Author Topic: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.  (Read 45159 times)

Offline NotAGrasshopper

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #30 on: January 21, 2011, 10:15:26 PM »
Let's play nice, or we'll have to lock this down.
I don't like where this could be going. NotGrasshopper,
you're relatively new here, but try to be more civil when making your point.
Getting snippy is not going to win you many friends around here.

@Patriot:Unknown - I think this might be a case where you are inferring a 'tone' I didn't mean to imply.  I'm not feeling particularly 'snippy' at all and I certainly haven't been uncivil.  I think perhaps you are hyperfocusing on single words or phrases without giving me the benefit of reading the entirety of what I said.  I will give you an example:

I said, "We know for a fact that they work and I don't want to lose my three year old daughter to an easily prevented disease because some foolish jerk thinks vaccines are a mind-control conspiracy between drug companies and the government."

When I said that, what I meant was:  Anyone who thinks vaccines are a mind-control conspiracy between drug companies and the government and thus doesn't vaccinate their children is a foolish jerk; which interestingly, is exactly what I said.

What I did NOT say (or mean) is that someone who has a valid medical reason, based on experience (not irrational fear or Wikipedia-gained "wisdom" or a debunked medical paper hoax) who chooses not to vaccinate their child is a jerk of any sort.  

There *are* valid medical reasons to avoid certain vaccinations.  But I still don't want that kid near my daughter, because the vaccination my daughter got might only be 96% effective.  If they have it (the disease) and my daughter is in the 4% whose vaccination didn't 'take', she has a 4% chance of being sick or dead because of them.  No thanks. Her chances with another vaccinated kid would be 0.016%, a HUGE decrease due solely to the fact that the other kid's parents bothered to get them vaccinated.

If anyone thinks I'm being uncivil then the folks on this forum are a whole lot more thin-skinned than I though they'd be.  In fact, so thin-skinned that I'm not even sure why they're prepping for anything.  If anything happens they'll probably just cry.  That might have been a little uncivil.


« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 10:22:13 PM by NotAGrasshopper »

Offline surfivor

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #31 on: January 22, 2011, 12:35:06 AM »
 be careful on arguing with the mods, life is not always fair, they run this site in many ways ..

 How common is death caused by not being vaccinated anyway ? I have been around for almost 50 years and never heard of a problem of that sort in recent history.

 Do child vaccines have adjuvants ? What is the history of child vaccines ?

 The history of vaccines and diseases is something I'd like to know more about. My impression is that vaccines where done in more limited ways. People where vaccinated once for a very few specific things. They where not vaccinated over and over again. Even there, I couldn't say that there are no possible side effects from a one time vaccine.

  Nowadays I go to CVS and all I hear is ads played on the intercom 24/7 like "get vaccinated, take your shots today !". Signs out front say "flu shots available here 24/7 !" . They are saying take a flu shot every single year, maybe 2 or 3 a year, who knows. That is something I have never seen the likes of and like I said if shots are obviously a good idea that only dumb people question, then why do many nurses refuse them and doctors won't always talk about whether they are taking them ..

 Bio war fare has been around along time too I guess. I used to camp in Port Joli Nova Scotia when hurricanes where out in the Atlantic churning up swell. The large bay there in a very quiet spot on the ocean and not far from some cool surf spots. In this bay was where a massive encampment of Mic Mac indians used to summer and hunt for seals, walrus, fish, and dig for clams. I found huge piles of sea shells where they left the remains from the food gatherings along the shore there in the woods. This was one of the largest Indian encampments in all of North America in terms of sheer numbers of Indians. The British or whatever white people lived in the area had some ship where everyone died of small pox or something. They sent the ship over to the Indians loaded with cloths for them. some 90% or more of those Indians all died of small pox from that episode ..

 Does that sound crazy, irrelevant, or far fetched ? Well, there are hundreds of advanced bio weapons labs all over the USA. The govt is out there trying to recreate the most dangerous and deadly viruses they can come up with and spending millions on that. The anthrax mailed to congress after 9/11 was traced to a US weapons lab.

