Author Topic: Help, I can't afford to waste primers!  (Read 11761 times)

Offline CountryRootsCityJob

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Help, I can't afford to waste primers!
« on: October 18, 2009, 05:18:53 PM »
I have about 200 primers left... I started out with about 330... on my first batch of 100 rds of .45acp, I used up about 130 primers due to the fact that I can't get them to sit deep enough inside the primer pocket.  I have a  Lyman Spart-T with the auto-primer feed... I was accepting primers that I could get to fit .003" below the surface of the casing, but that took a bit of almost slamming the primer feed up into the shell repeatedly as I rotate it.  I'm using Remington brass that I've shot once and Remington 2 1/2 primers. 

I've done my best to clean out the pocket and I'm wondering if I need a Primer Pocket Uniforming Tool?  I measured some of the pockets to be .118 while some of them went down to .113"  The funny thing is, I still had trouble with the brass with the deeper pocket...

Also, I've read all sorts of reviews about how those hand primer tools by RCBS, Lee, and everybody else is both great and about how they are a pain in the butt to work with/cheap metal/plastic and break... SO- what do you guys think about those tools?  Example... http://www.midwayusa.com/browse/BrowseProducts.aspx?pageNum=1&tabId=1&categoryId=19941&categoryString=9315***731***706***

Any help would be appreciated!   :D

Offline vgun

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Re: Help, I can't afford to waste primers!
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2009, 06:03:36 PM »
 I use the RCBS Universal Primer Tool. That thing works great and I've never had any problems. Never had anything break but if it does--RCBS will just send a new part.
 I used to use the pocket uniformer and reaming tools but I just found that to be an extra step that was not necessary--at least for my pistol caliber reloads.
 I can do 100 primers in about 5 minutes. I don't even measure them anymore--I just feel with my finger as I pull the case out to make sure it's seated below the back of the case. I've loaded several thousand with this set up and have not had one single primer not seat right.
 The pocket uniformer may help. Worth a try.
But if you get the RCBS tool I wouldn't worry about it--they hold up pretty good. I can't speak for any other brands. My RCBS has been used for about 4 years now

Offline RipTombstone

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Re: Help, I can't afford to waste primers!
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2009, 10:18:39 AM »
I have loaded thousands of rounds with a little Lee hand primer tool over the past few years. It has yet to fail me, although it does tend to fatigue the hand after awhile.
I have since moved to a Dillon 550, and only use the Lee tool on small runs of 32 S&W and 38 S&W.
I am not familiar with that press, but is it adjusted right? My Pacific shotshell loader will sometimes start getting out of adjustment, which will leave the primer sticking part way out. Simple as tightening it back up to get it to work right.

Also, you may want to try another brand of primer. I use Winchester primers mostly, and have very little problem with them. Other brands might be just slightly oversize or undersize.

What kind of 45 acp brass are you using? Is it military? If so, you probably still have a primer crimp in place, and you would need to ream that out to get the primers to seat right.
I load my 45s mostly on Remington and Winchester brass, but I do find a few odd ones that give me trouble.
Good luck,
RipT

Offline ubergeek

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Re: Help, I can't afford to waste primers!
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2009, 12:03:20 PM »
Yep, you either need to ream the primer pocket or swage the primer pocket. Primer pocket reamers are dirt cheap compared to swagers. Swagers are good if you have a boat load of military brass to process.

Offline CountryRootsCityJob

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Re: Help, I can't afford to waste primers!
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2009, 05:15:15 PM »
Yep, you either need to ream the primer pocket or swage the primer pocket. Primer pocket reamers are dirt cheap compared to swagers. Swagers are good if you have a boat load of military brass to process.

Whoa, hang on... I've read elsewhere that reaming can make the pocket too big around... creating problems with gasses escaping around the primer.  Again, I'm shooting Remington UMC brass... its not the U.N. or military stuff, I know what that looks like. 

My problem is that my primers either are sitting flush or are not quite as deep as I'd like them to be.  My Lyman loading book suggests .003" to .005" below flush, but one guy at a gun store I talked with said that flush is fine as long as they don't slam fire... I really don't like the idea of worrying about that. 

So is flush good enough, or do I need my primers to sit below flush as recommended?  I'd love to try other primers, but I can't find ANY!

