Author Topic: What Do Executive Orders Say About Storing?  (Read 2963 times)

Offline Hraz

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What Do Executive Orders Say About Storing?
« on: September 30, 2009, 10:57:14 AM »
http://www.millennium-ark.net/News_Files/Exec.Orders/EOs.html

This article is from 2005. Does anyone have anything more up to date?

DISCLAIMER: Any findings of law or conclusions reached are those made by the user, and information provided on Millennium-Ark or Noah's Ark concerning state or federal law is for information and research purposes only and not to be construed as legal advice.

Can Our Government Really Tell Us How Much Food and Supplies We Can Keep?

The short answer is YES, in a roundabout way. Due to numerous discussions questioning the existence of federal anti-hoarding legislation, I wanted to see if such Executive Orders had been written. First and foremost, we do not want to suggest people store items beyond "legal limits" if such limits did exist. Second, we want to separate fact from rumor buzzing around the Internet which has only added to the confusion. This search has yielded no federal legislation aimed directly at prohibiting food storage. But this does not mean "hoarding" is legal, and here's why.

So What Exactly Is An Executive Order?

Executive Orders (EO) have been used by presidents since the days of George Washington. The first EO addressed Washington's normal household expenses which ones were be accepted and paid by the Treasury Department. Pretty innocuous. The FBI was formed under an executive order by Teddy Roosevelt on July 26, 1908. The first time it was used to make a law was in 1916 by President Woodrow Wilson. It was said to be an 'emergency' measure and Congress was encouraged to validate it. They did and now the door was now open to ignore the Constitution. This is the same method used by Franklin Roosevelt in 1933 to close all the banks in the country. Americans were ordered to turn in all their gold to local banks.

The general purpose of an executive order is to provide the President with a mechanism for executing laws passed by Congress, not control of lives. These EOs are issued by the President as directives to agencies responsible for implementing laws.

However, some presidents take Executive Orders too far confusing EO with executive lawmaking. This "rule by executive order" observation was made no clearer than by Paul Begala, a former Bill Clinton aide: "Stroke of the pen. Law of the land. Kind of cool."1

While Begala thought this action "cool", others did not. House Majority Leader Dick Armey said, "With the stroke of a pen, he may have done irreparable harm to individual rights and liberties." He went on to add, "President Clinton seems bent on using his powers until someone says stop. President Clinton is running roughshod over our Constitution."2 NOTE: December 12, 2001, Dick Armey announced retirement at the end of his 2002 term.

Since the U.S. Constitution places responsibility for executing laws in the hands of the President, issuing EOs is an appropriate means of carrying out the responsibilities IF they are within the bounds of the Constitution. President Kennedy, during his short time in office, signed into law 214 Executive Orders. Numerous Kennedy EOs have brought about positive changes for the American people such as:

11063 - Equal Opportunity in Housing

10914 - Food Distribution to Needy Families

11022 - Council on Aging

11925 - Equal Opportunity in Employment

These Kennedy EOs have a distinctly different flavor though aimed at preserving individual rights, not usurping them. Many EOs overstep Constitutional authority and consequently, are an exercise of unconstitutional power.



So Where Do Anti-Hoarding Laws Come In?

These ideas of anti-hoarding legislation may have stemmed from two areas of confusion:

First is from Executive Orders in place dating back to 1939 which Clinton has grouped together under one order, EO #12919 released on June 6, 1994. The following EOs all fall under EO#12919:

10995--Federal seizure of all communications media in the US;
10997--Federal seizure of all electric power, fuels, minerals, public and private;
10998--Federal seizure of all food supplies and resources, public and private and all farms and equipment;
10999--Federal seizure of all means of transportation, including cars, trucks, or vehicles of any kind and total control over all highways, seaports and water ways;
11000--Federal seizure of American people for work forces under federal supervision, including the splitting up of families if the government so desires;
11001--Federal seizure of all health, education and welfare facilities, both public and private;
11002--Empowers the Postmaster General to register every single person in the US
11003--Federal seizure of all airports and aircraft;
11004--Federal seizure of all housing and finances and authority to establish forced relocation. Authority to designate areas to be abandoned as "unsafe," establish new locations for populations, relocate communities, build new housing with public funds;
11005--Seizure of all railroads, inland waterways and storage facilities, both public and private;
11051--Provides FEMA complete authorization to put above orders into effect in times of increased international tension of economic or financial crisis (FEMA will be in control incase of "National Emergency").



