Author Topic: Evil Pellets  (Read 35708 times)

AC

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Evil Pellets
« on: January 18, 2010, 06:19:57 PM »
OK I want to see what people think of this idea....

Mods: If talking about this is against the TOS just remove this post, thanks.

OK - I want to try removing the bullets from some .22 ammo, that's right, rimfire, empty out the powder, and put a .22 pellet in there. Then shoot out of a .22 firearm.

Desired result: A decent, 700-900 FPS .22 pellet weapon without a ton of pumping or CO2 cartridges required.

Anyone have any experience with this? I worry about removing the bullet and having the round go off, kinda like having a firecracker go off in your hand, some potential for injury and would not be fun.

Weigh in folks, am I a doofus? Should I just look for a CO2 powered gun and leave it at that?

Offline TwoBluesMama

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Re: Evil Pellets
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2010, 06:51:17 PM »
OK I want to see what people think of this idea....

Mods: If talking about this is against the TOS just remove this post, thanks.

OK - I want to try removing the bullets from some .22 ammo, that's right, rimfire, empty out the powder, and put a .22 pellet in there. Then shoot out of a .22 firearm.

Desired result: A decent, 700-900 FPS .22 pellet weapon without a ton of pumping or CO2 cartridges required.

Anyone have any experience with this? I worry about removing the bullet and having the round go off, kinda like having a firecracker go off in your hand, some potential for injury and would not be fun.

Weigh in folks, am I a doofus? Should I just look for a CO2 powered gun and leave it at that?

AC - There is a manufacturer by the name of Aguila who produces .22 RF bullets called Colibri (500 fps).  These are also fairly quiet.  Available through Cabela's and other catalog reloading suppliers (Natchez). Hope this helps.

Offline idelphic

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Re: Evil Pellets
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2010, 07:17:18 PM »
What TBM said,.. It's safer and easier...

I've seen people alter .22s before,.. but I can't say it's wise to try to remove the bullet and they try to re-insert it.

AC

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Re: Evil Pellets
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2010, 08:43:50 PM »
Thanks you guys are great!

OK the reason I want to use pellets is, they're so light that they lose velocity relatively quickly, which makes them a lot safer - shoot at a critter in a tree and miss, the pellet goes up, the pellet goes down, goes "dink" on something if anyone even notices, and that's that. A .22, I read, after traveling 350 yards, will still have a speed of about 500 feet per second, enough to make it damaging/lethal.

However, I just was looking around on the net and found a reference to an article (article has been disappeared) on a site called Stupid Evil Bastard (keep in mind now, a bastard is a kind of file) about a guy who set up a .22 round on a picnic table and shot it with a BB gun and the shell exploded and went in his groin. Ouch.

Thus, I am probably a doofus if I try this crazy plan.

I've seen the "colibri" rounds, I don't think I can get 'em in California. They are indeed like a pellet gun, in fact the gun/pawn shop owner shot one into a telephone book (yellow pages) to show me how they do, I think it made it to T. And pretty quietly.

OK so now my other stupid plan is, I wonder if I can get the mildest kind of .22 blanks for nail guns, which is brass shell and grey color code, and put a pellet in the gun then one of those and shoot it? This might be kinda cool because the .22 blanks may be nice and cheap and I won't waste good .22 ammo.

Anything, anything, I tells ya, rather than just go out and get a friggin' Crosman pump up pistol (I'm interested in pistol potential with all of this because birds and neighbors know what a rifle looks like, a pistol is more stealthy.

AC

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Re: Evil Pellets
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2010, 11:18:38 PM »
OK a friend of mine said he used to empty out .22 rounds all the time, so I wiggled one apart, and emptied the powder out .... ok .... so, the first problem that comes to mind is, a .22 bullet is secured by a crimp, so the crimp is still there and I can't just stick the pellet in. So, no problem I thought, I'll just put the pellet into the gun then the primed brass and shoot it. Well, I did this out of a Ruger Mk II pistol and it sounds like an air gun, it's pretty cool actually, but a real PITA to do all this to effectively have an air gun, wasting a nice .22 round for each shot, so it's an interesting idea but .... Meh.

File and forget ..... maybe someday on some secret mission I'll need to use this elite skill.  :D

Offline RipTombstone

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Re: Evil Pellets
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2010, 03:02:27 PM »
I actually have quite a bit of experience with the Aguila Colibri rounds. I work for the city, and on occasion end up having to dispatch critters in town, with no noise of course.

