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The Survival Podcast Forum > Armory, Self Defense, And EDC > The Armory: Rifles, Pistols, And Other Weapons > Firearms (Including Long Guns, Pistols) > Modern Rifles, Shotguns and Carbines > 224,000 Rounds in 12 days
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The Survival Podcast Forum > Armory, Self Defense, And EDC > The Armory: Rifles, Pistols, And Other Weapons > Firearms (Including Long Guns, Pistols) > Modern Rifles, Shotguns and Carbines > 224,000 Rounds in 12 days
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James Yeager
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224,000 Rounds in 12 days
« on: December 19, 2008, 12:36:36 AM »

224,000 Rounds in 12 days
By James Yeager

This article is the property of SWAT magazine. It is copyrighted and may not be copied or used in any way without the permission of SWAT magazine.

  So what happens to a bunch of ARs, AKs and various pistols when you subject them to 12 very intense days and nearly a quarter million rounds of ammunition? Everything!  In a recent 12-day span we have 22 students in a Fighting Rifle course, a High Risk Civilian Contractor Shooting Package and a High Risk Civilian Contractor Medical Package. I decided to document the things that went wrong as we pushed men and machines through 12 very harsh days of training. This was no make-believe “Torture Test” it was actual sweat and ammunition combined to make “Training Torture”.  If these classes aren’t the toughest in the world they are close.

  These particular courses were taught on our home range in Camden Tennessee in the springtime. As is typical in this near jungle climate we had rain for about 10 of the 12 days. This of course turned our Tennessee dirt into Tennessee mud and it was everywhere and in everything. Every student was covered in it from head to toe by the end of each day. It was in the magazines and covered the guns. Since it was in the magazines it eventually found its way into the guns; that’s when the fun started!

 Before I get too deeply into this I just want to say this is not an article to bash any gun or gear manufacturer. Certainly some gear is less stellar than others but everything breaks eventually. Probably less than 5% of people who buy guns and gear ever gets the useful life out of it. Our students get their money’s worth and more! More than one manufacturer hates to hear their customers are attending our classes. It might surprise you!

“My rifle is messed up! (edited)” a student would bellow when the guns started malfunctioning. I would reply “Stay in the Fight! (also edited)” and make them work through it. The primary focus was to keep their head in the game when things have gone bad. There is always something that needs to be done in the tactical arena and you can be a productive team member regardless of the condition of your rifle.  Transitions, a battlefield pick-up of another weapon, taking over communication, dragging the wounded to cover and giving aide, throwing smoke grenades (or the loud ones) or a host of other tasks. Just because the rifle you were holding isn’t working it doesn’t mean you are down.

“My gun has never done THIS before” the students would tell me after a drill. “Really?”, I would say “Have you ever shot a thousand rounds a day in the pouring rain until the handguards nearly melted off or caught on fire all while doing Counter-Ambush drills in six inches of mud with 21 other guys?”As you can probably guess they all said no. The guys who had done drills like this before knew what to expect. For everyone else it was a real eye opener. For some it was the little things like Velcro doesn’t work when it’s muddy (So THAT is why there is Velcro as well as buckles on a lot of gear!).  Many realized while open top mag pouches are faster and sexier they do not keep debris out of the mags even if the bullets are down. For others it was the bigger things like neither ARs nor AKs work when full of mud; imagine that!

 Some of the drills have the students shooting 10-12 mags or more in a single scenario. As you can imagine this gets the guns very hot. They would sizzle and steam in the rain and mud. Between the heat and the water some guns had under-lubrication issues. Even frequent reapplication of oils didn’t help very much.  I use and recommend high temperature wheel bearing grease (just like for an M-1 Garand) for all of my firearms. It costs about $3.00 a pound. Many guys turn their nose up to it until we start shooting. It is unaffected by the heat and doesn’t run off like oil. I have used the grease from Iraq to Vancouver and all points in between. It works.

 Handguns, regardless of manufacturer, had issues and the same goes for the rifles. The grime managed to work its way into every crevice. Reliability with Glocks was bad, with every other handgun it was worse.  There was normal wear and breakage too as one could expect and it melded itself well with the abnormal parts breakage. Students would wash the guns out in a spring on the range and keep shooting them until they filled with mud again and then it was back to the spring. Although this cleaning method is very unorthodox it is effective.