 They had to go up to Alaska and dig up eskimo corpses to get the old spanish flu virus that killed all those people. I'm sure it's for our own good, don't try to question it or find out anything from the govt, I'm sure it's highly classified and your not allowed to know .. Could some of these viruses get out by mistake ? An accident ?

 Jack Spirko firmly says he's no conspiracy theorists, and his wife is a nurse. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure he said that the recent swine flu could have been created in a lab and it accidentally got out .. Maybe because it was unusual for a pig/human/bird virus to just happen that way or for some other reason, not sure ..






 Is it any coincidence that ticks where studied at a weapons lab in long island, just 9 miles across the water on the migratory bird route from lyme CT where lyme disease first appeared and close to the area where nile virus started ?  That lab apparently had all kinds of safety problems, lost vials of viruses floating around, stolen virus packs, viruses found in a van someplace, shipped through UPS, ticks escaping out of holes in the walls of the buildings. Reportedly a former nazi scientist Dr. Eric Traub, an expert in bio weapons was employed by the US govt at this weapons lab. The US has employed numerous nazi scientists experts of all sorts for rocketry and so on as well. Ticks where studied by Japanese in WWII for bio weapons also and I believe tick experiments where done on prisoners of war. The US govt was trying to invent viruses they thought they where going to release into Russia apparently or that was the claim.

 So there may be a fear of a new pandemic, increasingly dangerous pathogens, but it's crazy to think just because the govt is working hard to invent and perfect new diseases that there could be any possible connection, risk of release into public etc. No health professional, talking head, journalist would ever question that either .. just too scary I guess to question the govt/military/pharmaceutical industrial complex ..

 
 Then there's the GMO issue, Jack Spirko is constantly talking about how the food industry is poisoning us and constantly trying to invent glow in the dark pigs, half tomato fish hybrids, strange alien like salmon .. Don't eat any corn, stay away from canola oils, yep those experts and scientists sure got it together ..






 
 
 
« Last Edit: January 22, 2011, 01:29:37 AM by surfivor »

Offline cohutt

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #32 on: January 22, 2011, 07:23:24 AM »
Some history of the Wakefield expose:

http://briandeer.com/mmr-lancet.htm

surfivor, the reason you haven't heard much in the way of deaths from NOT receiving vaccines is that for years the programs have been largely effective in eliminating the formerly epic childhood diseases from the population.  "Herd immunity" is what makes a the vaccine programs effective, ie the collective prevention among individuals eventually reduces the number of cases and the likelihood of those cases spreading to others in the population.  fewer cases and lower likelihood that the exposure of these cases will be to susceptible individuals (ie un-vaccinated).
pertussis is a good example - whooping cough. 
To my generation and younger (I am 50) whooping cough is just a funny sounding disease that maybe our grandparents mentioned along the way but something that we don't know first hand examples of.  The reality was that it killed 30-50,000 children a year in the US before the immunization programs started. At the low,  less that 50 deaths were attributed it.

If it is was gone, why continue immunizations?
It was effectively controlled but has been showing up more due to (my summation and opinion) 1- immigrant children who have not been vaccinated yet and 2) anti-vac movement due to fears of side effects and disinformation spread by Wakefield type idiots like "Dr Bob" Sears 3) general lack of concern, ie "it isn't around so why does my child need it".

Well, it isn't gone.

Here is an example of what starts to happen when the genie gets out of the bottle again:
http://genome.fieldofscience.com/2010/10/whooping-cough-in-california-deaths.html


So as a parent, it is my choice and it would have no effect on any other child right?
Not exactly.  In the case of pertussis, there is a window for newborns before they are old enough for the vaccine where they are susceptible to exposure and can contract it.   If only 1 in 2 million children have it this isn't likely; if it starts to make any sort of comeback in the population at large then it is statistically significant chance of exposure that rises very quickly.  in other words it does "spread like a virus".

The trap we all fall into is the vaccines are preventative in nature and when administered over the bulk of the population, the risk and the horrible effects of the prevented diseases are out of sight and mind, something in the history books.  We all let our guard down and consider these to relics, gone forever, but they are not.

Not a simple subject.  The paradox is that for vaccines to work on the individual level they really have to be taken with the understanding that they are for "the good of the team" as well, and we have to have faith that the whole population will appraoch it this way as well.   hence the government involvment.

