The Survival Podcast Forum

Armory, Self Defense, And EDC => Firearms (Including Long Guns, Pistols) => Firearm Self Defense => Topic started by: Burton on December 28, 2012, 08:29:23 AM

Title: Defense where none is allowed
Post by: Burton on December 28, 2012, 08:29:23 AM
I am looking to get my CCP in VA as soon as I decide between a P239 SAS 2 or G27 but I cannot carry with me all the time. In fact most of the time I cant carry since I work and commute to DC 5 days a week.

This got me to thinking about non lethal (NL) and less than lethal (LTL) options. My first thought was a taser or stun gun, but even those are illegal in DC. My second thought was OC / Pepper spray and it turns out you can buy them in DC but only if you register it with the local PD and you have to be a resident (similar to owning a gun in DC you must be a resident and register it).

Some have claimed to have called the Metro PD and asked about carrying OC / P into DC from another state as a non resident and they said it was ok. But others have stated it is not by simply reading the rule. So I asked my step father, a 25yr recently retired fairfax VA cop and he said it was illegal. >_<

So what does that leave me with? Knives? I know anything over 3" and your asking for trouble, 2"+ if your going to places like the Pentagon.

What other options are there? I don't think I want to be walking around with a cane to beat someone who has a gun pointed at me.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Defense where none is allowed
Post by: MCopes on December 28, 2012, 09:46:26 AM
Move, as soon as possible.
Title: Re: Defense where none is allowed
Post by: Burton on December 28, 2012, 11:00:09 AM
Move, as soon as possible.

LOL I dont live in the city, I live in VA and commute there.

I keep finding several difference sources who claimed to have called Metro PD and confirmed if they carry OC / P into DC from another state it is legal. So now I am looking at reviews and sizes for my DC EDC lol
Title: Re: Defense where none is allowed
Post by: pokeshell on January 02, 2013, 07:45:28 PM
Move, as soon as possible.
Move Find new work, as soon as possible.

Title: Re: Defense where none is allowed
Post by: Hurricane on January 03, 2013, 09:57:14 AM
LOL I dont live in the city, I live in VA and commute there.

I keep finding several difference sources who claimed to have called Metro PD and confirmed if they carry OC / P into DC from another state it is legal. So now I am looking at reviews and sizes for my DC EDC lol
Simply call the police and ask. Use the phone in someone else's office  ;D
Or maybe you regularly see the same officers in your work area and could talk to them personally?
Title: Re: Defense where none is allowed
Post by: Luvmy45 on January 03, 2013, 10:46:10 PM
Lots of options...

First, get a small knife, nev a bad idea to have one for multiple things.

If you carry a bag of any kind, carry some wasp spray with you. It's a big can, but it has long range, and its not illegal.  Or at least keep some at your office space.

Keys... Have enough keys on your ring that you can put them in your hands sticking out to scratch and poke

Kubaton... Large wooden dowel on your keychain, learn how to use it.

Sharkie or something like it... Even a good metal ball point pen can work great.

I'm not telling you to break the law here..l but pepper spray is easy to conceal and carry... Same with a larger knife, unless your going in and out of security check points. Risk vs reward.

Your best line of defense though is getting out of the white mindset and living in the yellow. Awareness of your surroundings, who's around you and what's going on.... The way to win a gunfight... Is not to be there.

Good luck
Title: Re: Defense where none is allowed
Post by: bcksknr on January 04, 2013, 05:22:11 AM
Before I retired from teaching, I kept a can of the nastiest wasp nest spray I could find in my desk and a golf putter behind it. The schools plan for an armed "invader" was for me to lock the door and pull down the window shade on the large glass door window next to the door knob (that could always be opened from inside, if someone shot out the window). I've heard oven cleaner can be dangerous when sprayed in the face, but wasp spray will hit a nest with a concentrated stream from 20+ feet, and the label cautions that a human might stop breathing if it's inhailed. Of course its against the law to use it in an "unapproved" manner. Too bad some of the teachers in Connecticut weren't prepared for a "wasp" problem.
Title: Re: Defense where none is allowed
Post by: joeandmich on January 04, 2013, 06:07:52 AM
When I take my dog on walks at 5am in the morning I usually take my cold steel polypropelene sjambok which is a 3' black whip like stick. If I had to conceal it I would take a belt knife made of hard plastic. It can't cut well but can punch stab well enough.
Title: Re: Defense where none is allowed
Post by: livinitup0 on January 04, 2013, 07:22:30 AM
Lots of options...

