Author Topic: Flee to the Fields  (Read 34928 times)

Offline johngalt

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Flee to the Fields
« on: March 11, 2010, 07:03:36 PM »
For those of us that find homesteading a basis to become closer to God, not just prepping these books have been welcome reading for me. I never knew about the Catholic Land Movement (circa 1930's)  Amazing reading...especially how these guys knew what was coming 70 years ago...recommended book reading

http://www.amazon.com/Flee-Fields-Founding-Catholic-Movement/dp/0971828601/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1268358993&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.com/Economics-Helen-Hilaire-Belloc/dp/1932528032/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1268359098&sr=1-1

After reading them, I wished I would have known about them 10 years ago, so decided to post them...you probably didn't hear about these guys in Catholic school, and definitely won't hear about them at Mass on Sunday, unfortunately.

Offline LvsChant

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Re: Flee to the Fields
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2010, 06:38:00 AM »
I am curious... I've been reading some economics from the von Mises Institute... How does Belloc's economic point of view compare to Austrian economics?

Unfortunately, the whole "social justice" theme has permeated much of modern Catholicism, so I am guessing you are right about your last comment...

Offline johngalt

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Re: Flee to the Fields
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2010, 12:18:26 PM »
Quote
How does Belloc's economic point of view compare to Austrian economics?

It's quite interesting, I always was taught there were two economic models, socialism, and capitalism, and they are opposites, but the perspective of Belloc, Chesterton, et.al was coined distributism....Unfortunately, anything other than unfettered capitalism has always been described derisively as socialism, but in socialism, there is no private property.  In the views of Belloc, private property and freedom, are the two keys to human happiness.  He felt that Socialism would collapse under its own weight very quickly due to the lack of respect/securing of private property -he was obviously right (75 years or so is pretty quick), but also predicted the fall of capitalism because the wealth tends to accumulate into the hands of a few through financial / banking systems of capitalism through usury (coined as interest).  In Capitalism he predicted the accumulation of wealth in a few hands would lead to the situation we see now, where the rules/laws are geared to favor the already powerful/wealthy - think bank bailouts - at the expense of the common man.  Capitalism tends to lead toward the servile state.  As I understand it, distributism is like the "rules stays the same for everyone and all have the opportunity to create their own wealth", and capitalism tends to be "he who owns the gold makes the rules to suit himself".

I really recommend them

Quote
Unfortunately, the whole "social justice" theme has permeated much of modern Catholicism

Unfortunately the modernist/liberals within the Church have usurped this term also (kinda like the term "marriage" or "priest" not having explicit definitions anymore).  Social justice is really when all men have the opportunity to have happiness through freedom, Not handouts....Charity has been turned into give a man a fish, not teach him to fish.

Love to discuss your thoughts also, as I don't have many in my immediate circle that care about these types of discussions.

Offline OKGranny

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Re: Flee to the Fields
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2010, 12:41:00 PM »
I should really stay out of this discussion as I haven't read enough yet, just started "The Servile State" by Belloc but true socialism has failed and to me capitalism is crumbling. It seems to me we are just continuing a cycle that has failed repeatedly When I look around I see the "nobility and peasant" mentality alive and well except our nobility are the wealthy, not necessarily a bloodline. Just my 1/4 cent worth.

Offline LvsChant

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Re: Flee to the Fields
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2010, 09:24:06 PM »
It's quite interesting, I always was taught there were two economic models, socialism, and capitalism, and they are opposites, but the perspective of Belloc, Chesterton, et.al was coined distributism....Unfortunately, anything other than unfettered capitalism has always been described derisively as socialism, but in socialism, there is no private property. 

I've been reading books published by the von Mises Institute recently... according to their definitions, IIRC, communism is the label for "everything owned by the state", a.k.a. completely socialistic. However, in every govt in existence, the reality is a blend of capitalistic and socialistic models. The more the state controls property and trade, or interferes with free trade (in the form of regulations, taxation, govt ownership, etc.), the more a particular society heads toward the socialist/communist end of the spectrum. The more a govt respects and protects private property rights and gets out of the way of free enterprise, the more capitalistic it is...

