Author Topic: The Most Dangerous Gun: Glock  (Read 30537 times)

Offline LastChild

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Re: The Most Dangerous Gun: Glock
« Reply #90 on: May 24, 2012, 08:59:11 AM »
There's some very good points on here.  I bought my first gun, a Glock 19 Gen 4 about a month ago.  I made the decision to purchase it base largely on this forum and doing other research online.  It came down to a choice between this Glock 19 and a Walther PK380.  I have yet to fire it because I'm waiting for the concealed weapons permit class.  But the gun itself seems almost idiot proof.  I watched youtube videos on how to load it, and I've even field stripped it and cleaned it based on videos and of course the manufactures instruction booklet.  It's so easy to take apart.  I never put my finger on the trigger, and I never point it at anything I don't want to destroy.  And I always check to make sure a round isn't in the chamber.  Correct me if I'm wrong but In Glaxico Burress's case, even if he had a loaded magazine in the gun, it shouldn't have been a problem as long as there wasn't a round in the chamber right?   I mean you should be able to pull the trigger all day as long as you haven't chambered a round, and nothing will happen, a drop, a snap with the booger picker, whatever right?  Call me an idiot and I see why people would want to keep a round chambered at all times, but I'm only going to do that if I'm in a threatening environment.  I always treat the gun as if a round were chambered and I never drink or do drugs around weapons.  So my question is: Is there a difference between a loaded Glock and a Glock with a chambered round.  It seems like common sense but I could be wrong.  Looking forward to my gun safety classes and going to the range, but I'm really happy with this gun and feel confident I could use it effectively in an emergency situation until then.  Now to find the best rounds, I'll do a search in the forum for that, I'm sure there are just as many good ideas.
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Offline patrokov

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Re: The Most Dangerous Gun: Glock
« Reply #91 on: May 24, 2012, 10:00:13 PM »
Plaxico's gun really is the most dangerous gun.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpgL5kuBpMA&ob=av3e

Correct me if I'm wrong but In Glaxico Burress's case, even if he had a loaded magazine in the gun, it shouldn't have been a problem as long as there wasn't a round in the chamber right?   I mean you should be able to pull the trigger all day as long as you haven't chambered a round, and nothing will happen, a drop, a snap with the booger picker, whatever right?  Call me an idiot and I see why people would want to keep a round chambered at all times, but I'm only going to do that if I'm in a threatening environment.  I always treat the gun as if a round were chambered and I never drink or do drugs around weapons.  So my question is: Is there a difference between a loaded Glock and a Glock with a chambered round.  It seems like common sense but I could be wrong.  Looking forward to my gun safety classes and going to the range, but I'm really happy with this gun and feel confident I could use it effectively in an emergency situation until then.  Now to find the best rounds, I'll do a search in the forum for that, I'm sure there are just as many good ideas.

To answer your first question, yes.  Generally that's called condition 3, sometimes Israeli carry, and contrary to movies like Point of No Return, it's not a good way to carry your gun.  It's cool in movies because it's theatrical to see them rack the slide...over and over again. 

Your plan to only chamber a round when you're in a "dangerous" situation is...quite terrible.  "Excuse me mister intimidating gang of hoodlums; I'm going to pull my gun out, chamber a round, and then put it back in case I need it."  The safest way to carry is ready to shoot, in a holster that 1) covers the trigger guard, and 2) allows you get a good firing while still holstered.

I would highly recommend getting some tactical training above and beyond a basic gun safety or marksmanship class by a reputable trainer like Louis Awerbuck or Randy Cain.

As for the best round, any modern hollow point (as long as you don't live in a stupid state like New Jersey) should be fine as long as it works in your gun.

Offline billt

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Re: The Most Dangerous Gun: Glock
« Reply #92 on: July 10, 2012, 10:01:47 AM »
If I ever walked into a gun shop or shooting range, and heard the person behind the counter say to someone that, "A Glock is the most dangerous gun in the world", I would turn around and walk right out. There would be no need to hear him say anything else after he had confirmed he was an idiot by making that statement.

