The Survival Podcast Forum

Survivalism & Self Sufficiency Topics => Communications => Topic started by: Alan Georges on September 24, 2018, 08:09:14 PM

Title: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: Alan Georges on September 24, 2018, 08:09:14 PM
You can read full details here:
https://swling.com/blog/2018/08/information-from-the-nist-regarding-possible-closure-wwv-radio-stations/ (https://swling.com/blog/2018/08/information-from-the-nist-regarding-possible-closure-wwv-radio-stations/)
TLDR version: Next year's budget for the NIST has their time signal broadcast funds zeroed out.  This includes the WWV & WWVH shortwave stations, and the longwave WWVB automatic clock synchronization broadcasts as well.  Total per-year cost of these broadcasts is $6m.

These stations provide not only a time signal, but an equipment calibration standard and set of shortwave propagation beacons too.  Some are calling this a "nostalgia and legacy system," but as a ground-based backup for GPS time signals, $6m is a drop in the bucket.  Furthermore, we're not sure how many embedded systems rely on these signals for synchronization, so in the event of a shut-down we may (stress may) be facing a sort of mini-Y2K situation.  At very least, that clock way up high on Grandma's wall will start drifting, and she'll be bugging you once a month to come over with a ladder and set the darned thing.

It is $6m dollars, and I'm all for cutting the Federal budget to the bone.  OTOH, this is into the bone right here, and it divides out to a big $0.02 per person.  And, unlike so much Fed spending, this one is (sort of) authorized in the Constitution:
Quote
To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;
  Works for my libertarian soul.  If you are inclined at all to write your congresscritter, now's a pretty good time.
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: iam4liberty on September 24, 2018, 09:11:55 PM
This is a bummer as It is my favorite time sync as my little handheld yaesu can tune multiple of the signals.  But i do understand it.  It isnt just redundant with GPS, it is redundant with over ethernet synchronization too.  And that can comes directly from the NIST.  Syncing can come through app, browser, or through OS via time server.

And we are in a time reference rennaisance.  For a few hundred dollars an individual or institution can buy an oven controlled crystal oscillator based clock calibrated at factory to an atomic clock which is accurate to seconds within a couple decades.  Or you can buy an atomic clock itself (not signal synched, an actual atomic clock).  My christmas wish list has a brg precision double oven multi-zone (local, utc, sidereal) on it.  But I dont think I have been that good.  ;) 

http://www.brgprecision.com/products/accuracy.php (http://www.brgprecision.com/products/accuracy.php)
http://www.brgprecision.com/products/time_zone_displays/TZfixed.php (http://www.brgprecision.com/products/time_zone_displays/TZfixed.php)

Heck, for about a hundred dollars one can buy a high accurate quartz wristwatch with accuracy to under 20 seconds a year.  Heck, a saw a bulova uhf (ultra high frequency) at walmart for $120. 
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: FreeLancer on September 24, 2018, 10:20:42 PM
Manually syncing all my clocks and watches is going to f-ing suck.
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: iam4liberty on September 24, 2018, 10:30:21 PM
Manually syncing all my clocks and watches is going to f-ing suck.

I am sure some crafty individuals will make low power transmiter hooked to raspberry pi with ethernet sync to send super low power signal themselves.   :-X
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: FreeLancer on September 25, 2018, 12:41:39 AM
I'd do it.

As long as it doesn't take a 5000m dipole.

What kind of antenna would it take to mimic WWVB's 60khz low power signal at home? 
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: Alan Georges on September 25, 2018, 04:54:50 AM
What kind of antenna would it take to mimic WWVB's 60khz low power signal at home? 
This project just used a short wire:
https://www.instructables.com/id/WWVB-radio-time-signal-generator-for-ATTINY45-or-A/
and this project re-purposed a loopstick:
https://www.anishathalye.com/2016/12/26/micro-wwvb/
At low powers and short ranges, antenna matching isn't any big deal.

So, it's been done before.  If WWVB goes SK, I'm sure there'll be a small cottage industry selling "clock setters" on eBay.
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: Carl on September 25, 2018, 05:00:33 AM
WWVB could be synced and transmitted over power-line on a small budget.
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: iam4liberty on September 25, 2018, 07:58:58 AM
Looks like there has already been a market for such devices driven by people in countries without signal reception (like Australia).  For example: https://unusualelectronics.co.uk/products/chronvertor/ (https://unusualelectronics.co.uk/products/chronvertor/).  For some it can be done using just a PC and some wire.  http://www.jrcomputing.com.au/Set_Watch/Set_Watch_Auto.html (http://www.jrcomputing.com.au/Set_Watch/Set_Watch_Auto.html)  Very clever thinking here.
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: Mr. Bill on September 25, 2018, 08:46:04 AM
 :facepalm: :pissed: :banghead:

That's just brilliant.  Every household "atomic clock" becomes worthless.

I have a feeling this'll get reversed when the manufacturers raise a stink.  But we'll see.
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: FreeLancer on September 25, 2018, 04:34:15 PM
For some it can be done using just a PC and some wire.  http://www.jrcomputing.com.au/Set_Watch/Set_Watch_Auto.html (http://www.jrcomputing.com.au/Set_Watch/Set_Watch_Auto.html)  Very clever thinking here.

That’s pretty damn clever! 

Hands down the simplest way to at least keep my Japanese solar watches functioning as intended, post-WWVB. Clocks costing 10’s of dollars are less painful to replace than watches costing 100’s.
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: iam4liberty on September 25, 2018, 05:29:22 PM
I have a feeling this'll get reversed when the manufacturers raise a stink.  But we'll see.

In many ways it is planned obsolescence. The NIST, USNO, and others did an amazing job quantifying internet lag times to create algotithms that could synchronize times for the "internet of things".  Compare this to your radio syncronized atomic clock: https://time.gov/widget/widget.html (https://time.gov/widget/widget.html) 

The use of this technology has exploded and is being embedded in virtually every device.  The users of the broadcast service is so small in comparison.

(https://www.nist.gov/sites/default/files/images/pml/div688/16pml006_its_infographic_final_hr.png)

I doubt most manufacturers mind much as people will just switch to devices using the other technology.  Heck, there may even be a bump in sales as people switch out.
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: Carl on September 25, 2018, 11:48:45 PM
  WHAT....and do without an internet synchronized toilet????
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: iam4liberty on September 26, 2018, 06:58:50 AM
  WHAT....and do without an internet synchronized toilet????

Toilet accuracy is very important!   ;D
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: FreeLancer on September 27, 2018, 02:17:48 AM
I found an easy solution in a $2 iPhone app called Clock Wave (https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/clock-wave/id1073576068?mt=8)

All you have to do is open the app and turn the volume all the way up before hitting a button on the screen to start transmitting the signal.  The clock/watch needs to be close to the phone speakers and no headphone/antenna is necessary.  There's an audible ticking noise when transmitting, but nothing too annoying. 

You have the option of specifying which of the 6 world time signal stations to emulate, or just leave it on auto and it will pick the appropriate one for the timezone the phone is operating in.  The only other setting you can change is whether it automatically stops transmitting after 10 minutes, in case you want to start the process and not wait around for it to finish syncing.

The three watches and cheap travel clock I tried it out on all synced within 4 minutes.  The signal strengths within a few inches of the iPhone's speaker was at least level 3 for all the devices and I had no problems syncing them all together simultaneously.
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: iam4liberty on September 27, 2018, 07:10:53 AM
Ah, fun app, Frelancer! There is a thread at the watchuseek forum.  Pumping it into a simple loop antenna (old AM radio or just coiled wire) seems to produce really good signal and no sound.

(https://forums.watchuseek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=13022445&stc=1&d=1522513286)

There is slso reportedly an app on android for watches which can receive JJY (Japan) signal.
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: FreeLancer on September 27, 2018, 08:07:33 AM
There is slso reportedly an app on android for watches which can receive JJY (Japan) signal.

That’s where I started, actually downloaded and ran it on a chrome book, but it’s all in Japanese and online instructions made it sound like the time zones on the watch would have to be changed to Tokyo and it just sounded like a pain in the ass.  So I replaced JJY with WWVB in my search terms and stumbled on to this app, which will do JJY, WWVB, DCF77, and whatever the other 3 are.
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: iam4liberty on September 27, 2018, 08:21:14 AM
That’s where I started, actually downloaded and ran it on a chrome book, but it’s all in Japanese and online instructions made it sound like the time zones on the watch would have to be changed to Tokyo and it just sounded like a pain in the ass.  So I replaced JJY with WWVB in my search terms and stumbled on to this app, which will do JJY, WWVB, DCF77, and whatever the other 3 are.