These rounds have a very light bullet, no powder, and are great for up close and personal dispatch of a skunk. The guy standing next to me kept waiting for me to shoot, after I had already put 2 rounds into the skunks head at 3ft away. He never heard anything other than me pumping the rifle. In my .22 auto pistol, they are a bit louder, as the action opens up just a hair when it goes off. I did a whole family of skunks this way over a week long period, and nobody heard a thing.
I use them in my garage now for a bit of fun practice shooting at my foam archery target.

They are not supposed to be used in a rifle, but I use them in my old Rossi pump with no problems. I have a different rifle that they wont exit the barrel in, so beware of this.

On the topic of shooting .22 shells with a bb gun.... I used to have a very long linked belt of .308 blanks. We would take them off, and shoot the primers with the bb gun. That is until one of the primers went wizzing by our heads and hit the house really hard. That was enough of that...
RipT

AC

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Re: Evil Pellets
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2010, 07:46:27 PM »
Putting the pellet and then the primed .22 brass into the Ruger is kind of a pain, but I might try taking a few more apart tonight then try 'em for grouping tomorrow, guess I'll stick a paper with a mark onto a traffic cone we have around here. It just goes Clink! when it fires this way, tomorrow I can shoot a longer distance which will give me an idea of velocity ("kinda slow, pretty darned fast, etc") plus some idea of grouping.

I'm ambivalent. I'm also bored. It may be a useful thing to know how to do once in a while and I already own the Ruger. I'm considering buying a Benjamin pump up pistol, which would not be a direct competitor for ammo with .22 weapons, but then if it's something I only do a little bit of, pistol shooting of critters, it may make sense to just stock up on .22s which I'm doing anyway. I was a doofus and got 500 rounds of mini-mags that are not hollowpoints, too bad I can't read labels huh?

But I'm a toy nut anyway so I should end up with a pellet pistol anyway heh heh.


Offline RipTombstone

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Re: Evil Pellets
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2010, 08:03:59 PM »
Just make sure that the pellet is all the way to the rear of your barrel, or you may ring your barrel, as it may act as on obstruction. Doubtful, but always possible.
RipT

AC

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Re: Evil Pellets
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2010, 10:49:37 PM »
I"ll keep an eye on the state of the chamber, throat, etc., for any unusual fouling.

AC

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Re: Evil Pellets
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2010, 10:22:13 PM »
OK update time.

Let's see ..... I need to pull 5-10 more .22s apart to try that system, and get some idea of accuracy. I'll have a rifle to use in a few more days.

I also got a box of 100 Winchester blanks for blank powered tools, grey color code, the wimpiest ones they make. They were about $8 though so ..... not a screamin' deal. I want to try these in the pistol but first I want to try 'em in the rifle because I don't want anything loud - don't want to disturb the neighbors or the geese. So, I'm gonna hold off on it until I have that nice long quiet barrel to put one through - PLUS I'm getting a rifle cleaning rod because I don't want to create a problem I can't push out!

In case I didn't mention it, the primed .22 with a pellet in the pistol is uber quiet. Need to test those for point of impact and grouping.

Offline Mr. Blank

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Re: Evil Pellets
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2010, 11:02:20 PM »
Save yourself the work and get some .22 CB caps.

Purchase LINK.

Offline GunslingR

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Re: Evil Pellets
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2010, 11:03:32 PM »
Save yourself the work and get some .22 CB caps.

Purchase LINK.

You beat me to it. I was just about to suggest the same!

Offline Mr. Blank

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Re: Evil Pellets
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2010, 11:08:36 PM »
I'm like a ninja man!   ;D

Offline GunslingR

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Re: Evil Pellets
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2010, 11:10:19 PM »

AC

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Re: Evil Pellets
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2010, 12:06:21 AM »
I have some and I'll get more if I get the chance.

The reason for the pellet thing is, I may have mentioned this before, a pellet has a low enough weight that it will lose its initial velocity fairly quickly so it won't be dangerous at a distance. I have no problem at all shooting squirrels with a pellet in the trees out front, if I miss the pellet will be harmless when it comes down A .22 bullet, even the lighter one in a CB, could break a window or something, do something annoying. Land on a car and go DINK! and get someone's attention.

Maybe I should be an airgunsmith.

Offline texasmufflerman

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Re: Evil Pellets
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2010, 01:21:51 AM »
I have to agree with TBM, et al  regarding using the colibri (375 fps) or newer super colibri (500 fps).

I believe 22 pellets weigh around 15 gr.  The colibri is not much more -- 20 gr.

I am curious about the accuracy of the pellets vs. colibri, and also accuracy of pellet in air rifle vs pellet in rimfire rifle.

AC

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Re: Evil Pellets
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2010, 01:27:53 PM »
And the Colibri are neat, but I want to essentially end up with .... being able to use your .22 rimfire as a .22 pellet rifle/pistol. The PPP (primer powered pellet) is interesting because it's so dang quiet but came out of the barrel of the pistol with authority.

