Hi Point Carbines.....

[surfivor]

 I just got back from a 4 hour firearms training class ..

 One of the instructors told me a 9mm carbine would shoot more accurately than a shotgun slug at longer ranges and another student concurred ..

 I was also told I could probably get a used pump action shotgun for under $200, though I might consider a single shot 12 or 20 gauge at some point for under $100 if I could find one of those. A pump or a double barrel might be better home protection, but the single shot is cheaper and I as I said, I am not a hunter .. I think I've seen videos of how people can reload a single shot very quickly ..

 I liked the price on a hi point 9mm pistol I saw on their website for $165 as well ..

[UA8]

I don't think those are even comparable firearms.  A slug is going to transfer a huge amount of energy compared to any 9mm round.  That's like saying a rifle with shot more accurately at a longer distance than a cannon. Yeah it might but why would you be using them for the same purpose?

[surfivor]

I don't think those are even comparable firearms.  A slug is going to transfer a huge amount of energy compared to any 9mm round.  That's like saying a rifle with shot more accurately at a longer distance than a cannon. Yeah it might but why would you be using them for the same purpose?

 It's just about choosing a first gun .. RacinRob seemed to imply a slug could be fairly accurate out to 100 yards.
I don't doubt the slug has more energy, I was thinking more about accuracy.

 I thought Jack said the carbine had less effective range (9mm). 50 yards or so. The guy at the class told me more than 100 yards, but maybe he is not familiar with those even though he seems to have expertise with various guns ..

[BulkAmmo.com]

My one issue with a non magnum pistol caliber carbine is that they are really meant for automatic fire.  That's what gives the power to a pistol carbine.  I still think they have there place and I do like the Kel Tec as a backpack gun.  Granted the price is higher but you can get AR or AK pistols that will have a more power round and vs the Hi Point a similar sized package.

Now if it's all you can afford and you are unable to handle shotgun recoil.  Sure for that role it's a good choice.  I would definitely prefer a Hi Point in the hands vs a few hundred dollars in the bank.

[Capt Cook]

My one issue with a non magnum pistol caliber carbine is that they are really meant for automatic fire.  That's what gives the power to a pistol carbine.  I still think they have there place and I do like the Kel Tec as a backpack gun.  Granted the price is higher but you can get AR or AK pistols that will have a more power round and vs the Hi Point a similar sized package.

Now if it's all you can afford and you are unable to handle shotgun recoil.  Sure for that role it's a good choice.  I would definitely prefer a Hi Point in the hands vs a few hundred dollars in the bank.

The Hi-Point Carbines & the pistols are all +P rated & can handle +P+ ammunition. My 995 is accurate out to 100 yards. Beyond that I have not tested it. It is highly accurate at 50 yards even in high winds.
This was shot in high winds at 50 yards, using a bench rest, open sights, sighting and firing as fast as I could shoot.

[RacinRob]

I am not sure that I could do that from a slug gun, at least a non rifled slug gun.  A rifled slug gun doesn't do well with shot, so I never bothered with them.  We can use rifles for deer hunting so the slug gun is a driving/loaner gun.  It is hard to pick just one gun. 

I do think that a shotgun makes the best all around gun.  But I doubt anyone would go out and shoot it enough, since throwing bird shot at paper gets old quick and slugs beat you up.  If you plan on getting more guns, start with a .22.  If you are going to only have one gun, get a shotgun.

[TANK]

My suggestion is if you want one go ahead and buy it. I have one and like it. My problem is my wife, she has a mini-14, and the high point she also has a kel tec p-11 and a mosseberg 20 ga. She kinda likes the weight of the highpoint I was thinking about getting her a Glock 19 that would give her a good pistol, with p-11 as back up and the high point as a carbine all in the same cal. I just wish all of the would have the same mags.

If you want a high point carbine buy one. The cal. does't really matter all three are good cal.

[RacinRob]

Finally made it to the range:



There is about 3" spread in the three shots in the top left.  The one that is lower and to the center was because I chaged my point of aim.  I tried to guess it to the center. 

