Author Topic: DOC K'S MEDICINE LIST  (Read 114224 times)

Offline rjselzler

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Re: DOC K'S MEDICINE LIST
« Reply #30 on: March 20, 2010, 12:39:44 PM »
Awesome list! What about melatonin as a sleep aid?

Offline phargolf

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Re: DOC K'S MEDICINE LIST
« Reply #31 on: March 20, 2010, 12:57:50 PM »
Great list Doc K. Again you impress me with your knowledge of drugs, no offense intended but most physicians(or pharmacists) do not have your extensive knowledge of drugs. I looked over your list twice and couldn't think of a thing you left out (except maybe some lidocaine or septocaine inj. for dental work, but again i am not a dentist).

Offline Doc K

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Re: DOC K'S MEDICINE LIST
« Reply #32 on: March 20, 2010, 01:03:31 PM »
One question (and maybe I already missed your answer to this?) how does one acquire some of these meds that are prescription?  ... I fear he is afraid to prescribe anything more than my regular meds and antibotics so as not to get in any trouble.

This is a very common question in "prepper" communities.  Unfortunately, there is no easy answer.  I won't get into the constitutionality of this, but this is a real issue for those who want to be prepared.

I think the main prescription medicines that people would like access to are pain meds, epinepherine injectables, and antibiotics.

Pain meds - This is almost impossible for a person to get a prescription for if you do not need it immediately.  This is the type of medicine that physicians WILL get in to trouble for prescribing without an active diagnosis.  If you ask for some when you don't need it, you will be labelled a drug seeker, and the physician will be very concerned about what illegal activity you are involved.  To be honest, even when a person does need it, if they ask for a presciption-only pain med, physicians will be skeptical.  I'm not saying that is right.  I'm just saying how it is.  
My advice: Unfortunately, just don't ask for it.  If you have a medical condition that requires some of it, try not to use it all and save the rest.  Nothing illegal about that.  It is your medicine prescribed to you.  But you also have to remember that these medicines are prescription only for a reason... real harm, addiction, and death can, has, and does occur because of these medicines.  Be wise as a serpent and innocent as a dove.

Epinepherine Injectable Medicine (e.g. Epi-Pens) - You will have a wide range of physicians' opinions on this medicine, but I am very quick to prescribe this type of medicine.  There is always a risk in using any medicine, but this one has low risk for negative effects.   It has a very high chance of being the one medicine that can save a life when nothing else will do.  I have prescribed this to bee-keepers (even if they have never had a reaction), to people with known allergic reactions that caused neck/airway swelling in the past, to people who have had mild, but worsening reactions to a substance (like shrimp for example) to have on hand if it does become severe, and I even prescribed it to a fire-fighter who was very allergic to poison-ivy and was doing a field burn (he was concerned, and it is true, that poison-ivy smoke will cause a reaction if he breathed it in).  
My advice: Come up with a good, and legitimate, reason to have one on hand and ask for it.  Don't make something up (as has been said by another one of the physicians on this board - Physicians have a good BS-meter.  We have to use it way too much unfortunately.  Don't push it, and be polite.  You never know.

Antibiotics - Very tough one.  There is way too much overprescription when it is not needed, and then physicians won't prescribe some for a person to use when it is needed (but just not yet).  The big problem with having antibiotics on hand to use when...  is that most of you did not train for years and years and have seen hundreds or thousands of patients to determine the difference between a condition that needs no antibiotics, oral antibiotics, IV antibiotics, or IV antibiotics and surgical intervention.  If you make the wrong choice because you thought wrong, someone could die.  I am not trying to be over dramatic, or to say that physicians are never wrong (Lord knows that is not true).  That is why we call it the practice of medicine.  But we have a lot more practice.  Heck, even Michael Jordan still practiced basketball, but I would want him on my team.
My advice: I think it is very legitimate to ask for an antibiotic prescription to treat Travelers Diarrhea before a trip - just in case.  If you don't need it, save it in an airtight, dark, cool, dry place.  Most other antibiotics will be harder to ask for legitimately.  


Sorry for not being able to give a great method to acquire some of these medicines.  But I think the knowledge of what to use is still very important.  In a TEOTWAWKI situation, no prescription will be needed.  But you will have to know what to barter/scrounge for effectively.  This information may help.