First, get a small knife, nev a bad idea to have one for multiple things.

If you carry a bag of any kind, carry some wasp spray with you. It's a big can, but it has long range, and its not illegal.  Or at least keep some at your office space.

Keys... Have enough keys on your ring that you can put them in your hands sticking out to scratch and poke

Kubaton... Large wooden dowel on your keychain, learn how to use it.

Sharkie or something like it... Even a good metal ball point pen can work great.

I'm not telling you to break the law here..l but pepper spray is easy to conceal and carry... Same with a larger knife, unless your going in and out of security check points. Risk vs reward.

Your best line of defense though is getting out of the white mindset and living in the yellow. Awareness of your surroundings, who's around you and what's going on.... The way to win a gunfight... Is not to be there.

Good luck

Wasp spray is illegal to use as a weapon, as are larger knives in most states.
One of these other weapons may be applicable here...but are going to be practically worthless without training.
Title: Re: Defense where none is allowed
Post by: bcksknr on January 04, 2013, 07:55:20 AM
No offense meant, but many things that are legal to have on your person are illegal to use in an "unapproved" manner. I'd rather have to explain to a jury why the purp who was trying to shoot up a classroom, died from inhaling wasp spray (not to mention a putter stuck in his skull). The children and teachers who died at Sandy Hook where following "approved" procedures and were entirely within the law (and dead).
Title: Re: Defense where none is allowed
Post by: livinitup0 on January 04, 2013, 08:00:36 AM
No offense meant, but many things that are legal to have on your person are illegal to use in an "unapproved" manner. I'd rather have to explain to a jury why the purp who was trying to shoot up a classroom, died from inhaling wasp spray (not to mention a putter stuck in his skull). The children and teachers who died at Sandy Hook where following "approved" procedures and were entirely within the law (and dead).

to each their own... but I dont think discussing using illegal defense measures is allowed on this board....just a heads up.
Title: Re: Defense where none is allowed
Post by: Luvmy45 on January 04, 2013, 10:49:08 AM
It's not illegal to carry wasp spray... You just bought some and are carrying home from where you bought it.

Now, if something bad were to happen and you happen to have it on you... And your willing to use it in an "unapproved" manner, then so be it,,,

I can't really believe we are having this conversation though ???
Title: Re: Defense where none is allowed
Post by: Mr. Bill on January 04, 2013, 11:31:28 AM
to each their own... but I dont think discussing using illegal defense measures is allowed on this board....just a heads up.

MODERATOR NOTE:

There's a very blurry line between
We aim for balance, and we do have a lot of moderator discussions along the lines of "Is this too illegal?" "Gosh, I dunno, what do you think?" "Well, it's illegal in California but not Wyoming..." etc.

To a large extent, we're relying on you guys to moderate yourselves.  If you're about to post something that could attract the attention of some hot-shot prosecutor or liability lawyer, please give it some extra thought.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Defense where none is allowed
Post by: Twibble on January 04, 2013, 11:35:48 AM
I used to carry a roll of quarters and a handkerchief whenever I flew.  I have long hair, so I always have things to tie it back with.  A roll of quarters tied into the corner of a handkerchief can thunk somebody pretty well.  Fair warning though, apparently some of the X-ray machines can't see what a roll of quarters is, so security might want to see it.
Title: Re: Defense where none is allowed
Post by: livinitup0 on January 04, 2013, 11:49:21 AM
MODERATOR NOTE:

There's a very blurry line between
  • protecting Jack from legal liability, and
  • being totally OCD about every possibly-illegal thing that might get mentioned on the forum.

We aim for balance, and we do have a lot of moderator discussions along the lines of "Is this too illegal?" "Gosh, I dunno, what do you think?" "Well, it's illegal in California but not Wyoming..." etc.