These EOs are not aimed at anti-hoarding but rather at seizure or confiscation of items and facilities "to provide a state of readiness in these resource areas with respect to all conditions of national emergency, including attack upon the United States." You'll find most 'seizure' legislation ends with this phrase. These Executive Orders don't define what specifically constitutes a national emergency and maybe this is as it should be. The specifics on hoarding are left up to the individual states.

What Is FEMA's Role?

EO #11051 is interesting; it authorizes FEMA near-total power in times of crisis. There's been lots of discussion on the Internet regarding the excessive control FEMA has been granted and it was pointedly commented upon in July's world premiere movie release of the "X-Files".

FEMA was created by President Carter under Executive Order #12148. Its legal authorization is Title 42, United States Code 5121 (42 USC Sec. 5121) called the "Stafford Act." During activation of Executive Orders, FEMA answers only to the National Security Council which answers only to the President. Once these powers are invoked, not even Congress can intervene or countermand them for six months.

What Clinton, or Reagan, or any other president did when writing an EO, was to direct his Cabinet member(s), in this case FEMA, to take specific action to carry out the directives of the EO. Where Jimmy Carter had created FEMA by Esecutive Order in 1979, Robert Safford took it a step futher and pushed a bill through in 1988 that made it law. This legislation made FEMA a bonafide department like Justice. Where the EO is critical to the USC (United States Code) and Title 50, is in interpreting the law how that department or FEMA, should conduct itself when declaring they will tell the states, national guard, military forces, or whomever, to confiscate extra hoarded food or medical supplies or whatever...

We must also consider any PDD (Presidential Decision Directives) Ok, so who will determine how much food we have in our house - why FEMA of course. And the amount depends on the need of all...not your needs or my needs...but the "welfare" of the the needy.

Bottom line? Clinton delegated authority to FEMA to run the show however it sees fit if he declares a national emergency. Who will determine how much food we can have in our house? FEMA. And the amount depends on the needs of all...not your needs or my needs...but the "welfare" of the needy.

Many people have balked about FEMA's extensive authority, but think about it, what other agency has the manpower to cover and implement aid? As it is, FEMA still does not have the manpower to control every city all over the US in times of crisis. Chances are they would only be dispatched to larger metropolitan areas where more crowd control might be needed. Lots of people suggest darker reasons for their existence, but this site is only addressing anti-hoarding legislation, nothing else.

EO #11051 covering "economic or financial crisis" certainly would have terrorism implications as well. An emergency does not have to be defined as another Hurricane Hugo or massive Midwestern flooding.

State Legislation's Role in Anti-Hoarding

The other area where anti-hoarding confusion might have arisen is state legislation. Most states have chosen to enact their own anti-hoarding laws. That means some states may not have such laws, others do and not all are uniform. However, uniformity of state law is something governors are striving for under the Interstate Compact Agreement. The Compact Agreements, much like Executive Orders for the president, really don't require voters' input. They are law if the legislature doesn't object, much like Congress that has 30 days to object to an EO before it becomes law.

At times of "declared emergencies", each governor cedes (gives over) authority of his/her state to the federal government. When a governor declares it for his state, he becomes the delegated representative of the federal government according to an Interstate Compact Agreement. Bottom line, even though federal legislation does not directly address anti-hoarding, goods can be seized if national circumstances are felt to warrant it whether or not amounts stored are deemed excessive in your state's eyes.