I for one support the programs.  I've worked on immunization projects targeting polio in the 3rd world, and the horror is still out there, we are just insulated from it here in the US.  That is ware are currently insulated from the horror due to the success of the immunization programs. we weren't always and we won't always if the programs don't continue. 

My 2 cents....

Offline Doc K

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #33 on: January 22, 2011, 07:27:03 AM »
You brought up a lot of good questions.  Some I may have some answers, and some I don't.

How common is death caused by not being vaccinated anyway ? I have been around for almost 50 years and never heard of a problem of that sort in recent history.

In the U.S., it is very rare.  The reason given is that most Americans are vaccinated.  In other areas of the world, vaccine-preventable diseases still cause a lot of death.  For instance, pertussis is routinely vaccinated for in the U.S. and only a handful of people die from this each year in the U.S.  In the rest of the world, over 300,000 people die each year from pertussis.  There is also a rise in deaths from measles in the U.K. that I believe is not coincidentally related to the vaccine scare and fewer people getting vaccines.

My impression is that vaccines where done in more limited ways. People where vaccinated once for a very few specific things. They where not vaccinated over and over again.

That is correct.  The reason for the additional vaccines for the same thing (a.k.a. "boosters") are because we have realized that some vacccines only create immunity that lasts for a shorter period of time than a persons lives.  For instance, tetanus.  Tetanus vaccines only cause immunity to the bacteria Clostridium tetani for about 10-12 years.  This is why tetanus booster vaccines are recommended every 10 years (or sooner if you have a really big injury).  BTW - if you are still surfing, I would make sure you have your tetanus

Nowadays I go to CVS and all I hear is ads played on the intercom 24/7 like "get vaccinated, take your shots today !". Signs out front say "flu shots available here 24/7 !" . They are saying take a flu shot every single year, maybe 2 or 3 a year, who knows. That is something I have never seen the likes of and like I said if shots are obviously a good idea that only dumb people question, then why do many nurses refuse them and doctors won't always talk about whether they are taking them ..

First, there are not that many nurses and doctors who do not take vaccines because they don't believe int hem or are scared of them or what have you.  Most medical professionals who do not take them are avoiding them because of allergies or other medical reasons.  Of course there are some who refuse (and I am sure there is someone who is going to read this that knows "hundreds" of medical professionals who refuse...), but in reality, that number is much lower than you think.  The VAST MAJORITY of people who refuse to take vaccines DO NOT HAVE ANY MEDICAL TRAINING, and obtain all their information about very complex medical topics, from the internet.  They have NO IDEA how to critically examine a research article (if they can even understand more than 1/3 of it).  This is not meant to be insulting.  But I find it very ironic when I have patients who have a high school education or a BA, and they feel like, no they KNOW, that they understand science and medicine more than a person with over a decade of education in science and medicine - just because they read a few articles on the internet.  I am not saying this because I am offended when someone doesn't want to listen to me.  I don't care.  I am bothered when people are making medical decision for themselves (and their children) based on almost no good reason.

Okay, moving off that . :) 

Flu vaccines do need to be done yearly.  Why?  Because each year more and more influenza viruses are mutating into existence.  Each year there is a new vaccine that is used to prevent the three viruses that researchers believe will be the most contagious and deadly.  The problem last year with the swine flu was that the swine flu popped up after the vaccines were already made.  This is not new.  A few years ago, the researchers guessed wrong.  Most people who got the flu got this one strain of influenza virus that the researchers thought was not going to be a big player.  Thousands of people got really sick.  Fortunately, it was not nearly as deadly as the swine flu.  That is why they did not create a rush vaccine for it... they just let it run its course.

The other reason there has been such a big push for yearly flu vaccinations is that more and more researchers and medical professionals (me included) think it is just a matter of time before there is a major flu pandemic.  The gov't went WAY overboard with the swine flu, and unfortunately I think there will be some "sky is falling" consequenses to that in the future.


Well, there are hundreds of advanced bio weapons labs all over the USA. The govt is out there trying to recreate the most dangerous and deadly viruses they can come up with and spending millions on that. The anthrax mailed to congress after 9/11 was traced to a US weapons lab.

