Author Topic: 100% vaccinated sailors still get a mumps outbreak  (Read 1277 times)

Offline mountainmoma

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100% vaccinated sailors still get a mumps outbreak
« on: March 15, 2019, 08:57:26 PM »
https://taskandpurpose.com/a-virus-outbreak-has-left-a-deployed-us-navy-warship-quarantined-at-sea-for-over-2-months?utm_content=buffer9fd07&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer&fbclid=IwAR1_LRgazMfYKlVpcSU8SMiUqjP-32VvaFgOiq2ZaW-7FxfTP3zH6zmUy2w

and, jacks take on it from his facebook feed today https://www.facebook.com/jack.spirko?__tn__=%2CdC-R-R&eid=ARDEh1yc8_5QadlEXlsEQA5UaCDRgVzCz_hRMxQn5uhbYqBlGh9yaVj2KilI0EmROloB8zkt_QsoFZ_k&hc_ref=ARSRAnn6RiNyMkLCJ6QLb0Mg54-LKDfzwbWn9RjbidweNjpBKnTY9Bb7swA0uE7OPV0&fref=nf

Quote
Jack Spirko
1 hr ·
They are downing playing it by calling it "Parotitis, a viral infection with symptoms similar to the mumps" but you know what that actually is, the fucking mumps. On a ship with a 100% vaccination rate. So much for muh herd immunity.

The cherry eaters are totally fucking lying! Mumps is the virus, Parotitis is an inflammation of one or both parotid glands. While other things can cause the condition, Parotitis is not a virus, the virus is the mumps.

This is why so many people do not trust the government, the drug companies and doctors right now.

Lying, lying, lying cherry eaters!

So,  my thoughts from reading the article.  Yes, it says
Quote
Viral parotitis is an infection of the saliva glands on either side of the face that's typically caused by the mumps
    SO, yeah, I agree with the asessment that "they" media, government, etc... are working very hard to talk around that the virus that causes parotitis is the mumps.  If the virus was NOT mumps, then they would have said so.  Or, rather, I cannot think of any good reason why they wouldnt.  When no other information is given, a virus caused parotits is the mumps. This is further shown by this
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Exercising caution, it was determined that all of the more than 700 service members on the Fort McHenry would receive booster vaccinations for measles, mumps, and rubella.
  So, they figure that the immunity for the mumps for this vaccinated population has worn off -- This is EXACTLY  what Jack went over in his talk on vaccines the other day  -- there is no herd immunity because the vaccine gained immunity has worn off of too much of the population

The preparedness point here is that they are not being clear or honest.  So, in the future we cannot count on them to be clear or honest. 


« Last Edit: March 15, 2019, 09:15:36 PM by mountainmoma »

Offline iam4liberty

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Re: 100% vaccinated sailors still get a mumps outbreak
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2019, 09:14:20 PM »
At best MMR is 88% effective against mumps  So 700 sailors x. 12 = 84 would expected to be vulnerable.   Herd immunity is generally  nonsense when talking about confined groups.  Under those condition only individual immunity matters.  Booster shots are going to do very little.

Offline FreeLancer

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Re: 100% vaccinated sailors still get a mumps outbreak
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2019, 09:02:50 AM »
At best MMR is 88% effective against mumps  So 700 sailors x. 12 = 84 would expected to be vulnerable.   Herd immunity is generally  nonsense when talking about confined groups.  Under those condition only individual immunity matters.  Booster shots are going to do very little.

I’m mostly in agreement with that. The mumps component of the MMR vaccine isn’t as effective as the measles component, with a wide range that can be as low 30-40% in some individuals, which has been known for decades.

Not sure why the Navy is prevaricating on this one because a mumps outbreak like this is predictable and other outbreaks have been documented among similar closely confined groups. 

Mortality from mumps is significantly lower than measles, but there are rare deaths from encephalitis, albeit at a much, much, much lower rate than encephalitis attributable to MMR.  This outbreak isn’t a game changer.

Offline mountainmoma

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Re: 100% vaccinated sailors still get a mumps outbreak
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2019, 12:03:44 PM »
Yes, these types of outbreaks should be expected

But, they are not being honest about it.   That is the big takeaway.   