Sounds like a business opportunity for someone versed in android app development...
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: FreeLancer on September 27, 2018, 04:08:00 PM
Here's a video of the Clock Wave app synchronizing a typical clock:  https://youtu.be/eGasNo4zjbg (https://youtu.be/eGasNo4zjbg)

It's kind of funny because he predicts it will only take one minute to synchronize, and then has to fast forward through to the 3 minute mark before it actually happens.  That's consistent with my experience, where even my more reliably sensitive devices seem to stay in receive mode for at least 3 minutes before completing the sync process, and none that I've tested go past the 4 minute mark, although there are apparently some devices that are programmed to attempt synchronizing for up to 10 minutes before giving up.
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: FreeLancer on September 27, 2018, 04:22:37 PM
Here's a video from the developer:  https://youtu.be/T_f0-qj3R5E (https://youtu.be/T_f0-qj3R5E)

It looks like his Casio synced in less than 3 minutes.
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: iam4liberty on September 27, 2018, 04:49:43 PM
Here's a video from the developer:  https://youtu.be/T_f0-qj3R5E (https://youtu.be/T_f0-qj3R5E)

It looks like his Casio synced in less than 3 minutes.

The person on the watchuseek forum who used the loop antenna said this regarding time to sync:

Using the phone's speakers it takes about 5-7 minutes to get a successful update on any of the watches. I have an old AM loop antenna that I put a 1/8" phono connector on so I could plug it into the headphone port on the phone. Using this antenna the updates take only 1-2 minutes now. And I can update multiple watches at the same time.

Probably what is happening is that it is dropping one of the bits every so often and so has to confirm with another string.  would be interesting to see algorithm the watches use for checking stream.  I would imagine it would have an integrity check so the time isnt set by a faulty time read.
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: Carl on September 28, 2018, 05:50:11 AM
The person on the watchuseek forum who used the loop antenna said this regarding time to sync:

Using the phone's speakers it takes about 5-7 minutes to get a successful update on any of the watches. I have an old AM loop antenna that I put a 1/8" phono connector on so I could plug it into the headphone port on the phone. Using this antenna the updates take only 1-2 minutes now. And I can update multiple watches at the same time.

Probably what is happening is that it is dropping one of the bits every so often and so has to confirm with another string.  would be interesting to see algorithm the watches use for checking stream.  I would imagine it would have an integrity check so the time isnt set by a faulty time read.

Get a big enough antenna and you can synchronize the world   :tinfoily:
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: FreeLancer on September 29, 2018, 02:20:45 AM
This guy ain't gonna be too happy about WWVB going away:  http://www.arrl.org/files/file/QEX_Next_Issue/2015/Nov-Dec_2015/Magliacane.pdf (http://www.arrl.org/files/file/QEX_Next_Issue/2015/Nov-Dec_2015/Magliacane.pdf)


(https://www.qsl.net/kd2bd/freq_standard.jpg)
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: iam4liberty on September 29, 2018, 08:26:13 AM
This guy ain't gonna be too happy about WWVB going away:

Great article. Thanks for posting. From ending statement he realized that it was being supplanted by newer technology but hoped it could still find a way to justify itself.  He suggested it as a back-up to gps for engineering and science projects but that is now superflous given NIST internet feed available from every internet connected device. 

While some may question the merit of employing WWVB as a frequency reference at a time when GPS-disciplined frequency standards are so ubiquitous, similar questions could be raised about the relevance of the Amateur Radio Service in a world dominated by cellphones and the Internet. The frequency standard described here employs a “purely RF” approach toward disciplining a local oscillator against an extremely accurate national atomic standard. It was developed not only to create a laboratory grade frequency standard, but to do so while pursuing a life-long interest and fascination with the underlying radio concepts that make such a process possible. Figure 21 shows a reception QSL that I received from WWVB in 2003.

While not a state-of-the-art device by twenty first century standards, the frequency reference described here will likely provide more than adequate performance for many modern engineering, research, and scientific purposes. For those possessing GPS-disciplined standards, this frequency standard can provide a reliable sanity check as well as a redundant backup.The recent changes made to the WWVB broadcasts by the National Institute of Standards and Technology have been unset-tling for some individuals. What these
actions reveal, however, is that while the WWVB primary role is changing, it is changing because its use is growing, and this growth will help ensure there is strong support for keeping WWVB on the air for
decades to come. See you in the next FMT[


Changing gears, here is another post from a person who made an arduino based time reference which updates its time from internet atomic clock servers and broadcasts the update signal for radio control clocks for about half a meter.  It keeps devices updated to within about 100 microseconds.

https://forums.watchuseek.com/f9/diy-haq-clock-1085096.html (https://forums.watchuseek.com/f9/diy-haq-clock-1085096.html)

I know the law allows for localized transmissions of rf like this on restricted frequencies.  I believe they measure compliance as x power y distance away from transmitter.  Does anyone know the rules?
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: iam4liberty on September 29, 2018, 08:35:19 AM
https://www.coloradoan.com/story/news/2018/09/22/fort-collins-budget-cuts-time-day-radio-broadcasts-could-go-silent/1352761002/ (https://www.coloradoan.com/story/news/2018/09/22/fort-collins-budget-cuts-time-day-radio-broadcasts-could-go-silent/1352761002/)

Cited petition failed to meet minimum signiatures: https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/maintain-funding-nist-stations-wwv-wwvh (https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/maintain-funding-nist-stations-wwv-wwvh)
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: FreeLancer on September 29, 2018, 02:15:22 PM
I know the law allows for localized transmissions of rf like this on restricted frequencies.  I believe they measure compliance as x power y distance away from transmitter.  Does anyone know the rules?

Somewhere I read that the limit is 40 microvolts per meter at 300 meters.

Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: Bradbn4 on September 29, 2018, 06:22:14 PM
I am sure some crafty individuals will make low power transmitter hooked to raspberry pi with ethernet sync to send super low power signal themselves.   :-X

They have and you can make a mighty fine NTP server based on that hardware.  All of the equipment including the Raspberry pi & GPS receiver is under 100 dollars.

Most if not all of the parts can be obtained from Ada Fruit & Spark Fun.  One of these days I will assemble the hardware and give it a spin.

So it is quite easy and sort of "cheap" to get a stratum 2 NTP time source. The only software defined transmitters I have found cost a bit of money. Ok, the transmitter it is not that expensive, but a bit more than I am willing to shell out of pocket right now. 
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: FreeLancer on September 30, 2018, 04:02:33 PM
Somewhere I read that the limit is 40 microvolts per meter at 300 meters.

Found it.

and this project re-purposed a loopstick:
https://www.anishathalye.com/2016/12/26/micro-wwvb/

Quote
Legality

Building a WWVB emulator involves transmitting on 60 kHz. In general, it’s not legal to broadcast on arbitrary frequencies at an arbitrary transmit power, because transmissions cause interference. Many parts of the radio spectrum are already in use, as allocated by the Federal Communications Commission (FCC).

Luckily, the FCC grants exemptions for certain unlicensed transmissions, as specified by 47 CFR 15. This is explained in some detail in “Understanding the FCC Regulations for Low-Power Non-Licensed Transmitters”.

Transmitters in the 60 kHz band are allowed, and the emission limit at that frequency is given in 47 CFR 15.209. As long as the field strength is under 40 μV/m
as measured at 300 meters, it’s fine.
In my use case, I have the transmitter within a couple inches of the receiver in my wristwatch, so I don’t need to transmit at a high power.
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: FreeLancer on September 30, 2018, 04:26:28 PM
The WWVB broadcast coverage area is defined as those regions receiving a signal strength of at least 100 microvolts per meter:  https://tf.nist.gov/stations/wwvbcoverage.htm (https://tf.nist.gov/stations/wwvbcoverage.htm)

(https://tf.nist.gov/images/radiostations/wwvb-large/0800utc.jpg)





WWVB Radio Controlled Clocks:  Recommended Practices for Manufacturers and Consumers (2009 Edition) (https://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/2422.pdf)

Quote
8.A. Receiver Specifications
Complete receiver specifications are beyond the scope of this document,
but the minimum goal of the manufacturer should be to include a receiver
and antenna sufficiently sensitive to work anywhere within the CONUS
during the nighttime hours.  We recommend that RCC products should
be sensitive enough to successfully synchronize to signals from WWVB
with a field strength of 50 μV/m, if the signal to noise ratio exceeds 20
dB.
  The RF bandwidth of the receiver should be narrow, typically ±10 Hz
or less.
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: iam4liberty on September 30, 2018, 09:20:38 PM
Excellent information!

Had a little while to play around today so i thought i would make a replacement for my RF synched clock.  I have a rugged (waterproof, gorilla glass) but outdated android phone i wasnt using.  It came with a charging stand to act as an alarm clock and for years i used it as such.  So thought that would be excellent for an online (in my case via wifi) synched clock. 

First I had to root it so that programs could modify the time.  In android this is considered a security item so it needs superuser status to do.  After that i turned off the automatic time updating. I then added the ClockSync app from the play store.  This app connects to the atomic clock pool, measures network latency, and adjusts the system time accordingly.  I set it to update every 15 minutes at high precision which averages across multiple reads.  This keeps the time to within a guestimated 0.05 to 0.10 seconds.  Here it is next to my RF synched clock.

