Author Topic: Not using Reloads for home defense  (Read 13433 times)

Offline liftsboxes

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Re: Not using Reloads for home defense
« Reply #30 on: December 09, 2009, 05:29:23 PM »

I'd love to see a pistol with a 17 Bullet Clip. I've never see a pistol that only holds the bullets, no case, And in a clip no less. Would love to see the schematics on that little beauty. ;D

longrifle



I share your frustration about the way the reporter described her G17.  It's a big part of my point, people who know nothing screaming loudly in alarm ... yeah, that usually turns out well.

Offline Duc1

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Re: Not using Reloads for home defense
« Reply #31 on: December 19, 2009, 11:02:02 PM »
It seems like people get sued for everything, but since it's just as easy to use factory loads I do, but if all I had were reloads I would use them if needed.  I'd rather take my chances in the court room than fail my family. 

Offline onesureshot

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Re: Not using Reloads for home defense
« Reply #32 on: December 21, 2009, 08:01:27 AM »
Like it's been stated (and I'll reword), after a justified shooting, the "overzealous" DA has to show intent to kill. Reloads provide the DA one more avenue to prove "intent". If you use an ammo "because my CCW instructor recommended it", or "That's what my cop buddies recommend", the DA hits a dead end on YOUR intent.

While the reload vs factory debate will continue, I can see just the opposite being pulled into play too:

Defendant: "I used the same ammo my local PD uses, it's what my CCW instructor recommended"

Attorney: "So you felt it best to use police type ammo? Are you a police officer? Why would a civilian need to use police ammo?"

I think no matter what you use, they are going to do everything to make you look like the bad guy. All it would take is one lawyer, or paralegal to do a quick google search and they would find the results of many, many posts of this nature and see the trend in using factory ammo to avoid the "You reload killer bullets?" arguement, and they will turn the tables and use the "You use POLICE bullets?" against you.

Bottom line, Be damn sure you know what you are doing before sending lead. It had better be a legit shoot or they will find a way to turn you into the bad guy regardless of the ammo being used.

Offline donaldj

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Re: Not using Reloads for home defense
« Reply #33 on: December 21, 2009, 03:05:54 PM »
While the reload vs factory debate will continue, I can see just the opposite being pulled into play too:

Defendant: "I used the same ammo my local PD uses, it's what my CCW instructor recommended"

Attorney: "So you felt it best to use police type ammo? Are you a police officer? Why would a civilian need to use police ammo?"

I think no matter what you use, they are going to do everything to make you look like the bad guy. All it would take is one lawyer, or paralegal to do a quick google search and they would find the results of many, many posts of this nature and see the trend in using factory ammo to avoid the "You reload killer bullets?" arguement, and they will turn the tables and use the "You use POLICE bullets?" against you.

Bottom line, Be damn sure you know what you are doing before sending lead. It had better be a legit shoot or they will find a way to turn you into the bad guy regardless of the ammo being used.

I agree an overzealous DA will use whatever means necessary.

I disagree that factory loads will bring as much an avenue to prosecute by. In reloading, you will be tried on every single facet of the cartridge. From the bullet you choose, to how much propellant you use. Going and buying a box because you were instructed to "by an expert" shuts down a lot of liability on your part that reloading does not.

If you don't see that, sorry.


Offline Serellan

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Re: Not using Reloads for home defense
« Reply #34 on: December 21, 2009, 03:44:42 PM »
I agree an overzealous DA will use whatever means necessary.

I disagree that factory loads will bring as much an avenue to prosecute by. In reloading, you will be tried on every single facet of the cartridge. From the bullet you choose, to how much propellant you use. Going and buying a box because you were instructed to "by an expert" shuts down a lot of liability on your part that reloading does not.

If you don't see that, sorry.



This is not just about an overzelous prosecutor.  Again, consider this case:

Quote
Situation: Authorities try to determine if a death was suicide, blameless accident, manslaughter, or murder by replicating gunshot residue.

Lessons: Load easily replicable factory rounds in your defense guns ... and don't leave firearms where suicidal people can access them.

May, 1990. I hang up the telephone and lean back in the chair in my office and utter the words, "Damn it!"

