Author Topic: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.  (Read 45158 times)

Offline Doc K

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Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.

Not sure if anyone has seen this article or heard about this...  http://www.bmj.com/content/340/bmj.c696.full

Very interesting.  Thought this may spark some discussion.

Doc K

Offline archer

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As a parent of a child with Autism, looking back at all the hassle we went through because of this paper, I'd like to see the author drawn and quartered.

Offline Doc K

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Offline Doc K

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As a parent of a child with Autism, looking back at all the hassle we went through because of this paper, I'd like to see the author drawn and quartered.

In having to counsel parents of children with develop disorders, and try to explain that they did nothing wrong... especially when it comes to vaccines... I can understand in a small way of what you are speaking. 

It is interesting that this study did not even find a link between Vaccines and Autism, but the author's suggestion of such is what caused such a riot.
It is interesting that NO OTHER research has been able to find a link between Vaccines and Autism.

Yet you still have people listen to Jenny McCarthy (a nursing school dropout) who tells parents not to vaccinate their children.  She said at one time, "I do believe sadly it's going to take some diseases coming back to realize that we need to change and develop vaccines that are safe."  Would she say that to the parents of children who have died from diseases that could have been prevented by available vaccines?

Thanks for nothing Dr. Wakefield and Jenny McCarthy!

Doc K

Offline cohutt

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Corrupt bags of cockroach shit like Wakefield have blood on their hands.  Still, the dipsticks like McCarthy and co will somehow spin this into something that supports what they want to believe anyway...


Offline 1022

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How come a article with a sample of 12 with unreproducible results was taken as evidence in the first place?

Is it that proper ethics were not adhered to, and would that mean that the findings are invalid?

Whose other interests are at stake, and why did this take 12 years to resolve?

What role have the drug companies had in this?
« Last Edit: January 20, 2011, 07:36:11 PM by 1022 »

Offline Doc K

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How come a article with a sample of 12 with unreproducible results was taken as evidence in the first place?

Very good question.  I HAVE NO IDEA!  ;D  In reality, the medical community agreed with the findings of this paper (that there was NOT a link between the two).  It was his comments "off the record" and in interviews that truly led to the big scare.  The "evidence" was never really there, and it was not medical authorities who were buying in on it... it was the media and celebrities and conspiracy theorists.


Is it that proper ethics were not adhered to, and would that mean that the findings are invalid?
When proper ethics are not adhered to it has a number on consequences depending on what was violated.  In this case, he claimed that he took 12 consecutive patients, but he did not.  The idea of taking consecutive patients is that the research is randomized (12 random people).  In this case, he hand selected patients he thought would best fit his hypothesis.  Major ethical breach.  Second he subjected these children to invasive tests (lumbar puncture and colonoscopy) when they were not needed.  Third, he said that the research plan was approved by the ethics committee when it never was reviewed by them.
Even if his testing gave reliable results, if there is anything in it that was unethical, then the entire research needs to be thrown out.  In a similar, but far more tragic vein, this is like the Nazi doctors who performed experiments on Jews.  There may have been some information from those experiments that could be used in modern medicine, but there is no way in the world it would or should ever be accepted due to the manner in which it was obtained.  In my opinion, this is the same thing to a much lesser degree.


Whose other interests are at stake, and why did this take 12 years to resolve?  What role have the drug companies had in this?

I don't have a good reason why it took so long to track this all down.  Large research universities and facilities often have many, many projects run by many, many teams.  My guess is that everyone there thought someone else was managing oversight when no one really was.  As far as who else had interests in this:  "Dr Wakefield, 52, failed to disclose to the Lancet that his research had received funding from the Legal Aid Board through a solicitor who hoped to mount a legal action against the manufacturer and that he had also filed a patent application for a new vaccine."  So, there was a monetary reason to bring down the vaccines being currently used.



Doc K

Offline joeinwv

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It's not Dr. Wakefield anymore, it's Mr. Wakefield now. England pulled his credentials.

Offline LvsChant

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I do find this interesting. As a parent who did vaccinate her children, I have often wondered if I was exposing my children to undue risk. I had friends who did not vaccinate any of their children and who were completely opposed to all vaccinations. Some of the information I can remember reading had to do with the use of aborted fetus tissue in the manufacture of certain vaccines (sorry, my memory fails me as to the details). The fact that the number of autistic children relative to the total population seems to have risen has made me wonder just what it is that we are doing that causes it, as a society. The idea of vaccines was an easy scapegoat.