Now, about the gun and ammo.  The gun is a 870 that is old and in rough shape.  I use it for deer drives through brush. But, a $100 870 with two barrels, how can you go wrong?  The ammo was some cheap Federal slugs. 

The wierd thing is that it has a 4 power scope and is sighted for 25 yards but at 100 it shoots 4 to 5 inches high at 100.  I was also shooting off of a bench with a sand bag rest. 

[inbox485]

Whenever you sight in a scope you are essentially pointing the scope below the barrel axis. The idea is that the axis of the scope eventually intersects the flight curve of the bullet. When you sight to close range you catch the bullet early while it is still rising (relative to the scope axis). Slugs begin to drop dramatically at about 100 yards. I would re-sight it to at least 50 yards. Most of the trajectory charts use 100 yards since that spreads the rise over the bulk of the useful range and limits the rise to a couple inches.

[joeinwv]

Had a chance to shoot a HiPoint carbine this weekend in 9mm. Few observations:
- 50 flawless rounds, no failures
- Moderately accurate inside 50yds shooting freehand
- Ghost ring sites allow for fast shooting, not best for accuracy
- Forward vertical grip seems cheap, but works
- Gun does not allow for proper cheek weld, stock way too low with sites high on weapon
- Magazine is small, mag well is large. Easy to misfeed. Have to make sure it seats fully. Rapid reloads would take practice.

Fun plinking toy, easy to carry, cheap. For the price should come with 2 mags.

I am not buying one.

[surfivor]

Had a chance to shoot a HiPoint carbine this weekend in 9mm. Few observations:
- 50 flawless rounds, no failures
- Moderately accurate inside 50yds shooting freehand
- Ghost ring sites allow for fast shooting, not best for accuracy
- Forward vertical grip seems cheap, but works
- Gun does not allow for proper cheek weld, stock way too low with sites high on weapon
- Magazine is small, mag well is large. Easy to misfeed. Have to make sure it seats fully. Rapid reloads would take practice.

Fun plinking toy, easy to carry, cheap. For the price should come with 2 mags.

I am not buying one.

 Joe,

 Thanks for the input there. I'm pretty much a hack and not a serious gun enthusiast. The carbine might be something of interest to me as I am looking for something cheap, yet a bit more than a 22 .. If I ever get out there to have to hunt anything, then you can rest assured that in itself will be a sign that the economy has gone south and may not be back for a long time ..

 I'm not a strict vegetarian, but I don't eat much meat of any kind. I'm a computer programmer and very novice gardener, so having to resort to squirrels or anything else that moves would be my best bet at survival, though I hope it never comes to that and hopefully I am not too much in self denial in holding onto that hope ..

 I might also get a single shot 12 gauge, but for some reason the idea of having a 9mm carbine appeals to me .. I may also get a 9mm pistol ..

[RacinRob]

Whenever you sight in a scope you are essentially pointing the scope below the barrel axis. The idea is that the axis of the scope eventually intersects the flight curve of the bullet. When you sight to close range you catch the bullet early while it is still rising (relative to the scope axis). Slugs begin to drop dramatically at about 100 yards. I would re-sight it to at least 50 yards. Most of the trajectory charts use 100 yards since that spreads the rise over the bulk of the useful range and limits the rise to a couple inches.

The scope on the shotgun is more of an experiment.  It will be coming off before hunting next year.  The gun is for making quick 10 - 20 yard shots in dimly lit areas and a scope is not the best way to do that. 

I shot a hi point and liked it, but other than plinking, I don't see anything that it can do that one of my other choices can't do much better.  I want to get one to burn up some of the 45 ammo I have laying around. 

One note about single shot 12 ga is that they buck like a mule with anything other than light shot.

[joeinwv]

To be very plain, if what you are looking for is a means to gather small / varmint animals for protein in a SHTF situation - you will be much better served from terms of efficacy, as well as financially, by purchasing a dozen large rat traps and learning how to set and maintain snares and other traps.