You are right that mumps is has a lower effective rate, even if it doesnt wear off, which it also does wear off for some. 

But they are lying about this by not just telling us   (1)  there is a mumps outbreak   (2)  this is to be expected because it isnt that effective  (3) but that is ok because it also is not dangerous     

SO the preparedness takeway is still that they will will work hard to make the narrative fit what they want people to believe.  But, I think this is ultimately going to backfire on those who want more people to vaccinate.  SO, if you want more vaccination coverage this hurts that cause.  What people think is, if they are going to lie and mislead here, where else are they doing that (re. vaccines) ? Can we believe any of what they say about vaccines ?

 People deserve the truth and to make their own decisions.  Each vaccine needs to be talked about individually, they are not all the same. 

If it takes 95% coverage to achieve herd immunity, and if mumps vaccine is known to not reach that, as both of you state, then there is no herd immunity aurgument to mandate the mumps vaccine.  If parents want it for their child fine, but it should not be mandated as a community good. 

How short is the list of any that should be mandated ? ( remember I live in CA where a very, very long list is now MANDATED for all) How many would be a herd immunity/public good on any rational list ( I still maintain that any dangerous medications should never be mandatory), but if you were to make a list to try and make good aurguments, to convince most families, it would be just a couple things (1) tetnus (2) MR (without the mumps) (3) polio    Diptheria for those that travel at all. 

Offline Morning Sunshine

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Re: 100% vaccinated sailors still get a mumps outbreak
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2019, 12:58:30 PM »
But, they are not being honest about it.   That is the big takeaway.
.....
SO the preparedness takeway is still that they will will work hard to make the narrative fit what they want people to believe.  But, I think this is ultimately going to backfire on those who want more people to vaccinate.  SO, if you want more vaccination coverage this hurts that cause.  What people think is, if they are going to lie and mislead here, where else are they doing that (re. vaccines) ? Can we believe any of what they say about vaccines ?

 People deserve the truth and to make their own decisions.  Each vaccine needs to be talked about individually, they are not all the same. 

this.  I have a hard time believing ANYTHING .gov tells me.  I do not believe they are looking out for my good.

Quote
How short is the list of any that should be mandated ? ( remember I live in CA where a very, very long list is now MANDATED for all) How many would be a herd immunity/public good on any rational list ( I still maintain that any dangerous medications should never be mandatory), but if you were to make a list to try and make good arguments, to convince most families, it would be just a couple things (1) tetanus (2) MR (without the mumps) (3) polio    Diphtheria for those that travel at all.

also this.  My husbands family is VERY anti-vax. I had never thought about it - obviously my children would be vaccinated.  In reading his information, I came to the conclusion that there are some things I would like my children vaccinated against, but NO WHERE near the full schedule, "on time".

I think we will be taking the kids in soon to get the MMR, since my kids are all older - that is one thing I did come away with for my peace of mind - there are an awful lot of shots for tiny babies' new bodies.  I would like to get the MMR in three separate shots, but when I looked around, I think I found that they are not available individually.
And I think tetanus would be good.  I think I have him convinced on this one also.

Offline mountainmoma

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Re: 100% vaccinated sailors still get a mumps outbreak
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2019, 01:19:44 PM »
this.  I have a hard time believing ANYTHING .gov tells me.  I do not believe they are looking out for my good.

also this.  My husbands family is VERY anti-vax. I had never thought about it - obviously my children would be vaccinated.  In reading his information, I came to the conclusion that there are some things I would like my children vaccinated against, but NO WHERE near the full schedule, "on time".

I think we will be taking the kids in soon to get the MMR, since my kids are all older - that is one thing I did come away with for my peace of mind - there are an awful lot of shots for tiny babies' new bodies.  I would like to get the MMR in three separate shots, but when I looked around, I think I found that they are not available individually.
And I think tetanus would be good.  I think I have him convinced on this one also.