(http://www.libertyassociate.com/survival_podcast/Clock/clockcompare.jpg)

Now the reason i wanted to modify the system time rather than just display the atomic time was to enable the use of other clock programs.  One of my favorites is the Observatory Clock app.  This gives a lot of other times I use such as UTC, sidereal time (for finding stars), Julian Date, day number, moon phase, etc.  It outputs in a low level red which maintains night vision for star watching.  Since my setup still has a battery, i can just grab it when I go out watching.  I snapoed a picture and managed to get it right when changing (which isnt visible otherwise).

(http://www.libertyassociate.com/survival_podcast/Clock/observatoryclock.jpg)

All in all this is looking to be a good option.  It should be a lot more reliable in updating than the RF clock during times when propogation is bad.  So definitely a lemonade out of lemons situation.
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: FreeLancer on October 02, 2018, 03:38:58 PM
Now the reason i wanted to modify the system time rather than just display the atomic time was to enable the use of other clock programs.  One of my favorites is the Observatory Clock app.  This gives a lot of other times I use such as UTC, sidereal time (for finding stars), Julian Date, day number, moon phase, etc.  It outputs in a low level red which maintains night vision for star watching.  Since my setup still has a battery, i can just grab it when I go out watching. 

That's a cool app! 


The closest thing I've been able to find in the iOS world is the Emerald Observatory.

(http://emeraldsequoia.com/eo/Observatory-1-full.png)

I don't know what 90% of it means, but it's mesmerizing to look at, and it allows you to simulate various astronomical events.



On the WWVB front......

(https://www.dhresource.com/0x0s/f2-albu-g5-M01-04-F5-rBVaJFhhAqeAR3duAAHrDw5LndA728.jpg/wholesale-tecsun-an-100-gain-loop-radio-antenna.jpg)


I got a Tecsun AM loop antenna and experimented with transmitting the Clock Wave app signal via the phone's audio jack.

Amazingly, I was able to sync all my devices at a distance of 25m inside my house, through one interior wall even, with the devices reporting the signal as full strength.  However, it appears the devices must be aligned within a few degrees perpendicular to the plane of the loop.  More than 5 degrees outside of that orientation the sync would fail, despite the devices reporting full receive strength of the signal.  I couldn't tell that adjusting the tuning dial on the Tecsun made any difference.

I had considered trying to make a larger loop antenna out of ribbon cable, but kind of doubt it's worth the effort, especially if it remains that directional.  Ideally it would be nice to have an antenna that was capable of 20 degrees either side of perpendicular, so I could put it at one corner of the house and broadcast the signal overnight and all the devices could sync in place as they normally do.
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: iam4liberty on October 03, 2018, 06:17:39 PM
That's a cool app! 

The closest thing I've been able to find in the iOS world is the Emerald Observatory.

Observatory Clock is very useful too. It allows you tap to set marks for navigation.  The only wish I have is that it incorporated solar data rather than martian time.  Local apparent solar time (where sun actually is in sky) and sunrise/sunset (which along with moon phase tells you when/how dark night will be) would really be helpful.

The app you show is pretty cool.  It tells you:

UTC - Universal Coordinated Time.  Very useful for talking with people around the world.

Sidereal time.  This tells you where the stars are in the sky.  The stars rotate around the earth more quickly than the sun by about 4 minutes.  This is because earth not only rotates (23 hours 56 minutes) but orbits sun (adds 4 more minutes to face sun).

(https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-bbd0142bbbfebf9e273423704719cbab)

Solar time is probably the apparent solar time.  Clock time is actually a mean (average) solar time. Primarily because the Earth is tilted relative to its orbit and the orbit is an ellipse (vs a perfect circle) the sun runs ahead or behind clock time depending on time of year. This difference is called the equation of time.  This tells us how sundials compare to clocks.  This is explicitely given in bottom right corner of app.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/02/Tijdvereffening-equation_of_time-en.jpg/310px-Tijdvereffening-equation_of_time-en.jpg)

The sun azimuth and altitude tells where the sun is in sky on its east/west path and how high (angle) it is in the sky. This last also changes due to tilt of earth. This is called declination and follows a pattern like this:

(http://www.physicalgeography.net/fundamentals/images/declination.jpg)

They are also showing planet postions relative to stars and moon relative to sun around the clock dial.

Net, there are thousands of years of astronomical knowledge embedded in that clock!  With it you know the position of the celestial bodies.

I got a Tecsun AM loop antenna and experimented with transmitting the Clock Wave app signal via the phone's audio jack.

Amazingly, I was able to sync all my devices at a distance of 25m inside my house, through one interior wall even, with the devices reporting the signal as full strength.  However, it appears the devices must be aligned within a few degrees perpendicular to the plane of the loop.  More than 5 degrees outside of that orientation the sync would fail, despite the devices reporting full receive strength of the signal.  I couldn't tell that adjusting the tuning dial on the Tecsun made any difference.

I had considered trying to make a larger loop antenna out of ribbon cable, but kind of doubt it's worth the effort, especially if it remains that directional.  Ideally it would be nice to have an antenna that was capable of 20 degrees either side of perpendicular, so I could put it at one corner of the house and broadcast the signal overnight and all the devices could sync in place as they normally do.

Wow!  I think you have the record now.  You made short work of that problem.  I wonder how much the price will fall on the clocks/watches if the cuts go through?  Maybe these will become steals because people wont know how to sync them.


Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: FreeLancer on October 03, 2018, 09:54:43 PM
Wow!  I think you have the record now.  You made short work of that problem.  I wonder how much the price will fall on the clocks/watches if the cuts go through?  Maybe these will become steals because people wont know how to sync them.

Yeah, canceling WWVB got me all worked up because it's not even two years since I finally found the perfect watch, all the way from Japan.  For me it's the ideal boring "gray man" watch with analog-only display, solar power, and multi-band 6 synchronization.  The only time have to touch it is to move the timezone when traveling, otherwise I know that the date and time are perfectly spot on every day of the year.  So being able to continue sync it with something as simple as a phone app through the speakers makes me very happy. 

I don't care nearly so much about my other clocks and watches becoming obsolete, I'll happily replace them with WiFi, Bluetooth, GPS, whatever technology comes next.  But being be able to sync them, too, with an AM loop, at a significant distance, is icing on the cake. 

I worry, though, about whether I may be transmitting more than the legal limit of 40 μV/m at 300m.  Receiving a full-strength strength signal at 25m, through a wall, kinda makes me wonder.......   
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: FreeLancer on October 04, 2018, 05:09:26 PM
My christmas wish list has a brg precision double oven multi-zone (local, utc, sidereal) on it. 

Which one is that?
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: iam4liberty on October 04, 2018, 10:35:00 PM
Which one is that?

There are several different.  My favorite (but super expensive) is 6618J.  This is day, date, day number topline and three zones underneith. You can then flip through 5 sets of zones!   It comes standard with OCXO Oscillator accurate to 1 second in 20 years but i was looking to custom upgrade to 1/10th of a second over 20 years.  Only problem (besides price!) is that oven controlled oscillators are power hogs.  They need to maintain temperatures in hundreds of degrees for maximum stability.  But a prepper can wish, no?  Here is the video:

http://www.brgprecision.com/phpinclude/tz_program/style6618/BRG%20Precision%20Product's%206618J%20-%203%20Zone,%20Programmable%20Time%20Zone%20Clock.mp4 (http://www.brgprecision.com/phpinclude/tz_program/style6618/BRG%20Precision%20Product's%206618J%20-%203%20Zone,%20Programmable%20Time%20Zone%20Clock.mp4)

I worry, though, about whether I may be transmitting more than the legal limit of 40 μV/m at 300m.  Receiving a full-strength strength signal at 25m, through a wall, kinda makes me wonder.......   

If I understand the reception specs, the time pieces are supposed to be able to read a signal down to at least 50 μV/m in strength.  So if they dont sync at, say, 200 meters from antenna chances are slim that you broadcasting at 40 μV/m at 300m. 
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: iam4liberty on October 05, 2018, 11:08:48 AM
One disadvantage I should mention about high precision disconnected clocks is that they do not update automatically for the occasional leap second.  The earth is going through some internal geological/geographical changes as of late which is impacting the rotation around its axis.  So we have to add (or subtract) seconds every so often to match atomic clock time with the astronomical times.  While models are very poor predictors of this, it is likely we will have another coming up in the next five years. The connected clocks have a provision for doing this, so they will be correct.  But the non-connected clocks will be off if not manually adjusted.
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: FreeLancer on October 05, 2018, 01:43:34 PM
How about a GPS disciplined NTP server for your home network?
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: Carl on October 06, 2018, 05:04:07 AM
I feel like the odd man out when I ask Why is such accuracy of time needed by the average person??  I often don't even keep track of what day it is.
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: Redman on October 06, 2018, 06:24:47 AM
I feel like the odd man out when I ask Why is such accuracy of time needed by the average person??  I often don't even keep track of what day it is.

^^^^^ This

Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: Alan Georges on October 06, 2018, 07:24:25 AM
Very good point Carl, thanks for bringing things back around.