Hunting is work. Traps are working while you sleep, gather firewood, etc.

[surfivor]

To be very plain, if what you are looking for is a means to gather small / varmint animals for protein in a SHTF situation - you will be much better served from terms of efficacy, as well as financially, by purchasing a dozen large rat traps and learning how to set and maintain snares and other traps.

Hunting is work. Traps are working while you sleep, gather firewood, etc.

 Well,

 A carbine can be used for self defense, it has some value for resale as well as the ammo and the lower ammo cost is good for a little target practice without alot of noise. If I had a 9mm pistol, the shells should be interchangeable ..

 If I became poor or desperate because of economic collapse and could not afford to buy a better gun, I could possibly shoot a deer with a 9mm carbine. Jack says maybe a head shot.

 I could shoot racoon, fox, coyote (for pelts), possum, head shots on squirrels, wild turkey ..

 A rat does not sound like good eating to me, but certainly not out of the question ..

 Those reasons, and that it's a cheap lightwight gun are perhaps several of the reasons that sort of add up in my head ..

 As I mentioned, I would probably get a cheap 12 gauge as well

 

 

[Scramblin]

For my SHTF planning and prepping, I took Jacks advice and picked up a Marlin 60 .22 as my first rifle.  Really fun, cheap and super reliable.  I'm accurate to 3-4 MOA with the iron sights.  I don't want to be dependent on optics in a worst case situation.

Then started to think about real hunting/stocking the freezer, and picked up a Ruger .223 and a 30-06.  Both scoped bolt guns.

My next step was to increase my arsenal to increase our defend in place plan.  I was on the fence a shot gun or a carbine.  I went with the Hi-Point 995 for a number of reasons. Here is how I thought about my particular scenario.
 
In a true SHTF I will be hooking up with my folks and my brothers family.  Neither of which are armed worth a damn, but at least they can shoot with some modicum of accuracy (because I take them out a few times a year and make them at least run a few rounds through each weapon).  Along with rifles above I also have a S&W 9mm handgun.

Since I already had .22, .223, .30-06, and 9mm ammo stocked; the commonality of the 9mm ammo was a big plus.  If I had a .45 hangun and stocked ammo I would go with the 4595, same for .40 caliber.

I picked up a 995 for $224 at Cabelas a few weeks ago. Added a 15rd mag and 250 rounds of MagTech at $0.24/rd - all for $325.

Took it to the indoor range to give it a try and see if it could hit the broad side of a barn.  At 25yrds at was VERY accurate.  Shooting 2" groups off hand.  Guessing my dad and bro should be able to hit a 20 inch circle under stress and pressure of a home defense situation; at the very least lay down some decent cover fire.

My next steps will be a shotgun, another 995, and then a true MBR.

As other have said, it's a tool for a particular job.  It will make noise and deter attackers, and has light recoil to help non shooters keep on target.

For the price and reliability, I have to say, if it fits your purpose buy one.

[Heavy G]

Scramblin':

You're describing exactly why I think there is a place for HiPoint or any other inexpensive carbine.  It's about getting a tool into your hands--and getting tools into the hands of your crew.  Low cost and ease of use--that's way more important than what guys on a forum think about the brand.

I don't own a HiPoint but would if I had gone that route.  My cheap and easy to use carbine for family members is an AK-74, which shoots the light-recoil 5.45 x 39.  I've got one and will be getting a second.  I won't divert the thread there but I wanted to make the point that I think having cheap and easy to use guns--even ones that aren't "cool" among gun enthusiasts--is a very good thing.

Guns are tools.  When you have cool ones, that's a plus.  But having one is way more important.

[inbox485]

Scramblin':

You're describing exactly why I think there is a place for HiPoint or any other inexpensive carbine.  It's about getting a tool into your hands--and getting tools into the hands of your crew.  Low cost and ease of use--that's way more important than what guys on a forum think about the brand.