Alright, keep it coming ;D  This is good stuff to know!

~CRCJ

Offline ubergeek

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Re: Help, I can't afford to waste primers!
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2009, 05:23:42 PM »
Sorry, I missed the part about Remington UMC brass in your previous post. Usually when you see primer seating problems it's military brass. I use mostly military brass when I reload NATO calibers to I'm pretty used to the problem.

So why will they not seat any deeper? I don't know anything about your press, but is there an adjustment to change the primer seating depth? I'd be surprised if it couldn't be adjusted.

Do you have a manual primer tool? A sure way to figure out if it's the press' primer seating function or the brass is to prime a few by hand, then see if you can seat them to the correct depth. If so, then the problem is some adjustment or worn out part on your press.

You shouldn't really ever have to uniform a primer pocket unless you are really going for extreme accuracy...then it's just one step in a whole bunch of steps to make everything as perfect as possible.

For what it's worth, I use a RCBS manual primer, it's REALLY easy to use and I don't think they cost all that much.

Offline CountryRootsCityJob

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Re: Help, I can't afford to waste primers!
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2009, 06:53:37 AM »
Well my press is designed to prime on the upstroke.  I just checked and it is certainly capable of pushing the primers past the .005" if they would be willing to go that far.  There isn't any kind of bottoming out action on my press when I use the primer tool, so I don't know how I could adjust it... the primer punch sits as deep into the hole as it can, so there's not going to be a lot of adjusting going on there...

Here are some pics of the same press I have:


Any thoughts?  (Yea, I know its old... but the price was pretty good!)

Offline ubergeek

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Re: Help, I can't afford to waste primers!
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2009, 06:58:30 AM »
what do the primer pockets look like?

Also, it might really be worth finding a manual primer somewhere to try a couple by hand.

You could also try to give Lyman a call and see what they say.  Beyond what happens with a manual primer, I'm at a bit of a loss as to other suggestions.

Is this brand new brass or fired brass?

Offline RipTombstone

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Re: Help, I can't afford to waste primers!
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2009, 07:57:18 AM »
Are you sure you have the right primers? Not a mismarked case of primers? Rifle primers are a little taller than pistol primers if I recall, which would lend itself to your issue.

Your right, there isnt much adjustment on your press. Does the anvil portion of the primer seater screw in or out a little?

I have used a small primer pocket cleaner that will remove a little burr in the pocket, that might help. I think its the little black Lee one.

RipT

Offline CountryRootsCityJob

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Re: Help, I can't afford to waste primers!
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2009, 01:52:49 PM »
Are you sure you have the right primers? Not a mismarked case of primers? Rifle primers are a little taller than pistol primers if I recall, which would lend itself to your issue.

Well the only equipment I was given, and to my knowledge that's all the father in law had, was for a .45 and a .223- large pistol and small rifle.  Because of this, I'm assuming I didn't get any large rifle primers... however, are shotgun primers a close fit?  He did some reloading of those...


Your right, there isnt much adjustment on your press. Does the anvil portion of the primer seater screw in or out a little?

I have used a small primer pocket cleaner that will remove a little burr in the pocket, that might help. I think its the little black Lee one.


The primer seater does not screw in... it is held in place by a set screw.  At the moment it is bottomed out and it'd be a pain to "adjust" - the only way I would know to adjust it is to put little shims into the hole before placing the seater in it...

I just bought the little lee pocket cleaner and cleaned about 200+ pockets... no burr's were removed that I was able to see.  We'll see if that makes any difference though.

Thanks!
CRCJ

-Note- working on pic's

Offline CountryRootsCityJob

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Re: Help, I can't afford to waste primers!
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2009, 02:23:27 PM »
Here's pic's before I cleaned the pockets:


There's what they look like... does that tell you anything?

Oh, the middle pic shows a cleaned primer on the left and a dirty on the right

Offline RipTombstone

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Re: Help, I can't afford to waste primers!
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2009, 02:48:12 PM »
Hmm, your brass actually looks better than mine does. I do have some of those Rem. primers at home. I will compare them to my Winchester primers, and see if there is a difference.
But, if you are getting the primers seated to the bottom, and they are not sticking out, the measurement of the depth should not matter too much. Do you have a pic of some that are seated in the case for comparison?
RipT

Offline ubergeek

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Re: Help, I can't afford to waste primers!
« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2009, 06:12:29 PM »
Those are pretty clean and don't look bad at all, like RipT said. I'm at a bit of a loss.