Offline surfivor

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 how many different vaccinations are given to infants ? I heard it was something like 12 .. Are you good with that ?

Hear is what the good doctor offit who was on NPR has said apparently:

http://ezinearticles.com/?How-Many-Vaccines-at-One-Time-Are-Too-Many?&id=565829

In his 2002 article published in Pediatrics,Dr. Paul Offit (1) asserts an extrapolated mathematical formula demonstrated that children can be vaccinated with thousands of vaccines without harm. "Each infant would have the theoretical capacity to respond to about 10,000 vaccines at any one time."(2)

It appears that Dr. Offit should undertake a review of human immunology. The idea that 10,000 doses of chemicals, viruses and bacterial bits could uneventfully be deposited into the blood stream of an infant or an adult without consequence defies medical logic. The direct injection of pathogens into the body bypasses the first four lines of immune defense: the skin, the mucous membranes, the intestinal lymphoid tissue and lymphatic neutralization. Unlike the claims of the pharmaceutical companies, the introduction of germs and chemicals into the blood stream does not "trick" the immune system, as claimed by doctors and researchers. It contaminates it.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 08:35:21 AM by surfivor »

Offline LvsChant

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2011, 08:35:20 AM »
There are a very large number of vaccinations given to very young children... more every year, it seems. I have read that it may be important to make sure your child is not sick with something when the vaccines are administered (there is a case of a situation where a woman with fraternal twins vaccinated both children on the exact same day for MMR, iirc, one ended up being diagnosed with autism, the other not -- the one who is autistic was sick with some virus on the day he was vaccinated, while the other was healthy). This is, of course, only anecdotal information -- no real study to prove or disprove a link.

I think it would be good sense to assure the child is healthy before administering a vaccine. Also, in hindsight, I might be less likely to allow vaccination for the more benign things (chicken pox or mumps come to mind, although I think mumps are part of the MMR vaccine now) or things they are very unlikely to have exposure to (Hepatitis). I'd probably wait until they were older for the Hep vaccines unless we were living in an area where there was a high infection rate (we weren't).

However, with the continuing influx of unvaccinated children through the illegal alien route and the number of people opting out of vaccines for other reasons, I would certainly want to protect my kids from the really deadly childhood diseases.

Offline surfivor

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2011, 09:13:20 AM »

 I'm very skeptical of this supposed study being thrown out as well as many practices in the medical profession in general. I would have to include lots of vaccines given out when at one time it was only 1 or 2 maybe

 Here is a post in tin foil section on this. There are videos on the first post and some newer ones I just added. I guess you can watch those if you like and make up your own mind ..

http://thesurvivalpodcast.com/forum/index.php?topic=23758.0

Offline AtADeadRun

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2011, 10:38:25 AM »
Oy.  We've previously discussed the efficacy of vaccines in general, here (spoiler:  I think they're a good idea, and the vast majority of the data backs up that conclusion).

Offline 1022

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2011, 10:43:17 AM »
Very good question.  I HAVE NO IDEA!  ;D  In reality, the medical community agreed with the findings of this paper (that there was NOT a link between the two).  It was his comments "off the record" and in interviews that truly led to the big scare.  The "evidence" was never really there, and it was not medical authorities who were buying in on it... it was the media and celebrities and conspiracy theorists.


OK. This is why lay people should not trust media reports of studies. IMO the people in the media are not qualified to interpret results of scientific literature, let alone critically appraise it.

Offline mamabear

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2011, 10:44:41 AM »
LVSChant, most dr's to my knowledge now-a-days will not give a child their scheduled vaccines if the child is showing any symptoms of illness. When my son when in for a check up and shots when he was little, he was a bit stuffy and had some drainage. Not really sick, just a cold. They rescheduled the shots and said they wouldn't give them to a child who was sick.

Offline surfivor

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2011, 11:24:51 AM »
I'm not sure if the pharmaceuticals would like to prevent alternative medicine, over the counter vitamins, herbs and so on.

 With all the drug side effects, GMO stuff and everything else. I'm not sure how easy it is for people to convince me I should just accept whatever vaccine safety ideas they throw at me. 

Offline cohutt

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2011, 11:54:53 AM »
who do you think owns the OTC vitamin and alternative / herbal manufacturers and distributors?