Our GP did not even do them all at once for my daughter when she went in at 18 yo,  he could not separate the MMR, but he did it on a seperate day, and spaced things out weeks or month, I forget, than the others she got.  Since  she was going to be traveling in 4 months from then to a couple "developing" countries ( she planned on eating and staying in rural, non-city places with street food, etc...), and is an adult sized, healthy human, she got more shots than should be required for an American school child,  but even at that our GP spaced them out.  ANd, she did have a reaction, she absolutely was sick for half a week from the MMR. 

At this point in CA you cannot go to COLLEGE without the chicken pox vaccine !  She was able to get a titer for that one, as she has natural immunity.  But it is ridiculus. 

(  The only one she had as a preschooler was Tetnus.  Tetnus is devasting to get.  She had pertussis as a one year old, and chicken pox as a grade schooler, that one was hard to find exposure to.   Without any government mandates, I would have recommended to her to get rubella as a young woman as that is devastating to a developing fetus, although as an adult they make their own decisions.  But you are right, they should be offering them seperately, for two reasons, so that the MMR can be spaced out at different times, and also for the adult women who only want the rubella vaccine,  people should be allowed to get what they want)
« Last Edit: March 16, 2019, 01:25:41 PM by mountainmoma »

Offline FreeLancer

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Re: 100% vaccinated sailors still get a mumps outbreak
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2019, 01:22:45 PM »
Remember this is a naval vessel on mission in the Black Sea and Mediterranean that has been quarantined for two months and not allowed to dock anywhere since the outbreak after leaving Romania. I got a tour of the aircraft carrier Ronald Reagan as part of a medical conference some years back and was surprised to see that, even on a ship that huge, the medical staff and facilities are pretty minuscule.  It’s a floating airport, not a hospital ship. A landing ship like the McHenry has a tenth of the crew of the Reagan.  In addition to lack of ability to identify the virus with certainty, there might be opsec reasons the Navy has kept it under wraps, too.

The CDC and public health authorities are not the same .gov organizations as the Navy and military.

There’s an even larger mumps outbreak right now in Philadelphia and nobody’s hiding it.

Offline mountainmoma

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Re: 100% vaccinated sailors still get a mumps outbreak
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2019, 01:37:02 PM »
Remember this is a naval vessel on mission in the Black Sea and Mediterranean that has been quarantined for two months and not allowed to dock anywhere since the outbreak after leaving Romania. I got a tour of the aircraft carrier Ronald Reagan as part of a medical conference some years back and was surprised to see that, even on a ship that huge, the medical staff and facilities are pretty minuscule.  It’s a floating airport, not a hospital ship. A landing ship like the McHenry has a tenth of the crew of the Reagan.  In addition to lack of ability to identify the virus with certainty, there might be opsec reasons the Navy has kept it under wraps, too.

The CDC and public health authorities are not the same .gov organizations as the Navy and military.

There’s an even larger mumps outbreak right now in Philadelphia and nobody’s hiding it.


All good points, but when have you seen the media make a list and tell us which vaccines do and do not have herd immunity as a reason to use them ?  They like to lump them all together, infer they all confer herd immunity and that all vaccine covered conditions are uniformly devastating if you get it -- remember the iron lungs......  They lie to us, directly, by ommision, by inference, etc......  about vaccines  Why is this important ? Because they have convinced the rest of our neighbors who blindly believe all that they hear on the news, they believe the message of "all vaccines always good" " anyone who doesnt do all of them on the recommended scheduale is putting your kids at risk"  And these beliefs are not true. 


Offline FreeLancer

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Re: 100% vaccinated sailors still get a mumps outbreak
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2019, 03:37:49 PM »
All good points, but when have you seen the media make a list and tell us which vaccines do and do not have herd immunity as a reason to use them ?

The "media" certainly may be guilty of that, but I don't get that sense from public health agencies.

Here's a list of available vaccinations that aren't recommended as part of the routine schedule because the risks of the vaccine outweigh the potential benefits.  Yellow fever, while considered safe, still has a fairly high adverse reaction rate compared to the routine vaccinations and only is recommended for travel to specific areas and is contraindicated for persons with certain medical conditions.  Not all vaccinations available to sell to the public are being pushed on the public.