In the views of Belloc, private property and freedom, are the two keys to human happiness.  He felt that Socialism would collapse under its own weight very quickly due to the lack of respect/securing of private property -he was obviously right (75 years or so is pretty quick), but also predicted the fall of capitalism because the wealth tends to accumulate into the hands of a few through financial / banking systems of capitalism through usury (coined as interest).  In Capitalism he predicted the accumulation of wealth in a few hands would lead to the situation we see now, where the rules/laws are geared to favor the already powerful/wealthy - think bank bailouts - at the expense of the common man.  Capitalism tends to lead toward the servile state. 

In one of the recent books I read A Theory of Socialism and Capitalism, by Hans-Hermann Hoppe, he shows that what you describe is not actually capitalism at all (in the way Austrian economists would term it), but another form of socialism. True capitalism would not allow businesses to get any assistance or special privileges from the government. What that type of system seems more like is fascism (a socialist variant). In fact, we have a mixture of the liberal socialism (all our social programs for the "needy" in which wealth is redistributed from some of the populace to others through governmental force) and the conservative socialism (or fascism), where businesses and particular industries lobby for special governmental controls that help them to maintain their control on or expand their control of a particular industry (tariffs, regulation, licensing).

As I understand it, distributism is like the "rules stays the same for everyone and all have the opportunity to create their own wealth", and capitalism tends to be "he who owns the gold makes the rules to suit himself".

It sounds like the terminology is different, but the bottom line theory is very similar to Austrian economists. I've read only a couple of Belloc books... the one I most recall is one about his walking journey through France IIRC. It has been a few years :)


I really recommend them

Unfortunately the modernist/liberals within the Church have usurped this term also (kinda like the term "marriage" or "priest" not having explicit definitions anymore).  Social justice is really when all men have the opportunity to have happiness through freedom, Not handouts....Charity has been turned into give a man a fish, not teach him to fish.

Love to discuss your thoughts also, as I don't have many in my immediate circle that care about these types of discussions.

I agree with your assessment about the term social justice... it has become synonymous with handouts and wealth redistribution in our times. The really sad thing about so many of the clergy and Church organizations pushing this idea is that it truly does not help those it purports to help in the long run... socialism and wealth redistribution actually hurts the poor more than the rich in the long run, through job losses, overall loss in productivity of industry, causing prices of goods to rise while incomes do not... just look at the misery of people living in communist countries and see what the social justice folks are trying to move our society towards...

There is such a huge problem with trying to get the poor to see that fact... they only see that they are potentially going to get some free stuff from the rich folks... not that it will translate into less investment in private industry and fewer jobs and productivity for everyone.

not good!

Offline Steaker

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Re: Flee to the Fields
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2010, 10:04:25 PM »
Liberty and free exchange is so dangerous.  I want to trade for my daily needs and leave no record of the transactions.  I want to be outside of all government controls.  I'm such a dreamer.

Offline OKGranny

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Re: Flee to the Fields
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2010, 12:47:59 AM »
Liberty and free exchange is so dangerous.  I want to trade for my daily needs and leave no record of the transactions.  I want to be outside of all government controls.  I'm such a dreamer.

Me too. We do a little trading now but personally I wish it could be a way of life.

Offline johngalt

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Re: Flee to the Fields
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2010, 09:54:32 PM »
Quote
True capitalism would not allow businesses to get any assistance or special privileges from the government. What that type of system seems more like is fascism (a socialist variant). In fact, we have a mixture of the liberal socialism (all our social programs for the "needy" in which wealth is redistributed from some of the populace to others through governmental force) and the conservative socialism (or fascism), where businesses and particular industries lobby for special governmental controls that help them to maintain their control on or expand their control of a particular industry (tariffs, regulation, licensing).

Mises and the like do like to say that "true capitalism" does not confer special rights to special interests, but in reality and in practice it does.  Corporations (the creations of the capitalist system) lobby the government through their "free speech".  This process is positive in theory, because the capital then flows to those most capable, e.g. those corporations whom have achieved the most success to date.  We are witnessing the natural progression of this right now...as Belloc predicted, and I am starting to agree with. 

I used to think  the problem with our system is that the 14th amendment has been used to confer the rights of the individual to corporations (which are legal fictions), creations of the state.  This is part of the problem.  The government can do things to corporations that it cannot do to individuals, because corporations are non-persons, and have no God given rights, as such.  Unfortunately lawyers have argued, successfully (witness the latest Supreme Court decision) that because corporations are owned by the shareholders, which are persons, that rights should be conferred to corporations.