I don't own a HiPoint but would if I had gone that route.  My cheap and easy to use carbine for family members is an AK-74, which shoots the light-recoil 5.45 x 39.  I've got one and will be getting a second.  I won't divert the thread there but I wanted to make the point that I think having cheap and easy to use guns--even ones that aren't "cool" among gun enthusiasts--is a very good thing.

Guns are tools.  When you have cool ones, that's a plus.  But having one is way more important.

All reviews on the carbines I've ever seen didn't knock the reliability. In fact being cluncky is about the only derogatory thing I've heard about them. So on the carbines, I'd agree with you since it is the reliability that would be most critical for a carbine. The handguns is where Hi-Points get the most bashing, and from my personal experience it is well deserved. I wouldn't hand a Hi-Point handgun to somebody and expect good results unless for some odd reason, they happened to be so well versed in malfunction clearances that they could do them in their sleep, yet didn't happen to have a handgun.

[Tarp]

I wouldn't hand a Hi-Point handgun to somebody and expect good results unless for some odd reason, they happened to be so well versed in malfunction clearances that they could do them in their sleep, yet didn't happen to have a handgun.

Do the Hi-Points malfunction a lot?  I was also planning to purchase a couple to have for added available hands if necessary, but my thinking was that the Hi-Point would work well for a less experienced shooters, is this not the case?

[cars4fun2001]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4g8m3Y_ss6M&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[inbox485]

Do the Hi-Points malfunction a lot?  I was also planning to purchase a couple to have for added available hands if necessary, but my thinking was that the Hi-Point would work well for a less experienced shooters, is this not the case?

Here is a link to one of my old sites. I'm working to merge it into the one in my signature, but for now:
https://sites.google.com/site/inbox485/Home/firearms/hi-point-c-9

The review also needs to be updated a bit. The short of it is, with the right ammo, you might get away with a C-9 but even for the money, they just aren't worth messing with. The level of reliability seems to run the spectrum. Per the manufacturer they aren't reliable until broken in (~500 rounds), and by my experience they start taking craps again around 2000. And that is if you do a lot of maintenance to get them that far. Per one particular instructor (I don't know if he wanted his affiliation published), I'm the first C-9 owner he's seen get one of these things through a 4 day class, and he's seen LOTS of them. So take the cost of a new C-9 (~$150), add the cost of the 500 rounds (~$100), and consider the flat fees paid for a transfer and you aren't too far off from options that are much better and usable out of the box. The idea that if you are poor, you can get away with buying a C-9, and a box of gold dots, and putting it in your night stand is just asking to donate it to the guy who beats you to death with it. I don't have any grudge against the brand or anything, but unlike most other reviewers you'll find out there, I actually own not just one, but two from different molds (I have one from mold A and one from mold B with serial numbers a few thousand apart), I also own the guns that hi-point fanboys claim aren't any more reliable, and I've taken actual classes with these things rather than just popping off a few rounds at the range on video and making up some insane number of rounds they think it has been through them.

Now for what I do think they are great for... I literally use mine for malfunction training. You don't have to fake the malfunctions, and you can't predict which malfunction or exactly when, but it is usually at least 2 per magazine with most 9mm ammo.

If you are thinking you might have extra friends with you that might be useful in some sort of security situation you might be better off getting some cheap pump shotguns.

[blademan]

Inbox,
  Wow man, two per magazine, I would think that means that you got a bad gun. I just wouldn't think that a company could stay in business as long as they have with that kind of product. I have heard the same thing from other sources and if you go over to the hi-point forums you will see a bunch of people ranging from mall ninjas to police chiefs that swear by hi point firearms both the pistols and carbines as personal weapons.
   I guess it probably means their quality control goes both ways. Could also mean that a large numbers of the bad reviews are caused by people not using the weapon as it was designed. Or not maintaining it well. I'm not saying this is your case. Just theorizing.
    This has been a neat thread as I am considering a carbine/pistol pair in .45 from hi-point or a tarus model 608 .357 and a cowboy gun in the same caliber from henry or marlin.
     There are pros and cons to both situations. The hi-points have price hugely in their favor. I am still unclear on the magazine compatability issue with the HP pistol carbines in .45, I've heard that there is no compatability or that it is only one way and that there is reliability issues either way. Does anyone have any usage based experience on this issue?
    There's an old addage that the best gun for any situation is the one you have when you need a gun. There are obviously places where this breaks down but it still applies.