Offline Warpalli

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Re: The Most Dangerous Gun: Glock
« Reply #93 on: July 10, 2012, 10:57:58 AM »
Glocks are the MOST DANGEROUS GUN ON THE MARKET..... if you do not practice the fundamentals of firearm safety. My glock 23 was the first handgun i ever owned, and im glad about that because it Ingrained in me the fundamental "Keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot.  Your finger is the safety, when the safety is in the "On" Position, your finger is away from the trigger,  you shut it "Off" when you put your finger on the trigger.  I feel my Glock made me a safer shooter because it completely cuts out ever using the phrase "Chill out it's on safety"  as it doesn't have one.  i can say my glock ran like clockwork, and it misfired once in around 3000 rounds that i put through it.... It misfired because of the round, the gun was fine.
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Offline billt

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Re: The Most Dangerous Gun: Glock
« Reply #94 on: July 10, 2012, 11:58:28 AM »
Glocks are the MOST DANGEROUS GUN ON THE MARKET..... if you do not practice the fundamentals of firearm safety.

ANY gun is dangerous under those circumstances.

Offline howardsheppard

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Re: The Most Dangerous Gun: Glock
« Reply #95 on: July 10, 2012, 05:54:55 PM »
I carry a Glock 19 Gen 4 and trust my life with it.  No real need to re-state what has been said so eloquently here. 

There is clearly no such thing as "idiot proof."  We keep finding better idiots!   ::)

Sounds like Mr Burress should invest some money in training...
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Online nelson96

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Re: The Most Dangerous Gun: Glock
« Reply #96 on: July 10, 2012, 07:34:06 PM »
Glocks are the MOST DANGEROUS GUN ON THE MARKET..... if you do not practice the fundamentals of firearm safety.

ANY gun is dangerous under those circumstances.

 :banghead: Nuff said . . .  Some people shouldn't own a gun period. . . .  I am now walking out of the room.
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Offline FrugalFannie

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Re: The Most Dangerous Gun: Glock
« Reply #97 on: July 10, 2012, 07:59:18 PM »
Burress shot himself almost 4 years ago - my son was 10. The first words out of my sons mouth when we heard this on the radio were:

"Doesn't he know to keep his finger off the trigger until he's ready to shoot and to always keep it pointed in a safe direction?" - My son had just learned the safety rules earlier that year and had just started shooting with me at the range.  ;D

Online nelson96

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Re: The Most Dangerous Gun: Glock
« Reply #98 on: July 10, 2012, 08:09:34 PM »
Burress shot himself almost 4 years ago - my son was 10. The first words out of my sons mouth when we heard this on the radio were:

"Doesn't he know to keep his finger off the trigger until he's ready to shoot and to always keep it pointed in a safe direction?" - My son had just learned the safety rules earlier that year and had just started shooting with me at the range.  ;D

+1 for having a smart kid.
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Offline lowland farmer

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Re: The Most Dangerous Gun: Glock
« Reply #99 on: October 26, 2012, 07:17:59 AM »
When I had a business, customers sometimes saw my 1911 carried cocked and locked and thought that was totally insane. I have never once had a gun go off except when I had my finger on the trigger, and I've been shooting 55 years and carrying for almost as long. 

Offline themonk

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Re: The Most Dangerous Gun: Glock
« Reply #100 on: October 26, 2012, 07:57:54 AM »
A little late but may be helpful for beginners doing handgun shopping.

When I first thought about getting a handgun, everyone I talked to told me to get a GLOCK. I didn't listen and I bought an FN FNX pistol because I wanted (thought I needed) a physical safety and in my inexperience I thought that GLOCK didn't fit my hand.

Well the trigger on the FN was not the best, I never used the safety I thought I needed, and it was a double-action/single-action pistol that was hard to train to. It had a long trigger pull for the first shot (double-action) and then a nice short trigger pull on-wards (single-action). Don't get me wrong, it was a great gun and it did a good job of showing me the way. I later sold it and got my money out of it.

I’m a bit of a nut when it comes to firearms safety. And once the light bulb went off in my head that my two main safeties are my brain and my trigger finger, it seemed like the mechanics of pistol manual safeties just got in the way - just my opinion. This is what led me to GLOCK. The gentlemen that the OP is speaking of, in my humble opinion, does not understand the foundation of firearms safety or how to articulate it to his customers.