Now, after being exposed to some of Bellocs writings, I think that even if these corporations were restricted from influencing our government through lobby, and legislation in their favor, individuals, even though they achieved success through their own merit would follow the same path, because in pure capitalism, the capital should flow to those most successful.  Over time the government will pass laws to allow more capital to flow to those that are successful for "the right reasons", and thereby stacking the deck in their favor (e.g. Bigger is better).  I think we can all agree that bigger usually means cheaper, but not necessarily better.  Just think of all the "cheap" trinkets that we all own...are we better off with them than the older items that were created by craftsmen? 

I really don't do Belloc's writing justice, but it certainly has given me a new perspective.  I too read a lot from the von Mises camp, and agreed with most of it, in theory, but have struggled with the propensity of Capitalism to become corporatism which migrates to fascism, which is really where we have ended up. 

OKgranny
Quote
I should really stay out of this discussion as I haven't read enough yet, just started "The Servile State" by Belloc but true socialism has failed and to me capitalism is crumbling. It seems to me we are just continuing a cycle that has failed repeatedly When I look around I see the "nobility and peasant" mentality alive and well except our nobility are the wealthy, not necessarily a bloodline. Just my 1/4 cent worth.
Posted on: Yesterday at 01:18:26 PMPosted by: johngalt 

Never stay out of the discussion.  The reading part should supplement your experience and observations.  Theory is just that.  If a theory states something should be so, but in reality, it doesn't work that way, the theory probably is flawed.  It's even worse than Nobilty and Peasant, because at least the nobility had a certain aire of "class" associated with them, desireable qualities (educated, charitable, brave, etc.) other than riches, which the peasants would at least admire and emulate.  What qualities do our rich and famous "nobility" class have that we should emulate?

Offline P_Coltrane

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Re: Flee to the Fields
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2010, 10:39:08 PM »
  Amazing reading...especially how these guys knew what was coming 70 years ago..


It's not that they saw this coming 70 years ago, it's that people have been facing the same issues for a very long time.

Offline LvsChant

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Re: Flee to the Fields
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2010, 10:01:34 PM »
I just ordered two books... The Servile State and Economics for Helen... looking forward to reading them both.

Offline Shrugger

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Re: Flee to the Fields
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2010, 01:26:02 PM »
I have recently been reading Friedrich Hayek.  An important point he makes (in The Road to Serfdom) is that one of the few duties of the state as regards trade is to promote competition.  The "crony capitalism" that springs up, in which large corporations use their lobbying powers to erect barriers to competition, including support for regulatory regimes that only a large corporation with a big revenue stream can readily handle, is contrary to the principles of liberty.  In theory, if not in practice, capitalism should be sustainable, but only if the government avoids getting in bed with specific capitalists.

Offline johngalt

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Re: Flee to the Fields
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2010, 12:04:01 AM »
I just ordered two books... The Servile State and Economics for Helen... looking forward to reading them both.

Still waiting on my copy of "The Servile State".  Just finished the last chapter of Economics for Helen.  Very interesting read, especially the chapter about "economic imaginaries".  Looking forward to your thoughts. 

Is your handle a reference to Gregorian Chant?

Offline LvsChant

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Re: Flee to the Fields
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2010, 07:03:17 PM »

Is your handle a reference to Gregorian Chant?

Yes... completely mystifies most preppers... I direct a schola and am a complete chant and sacred music nut!

Offline johngalt

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Re: Flee to the Fields
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2010, 07:32:04 PM »
Quote
I direct a schola and am a complete chant and sacred music nut!

That's awesome.  Unfortunately I was born post Vatican II so I missed out on it growing up, although our novus ordo was not as banal as most are these days. 

Picked up The Servile State, The Man Who Made Gold by Belloc, and The Utopia of Userers and Orthodoxy by G.K. Chesterton.

Offline LvsChant

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Re: Flee to the Fields
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2010, 09:02:50 PM »
I also never heard any chant at all growing up... only learned about chant in the past few years... check out www.musicasacra.com Wonderful resource for sacred music.
[hijack over]

I'm looking forward to the two Belloc books... I also have his book about How the Reformation Began... very informative.

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Re: Flee to the Fields
« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2010, 06:06:36 PM »
lvschant ,

Your correct on the Catholic social justice thing they were everywhere with Catholics for govt healthcare indc 2 weeks ago.
That really threw me for a loop when i saw that and they were quite arrogant they may have been plants for all i know but
what a sight.