I think that may be a bit of an exaggeration.  "Hundreds" implies at least 200.  That would mean there is on average 4 bio-weapons labs per state in the U.S.  I am not buying that one. :)

And, yes, the anthrax was traced to a U.S. lab.  You can read about it here on the Wikipedia article.  And yes, I think it is very convenient that the sole suspect committed suicide.  Now that DOES sound like a cover-up.


Jack Spirko firmly says he's no conspiracy theorists, and his wife is a nurse. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure he said that the recent swine flu could have been created in a lab and it accidentally got out .. Maybe because it was unusual for a pig/human/bird virus to just happen that way or for some other reason, not sure ..

I think I saw a little foil slipping out from under Jack's cap on that day.  :)

Okay, I am tired from typing.  That is enough for now.

Doc K

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #34 on: January 22, 2011, 07:30:31 AM »

Cohutt,

Looks like we were typing at the same time.  I agree entirely with what you just said.

Doc K

Offline NotAGrasshopper

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #35 on: January 22, 2011, 09:24:39 AM »
Quote
How common is death caused by not being vaccinated anyway ? I have been around for almost 50 years and never heard of a problem of that sort in recent history.

Not terribly common in the western world because most people get vaccinated and those that don't are protected by the fact that they are surrounded by vaccinated people (I.e., they ride the coattails of others - or freeload, depending on your outlook - I'm sure you can guess mine).

In areas where people don't get vaccinated they're dropping like flies.

On the 1918 flu in labs:  Go read The Demon in the Freezer. It's nonfiction and terrifying.

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #36 on: January 22, 2011, 09:53:31 AM »
@Patriot:Unknown - I think this might be a case where you are inferring a 'tone' I didn't mean to imply.  I'm not feeling particularly 'snippy' at all and I certainly haven't been uncivil.  I think perhaps you are hyperfocusing on single words or phrases without giving me the benefit of reading the entirety of what I said.  I will give you an example:

I said, "We know for a fact that they work and I don't want to lose my three year old daughter to an easily prevented disease because some foolish jerk thinks vaccines are a mind-control conspiracy between drug companies and the government."

When I said that, what I meant was:  Anyone who thinks vaccines are a mind-control conspiracy between drug companies and the government and thus doesn't vaccinate their children is a foolish jerk; which interestingly, is exactly what I said.

What I did NOT say (or mean) is that someone who has a valid medical reason, based on experience (not irrational fear or Wikipedia-gained "wisdom" or a debunked medical paper hoax) who chooses not to vaccinate their child is a jerk of any sort.  

There *are* valid medical reasons to avoid certain vaccinations.  But I still don't want that kid near my daughter, because the vaccination my daughter got might only be 96% effective.  If they have it (the disease) and my daughter is in the 4% whose vaccination didn't 'take', she has a 4% chance of being sick or dead because of them.  No thanks. Her chances with another vaccinated kid would be 0.016%, a HUGE decrease due solely to the fact that the other kid's parents bothered to get them vaccinated.

If anyone thinks I'm being uncivil then the folks on this forum are a whole lot more thin-skinned than I though they'd be.  In fact, so thin-skinned that I'm not even sure why they're prepping for anything.  If anything happens they'll probably just cry.  That might have been a little uncivil.


Using disrespectful language and back talking the management is not tolerated on this forum.
I have issued a 3 day ban and management will be considering if it will be a permanent ban or if it will stand as 3 days.

Offline Patriot:Ex Machina

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #37 on: January 22, 2011, 10:28:37 AM »
And the Hammer falls....

Offline surfivor

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #38 on: January 22, 2011, 12:11:53 PM »
 So I am reading what you guys are saying .. it probably is a complex subject, but I am not sure the effects of being vaccinated every year are well known for one. Every disease and so on is different ..

 The number of vaccinations has gone up from 3 to 22 as well apparently ..

NotAGrassHopper had said autism rates went up when mercury was removed from vaccines. I tried to find some articles with google search: "mercury removed from child vaccines" and I found this one which claims the opposite that autism rates went down:
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/38784.php

 Some other articles it wasn't really clear that all shots had mercury removed etc .. also that there are different kinds of autism and so on and that in itself is complex ..