So... for all the digital ink spilled here, how many have written congress urging them to keep WWV on the air?  It's still not too late, and it takes all of 5 minutes to look up your Rep's and Sens' web contact pages and type a short, polite note to keep WWV, WWVB, and WWVH funded.
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: Redman on October 06, 2018, 07:37:29 AM
In the line of Carl's post I just labeled a bunch of stuff I canned yesterday. Got through applying the labels and looked at a calendar. I had pre-dated them by a week and a half.  :facepalm: :rofl: Just going to leave as is.
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: iam4liberty on October 06, 2018, 08:37:01 AM
The average person or the average prepper?  Personally, I think navigation is an important skill for a prepper to have.  Depending solely on gps is a bit risky IMO. I like being able to navigate on land, sea, and air by star and sun positions.

A time reference is critical for measuring the error of your other time pieces.  If your doing navigation, you should know how accurate your time piece is (both systematic and random drift). This is done by tracking its performance to a reference.  To put it into perspective, every second not corrected is approximately a quarter mile error.

Another example is being able to predict satellite positions to bounce signals off of them.  The window of opportunity is small so you really dont want time errors in calculation.

These are just a couple of the practical applications.

So... for all the digital ink spilled here, how many have written congress urging them to keep WWV on the air?  It's still not too late, and it takes all of 5 minutes to look up your Rep's and Sens' web contact pages and type a short, polite note to keep WWV, WWVB, and WWVH funded.

I am not sure it is worth saving. WWVB is insufficient even with the recent improvements. From NIST report It looks like they are leaning more towards eLORAN and PTP being potentially better backup time systems to GPS: https://dx.doi.org/10.6028/NIST.SP.1500-12 (https://dx.doi.org/10.6028/NIST.SP.1500-12)
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: Redman on October 06, 2018, 09:06:28 AM

  If your doing navigation, you should know how accurate your time piece is (both systematic and random drift). This is done by tracking its performance to a reference.  To put it into perspective, every second not corrected is approximately a quarter mile error.


Just an observation/question here. What and how accurate were the early timepieces used for celestial navigation. I learned a little celestial navigation in the 70's and we were taught that if you knew your position within a quarter mile you would usually be OK because you could see where you expected to be. This was navigation on the water with a sextant and wrist watch. Granted that if there was no land insight that was different. GPS did not or just barely existed then. Loran did exist but may not even have had full coverage I don't remember.
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: Carl on October 06, 2018, 09:08:22 AM
In the line of Carl's post I just labeled a bunch of stuff I canned yesterday. Got through applying the labels and looked at a calendar. I had pre-dated them by a week and a half.  :facepalm: :rofl: Just going to leave as is.

Optimism is a good thing!
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: FreeLancer on October 06, 2018, 10:26:22 AM
Just an observation/question here. What and how accurate were the early timepieces used for celestial navigation.

300 years ago, the Longitude Prize was offered for the invention of a timepiece with an accuracy of less than 3 seconds per day over a 6 week voyage.
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: iam4liberty on October 06, 2018, 10:45:10 PM
The most expensive piece of equipment by far that Lewis and Clark had on their expedition was a chronometer (clock).  It was one key to the success of their mission.  They used careful measurement of the sun as a time reference to check it.  It consistently lost 15 to 20 seconds each day.

Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: Redman on October 07, 2018, 04:03:01 AM
Interesting info here. I had not studied the subject that much.
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: Carl on October 07, 2018, 10:22:52 AM
The most expensive piece of equipment by far that Lewis and Clark had on their expedition was a chronometer (clock).  It was one key to the success of their mission.  They used careful measurement of the sun as a time reference to check it.  It consistently lost 15 to 20 seconds each day.

They had some good air rifles and plastic beads too...but yes , a good timepiece was worth major money in the past....today the value is in tennis shoes....
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: FreeLancer on October 07, 2018, 10:11:40 PM
200 years ago, the British Admiralty payed 25oz of gold ($30,000 today) per marine chronometer, and they'd usually need three or more per ship, depending the nature of the voyage, to detect if one of them quit working properly.  The HMS Beagle carried over 20 chronometers on its voyage around the world, which succeeded in establishing a linked chain of reference points around the globe of known longitude which could be used by subsequent voyages to calibrate their own chronometers.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/ce/British_Museum_Marine_Chronometer.jpg/220px-British_Museum_Marine_Chronometer.jpg)
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: iam4liberty on October 07, 2018, 10:36:30 PM
Apparently it is NIST itself which is asking to stop operation of the radio stations.  They cut it from their budget requests.  See here for example:

https://www.g-central.com/usa-multi-band-6-wwvb-station-faces-possible-shutdown/ (https://www.g-central.com/usa-multi-band-6-wwvb-station-faces-possible-shutdown/)

So it seems clear that the WWVB station is being targeted by this proposal and that the WWV and WWHV stations are likely targets as well. At this stage, the cuts are just a proposal and will need approval from Congress before being implemented. As to why the NIST wants to shut down the radio stations, it apparently believes they are no longer essential and are becoming obsolete due to newer technologies.

Maybe the best path forward is to have the house ask NIST to clarify why they feel operation should stop?  You would think NIST would be more transparent on this; for example giving definitive statement on which technology they are promoting.
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: Alan Georges on October 08, 2018, 06:22:06 AM
Sometimes agencies will play financial chicken with their budgets.  By protecting some programs and offering up more well-known and popular items for cuts, an agency can try to buffalo congress into somehow finding the money at the last minute to keep all the programs funded.

This WWV case may – I stress may – be an example.  However the response from hams and the SWL community has been lukewarm.  Also, I haven't noticed any watch manufacturers riding to the rescue, although that could well be invisible from outside the beltway.  Most self-setting clock users won't even notice until things start drifting noticeably sometime next year.   Maybe NIST's management miscalculated this one.
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: Carl on October 08, 2018, 06:44:34 AM
 What popular watch company will pick up the ball and become the next APPLE???
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: iam4liberty on October 08, 2018, 07:44:59 AM
Sometimes agencies will play financial chicken with their budgets.  By protecting some programs and offering up more well-known and popular items for cuts, an agency can try to buffalo congress into somehow finding the money at the last minute to keep all the programs funded.

This WWV case may – I stress may – be an example.  However the response from hams and the SWL community has been lukewarm.  Also, I haven't noticed any watch manufacturers riding to the rescue, although that could well be invisible from outside the beltway.  Most self-setting clock users won't even notice until things start drifting noticeably sometime next year.   Maybe NIST's management miscalculated this one.

I dont think the watch makers care now.  It isnt a core technology, but rather just a nice to have stopgap for a decade while they advanced thier owned technology.

Biggest problem is that GPS is a better RF technology.  It is more robust in that it has multiple redundant stations transmitting simultaneously vs single ground installation.  And it provides better reception because of antenna height.  And it provides a much better coverage area.  Some in SWL and Ham community push the stations as a backup to GPS.  But as shown it is a poor backup as it suffers from the same threats as GPS but worse (ie solar activity, physical attack, and spoofing). And it is a distant choice in popularity of use, NTP, and celluar are all more actively used as time reference sources. And their main partner, USNO, really seems to think a new LORAN system is critical infrastructure.  NIST has heavily promoted this in congress as it would design the microchip:

https://rntfnd.org/2016/02/11/will-fund-eloran-on-a-chip-nist/ (https://rntfnd.org/2016/02/11/will-fund-eloran-on-a-chip-nist/)
“Will Fund eLoran on a Chip” – NIST

Last week the National Institute of Standards and Technology announced that it wanted to fund development of an eLoran receiver that would fit on a microchip and could be easily incorporated into a variety of systems.

The agency said its interest in this project was “… to help facilitate the broad dissemination of precise, accurate time standards and to provide robustness and resilience for critical cyber physical systems.” NIST is also responsible for the nation’s “Cyber Security Framework.”

In the announcement the agency explained the government’s concern and rationale (numbers indicate footnotes):

“The Global Positioning System (GPS) is used for a myriad of innovative—and now, essential—applications that were not envisioned when the system was first designed [1]. The Department of Homeland Security reports that of their 18 defined areas of U.S. critical infrastructure (e.g., communications, transportation, and energy), 16 of them rely on GPS for precision timing and synchronization in their system operations [2]. However, the GPS signal is exceedingly weak, and it is vulnerable to interference, both accidental and deliberate.

Programs have been proposed to provide resilience to the many modern cyber physical systems that rely on GPS for timing data. One that is often suggested is “eLoran,” which could augment GPS by providing a complementary data transmission channel for timing and more [3–8].”


Net, I am getting impression the scientists at NIST dont feel that the stations match its mandate any longer and want to focus limited resources on projects with greater impact.
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: iam4liberty on October 08, 2018, 10:41:37 AM
More background.