Doc K

Offline Doc K

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Re: DOC K'S MEDICINE LIST
« Reply #33 on: March 20, 2010, 01:07:44 PM »
Awesome list! What about melatonin as a sleep aid?

I think it can and does work for some people (is it just placebo... ???  I don't think we know that yet). 
But it is basically a pretty safe substance to take (but, as always, any thing you put into you body to change/alter/treat one thing, may do something else to another part of your body.  There is no such thing as a safe anything.  Even water can kill.)

Not a bad thing to add to your kit if it works for you.

Doc K

Offline Doc K

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Re: DOC K'S MEDICINE LIST
« Reply #34 on: March 20, 2010, 01:09:10 PM »
I looked over your list twice and couldn't think of a thing you left out (except maybe some lidocaine or septocaine inj. for dental work, but again i am not a dentist).

I am actually saving those meds for another post on minor surgery.  It may take a while to get it finished, but I'm working on it! :)

Doc K

Offline The Wilderness

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Re: DOC K'S MEDICINE LIST
« Reply #35 on: March 20, 2010, 01:21:47 PM »
Doc K

What a valuable resource! Thank you so much for taking the time to do this.

I am in awe of this post, WOW!

TW

Offline Riverman

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Re: DOC K'S MEDICINE LIST
« Reply #36 on: March 20, 2010, 01:49:37 PM »
Doc K thanks so much for this info...it is very useful. I do have a question for you. If we are able to get excess antibiotics....what is the best method to prolong their shelf life?

Riverman

Offline OKGranny

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Re: DOC K'S MEDICINE LIST
« Reply #37 on: March 20, 2010, 02:08:58 PM »
Thanks, this is great. I'm pretty well covered on the antibiotics, I have cipro and a amoxicillin and doxycycline with refills as my doctor has been my doctor forever and knows I know when to take what and I have Epinepherine in the form of epi-pens but there are a few things I still need to add.

Offline SaltyHobbit

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Re: DOC K'S MEDICINE LIST
« Reply #38 on: March 20, 2010, 03:26:40 PM »
+1 great extensive post. Good info for all

Offline Dainty

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Re: DOC K'S MEDICINE LIST
« Reply #39 on: March 20, 2010, 05:13:22 PM »
Doc K, I registered just so I could reply to this post. Feel special. ;D

I wanted to know, what natural remedies would you recommend as sufficient substitutes for some of these medications? Two possibilities that immediately came to my mind was willow bark instead of Aspirin and caprylic acid as an antifungal. I'd be interested to hear your take on these and any others you care to share about.

I've read your post here about your thoughts on herbal medicine and found it very balanced and helpful. I was wondering if you might be willing to elaborate on the specifics if which herbs you think generally "work".

Offline TwoBluesMama

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Re: DOC K'S MEDICINE LIST
« Reply #40 on: March 20, 2010, 05:17:41 PM »
This is a very common question in "prepper" communities.  Unfortunately, there is no easy answer.  I won't get into the constitutionality of this, but this is a real issue for those who want to be prepared.

I think the main prescription medicines that people would like access to are pain meds, epinepherine injectables, and antibiotics.

Pain meds - This is almost impossible for a person to get a prescription for if you do not need it immediately.  This is the type of medicine that physicians WILL get in to trouble for prescribing without an active diagnosis.  If you ask for some when you don't need it, you will be labelled a drug seeker, and the physician will be very concerned about what illegal activity you are involved.  To be honest, even when a person does need it, if they ask for a presciption-only pain med, physicians will be skeptical.  I'm not saying that is right.  I'm just saying how it is. 
My advice: Unfortunately, just don't ask for it.  If you have a medical condition that requires some of it, try not to use it all and save the rest.  Nothing illegal about that.  It is your medicine prescribed to you.  But you also have to remember that these medicines are prescription only for a reason... real harm, addiction, and death can, has, and does occur because of these medicines.  Be wise as a serpent and innocent as a dove.

Epinepherine Injectable Medicine (e.g. Epi-Pens) - You will have a wide range of physicians' opinions on this medicine, but I am very quick to prescribe this type of medicine.  There is always a risk in using any medicine, but this one has low risk for negative effects.   It has a very high chance of being the one medicine that can save a life when nothing else will do.  I have prescribed this to bee-keepers (even if they have never had a reaction), to people with known allergic reactions that caused neck/airway swelling in the past, to people who have had mild, but worsening reactions to a substance (like shrimp for example) to have on hand if it does become severe, and I even prescribed it to a fire-fighter who was very allergic to poison-ivy and was doing a field burn (he was concerned, and it is true, that poison-ivy smoke will cause a reaction if he breathed it in). 
My advice: Come up with a good, and legitimate, reason to have one on hand and ask for it.  Don't make something up (as has been said by another one of the physicians on this board - Physicians have a good BS-meter.  We have to use it way too much unfortunately.  Don't push it, and be polite.  You never know.