Adenovirus
Anthrax
Japanese Encephalitis
Rabies
Smallpox
Typhoid
Yellow Fever

Offline mountainmoma

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Re: 100% vaccinated sailors still get a mumps outbreak
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2019, 05:39:23 PM »
The "media" certainly may be guilty of that, but I don't get that sense from public health agencies.

Here's a list of available vaccinations that aren't recommended as part of the routine schedule because the risks of the vaccine outweigh the potential benefits.  Yellow fever, while considered safe, still has a fairly high adverse reaction rate compared to the routine vaccinations and only is recommended for travel to specific areas and is contraindicated for persons with certain medical conditions.  Not all vaccinations available to sell to the public are being pushed on the public.

Adenovirus
Anthrax
Japanese Encephalitis
Rabies
Smallpox
Typhoid
Yellow Fever

Of course.  But, my point is that most of the ones recommended to the under 5 set have nothing to do with herd immunity and that we never see a list of which do and which dont.   So, our peers think that EVERY recommended vaccination and certainly every mandated vaccination is that way due to herd immunity.


Offline mountainmoma

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Re: 100% vaccinated sailors still get a mumps outbreak
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2019, 06:00:48 PM »
You cannot put your child in daycare, even a private home daycare that only enrolls families with your same viewpoints on this issue unless you have all mandated shots on the state of Californias scheduale, so no delaying of shots allowed  -- no religious exemptions allowed either  -- this is all pretty new

http://eziz.org/assets/docs/IMM-230.pdf

MMR, Dtap, Hep B, HIb, Polio, chicken Pox.  Multiple doses from 2 months thru 18 months.  Mandatory. 



I found the college entrance mandated vaccines up to 2002 in CA, and it was pretty basic, and you could get an exemption.  Meales/Rubella MR -- but NOT mumps.  SO, not too long ago we were using facts about which had heard immunity. I think they also recommended Hep B, may have been added in 2000.  Here is a link, note that this may not be current ! The far right column is circa about 2002,   MR required,  Hep B newly required for cal states, not UC's.  That is it.  Pretty much for a very, very long time a point was made that they realy just wanted Measles and rubella --- and certainly rubella can be devasting for developing fetus.  Mumps was not on the list -  or chicken pox   likely because the mumps vaccine does not confer a population with herd immunity and it isnt that bad of an illness -- chicken pox vaccine did not exist and it is not that bad of an illness https://www.shotsforschool.org/college/   The changes being made at the time of this chart are in the third column
« Last Edit: March 16, 2019, 06:25:55 PM by mountainmoma »

Offline mountainmoma

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Re: 100% vaccinated sailors still get a mumps outbreak
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2019, 06:20:25 PM »
.

Offline iam4liberty

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Re: 100% vaccinated sailors still get a mumps outbreak
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2019, 07:53:04 PM »
You cannot put your child in daycare, even a private home daycare that only enrolls families with your same viewpoints on this issue unless you have all mandated shots on the state of Californias scheduale, so no delaying of shots allowed  -- no religious exemptions allowed either  -- this is all pretty new

So sad.  This violates both educational and medical ethics as well as human rights.

The battle is being fought is being fought on the East coast where there are a lot more Eastern European immigrants so there is a lot more push-back, for example:

https://ctmirror.org/category/ct-viewpoints/the-case-against-mandatory-vaccination/
The case against mandatory vaccination
Don't let fear-mongering and false claims of 'crisis' drive public policy


...
The exact same politics of fear mongering, misinformation, hate and fear being used by our President to promote his border wall is also being used by legislators in our state and across the country to promote government mandated vaccination –this in response to a fake and manufactured crisis which does not exist, based on dated and misleading facts and misinformation, and the politics of fear.

To be clear, I am not anti-vax. I have worked in the pharma industry and now work in the healthcare insurance industry. My family came here from a former communist country. We understand well what happens when government is allowed to deny individual liberties and personal freedoms. We know quite well what happens when the state considers its interests to be more important than protecting the rights of its citizens.

The scientific benefits of vaccination are not in dispute. However, concerns regarding vaccine injury, today’s vaccine schedule and our government’s much too close relationship with the vaccine industry – should also not be in dispute. When it is well documented, admitted and scientific fact that many children have been severely injured or even killed as a result of adverse vaccine reactions – then government has no right or authority of any kind to place parents in a situation where our government forces them to expose their children to admitted risk and risk they deem to be unacceptable.

