Merkel’s government insisted upon a hardline in the Euro debt negotiations.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on September 22, 2015, 10:32:13 AM
hahahahah! wish it was true, but these migrants have a mind of their own. it is to be expected to gravitate towards the reachest and stronger country. Money laways beats sunshine.
And we are as full as we can be....

(indeed that particular threat was posed but from a politician not to be taken seriously)
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Josh the Aspie on September 22, 2015, 11:15:41 PM
Yeah, they are definitely moving north on their own on their own particular motivations.  But if Greece decided to defend it's borders, Germany wouldn't have to deal with the problem.  Of course, it doesn't have the resources to do so.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on September 23, 2015, 12:44:32 AM
Believe me we have...we are still armed cold war style, expecting landings and heli raids from Turkey.
But it is hard to even imagine setting the crosshairs of a ZSU-23-2 on migrants' boats.
Remember, Greece has ground borders with Turkey and nothing comes throu them, even these days.

An idea would be to tow the boats back to Turkish waters, but there is not much one can do of such overloaded boats
http://neotera.gr/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/metanastes708_2.jpg
This is why i laughed some posts back on the Eu intention for military raids on traffickers.
What does this mean? machinegunning the boats while on Turkish waters, or do black-ops raids inside Turkey?... yeh, right!

All that thing is just a pretense to shy away from admiting the real problem, Turkey fostering the traffickers.

Title: Re: Greece
Post by: metatron on September 23, 2015, 08:49:32 AM
Believe me we have...we are still armed cold war style, expecting landings and heli raids from Turkey.
But it is hard to even imagine setting the crosshairs of a ZSU-23-2 on migrants' boats.
Remember, Greece has ground borders with Turkey and nothing comes throu them, even these days.

An idea would be to tow the boats back to Turkish waters, but there is not much one can do of such overloaded boats
http://neotera.gr/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/metanastes708_2.jpg
This is why i laughed some posts back on the Eu intention for military raids on traffickers.
What does this mean? machinegunning the boats while on Turkish waters, or do black-ops raids inside Turkey?... yeh, right!

All that thing is just a pretense to shy away from admiting the real problem, Turkey fostering the traffickers.

The only way of dealing with the issue is making the EU a less inviting/appealing place. People don't come here for safety, their safe in Turkey and neighbouring countries. They come here, because of a believe in a better/easier life, you can't blame them for that, but equally you can't have the every poor/backwards country dumping their unwanted masses on us. I'd mine the boarders and waters and stick up warmings, that way if they choose to risk it, then its on them if/when they get blown up. Also only accept refugee's that apply outside the EU.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Josh the Aspie on September 25, 2015, 04:32:52 AM
http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/aria_c13542220150924120100.jpg

Is the guy in the image above wearing a Greek army uniform?  Greekman?
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on September 25, 2015, 12:22:33 PM
nope..it is the typical Greek boatman/fisherman...see this hat...

but I despise the pic's implication
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Josh the Aspie on September 25, 2015, 08:52:53 PM
That Greece can't afford to take on all the refugees of the middle-east?
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on September 26, 2015, 02:34:18 PM
no... that it plays good to attract immigrants then send them to Europe to create an issue for retaliation.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Josh the Aspie on September 26, 2015, 04:01:43 PM
I'm not sure I follow.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on September 27, 2015, 03:47:33 AM
there is the claim floatign around, that the goverment purposefuly made comign easyfor the migrants.
The proccesse them into the rest of Europe and create issues.
Sort of a bargaining/extortion chip.
"AUsterity has destroyed the stat functions among others, now you pay the price for it"
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on September 27, 2015, 03:52:47 AM
I am visting my sis these weekend in a large city. which was very amicable, with relaxd and open people.
But now I find things you would only see in Athens.
Yesterday a guy was shooting heroine on his ankle right next to the bus stop on the largest market street in town.
Today I saw an old lady in good clothes and good appearence begging for money. There is a whole cast of respectful pensioners that cannot make ends meet now.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on September 27, 2015, 04:00:06 AM
sweet revenge (sort of)
(relating to the great VW scandal, courtesy of the NYTimes)
(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xft1/t31.0-0/p640x640/12028691_1165716900109931_8104928161978334141_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: BriGy86 on November 05, 2015, 02:07:35 PM
Perhaps Greekman can shed some light on this too.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-11-05/21-million-greeks-face-blackout-public-power-company-unpaid-bills-soars
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on November 06, 2015, 03:43:12 AM
actually I ddi not knwo about this one, and i had to look it up.
But it is a long lasting problem