  There was a push to try to force nurses to be vaccinated against swine flu last year and many refused. There was lawsuits in NY on that against the state by the nurses, they where out picketing and holding signs in Albany. When stuff like that happens, I start to take notice. Our state contemplated quarantine type laws and such .. A guy I work with said his doctor would not take the shot and advised him against it. I really don't like the idea of being vaccinated every year or the threat of having to be vaccinated and thus far remain very skeptical on that front ..

    
I did hear somewhere that there are several bio weapons labs in every state. I am trying to remember where I heard that.   Fort Dettirck MD is apparently a massive bio weapons complex ..

Here is an article I did find which sounds disturbing saying that bio weapons funding increased from 690 million per year in 2001 to 5.4 billion in FY 2008, with a total 50 billion up to 2009. These programs are largely unsupervised and not known about by congress, they are not well managed with accidents occurring  and what ever else .. it further states that pathogens are more likely to escape from these labs by accident than to be caused by terrorist attacks etc and I guess that has already happened in many cases and who knows what else we don't know about.  

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=14568

...


And with the September 11 and anthrax attacks as a pretext, the United States embarked on a systematic and reckless program to expand research into the creation of prohibited weapons systems. Along with renewed interest in these dodgy projects, now euphemistically dubbed "biodefense" to avoid breaching the BWC, came a huge increase in funding as new facilities are built and older ones "upgraded." A May 2009 report by the Congressional Research Service (CRS) estimates that overall government spending has "increased from $690 million in FY2001 to $5.4 billion in FY2008."

According to the Washington D.C.-based Center for Arms Control and Non-Proliferation since the 2001 terrorist attacks "the U.S. government has spent or allocated nearly $50 billion among 11 federal departments and agencies to address the threat of biological weapons. For Fiscal Year 2009 (FY2009), the Bush Administration proposes an additional $8.97 billion in bioweapons-related spending, approximately $2.5 billion (39%) more than the amount that Congress appropriated for FY2008."

The bulk of these funds according to the Center have gone to the Department of Health and Human Services' Biomedical Advanced Research and Development Authority, or BARDA ($31.5 billion), the Defense Department ($11.8 billion), Department of Homeland Security ($3.3 billion) and Project BioShield ($5.5 billion).

Yet according to numerous studies, deadly pathogens are far more likely to spread like wildfire as the result of a laboratory accident than an attack by germ-wielding terrorists. As I write, labs with Biosafety Level 3 (BSL-3) and Biosafety Level 4 (BSL-4) facilities are sprouting up like poisonous mushrooms across the United States.

A BSL-3 lab designation means that a facility is equipped to handle indigenous or exotic agents that may cause serious or potentially lethal disease after inhalation. Examples of substances handled by a BSL-3 lab include tuberculosis, anthrax, West Nile virus, SARS, salmonella, and yellow fever.

On the other hand, a BSL-4 lab handles the most deadly pathogens known to humankind; in other words, aerosol-transmitted infectious agents that cause fatal diseases for which no known treatments are available. Examples of substances handled by a BSL-4 lab include: Marburg virus, Ebola virus, Lassa fever and Crimean-Congo hemorrhagic fever.

CRS researchers reported that "Non-federal entities have also expanded or constructed additional high-containment laboratories. In addition to the threat of bioterrorism, an increasing awareness of the threat posed by emerging and re-emerging diseases has led to the proliferation of high-containment laboratories internationally, as the technologies used are widely available."

Shockingly, CRS was unable to determine the exact number of BSL-3 laboratories currently operating in America. However Congress' research arm said that "the total amount of planned or existent BSL-4 space in the United States has increased by an estimated twelve-fold since 2004."

Much of this work, conveniently, is being contracted out to private corporations with little or no effective oversight. Among the more prominent firms to have received the federal government's largesse for BSL-3 and BSL-4 work according to CRS, one finds the "Lovelace Respiratory Research Institute, Battelle Memorial Institute, Southern Research Institute, and others." Indeed, much can be hidden here, including outsourced secret weapons research, under the rubric of "proprietary information" and "intellectual property" of course!