Offline LvsChant

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Re: Flee to the Fields
« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2010, 09:32:44 PM »
Yes... from my experience, a large number of Catholics are very supportive of big-spending social programs and redistribution of wealth. Despite the fact that there is a big disconnect between the Church teaching on the sanctity of life and the main political party of socialist policies, somehow a huge number of purportedly devout Catholics support socialized everything, as do many Catholic politicians. I am thinking there must be a big rationalization going on in order to somehow think that the socialist policies override the life issue.

It saddens me, but I seriously doubt the folks you saw in D.C. were plants. Fiscally conservative Catholic is not a label you'll find everyday. haha.

But... I have myself taken a turn towards a political topic on a topic about books by Hillaire Belloc and his ideas on economics... we should really head back in that direction. Politics can be a very sensitive topic and so political topics reside on a post-restricted part of the forum.

[back to the topic at hand]

I've been reading Belloc's Servile State and am beginning to see how his views diverge from Austrian economics... Looking at the history of the reformation in England and the massive confiscation of Catholic Church property (which was then redistributed to already-wealthy nobility, effectively putting nearly 50% of all property -- they already had about 30% + the 20% taken from the Churches and monasteries-- into the hands of a very few), you can see how a sort of oligarchy developed. He seems to be calling the result of that situation Capitalism, in which those relatively few families controlled the fortunes and lives of the majority of individuals and molded the way in which the Industrial Revolution began... Without the property confiscation and redistribution in favor of a few, perhaps the balance of power wouldn't have been so upset as to allow things to progress the way they did.

I've still got more to read, though, so will continue on.

The Servile State edition I bought from Amazon was not very well proofed... very hard to follow in places because of the extremely high number of errors in the typesetting.

Offline johngalt

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Re: Flee to the Fields
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2010, 07:47:35 PM »
Quote
The Servile State edition I bought from Amazon was not very well proofed... very hard to follow in places because of the extremely high number of errors in the typesetting

I usually try to borrow the older books from our library system...I've found that they have some nice old editions that haven't been butchered.  The ones from IHS press are usually fairly good also, but I definitely like the oldies....and sometimes the originals. 

Should finish The Servile State this weekend...

Isn't it interesting that what today is portrayed as Catholic social teaching, Belloc, and Catholics up until the 20th Century would have just called collectivism and contrary to Catholic Social teaching of the day?  Today they seem to forget that private property is a component to human happiness...now I think some people have let greed take over and believe that stuff IS happiness.

Offline LvsChant

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Re: Flee to the Fields
« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2010, 08:55:20 PM »
I usually try to borrow the older books from our library system...I've found that they have some nice old editions that haven't been butchered.  The ones from IHS press are usually fairly good also, but I definitely like the oldies....and sometimes the originals. 

Should finish The Servile State this weekend...

Isn't it interesting that what today is portrayed as Catholic social teaching, Belloc, and Catholics up until the 20th Century would have just called collectivism and contrary to Catholic Social teaching of the day?  Today they seem to forget that private property is a component to human happiness...now I think some people have let greed take over and believe that stuff IS happiness.

Yes! and I think that many people interpret Church teaching on social issues in order to suit their own agenda... We are all encouraged to practice almsgiving and charity, but that teaching doesn't include the idea of forcing anyone else to also do so by law. What is a good thing has been distorted by taking it out of the purview of the individual... and much of the good we gain from our own charitable acts is lost when it is done through forced confiscation (taxation and redistribution to the "needy").

Just my own personal opinion :)

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Re: Flee to the Fields
« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2010, 08:40:29 AM »
Fellow Survivalists,

I hate to be a gadfly, but facts are facts.  Judging from the headlines, the greatest threat to the lives, liberties, and security of members of the Catholic Church is the clergy.  If the Church can't protect its youngest, most innocent members from molester priests, it sure can't protect members from a Collectivist totalitarian State.


Offline LvsChant

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Re: Flee to the Fields
« Reply #20 on: April 03, 2010, 09:19:34 AM »
Snug in my pod,

I am sure that, from the media coverage, one could get the idea that the clergy is bent on the destruction of the Church's most vulnerable members -- the children. While it seems to be an open field day on attacking the Church (and certainly I can't condone the method with which some bishops have tried to brush aside known problems), there are many holy and loving priests, who have only the best of hopes and actions toward our youth. My own pastor is one of them. While the diocesan organization has many programs in place intended to protect the youngsters, it is ultimately the responsibility of parents to assure that their children are safe.