Offline surfivor

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2011, 12:41:09 PM »
who do you think owns the OTC vitamin and alternative / herbal manufacturers and distributors?

 they are making millions off of vitamin C/st johns wort the same as prozac ?

Offline NotAGrasshopper

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2011, 12:56:36 PM »
Children who don't receive vaccinations shouldn't be allowed in school.  In fact, I don't think they should be allowed out in public.

It is phenomenally unfair to everyone else to not receive vaccinations, at least for diseases that can be fatal.

No vaccine is 100% infected and for the unknown percentage of people for whom the injection *isn't* effective, their protection comes from the fact that everyone else is vaccinated.

Anyone who thinks vaccines are a pharmaceutical industry hoax is an idiot.  Offense fully intended.

Offline surfivor

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2011, 12:58:36 PM »
Children who don't receive vaccinations shouldn't be allowed in school.  In fact, I don't think they should be allowed out in public.

It is phenomenally unfair to everyone else to not receive vaccinations, at least for diseases that can be fatal.

No vaccine is 100% infected and for the unknown percentage of people for whom the injection *isn't* effective, their protection comes from the fact that everyone else is vaccinated.

Anyone who thinks vaccines are a pharmaceutical industry hoax is an idiot.  Offense fully intended.

force medicate everyone then, you have no right to decide what's best for you .. leave it up to the drug companies, they know best. Never mind reading books or looking on the internet for health advice .. just that in itself poses some possible danger ..
 
You're not an individual but a potential unknown risk who poses some possible unknown danger to society that must be evaluated by experts, statisticians, and politicians ..


I thought TSP was populated mostly with people who railed against all kinds socialism and talked about constitutional rights all the time. 

 Maybe tax penalties for people who are overweight is not such a bad idea after all ..

of course some large percentage of nurses refused to take the swine flu shots, and some doctors when asked if they took the shot refused to answer that question.




« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 01:07:51 PM by surfivor »

Offline LvsChant

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2011, 01:03:31 PM »
Notagrasshopper... please keep it civil here. Even for those who do vaccinate (me included), forced vaccinations just go against my idea of liberty.

To call anyone an idiot is not acceptable on this forum.

Offline NotAGrasshopper

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2011, 01:29:02 PM »
force medicate everyone then,

I don't support forced vaccinations at all.  I just don't want your kid around my kid if you aren't responsible or considerate enough to vaccinate them.

So to be clear on my position:  I do not think people should be forced to vaccinate, but I do not think they should be allowed in schools, daycares, summer camps, etc. if they make that *choice*. 

Offline surfivor

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2011, 01:42:49 PM »
I don't support forced vaccinations at all.  I just don't want your kid around my kid if you aren't responsible or considerate enough to vaccinate them.

So to be clear on my position:  I do not think people should be forced to vaccinate, but I do not think they should be allowed in schools, daycares, summer camps, etc. if they make that *choice*. 

 Life is full of all kinds of risks, people who stay indoors as much as possible may mitigate all known risks hopefully.


 I am not sure how one is supposed to tell what it is we need to be vaccinated against, what are all the known risks and who decides what the risks are. Is there some maximum number of shots people would eventually decide is too much ?
If they said your kid had to have 100 shots is that too much, 300 ? 500 ?
 Should vaccines be considered safe until proven otherwise or the other way around ?


 If it latter turns out they where wrong and your kid was given a dangerous shot, should you be able to collect large damages in a lawsuit and who pays for that ? If that did happen,  should we then decide lets cancel the whole school vaccination program from there on out ? Should some people high up in the drug business go to jail as a result of such a screw up ? That's not how the system works is it ? Keep a kid out of school because of his risk to society, but the risks posed by the big boys there is no protection from whatsoever. I have heard of specific laws that protect drug companies from all liabilities it seems like as well in terms of vaccinations, though I have also heard of vaccination damages funds as well as people winning lawsuits from being harmed by vaccines ..


 Should kids be given drugs for Attention Deficit ? Is there any possibility that the school curriculum is not very inspiring to lots of kids and they just can't get motivated to pay attention ? Have you ever heard that many CEO's will fall asleep at a business meeting  if it goes too long ?

« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 01:58:42 PM by surfivor »

Offline NotAGrasshopper

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2011, 02:00:11 PM »
Life is full of all kinds of risks, people who stay indoors as much as possible may mitigate all known risks hopefully.