John Lanza, the attorney defending a young man against a charge of Murder, has just told me, "The state will contend that a different load with a different powder charge was used than what we determined from the defendant's reloading notes was likely to have been in the gun at the time the fatal shot was fired."
More Articles of Interest

It's important. It's very important. The difference is whether it's Murder as charged, or a man trying to pull the gun out of the hand of a woman he loves as she tries to commit suicide ... and tragically, failing to stop her.

The bullet that tore through Lise Bias' brain and killed her almost instantly had been fired from a Smith & Wesson Model 686, a heavy-duty stainless steel target-grade service revolver which, in this case, had a 6" barrel. The rifling marks conclusively showed the death bullet had been fired from this particular firearm, serial number AFH3446. Both prosecution and defense would stipulate this was the death weapon.

The problem was that the prosecution thought it was a murder weapon.

-------------------------------

"When a hand load is used in an incident which becomes the subject of a civil or criminal trial, the duplication of that hand load poses a significant problem for both the plaintiff" or the prosecutor and the defendant. Once used, there is no way, with certainty, to determine the amount of powder or propellant used for that load. This becomes significant when forensic testing is used in an effort to duplicate the shot and the resulting evidence on the victim or target. Stippling or powder residue, and its amount, would relate to the distance between the barrel of the firearm and the victim or target. Lack of powder residue would reflect a distant shot as opposed to the presence of powder residue which would reflect or prove a close shot," explains Attorney Lanza, who adds, "With the commercial load, one would be in a better position to argue the uniformity between the loads used for testing and the subject load."

Article is too long to repost here, but READ IT!

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_181_30/ai_n26806104/
« Last Edit: December 21, 2009, 03:52:55 PM by Serellan »

Offline donaldj

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Re: Not using Reloads for home defense
« Reply #35 on: December 21, 2009, 05:50:36 PM »
This is not just about an overzelous prosecutor.  Again, consider this case:

Article is too long to repost here, but READ IT!

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_181_30/ai_n26806104/


Serellan, I totally agree with you in that there are a plethora or reasons to use factory loads with known loads, ballistics, components, burn patterns. In my post above I was just attempting to emphasize why an overzealous DA has more avenues of prosecution in handloads than he does in factory loads. This does not take away any of the other very sound reasons to use defense-intent factory loads in defense guns.

Offline Serellan

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Re: Not using Reloads for home defense
« Reply #36 on: December 21, 2009, 06:46:11 PM »

Serellan, I totally agree with you in that there are a plethora or reasons to use factory loads with known loads, ballistics, components, burn patterns. In my post above I was just attempting to emphasize why an overzealous DA has more avenues of prosecution in handloads than he does in factory loads. This does not take away any of the other very sound reasons to use defense-intent factory loads in defense guns.


Sorry, my post wasn't actually meant to be directed to you, just in general to the discussion. ;)

Offline onesureshot

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Re: Not using Reloads for home defense
« Reply #37 on: December 24, 2009, 10:38:02 AM »
I agree an overzealous DA will use whatever means necessary.

I disagree that factory loads will bring as much an avenue to prosecute by. In reloading, you will be tried on every single facet of the cartridge. From the bullet you choose, to how much propellant you use. Going and buying a box because you were instructed to "by an expert" shuts down a lot of liability on your part that reloading does not.

If you don't see that, sorry.



I agree there is potential for the use of handloads to give a prosecutor more ammo ( no pun intended ) in a case against you, I was just trying to make the point that the potential is there for them to go the other direction too. I carry factory loads in my CCW weapons and pretty much everybody I know does the same thing, but if it came down to carrying with a handload or not having ammo to carry at all, I would carry a handload if I had no other choice.

The argument can go both directions. In the linked article it mentioned that a handloader argued he could make more reliable ammo. This hold some merit, as the handloader is able to inspect every round he loads, case / primer holes / bullet / powder charge etc, whereas loading factory ammo leaves some "hope" that everything is perfect. I would like to believe that QC at factories would be perfect but it is not. I have personally had a round of FACTORY Federal Law Enforcement .45 ACP ammo that had the primer in backwards. Not if you take into consideration that the ammo is loaded bullet down in the plastic tray, leaving the primer on top, it should have been caught before being boxed and shipped, but this was a case of it being "good enough" I saw the problem the minute I took the plastic tray out of the box. I have also had a round of Speer FACTORY ammo that the bullet had caught on the neck and caused it to crease and it would not chamber. I ALWAYS inspect EVERY SINGLE round I load in my CCW weapons to check for such things. I had a buddy that had a FACTORY Winchester 9mm white box practice round that did not have a flash hole. I was with him when he tried to fire it. He was part way through a mag when his pistol made a funky pop and did not cycle. He cleared it and benched it to check for a squib. He picked up the cleared case only to find the bullet still in place and the primer had come apart leaving the primer pocket empty, and he noticed the primer pocket had no flash hole. This just shows that FACTORY ammo is NOT always perfect. Given this one could argue in favor of the handload for life and death purposes.