We had issues with AKs that would make some people think they are not quite as robust as people would lead you to believe. I know AKs are great rifles but all machines break. There were plenty of stuck cases as the mud got into the chamber.  We had one that rusted shut, a split barrel (mud), handguards that split because of heat and steam, a broken gas tube cover retaining pin, a worn magazine catch, bi-pod pin that backed out (RPK) and several hammer springs that slipped off. We also had some weird (for an AK) malfunctions like a stuck case between the bolt and top cover and an expended case that got behind the bolt and jammed the action.

 Magazines were the source of many reliability issues.  Being full of mud was part of it but others were getting beaten up quite a bit and the dings and dents in the side walls hamper the functionality.  Also since there are about a gazillion countries that make AKs there are different variances in manufacturing. This means your Chinese mag might not fit correctly into the Romanian AK was built on an American receiver. All of the AR-15 magazines had issues with mud but the MagPul “P-Mags” did the best job overall, by a wide margin, during the 12 days. 

So how do you keep your guns and gear operational through a training class or through combat? I could write a book on this subject but here are some pointers for you to consider.

1.   Preventative Maintenance - Don't just clean your guns when you take them apart. Take a moment to inspect your gun for damage in the form of chips, cracks, broken parts and lose screws. It is better to find it during routine procedures than for it to break during a class, or worse, in combat. Check your entire rifle from front to back like the stock nut, grip screw, etc because those things do come lose. Cleaning time isn't JUST for cleaning. Use it wisely to keep your guns up and running!

2.   Use Loctite – If your guns or gear have screws or bolts use Loctite. This applies mostly to rifles accessories but pistol holsters and magazine pouches and even AKs will succumb. In a single day we had an EOTech fall off, a Surefire M-900 fell off, an AK lost a grip screw. Back-up iron sights are expensive and people lose them in nearly every class because they did not Loctite them.


3.   Lubrication - People tend to OVER lubricate their handguns and UNDER lubricate their rifles. You should NEVER put lube in a magazine or in a firing pin channel. You should ALWAYS lube handguns EXACTLY as the manufacturer recommends. ARs do not need to be “dripping” to run. In fact it could be harmful. No matter what you think Glocks and AKs need lube.

4.   Change the recoil springs on your guns. Just because it is still strong enough to get back in battery doesn't mean it is strong enough to keep the recoil from tearing the lugs off. Change them at intervals dictated by the manufacturer.


5.   Accu-wedges, recoil buffers, and plastic or rubber "thingies" have no place in a Fighting firearm. I see students with this stuff in their gun all of the time. Those things do not work and worse yet they break into pieces at the worst possible moment jamming all the bits of rubber and plastic in the most terrible places inside your guns inner workings locking it up tight! Slip-on grips are terrible additions and should be removed from your fighting pistol immediately. Add to that list triggers, and other components, that say "Match" or "Competition". Those things have NO PLACE on any fighting firearm!

6.   Inspect Your Gear - Thoroughly check every piece of your life-support equipment before every mission. Even if your only mission is concealed carry, check every screw on your Kydex holster, every stitch on your leather; insure your front sight is in place undamaged and tight. Check your chamber, check your mags, inspect your ammo, and check your cell phone, flashlight, back up gun and everything else. If you are in a combat zone you have a lot more gear to check but it is cheap life insurance!

At the end of the 12 days all of our students got through in spite of some dehydration, a few bloody noses, a twisted knee, a torn muscle, plenty of bruises (body and ego) and about 100 cases of beer. Watching them transform from a group to a team in an awesome spectacle and watching their guns and gear fall apart along the way was a sight to behold! We have finally gotten most of the mud out of the guns and gear and are getting ready for the next High Risk Civilian Contractor classes. I wonder what we will break this time?


The wet and muddy, tired and bloody group photo. They endured many hardships not least of which was tornadic activity during class.


When you use gear as a drag handle it will break in some cases. The harder you train the more you break.


Some gear, even if it is good, will not work is some conditions.


During some HRCC drills, which can last up to 30 minutes, the guns get so hot that cheap parts will melt off the guns. Stick with American quality mil-spec parts and accessories.


Anthony Navarro begins bounding back, covered with mud, with the Team’s medical bag in tow.


Another thing that affects weapons handling and reliability is stress. In some warm-up drills prior to the final exercise we give the students an adrenaline rush with the help of a simulated attack.