During 2007 hearings before Congress' Committee on Energy and Commerce's Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigations, committee Chairman Rep. Bart Stupak (D-MI) said:

    These BSL–3 and 4 labs are the facilities where research is conducted on highly infectious viruses and bacteria that can cause injury or death. Some of the world's most exotic and most dangerous diseases are handled at BSL–3 and 4 labs, including anthrax, foot-and-mouth disease and Ebola fever. The accidental or deliberate release of some of the biological agents handled at these labs could have catastrophic consequences. Yet, as we will hear from the Government Accountability Office, GAO, no single Government agency has the ultimate responsibility for ensuring the safety and securing of these high-containment labs. However, GAO states there is a major expansion of the number of BSL laboratories is occurring both in United States and abroad but the full extent of that expansion is unknown. ("Germs, Viruses and Secrets: The Silent Proliferation of Bio-Laboratories in the United States," Hearing Before the Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigations of the Committee on Energy and Commerce, U.S. House of Representatives, October 4, 2007, Serial No. 110-70, pp. 1-2)


The hearings revealed that no one "in the Federal Government even knows for sure how many of these labs there are in the United States, much less what research they are doing or whether they are safe and secure." Neither "safe" nor "secure" such facilities however, are highly profitable.

During 2007 alone, some 100 "incidents" were reported; however, "there are indications that the actual number of incidents may be much higher," according to Rep. Stupak. Reporting guidelines are so lax that dangerous pathogens such as hantavirus, SARS and dengue fever "are not on the select agent list" nor are there requirements "that the theft, loss or release of these agents ... be reported to Federal officials."

According to Edward Hammond, director of the now-defunct Sunshine Project, some 20,000 people working at more than 400 sites in the U.S. conduct research on organisms that can be used as bioweapons. This represents a tenfold increase in employment at such facilities since the 2001 anthrax attacks.

Using the Freedom of Information Act to pry data from the federal government, Hammond obtained records from a score of university biosafety committees. What he discovered was disturbing to say the least. Plague, anthrax, Rocky Mountain spotted fever, tularemia, brucellosis and Q fever; these are some of the deadly pathogens that escaped containment through poor safety practices and resulted in the inadvertent sickening of lab workers.

Scientists have warned for years that the more people who handle these toxic substances, the higher the probability that mishaps will occur. Among the more well-publicized incidents, Hammond reported the following:

    * Texas A&M University: workers were exposed to Q fever when it escaped containment;
    * University of New Mexico: one worker was jabbed with an anthrax-laden needle while another was stuck with a syringe filled with an undisclosed, genetically altered microbe;
    * University of Ohio Medical Center: workers are exposed to and infected with Valley Fever;
    * University of Chicago: a syringe puncture of a lab worker with an undisclosed substance that required heavy containment, most likely anthrax or plague;
    * University of California at Berkeley: workers handled the air-borne toxin Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever without containment. It had been mislabeled as "harmless".


More recently, Global Security Newswire reported in June that an inventory at the U.S. Army Medical Research Institute of Infectious Diseases (USAMRIID) at Fort Detrick, Md., "found nearly 10,000 more vials of potentially lethal pathogens than were known to be stored at the site."

Claiming that there are "multiple layers of security," Ft. Detrick's deputy commander Col. Mark Kortepeter said it was "extremely unlikely" that any of the center's samples had been smuggled out. "Unlikely," but not impossible.

Amongst the 9,200 extra samples uncovered during the inventory were "bacterial agents that cause plague, anthrax and tularemia; Venezuelan, Eastern and Western equine encephalitis viruses; Rift valley fever virus; Junin virus; Ebola virus; and botulinum neurotoxins." So much for a "culture of safety"!

Any one of these pathogens should they escape or made to "disappear," could be transformed into a doomsday weapon.

Designer Genes, Designer Weapons

In Emerging Technologies: Genetic Engineering and Biological Weapons, researcher Edward Hammond described how "Genetic engineering can contribute to offensive BW programs in a variety of ways. With genetic manipulation, classical biowarfare agents such as anthrax or plague may be made more efficient weapons. Barriers to access to agents such as smallpox, Ebola or the Spanish flu are being lowered by genetic and genomic techniques."