To a large extent, we're relying on you guys to moderate yourselves.  If you're about to post something that could attract the attention of some hot-shot prosecutor or liability lawyer, please give it some extra thought.  Thanks.

I'll just leave it to you guys in the future.... Im still kinda confused on whats cool and whats not.

so...about that wasp spray...

if a guy with bear spray and a guy with wasp spray walk into a bar... uh....crap....I forget how this one ends.

;)
Title: Re: Defense where none is allowed
Post by: Mr. Bill on January 04, 2013, 12:07:33 PM
I'll just leave it to you guys in the future.... Im still kinda confused on whats cool and whats not.

Yeah, so are we.  We do the best we can.

if a guy with bear spray and a guy with wasp spray walk into a bar... uh....crap....I forget how this one ends.

If this were the moderator's board, it would end with gay porn and inflatable goats. 8)
Title: Re: Defense where none is allowed
Post by: rustyknife on January 04, 2013, 12:52:22 PM
Carry a spray bottle of ammonia/water mix. If some one asks what it's for" it is to wash you car windows".
Title: Re: Defense where none is allowed
Post by: windchill on January 04, 2013, 01:01:14 PM
Does the nature of your work require hand tools? A trick that the 2-legged rats around here use is to carry a framing hammer on their pants loop, or just walk around with a large flat screwdriver and a rag like they are on their way to fix something, loitering outside of businesses.
Title: Re: Defense where none is allowed
Post by: Burton on January 04, 2013, 01:53:40 PM
Odd, but good, to see this topic take off after a week of being posted.

Biggest knife you can carry in DC is 3" before you get in trouble, and a knife isn't going to stop someone easily.

As far as wasp spray I can't think of a 'legal' reason I would be carrying before happen to use it on a perp. Personally I work on computers, and not physically, so tools would be out of the question however I do ride a motorcycle so I am sure there is something I can claim is for the bike that I carry. And I imagine those who ride a bike could do the same. (like maybe a hard metal pump or something)

DC does allow OC/ Pepper spray but going with the original theme lets imagine we are in some place which doesn't allow pepper spray like Chicago or NY City.

I have a feeling there are many things we could carry which serve other purposes but when used right can be used for defense. My mother carried one of those aluminum 5" / 6" batons on her key ring and I was trying to detach it when I found out the hard way it also contained pepper spray >_<

I think the key with any defensive measure would be distance. At what distance is it useful and how effective would it be.
Title: Re: Defense where none is allowed
Post by: inbox485 on January 04, 2013, 02:28:55 PM
My suggestion is to learn the laws and follow them. Don't ever under any circumstances call a cop, and ask a legal question. They aren't lawyers. The only good answer they can give you is to not trust any legal advise from a cop. As far as breaking laws, I don't advocate it. There are those that do, and follow the reasoning that the risk of the law is less than the risk of the criminal, but IMO there are better ways of handling it. Best suggestion is to plan your commute to be as direct of an in and out as possible and learn some empty handed / improvised weapon skills. If I recall, DC is one of the areas where anything that is carried as a weapon is an illegal weapon, but things that have a non weapon purpose are fair game if you happen to use them defensively.

Whatever you carry, just be sure it doesn't become some sort of talisman. I could do more with a 3" knife than most people could do with a machete, but I don't exactly expect that to be the norm, and I don't exactly feel naked without one. All the kobutons and junk in the world are only incrementally better than your bare hands. Pepper spray is not your friend if you can't back it up or get the heck out of there.
Title: Re: Defense where none is allowed
Post by: iam4liberty on January 09, 2013, 08:45:00 PM
I travel to the DC and Reston areas regularly.  The use of "defensive sprays" are indeed legal in DC.  You can find the codes here: http://mpdc.dc.gov/page/self-defense-sprays-registration-requirements-and-use-dc (http://mpdc.dc.gov/page/self-defense-sprays-registration-requirements-and-use-dc).  If you contact the metro police, what they probably will tell you is that if you buy it in DC you will need to have the vender send in the form.  But if you live outside DC and purchase it outside (including online), you will not need to register it.