If you are looking to purchase a handgun, my recommendation would be to get input from others but at the end of the day a handgun needs to act as an extension of your body. You need to find a pistol that fits your hands and naturally points at the target. Shoot as many different models as you can and then decide on which is best for you. You will be far happier and a much better shot.
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Offline Docwatmo

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Re: The Most Dangerous Gun: Glock
« Reply #101 on: October 26, 2012, 08:54:17 AM »
themonk, That was kind of the same "Light bulb" thing that happened to me.  I was used to safeties and thought I needed one.  But once you spend a little time reading real world scenarios and how people react, even highly trained people can miss the safety during an adrenalin dump, I decided I no longer needed that little extra piece of interference.  I went with an XD instead of a glock, (Just fit my hand much better).  But I will no longer have a safety on my personal defensive sidearm. 
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Offline wilsh

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Re: The Most Dangerous Gun: Glock
« Reply #102 on: November 16, 2012, 05:13:07 PM »
I'm thrilled about my GLOCK 19. The only malfunction I experienced was a failure to feed, which was due to using some faulty re-loaded ammo my buddy gave me. They weren't sized correctly, and got jammed up in the magazine. Otherwise, it has always operated flawlessly. (If only I could say the same for myself!)

The moral of this story? Buy factory loaded ammo. Even the cheap stuff works. You just have to clean your gun more often, which is good to do anyway. Common sense.

I've also heard someone (maybe James Yeager) say the two most frequent reasons GLOCK pistols are sent back to the manufacturer are (1) excessive lubrication, and (2) insufficient lubrication. Use a good high temperature grease, and follow the instructions in the manual. Issue resolved!
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Offline blueyedmule

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Re: The Most Dangerous Gun: Glock
« Reply #103 on: November 29, 2013, 07:57:38 AM »
I don't post much, but I train new shooters to get their CCW's on a monthly basis and have done so on and off for the past 10 years. IMHO the most dangerous pistol is any true DA/SA.  The whole de-cocking thing is just an accident waiting to happen.


YMMV

This is a fresh answer. I did not grow up with semi-autos. I did fire a little M16 in the USAF, but not nearly enough to get used to it. So when I bought my first semi-auto pistol the whole DA/SA with decocker frankly confused my little walnut brain until I'd thought through what was happening mechanically and why. Once I had done that I just went to carrying it with one in the pipe, hammer down. Now I am a Glock owner. :)
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Offline Bonnieblue2A

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Re: The Most Dangerous Gun: Glock
« Reply #104 on: November 29, 2013, 08:55:58 AM »
By design every handgun has the potential to be dangerous. The differing equation behind each is the safety due dilligence of each operator. Complacency kills.

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Offline Steve Cover

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Re: The Most Dangerous Gun: Glock
« Reply #105 on: November 29, 2013, 07:09:54 PM »
May I offer a different take on the most dangerous gun in the world:
It is the one you are looking down the barrel of in the hands of an excited citizen.
Name, caliber style... It doesn't matter.
Right there and then whatever he or she has in her hand is the most dangerous gun in the world.
.....................................................

As far as gun design goes, it isn't the gun, it is the competence and training of the idiot holding the gun that matters.

Some firearms are more training intensive than others.

A Colt model 1911 ready for action when carried cocked and locked as opposed to a Colt Python with it's hammer down.
The 1911 requires more training to be handled safely but, both firearms are ready for action and both are safe.

Hair triggers come into play here. Most negligent discharges are the result of a very light target weight trigger being used on a firearm designed for street use.
There is a reason why everyone complains about the lousy triggers on current production firearms.
The manufactures have provided a safe handgun...
If you want to use you new handgun to shoot competition and don't want to learn how to use a street trigger, you have to have it modified.
Naturally this trigger business cuts both ways... A lot of Police administrators want a very hard to accidently discharge issue firearm.
New York trigger on a Glock sound familiar?

Early on the Glocks issued in 40 S&W had a dangerous chamber.
Where the barrel was relieved as part of the feed ramp, the chamber left an unsupported area for the high pressure 40 S&W to blow through.
And quite often they did.

















For a time aftermarket 40 S&W barrels were very popular.
Naturally, It didn't take Glock long to fix to problem, and there hasn't been a blowup using factory ammunition for some time.
Unfortunately, the damage to Glock was already done.

For anyone to claim that one handgun or another is the most unsafe one in the world only shows a total lack of knowledge about guns.



It's all in the chimp's (chump's?) grip.