In fact, the parents of children who were harmed by priests had the responsibility to their own children and to society in general to file criminal reports against these priests, rather than allowing the Church hierarchy to handle these issues internally. If criminal reports had been filed (as they would have been with any other molester), the issue of bishops covering up these problems wouldn't have even been possible. Priest molesters deserve no more leeway than any other of the slime that is this group of individuals. Just my humble opinion.

In our society, there are many places that seem to be possible places for the molestation of children -- schools, clubs, daycare centers. We all would like to think that church activities would be "safe" for our kids... but history has proven otherwise. In fact, those who would do harm to children are very adept at choosing activities (as volunteers or as a career path) that would give them a position of trust. That is a difficult thing to tackle for all churches, not just the Catholic Church. For some reason, Christian churches in general, and (ISTM) the Catholic church seems to be a favorite target for the liberal media.

In our society, in which most abuse happens to children from other family members or friends, we can't be too vigilant in our efforts to protect the innocence of our kids. We can't just assume our kids our safe anywhere... we have to be watchful and careful and equip our kids with knowledge as they grow older and work constantly ourselves to assure their safety.

All that being said... I think it is highly unfair to label an entire group of men who selflessly offer their lives in service to the Church as being a bunch of perverts. It would be the same as labeling all teachers, or all Protestant ministers, or all sports coaches. Each of those groups have had their share of molesters, yet don't seem to be receiving the same type of vicious attack by the media.

And... I don't expect the Catholic church to protect me from a Collectivist totalitarian State, either. I don't check my brain at the vestibule...

SnugInMyPod

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Re: Flee to the Fields
« Reply #21 on: April 03, 2010, 11:32:34 PM »
Howdy, lvschant!

You wrote:

Since I think that religion and morality are two different things, I agree that people can do the right thing, regardless of their professed religion and regardless of their title or lack thereof.  

It's just that here, too many of the clergy simply aren't doing the right thing and it is true for both Catholic and Protestant clergy, as well as religious practitioners the world over.  (I don't mean to pick on Catholicism exclusively, it's just that the topic is timely.)  If I'm off-topic for this thread, though, this subject could go elsewhere and I'll understand fully.

« Last Edit: April 03, 2010, 11:34:49 PM by SnugInMyPod »

Offline johngalt

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Re: Flee to the Fields
« Reply #22 on: April 05, 2010, 11:51:39 AM »
This is exactly why I started this thread.  Some parts of the Catholic Church (yes it does flow all the way to the Vatican, and the Curia, although I believe that Benedict is trying to be the counterrevolution - read back to tradition and away from modernism) have been infiltrated by "The Smoke of Satan" as Pope Paul VI indicated before his untimely death after Vatican II.  Ever since Vatican II, liberals, modernists, et. al. have been taking leadership positions within the Church and using the ambiguous parts of the documents of Vatican II against the traditional teaching of the Church.  During this time, the so-called "Lavender mafia" have been taking the leadership positions - bishops around the US and evidently Europe as well and promoting those who have what is considered by the Catholic Church to be a defect in character - specifically homosexuality - which used to be a cause for dismissal from the Seminary.  In fact, statistically it has been shown that the vast majority of these "pedophilia" cases were, in fact perpetrated by homosexual priests against young boys, so pedophilia (indicating molestation of both boys and girls) is an inaccurate term.  Benedict has indicated in the past that he recognizes this as the root of the problem, so hopefully he can root it out at the seminaries.  I have a very good friend who went to seminary and dropped out because, in his words, it was like a gay fraternity.....the stories are enough to make one cry.

Quote
the Church can't protect its youngest, most innocent members from molester priests, it sure can't protect members from a Collectivist totalitarian State.

Unfortunately, Satan has been trying to attack Christ's Church since he bound him 2010 years ago this Sunday, but we should have faith that He said "the gate of Hell shall not prevail" over His Church.  That being said, the Church needs to put the "politially correct police" away and get back to leading the Church, and that would start will rooting all of the illicit activity /candidates from the Seminaries, and fessing up the cause of these horrible acts.  While the percentage of  abuse may not be any worse than the general population, the Church has a higher calling and should not be "no worse" than the rest of society.  