AC

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Re: Evil Pellets
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2010, 12:23:24 AM »
OK time for an update:

Put a .22 Winchester blank made for powering tools, color code grey with brass case, the wimpiest made, into the 7" barrel pistol. Pap! Pretty loud. OK, let's try this with a pellet in front - POW! Hmm, that's too dang loud!

OK let's go back to the primer powered pellet trials .... dang these .22's are just plain hard to pry apart without kinda boogering up the brass, don't want that. So that's kinda on hold.

So, Tuesday I pick up a bolt action .22 rifle with a nice long barrel, I can try the Winchester blank + .22 pellet idea in that. I need to see if some other types of .22s are easier to pry apart but frankly, I'd be better served by just shelling out the money for a pellet pistol.

Engaged in some classic displacement activity by messing around with the Crosman 1077 repeating CO2 rifle I got months ago and hadn't even done anything with. Not highly accurate, but pretty decent. And I didn't get it for accuracy, I got it for night-time shooting of annoying critters up close, with a flashlight held alongside. Going after raccoons at 2AM with a scoped break-barrel is just comical.

I'll have more updates on Wednesday or so.

Offline Steve Cover

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Re: Evil Pellets
« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2010, 11:43:10 PM »
Stay with loaded CB and sub velocity factory loads in a 22 Rimfire.

I seriously doubt the rimfire primer would drive a pellet well.

However, I do have extensive experience in driving pellets using primers in centerfire rifles & handguns.



25 Cal pellet powered by 209 Shotgun Primer in a 257 Roberts.



Several Adapters and modified cases for 22 Pellets in the 223 Remington.

Note far left adapter uses Large Rifle Primers.... All others use 209 Shotgun Primers.



22 Pellet / 22 Hornet adapter.... Uses Large Rifle Primers



Adapter for shooting 177 Pellets in 44 Magnum... Uses Large Rifle Primers



Adapter Kit for shooting 177 Pellets in 45ACP.... Large Rifle Primers.




Adapter Kit for shooting 177 Pellets in 9MM handguns.

Can I answer any questions??

Steve

Offline RipTombstone

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Re: Evil Pellets
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2010, 07:17:42 AM »
Nice setup Steve! I have seen those convert a pells before for SAA Colts, and really thought about getting one. Kind of forgot about them tho.
Thanks for the memory refresher!
DM

AC

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Re: Evil Pellets
« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2010, 01:48:42 PM »
Those Convert-A-Pell kits are cool. I've known about them, they're kinda beyond my budget though. Even if they're only $20-odd they're beyond my budget, and I'm becoming VERY VERY paranoid about ordering anything through the mail.

One of those for .223 in a Thompson Contender would be cool.

Offline Steve Cover

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Re: Evil Pellets
« Reply #21 on: January 28, 2010, 04:24:29 PM »
Those Convert-A-Pell kits are cool. I've known about them, they're kinda beyond my budget though. Even if they're only $20-odd they're beyond my budget, and I'm becoming VERY VERY paranoid about ordering anything through the mail.

One of those for .223 in a Thompson Contender would be cool.

The 223 is easy enough to make.

Drill out the flash hole to about double size, center punch a couple of dimples in the neck to shoulder joint (to keep pellets from being pressed in too far) load pellet, chamber & shoot.

This will give about 500-600 FPS out of a 20" barrel.

Also, ammosmith.com has a video on using the Lee primer pocket cleaner to enlarge the primer pocket from small rifle, to large rifle on a 223 case. 
This allows a Large rifle magnum primer to be used.
You might want to check that out.

If you can find a spot facer to match the outside rim of a shotgun primer, you can modify the 223 cast to accept 209 Shotgun Primers for power.

Just spot face the head deep enough to accommodate the rim, and drill out the primer hole to accept a 209 primer. 
I also use a deburring tool to bevel the sharp edge of the hole a little.
If done right, primers can be seated with thumb pressure, and punched out after firing with a length of cleaning rod.
To deprime, put the case on a couple of washers large enough for the spent primer to pass through.

These will be much more powerful than a small rifle primer driven pellet.

I've found it helps to smear bullet lube in the front of the case after the pellet is seated when using shotgun primers.

Being too cheap to waste my commercial bullet lube for this, I made my own out of candle wax and bee's wax. 
I don't remember the formula, but its about the consistency of peanut butter.

Also, all primers leave a gritty residue in the bore.  Always run a couple of patches through the barrel before going back to live ammunition.