Personally, I don't own a clock.
When I was a range master at an indoor handgun range, I got the opportunity to shoot a lot of different guns.
I just didn't like the Glock.

So, my SIG Spits on your Glock

Steve
 
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Offline billt

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Re: The Most Dangerous Gun: Glock
« Reply #106 on: November 29, 2013, 08:00:53 PM »
That has nothing to do with an unsupported chamber, and everything to do with an overload.

Offline ag2

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Re: The Most Dangerous Gun: Glock
« Reply #107 on: November 29, 2013, 08:14:32 PM »
Steve,
Do you know if this was a result of a double-charge load of Bullseye, or just an older, unsupported chamber?  I noticed the missing primer, which makes me believe it was likely a double-charge or hot load over 180 or 200 grain .  But perhaps it was reamed out as part of the inspection????

Is there a good way to tell if my old Glock has the older, supported barrel?  Can I check the serial number or should I pull out a few Glock barrels and accomplish this with visual inspections?
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Offline Steve Cover

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Re: The Most Dangerous Gun: Glock
« Reply #108 on: November 30, 2013, 05:40:05 PM »
Steve,
Do you know if this was a result of a double-charge load of Bullseye, or just an older, unsupported chamber?  I noticed the missing primer, which makes me believe it was likely a double-charge or hot load over 180 or 200 grain .  But perhaps it was reamed out as part of the inspection????

Is there a good way to tell if my old Glock has the older, supported barrel?  Can I check the serial number or should I pull out a few Glock barrels and accomplish this with visual inspections?
I didn't expect to incite so much concern.
Glock took care of the problem a long time ago.

These blow-ups were reported to be with factory loads.
As it only was happening with the 40 S&W I believe that it was a unique problem.
The relatively new at the time 40 S&W is a 40,000 PSI load in a 9MM sized firearm with a thinner camber wall.
Naturally, not all 40 S&W Glocks suffered Blow-Ups.
But a significant few did.

I do remember that there was a high demand for aftermarket 40 S&W barrels at the time.

About the primer:
As soon as the barrel ruptured, it was drawn away from breech, thus no longer supporting the primer.
Just as seating primers doesn't take excessive force, pushing them out doesn't either.
The reason that it is necessary to drill out the flash holes on brass used for primer only powered wax bullets is because the primers will otherwise back out and lock up the cylinder of the gun.
There easily would have been enough residual pressure during the fail to kick out the primer once it was no longer supported.

To check to see if your barrel is over relieved, just examine your fired brass.
If there is no bulge near the base, you have no problem.

My reason for posting was not to attack Glock, but to defend them.

True, there were some problems with very early guns that got a lot of attention.
It was addressed very rapidly and has not been a problem for a lot of years.

My point was (and still is) that to declare any firearm as the most dangerous is ignoring the human interaction factor.
The most delicate instrument is safe in the hands of the experienced, and a crowbar is dangerous in the hands of an idiot.
The same standard applies to firearms.

My "dislike" of Glock firearms is not based on quality nor reliability.
I take it on faith that if it has to go "Bang" anywhere, any time, after any amount of abuse you want a Glock, because that is what they are designed to do.

They are fine (Ugly) firearms.

As the range master of an indoor pistol range, I got to check out a lot of my client's new toys.
This ranged from original Automags, Whidleys and other exotics to more conventional firearms.
(I shot a lot of Model 29s during the Dirty Harry years... mostly bought by people with no experience and angry that they couldn't shoot like Eastwood.)
It also included a large number of Glock firearms too.

While a Glock shot well and was accurate, my hand accustomed to (at the time) over 30 years of a Colt 1911 grip shape found it uncomfortable.
It is a personal thing, not a fault of the gun.

So, lighten up.... Glock is a fine weapon.

However, My Colt also spits on your Glock!

Shoot safe, be well,

Steve

 
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Offline billt

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Re: The Most Dangerous Gun: Glock
« Reply #109 on: March 19, 2014, 03:51:37 PM »
When asked why he thought that he said it's because the Glock is the most dangerous gun in the world. I was surprised to hear that from a gun shop owner who sells a lot of Glocks.

Gun shop owners are like car salesmen. Very few really know much about what they are selling. It is totally irresponsible for someone to make a stupid statement like that.