No longer the province of science fiction, recombinant DNA research is being exploited by enterprising corporate grifters for decidedly sinister purposes. Hammond writes that while "access to highly virulent agents and strains is increasingly regulated and restricted," with lethal toxins such as the smallpox virus "eradicated outside the laboratory more than 20 years ago ... it is only a question of time before the artificial synthesis of agents or agent combinations becomes possible."

The available evidence suggests such work, alarmingly, is advancing at a rapid rate.

<article continues - check link above to read more>


EDIT: Article info and copyright added below to comply with Global Research cross-posting requirements:

America's Expansive Bioweapons Industrial Complex

by Tom Burghardt

© Copyright Tom Burghardt, Antifascist Calling..., 2009


 
« Last Edit: January 22, 2011, 12:35:56 PM by Mr. Bill »

Offline Patriot:Ex Machina

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #39 on: January 22, 2011, 12:35:42 PM »
Interestingly,
I agreed with some of the points that NotAGrasshopper was driving at, but there WILL be civil discourse on this forum. You can't make your point without being snippy and rude? You leave. Plain and simple.
Done on this subject.

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #40 on: January 22, 2011, 12:55:16 PM »
Interestingly,
I agreed with some of the points that NotAGrasshopper was driving at, but there WILL be civil discourse on this forum. You can't make your point without being snippy and rude? You leave. Plain and simple.
Done on this subject.

 I used to debate on AOL and usenet more years ago, it can get pretty heated and nasty so having a way to throttle back on that does seem to have some advantages ..

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #41 on: January 22, 2011, 02:00:34 PM »
Agreed. As mods, it is not so much whether we agree with the points a member is making, but the manner in which they address others. When we uphold the standards of civility, it makes more members feel welcome in stating their point of view.

As for the topic at hand, while we obviously have vaccinated our children using the recommended shot schedules, I think we do have to put a bit of effort into thinking carefully about whether or not the recommendations are correct for our kids.

But, that being said, despite my lack of trust in government mandates, the fact that the guy in question basically lied about his "research" and ended up convincing many thousands of people that they should not vaccinate their children is despicable. I have no respect for supposed scientists who try to make their data match their predetermined conclusions. The data must speak for itself. At this point, even if there is some link discovered in future studies, any true scientist will have a more difficult time convincing others of the proof of his case because of this person's actions.

Now, as for annual flu shots... only my husband gets them (he is required to receive them as a member of the military). We almost never get the flu, perhaps due to our lessened exposure since the kids are homeschooled and don't consider ourselves in a high-risk category. If, however, any member of our family was at high-risk for complications related to the flu, we would all receive them to lessen the chance of that person getting it. When my oldest was an infant, I was working at a manufacturing plant and had a much higher chance of exposure than a stay-at-home mom would have. At that time, I received the flu shot to try to lessen the chance that my baby would get it. I was not so afraid of getting the flu for myself, but was more concerned about my child.

As a teenager, before I was setting off to the Philippines as an exchange student in the 70's, I can remember the amazing number of additional shots I received before going there... cholera, typhus, typhoid, yellow fever... I was thankful for the existence of those shots, knowing that I had a much higher probability of exposure over there. I wouldn't hesitate to be vaccinated again if I were going to a location known for problems with a particular disease.


Offline surfivor

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #42 on: January 22, 2011, 02:26:20 PM »

 That guy Wakefield is not backing down on his study claiming the connection with autism and refutes claims of the other side ..


 I don't really see in layman's terms what the issue is other than he lost his license, the medical journal claims he was a fraud. The substance of the fraud does not seem to be substantive, irrefutable, detailed etc and it may be that the media/govt is fraudulent in their claims .. 

Offline BerserkerPrime

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #43 on: January 22, 2011, 02:27:38 PM »
Another little take on this subject.  

I'm retired from 20+ years in the Air Force and have had every shot known to man...some several times.  