We are still perplexed over this AK malfunction. An empty case got behind the bolt. We have no idea how this happened!


One of the more difficult AR-15 malfunctions is the “Bullet over Bolt” and the standard “tap-rack” type clearance only makes it worse!


Edgar Mosquera, who owns a Wolfpack security company, replaced his AR-15 mags during the class with MagPul “P-Mags” for increased reliability in the tough environment. They worked!
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Re: 224,000 Rounds in 12 days
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2008, 01:54:37 AM »

10,000 rounds a piece? Wow. That'd break in a barrel.
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Re: 224,000 Rounds in 12 days
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2008, 05:14:06 AM »

Great article.  Thanks.
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Re: 224,000 Rounds in 12 days
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2008, 01:53:23 PM »

That is indeed an interesting AK malfunction.

How do you clear the AR-15 with the bullet over the top/bolt?
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Re: 224,000 Rounds in 12 days
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2008, 02:40:40 PM »

I've seen those holster issues in AAR from other classes. Is a military flap holster an improvement, or is there some other holster you recommend?
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Re: 224,000 Rounds in 12 days
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2008, 03:55:08 PM »

Quote from: kaiservontexas on December 19, 2008, 01:53:23 PM

How do you clear the AR-15 with the bullet over the top/bolt?

Good question.

1. Lock the charging handle forward and slam the buttstock (closed all the way it is a collapsable) onto a hard surface. This causes the bolt carrier to retract which should relieve the tension and allow the round to fall free.

OR

2. Lock the charging handle forward and use a tool (screwdriver, multitool or as a last resort your knife) and manually push the carrier back.
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Re: 224,000 Rounds in 12 days
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2008, 03:57:14 PM »

Quote from: phil_in_cs on December 19, 2008, 02:40:40 PM
I've seen those holster issues in AAR from other classes. Is a military flap holster an improvement, or is there some other holster you recommend?


Flap holsters are slow and mud would still get in them. The gun pictured still works. The mud will fly off on the first shot.

The Safariland model 6004 is the best tactical holster.
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Re: 224,000 Rounds in 12 days
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2008, 04:04:00 PM »

Thanks! I'd probably pop my multi-tool out. I am used to using it at the range with regards to bolt-action rifles. Be surprised how many people get problems in a bolt-gun.
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Re: 224,000 Rounds in 12 days
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2008, 06:35:01 PM »

Quote from: kaiservontexas on December 19, 2008, 04:04:00 PM
Thanks! I'd probably pop my multi-tool out.

Option #1 is much faster.
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Re: 224,000 Rounds in 12 days
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2008, 08:13:39 AM »

Quote from: James Yeager on December 19, 2008, 03:55:08 PM
Quote from: kaiservontexas on December 19, 2008, 01:53:23 PM

How do you clear the AR-15 with the bullet over the top/bolt?

Good question.

1. Lock the charging handle forward and slam the buttstock (closed all the way it is a collapsable) onto a hard surface. This causes the bolt carrier to retract which should relieve the tension and allow the round to fall free.

OR

2. Lock the charging handle forward and use a tool (screwdriver, multitool or as a last resort your knife) and manually push the carrier back.
I was going to say "You wouldn't believe how many folks would pull out a toolbox rather than do this option", but you're probably one of the few that would believe it.  So many folks are scared of damaging their toys, instead of fixing their weapons to get back in the battle. Last time I beat it against a rock the guy next to me thought I was nuts. I've come to understand that AR's are a bit more sturdy than most folks realize.
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Re: 224,000 Rounds in 12 days
« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2008, 04:34:43 PM »

Thanks for posting such a great article.  If I may ask, what kind of rifles are represented in your course and which one do you find most reliable under those extremely harsh conditions?
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Re: 224,000 Rounds in 12 days
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2008, 01:24:17 AM »

GlenM,

 We get all kinds of rifles in our classes. Aks do the best job overall.
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Re: 224,000 Rounds in 12 days
« Reply #12 on: December 25, 2008, 10:58:11 PM »

I like the guy all the way to the left in the 1st pic and the guy with the pink shirt on the right. HA HA.

The guy in the last pic James posted is on the cover of SWAT. He is also on my add in the new Barrett anual magazine available at walmart.