NIST Information Technology Laboratory Priority List:

https://www.nist.gov/itl/itl-priority-areas (https://www.nist.gov/itl/itl-priority-areas)
ITL Priority Areas
Cybersecurity
Internet of Things
Artificial Intelligence
Reliable Computing (coming soon)
Future Computing Technologies and Applications (coming soon)


GPS Vulnerability:

https://www.chron.com/techburger/article/GPS-system-highly-vulnerable-with-no-backups-13230614.php (https://www.chron.com/techburger/article/GPS-system-highly-vulnerable-with-no-backups-13230614.php)
GPS system highly vulnerable, with no backups, says Paul Hobby

Hobby cited a recently declassified, 219-page assessment of the risks to GPS prepared by the Department of Homeland Security. According to that document, the biggest risk to the system would be GPS jammers, a technology that exists and is relatively inexpensive to procure.
...
Hobby talked about a 2013 case in which the owner of a pickup truck equipped with an inexpensive GPS jammer - which is illegal - was parked near Newark International Airport. The man was trying to block a GPS reporting system his employer installed in the pickup so his boss wouldn’t know where he was. The jammer caused interference with the airport’s GPS-based system that helps aircraft take off and land.

“If one trucker with a scurrilous but relatively benign attempt to deceive his employer can bring down Newark Airport, imagine what a larger-scale attack could do,” Hobby said.
...
The most promising plan is to restore and enhance a ground-based system once used by aviation and maritime operations. LORAN, which stands for Long Range Navigation, was radio-based and dates back to World War II. It was in use until 2010 when it was shut down and replaced with GPS services. Hobby said efforts are underway to restore the system with more modern technology. It is being rebranded as eLoran.

“eLoran is virtually immune to the weakness of GPS,” Hobby said.


Practical case, eLORAN in South Korea:

http://insidegnss.com/south-korea-to-make-waze-other-navigation-more-efficient-with-eloran/ (http://insidegnss.com/south-korea-to-make-waze-other-navigation-more-efficient-with-eloran/)
South Korea to Make Waze, other Navigation, More Efficient with eLoran

Hopping in the car and firing up the navigation system, only to have it take you in precisely the wrong direction while it gets its bearings, will be a thing of the past for South Korean users of combined GPS/eLoran navigation systems when the nation’s new eLoran network comes on line in 2020.

One of the biggest shortcomings of satellite-based navigation systems is that receivers sometimes take a while to initialize and, unless the receiver is moving, they don’t know which direction they are facing.
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: iam4liberty on October 08, 2018, 11:10:05 AM
Ok, I am now 99% sure this is the direction they believe we should go:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/2105.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjlnerpqffdAhVm0oMKHcfhB3sQFjAAegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw2nobuIZiX5xySHEDs9E7Je (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/2105.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjlnerpqffdAhVm0oMKHcfhB3sQFjAAegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw2nobuIZiX5xySHEDs9E7Je)
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: Alan Georges on October 08, 2018, 05:04:14 PM
Ok, I am now 99% sure this is the direction they believe we should go:
Hm, I do believe that you are correct about this.  Well, we'll have to wait and see how this one washes out in the new budget.

I wonder how loud when the shouts will be when Granny's auto-set clock starts to drift?  "What?  They turned off what?  Who knew!"  I expect we'll see it in the news for exactly one day, then the whole thing will be gone.
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: FreeLancer on October 08, 2018, 05:32:02 PM
Maybe, maybe not.....

https://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-talk/telecom/wireless/longrunning-us-federal-radio-stations-beloved-by-hams-are-in-danger-of-shutdown (https://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-talk/telecom/wireless/longrunning-us-federal-radio-stations-beloved-by-hams-are-in-danger-of-shutdown)

Quote
What’s more, the nonradio alternatives just aren’t reliable, says John Lowe, station manager for WWVB and its sister high-frequency stations WWV, also in Fort Collins, and WWVH out of Kauai.

Internet connections aren’t available everywhere. And “GPS does not penetrate into buildings, which is an obvious problem,” Lowe says. “Plus, it’s vulnerable, as it’s prone to jamming as well as spoofing.”


Quote
But, at least as written in the NIST budget plan, these airwaves are slated to go silent. So is Lowe worried about his job? “I am not,” he says flatly.

Lowe points out that it’s only the presidential budget proposal that suggests cuts to NIST; the House and Senate proposals both leave the agency’s budget intact. Plus, the WWV stations have survived similar presidential proposals before, he adds.
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: iam4liberty on October 08, 2018, 06:54:25 PM
Maybe, maybe not.....

https://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-talk/telecom/wireless/longrunning-us-federal-radio-stations-beloved-by-hams-are-in-danger-of-shutdown (https://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-talk/telecom/wireless/longrunning-us-federal-radio-stations-beloved-by-hams-are-in-danger-of-shutdown)

But that is part of it.  eLORAN is a radio technology.  It would use two to three dozen radio stations blanketing the US.  Each would have sizable antennas (up to 1400 feet) broadcasting at up to 4,000 Kilowatts.  Compare this to WWVB's 400 ft paired antennas quad arrays at 70 KW.  It would be compatible with GPS including implementations in friendly countries like South Korea and UK.  Eventually this would provide near global coverage of land, air, and sea.  It would have a frequency resolution passing the WVV stations. Each would also have three atomic clocks to ensure greater precision.   Because it is decentralized it would be robust to solar activity and most atracks. It also would provide coverage within buildings.  NIST would develop the chipset and pass this to the device manufacturers so they will have very low costs to implement within devices.

Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: FreeLancer on October 08, 2018, 07:08:40 PM
I don't disagree with eLoran, etc...  But if neither the House or Senate budget proposals show WWV/WWVB defunding, as the station manager says, what are the chances of it actually being cut?
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: Alan Georges on October 08, 2018, 07:40:15 PM
I don't disagree with eLoran, etc...  But if neither the House or Senate budget proposals show WWV/WWVB defunding, as the station manager says, what are the chances of it actually being cut?
Sometimes programs take a long time to wind down.  Look at the National Helium Reserve: established in 1925 to ensure a reliable supply for airships, continued as a helium coolant supply in 1960, etc., etc.  It's still in operation.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Helium_Reserve (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Helium_Reserve)
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: iam4liberty on October 08, 2018, 08:00:09 PM
Sometimes programs take a long time to wind down.  Look at the National Helium Reserve: established in 1925 to ensure a reliable supply for airships, continued as a helium coolant supply in 1960, etc., etc.  It's still in operation.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Helium_Reserve (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Helium_Reserve)

Exactly.

I dont think NIST has to worry too much. House passed law directing NIST to place another $1.2 Billion in quantum computing and communications over 10 years. Unbreakable encryption, faster than light speed communications here we come. And this is the lowest item on their priority list.  Compared to these initiatives what we are talking about is round off.  Congress also signalled they will fund agency well beyond requested budget.

https://www.top500.org/news/us-house-passes-bill-to-invest-more-than-12-billion-in-quantum-information-science/ (https://www.top500.org/news/us-house-passes-bill-to-invest-more-than-12-billion-in-quantum-information-science/)

US House Passes Bill to Invest More Than $1.2 Billion in Quantum Information Science

Known as the National Quantum Initiative Act, the bill defines a 10-year national strategy to advance quantum computing and communication technology through activities at the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST), the National Science Foundation (NSF), and the Department of Energy (DOE). The 10-year initiative is split into two five-year plans, the first of which will run from fiscal year 2019 to 2023.
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: FreeLancer on October 08, 2018, 09:04:20 PM
Well, if WWVB does go away, at least I've finally got the Tecsun loop dialed in to cover the whole house now. 

Setting the tuning knob in the middle appears to give the best compromise between directionality and signal strength.  I managed to sync from 30m through 5 walls at 30 degrees off perpendicular to the broadside of the loop.  My G-Shock GWM5610-1 seems to be the most reliable receiver, beating out the clocks with their larger antennas, as well as my two more expensive watches.
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: iam4liberty on October 08, 2018, 09:51:43 PM
Well, if WWVB does go away, at least I've finally got the Tecsun loop dialed in to cover the whole house now. 

Setting the tuning knob in the middle appears to give the best compromise between directionality and signal strength.  I managed to sync from 30m through 5 walls at 30 degrees off perpendicular to the broadside of the loop.  My G-Shock GWM5610-1 seems to be the most reliable receiver, beating out the clocks with their larger antennas, as well as my two more expensive watches.

Impressive job! I am sure your experience will help others if the phase out comes.  And you now have backup if solar weather impacts ability to get wvvb signal.

I am toying with idea of mirroring your work but tying it to a gps reference.  If prices drop on these clocks I will put them throughout house and have inexpensive masterclock system.

Nice choice on watch too.  Extremely capable timepiece there.  Tough solar is the bomb.  My travel watch is a Casio PAG 80T.  Steven Harris wears a PAG 240.  And Nutnfancy is also big fan of the casios.  They are quickly becoming the ubiquitous prepper watch.
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: FreeLancer on October 09, 2018, 01:38:58 AM
I am toying with idea of mirroring your work but tying it to a gps reference.  If prices drop on these clocks I will put them throughout house and have inexpensive masterclock system.