Sure.  Some are necessary and some can be mitigated.  Vaccines have a 200+ year history of preventing diseases.

Quote
I am not sure how one is supposed to tell what it is we need to be vaccinated against, what are all the known risks and who decides what the risks are.


I think the currently recommended vaccine list (from CDC) is reasonable.  It protects against the most common diseases and in the end, isn't really all that many jabs.

Quote
Is there some maximum number of shots people would eventually decide is too much?  If they said your kid had to have 100 shots is that too much, 300 ? 500 ?

Yeah, when you're being vaccinated for things you have no reasonable risk of contracting.

Quote
Should vaccines be considered safe until proven otherwise or the other way around ?

I think if a new additive or preservative comes up to be included, it should not be considered safe until it's proven.  But the basic concept behind a vaccine is very simple and should be considered safe.  It consists of either live or attenuated virus or proteins derived from a virus. 

Look, your body is exposed to all kinds of antigens every day.  Your immune system is always under assault, probably the equivalent of hundreds of vaccinations a day.

There is no magic behind vaccinations - it's simply exposing you to the virus (or part of it) so your immune system recognizes it in the future. 

Quote
If it latter turns out they where wrong and your kid was given a dangerous shot, should you be able to collect large damages in a lawsuit and who pays for that ?


It depends on the damage.  No damage, no collection.  There is already a taxpayer fund to compensate people who get sick from the required shots.

Quote
Should kids be given drugs for Attention Deficit ? Is there any possibility that the school curriculum is not very inspiring to lots of kids and they just can't get motivated to pay attention ? Have you ever heard that many CEO's will fall asleep at a business meeting  if it goes too long ?

A bit of a straw man.  ADD is neither contagious nor deadly.  But it is very real and I have it.  I sometimes take medication for it and it works splendidly.  I only wish my parents had put me on the medicine when I was a kid because I'd be an astronaut or surgeon now.  As it turns out I was only a mediocre student - one of those typical ADD kids of whom teachers say, "He has so much potential if he would just pay attention and apply himself..."

Offline Chemsoldier

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2011, 02:01:32 PM »
I think that smart practices in the adminsitration of vaccines are at an all time high. I have never had an issue from providers on spacing out my daughter's vaccinations so she doesnt get so many in one visit.  I dont personally think that vaccines are a cause of autism but my family doesn have a history of poor reactions to certain vaccines so we try to space out the critter's vaccinations a bit.  So far it has worked out well, she has not had the reactions that some kids get where she is just wiped out for the rest of the day.

As for this guy, glad he has lost his liscense.  I hope the litigation ties him in knots for the rest of his life.  Boy when you want to talk about far reaching consequences and messing with people's lives...

-Chem

Offline surfivor

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2011, 02:14:24 PM »
 I sometimes have a hard time paying attention, but it depends on what it is .. I don't necessarily think it's a disorder. Maybe everyone is different and needs time away or some other thing to do. Maybe schools try to throw everyone in the same pot and it doesn't work %100. All kinds of drugs have various effects, but they can also have side effects as well ..
Lots of people value time to relax and not have to be paying attention to certain types of things, or they find the things they have to pay attention to may be stressfull, boring etc ..

 What if someone was there saying, "hey you, listen to what I am telling you, where going to do this, that and then we do some more of the other thing do pay attention !" but what if you don't want to pay attention ? What if you go home and work on some hobby you find interesting or read a book that you like and when you do that, you find you can pay attention just fine ? You could go for a walk in the woods and feel fine, maybe you don't have to be focused all the time on something ..

 It reminds me that I can work at a company and the managers there might try to tell you you have a problem. People you work with might seem to tell you that, but you can go out and get a book which will give you other ideas about society, what is the meaning of life, what is the value of the self etc .. You don't produce enough, you called in sick too much, you have headaches ? Must be you have a problem, the doctor will prescribe something .. (maybe you just need a vacation and the company is full of nutcases)


 The human mind and consciousness is a complex thing not well understood in many ways. I can't easily assume that you
throw a bunch of kids in a class room and they don't behave the way the adults desire (adults are just bigger kids in many ways) that then I'll assume they are damaged or something is wrong and drugs must be the answer ..

I guess the army is trying to figure out a way to erase people's memory so that if they have shell shock (post traumatic stress) they can just erase the memory which seems a little weird maybe ..