Steve

Offline Steve Cover

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Re: Evil Pellets
« Reply #22 on: January 28, 2010, 04:35:35 PM »
Nice setup Steve! I have seen those convert a pells before for SAA Colts, and really thought about getting one. Kind of forgot about them tho.
Thanks for the memory refresher!
DM
The Convert-A-Pell units are a lot of fun.

I shoot into a 22LR Bullet Trap set on a shelf across my pool table.

While they are not overly accurate, (the barrel inserts are held in place by rubber "O" rings) they do shoot well enough to show any flaws in my technique.

Those used in my semi-autos are also used for Jam clearing practice.   Since I have to recycle the action manually for each shot anyway, I go through the "Tap Rack" drill every time.

I've got it down to a reflex now.

Steve

AC

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Re: Evil Pellets
« Reply #23 on: January 28, 2010, 07:25:27 PM »
Very very cool stuff.

OK so I took my shiny new rifle, put a pellet in then one of my blanks from the hardware store, aimed at a piece of goose poop out the door (pointing down into the grass) and fired. I expected it to be quiet because of the long rifle barrel. It was not. It was almost as loud as the pistol had been. I'm not doing that any more. I think I actually missed the goose poop too.

Hmm.

Offline Steve Cover

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Re: Evil Pellets
« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2010, 10:58:11 AM »
Very very cool stuff.

OK so I took my shiny new rifle, put a pellet in then one of my blanks from the hardware store, aimed at a piece of goose poop out the door (pointing down into the grass) and fired. I expected it to be quiet because of the long rifle barrel. It was not. It was almost as loud as the pistol had been. I'm not doing that any more. I think I actually missed the goose poop too.

Hmm.
I believe that the blank was way too powerful for the pellet. A distorted pellet driven too hard to catch the rifling with its thin skirt will be useless.
A CB cap would be much more to your liking.

Primer only fired pellets are on the very low end of the power spectrum and produce CB scale ballistics out of larger cased centerfire rifles.
Naturally, there are adapters for 22 Rimfires in centerfires too.



22 Long Rifle in 22 Hornet (TC Contender with movable firing pin only)




22 Long Rifle in 223 Rem.  (22 CB Caps with full power Long Rifle Ammunition)
Note that adapter on the left is TC Contender Only, while the one on the right has an offset firing pin insert for use in my centerfire rifles.




22 WMR in a 22-250... Better look at the offset firing pin adapter.


These adapter make the centerfire 22s capable of shooting much smaller quieter rimfire ammunition. 
As such they produce a report as loud as a 22 rimfire rifle.
If lower sound signature small game harvesting is desired, CB Caps can be used.
To replicate pellet gun report, An adapter allowing the use of a 22 Pellet powered only by a primer, produces pellet gun like performance and sounds like a cap gun.

Dealing strictly in the world of 22 rimfire firearms, use CB Caps, and stay away from trying to use pellets.  This is just reinventing the CB Cap wheel.

Steve





AC

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Re: Evil Pellets
« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2010, 02:05:10 PM »


Dealing strictly in the world of 22 rimfire firearms, use CB Caps, and stay away from trying to use pellets.  This is just reinventing the CB Cap wheel.

Steve






Yeah .... looks like this whole thing has been an exercise in idiocy. ;D

I don't think there's a better thread on this subject now, anywhere. I've looked.

Offline Steve Cover

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Re: Evil Pellets
« Reply #26 on: January 29, 2010, 08:13:28 PM »
<<<Yeah .... looks like this whole thing has been an exercise in idiocy. ;D>>>
Quote

Not so Amigo.

It was well worth exploring.....

You never know unless you look into an idea.

There were alternative routs to the same goal that you didn't consider.

This happens to me all the time.....  Very educational.  If I didn't ask, I would never know.

Take Care,

Steve


Offline RipTombstone

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Re: Evil Pellets
« Reply #27 on: January 29, 2010, 10:55:23 PM »
Any time you learn something, its worth the time. It MAY have went the other way, and worked.

If someone is willing to take the time to try something different from the norm, its well worth our time to look at the option, and see if it will work.
RipT

AC

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Re: Evil Pellets
« Reply #28 on: January 30, 2010, 08:01:18 PM »
Thanks you guys are great.

Frankly, my main peeve right now is, those dang .22s are too dang hard to pull apart, firing pellets out of my pistol is kinda cool and if it wern't such a PITA I'd try for some idea of grouping with those. Very very quiet and kinda neat.

But, probably the $50-odd for a Crosman 1377 would be a better idea than pulling apart any more 22s, except that I want and bought 500 of 'em that are solid point, well, they are still 22s.

Offline Docwatmo

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Re: Evil Pellets
« Reply #29 on: February 01, 2010, 11:58:30 AM »
I have to agree, I've learned far more from some of my failures than I have from the successes. 

Doc