Our system of modern medicine only works because it was founded on the concept of doing no harm and importance of informed consent. A person has a fundamental and protected right to control what happens to their own bodies. Parents have a fundamental right to the care, custody and control of their children and their family’s medical care. Not the state.

Once we hand over that control – where does it stop?

It is curiously hypocritical that many of those who are pro-choice and against government intrusions into their personal medical decisions and choices when it comes to the issue of abortion, do not share the same concern it comes to government forced vaccination and forcing parents to inject their children with substances they may disagree with or have valid scientific concerns about.

The solution to the vaccine issue is not government mandates and more draconian government infringement of parental rights and decision making.

If our state and federal governments want people to vaccinate, the solution is better education and promoting informed consent.
...



Offline FreeLancer

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Re: 100% vaccinated sailors still get a mumps outbreak
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2019, 08:18:07 PM »
But, my point is that most of the ones recommended to the under 5 set have nothing to do with herd immunity and that we never see a list of which do and which dont.   So, our peers think that EVERY recommended vaccination and certainly every mandated vaccination is that way due to herd immunity.

These are the accepted herd immunity estimates for the common vaccinations, along with smallpox and other exotics thrown in for comparison.  Can't find a consensus estimate for Varicella, probably too new for good data, but a Colorado source reported an estimate of 88-90%.  Nothing on Hep A or B.




Don't let fear-mongering and false claims of 'crisis' drive public policy

It's a two-way street from my perspective.



Offline mountainmoma

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Re: 100% vaccinated sailors still get a mumps outbreak
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2019, 09:09:32 PM »
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« Last Edit: March 16, 2019, 09:29:52 PM by mountainmoma »

Offline Alan Georges

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Re: 100% vaccinated sailors still get a mumps outbreak
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2019, 09:41:44 PM »
Thanks for that chart, FL.  I'd been wondering about the herd immunity threshold numbers on various diseases.  I'm happily surprised that the flu threshold is relatively low.

Offline iam4liberty

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Re: 100% vaccinated sailors still get a mumps outbreak
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2019, 09:20:19 AM »
It's a two-way street from my perspective.

Not from what I have witnessed.  The people who are actively managing vaccinations for themselves and their children generally just want to be left alone.  Have yet to see teams of Amish, Orthodox Jews, or medical preppers swarming school board, city council, or congressional hearings screaming at politicians to imprison parents who vaccinate and take away their kids for child abuse.  But i regularly see pro mandatory vaxers doing that.  In fact, just saw three posts on twitter calling for more such action.

I thought I saw Mountainmama ask about what the values represented in the table but dont see it now.  For any wondering, here is a brief explanation including the math.

Herd immunity works by slowing the spread of the disease by surrounding contagious individuals with immuned ones.  This stops the disease from spreading through the entire population.

The R-value in the table represents how easily the disease is passed on.  A simple way to think about it is how many others on average a contagious person would pass the disease on to. The higher the R value, the more people it will be passed to.  The more easily a disease is passed on (e.g. airborne vs touch), the longer a person can remain contageous, the longer a person can be contageous without visible symptoms, etc all get wrapped up in this value. 

Another important value not shown on the table is the effectiveness of the vaccine (E), ie the percent of those vaccinated who gain immunity.  For measles this is estimated at 97% (0.97) with two shots.  The less effective a vaccine the more people who need to be vaccinated to create herd immunity.

With these two numbers a rough herd immunity threshold is calculated.  The mathematical equation is:

Herd Threshold = (1 - 1/R)/E

In this table it looks like they are assuming 100% effectiveness for vaccines so E = 1.

So take Ebola as an example:

Herd Immunity (R=1.5): 1 - 1/1.5 = 0.33 or 33%
Herd Immunity (R=2.5): 1 - 1/2.5 = 0.6 or 60%

That is the basic math.  It is of course simplistic.  in reality it doesnt play out by a simple equation like this.  All of these numbers tend to be very high as they assume no other actions are taken like quaranteens or even how immunization is distributed throughout the population.  Though i do see for measles they list the more realistic lower threshold of 83%. That is usually cited because of the percent of naturally derived immunity in the population.  So they might have included that in some instances in the table.