[inbox485]

Inbox,
  Wow man, two per magazine, I would think that means that you got a bad gun. I just wouldn't think that a company could stay in business as long as they have with that kind of product. I have heard the same thing from other sources and if you go over to the hi-point forums you will see a bunch of people ranging from mall ninjas to police chiefs that swear by hi point firearms both the pistols and carbines as personal weapons.
   I guess it probably means their quality control goes both ways. Could also mean that a large numbers of the bad reviews are caused by people not using the weapon as it was designed. Or not maintaining it well. I'm not saying this is your case. Just theorizing.
    This has been a neat thread as I am considering a carbine/pistol pair in .45 from hi-point or a tarus model 608 .357 and a cowboy gun in the same caliber from henry or marlin.
     There are pros and cons to both situations. The hi-points have price hugely in their favor. I am still unclear on the magazine compatability issue with the HP pistol carbines in .45, I've heard that there is no compatability or that it is only one way and that there is reliability issues either way. Does anyone have any usage based experience on this issue?
    There's an old addage that the best gun for any situation is the one you have when you need a gun. There are obviously places where this breaks down but it still applies.

Thing with Hi-Point pistols is that a lot of owners just want to like them no matter how bad they are. First off they have a "break in" period that is just obscene by the standard of any other handgun manufacture. Anywhere from 50 to 200 rounds before the things even start to be reliable. Then, they only function with certain brands of ammo. Both of mine which come from separate assembly lines, with significantly different serial numbers will only function with ammo that has really short OAL. So you end up paying more for practice ammo since you can't just buy whatever is cheapest from Walmart. Then after about 1000 rounds, the firing pin starts to gal out the pot metal channel it rides through, and the gun goes to crap again (light strikes, bent firing pins, etc.). To be blunt, I don't believe a damn word from people that claim to have 10K rounds through a C-9. I have personal experience with them, and many witnesses to just how inexcusably crappy they are. The only thing I can say that they do well, is that when they fire, they are very accurate (unless you bumped the rear sight, and the adjustment screw striped into the pot metal slide and you shoot 10" low at 10 yards), and the ergonomics aren't as bad as they look. Other than that, you have a crap shot of them working when you need them to, they are a waste of money if you use one enough to actually be trained with it, they kick like a .45, the slide bites the crap out of your hand, the sights get bottomed out if you bump it on anything, they don't last... you get the idea.

This is one area where I just want to vomit every time Jack defends these things. They are CRAP, CRAP, CRAP. They are not cheaper in the long run, and they are CRAP. Jack is dead wrong on these things, and if he had the personal experience to back it up, he wouldn't defend them. I don't own one of the carbines, so I can't comment on them, but unless you just want one to have one or you want to see for yourself just how pathetic they are, STAY AWAY FROM HI POINT PISTOLS. I own two of them. I'm not a "gun snob" as some people claim I must be since I think they are trash. I bought two. My wife and I have trained extensively with them. They are both permanently shelved. I got an XD45, my wife got an M&P40. I've been there, and no budget could justify getting a hi-point instead of something else. If somebody NEEDS "something" for home defense, the price of a hi-point could get you a used pump shotgun that will be better in every conceivable way. If somebody NEEDS "something" for CCW, Hi-Point isn't it for all the reasons I've mentioned and more. The only thing a Hi Point is really good for (and I'm being serious here) is malfunction training. I've met nobody that can clear type 2 and 3 malfunctions on a handgun like I can, I can thank my Hi-Point for that.