Now that I have rambled on I will wrap it up by saying that I am not trying to be standoffish or anything like that, I just want to point out there is another side of the coin so to speak.

And with that being said, lets all hope none of us ever have to experience this firsthand.

Merry Christmas!!!

Offline Stein

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Re: Not using Reloads for home defense
« Reply #38 on: January 15, 2010, 11:28:58 AM »
While the reload vs factory debate will continue, I can see just the opposite being pulled into play too:

Defendant: "I used the same ammo my local PD uses, it's what my CCW instructor recommended"

Attorney: "So you felt it best to use police type ammo? Are you a police officer? Why would a civilian need to use police ammo?"


"I was trained by a police officer at a range that is used for police instruction and have more hours of training than is required to be a police officer."  That's the great thing about straw arguments, they are easy to take down.

I get your point about neverending possibilities though.

I believe a big reason against handloads is that you can't go back and verify what the exact load or bullet balistics, powder residue, etc were.  This opens up several problems including the claim that you loaded them extra hot or some other nonsense.  Again, it could be a problem if you hit something other than what you were aiming for and the velocity of your bullet was called into question.

The guy that told me to carry factory loads is an avid reloader, ex cop and currently an attorney specializing in self defense cases.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2010, 11:31:47 AM by Stein »

Offline Jack Crabb

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Re: Not using Reloads for home defense
« Reply #39 on: January 15, 2010, 03:32:18 PM »
I believe a big reason against handloads is that you can't go back and verify what the exact load or bullet balistics, powder residue, etc were.  This opens up several problems including the claim that you loaded them extra hot or some other nonsense.  Again, it could be a problem if you hit something other than what you were aiming for and the velocity of your bullet was called into question.

The lack of verification is not entirely accurate. This concern has its origins in the New Jersey case where the man worked up a series of reloads with increasing powder charges to test load development. Somehow between the time he reloaded the cartridges and shooting them at the range, his girlfriend loaded up a handgun and committed suicide. There was minimal gun shot residue (GSR). The prosecutor said the lack of GSR was due to the man shooting her at a distance, i.e., a homicide. The man said she shot herself with a load containing a minimal charge. Unfortunately for him, because of the variety of charges he made, there was no way to determine which charge she used. Without the ability to duplicate the load, there was no way to test whether the GSR was consistent with a minimal load or homicide. So, New Jersey man has all sorts of legal problems for years to come. Overall, a fairly unique circumstance.

Compare that to the typical reloader. Most reloaders are going to do batches of at least 100 rounds to use a full tray of primers and/or box of bullets. In this instance, the rest of the rounds in your firearm are the same load as the ones discharged. Now, there may be some problems with testing those rounds because they could be sitting in the evidence locker. However, the rest of the rounds in the box at home are the same load. One would just need to avoid the situation of shooting the bad guy with the last round of the batch.

The bigger problem comes if you have to duplicate the load. The odds of getting primers, powder, bullets, etc. from the same batches is slim. One of the touted benefits of factory ammo is that the manufacturers keep a library of production runs. If one can at least get the lot number from the ammo, then the factory may be able to provide exemplar rounds.

Offline pac1911

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Re: Not using Reloads for home defense
« Reply #40 on: February 07, 2010, 09:56:57 PM »
Too bad we don't live in a world where a good shoot is a good shoot.

the most important pint of this thread is the fact that the trauma of a self defense shoting does not end after the last shot is fired.  You need to train for the events that willtake place after you pull the trigger.

1.  Be first to call 911
2.  Know what to say to the 911 operator
3.  Know what not to say to the 911operator
4.  apply 2 and 3 to police and everyone else at the scene
5.  make sure your family and friends know #2-4
6.  have a lawyer before ou defend yourself

the list goes on.

hopefully as more americans become gun owners, we will find more individuals accepting the idea of justified lethal force.

My carry ammo is  composed of handloads.