Regardless, what was meant to be a general descriptive model of how diseases spread and peter out has over time morphed into something  resembling an article of faith and rallying point for legislation.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2019, 09:36:31 AM by iam4liberty »

Offline mountainmoma

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Re: 100% vaccinated sailors still get a mumps outbreak
« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2019, 01:02:21 PM »
So, back to Mumps   Mumps does NOT have E of 1.   It is not that effective of a vaccine.   

Again, the reason that this matters is that we are being, continually, more each day and with ever more strident calls for action, from our brainwashed peers based on HERD IMMUNITY.  Our children should be removed from our homes.  We should not be allowed in any public place or conveyance.  Reminds me of the social point system in China.   

All vaccines are not the same. 

This is why I linked the article on Mumps.  Mumps vaccine may or may not protect an individual but cannot be counted on to keep mumps from spreading thru a community, so in the vernacular, it does not confer "herd immunity" which in the vernacular, so what the media feeds us to what it is inferred that it means,  it does not do this.  If I choose to not be vaccinated for mumps, doesnt change much for your kid as 30% or so of his classmates who got the vaccine are not immune either ! So mumps can still, even if 100% of the kids got the vaccine, it can easily have an outbreak and spread thru the population.  That is the point.  We are told in California that we are forced, at the point of a gun, as Jack says, to give our child this vaccine for the sole purpose of the greater good, to keep the mumps from having an outbreak in the general population, to protect the child who could not be vaccinated for it.  And this is the most obvious vaccine to show that this is a lie. 

Again, what the outbreak on the ship shows, and our doctor on this thread even concurs that this should be expected for mumps as the vaccine is not that effective.  It shows this 
Quote
But they are lying about this by not just telling us   (1)  there is a mumps outbreak   (2)  this is to be expected because it isnt that effective  (3) but that is ok because it also is not dangerous

The School system here, until the new lock-step yes to all vaccine regime change that we have has lately did not care about the mumps vaccine either ! That is why the colleges, as I showed in the other link, only required MR ( and even then, there were exemptions, but most college students that did not have a religious objection would get this, even ones who "delayed" it by not getting it when young and vulnerable to the preservatives and adjuvents)

So, why is this vaccine mandated with no exemptions in the state of California ? I say that it is to keep up the story they are feeding us, we are not allowed to discuss the realities of each individual vaccine.  Any and all vaccines must be forced for the greater good.  GIven my state of California, what they realy think is this  " we know better, we are doing this for your own good.   We know you are too stupid to think for yourselves.  If we told you that vaccines vary in their effectiveness and dangers, it would confuse you.  We are going to simplify it for you.  Just do as your told..." AND IF YOU DONT DO AS YOU'RE TOLD WE WILL CALL CPS( in some cases from the hospital at birth or at least the threat -- this will increase to older children), YOUR CHILD CANNOT GO TO ANY SCHOOL OR DAYCARE, YOU CANNOT GET WELFARE BENEFITS.  And this is just the start of it.  Over what ?  Over Mumps vaccine ? The mumps vaccine is so important ? We have all agreed here it is not. 

This is especially egrarious with the mumps vaccine, being part of the MMR, as there is no religious exemption now in the state of California and all MMR vaccines are made being grown on medium that has aborted human fetal tissue.  And we have NO RELIGIOUS EXEMPTION  even though many have moral objections to this ?  For the MUMPS ?

And, going back to Jacks talk on vaccines, which is available now on youtube, I am told, as he says, We werent having horrible disease outbreaks, we didnt have lots of deaths or bad outcomes in the 80's.  The vaccine scheduele then had much fewer recommended vaccines, and much less shots given and alot less at the under 3 age ! SO, why all the new hysteria ?   And, to the point of this thread being about MUMPS in particular, I say, why all this new hype over mumps when a few years ago our whole medical establishment saw having the mumps vaccine as no big deal ?
« Last Edit: March 17, 2019, 01:09:39 PM by mountainmoma »

Offline FreeLancer

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Re: 100% vaccinated sailors still get a mumps outbreak
« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2019, 02:34:01 PM »
Are you calling me a brainwashed liar?