The situation is serious
- it is 2.1milion users out of the total 7.4 million. So 1 out of 3 owes the power company money.
- The situation must be critical cos 2.5bn means that much dept for the power company
The gist of the local news articles is that the power company will be aiming at the bad riich customers first.
- thankful, the company is well placed in assets cos it has its own large coal mines and some hydro, which account for the 70+% of the total production.
- being practically a sole provider owned by the state puts it in a weird position. It does carry some social policies regardign power availabilty/management etc etc
- several months ago we saw an increase in electrical power price beacuase the company was losing money.
- in that 2.1mn deptors are dead pour people that cannot pay, people that can but elect to withhold payments expecting a general dept forgiveness, businesses that are under, and businesses that have made a system of not paying.


As a sidenote, teh situation is EXACTLy like what FerFal was saying for the Argentinian public service companies.
That they were offering deterioratign services because of their clients' depts.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: spud on November 12, 2015, 09:57:45 PM
I keep forgetting the border of Greece and Turkey.  Just read some nasty stuff about Turkey in the  book  "Classified Woman". I wonder how hard it would  to buy goods in greece for export in non-traditional currency like coin in gold or silver?
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on November 13, 2015, 12:29:39 AM
mmm..no....
you see one of the reasons we have gone down is that we gradually lost our production infrastructure.
So there are nt many thinks one would export, much less for gold.
these days we have a positive export/inport ratio with Turkey, but most must be low tech stuff, like lamps (LOL)

I guess one could ask to be paid in Euro or Dollars in a foreign account
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: r_w on November 17, 2015, 06:31:28 AM
mmm..no....
you see one of the reasons we have gone down is that we gradually lost our production infrastructure.
So there are nt many thinks one would export, much less for gold.

Sounds familiar.

Anecdotal observation: last trip to Costco had LOTS of new foodstuffs from Greece.  So somebody figured out how to export something. 

And a reminder that you should always be able to grow enough to sell to finance what you cannot grow or make. 
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on November 17, 2015, 09:18:02 AM
that is always good, cos we really have the potentail to dominate by quality....
Statistics. 85% of the Greek olive oil production is Extra Virgin. this figure is 52 for Italy and 35 for spain.
But 70% of total is exported to Italy in cargo tanks to enhance their own. That is (85x70=60% of our virgin oil to be sold for cheap)

So yes, we can prime exporters of faul business models.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: TheRetiredRancher on November 17, 2015, 12:30:32 PM
Greenman, I saw there was a 6+ magnitude earthquake last night on the Greek coast. No mention in the U.S. Mainstream news. We're there any problems?
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on November 18, 2015, 06:00:48 AM
I will not be much help this time...I failed to hear anything important in the news and everything was drowned these days by the EU negotiation and the new measures to pass.

It is my impression that while shakey the quake ddi not do as much damage as the last one.The area is so full of sesmic activity that modern buildings can withstand lot more force than 6..
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: TheRetiredRancher on November 18, 2015, 07:07:41 AM
Thank you. I am glad to hear it was not worse.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Cedar on November 26, 2015, 06:40:36 AM
Another unthought of economic issue
"It's incredibly painful for families who cannot pay for the funeral of their loved one especially because burial is considered something holy here in Greece," says Maria Tsikaloudaki, of the Attiko General Hospital. "But we have reached a point in the crisis where families do not even try to hide their economic hardship any more."

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34920068

Cedar
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on December 14, 2015, 12:46:48 AM
well Jack posts far fetched law enforcement instances in his social media, but do not think that only happen in the US

13 policemen. 2 patrol cars and a crane against a roving chestnut seller with his cart.
http://papaioannou-giannis.net/2015/12/11/%CE%BC%CE%B5-%CE%B5%CE%BD%CF%84%CE%BF%CE%BB%CE%AE-%CF%84%CF%83%CE%B9%CF%80%CF%81%CE%B1-%CE%B7-%CF%83%CF%8D%CE%BB%CE%BB%CE%B7%CF%88%CE%B7-%CE%BA%CE%B1%CF%83%CF%84%CE%B1%CE%BD%CE%AC-%CF%83%CF%84%CE%B7/
He had a special permit for, but did not give receipts.
In sheer contrast, last week a goverment MP was caught tax evading by hiding the ownership of 38 pieces of property and 2mn Euro of bank deposits.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on June 30, 2016, 05:02:05 AM
A small update (if there is any mqanign into following this anyomore) ....