Antibiotics - Very tough one.  There is way too much overprescription when it is not needed, and then physicians won't prescribe some for a person to use when it is needed (but just not yet).  The big problem with having antibiotics on hand to use when...  is that most of you did not train for years and years and have seen hundreds or thousands of patients to determine the difference between a condition that needs no antibiotics, oral antibiotics, IV antibiotics, or IV antibiotics and surgical intervention.  If you make the wrong choice because you thought wrong, someone could die.  I am not trying to be over dramatic, or to say that physicians are never wrong (Lord knows that is not true).  That is why we call it the practice of medicine.  But we have a lot more practice.  Heck, even Michael Jordan still practiced basketball, but I would want him on my team.
My advice: I think it is very legitimate to ask for an antibiotic prescription to treat Travelers Diarrhea before a trip - just in case.  If you don't need it, save it in an airtight, dark, cool, dry place.  Most other antibiotics will be harder to ask for legitimately. 


Sorry for not being able to give a great method to acquire some of these medicines.  But I think the knowledge of what to use is still very important.  In a TEOTWAWKI situation, no prescription will be needed.  But you will have to know what to barter/scrounge for effectively.  This information may help.

Doc K

Thank you so much!  This is the best advice I've gotten on this subject - I appreciate what you did here for all of us.  Blessings, TBM

Offline tman61

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Re: DOC K'S MEDICINE LIST
« Reply #41 on: March 20, 2010, 05:29:09 PM »
Fantastic list!  Thank you!

Offline Dainty

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Re: DOC K'S MEDICINE LIST
« Reply #42 on: March 20, 2010, 05:33:25 PM »
Yikes, I meant for my last post to include a big thank you but I somehow forgot it! Thank you, Doc K, for taking the time and effort to write all that information out for us.

Offline Doc K

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Re: DOC K'S MEDICINE LIST
« Reply #43 on: March 20, 2010, 06:59:05 PM »
If we are able to get excess antibiotics....what is the best method to prolong their shelf life?

Riverman

If you have medicine that you are not going to use for some time, you want to store it in a cool, dry, dark, airtight location.
Air, moisture, heat, and light are the enemies.

Vacuum seal with an oxygen absorber and dessicant (silica) packet followed by storing in an opaque (doesn't allow light in) box in the basement or refrigerator would be the ideal location for most medications, and will give the longest shelf life. 
This isn't practical for a lot of people, but it is the best.  The closest you can get to these conditions will allow the medicine to last as long as possible.

Most pharmacies will put an expiration date of one year from the filling date of the prescription on the bottle.  This is not the same date as the original, airtight packaging. 

As I said earlier, we do not know how long most medicines will last and still work.  It is likely much longer (3-10+ years??) than the original expiration date if kept in ideal conditions, maybe longer.  But if it is kept in the big bottle from the pharmacy in your car for 3 months... I wouldn't trust it to work for too long.

Doc K

Offline Doc K

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Re: DOC K'S MEDICINE LIST
« Reply #44 on: March 20, 2010, 07:12:18 PM »
Doc K, I registered just so I could reply to this post. Feel special. ;D

Thanks!  I really do!   :D


I wanted to know, what natural remedies would you recommend as sufficient substitutes for some of these medications? Two possibilities that immediately came to my mind was willow bark instead of Aspirin and caprylic acid as an antifungal. I'd be interested to hear your take on these and any others you care to share about.

I've read your post here about your thoughts on herbal medicine and found it very balanced and helpful. I was wondering if you might be willing to elaborate on the specifics if which herbs you think generally "work".

That is another one of my projects.  I hope to provide a thorough review of the most useful, reliable, and readily available herbal and alternative/complimentary medicines out there.  As I said in the above post, I think there is a place for herbal medicine in the "modern" world.  If the modern world stops being so modern (like after a solar flare EMP or other calamity), all we may have are plant based medicines.  I feel that physicians need to understand what works and doesn't and why, as well as what is safe.