Offline Pistolero

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Re: The Most Dangerous Gun: Glock
« Reply #110 on: March 21, 2014, 05:19:30 AM »
There's some very good points on here.  I bought my first gun, a Glock 19 Gen 4 about a month ago.  I made the decision to purchase it base largely on this forum and doing other research online. 

It came down to a choice between this Glock 19 and a Walther PK380.  I have yet to fire it because I'm waiting for the concealed weapons permit class.  But the gun itself seems almost idiot proof.  I watched youtube videos on how to load it, and I've even field stripped it and cleaned it based on videos and of course the manufactures instruction booklet.  It's so easy to take apart.  I never put my finger on the trigger, and I never point it at anything I don't want to destroy.  And I always check to make sure a round isn't in the chamber. 

Correct me if I'm wrong but In Glaxico Burress's case, even if he had a loaded magazine in the gun, it shouldn't have been a problem as long as there wasn't a round in the chamber right?   I mean you should be able to pull the trigger all day as long as you haven't chambered a round, and nothing will happen, a drop, a snap with the booger picker, whatever right? 

Call me an idiot and I see why people would want to keep a round chambered at all times, but I'm only going to do that if I'm in a threatening environment.  I always treat the gun as if a round were chambered and I never drink or do drugs around weapons. 

So my question is: Is there a difference between a loaded Glock and a Glock with a chambered round.  It seems like common sense but I could be wrong.  Looking forward to my gun safety classes and going to the range, but I'm really happy with this gun and feel confident I could use it effectively in an emergency situation until then. 

Now to find the best rounds, I'll do a search in the forum for that, I'm sure there are just as many good ideas.
 

Contrary to popular internet gun forum opinions Glock pistols are far from idiot-proof.  In fact some of the finest idiots I know own Glock pistols. 

Your first mistake is saying that, 'You never put your finger on the trigger.'  Of course you do!  I've been handling firearms and teaching people how to shoot for more than 50 years.  It is humanly impossible for any gunman to keep his finger off the trigger all of the time.  If someone is actually able to say this then he simply isn't handling guns all that much.  Inadvertent trigger manipulation happens; and it happens for numerous very human reasons. 

In all the years that I've been on firing lines I've seen everything there is to see.  Consequently I do not regard any gun manufacturer's, 'trigger safety lever' as a true gun safety - An actual gun safety Glock's trigger lever is NOT.  It's an impediment to firing the pistol, and nothing more!  (The people who designed the XD series of pistols apparently agree with this assertion, as well.) 

This said, I'm glad to see that you are already familiar with Cooper's Four Firearm Safety Rules!  I suggest that you, 'burn' these rules into your very psyche, itself, so that they become personal habits instead of just memorized rules. 

I own several 3rd generation Glock pistols; (In my opinion the best pistol generation that Glock, GmbH ever produced.)  and I've carried either a G-21, or a G-19 with me everyday for the past 11 years.  Today, there are four operating conditions in which to carry a semiautomatic pistol: 

1.  C-0, this is a recently invented expression that applies specifically to striker-fired semiautomatic pistols like the Glocks.  It references the fact that striker-fired pistols retain their strikers under significant pretension - In Glock's case that pretension is described as, 'greater than 75%'!  Anyone who says that a striker-fired pistol is no different than a double-action revolver doesn't know guns; and, unfortunately, there seem to be a lot of these people on internet gun forums. 

2.  C-1, the semi-auto has a round in the chamber, with the hammer cocked, and safety on.  The pistol is either ready-to-fire, or almost ready-to-fire. 

3.  C-2, the semi-auto has a round in the chamber with the hammer either uncocked or held at half-cock.  The safety is on; but, on Series 70 (or earlier) 1911's, if a C-2 1911 pistol is dropped and lands on either end it can accidentially discharge the chambered round. 

As government tests have proven the same thing can happen with a Glock; it's just that most people don't realize it.  It's, also, possible to, 'stack' a Glock trigger bar's sear-plate against the striker lug.  In fact I've done this to several Glock pistols while I was adjusting a new connector.  This explains, 'Why' some Glock owners have posted that their Glocks have gone off unexpectedly only to, thereafter, receive numerous jeers from dozens of naive, internet gun forum, 'Glockaholics' who don't know any better. 