[Rock Deer]

http://www.gun-tests.com/issues/18_5/features/5330-1.html

May 2006
Low-Cost 9mms: Hi-Point’s C9 Vs. Bersa’s 18-Shot Thunder 9
 
We really liked the High-Capacity Bersa, but we couldn’t fault the Hi-Point for being anything but ugly. Fed a variety of ammo, the C9 kept on ticking, and it saves you money in the bargain.

[trav]

I bought a 995ts for around $200 and slapped on a $30 red dot from Walmart. After one range trip to sight it in, I took second place overall in a steel challenge match with it. I'm not great with a rifle, but it was fast on target and ran smoothly. I am happy with the purchase.

[inbox485]

http://www.gun-tests.com/issues/18_5/features/5330-1.html

May 2006
Low-Cost 9mms: Hi-Point’s C9 Vs. Bersa’s 18-Shot Thunder 9
 
We really liked the High-Capacity Bersa, but we couldn’t fault the Hi-Point for being anything but ugly. Fed a variety of ammo, the C9 kept on ticking, and it saves you money in the bargain.

I remember that article. It was one of the ones that resulted in me buying hi-points despite hordes of so called gun snobs advising against it. If you read my previous comments, you can guess where I'm going with this.

If I took a new C-9, broke it in at the factory (with rising ammo costs, you will soon spend more breaking in a C-9 then a new C-9 is worth), polished the internals, and made sure the magazine feed lips were adjusted just right, you could use it in a review for and be none the wiser. You are looking at 100 - 500 rounds just to break it in. Ammo isn't getting any cheaper. Then assuming you have the skill and knowledge, you can polish the internals and adjust the magazines to dimensions that vary by opinion that the factory couldn't produce directly to save their lives. Then maybe you got lucky and it won't be ammo picky, or like me and everybody else I've met, it will still have issues with certain common brands. Then you get to guess how many rounds it will survive for before crapping out again. Tally that up if you want to figure out what the "savings" are. Find a single review from any reputable source involving use beyond a box or two of ammo that recommends these things.

[blademan]

I know that this thread is about the carbines, but I wanted to reference two different reviews abot the SAME exact Hi Point 9mm pistol. In other words, two different people reviewed the same physical pistol. The same one.
The dumb
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/05/benjamin-t-shotzberger/gun-review-hi-point-c9-9mm-pistol/
 The smart
http://Http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/11/daniel-zimmerman/counterpoint-kevin-smith-reviews-the-hi-point-c-9/
 Read the comments for both articles.

The thing is, HP is a budget brand of firearm, its not a Kimber.
I don't see what a 10O-500 break in period is so bad. I mean I know ammo is getting high, but if you're going to depend on ANY firearm, you should be using it and practicing with it often. 500 rnds isn't that big a deal in IMO, that's just a marginal base line to establish that if some problem exists, where it is. Ammo, shooter, magazine, gun.  I simply do not believe that a company that operates and a margin as thin as HP's obviously is when you look at their MSRP, makes something that simply doesn't work and is only useful for showing people how to clear malfunctions.
  I'm not trying to pick on you or start a fight here Inbox. Really. I'm not. I simply have a grasp of business and the fact that people won't buy them for very long if they don't work. You can go see videos on the tube that show these hand guns working pretty well despite somethings being done to them that one would never do to something like a Kimber.
I mean you have two of how many that have been made? Have you sent them back, heck even GLOCK makes mistakes, and a faulty piece gets through. I understand wanting complete, no failgod like reliabilty out of a gun, believe me I do, I just realize that at $150, I may have to help it a little and pehaps get to know my weapon before I call it a piece of crap.
   I'm not trying to poke at you or start a fight Inbox, I just don't think your experience with two of however many of them are made is enough to write the brand off as crap.
   I mean, if you want a gun that will fire sub 1" groups at 100 yds out of the box and never jam, and do it 100 years from now, hi point isn't for you.
   If you are looking for something that WILL shoot. And IS accurate. And WILL kill someone if you throw it at them. And WILL require you to get to know your pistol and maybe even how to work on it a little. And DOES have the best warranty ever in the world.
And WILL survive a drop off a balcony, or down some stairs.
  And WILL get you made fun of at the range, at least til you show em your paper. And IS LESS than $200 new in box so you CAN afford to shoot it. Well if all that sounds good, maybe, just maybe you might give Hi Point a try. It WONT win beauty pagents! But it IS a GUN.
I'm NOT saying they are the best guns, or the worst guns. I just thing that two samples is poor statistics for the conclusion that they are crap. Again, I'm challenging your conclsion, you your personally Inbox. Its just a little confusing to me to hear such a spread of good or bad with not much in the middle.