The recessive spiral of the Greek economy is showing its effects.
These days we are witnessing the death of a huge supermarket/retailer chain, that its size amounts to 1% of Greece's GDP.
A rough calculation of depts towards the banks and suppliers brings it again up to 1%, (1.8 bn E)
The firm overextended itself the collapsed 3 years back but managed -avoiding any controls- to kick the ball long enough to pilfer the company by its assets.
this is the chery on a the cake of dept in this country, where everyone owes anyone.

Wasn't it Jack that said that dept is Cancer?
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: TheRetiredRancher on June 30, 2016, 06:26:10 AM
"Wasn't it Jack that said that dept is Cancer?"

A lot of people have said that, Greekman including Jack.   

And thank you for the update.  I still see Greece as the "canary in the coal mine" for the world economy.  So far the canary has breathed in a lot of toxic fumes, but is still alive if coughing a lot.  Please keep up the health reports, I still read them.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Morning Sunshine on June 30, 2016, 06:39:08 AM
I also read your updates
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on June 30, 2016, 06:44:23 AM
thanks...indeed it is a cautionary tale, but you are catchign up fast, at last regarding the way your society goes.
I also cannot tell if the 2008 crisis was a warnign or the real thing.

BTW  "(if there is any mqanign into following this anyomore) .."
had more to do with my feeling that
- things are clear now, at least for me
- I do not have to big an urge to talkign about this....

BTW....what uis wallmarts size?
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: endurance on June 30, 2016, 07:10:19 AM
thanks...indeed it is a cautionary tale, but you are catchign up fast, at last regarding the way your society goes.
I also cannot tell if the 2008 crisis was a warnign or the real thing.

BTW  "(if there is any mqanign into following this anyomore) .."
had more to do with my feeling that
- things are clear now, at least for me
- I do not have to big an urge to talkign about this....

BTW....what uis wallmarts size?
Walmart has a net income of $14 billion a year with about $200 billion in assets. 11,500 locations worldwide and revenue approaching $500 billion a year. They employ 2.2 million people worldwide directly.

Greece may have been leading the way, but if you're following Argentina, Brazil, or Venezuela, they may come out better than some. I wonder if the EU might be buffering the collapse relative to what others are experiencing now. It seems the others are much quicker and deeper collapses.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on June 30, 2016, 10:18:20 AM
the last 2 of your phrases are the enigma even the future historians will be fist fighting over.
For sure they extnd the downfall. Adn we are living the gradual collpase of the counry, just like Ferfal has discribed.
(unexpected power breaks started to happen. Very scarce, but we Never had such again as far as i can remember)

On the other hand a sudden default and grexit would not push us that deep.

BTW i just checked. wallmart is 2.8% of the US GDP
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: bigbear on February 14, 2017, 12:17:12 PM
http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/766811/Eurozone-crisis-Greece-ditch-euro-US-dollar-Trump-Ted-Malloch

Seems like it could be some bluster in the headlines. 
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on February 15, 2017, 09:43:29 AM
nah! stupid report chewing on stupid propaganda...

our leaders will capitulate in whatever takes to remain in the euro. even after  germnay leaves it too...
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on March 30, 2018, 12:59:23 AM
hi all1 time for a short update on the Greek situation.

1. On the economy.
indexes are improving, GDP is back in the positives, and the state budget has been showing a surplus.
BUT.
this comes to the expense of the people i a bad way. Most of the surpluses are extreme taxation. Self employed and businessmen are taxed at more than half their net income, and there are even cases that working people have been taxed more than their whole income, due to perturbations of the tax system.
What actually happens is that more and more people are getting impoverished and pushed to the sideline.
Staple foods consumption like milk and pasta has DROPPED 16 the past 2 years.
In the meantime more and more residue of psychiatric drugs are measured in the sewage water.