(Please don't anyone give me grief about Glock's SO-CALLED, 'drop safety'.  Glock's, 'drop safety' is NOT what most people think that it is.  The so-called, 'drop safety' does NOT prevent a Glock from accidentially discharging when it is dropped.  THAT is the job of  the:  trigger safety lever, compatibly balanced springs, and proper lug and sear, 'kick plate' configuration.  All Glock's so-called, 'drop safety' does is assure that a dropped Glock will be able to immediately fire again after it is picked up and promptly returned to service.  That is it!  There's nothing more!) 

Glock engineers have, also, demonstrated that they are (silently) aware of the stacking problem.  How do I know?  Back in 2012 Glock, GmbH very quietly increased the sear's, 'kick plate' angle on all of their new trigger bars; and THIS is why it's no longer possible to get a really smooth trigger on current Glock factory actions. 

(It's, also, a primary reason why I prefer to use my older 3rd generation Glocks.  I have the older trigger bars in two of them; and the newer trigger bar in my G-19.  Naturally, the G-19's trigger isn't as smooth as the triggers on my other Glocks.) 

4.  C-3,  means that there is not a chambered round in the pistol.  This is the carry condition that most frequently receives the snide accolade, 'If you haven't got a round in the chamber then your pistol is a brick.'  Who usually says this?  Lots and lots of internet gun forum members who've never been in a CQB pistol gunfight in their entire lives!  (It does sound good, though; it's just that it's not true.) 

Glock, GmbH constantly changes the user precautions as well as the instructions in their owners' manuals.  My first two owners' manuals cautioned that the right way for a civilian to carry a Glock is with an empty chamber (C-3).  The manual that came with my last Glock is silent on this subject.  (It, also, calls the, 'slide stop' a, 'slide release'; but, whatever!) 

I've carried my Glock pistols in C-3 for 90% of the time during the past 11 years.  In my own experience, knowing how to use a pistol and being well practiced are far more important than whatever condition the pistol is carried in.  (Law-enforcement is a world of its own; and I'm not going to get into law-enforcement carry now.) 

Suffice it to say that I've known any number of gunmen who were entirely competent pistol gunfighters, and had no problem, whatsoever, carrying their pistols in C-3.  Why do I like C-3 carry?  I'm a civilian.  I handle firearms, literally, all day long.  My house is full of guns; and I do not need to endanger either:  my family members, my friends, myself, or the people with whom I come into daily contact by confronting everybody else with a C-0/C-1 pistol. 

Is my pistol a brick?  I don't think anyone who's ever personally known me has thought that; in fact, I'm sure they haven't.  (Only on internet gun forums!)   ;D 

You are correct in your assessment of Plaxico Burress' accidental discharge.  All I can tell you is that Plaxico must have spent too much time on internet gun forums.  He screwed up, 'big time' with his customized Glock Model 23.  (Looking back I'm going to guess that Plaxico does, indeed, wish that his Glock was, 'a brick' on that particular night!) 

You can't pull the trigger, 'all day long' on a Glock without working the slide.  Neither should you ever dry-fire a gun while there is ammunition in the magazine.  During dry-fire exercises no ammunition should be anywhere near the gun. 

I do have an additional caveat to offer you, though:  If you're going to carry your Glock in C-3 I suggest that you practice drawing, racking the slide, indexing the muzzle, and pressing the trigger as often as possible.  Daily practice is the best way to go; and, of course, the pistol should be both empty AND chamber-checked BEFORE you begin to practice. 

A further suggestion would be for you to leave the slide stop (Glock's new, 'release') alone and exclusively use the, 'H.O.T' (hand over top) method of slide manipulation.  You can find demonstrations on YouTube.  I do a lot of this; and, as far as I'm concerned, using a Glock's slide stop as a release is best left to the, 'gun gamesmen' at GSSF and IDPA type matches.  You WILL pick up speed if you use the slide stop; BUT, this is no way to actually gunfight; AND, should the occasion ever arise, whatever way you train is going to be the exact same way that you will end up gunfighting. 

As for what pistol ammunition to use?  I used to agonize over this subject.  Today I double and triple tap (almost) every target I look at.  Consequently, I'm no longer fussy about whatever cartridge I'm using.  Even on things like steel, 'pepper popper' targets, I just keep on hitting them until they finally go down.  (Almost always on the first one or two shots!  I doubt that most people are going to be any different.) 

You seem to be off to a good start.  Good luck to you! 
'Les yeux sont le miroir de l'âme’