I hope in the near future to have the time to devote a post to these medicines.  Stay tuned!  ;D

Doc K

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Re: DOC K'S MEDICINE LIST
« Reply #45 on: March 21, 2010, 09:04:58 AM »
I did have an accidental ommission in the OTC Pain meds.  Naproxen sodium (Aleve) is sold over the counter:

Naproxen sodium (Aleve)
Pain
200 mg PO every 8-12 hrs (max 600 mg per 24 hrs)
I added this to the appropriate area.

Offline asbestos

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Re: DOC K'S MEDICINE LIST
« Reply #46 on: March 22, 2010, 02:32:01 PM »
I didn't see Modafinil (Provigil/Alertec et al.) in the list. For those who have never heard of it, it's a drug which is used in the treatment of fatigue and narcolepsy. The military uses it to help pilots who need to fly 30hr+ missions maintain alertness, forgo sleep, and still function at near peak capacity.

It would be an extremely valuable post-disaster aid (e.g. you have to spend 18-24 hours in your car driving), and is safe for most people to use. It has vague enough indications for use that it shouldn't be a problem to obtain; especially if, like me, you have a job which requires you to work extremely long and irregular hours for weeks at a time. It's not an amphetamine, and has low potential for addiction.

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Re: DOC K'S MEDICINE LIST
« Reply #47 on: March 25, 2010, 10:01:15 PM »
I will like I'm beating a dead horse but . Thank you Doc great work . Now can you add to it some. or put a pamphlet together ?

Offline swoods

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Re: DOC K'S MEDICINE LIST
« Reply #48 on: March 26, 2010, 08:40:28 AM »
Wow, what an effort you put into this. Thanks so much. I love this forum and the amount of info that is available.

Offline Lara

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Re: DOC K'S MEDICINE LIST
« Reply #49 on: March 26, 2010, 07:39:49 PM »
Thank you so much for this wonderful resource.  We seem to have MANY of the same meds in our must-have lists.  ;)

I have one med to add to the GI section, and forgive me if I overlooked it on your list:

Dicyclomine 20 mg po four times daily as needed for GI cramping.  Since many wilderness ailments include diarrhea/cramping, this can be very useful.  I've seen many people faint from severe cramping, and this can make them more able to self-rescue and walk to a higher level of care.

And...one thing to add to the discussion about Doxycycline and prolonged storage, since it's so handy to keep around for tickborne rickettsial diseases.  As tempting as it is to hang onto Doxycycline, it can degrade with prolonged storage, and can cause acute renal failure (laypeople read as: general kidney BADness) if it is used too long after the expiration date.

My two cents...thanks again for a wonderful series of posts.

Offline ozarked

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Re: DOC K'S MEDICINE LIST
« Reply #50 on: March 26, 2010, 09:59:09 PM »
Thanks, Doc.  Hope to buy you a beer someday.  This list is (ahem) just what the doctor ordered when trying to put together my TEOTWAWKI medicine chest.

One quick question.  The major problem faced by diabetics is their inability to store sufficient quantities of insulin long term.  Would reverting to oral meds such as Metformin (because they are easier to store) be of any benefit?  In other words, would they lower BS at all?

Offline antsyaunt

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Re: DOC K'S MEDICINE LIST
« Reply #51 on: March 27, 2010, 01:36:41 PM »
Thanks Doc K - this is incredibly helpful. +1 for a great post.  I've been working on our first aid kit (which is huge and we take it on every trip farther than just around our local area) and I will now go through it again and add what is not there from your list.  One question (and maybe I already missed your answer to this?) how does one acquire some of these meds that are prescription?  My Doc is great in that he gives me prescriptions for a couple of different antibotics to keep on hand (with Lupus something minor can turn major in just a day or two) but beyond that I am stumped.  I've talked to him a little about survivalism and prepping - he gets some of it but I fear he is afraid to prescribe anything more than my regular meds and antibotics so as not to get in any trouble. Thanks again for absolutely great post.  TBM

Doc K, what do you think of people storing/using antibiotics that are made for animals?  I have seen links posted to veterinary supplies such as antibiotic capsules to use for fish.  Would this be worth pursuing IF correct dosing information for humans (such as that provided by epocrates) would be referenced before administration of the antibiotic?  I'd be interested in your thoughts and those of other health care providers and pharmacists. 