Yeah, I think that would be cool.  If you hook up a GPS tied NTP server as the primary time source on a home network, will WiFi devices connected to that network synchronize to the LAN time source instead of of the WAN?



Nice choice on watch too.  Extremely capable timepiece there.  Tough solar is the bomb.  My travel watch is a Casio PAG 80T.  Steven Harris wears a PAG 240.  And Nutnfancy is also big fan of the casios.  They are quickly becoming the ubiquitous prepper watch.


There's a lot to like about Casio watches right now.  You can drop anywhere from $3k on a titanium MR-G with GPS hybrid sync all the way down to $13 on a Sport Analog "Dive" Watch

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51QO5o1PSjL._AC_UL260_SR200,260_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51EdYIgL-VL._AC_UL260_SR200,260_.jpg)


Speaking of that $13 dollar watch, I just pulled mine out, along with my other non-radio-sync, non-solar watches, at least the one's with functioning battery, to see how far off they are since I last set them in February 2017.

   Casio MRW200-1BV Analog $13:  4min 55sec slow

   Casio W800H-1AV Digital $12:  35sec fast

   Timex Analog early 1990's:  3min 10sec fast

   Suunto Vector early 2000's:  5sec slow, which is impressive.  But even more impressive was the fact the battery hadn't run out in 20 months.


Damn, I think performance per dollar that W800H is looking like a winner!

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/411gSxdbHTL._AC_UL260_SR200,260_.jpg)



Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: FreeLancer on October 09, 2018, 05:40:08 PM
(https://shop.r10s.jp/tokeiten/cabinet/ikou_20100223_009/img10544496685.jpg)

I finally tracked down my first Tough Solar Multiband 6, now a decade old, and found it completely dead with hands pointed at midnight.  After half a day in the light it finally woke up but won't sync with either the loop or speakers.  It may be a power issue, as the battery indicator goes from H (high) to M (med) after each failed sync attempt.  A couple times it would go from R (receive) mode to W (synchronizing) but just couldn't complete the process.  Unfortunately these analog Casio MultiBands don't display signal strength during sync like the fully digital ones.  I'm not sure what the expected lifespan of these rechargeable batteries are, but being dead for 18 months can't be good for it.
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: iam4liberty on October 09, 2018, 07:14:40 PM
I'm not sure what the expected lifespan of these rechargeable batteries are, but being dead for 18 months can't be good for it.

They dont claim a date, but general thinking is 30+ years as long as it is kept charged.  If not, then they will deteriorate quickly after low power time, usually six to ten months.  I am afraid it is damaged and wont provide enough current for sync process.
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: FreeLancer on October 09, 2018, 07:36:16 PM
I bought my new watches because this one had developed a weird short where the back-light would come on for minutes at a time just from touching the metal case or twisting it on the wrist.  So it had some issues and I tipped it over the edge through neglect.  I thought it was in a place that would get some light, but I accidentally covered it with something.
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: iam4liberty on October 10, 2018, 09:16:11 AM
I bought my new watches because this one had developed a weird short where the back-light would come on for minutes at a time just from touching the metal case or twisting it on the wrist.  So it had some issues and I tipped it over the edge through neglect.  I thought it was in a place that would get some light, but I accidentally covered it with something.

Talked to a buddy who is a casio expert.  He says it may still be ok.  What happens is that when the casios fully discharge they return to a default setting.  Part of this default is switching the RF sync to the Japanese frequency only. He says manual should tell you how to change the "home city".  He also says that before doing this the watch will need to be in direct sunlight for 30 hours.  This will bring it back to level 1 charge as long as battery is not damaged beyond use. Otherwise it will require a new $25 battery.  The watch must be at level 1 or 2 to sync.
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: FreeLancer on October 10, 2018, 10:52:21 AM
You’re exactly right.

I read the manual right before I went to sleep last night and it stated that sync was fully functional at an M-level charge.  I then caught the part about losing the home city setting and reverting to TYO right before watch shutdown in critical low battery conditions.  When I get home tonight, I’ll try to sync it with the Android JJY app and the Tecsun loop before switching back to LAX.
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: FreeLancer on October 10, 2018, 09:35:47 PM
Well, I got some more data points on this time signal thing.


(https://lh3.ggpht.com/gYvB44os0CadciOaOwFuKTtb2gPB1nh9JbjZJmQOXEUZ-wcbeEpTowYoDpdTtRprGvc=s180)

So I ran the JJYEmulator Android app (icon pictured above) via Chromebook cabled to the Tecsun loop and managed to sync the old dead G-Shock to TYO time, but only if the watch was within a foot of the loop.  Thinking it may have been a problem with the watch's power, although I did manage to keep the battery charge in the M to H range during these operations through use of an LED photon cannon, I decided to change my trustiest square G-Shock to TYO and had no better luck.  I should also mention that my app had an option for either a 40khz or 60khz signal and found that only 60 worked (40 sounds horrendous through speaker!).

So, before I changed both watches back to LAX, I figured I'd try the Clock Wave iPhone app set to transmit JJY to see if it worked better.  It didn't.  I don't know why.  When you play these 60khz signals through the speakers, they sound close enough in volume to the WWVB's at 60khz.  But the format is definitely different and I'm not sure why that would matter, but the bottom line is JJY isn't going to be the time signal to broadcast around the house with a Tecsun loop hooked up to a busted up iPhone.  The other weird thing is that Japan doesn't officially recognize DST on their home islands, but for some reason JJY broadcasts the DST codes, which meant one of my watches was off an hour from the other even though they just successfully synced up at the same time.  I quickly lost patience farting around with it, but it's something to do with DST set to Auto vs On or Off on the watches, but maybe the phone app, too. 

Bottom line.....JJY is a pain in the ass.
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: FreeLancer on October 10, 2018, 09:44:00 PM
Another weird thing....... 

The back from the dead G-Shock synced JJY in exactly 2 minutes the first time it was close enough to get the signal.  But after that, neither watch would sync to JJY or WWVB in less than 4 minutes.  I think that may be a pattern I've noticed with my other three watches, too.  It's like the more recent the last successful sync was, the longer it takes confirming the next sync, making a two minute sync very unlikely.  If you're off by a mile it's quick, but a split second difference takes 4+ minutes.
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: iam4liberty on October 13, 2018, 08:10:37 PM
Is Survival Tech Nord stalking us?  First he releases the battery bank tutorial right when we were discussing that.  And now he releases a gps time reference tutorial.  Synchronicity!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oWLjl0dFkY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oWLjl0dFkY)
Off Grid Time Source Raspberry Pi & Cheap U-Blox USB GPS
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: FreeLancer on October 13, 2018, 11:57:11 PM
It’s like a contagious disease that makes you spend money.
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: Carl on October 14, 2018, 04:58:23 AM
  We are good for ideas and to give guidance to the lost.
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: iam4liberty on October 15, 2018, 10:39:06 AM
May be coincidence but Casio, the largest seller by far of RF sychronized watches, just announced G-Shocks which synchronize to the NTP time references via bluetooth.

https://techcrunch.com/2018/10/15/casio-adds-modern-tech-to-the-classic-g-shock-watch/amp/ (https://techcrunch.com/2018/10/15/casio-adds-modern-tech-to-the-classic-g-shock-watch/amp/)
Casio adds modern tech to the classic G-Shock watch

The Bluetooth function is simple and worth a look. It gives owners an easy way to access settings. Instead of navigating through the menus on the watch, owners can use a smartphone app to sync the watch to the phone’s time, adjust settings and set alarms and reminders. It takes just one button press on the watch and for the owner to launch the app. The watch does not have to be connected through the phone’s Bluetooth menu; the app takes care of it all.
...
I found the experience a refreshing update. I don’t need a smartwatch all the time but there are advantages to connecting a watch to a phone. If this is a glimpse at the future of timekeeping, I’m all in
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: iam4liberty on October 15, 2018, 10:56:21 AM
Slight correction to above Casio technology. It will sync not only to NTP but wharever time reference the user uses sets for their phone.  So this could also be gps, cell network, or private reference like a private corporate reference (eg apple time network or one's  company or own source). 
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: FreeLancer on October 15, 2018, 01:34:42 PM
I think Casio has been selling Bluetooth on their higher end Ediface and Oceanus models, as well as top tier G Shocks, for several years.  A few are even triple sync capable, with GPS, MultiBand 6 and Bluetooth, but usually start at >$1000.  I was tempted to get one with this shutdown scare, but then figured I’d be better off buying a GPS disciplined NTP/PTP server for my home network, instead.
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: FreeLancer on October 15, 2018, 02:59:20 PM
I really like the retro 5600 G Shock form factor of that watch in the Tech Crunch article, I have two of Multiband6 models (one is a Japan only model), but I can’t find any Bluetooth models in the US market, and don’t really feel it’s worth paying the premium to get it from Japan.  The only Bluetooth Casios here are blinged out garish monsters starting at $400.
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: scoop on October 15, 2018, 04:32:30 PM
I'd worry about WWV time going away, but I don't have the time...
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: iam4liberty on October 15, 2018, 05:21:18 PM
I really like the retro 5600 G Shock form factor of that watch in the Tech Crunch article, I have two of Multiband6 models (one is a Japan only model), but I can’t find any Bluetooth models in the US market, and don’t really feel it’s worth paying the premium to get it from Japan.  The only Bluetooth Casios here are blinged out garish monsters starting at $400.