How Can I Find The Legislation for My State?

Since these anti-hoarding laws are not federal in nature, one would need to look at Titles for his/her own state. These statutes should be located under Public Safety laws or titles. For specific URLs go to State Legislation Locator. To locate information for your state, look for laws about:

Blood Typing 
Disaster Preparedness 
Emergencies
Hoarding
Injections
Martial Law
Militia
National Guard 
Public Safety or Public Welfare
State Militia
State Police Force
Hawaii As A Specific Example of Anti-Hoarding

For Hawaii, this information will be found in Title 10 under "Public Safety". It is located after legislation on militias, state guard troops, etc. Then you find the jewel... In Hawaii you are considered a "hoarder" if you have more than one week's provisions on hand BUT you have to dig to uncover this information. Here is a specific example:

"HAWAII REVISED STATUTES REVISED 1997, Title 10:

(1) Prevention of *hoarding, waste, etc. To the extent necessary to prevent hoarding, waste, or destruction of materials, supplies, commodities, accommodations, facilities, and services, to effectuate equitable distribution thereof, or to establish priorities therein as the public welfare may require, to investigate, and any other law to the contrary notwithstanding, to regulate or prohibit, by means of licensing, rationing, or otherwise, the storage, transportation, use, possession, maintenance, furnishing, sale, or distribution thereof, and any business or any transaction related thereto."

Committee Notes? Huh?

In the actual Title document for Hawaii, you will not find the specifics for what length of time constitutes "hoarding" nor an amount. Instead, you must look at the committee notes which describes it as the opinion that one week's supplies per person is considered adequate food provisions. It is not spelled out what those provisions shall consist of or how much is considered "adequate" until you get to the committee notes.

You will probably have to "dig" for the committee notes as well. Lynn Shaffer, our legislative interpreter, explains committee notes this way. "When the legislature agrees that a law or statute is needed to effect certain governmental goals to prohibit or encourage civilians to respond in a particular way, that statute has attached to it (you will see it printed in the law books) what is called "committee notes." The courts, when making a determination of how the statute is to be interpreted and applied to the case before it, looks to "legislative intent" or what was recorded in the committee's notes when the bill was meandering its way through the legislative process."

OK, So If I Hoard, Then What?

Again using Hawaii's Titles as an example, any items in excess of what legislation has deemed appropriate to store (in Hawaii's case any amount over 1 week) is subject to forfeiture and may be confiscated, ordered destroyed or may be redistributed for public use. See exact text below:

"128-28 Forfeitures. The forfeiture of any property unlawfully possessed, pursuant to paragraph (2) of section 128-8, may be adjudged upon conviction of the offender found to be unlawfully in possession of the same, where no person other than the offender is entitled to notice and hearing with respect to the forfeiture, or the forfeiture may be enforced by an appropriate civil proceeding brought in the name of the State. The district courts and circuit courts shall have concurrent jurisdiction of the civil proceedings. Any property forfeited as provided in this section may be ordered destroyed, or may be ordered delivered for public use to such agency as shall be designated by the governor or the governor's representative, or may be ordered sold, wholly or partially, for the account of the State. [L 1951, c 268, pt of 2; RL 1955, 359-25; HRS 128- 28; am imp L 1984, c 90, 1]"

It's The Pits Everywhere!

Before you say "I'm outta here! Book me on the next flight to Australia!", let me share a couple tidbits with you. Asking Stan where one might find anti-hoarding legislation for Australia he replied, " it probably isn't available to the public if it exists."

It is not just Americans who may be under the gun for seizure activities by the government. Right here, right now in Ballarat, three things have come to light last year:

1. If rain becomes scarce again, there is legislation waiting to be signed which will put usage taps on private water bores on private property. Again this is pending legislation since rain has not become critical in Ballarat - yet. Legislators are hesitant to pass this bill as it will be met with much resistance from the farming community, but it's in the wings.

2. Water bores on private property must be registered with the shire (county) and aerial photos are taken of all bores and dam reservoirs.