Offline mountainmoma

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Re: 100% vaccinated sailors still get a mumps outbreak
« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2019, 04:27:26 PM »
Are you calling me a brainwashed liar?

Only if you are calling for removal of children from parents and even more draconian limits of said families freedoms in response to them not getting the mumps vaccine.   I have not heard you say anything like this.

I have however heard stuff like this all over in person from people in my area, on social media, letters to teh editor, etc....

you said the following, in response to IamFor Liberty, which I thought was reasonable and in agreement that mumps vaccine is not that effective, and we should expect outbreaks of it even in vaccinated groups 
Quote
Quote from: iam4liberty on March 15, 2019, 09:14:20 PM

    At best MMR is 88% effective against mumps  So 700 sailors x. 12 = 84 would expected to be vulnerable.   Herd immunity is generally  nonsense when talking about confined groups.  Under those condition only individual immunity matters.  Booster shots are going to do very little.


I’m mostly in agreement with that. The mumps component of the MMR vaccine isn’t as effective as the measles component, with a wide range that can be as low 30-40% in some individuals, which has been known for decades.

Not sure why the Navy is prevaricating on this one because a mumps outbreak like this is predictable and other outbreaks have been documented among similar closely confined groups. 

Offline FreeLancer

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Re: 100% vaccinated sailors still get a mumps outbreak
« Reply #20 on: March 17, 2019, 05:27:02 PM »
Only if you are calling for removal of children from parents and even more draconian limits of said families freedoms in response to them not getting the mumps vaccine.   I have not heard you say anything like this.

True, I have not. 

But that doesn't negate the fact that I still hold a very strong professional belief that childhood vaccines are extraordinarily safe, so much so that even those that are known to be less effective should be recommended as part of the routine vaccination schedule.  The former is informed by my philosophical belief system, the later by science.

Offline mountainmoma

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Re: 100% vaccinated sailors still get a mumps outbreak
« Reply #21 on: March 17, 2019, 06:04:47 PM »
True, I have not. 

But that doesn't negate the fact that I still hold a very strong professional belief that childhood vaccines are extraordinarily safe, so much so that even those that are known to be less effective should be recommended as part of the routine vaccination schedule.  The former is informed by my philosophical belief system, the later by science.

Recomendations are one thing, forced mandates are another. 

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Re: 100% vaccinated sailors still get a mumps outbreak
« Reply #22 on: March 17, 2019, 08:28:03 PM »
Are there public health scenarios where government force could be justified?

Offline mountainmoma

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Re: 100% vaccinated sailors still get a mumps outbreak
« Reply #23 on: March 17, 2019, 10:03:03 PM »
Are there public health scenarios where government force could be justified?

That sounds political --- I dont think we want to go there. Ask a moderator if that is allowed for a different thread

But this  thread is specifically about the mumps vaccine  --- DO you think that parents should be forced to use this vaccine  ? 


« Last Edit: March 17, 2019, 10:17:55 PM by mountainmoma »

Offline FreeLancer

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Re: 100% vaccinated sailors still get a mumps outbreak
« Reply #24 on: March 17, 2019, 11:29:16 PM »
Define force.  Were these sailors forced to get it?

Offline mountainmoma

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Re: 100% vaccinated sailors still get a mumps outbreak
« Reply #25 on: March 18, 2019, 12:59:21 AM »
Define force.  Were these sailors forced to get it?

Cut it out.  This is a simple question.   The soldiers made an agreement when they signed up for their job.  I specifically said parents

So much deflection, and you wonder why we are skeptical of doctors ?


MANDATORY  no religious exemptions, even.  You live in California and have read this thread, you know exactly what I am talking about. 

The Mumps vaccine, which is is not effective enough to preclude outbreaks even amongst the 100% vaccinated populations.  SO this vaccine, which does not have the usually used excuse of protecting the general population.  This particular vaccine which is grown on a medium using aborted fetal tissue, which  means it is objected to by some religious groups, who then are not given a religious exemption.