The use of wasp spray as a defensive spray would actually violate both DC and federal laws.  DC regulates the ingredients which can be used in defensive sprays (they qualified five of them including the most common and very effective, OC).  The active ingredients of wasp spray aren't included and can in fact have permanent health effects.  Also, as a pesticide, wasp sprays fall under the laws regulating misuse.
Title: Re: Defense where none is allowed
Post by: CR Williams on January 10, 2013, 07:22:51 AM
Throw a few bucks at a good wide-body pen made of stainless steel. Some very fine fountain pens available, if I recall correctly, not to mention ballpoints and rollerballs, for ten to twenty dollars that would serve you well. Less obtrusive than a kubotan, which won't be allowed in some areas, but about the same size for use of kubotan techniques. On the lower end of expense, I've found the Zebra line of pens and mechanical pencils to be very sturdy and good for...writing and drawing...yes, that's it...writing and drawing...

If you are familiar with flexible-weapons, something in the lines of a manriki kusari can be constructed. The last one I had used parachute cord on two keychains. For ease of access to the keys, you can loop the cord through the belt where it holds the keyrings in the top area of the pocket. Also Keyper makes a retractable keychain that uses a Kevlar line. Or a two-or-three foot USB or network cable, assuming you have devices that may need hooking up from time to time.

A half-handful of loose change in the pocket could serve as metsubushi to support any or all of this or whatever else you can deploy.

Don't forget also to consider use of things such as books, notepads, briefcases, and backpacks. Some imagination and a few minutes of experimentation will bring dividends here.
Title: Re: Defense where none is allowed
Post by: livinitup0 on January 10, 2013, 07:52:19 AM
A weapon without extensive training is just a false sense of security and and excuse to get hurt. Id highly suggest if you're concerned about safety to really focus on situational awareness,....and since you already said pepper spray was allowed in DC I think you've found your self-defense answer.

If it werent allowed Id suggest a self-defense class... no offense to anyone at all, but all these improvised weapons are going to be absolutely worthless without actually using them in a high-adrenaline situation numerous times and gaining experience with them...and in most cases with these weapons you're actively going to be making the choice to fight your attacker rather than running away from them... call me a coward but Ive got way too many people that rely on me for me to get hurt playing ninja when in most cases I could throw a money-clip filled with monopoly money on the ground and run away.....I think thats the most likely way I can gaurantee that I'll be going home to my family.

That being said I do carry up to what the law allows me to carry and I have a 2nd degree black belt in TaeKwonDo... but if I were in a confrontation im going to be looking for the 1st chance to run... and if I literally cant... then...and only then...will I use force to extract myself from the situation. 

again...just my $0.02.
Title: Re: Defense where none is allowed
Post by: CopperKnight on January 10, 2013, 08:21:20 AM
A weapon without extensive training is just a false sense of security and and excuse to get hurt.

I agree here. 

Use a 2 AA Maglight attached to keys as a kubaton.  Keep wasp spray at work and in your car in a hardware store bag with a box of screws and a screwdriver like you just bought it.  Walk with a limp and carry a cane.  Tightly roll up a sturdy magazine to use as a striking implement.  Choose a thing or two or three of any of to do, then learn how to use your chosen workarounds effectively. 

As for protecting yourself against a guy with a gun, nothing is as effective as return fire.  Do what you can with what you have when it happens.
Title: Re: Defense where none is allowed
Post by: Jack Crabb on January 10, 2013, 09:01:54 AM
Don't be short sighted. The initial act of self-defense is only the first, but very important, part.

There may be civil litigation that follows when the assailant sues you for personal injury suffered in the course of assaulting you. Do you want to defend that suit with stories about the wasp spray, ammonia, rusted fishhooks, sharpened screwdrivers, etc. that you kept? Or, do you want to present a defense that you used pepper spray, kubaton, flashlight, etc. just as the LEO and security people do?

Bernie Goetz wounded four assailants. He was charged with attempted murder, assault, reckless endangerment, and several firearms offenses. A jury found him not guilty of all charges except an illegal firearms possession count.