 
At any rate, I found these books amazingly interesting both, because unfortunately they are not taught in our Catholic Schools, and because of their relevance in promoting self sufficiency and freedom.  These authors were not tainted by the last 50 years of unabated Modernism in our world today, and still had a clear understanding of Catholic Social teaching, which at its core is what is good for all mankind...and living a self sufficient life is certainly a part of that teaching.

lvschant...Let me know when you get to the Chapters about Socialism, and how they were really instituting the Servile State.  It is very creepy that what was occuring in England then has certainly been happening here in the US for the past few decades.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2010, 01:11:16 PM by lvschant »

Offline LvsChant

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Re: Flee to the Fields
« Reply #23 on: April 05, 2010, 08:45:51 PM »
Howdy, lvschant!

You wrote:

Since I think that religion and morality are two different things, I agree that people can do the right thing, regardless of their professed religion and regardless of their title or lack thereof. 

It's just that here, too many of the clergy simply aren't doing the right thing and it is true for both Catholic and Protestant clergy, as well as religious practitioners the world over.  (I don't mean to pick on Catholicism exclusively, it's just that the topic is timely.)  If I'm off-topic for this thread, though, this subject could go elsewhere and I'll understand fully.



Snug in my pod... if I said that, I don't recall... maybe it was someone else? However, I do believe that all human beings have God's law written on their hearts, regardless of whether they even acknowledge His existence. There are (and have been) people who live according to that law to the best of their ability (many without any formal knowledge of what God has revealed to us) as long as mankind has been around.

I believe that God would like every person to be with Him in heaven... and that many people who were never taught any formal religion will be there and will be ready to greet those of us who are fortunate enough to follow after.


While the percentage of  abuse may not be any worse than the general population, the Church has a higher calling and should not be "no worse" than the rest of society. 

 
At any rate, I found these books amazingly interesting both, because unfortunately they are not taught in our Catholic Schools, and because of their relevance in promoting self sufficiency and freedom.  These authors were not tainted by the last 50 years of unabated Modernism in our world today, and still had a clear understanding of Catholic Social teaching, which at its core is what is good for all mankind...and living a self sufficient life is certainly a part of that teaching.

lvschant...Let me know when you get to the Chapters about Socialism, and how they were really instituting the Servile State.  It is very creepy that what was occuring in England then has certainly been happening here in the US for the past few decades.

I agree with you that we have a right to expect more than "no worse than" from our clergy... I am hopeful that things are improving and that orthodoxy is on the upswing in many places. Perhaps my opinion may be a little bit biased, but I also think the increase in numbers of home-schooled Catholic families is helping this along. When we take the responsibility for the catechesis of our children, we can assure that they learn the truths properly. I have heard that the percentage of vocations among home-schooled children is dramatically higher than from among the general parish populace.

I think my friend Possenti mentioned that in one of Pope Benedict's encyclicals he mentioned how very detrimental to the souls of individuals it is to live on charity for extended periods of time. I think he mentioned that it was Caritas et veritate. I haven't yet read it myself, but hope to do so.

I am not quite halfway through The Servile State, having been interrupted by all the activities of Holy Week, as well as another proofreading job. I hope to finish the job by Wednesday, after which I can begin again on the Belloc Book. I'll read Economics for Helen after that... looking forward to it.

Offline johngalt

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Re: Flee to the Fields
« Reply #24 on: April 07, 2010, 11:03:07 AM »
lvschant -
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However, I do believe that all human beings have God's law written on their hearts, regardless of whether they even acknowledge His existence
.  Very well put, and is the position of the Church, by the way. 

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but I also think the increase in numbers of home-schooled Catholic families is helping this along. When we take the responsibility for the catechesis of our children, we can assure that they learn the truths properly. I have heard that the percentage of vocations among home-schooled children is dramatically higher than from among the general parish populace.

I would have to agree with you on this, in every regard.

Snug in my pod...you are justified in having some indignation toward the failings of the human part of the Church...I had a VERY difficult time coming to grasp with the dual nature of the Church....that is the human side which, unfortunately is frail and sinful, versus the divine side, which is infallible.  Sometimes it's hard to separate the two....Ten years ago, I sort of threw my hands up at the Church (of course, the poor catechism didn't help) when these scandals broke out in the US.  That is why Tradition is so important, because if we evaluate all developments in the church in light of Tradition, we will see the things that are not infallible exposed for what they are....human error.

back to the book discussion...The compilation book(let) "Flee to the Fields" was interesting, in that it promotes -  what I'd be willing to bet a lot of people on the forum believe -about being a self sufficient, land owning family being one of the best ways to live a "happy life".  This is the environment in which humans can grow closer to God the best.  I was amazed that this was "pushed" by the Catholic Church several years ago, and spurred the reading of some of the contributors, being Belloc, et.al.