 What about mercury in the shots and other things ?

 

 I looked up vaccines on Wikipedia, it seems there are different kinds of vaccines. I'm not sure they are all for viruses. Each pathogen is different and there are potentially other things in the vaccine. I think if they are going to try to push a vaccine on some one, you should be able to take a sample right out of the batch they are giving you yourself and have it tested to see everything that is in it and have that done by some third party you can chose.

 I can only remember that I was given a smallpox vaccine and maybe tetanus and that's it. I have never had a shot for anything that I can recall in the past 15 years except maybe a tetnus shot. I never saw so much push for vaccines until last year with the swine flu which seemed to be problematic on many fronts .. I have also heard that flu vaccines can weaken your immune system. I would tend to view every vaccine as potentially different than every other and not throw them all in together ..









 
« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 02:32:06 PM by surfivor »

Offline NotAGrasshopper

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2011, 02:49:18 PM »
On the ADD, all I can say is that I've got it and drugs fix it (when I take them).  It's far more than "I can't pay attention sometimes" - it's a lifestyle of disarray, lost things, procrastination, etc.  You'll just have to trust me on this because it's me we're talking about, nobody else.

Most vaccines are for viruses but certainly not all.  Bacterial infections can be treated with antibiotics so there isn't as much need for vaccines.  They are also much harder to pass to other people by proximity or casual contact.

As for mercury...  There is no mercury in children's vaccines.  Interestingly, the autism rate has gone UP since the mercury was eliminated in 2001.  I'm certainly not suggesting a link (that would be preposterous), just noting that it's interesting.

The one vaccine your kid could get that contains mercury is the annual flu shot.  Some flu shots have it, some don't.  The FluMist does not have it.  Flu vaccine in single-dose packages does not have it.  Flu vaccine in multi-dose vials *does* have it.  You can always ask your doctor to show you the package insert - it will list all of the ingredients including mercury (as Thimerosol) if it's in there.

I'm just sort of tired of the conspiracy talk regarding vaccines.  We know for a fact that they work and I don't want to lose my three year old daughter to an easily prevented disease because some foolish jerk thinks vaccines are a mind-control conspiracy between drug companies and the government.


Offline LvsChant

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2011, 03:34:58 PM »
Other than the illegal aliens, the only folks I know who don't vaccinate are home-schooling families. As far as I know, most school districts require vaccinations for enrollment. That might be of interest to you in determining groups of high risk to avoid for the safety of your daughter.

On the other hand, since I've always homeschooled, we find that our kids get sick almost never. The sheer amount of germiness that seems to be present in group care situations may be a contributing factor, imo. I've vaccinated our kids, and never worried about them playing with homeschooled children who may not have been vaccinated. I'm thinking the main danger of infection is for the children who aren't vaccinated. I realize the shots are not 100% effective, but have not had a significant worry because of my children associating with home-schooled children.

There are many reasons people have for choosing not to vaccinate... I wouldn't assume that someone who has made a thoughtful choice not to do so is a
Quote
foolish jerk [who] thinks vaccines are a mind-control conspiracy between drug companies and the government.

I think it is hard to know (with all the various associations people have who vaccinates and who doesn't) unless you discuss it with each family. Perhaps a little friend of your child (from an association other than school, where vac's are req'd) may be unvaccinated... it isn't something we can guard against 100%. Certainly in the case of a breakout of a particular illness in a particular area, self quarantine for the safety of your family is a valid option.


Offline Patriot:Ex Machina

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #28 on: January 21, 2011, 03:45:33 PM »
Let's play nice, or we'll have to lock this down.
I don't like where this could be going.
NotAGrasshopper,
you're relatively new here, but try to be more civil when making your point.
Getting snippy is not going to win you many friends around here.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 09:56:13 PM by Patriot:Unknown »

Offline TwoBluesMama

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #29 on: January 21, 2011, 03:54:44 PM »
I just want to add as a mom of a daughter who got Guillain-Barre syndrome (and nearly died) from a DPT vaccine and was told by her pediatrician to never have her vaccinated again that perhaps there are two sides to every story.  ;)

And NotAGrasshopper I agree with Patriot.  You are certainly entitled to your opinions but not at the expense of others. Please remember that perhaps your words are not necessarily meant derogatory to others but when we only have the words to read it can certainly seem that way.  Thanks!