Author Topic: Shotgun ammunition and drywall penetration  (Read 3822 times)

Offline Mr. Blank

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Shotgun ammunition and drywall penetration
« on: August 18, 2010, 09:44:04 PM »
I think this may have been posted a million years ago, but read it again today and thought it was a must read.
How many sheets of drywall will 00 buckshot go through? Read on...

LINK
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Offline Greywolf27

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Re: Shotgun ammunition and drywall penetration
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2010, 10:12:51 PM »
Good link.  I have done some testing with 9mm, 40 cal and 45 acp.  Shots were into wet phone books.  The info that follows is for the Winchester PDX1/SXT rounds.

I do not have all of the info in front of me, but can say that as expected, the 9mm penetrated the deepest (I think it was 4 phone books)
40 cal penetrated just shorted, but had a bigger channel (once again... as expected)
the 45 penetrated 3 and was in between the 3rd and 4th. (bigger wound channel)


note:
all rounds retained 99.9% of mass
45 measured .92 inches
40 measured .78 inches
9mm measured .69 inches
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Offline quiet-man

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Re: Shotgun ammunition and drywall penetration
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2010, 12:56:21 PM »
As much as people want a single, definitive answer to this subject, you're not gonna get it. There too many variables. Phone books, ballistic gelatin, monkey butts, whatever. Go to "The Box-O-Truth" web site and get some good info. However, they shoot drywall set in frames only a couple inches apart, and show that penetration. If you shoot in a dwelling/structure, those walls are farther apart, allowing for greater deceleration of the projectiles before hitting the next barrier.
00 buck pellets will maintain greater energy and greater penetration than smaller pellets. I would suggest suggest #4 buck or #2 game loads in your house as you will be in a close quarters situation where those loads will be very effective but less likely to hit your family & neighbors. Check Box-o-Truth as they fire Glaser rounds to see my point. The round begins to fragment in the first board, but it is still in a tighter mass as it hits the next boards. I've fired those rounds in a house, and as it fragments exiting the first wall it's energy drops quickly. Kind of like getting peppered with #7 or 8 shot from another dove hunter some distance away.

Offline joeinwv

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Re: Shotgun ammunition and drywall penetration
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2010, 01:00:40 PM »
Bullets that have sufficient penetration to kill humans will penetrate walls.

Overpenetration is something you have to be aware of - not something you can necessarily avoid.

Offline CaptainRW

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Re: Shotgun ammunition and drywall penetration
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2010, 03:24:54 PM »
Bullets that have sufficient penetration to kill humans will penetrate walls.

Overpenetration is something you have to be aware of - not something you can necessarily avoid.

I agree, and wish to add it's easier to get a round to penetrate less then it is to make it penetrate more.
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Offline cerakoter

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Re: Shotgun ammunition and drywall penetration
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2010, 06:07:14 PM »
I like the BOT, but according to them the .223 rounds just keeps on going and going.  I know my local SRT switched to the .223 for house clearing because of other studies showing less penetration than 9mm Sub guns.  I guess what I'm saying is that you need a larger sample than ONE and more realistic test media than a bunch of drywall lined up in unrealistic positions.

Offline JohnLloydScharf

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Re: Shotgun ammunition and drywall penetration
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2010, 09:16:30 PM »
Bullets that have sufficient penetration to kill humans will penetrate walls.

Overpenetration is something you have to be aware of - not something you can necessarily avoid.

Killing is not the object. Stopping is. There is never a certainty stopping someone will kill. There is never certainty, contrary to what passes for common sense, that killing someone will stop them from injuring or killing others. The closest to that is a shot into a branstem. Good luck on your placement for that.

Offline JohnLloydScharf

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Re: Shotgun ammunition and drywall penetration
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2010, 09:20:49 PM »
I agree, and wish to add it's easier to get a round to penetrate less then it is to make it penetrate more.

Help me understand how I can deliver 1000 footpounds of energy to an intruder's body without the possibility of more than 12 inches of penetration.

Offline JohnLloydScharf

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Re: Shotgun ammunition and drywall penetration
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2010, 09:34:33 PM »
I think this may have been posted a million years ago, but read it again today and thought it was a must read.
How many sheets of drywall will 00 buckshot go through? Read on...

LINK

"I then loaded a round of Remington 2 3/4", 00 Buck, 9 pellets.

"This load penetrated 7 boards, 3 pellets went through the 8th board, and one pellet was stuck in the 9th board."