3. This last piece of interesting news was shared by our neighbor who has lived in Ballarat for decades. It should be the least popular measure so far. If another drought came to this area, private water tanks will be metered and taxed for usage! It's a good thing it wasn't fly season as hearing this made my jaw hit the pavement. The alternate plan, equally unpalatable, is to assess current rainfall levels and tax the owner by the size his tank(s)!

What I think of this is not printable on the Net. Here we've purchased the property, the tanks themselves and paid for installation of same and filled them with FREE rainwater for which we may be taxed for our prudence. This is truly amazing since as I write this section, we're gazing at moss growing on our trees and brick sidewalks. So what really is being set up?

Before you think America has gone to hell with rights' forfeitures, remember your friends across the ocean. America is no more ridiculous than this, if you discount Zippergate.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By now, many of you in other countries may be wondering what your own legislation says about hoarding. If you have documentable information, we will be happy to upload it to this page, but I simply don't have access to it. It was "interesting" enough navigating the U.S. legislation, but imagine being a "dern furiner" ("darned foreigner") trying to find information in another country. Any material may be submitted anonymously but hearsay will not be accepted.

EOs have not been widely publicized but you can get copies of them. They are all printed in the U.S. Federal Register and have the force of law when activated by a president. You can contact your congressman for information on how to get copies of these EOs, or check your local library.

1James Bennet, "True to Form, Clinton Shifts Energies Back to U.S. Focus"; New York Times, July 5, 1998
2Kerby Anderson Commentary Executive Orders; November 2, 1999; http://www.probe.org/docs/c-executive.html


Offline dep190

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Re: What Do Executive Orders Say About Storing?
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2009, 02:24:38 PM »
This is a scarry thought! i am a firm believer in midnight gardening  to secdure items!

mich@el

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Re: What Do Executive Orders Say About Storing?
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2009, 11:51:23 PM »
While not a USA specific answer, I have an acquittance who is quite high up in the Queensland Police Service (AUSTRALIA) and who is also a member of the LDS Church (big on food storage). He stated to me that in a SHTF scenario the police would confiscate/take control of all known food  storage's including those of the church of which he is a member of. This was very concerning to me because I do not believe that ANY .gov could do a better job than me of providing for me & mine in a disaster situation.

I now keep a very low profile on what (if any) food storage etc I may have and where it may be located.

mich@el

Offline Herbalpagan

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Re: What Do Executive Orders Say About Storing?
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2009, 06:48:53 AM »
From what I have read and heard, you can store any amount, as long as it doesn't become a health hazard (bugs, weight etc.), but beware that in times of an emergency, the government can confiscate it.
FEMA people will state on their sites that 71 hours is the minimum, but that wouldn't have done Katrina people any good. They reccommend that 2 weeks is great, but when talking to a couple of FEMA guys in my state, they think 30 days should be the minimum.  I choose to go over that (by a long shot), but I am aware that in an emergency, it could be targeted.  I don't care; better safe than sorry. Besides, in a real long term emergency, those fellas will be busy doing other things. Maybe as long as a year after, they might come to our house and ask about garden produce.

Offline skanav22

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Re: What Do Executive Orders Say About Storing?
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2012, 10:24:44 PM »
In this same vein has anyone heard about the National Defense Authorization act?  I just read about it in a comment posted under a youtube video for the upcoming preppers series.

I quote "if you have weapons or ammo stocked up or more than 7 days? worth of food stocked up you can be detained by the U.S military indefinatley


Is this legit?

As I have stated before I lost it all in Katrina and I keep things on hand for those just in case situations.

Thanks

Offline jerryc

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Re: What Do Executive Orders Say About Storing?
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2019, 06:13:03 PM »
I know this is an old thread, but it fits my question. When I am purchasing for long term food storage needs, should it be purchased with cash, to prevent tracking by government entities? I am thinking they can obtain records through food storage merchants, and can track down my purchases, and then confiscate them.