[inbox485]

I know that this thread is about the carbines, but I wanted to reference two different reviews abot the SAME exact Hi Point 9mm pistol. In other words, two different people reviewed the same physical pistol. The same one.
The dumb
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/05/benjamin-t-shotzberger/gun-review-hi-point-c9-9mm-pistol/
 The smart
http://Http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/11/daniel-zimmerman/counterpoint-kevin-smith-reviews-the-hi-point-c-9/
 Read the comments for both articles.

I just want to preference everything by saying that this is coming from somebody who wanted to like his C-9, did all the tricks in the book that supposedly fix C-9's, and went out and trained with a C-9. Not some 50 rounds first shots afternoon type training, but the 800 round 4 day course type. My C-9 almost survived the course flawlessly. It had a couple hickups and I learned the hard way why adjustable sights on a pot metal slide is a horrible idea. True to Murphy's law, the worst of the issues was a double feed coming around a corner in a shoot house, and drilling a hostage in the shoulder on account of the sight being bottomed out (not an adjustment that I made, and quite possibly what happened in the snarky review above).

The thing is, HP is a budget brand of firearm, its not a Kimber.
I don't see what a 10O-500 break in period is so bad. I mean I know ammo is getting high, but if you're going to depend on ANY firearm, you should be using it and practicing with it often. 500 rnds isn't that big a deal in IMO, that's just a marginal base line to establish that if some problem exists, where it is. Ammo, shooter, magazine, gun.  I simply do not believe that a company that operates and a margin as thin as HP's obviously is when you look at their MSRP, makes something that simply doesn't work and is only useful for showing people how to clear malfunctions.

I'm not talking about kimbers when I say this (because frankly for all they are known for, perfect reliability isn't one of them), but any reputable personal defense type handgun will function flawlessly out of the box unless it is defective. Pick any of the XD/Glock/M&P/H&K/FN/Berretta/Wather/S&W/etc. guns, and they will not have a "break in" period where it is expected that they will suck and fail left and right. That isn't normal, and if you take the cost of a C-9 plus the cost of the "break in" ammo, you are entering the lower end of the "no break in needed" market.

But even that isn't why I completely wrote off C-9's as functional defense tools. After that break in they seem to work pretty well, but then they don't last (again guessing here, but I think the first review broke the gun in, and the second got most of the useful phase that gun will ever see). You are right that 500 rounds shouldn't be a big deal. Twice that is a good week of training. But with a high point, 500 rounds doesn't establish reliability. It actually just wears it to the point of being close to beginning to fail. That is why I don't think a C-9 should ever be considered a defensive tool.

  I'm not trying to pick on you or start a fight here Inbox. Really. I'm not. I simply have a grasp of business and the fact that people won't buy them for very long if they don't work. You can go see videos on the tube that show these hand guns working pretty well despite somethings being done to them that one would never do to something like a Kimber.

Really? With all the hi-point fanboys swearing they have put 10k-15k rounds through their C-9, and being the gun that costs about half of the next price tag up, you couldn't see how a worthless gun could keep selling despite being horribly flawed? Not fighting with you either, but nothing up to and including cases of catastrophic slide failure has swayed the general public from buying the gun that happens to have the cheapest price tag by a long shot.