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Re: 224,000 Rounds in 12 days
« Reply #13 on: December 25, 2008, 11:01:05 PM »

Quote from: GlenM on December 21, 2008, 04:34:43 PM
Thanks for posting such a great article.  If I may ask, what kind of rifles are represented in your course and which one do you find most reliable under those extremely harsh conditions?

When you look at the stuff available at James' pro shop you will see all the armoro parts for the AR. What you will not see any of is AK parts. Amoror parts that is. They have all the accessories just not parts. They would never sell them. No one buys them.

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Re: 224,000 Rounds in 12 days
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2008, 12:50:38 PM »

Sweet....
Planning on hooking up with you guys in April when you come back to L.A. for a Fighting Pistol.
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Re: 224,000 Rounds in 12 days
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2008, 06:40:39 PM »

We have a price increase January 1st for our travelling classes.
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Re: 224,000 Rounds in 12 days
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2008, 06:52:24 PM »

Very nice article and original content too!. I usually dont post in the gun threads because frankly they never seem to offer any new information. I like this post because it takes a look at the hard use aspect of firearms and its equipment It made me think a little and will influence my buying decisions in the future. I would sure like to go to one of those classes but I betcha they are expensive/not even available to civilians.
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Re: 224,000 Rounds in 12 days
« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2008, 10:03:37 PM »

Oh yeah one more thing I wanted to ask. About what percentage would you say of the students in your class suffer a malfunction of the kind that you write about, ie the kind that messes your gun up for a good while till it can be made to get going again?
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Re: 224,000 Rounds in 12 days
« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2008, 10:24:49 PM »

Quote from: Spamity Calamity on December 29, 2008, 06:52:24 PM
Very nice article and original content too!. I usually dont post in the gun threads because frankly they never seem to offer any new information. I like this post because it takes a look at the hard use aspect of firearms and its equipment It made me think a little and will influence my buying decisions in the future. I would sure like to go to one of those classes but I betcha they are expensive/not even available to civilians.

I will NEVER teach a class that isn't open to civilians. NEVER. I am a Life NRA member and a proud supporter of the 2nd Ammendment.
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Re: 224,000 Rounds in 12 days
« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2008, 10:40:59 PM »

Quote from: James Yeager on December 29, 2008, 10:24:49 PM
Quote from: Spamity Calamity on December 29, 2008, 06:52:24 PM
Very nice article and original content too!. I usually dont post in the gun threads because frankly they never seem to offer any new information. I like this post because it takes a look at the hard use aspect of firearms and its equipment It made me think a little and will influence my buying decisions in the future. I would sure like to go to one of those classes but I betcha they are expensive/not even available to civilians.

I will NEVER teach a class that isn't open to civilians. NEVER. I am a Life NRA member and a proud supporter of the 2nd Ammendment.

You are a good man then. So does every student's firearm suffer a malfunction like that or about what percentage would you say?
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Re: 224,000 Rounds in 12 days
« Reply #20 on: December 31, 2008, 12:22:32 AM »

Quote from: Spamity Calamity on December 30, 2008, 10:40:59 PM

You are a good man then. So does every student's firearm suffer a malfunction like that or about what percentage would you say?

Which one? I talked about several.
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Re: 224,000 Rounds in 12 days
« Reply #21 on: December 31, 2008, 10:28:59 AM »

Mr. Yeager,

How does one find out more about these class offerings?  [Noticed the link in your signature.] Not that I am in a financial position to take advantage of such at the moment (10,000 rounds is a few thousands dollars all by itself). But doesn't mean I am not interested...

I am also curious, besides ARs and AKs, what other rifles do you see? FN FALs, P-90, Mini-14s?
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Re: 224,000 Rounds in 12 days
« Reply #22 on: December 31, 2008, 08:55:38 PM »

Quote from: NUGUN on December 31, 2008, 10:28:59 AM

I am also curious, besides ARs and AKs, what other rifles do you see? FN FALs, P-90, Mini-14s?

 AKs and ARs are the lions share but we have a variety of others.
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Re: 224,000 Rounds in 12 days
« Reply #23 on: December 31, 2008, 10:15:16 PM »

Quote from: James Yeager on December 31, 2008, 12:22:32 AM
Quote from: Spamity Calamity on December 30, 2008, 10:40:59 PM

You are a good man then. So does every student's firearm suffer a malfunction like that or about what percentage would you say?

Which one? I talked about several.