I can buy locally through a health food store any food preps for long term storage.

Thanks for any feed back.

Offline Morning Sunshine

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Re: What Do Executive Orders Say About Storing?
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2019, 07:25:08 PM »
I know this is an old thread, but it fits my question. When I am purchasing for long term food storage needs, should it be purchased with cash, to prevent tracking by government entities? I am thinking they can obtain records through food storage merchants, and can track down my purchases, and then confiscate them.

I can buy locally through a health food store any food preps for long term storage.

Thanks for any feed back.

follow the "Eat what you store and Store what you eat" method.  in other words - instead of buying 2 cans of chicken soup, buy 4 and put the extra in a box.  Honestly, no one is going to examine your grocery receipts.  Things you process yourself through canning, dehydrating or fermenting, no one will know what you have.  For LTS items in specific - freeze dried, bulk grains, etc.  That is your call.  me, I just buy what I need (usually from Rainy Day Foods cuz they have a feed store near me that reduces shipping cost) and figure that if we ever get to the serious need stage, well, we'll cross that bridge then.  For now I worry about whether or not I got the chickens ready for winter or the kids ready for school.

Offline Mr. Bill

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Re: What Do Executive Orders Say About Storing?
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2019, 07:50:11 PM »
I think you have to weigh the likelihood of various events vs the costs of preparing for them.

Here's my thinking, and feel free to disagree, but maybe this will help you make your own decision.

What kind of emergency do we need in order for the government to come after private citizens who are "hoarding" supplies?  Let's separate out short-term emergencies (hurricanes, terrorist attacks, etc) from long-term emergencies (wars or other crises that result in rationing).

For short-term emergencies, the government won't have time to obtain your purchase records and analyze them.  Also, they will have access to bigger "hoards" already held in business warehouses.  So if they confiscate anything or order redistribution, it'll be Walmart's giant hoard long before they get around to your family-sized hoard.

For long-term emergencies, the situation is different.  They will probably impose anti-hoarding rules, and rationing, and lots of bureaucracy.  In that case, they'll probably be looking for a few photogenic hoarders to arrest, in order to "send a message" to everyone else.  Even then, though, I don't know how they'd implement it.  Probably by encouraging everyone to report suspected hoarders in their neighborhood.  Who knows?  Would they bother going after people who started hoarding before it became illegal?  Would it be worth their while to get records from the rather tiny companies who serve the prepper market?

Anyway, you have to weigh that risk vs how much you are going to limit your prepping by only buying stuff locally for cash.  If you're sure you can get what you need locally, great.  I always try to use cash just to make it harder for megacorporations to create a profile on me, and if that has the side-effect of keeping my profile safe from government eyes, even better.  But there's lots of stuff I order online too, because it's unavailable or too expensive locally.

One option to consider: your storage food doesn't all have to come from companies that specialize in selling storage food.  Your idea of buying from the health food store is a good example, but there are online options too.  My wife and I have become rather fond of Indian food, and there are lots of packaged meals and mixes plus bags of raw ingredients available from places like IShopIndian.  Even the most diligent government bureaucrat isn't going to be checking the records of IShopIndian to see who bought huge bags of rice and lentil flour.

Offline jerryc

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Re: What Do Executive Orders Say About Storing?
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2019, 11:45:23 AM »
Thanks for the information. I'm trying not to be paranoid about this, but I do see potential for risk. Somewhere I read it may be wise to live in the grey areas rather than be a vocal advocate of prepping, self defense, etc.

Offline Stwood

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Re: What Do Executive Orders Say About Storing?
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2019, 02:59:19 PM »

Good thread

Offline fritz_monroe

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Re: What Do Executive Orders Say About Storing?
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2019, 05:12:24 PM »
I know this is an old thread, but it fits my question. When I am purchasing for long term food storage needs, should it be purchased with cash, to prevent tracking by government entities?
I don't think this is what you need to worry about.  If it comes to the point where the government is tracking down people that bought food for storage, credit card receipts would not be how "they" would track you down.