Offline Doc K

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Re: DOC K'S MEDICINE LIST
« Reply #52 on: March 28, 2010, 03:31:10 PM »
I didn't see Modafinil (Provigil/Alertec et al.) in the list. For those who have never heard of it, it's a drug which is used in the treatment of fatigue and narcolepsy. The military uses it to help pilots who need to fly 30hr+ missions maintain alertness, forgo sleep, and still function at near peak capacity.

It would be an extremely valuable post-disaster aid (e.g. you have to spend 18-24 hours in your car driving), and is safe for most people to use. It has vague enough indications for use that it shouldn't be a problem to obtain; especially if, like me, you have a job which requires you to work extremely long and irregular hours for weeks at a time. It's not an amphetamine, and has low potential for addiction.

Good thoughts.

Indeed this one is used in the military.  While it is not addictive, there is potential for abuse (as is the case with many medications).  With that said, if you are a person who would need to stay awake, this one may not be a bad one to add to your pharmaceutical arsenal.  For a general survival concept though, it is best to travel in numbers.  It is best to let your body sleep when it is tired.  Lack of sleep will lead to bad decisions and a poor outlook when you need a positive attitude the most.

Modafinil (Provigil)
Fatigue / Narcolepsy
200-400 mg by mouth one time per day (max 400 mg per 24 hrs)
(Maybe Archer can work his magic and add this to the sleep section???  ;))


I have one med to add to the GI section, and forgive me if I overlooked it on your list: Dicyclomine 20 mg po four times daily as needed for GI cramping.  Since many wilderness ailments include diarrhea/cramping, this can be very useful.  I've seen many people faint from severe cramping, and this can make them more able to self-rescue and walk to a higher level of care.

Great addition!

Dicyclomine (Bentyl)
Abdominal Cramping / Irritable Bowel Syndrome
20-40 mg by mouth every 6 hours as needed for cramping (max 160 mg per 24 hours)
(Maybe Archer can work his magic AGAIN and add this to the GI section!)

And...one thing to add to the discussion about Doxycycline and prolonged storage, since it's so handy to keep around for tickborne rickettsial diseases.  As tempting as it is to hang onto Doxycycline, it can degrade with prolonged storage, and can cause acute renal failure (laypeople read as: general kidney BADness) if it is used too long after the expiration date.

Really important point here.  As I said in earlier posts, some medicines can last well for years, and other medicines won’t be safe long term.  We don’t know which is which unfortunately, as that information is not made public.

However, we do know that any medicine that ends with “–cyline” will be UNSAFE for long term storage.


Doc K, what do you think of people storing/using antibiotics that are made for animals?

I'll be real honest and say I don't know.  The two sides of the issue are 1) if these are the exact same medicines, it should be no problem (the dosing may be different based on concentrations however) and 2) since these are not "made for human use" are there preservatives or other ingredients that would be harmful to humans?

I may try to make a few phone calls and track this one down a bit more...


Thanks, Doc.  Hope to buy you a beer someday. 

One quick question.  The major problem faced by diabetics is their inability to store sufficient quantities of insulin long term.  Would reverting to oral meds such as Metformin (because they are easier to store) be of any benefit?  In other words, would they lower BS at all?

Forget the karma points… I’ll take the beer!   ;D

Good question.  Insulin does not store well long term. 
Unfortunately, Metformin (Glucophage) does have the potential to cause a deadly lactic acidosis.  I left this one off the list on purpose, because without a lab to watch for kidney function this medicine would potentially be very unsafe.  But if the alternative is death from diabetic ketoacidosis, then I may risk it.  Metformin also has the unfortunate side effect of causing severe GI upset, nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea in some people when they first start taking it.  When I prescribe this medicine, I always start at a low dose and work up to the treatment dose needed.

If you had a lab (or no other options) here is the dosing:
Metformin (Glucophage) - Immediate Release Form
Start with 500 mg by mouth daily for a week;
Then increase to 500 mg by mouth twice daily for a week;
Then increase to 500 mg by mouth in the a.m. and 1,000 mg by mouth in the p.m.
You can work your way up to 850-1,000 mg by mouth twice a day (I wouldn’t go any higher without a laboratory available).

Metformin (Glucophage) – Extended Release (ER) Form
Start with 500 mg ER by mouth one time daily for a week;
Increase by 500 mg ER daily every week to an final dose of 1,000-2,000 mg total ER daily.