Offline RipTombstone

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Re: Help, I can't afford to waste primers!
« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2009, 07:27:34 PM »
Well, I did measure my Winchester large pistol primers and my Rem 2 1/2 lrg pistol primers, and the Remingtons seem to be .001" longer. One of them was .002" longer.
If you can, try some Winchester primers in there, and see if it ends up any better.
RipT

Offline RipTombstone

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Re: Help, I can't afford to waste primers!
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2009, 10:40:02 PM »
I loaded up 100 45acps last night, using mixed brass, but mostly Rem, with Rem 2 1/2 primers. None of my primers are sticking up. I am still thinking its your primer seater on the press.
Hope you end up having some good luck on it!
RipT

Offline CountryRootsCityJob

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Re: Help, I can't afford to waste primers!
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2009, 08:54:20 AM »
Well I'm thinking the next step I'm going to take is to take my press into the shop I've been going to and see if they can't tell me anything.  I'm not sure if that will fix anything or not, but I can't see any reason that the primers should be the problem.  

Hey RipT, could you measure the overall length of your Remington primers so I could compare that to what I've got?  I guess my only thought right now is that what was in the Remington box might not be a Remington primer?  It's a stretch, but if your primer lengths are smaller than mine, that would certainly be something to look at.  Or hey, what is the length of the Winchester primers?  That's something else to compare it to.

Thanks for the help you guys!

CRCJ

Offline ubergeek

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Re: Help, I can't afford to waste primers!
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2009, 02:35:28 PM »
See if they have a manual primer tool that you can test with in order to see if it's the press or not. To me, that's the easiest test.

Offline RipTombstone

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Re: Help, I can't afford to waste primers!
« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2009, 02:41:49 PM »
Yep, that manual tool or even a friends reloading tool should give you an indication of whether or not its your press or the primer/case.
I will try to measure mine tonite, depending on how this sinus headache goes. May be more fun to sit in the shop with a hammer and hit the primers on the floor.. :'( I hate sinus problems....

If you do get a manual tool, look at the RCBS or Lyman. The Lee i have has been good, but it does tire the hand out, and it is showing some wear over the last few years of use. (many many rounds tho)

RipT

Offline RipTombstone

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Re: Help, I can't afford to waste primers!
« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2009, 08:58:22 PM »
Ok, I went out and measured several of each type at the deepest portion of the primer, the little bit of anvil sticking out. I made sure that I was going over 2 of the anvil prongs for measurement.

The Rems measured .1205 and .1220 and most seemed to be .1220. It took almost 10 tries to find the .1205.
The Wins large pistol measured .1195 and 1180 and every in between.

Hope this helps.
RipT

Offline CountryRootsCityJob

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Re: Help, I can't afford to waste primers!
« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2009, 08:20:55 AM »
The Rems measured .1205 and .1220 and most seemed to be .1220. It took almost 10 tries to find the .1205.
The Wins large pistol measured .1195 and 1180 and every in between.
Hope this helps.
RipT

Well I hope you didn't bang too many primers on the floor with your hammer... I'm beginning to learn about that more now that we moved to Kentucky  :-\

But back to the topic... what you are saying is that there is an average difference of about .004", which is the goal depth I am aiming for... so right there is one option for me that would possibly help solve my problem.  

Now here's something else to throw into the mix ;D  Yesterday I tried it again... I got 100rds of Remington brass with the primer pockets cleaned and put them back on my press.  Again, I used Remington 2 1/2 primers.  This time when I was ready to seat the primers, I gave it a lot more Ooomph on the ram... that seemed to help quite a bit!  Then I'd spin the shell in the holder and give it a few more taps if necessary... Yesterday I was able to seat 100% of my primers... problem possibly solved, but this thread is a great indication that there is a lot more to seating primers than I first thought ;D

If I can find a job and some more primers, I'll have to start looking at the RCBS primer tool as well as shooting you guys questions about casting and which mold to get!