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm

Offline quiet-man

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Re: Shotgun ammunition and drywall penetration
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2010, 11:47:20 PM »
I'm not one to get into debates, but consider this. Box 'O' Truth shoots panels lined up in series 1-2" apart. In a "real setting", wallls are farther apart, allowing deceleration, or loss of energy, before the next wall. That 1000 ft/lbs of energy is only at the muzzle of a shotgun with the full 1oz. of pellets, and as the pellets separate, they lose energy rapidly. The single 00 pellet is not like a bullet fired from a rifled barrel at higher velocity, and the penetration is not as great. I've seen a lot of different rounds fired into and out of buildings on the job, and the bullet always has greater penetration than a shotgun at any distance beyond 50 ft. "Overpenetration" has always been a conern as a liability, but after the "Hollywood bank Shoot-out", we all started carrying .223 for just that reason.   

Offline joeinwv

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Re: Shotgun ammunition and drywall penetration
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2010, 10:54:29 AM »
...There is never certainty, contrary to what passes for common sense, that killing someone will stop them from injuring or killing others. ...
So while dead men may tell no tales, they are still capable of injuring and killing others...


...the bullet always has greater penetration than a shotgun at any distance beyond 50 ft....   
Not sure about most folks, I don't have a 50' room anywhere in my house.

I remain convinced that for interior HD, nothing beats 2.75" 00 buck.

Offline Stein

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Re: Shotgun ammunition and drywall penetration
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2010, 12:03:55 PM »
In my book, overpenetration is when a bullet goes through a person's chest, exits and keeps going.  That is bad on all accounts, you can hit someone else and all of the energy wasn't passed on to the bad guy.

Going through drywall is more of a "miss" issue.  Any bullet that can stop a bad guy will easily go through walls.  Physics simply don't allow for an effective defensive round that doesn't penetrate drywall.

Offline onesureshot

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Re: Shotgun ammunition and drywall penetration
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2010, 02:18:42 PM »
Killing is not the object. Stopping is. There is never a certainty stopping someone will kill. There is never certainty, contrary to what passes for common sense, that killing someone will stop them from injuring or killing others. The closest to that is a shot into a branstem. Good luck on your placement for that.

As much as people want a single, definitive answer to this subject, you're not gonna get it. There too many variables. Phone books, ballistic gelatin, monkey butts, whatever. Go to "The Box-O-Truth" web site and get some good info. However, they shoot drywall set in frames only a couple inches apart, and show that penetration. If you shoot in a dwelling/structure, those walls are farther apart, allowing for greater deceleration of the projectiles before hitting the next barrier.
00 buck pellets will maintain greater energy and greater penetration than smaller pellets. I would suggest suggest #4 buck or #2 game loads in your house as you will be in a close quarters situation where those loads will be very effective but less likely to hit your family & neighbors. Check Box-o-Truth as they fire Glaser rounds to see my point. The round begins to fragment in the first board, but it is still in a tighter mass as it hits the next boards. I've fired those rounds in a house, and as it fragments exiting the first wall it's energy drops quickly. Kind of like getting peppered with #7 or 8 shot from another dove hunter some distance away.

Combining these two ideas, it has always been my opinion that the fastest way to stop a person on my terms is to disrupt major vital organs. They may or may not eventually die, but the more disruption the harder it gets to press the fight. I avoid reliance on anything that results in short term pain compliance only (that isn't just a gun concept BTW). I want sufficient physical disruption that continuing a fight simply isn't feasible. Mind over matter stops when the matter is broken.

As I mentioned that isn't just a gun concept, but taking that idea to ammo/shot selection, it is imperative to understand that while there is a fairly constant pain inflicted be it #8 or 000 buck, there is a sliding scale from next to 0% to just short of 100% for penetrating enough to disrupt the systems the body depends on to continue an assault. From all the gel pictures, ballistic reports etc., I've been able to find, I would say #4 bird shot is a bare minimum to hit the chest, miss the ribs and reach the heart if the angle is perfect, the range is short enough, and the body bulk was low enough... you get the idea. #2 is marginally better. The FBI guidelines for ballistic gel penetration are 12" minimum to reach vital organs, 18" upper range to limit over penetration, and 15" "ideal". There is some concern as to how relevant gel is to shotgun pellets since the effect bones have on pellets is different than the effect bullets have bones, so 12" on gel may not be 12" on a chest shot thanks to the ribs sternum and spine.

#4 buck hovers right around 12" depending on the load. Slower, unplated #4 buck loads don't go the distance. #1 through 000 seem to be the recommendation for getting the right amount of penetration. I haven't had a chance to look into over penetration after a hit, but it is my impression that it either doesn't happen, or the pellets are deformed to the point where flight and or re-penetration is severely limited.

Offline PAGUY

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Re: Shotgun ammunition and drywall penetration
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2010, 02:26:44 PM »
This is a link to a site call The Box 'O Truth.  There are many videos on here by a gentleman that is no stranger to firearms.  I hope that this answers many of the questions out there.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm
Improvise-Adapt-Modify-Overcome