I mean like any of the kind that you have to pull out a leatherman in order to fix. You know something that takes your main weapon out of the fight for a good period of time,
I mean like would you say half the students suffer a somewhat severe malfunction of some kind at some point in the class? 1/4? Most of them? Im just trying to get my head around how inevitable a mechanical failure is.
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Re: 224,000 Rounds in 12 days
« Reply #24 on: December 31, 2008, 10:32:27 PM »

Quote from: Spamity Calamity on December 31, 2008, 10:15:16 PM
Quote from: James Yeager on December 31, 2008, 12:22:32 AM
Quote from: Spamity Calamity on December 30, 2008, 10:40:59 PM

You are a good man then. So does every student's firearm suffer a malfunction like that or about what percentage would you say?

Which one? I talked about several.

I mean like any of the kind that you have to pull out a leatherman in order to fix. You know something that takes your main weapon out of the fight for a good period of time,
I mean like would you say half the students suffer a somewhat severe malfunction of some kind at some point in the class? 1/4? Most of them? Im just trying to get my head around how inevitable a mechanical failure is.

Less than 1%
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Re: 224,000 Rounds in 12 days
« Reply #25 on: January 01, 2009, 02:52:46 PM »

Quote from: James Yeager on December 31, 2008, 10:32:27 PM
Quote from: Spamity Calamity on December 31, 2008, 10:15:16 PM
Quote from: James Yeager on December 31, 2008, 12:22:32 AM
Quote from: Spamity Calamity on December 30, 2008, 10:40:59 PM

You are a good man then. So does every student's firearm suffer a malfunction like that or about what percentage would you say?

Which one? I talked about several.

I mean like any of the kind that you have to pull out a leatherman in order to fix. You know something that takes your main weapon out of the fight for a good period of time,
I mean like would you say half the students suffer a somewhat severe malfunction of some kind at some point in the class? 1/4? Most of them? Im just trying to get my head around how inevitable a mechanical failure is.

Less than 1%

Well thats encouraging to hear thank you. I am going to try your idea of high temperature wheel bearing grease and im totally giving you good karma for a great article.
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Re: 224,000 Rounds in 12 days
« Reply #26 on: January 19, 2009, 12:53:20 PM »

Quote from: NUGUN on December 31, 2008, 10:28:59 AM
Mr. Yeager,

How does one find out more about these class offerings?  [Noticed the link in your signature.] Not that I am in a financial position to take advantage of such at the moment (10,000 rounds is a few thousands dollars all by itself). But doesn't mean I am not interested...

I am also curious, besides ARs and AKs, what other rifles do you see? FN FALs, P-90, Mini-14s?

Sorry to sort of necro post, but I noticed you might a little confused. The article was about three straight four day courses that James offers. The cool thing about his school is they offer classes at a much less than normal price point. For example, Fighting Pistol is $400 for two days of instruction. I am out here in Virginia Beach and going to Blackwater for a similar course is over $1200 (and it also does not include ammo or anything other than the course in that price). And the same price is for Fighting Rifle.

I have the DVD's, I haven't attended a course yet, but if the courses are in more in depth (which of course they should be) than the videos then it is well worth the investment.

Damian
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James Yeager
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Re: 224,000 Rounds in 12 days
« Reply #27 on: January 19, 2009, 08:10:13 PM »

Quote from: TeamPrecisionIT on January 19, 2009, 12:53:20 PM
Quote from: NUGUN on December 31, 2008, 10:28:59 AM
Mr. Yeager,

How does one find out more about these class offerings?  [Noticed the link in your signature.] Not that I am in a financial position to take advantage of such at the moment (10,000 rounds is a few thousands dollars all by itself). But doesn't mean I am not interested...

I am also curious, besides ARs and AKs, what other rifles do you see? FN FALs, P-90, Mini-14s?

Sorry to sort of necro post, but I noticed you might a little confused. The article was about three straight four day courses that James offers. The cool thing about his school is they offer classes at a much less than normal price point. For example, Fighting Pistol is $400 for two days of instruction. I am out here in Virginia Beach and going to Blackwater for a similar course is over $1200 (and it also does not include ammo or anything other than the course in that price). And the same price is for Fighting Rifle.

I have the DVD's, I haven't attended a course yet, but if the courses are in more in depth (which of course they should be) than the videos then it is well worth the investment.

Damian

Thank you Damian.
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