Thanks again for the help,
CRCJ

Offline RipTombstone

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Re: Help, I can't afford to waste primers!
« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2009, 08:26:14 AM »
Just make sure you are wearing eye protection and ear protection if you are really having to bear down on the press while priming. Mine all go in pretty smoothly, with an occasional hitch every so often.
Good luck, and glad to see a harmonious outcome!
RipT

Offline donald150

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Re: Help, I can't afford to waste primers!
« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2009, 06:22:25 AM »
Like I always say "put your purse down" ;D

I use these two tools to do all of my priming.

http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,2619.html

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170385028066
« Last Edit: November 01, 2009, 06:26:24 AM by donald150 »

Offline CountryRootsCityJob

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Re: Help, I can't afford to waste primers!
« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2009, 08:26:14 AM »
 ;D  Well hey, I finally got to go out and shoot what I loaded up... That was fun!  So out of 100, I had one stove pipe and one failure to feed (from the mag, but it shot fine.)  The lighter loads were nice too!  My wife typically didn't like the 45, but she enjoyed these loads... now I just have to experiment a little more to find something similar to the Federal Hydrashock and Hornaday +P defense loads... I'd like to ask recommendations, but fear that should be on another topic... maybe I'll start one ;D

~CRCJ

Offline idelphic

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Re: Help, I can't afford to waste primers!
« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2009, 12:21:50 PM »
CRCJ -
   Glad they worked for you.  Loading is a experiment in controlled chaos..  I was hoping to load up some .40s over the weekend but didn't get to it since I was in a field making sausage..  But hope too soon.  One of the things I need to do is log the loads so I know what I load and how they act on the range.

   Speaking of, where did you go?  Bud's in Paris or??  Since I'm normally out in the country,.. I hit Clear Creak (Cave Run Lake) but this time of year I might go to Buds,..  I've also picked up some extra brass up there as the people on the line at the time didn't load... so a good way to accumulate some extras.

Offline CountryRootsCityJob

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Re: Help, I can't afford to waste primers!
« Reply #24 on: December 09, 2009, 09:53:07 AM »
One of the things I need to do is log the loads so I know what I load and how they act on the range... I hit Clear Creak..  I've also picked up some extra brass up there as the people on the line at the time didn't load... so a good way to accumulate some extras.

I did log my load... I got one of those nifty blue ammo boxes and put a sticker on the bottom of the lid that has a chart that I can write all the information down on for my loads... now I just need to slowly work my way up with loads and see how I like them. 

I also might need to start checking out those public access ranges for brass... too bad they are so far from home :-\

Offline idelphic

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Re: Help, I can't afford to waste primers!
« Reply #25 on: December 09, 2009, 06:52:37 PM »
Quote
I also might need to start checking out those public access ranges for brass... too bad they are so far from home

Lately when I've been out to open air range there has been next to nothing.  You might find 3 or 4 cases.  When I went to the range in Paris I was able to sweep the floor up from around me, and I asked those in the lanes next to me if they loaded, they said no, so I kept sweeping..I hope to get back soon.. but time has been far to limited.

Offline RipTombstone

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Re: Help, I can't afford to waste primers!
« Reply #26 on: December 10, 2009, 08:41:28 AM »
I lucked out over Thanksgiving weekend. I went to our local "range", which is actually State hunting land with a large dirt berm.
I picked up probably 100 .223, 20 or 30 .270, a bunch of .30-30, and 50+ 45 auto. We used to go out there and shoot for a while then quit in time to police up all the brass we could find, but in the last year or so, it dried up. Hopefully we can keep going back and mining this spot for awhile. We saw the .223 in action, and the guy didnt even look at his brass to pick up. Just fired them off as fast as he could and left.
Deer season was the week before, so I think a lot of folks did some last minute sighting in to account for the .270 and .30-30.
RipT

Offline CountryRootsCityJob

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Re: Help, I can't afford to waste primers!
« Reply #27 on: December 11, 2009, 11:19:53 AM »
When I went to the range in Paris I was able to sweep the floor up from around me, and I asked those in the lanes next to me if they loaded, they said no, so I kept sweeping..I hope to get back soon.. but time has been far to limited.

Hehe, eh... (Shhh) I'm positive they have the policy "If it touches the ground it's ours."  I won't tattle  ;)