Another jury found that Goetz had acted recklessly and had deliberately inflicted emotional distress on one of the assailants. The jury awarded $43 million – $18 million for pain and suffering and $25 million in punitive damages. Goetz subsequently filed for bankruptcy. A judge of the United States Bankruptcy Court ruled that the $43 million jury award could not be dismissed by the bankruptcy.
Title: Re: Defense where none is allowed
Post by: CopperKnight on January 10, 2013, 10:07:55 AM
Don't be short sighted. The initial act of self-defense is only the first, but very important, part.

There may be civil litigation that follows when the assailant sues you for personal injury suffered in the course of assaulting you. Do you want to defend that suit with stories about the wasp spray, ammonia, rusted fishhooks, sharpened screwdrivers, etc. that you kept? Or, do you want to present a defense that you used pepper spray, kubaton, flashlight, etc. just as the LEO and security people do?

Bernie Goetz wounded four assailants. He was charged with attempted murder, assault, reckless endangerment, and several firearms offenses. A jury found him not guilty of all charges except an illegal firearms possession count.

Another jury found that Goetz had acted recklessly and had deliberately inflicted emotional distress on one of the assailants. The jury awarded $43 million – $18 million for pain and suffering and $25 million in punitive damages. Goetz subsequently filed for bankruptcy. A judge of the United States Bankruptcy Court ruled that the $43 million jury award could not be dismissed by the bankruptcy.

Which, I believe, shows that you protect yourself however you can.  If there are two juries that can give as polar opposite results as those did, you can't predict what will happen after the assault.  I'd rather owe some piece of crap criminal my house and be alive than be dead and because I did nothing, fearing he might get my possessions if I defend myself.
Title: Re: Defense where none is allowed
Post by: livinitup0 on January 10, 2013, 10:35:48 AM
"I'd rather owe some piece of crap criminal my house and be alive than be dead and because I did nothing, fearing he might get my possessions if I defend myself."

I'd rather train extensively with defense so I can not only mitigate threats but also gaurantee (as much as possible) that mt life wont be ruined in the process. I really dont think you have to choose one or the other.
Title: Re: Defense where none is allowed
Post by: CopperKnight on January 10, 2013, 11:43:31 AM
I'd rather train extensively with defense so I can not only mitigate threats but also gaurantee (as much as possible) that mt life wont be ruined in the process.

I agree, as stated in my previous post: "Choose a thing or two or three of any of to do, then learn how to use your chosen workarounds effectively." 

I really dont think you have to choose one or the other.

I disagree with this statement only in the respect that you don't get to choose if your life is ruined or not.  That decision is made by the prosecutor, the dirtbag, and/or the jury.  There may be fact twisting, outright lies, insinuations, and other things during the process that will affect the outcome. 

Keeping up your situational awareness to avoid any problems you can is your best bet.  Having sound judgement and knowing when to stop actively defending yourself (fighting) and flee as well as knowing how to defend yourself come after that.
Title: Re: Defense where none is allowed
Post by: endurance on January 10, 2013, 11:48:11 AM
who says i'm going to stick around after the assault?  is the bad guy going to call the cops?  maybe, maybe not. 

Title: Re: Defense where none is allowed
Post by: livinitup0 on January 10, 2013, 11:53:31 AM
"I disagree with this statement only in the respect that you don't get to choose if your life is ruined or not."

True... but I think proper training also involves training in mitigating legal ramifications as much as possible... much like in CCW training. I dont think theres anything that will "gaurantee" that there will be no repercussions....but I definitely think there are things we can do and I definitely do not agree that you have to make choice between lawlessness or being defenseless.
Title: Re: Defense where none is allowed
Post by: livinitup0 on January 10, 2013, 11:55:43 AM
who says i'm going to stick around after the assault?  is the bad guy going to call the cops?  maybe, maybe not.

+1

Hauling arse out of there would be my top priority.... not waiting around for johnny law and making sure everything's cool. lol if they need me they'll find me.
Title: Re: Defense where none is allowed
Post by: CopperKnight on January 10, 2013, 12:17:51 PM
True... but I think proper training also involves training in mitigating legal ramifications as much as possible... much like in CCW training. I dont think theres anything that will "gaurantee" that there will be no repercussions....but I definitely think there are things we can do and I definitely do not agree that you have to make choice between lawlessness or being defenseless.