Check out this link to another thread where homemade insulin is talked about quite a bit.

Hope this helps,
Doc K



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Re: DOC K'S MEDICINE LIST
« Reply #53 on: March 28, 2010, 05:03:04 PM »
Original GI and Sleep threads modified... Thanks again, Doc (Free Beer available for you in Ft. Worth anytime, too!).

LvsChant

Offline antsyaunt

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Re: DOC K'S MEDICINE LIST
« Reply #54 on: March 28, 2010, 05:49:15 PM »

I'll be real honest and say I don't know.  The two sides of the issue are 1) if these are the exact same medicines, it should be no problem (the dosing may be different based on concentrations however) and 2) since these are not "made for human use" are there preservatives or other ingredients that would be harmful to humans?

I may try to make a few phone calls and track this one down a bit more...


Thanks!  Sometimes I think along the line of #1 above, but then other times I think of the second possibility, which creeps me out.  I appreciate your thoughtful replies to all of us. 

Offline phargolf

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Re: DOC K'S MEDICINE LIST
« Reply #55 on: March 28, 2010, 08:07:28 PM »
Thanks!  Sometimes I think along the line of #1 above, but then other times I think of the second possibility, which creeps me out.  I appreciate your thoughtful replies to all of us. 
Most solid dosage forms will be o.k. Where you will run into trouble is with the injectables- for ex. penicillin in vet stuff is o.k. for human use (but a different concentration so you will have to know the dosage you need and extrapolate from there), but some of the antiinflamatory drugs use an oil base that could be harmful to humans. I guess if it is all you can get then it is better than nothing in a SHTF scenario but you really need human meds to be completely safe. Just an old geezers .02 ;)

Offline ozarked

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Re: DOC K'S MEDICINE LIST
« Reply #56 on: March 28, 2010, 08:18:20 PM »
Once more, Doc, thanks for a very through answer.  Please allow me to rephrase:  is there any oral, easily stored diabetes med worth considering for TEOTWAWKI preps?

Forget the karma points… I’ll take the beer!  

Good question.  Insulin does not store well long term.  
Unfortunately, Metformin (Glucophage) does have the potential to cause a deadly lactic acidosis.  I left this one off the list on purpose, because without a lab to watch for kidney function this medicine would potentially be very unsafe.  But if the alternative is death from diabetic ketoacidosis, then I may risk it.  Metformin also has the unfortunate side effect of causing severe GI upset, nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea in some people when they first start taking it.  When I prescribe this medicine, I always start at a low dose and work up to the treatment dose needed.

If you had a lab (or no other options) here is the dosing:
Metformin (Glucophage) - Immediate Release Form
Start with 500 mg by mouth daily for a week;
Then increase to 500 mg by mouth twice daily for a week;
Then increase to 500 mg by mouth in the a.m. and 1,000 mg by mouth in the p.m.
You can work your way up to 850-1,000 mg by mouth twice a day (I wouldn’t go any higher without a laboratory available).

Metformin (Glucophage) – Extended Release (ER) Form
Start with 500 mg ER by mouth one time daily for a week;
Increase by 500 mg ER daily every week to an final dose of 1,000-2,000 mg total ER daily.

Check out this link to another thread where homemade insulin is talked about quite a bit.

Hope this helps,
Doc K



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Offline Docwatmo

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Re: DOC K'S MEDICINE LIST
« Reply #57 on: March 29, 2010, 07:02:12 AM »
Doc K,  I think you have free beer in every state in the Union about now :)  Thanks again for this. 




Offline archer

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Re: DOC K'S MEDICINE LIST
« Reply #58 on: March 29, 2010, 07:14:30 AM »
Original GI and Sleep threads modified... Thanks again, Doc (Free Beer available for you in Ft. Worth anytime, too!).

LvsChant
Thanks lvschant. Beat me to it.

Offline TwoBluesMama

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Re: DOC K'S MEDICINE LIST
« Reply #59 on: March 29, 2010, 02:02:40 PM »
I just wanted to share that I took and printed all of Doc's list and then put the pages in plastic sleeves in my SHTF binder.  I started this notebook a while back with info that I get from the forum or other websites or the internet that I might need in a bad situation and the computer is down or electricity's out. I think this list is something to keep and refer to if needed later.

Thanks again Doc for invaluable info.  I have taken the suggestion from others to save a few pills each month and add them to SHTF bag of meds.  Blessings TBM