I mean you have two of how many that have been made? Have you sent them back, heck even GLOCK makes mistakes, and a faulty piece gets through. I understand wanting complete, no failgod like reliabilty out of a gun, believe me I do, I just realize that at $150, I may have to help it a little and pehaps get to know my weapon before I call it a piece of crap.

I really don't think you understand how well I know these guns. And no, I haven't sent them back. There is no "defect" to them. They are worn out. Replacements would wear out the exact same way. The cost of returns and transfer fees would almost be as much as the gun itself. At $150, it is a waste of $150 that could have been half of an infinitely better gun, or ammo to train with. Anybody that wants to mess with a C-9 is welcome to, and won't be out much, but the people that "can only afford that much" are wasting it just as people do buying the cheapest electrical cord or hose before replacing it with something better.

 

  I'm not trying to poke at you or start a fight Inbox, I just don't think your experience with two of however many of them are made is enough to write the brand off as crap.

I have two with different slide stamps with serials far enough apart that I doubt they share much in common lot wise. They have both been through a fair break in period followed by 800+ round training courses. I have experience with different brands of guns. Just how much experience should I need to write the model (I can't comment on the brand as a whole so I don't) off as a gun not suitable for defense? I get that you aren't picking a fight, and neither am I. I'm being serious here. What am I missing that people feel the need to defend the most worthless gun being marketed as a defense tool? I mean, I've seen episodes of COPS where cops had a gun pointed at them, it jammed, and turned out to be a C-9! The only person I'd want to have a C-9 rather than any other gun would be somebody down range. It is both my observation and experience that using a C-9 for anything other than a range toy is turning your back on Mrs Murphy and hoping she won't kick you in the balls.

    I mean, if you want a gun that will fire sub 1" groups at 100 yds out of the box and never jam, and do it 100 years from now, hi point isn't for you.
   If you are looking for something that WILL shoot. And IS accurate. And WILL kill someone if you throw it at them. And WILL require you to get to know your pistol and maybe even how to work on it a little. And DOES have the best warranty ever in the world.
And WILL survive a drop off a balcony, or down some stairs.
  And WILL get you made fun of at the range, at least til you show em your paper. And IS LESS than $200 new in box so you CAN afford to shoot it. Well if all that sounds good, maybe, just maybe you might give Hi Point a try. It WONT win beauty pagents! But it IS a GUN.

Plenty of manufactures have similar warranties. Difference is they rarely need them, and aren't so cheap that shipping and returning is more expensive that the product. The critical part, is all those "WILL"'s you mentioned are actually "MIGHT"'s. If anybody still wants a C-9 tell you what. I can sell two for real cheap. Buyer pays shipping and transfer fees.

I'm NOT saying they are the best guns, or the worst guns. I just thing that two samples is poor statistics for the conclusion that they are crap. Again, I'm challenging your conclsion, you your personally Inbox. Its just a little confusing to me to hear such a spread of good or bad with not much in the middle.

If more than two guns with no "defect" from different lots displaying the exact same wear patterns and failure points isn't enough statistics, those stats will have to come from elsewhere. I just hope nobody I care about (which includes my fellow TSP'ers or I wouldn't take the time to write this) relies on one to defend their life. They deserve better.

[blademan]

I meant to respond to this soone, but got distracted while I was formulating my response, and forgot.
    Inbox, its cool man, I understand and am not offended, I just didn't want to come off sounding like an ass or a fanboy (every brand has em and they are all annoying), as I have not owned a c9. I have seen them put to a lot of tests and survive and function throught things that would have caused other guns to jam. I have also seen them jam. And fail to work in other ways. I have my opinion as to wether some the failures I have seen were due to the weapon or the operator, or the ammo, (some guns don't do well with some ammo, even really nice guns) but that is really beside the point. 
 You are basing your advice and your own actions off your own experience and I can not fault your for that. Well argued sir. I would like to mark this part of the discussion as dead and let the thread get back to the original purpose which was carbines. I think. Yeah, Hi-point carbines. Anyonther comments?