The "smartwatch" versions are pricy but these newer "enhanced feature" bluetooth casios are much less.  One that is interesting from a preppers viewpont is GSquad.  It includes a step counter (great for estimating distance traveled) and is 200 meter waterproof.

https://www.g-central.com/g-shock-g-squad-gba-800-with-step-tracker-and-bluetooth/ (https://www.g-central.com/g-shock-g-squad-gba-800-with-step-tracker-and-bluetooth/)

It is $120-$130 depending on shop https://www.rei.com/product/135547/casio-g-shock-step-tracking-fitness-watch (https://www.rei.com/product/135547/casio-g-shock-step-tracking-fitness-watch).

That is a ton of features for the price: GBA-800
PDFhttps://casio.t-and-i.co.il › 2018/02 › GB... (http://GBA-800
PDFhttps://casio.t-and-i.co.il › 2018/02 › GB...)

(https://www.rei.com/media/fb566e1b-0d0b-4c78-989d-23aee7a29782?size=784x588)
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: FreeLancer on October 15, 2018, 09:46:41 PM
Dang it, I was all excited about that GSquad, until I realized it wasn't Tough Solar and only has a 2 yr battery life.  That's a deal breaker for me.  I learned my lesson with my Suunto, no more battery hogs.

Apparently Casio has released a cheaper resin version of the 5600 (I'm not a big fan of the all metal retro squares, anyways) with Tough Solar, MultiBand, and Bluetooth, the GW-B5600. 

(https://www.g-central.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/GW-B5600BC-1-1.jpg)

It's basically exactly what I've got now (which sells now for as little as $90) with the added Bluetooth connectivity, but it looks like it's not coming to the US yet and that's putting the price around $250.

I guess the good news is that Casio's got plenty of viable options to sell us if WWVB goes bye bye.
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: Carl on October 16, 2018, 04:33:53 AM
 I often find that my FOSSIL watch is out of sync with my Wilson sun dial and it appears to be no big deal.
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: Redman on October 16, 2018, 05:40:36 AM
I often find that my FOSSIL watch is out of sync with my Wilson sun dial and it appears to be no big deal.

Yeah my FOSSIL watch and my Seiko solar watch are often out of sync with this PC and all three are out of sync with the TV stations. Who cares? My one battery operated Dakota grandfather clock is always accurate even though it is only in sync with itself and the TV stations. Let's see hmm, microwave clock is never in sync with anything, it's never set and the thing is unplugged when not actually in use. And the clock on the oven is almost in sync with the Dakota but again the timer is the only thing that really matters but it's difficult to get to the plug. I don't even have a sundial.

When you're retired you really aren't too concerned about what time it is.  ;D
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: Carl on October 16, 2018, 05:43:54 AM
Yeah my FOSSIL watch and my Seiko solar watch are often out of sync with this PC and all three are out of sync with the TV stations. Who cares? My one battery operated Dakota grandfather clock is always accurate even though it is only in sync with itself and the TV stations. Let's see hmm, microwave clock is never in sync with anything, it's never set and the thing is unplugged when not actually in use. And the clock on the oven is almost in sync with the Dakota but again the timer is the only thing that really matters but it's difficult to get to the plug. I don't even have a sundial.

When you're retired you really aren't too concerned about what time it is.  ;D

Or even what day it is....
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: Redman on October 16, 2018, 06:32:40 AM
4-10 ??????? Wait that's not right 10-4? No it's 10-16. Domestic trouble or pick up prisoner at or reply.
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: FreeLancer on October 20, 2018, 05:04:36 PM
(https://timemachinescorp.com/wp-content/uploads/tm2000a-1-e1490299990925.jpg)

As feared, this thread took me down the rabbit-hole of time measurement, again, and I couldn't resist getting a bare-bones grandmaster clock for my network.  Haven't figured out the PTP part, yet, but NTP wasn't too bad and I'm able to lock 9-12 GPS satellites inside the house. 
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: Bradbn4 on October 21, 2018, 08:27:02 AM
(https://timemachinescorp.com/wp-content/uploads/tm2000a-1-e1490299990925.jpg)

As feared, this thread took me down the rabbit-hole of time measurement, again, and I couldn't resist getting a bare-bones grandmaster clock for my network.  Haven't figured out the PTP part, yet, but NTP wasn't too bad and I'm able to lock 9-12 GPS satellites inside the house.

Cool hardware, but too expensive for what it is; however, when comparing prices for other commercial rack mounted solutions it works well.

I have seen raspberry Pi Stratus 2 solutions with a GPS hardware for under $200 dollars.  That price is still too high in my book.  I have worked with both IRIG A/B time sources which can be both expensive and hard to work with older hardware.

https://www.satsignal.eu/ntp/Raspberry-Pi-NTP.html (https://www.satsignal.eu/ntp/Raspberry-Pi-NTP.html)

The solution set I have at home does require soldering.



 
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: FreeLancer on October 21, 2018, 06:21:12 PM
Cool hardware, but too expensive for what it is; however, when comparing prices for other commercial rack mounted solutions it works well.

I have seen raspberry Pi Stratus 2 solutions with a GPS hardware for under $200 dollars.  That price is still too high in my book.  I have worked with both IRIG A/B time sources which can be both expensive and hard to work with older hardware.

https://www.satsignal.eu/ntp/Raspberry-Pi-NTP.html (https://www.satsignal.eu/ntp/Raspberry-Pi-NTP.html)

The solution set I have at home does require soldering.

Can't really disagree with any of that, like I said, it's a rabbit-hole...... 

I'd still like to try and build my own.  This TM2000A's PTP (and NTP holdover) functionality relies on an OCXO module rated at 20ppb accuracy, and I think that's up to 4 orders of magnitude off what's possible with that technology.  Not sure what the cost of a better OCXO would be, or how easy it is to find something that plugs into a Raspbery Pi?

Here's an accuracy comparison of the TM1000 vs TM2000 vs a real Grand Master Clock from Microsemi:  https://www.timemachinescorp.com/wp-content/uploads/TMTimeServerAccuracyRevB.pdf (https://www.timemachinescorp.com/wp-content/uploads/TMTimeServerAccuracyRevB.pdf)
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: Alan Georges on October 22, 2018, 06:40:09 AM
Can't believe the legs on this thread and the weird corners into tech it's taken: Buy your own time reference.  Build your own time reference.  DIY WWVB Part 15 broadcasts.  There's even a sundial thread, which may or may not be a spin-off.   8)
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: armymars on October 22, 2018, 08:51:44 AM
OT  I love this place!
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: iam4liberty on October 22, 2018, 07:05:23 PM
Can't believe the legs on this thread and the weird corners into tech it's taken: Buy your own time reference.  Build your own time reference.  DIY WWVB Part 15 broadcasts.  There's even a sundial thread, which may or may not be a spin-off.

The web of thoughts is pretty cool. TSP forum is awesome as almost every solution thread runs from the primitive to the ultra high tech and from the ultra-economical to high value ratio to luxury.  One just needs to ask and a suitable option seems to materialize.

The sundial thread was origionally an offshoot of the ephemeris thread which was an offshoot of a tinfoil hat thread on flat earth!  But using the sun as a time reference is just as valid an approach as gps satelites.  Perfect example of breadth of solutions!

Which reminds me, i got an email asking about difference between navigation ephemeris and astrology emphemeris so i need to update that thread too.  Zodiac, here we come...
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: FreeLancer on October 22, 2018, 08:28:04 PM
Which reminds me, i got an email asking about difference between navigation ephemeris and astrology emphemeris so i need to update that thread too.  Zodiac, here we come...

That’s perfect. Because I’m about 99.999% sure I can’t be tempted to buy anything astrological anytime soon. 
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: FreeLancer on October 24, 2018, 10:30:18 PM
Dang it!  I just discovered the existence of this little gem:  https://v3.airspy.us/product/upu-leontp/ (https://v3.airspy.us/product/upu-leontp/)

(https://store.uputronics.com/image/cache/catalog/LeoNTP/leontp-500x500.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CpMMYr4UkAAELfZ.jpg)
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: FreeLancer on October 28, 2018, 02:59:48 PM
OMG, this LeoNTP is pretty damn awesome! 