Forced.  You live in California, you know how expensive it is.  If this particular vaccine is not given at all, or it is delayed, deviated from Californias set scheduale then the parents of this child will  (1) not be allowed to have said child in any daycare, public, private or home daycare, even if said daycare is part of their religious group who all feel the same way (2) not be allowed to attend any school, K-12 or college, public or private, even if said school is a private religious school as there is not religious objection (3) the parent will have welfare cash aid cut  .  So, they cannot have 2 parents working or be a single parent in job training on cash aid.  They must home school.  FORCED.   Most California parents cannot have one parent at home and lnot be homeless and eat. Some can.  For most -- FORCED.   There are calls from the strident force-vaxx crowd to call this child neglect adn remove the children.  You ok with that ?  That is FORCE.

I know you recommend it, fair enough, but do you feel that the Mumps vaccine should be mandated for all in California ?  Seems a simple question.   
« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 01:05:15 AM by mountainmoma »

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Re: 100% vaccinated sailors still get a mumps outbreak
« Reply #26 on: March 18, 2019, 01:51:35 AM »
For mumps, probably not.

And dial back on the emotion, please. It was an honest question, because I am not 100% on board with your definition of FORCED.


From CDC: 

Mumps vaccine is prepared in chick embryo fibroblast tissue culture. MMR and MMRV are supplied as a lyophilized (freeze-dried) powder and are reconstituted with sterile, preservative-free water. The vaccine contains small amounts of human albumin, neomycin, sorbitol, and gelatin.


Where’s the fetus come in? 

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Re: 100% vaccinated sailors still get a mumps outbreak
« Reply #27 on: March 18, 2019, 09:05:39 PM »
Professor Mary Holland speech at UN from 2017 on anti vaccination etc. She points out that medical attitudes in the US and throughout the world in the 1930's with regards to eugenics lead to Nazi policies years later. She is warning against similar things with regards to vaccines

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aM0PFWrlD-I


Today on Jack's show, he says the government is lying about mumps related outbreak on US warship and quarantine. Stuff like this just keeps raising red flags that we are being fed propaganda and that there is an agenda behind it all. If there are any useful vaccines, the government and industry is helping to create general distrust in whatever they are pushing. If a car dealership develops a bad reputation, don't blame people who don't want to shop their even if you think they have some good cars

They want to ban books or shut down websites and people who question vaccines so that should convince me that vaccines are good ? No, it has the opposite effect. Someone is trying to hide something. It's not any one the debate about one particular vaccine that they seem to wish to silence but questions about any and all vaccines
« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 09:35:48 PM by surfivor »

Offline iam4liberty

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Re: 100% vaccinated sailors still get a mumps outbreak
« Reply #28 on: March 18, 2019, 10:34:27 PM »
Are there public health scenarios where government force could be justified?

Not really.  But they will do so anyway.  FYI, there is a separate program set up to compensate people that is rarely talked about in the press: https://www.hrsa.gov/cicp/index.html  It deals with the legal, but not moral, consequences of what they term "countermeasures".

From CDC: 

Mumps vaccine is prepared in chick embryo fibroblast tissue culture. MMR and MMRV are supplied as a lyophilized (freeze-dried) powder and are reconstituted with sterile, preservative-free water. The vaccine contains small amounts of human albumin, neomycin, sorbitol, and gelatin.


Where’s the fetus come in? 

The viruses used in the rubella and several other vaccines are literally grown in fetuses.  Specifically, the fibroblast cells have been harvested from multiple fetuses and have been kept alive for this purpose for decades.  It is a huge bioethics issue.  See here for Catholic perspective on religious exemptions in relation to this: http://www.immunize.org/talking-about-vaccines/vaticandocument.htm

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Re: 100% vaccinated sailors still get a mumps outbreak
« Reply #29 on: March 19, 2019, 06:24:30 AM »
They want to ban books or shut down websites and people who question vaccines so that should convince me that vaccines are good ? No, it has the opposite effect. Someone is trying to hide something. It's not any one the debate about one particular vaccine that they seem to wish to silence but questions about any and all vaccines

oddly profound.