2.
Greece is the war path with Turkey.
Question is not if, but when, and not further by the end of summer.
There have always been territorial incidents, but the past few months we had exchange of gunfire between navy boats, a ramming of a Greek coast guard vessel and an arrest (capture actually) of two Greek officers in a undistinguished border region between the two countries.
And i really mean war time preperations. Nothing is said on the open, but everyone has a relative or a friend in the army.
Reservists addresses are being updated/confirmed, notices for possible commandeering are sent to truck owners, fighting material is brought back from immobility probably using wartime stock of parts, former officers are making open calls to their active counterparts in small Aegean islands to improve on their field expedient fortifications, you get the idea.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Carl on March 30, 2018, 01:13:42 AM
  Sounds like preparations for some conflict ahead and things will get far worse before they have any chance of improvement. I would try to relocate to any area geographically remote to avoid areas of conflict and prepare to self support needs of living for that time of need.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on March 30, 2018, 01:40:32 AM
yes, this should be the general precautions.
But not that applicable to the Aegean islands where people must stay to make their living on tourism.

On my end I am in a safe for conscription age, I am in the heartland of Greece, and as a "prepper" i do not have to make any extra preperations.
As posted on the"What did you do today to prep..." thread my main care is proving conscript friends and family with the proper gear to supplement/remedy the Vietnam era Greek army battle gear. (H-harness and M-71 buttpack).
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Smurf Hunter on March 30, 2018, 10:43:31 AM
Turkey is a terrible ally.  I don't understand what values they have in common with western democracies.  NATO membership is not a casual thing.  It means you'll go to way on their behalf.
You would not make such a promise to an idiot who walked into a bar and started insulting people twice his size.  Turkey instigates things, both in Syria and now along the greek border.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Greekman on March 30, 2018, 02:01:23 PM
You would not make such a promise to an idiot who walked into a bar and started insulting people twice his size. 

Cos that idiot leases the whole building to the sheriff's office.
Whether I like it or not, Turkey has secured the best plot in the general area. i.e. During the two World Wars it was right in Germany's way to the Messopotamia oil reserves.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Smurf Hunter on March 30, 2018, 03:21:05 PM
Cos that idiot leases the whole building to the sheriff's office.
Whether I like it or not, Turkey has secured the best plot in the general area. i.e. During the two World Wars it was right in Germany's way to the Messopotamia oil reserves.

good point there
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Chemsoldier on March 30, 2018, 03:32:25 PM
Only secular nation in the mid-east with halfway democratic institutions?

Things have been poor recently, but Turkey seemed better than the alternative.  They also recognized Israel shortly after Egypt did.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Smurf Hunter on March 30, 2018, 03:57:44 PM
Only secular nation in the mid-east with halfway democratic institutions?

Things have been poor recently, but Turkey seemed better than the alternative.  They also recognized Israel shortly after Egypt did.

So is this BS?

https://www.nato.int/cps/ua/natohq/topics_110496.htm

What I mean is, on a personal level, there's a short list of people I'd truly stick my neck out for.  Expanding that list to contractually include the "least bad student in detention" does not appeal to me.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: Chemsoldier on March 31, 2018, 05:16:35 PM
You asked a question, why we are allies with Turkey. In the bipolar world of the cold war, it seemed a valid risk and if any mideast nation was worth the risk it was seen as that one. It also shared a border with the Soviet union, extending the borders the soviets had to protect. Our relationship with Iran was based on that assumption as well.

Obvious it hasn't worked out great in all respects but you asked.

Additional, the process of expelling an ally from the alliance carries risk for the alliance as a whole though admittedly Turkey's behavior carries risk also.

It's not like we always act like we give a damn what our Allies want either.
Title: Re: Greece
Post by: iam4liberty on May 31, 2018, 05:49:09 PM
Austerity deal is fraying.

https://www.theknifemedia.com/world-news/greek-workers-strike-austerity-measures/ (https://www.theknifemedia.com/world-news/greek-workers-strike-austerity-measures/)

Greek workers strike over austerity measures

Thousands of Greek workers went on strike on Wednesday for 24 hours to protest austerity measures implemented in exchange for international debt relief. More than 10,000 workers, students, pensioners and unemployed people protested in front of the parliament in Athens around noon, Reuters reported.

Air traffic controllers also held a three hour work stoppage, leading flights to be canceled or rescheduled. Bus and trolley service was running at reduced capacity, and some ships were unable to sail. Journalists for state and private television stations also went on strike; the stations aired documentaries instead of news.