It’s a totally different machine compared to the TM2000A, which can only be used as an Ethernet timeserver, managed and monitored via web page.  While the LeoNTP can also serve NTP over Ethernet, it’s easily managed and monitored via the display and control button/dial in the front and can be set to output 1pps, 1mhz, or 10mhz reference signals to other devices from the BNC in the back.  Power is via either USB or PoE and since it’s not running Linux on a single board computer, or heating up an oven, like the TM it’s incredibly fast to boot and lock GPS, literally seconds vs minutes, so using this much smaller device in the field should be a snap. Yeah, it doesn’t have the OCXO holdover stability or PTP capability, but who cares?
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: FreeLancer on November 13, 2018, 10:32:05 PM
(https://shop.r10s.jp/tokeiten/cabinet/ikou_20100223_009/img10544496685.jpg)

I finally tracked down my first Tough Solar Multiband 6, now a decade old, and found it completely dead with hands pointed at midnight.  After half a day in the light it finally woke up but won't sync with either the loop or speakers.  It may be a power issue, as the battery indicator goes from H (high) to M (med) after each failed sync attempt.  A couple times it would go from R (receive) mode to W (synchronizing) but just couldn't complete the process.  Unfortunately these analog Casio MultiBands don't display signal strength during sync like the fully digital ones.  I'm not sure what the expected lifespan of these rechargeable batteries are, but being dead for 18 months can't be good for it.

This G-Shock appears to be back to normal.  The battery indicator remains on H and it has been syncing on the same nights as the other watches.  After reading the manual I even figured out that the weird "short" involving the LED is actually a feature, not a bug, one designed to turn on the light when it senses you've moved the watch to look at the time.  It's off by default and I must have accidentally mashed the wrong combination of buttons around the time it started happening and now with the dead battery reset it's back off again.  So, I guess, maybe this Tough Solar thing is actually pretty tough, after all. 


I know it takes a special kind of moron to buy a new radio controlled clock with WWVB on death row, but mamma always did say I was special......

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81kQF5PY%2B%2BL._SX425_.jpg)

This LaCrosse UltrAtomic (https://www.lacrossetechnology.com/404-1235ua-ss-ultratomic-atomic-analog-wall-clock/) receives the newer phase-modulated enhanced WWVB broadcast signal and has two orthogonal antennas for more reliable reception in difficult environments.  I've had it for a month now and finally today propagation deteriorated to the point where I was able to actually test the reception claims and get the UltrAtomic to sync when none of my watches or alarm clocks could.  With the time change earlier this month I was also able to test one of the other features of the new WWVB signal, the ability to receive and store the switch back to standard time well before the actual date and then make the adjustment immediately at 2am.  Between midnight and 2am all my other devices adjusted back one hour as they synchronized to WWVB on their normal schedule, but the UltrAtomic waited and then moved the hands forward 11 hours precisely at 2am.  Apparently, according to this time nut (http://leapsecond.com/pages/ultratomic/), at the last leap second event the UltrAtomic handled the additional second perfectly, too.  Also, unlike all my other radio controlled clocks, which take 1 or 2 AA cells, this one takes either 2 or 4 C cells, which is supposed to give it up to 7 year battery life.  It's a really great clock.  If WWVB survives and anyone's looking for a foolproof $50 analog clock it's worth a look.


I've also been doing some slow motion video on my iPhone to compare the accuracy between the radio controlled devices and the two GPS disciplined NTP servers.  When observing the visual and auditory Pulse Per Second outputs of all these devices they tend to appear to my senses to be in sync and I find it difficult to discriminate between differences less than a quarter second, especially when you can't easily overlap devices to observe the changes in both clocks with a single sense (ie. in real time you can't watch two second hands move on two different devices simultaneously, but you can watch the movement of one device and compare it to the tone emitted from another device).  After recording several different events over the past couple weeks, I'm starting to see the following patterns between my devices.

Using the LeoNTP display as the "gold standard" (which is complicated by the 240.2 fps rate of my iPhone catching only half of the LeoNTP's LED display with each frame) the UltrAtomic stays within 7 frames of the GPS device.  Two old iPhones running different "atomic clock" apps synced with the local TM2000A NTP server display time 6 frames slower (always slower) than the LeoNTP.  While my Casio MultiBand 6 watches have been up to 40 frames fast (they've all been fast, every time).  The other alarm clocks I've compared are $20 Hito models (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B077424TT5/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1) that take 2xAA (one is solar assisted for prolonged battery life and runs in sunlight with the batteries removed, both are superb high-value clocks!) and they're accurate to within 40 frames of the LeoNTP.  In all these slo-mo tests I've done the radio controlled devices had been successfully synced within 12-16 hours. 

I've been thinking about the margin of error with this slo-mo comparison technique and it has to be at least +/- 2 frames per observation, which at 4.163 milliseconds between frames is approaching 10ms.  So, with up to a 40 frame difference, plus an additional couple frames, all these devices are less than 200ms from each other.  Using the Emerald Sequoia Time app (https://emeraldsequoia.com/et/index.html) on my iPhone, which compares the system time obtained from my cell provider to the NTP pool, as well as to my local TM2000A server, I've found that the offset from some NTP pool servers can be as high as 100ms, but typically is less than 10ms.  The local TM2000A's offset is typically better than the NTP pool by a factor of 10, so local GPS disciplined clocks definitely have an edge over internet time.  Interestingly, my WiFi only iPad's system clock develops a 10 second offset within days of rebooting, according to the Time app, and there's no way to prompt iOS to sync its system time to NTP (other than hard reset) often enough to avoid this discrepancy.  However, both my old cell-enabled iOS devices keep getting frequent system time updates despite no active cell service.


Anyways, those are the data points I've obtained thus far.  I was quite surprised to see how much better the UltrAtomic performed compared to my other WWVB devices.  I'm not sure if this new phase-modulated signal is inherently more accurate in addition to being more reliable, whether the UltrAtomic's oscillator is better, or whether it's syncing multiple times per day.  But, for whatever reason, it's almost as accurate as my iOS devices updating to a local GPS NTP server every couple minutes.  That's pretty impressive!
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: Pabrides on November 14, 2018, 03:51:59 AM
There are other folks just as concerned about accurate time sources disappearing.

Read the following thread to see what happened..... :)

https://thenauticalalmanac.com/Forum/showthread.php?tid=172&pid=667#pid667

joe
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: FreeLancer on November 14, 2018, 08:48:09 AM
There are other folks just as concerned about accurate time sources disappearing.

Read the following thread to see what happened..... :)

https://thenauticalalmanac.com/Forum/showthread.php?tid=172&pid=667#pid667

joe

That's some great stuff!  Karma for you.
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: iam4liberty on November 28, 2018, 03:22:44 PM
Uh oh, freelancer, we have something new coming down the line!  ;) Those gals and guys at the NIST are an impressive bunch.They already measure relativistic effects on the satellites, but doing it on surface of Earth, wowser. "Clocks with these accuracies would take longer than the age of the universe (13.8 billion years) to lose a second."

https://gizmodo.com/scientists-build-atomic-clocks-accurate-enough-to-measu-1830715349 (https://gizmodo.com/scientists-build-atomic-clocks-accurate-enough-to-measu-1830715349)

Scientists Build Atomic Clocks Accurate Enough to Measure Changes in Spacetime Itself

Physicists have created atomic clocks so precise that they can measure deformations in spacetime itself, according to new research.

We don’t all experience time passing equally—time passes more slowly closer to something massive’s gravitational pull, as famously theorized by Albert Einstein. And since gravity is typically interpreted as the way mass warps space itself, that means a precise-enough atomic clock could serve as a scientific tool for measuring how objects change the shape of their surrounding space.


Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: FreeLancer on November 28, 2018, 03:40:04 PM
Oh man, you beat me to it!  Accuracy of one billionth of a billionth (10-18)?!!!

I guess this is where NIST’s been spending our tax dollars.
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: iam4liberty on February 19, 2019, 08:55:27 PM
Update: they received funding for 2019.

http://www.arrl.org/news/wwv-100th-anniversary-special-event-operation-in-the-planning-stages (http://www.arrl.org/news/wwv-100th-anniversary-special-event-operation-in-the-planning-stages)
WWV 100th Anniversary Special Event Operation in the Planning Stages

The NIST budget for WWV, WWVH, and WWVB will remain level for FY 2019. With the funding suspense over, Swartz told ARRL, “our committee is moving forward.”
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: Alan Georges on March 16, 2019, 04:15:51 PM
That is good news.  At least for the next... seven months.

Side note, here's a good spoof of WWV's time broadcast signal:
https://www.kb6nu.com/wwv-all-the-time-all-the-time/
Listen only if you really have the time.
Title: Re: WWV time signal stations on the chopping block
Post by: iam4liberty on April 17, 2019, 09:53:19 AM
Just a quick update.

I've been daily wearing a Casio with Bluetooth connectivity and it iis doing awesome.  Have not been able to visibly tell difference between radio atomic, gps, and bluetooth synchronization. Casio nailed this technology.

Upper end ones with tough solar and saphire crystals are just hitting market. https://www.notebookcheck.net/Casio-announces-a-new-G-SHOCK-MT-G-connected-watch-with-Vibrant-Red-strap.418132.0.html (https://www.notebookcheck.net/Casio-announces-a-new-G-SHOCK-MT-G-connected-watch-with-Vibrant-Red-strap.418132.0.html)  Should trickle down over next few years.