This  traditional perspective, what Belloc coins for lack of a better term as distributism,  is very similar to a very prominant non-Catholic founder of the U.S. being Thomas Jefferson, (in my opinion at least).  I do know that Jefferson felt that the U.S. would be the best society because it was agrarian based....very much a "distibutist" view.  And that the property was in the hands of the people, widely distributed among the population, not concentrated in the hands of a few.  I know it is contrary to the indoctrination we all got in our Modern school system, but this is, if not in theory, the reality in practice of Capitalism, to concentrate the means of production into the hands of the few.  That is not what this country was founded upon.  What Belloc outlines in "The Servile State" is that Capitalism is at best tranitory.  It produces a state that becomes unstable, in that the owners concentrate the wealth at the expense of the "proletariat" workers...and at some point, change occurs to "stabilize" the state, and that change Tnds toward the establishment of the Servile state, not collectivism.  The methods by which this change occurs is outlined by Belloc and amazingly has really happened.  It must be noted that he was writing this in the early 1900's, a time when there was no "minimum wage" etc. and he predicted that these things would be instituted, and not bring about the collectivist state ( even though they would be proposed by "socialists types" , but the servile state.  Again, the collectivist state was untenable in Belloc's view, because it did not recognize the right to private property.

I finished The Servile State, and started reading Chesterton's "The Utopia of Usurers".  It  seems like it will be good too.

Offline LvsChant

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Re: Flee to the Fields
« Reply #25 on: April 07, 2010, 02:11:01 PM »
I love to read Chesterton... it is not usually a fast read... but I find myself stopping and chuckling or laughing out loud at the way he describes things quite frequently. I have not read The Utopia of Userers... sounds like a good one.

I agree with the idea of "Capitalism" as Belloc terms it (probably would most closely correspond to what Austrian economists refer to as "Conservatism" -- the anti-egalitarian, reactionary answer to the dynamic changes set in motion by a liberalized society... in some ways an attempt to return to feudalism, trying to conserve the status quo, the highly unequal distribution of property, wealth, and income... with the idea being to stop or slow down the permanent changes and mobility processes brought about by liberalism and "distributism" as much as possible and to recreate a stable and orderly social system in which everyone remains securely in the position that the past had assigned to him (paraphrased from Hoppe's A Theory of Socialism and Capitalism). ... the rich stay rich and the poor stay poor... and the same families remain in charge, generation following generation...

It is requiring huge efforts on the part of our govt. (ever more regulations, laws, takeover of private enterprise) to maintain this... and I believe it is very unstable.

It is unfortunate that the terminology used by Belloc is at odds with Austrian economists... can be a bit confusing in conversations... when Austrians would be referring to what Belloc calls Distributism (or something fairly similar) when using the word Capitalism... and vice versa.

Offline johngalt

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Re: Flee to the Fields
« Reply #26 on: April 07, 2010, 09:16:32 PM »
I agree....even Belloc disliked the term distributism, but could not come up with a better descriptor.

Offline johngalt

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Re: Flee to the Fields
« Reply #27 on: April 10, 2010, 09:50:48 PM »
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love to read Chesterton... it is not usually a fast read... but I find myself stopping and chuckling or laughing out loud at the way he describes things quite frequently

You are dead on!  I started reading "Utopia" and had the exact same thought...It was a bit slower than normal, but I do like his way of describing the goofy logic of some of the opposing points of view....I've had many chuckle moments already.

Offline johngalt

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Re: Flee to the Fields
« Reply #28 on: April 26, 2010, 08:52:58 PM »
lvschant - any thoughts on The Servile State?

Offline LvsChant

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Re: Flee to the Fields
« Reply #29 on: April 26, 2010, 09:34:05 PM »
I'm back into it... about 2/3's through it... I've been proofing a very long book on economics that had me very busy for a couple of weeks...

I'm liking how he looks at the instability of the Capitalist state and how it must eventually devolve into either servile or distributive states... gosh, it sure looks like we are headed for servile...

I'm between proofing jobs right at the moment, so will be finishing this one up and then reading economics for helen...

How about you? Any new books you've been reading?

And what are your conclusions about the Servile State... (I don't mind a spoiler).