We are in complete agreement there.  Learn what is and isn't legal.  Learn how to defend yourself in various situation and with a variety of "tools".  Learn what to and what not to say after an incident. 

As for the future of "lawless vs defenseless", 'they' are really working towards making that a one or the other decision.
Title: Re: Defense where none is allowed
Post by: Jack Crabb on January 10, 2013, 01:41:15 PM
who says i'm going to stick around after the assault?  is the bad guy going to call the cops?  maybe, maybe not.

Hauling arse out of there would be my top priority.... not waiting around for johnny law and making sure everything's cool. lol if they need me they'll find me.

I believe the conventional protocol for self-defense situations is to always be the complaining witness. Depart to safety if you must, but call the police before the bad guy.

The police will find you when they need you because the BG will report he was innocently walking down the alley and you sprayed him in the face because he was [insert physical attribute different from yours that is a hate crime].
Title: Re: Defense where none is allowed
Post by: joeandmich on January 11, 2013, 07:57:02 AM
I agree, as stated in my previous post: "Choose a thing or two or three of any of to do, then learn how to use your chosen workarounds effectively." 

I disagree with this statement only in the respect that you don't get to choose if your life is ruined or not.  That decision is made by the prosecutor, the dirtbag, and/or the jury.  There may be fact twisting, outright lies, insinuations, and other things during the process that will affect the outcome. 

Keeping up your situational awareness to avoid any problems you can is your best bet.  Having sound judgement and knowing when to stop actively defending yourself (fighting) and flee as well as knowing how to defend yourself come after that.

I agree with you. Situation awareness is a primary focus at our Krav Maga School in Miami. Another is awareness of what situation your would be assailant is putting you into. If he has a weapon then you have to realize that the assailant is willing to hurt you badly and even kill you to get what he wants. If this is your situation then you have to react accordingly. Luckily in Florida you can defend yourself legally with deadly force if faced with an assailant with a weapon.

Now if the assailant comes only without a weapon, then you resort to Krav Maga self defense then call the police.
Title: Re: Defense where none is allowed
Post by: blademan on January 25, 2013, 10:13:57 AM
If you are going to carry a defensive spray, carry a spray made for defense. I'm not saying wasp spray isn't effective. I'm sure it is and I try to avoid finding out. I'm pretty darn successful at that.
  I'm saying that it will open you up to litigation civil and criminal that pepper spray won't or will do less so. If its in your hand when the bad guy makes his move, spray spray spray.
  Using it as a go to or primary is about as semsible as using sprauy paint or starter fluid or gasoline. Sure it will work. But after that there may be big problems.
   Ammonia in a water gun or a spray bottle is the same.
  Someone mentioned the 5 or 6" baton for a keychain with pepper spray in it. That's fantastic. Its called the ASP Key Defender. Its awesome. Look into it. You don't need a fire hydrant of pepper spray to stop a situation. In my opinion, if a little doesn't work, a lot probably work much better.
  I don't walk with a limp and carry a cane. I walk like a normal person and carry a cane. Limps make you look weak and looking weak makes you look like a traget.  You can even carry the cane under and arm (or carry and umbrella) and if asked by someone you can't tell to piss off what its for, tell them you have a trick knee that act up randomly so you carry a cane in case you need it.  This works pretty well. A large walking stick works prettyt well too depending on where you are going. It offers lots of support for walking through challenging areas.
   Those little bulbs of REAL LEMON that look like lemons or limes are a good way to flavor your tea or other beverage, by the way. I accidentally got some in my EYE once, it really didn't make me feel like fighting with anyone. Sometimes I carry hot sauce in a squeeze bottle because I like a specific brand to put on my tacos at taco bell. I try not to get this in my EYE. It stings. A lot. I hate it when the cap pops open and a little leaks out.
   
  I hope you have found my ideas for flavoring beverages and food condiments to be helpful. I also hope that you remeber to carry your walking aid with you at all times. I know from experience that knees and feet can act up at the most unexpected times and that you can suddenly find yourself on very challenging terrain at a moments notice. Take care in the urban jungle and enjoy the tacos.