If "they" are tracking you via credit cards, they would also be looking at security tapes.  Not much you can do about that.

I hate to put it this way, but step back from the ledge.  Just stick to your plan.  If your plan says to buy a bag of flour and a can of beans, then buy your bag of flour and can of beans.  Don't let paranoia get in the way of your plan.

Offline The Professor

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Re: What Do Executive Orders Say About Storing?
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2019, 04:14:39 PM »
I don't think this is what you need to worry about.  If it comes to the point where the government is tracking down people that bought food for storage, credit card receipts would not be how "they" would track you down.

If "they" are tracking you via credit cards, they would also be looking at security tapes.  Not much you can do about that.

As proof(?) of this concept consider for a moment an incident that happened about 10 years ago in Colorado.  Seems that some young idiot was out blowing up mail boxes in a rural county.  The law enforcement agency in that jurisdiction sent off a chemical sample to the Feds.  The feds came back and said "hey, this is basically the same concoction as described in the somewhat infamous original Anarchist Cookbook!"

So, the LE Agency went to the nearest major bookseller and asked to see if anyone purchased that particular tome in recent times (remember, this was back when people were still edgy about terrorists running amok).  IIRC, two had been sold.  One to a person with a credit card and another to a person with cash.  They went back, got the appropriate search warrants (after all, Islamic terrorists are well known for testing their devices on random mail boxes. . .especially those painted pink with cute noses and twisty tails).

They pulled the internal video tapes and found the person who purchased the book.  Sure enough, the dastardly fiend had worn sunglasses and a wide-brimmed hat making identification difficult.

But, have no fear, dear reader!  They were able to find the tapes for cameras covering the parking lot that corresponded to the time our young, up-and-coming explosives engineer (who was, no doubt, exceedingly proud of his World of Warcraft Screen-Name "Detonator702") leaving the store.  Luckily (for the cops, not Detonator702), the resolution of the cameras was sufficient to get a vehicle make and model and a partial Colorado Plate number.  They ran this through the records and found the culprit.

So, again, if they want to watch you, they have the infrastructure in place.


Quote
I hate to put it this way, but step back from the ledge.  Just stick to your plan.  If your plan says to buy a bag of flour and a can of beans, then buy your bag of flour and can of beans.  Don't let paranoia get in the way of your plan.

Plus, consider that buying small amounts adds up over time.  No one says you have to buy everything at once.

The Professor

Offline rustyknife

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Re: What Do Executive Orders Say About Storing?
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2019, 01:19:10 PM »
Can't remember if it was the 1st or 2nd world war that there was rationing and anti-hoarding laws. Maybe someone can add to that. Truth is that it is difficult to hide the fact that you are prepared. As an example a man I met recently was bragging about his preps saying that he had food,water and gen sets etc. After he finished I asked him if he thought that if his neighborhood was out of food,water and electricity, did he think he could hide the fresh cooked food smells or the sound of his generator running and lights on in the house? His next outburst involved the discussion of guns and ammo and what he and his family would do with them. I agree with fritz. Continue with your preps, stick to your plan. Try to remain under the radar as best you can. In the technological age we live in if the government wants to know something about you they have their ways. IMHO if you are in a situation that you could share with your neighbors, it is a personal decision you make at that moment.

Offline Stwood

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Re: What Do Executive Orders Say About Storing?
« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2019, 03:52:18 PM »
I remember my folks talking about the rationing in WWII, but don't remember ever hearing about hoarding laws.

Offline Carver

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Re: What Do Executive Orders Say About Storing?
« Reply #14 on: Yesterday at 02:41:41 PM »
From everything I've heard, in this day of pandemic shortages and panic buying, all attention concerning hoarding is directed at very obvious buyers of huge quantities of high demand goods from retail outlets and selling them on the street at multiple percentages of original cost.