My wife work for Veterans Affairs and is privy to (no we never discuss specific cases or personal information) trends in disease amongst our veterans.   Interestingly the rates of Parkinson’s disease and MS are higher than the national averages and climbing in vets from all services.  We all had different missions, duty dates, locations, environments, etc, so what was the commonality of our service? VACCINES.  I’m not a scientist, but we in the law enforcement world call this a clue.  

That being said, I refuse to get any more, period.  

When gearing up for the first Gulf War, we were giving crap that I can’t prove was deadly, but it sure made a hell of a lot of folks sick, long term.  I have personally known troops that were separated because they could no longer function in a normal capacity.  I know you number crunchers will tell me that there is always a minor percentage that has adverse effects, yadda yadda, but I’ve seen too many to ever convince me that vaccines aren’t overwhelmingly dangerous.  

Every year during my check up at the VA, the first thing that the nurse asks me is “did you get your flu shot?”.  “No, and after 20 years of getting them, I won’t” is always my answer.  This year she told me that the doctor may have something to say about it, and then quietly, she said “I don’t blame you.”   Hmmm.  

That being said, I know vaccines have saved millions of lives and I get that.  I just think that they (government, through pressure from drug industry) are pushing more and more vaccines that are harming us and our children. Like penicillin, it's been over used to the point of having the opposite effects than intended.  

I also believe that disease is a natural tool for culling the genetically weak from the herd, but that is for a different thread! :o

Offline surfivor

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #44 on: January 22, 2011, 02:30:53 PM »
Now, as for annual flu shots... only my husband gets them (he is required to receive them as a member of the military). We almost never get the flu, perhaps due to our lessened exposure since the kids are homeschooled and don't consider ourselves in a high-risk category. If, however, any member of our family was at high-risk for complications related to the flu, we would all receive them to lessen the chance of that person getting it. When my oldest was an infant, I was working at a manufacturing plant and had a much higher chance of exposure than a stay-at-home mom would have. At that time, I received the flu shot to try to lessen the chance that my baby would get it. I was not so afraid of getting the flu for myself, but was more concerned about my child.



 Why do others need annual flu shots ? Their life is not at real risk. If they get the flu, stay home and get better. Most of the flu I have had was nothing dangerous ..

 I sometimes think if we don't have time in life to be sick, maybe we are living too fast ..
being sick is not always fun, but it can give you time to rest, read, do other things ..



Offline LvsChant

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #45 on: January 22, 2011, 02:38:17 PM »
BP, I remember there being a great deal of concern about the anthrax vaccine that was given to the military (is my memory correct?).

I, too, have heard similar stories to yours about the shots given to our troops. I have, on occasion, wondered if they use our troops as guinea pigs for the general populace...

Offline surfivor

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #46 on: January 22, 2011, 02:40:41 PM »
Another little take on this subject.  

I'm retired from 20+ years in the Air Force and have had every shot known to man...some several times.  

My wife work for Veterans Affairs and is privy to (no we never discuss specific cases or personal information) trends in disease amongst our veterans.   Interestingly the rates of Parkinson’s disease and MS are higher than the national averages and climbing in vets from all services.  We all had different missions, duty dates, locations, environments, etc, so what was the commonality of our service? VACCINES.  I’m not a scientist, but we in the law enforcement world call this a clue.  

That being said, I refuse to get any more, period.  

When gearing up for the first Gulf War, we were giving crap that I can’t prove was deadly, but it sure made a hell of a lot of folks sick, long term.  I have personally known troops that were separated because they could no longer function in a normal capacity.  I know you number crunchers will tell me that there is always a minor percentage that has adverse effects, yadda yadda, but I’ve seen too many to ever convince me that vaccines aren’t overwhelmingly dangerous.  

Every year during my check up at the VA, the first thing that the nurse asks me is “did you get your flu shot?”.  “No, and after 20 years of getting them, I won’t” is always my answer.  This year she told me that the doctor may have something to say about it, and then quietly, she said “I don’t blame you.”   Hmmm.  

That being said, I know vaccines have saved millions of lives and I get that.  I just think that they (government, through pressure from drug industry) are pushing more and more vaccines that are harming us and our children. Like penicillin, it's been over used to the point of having the opposite effects than intended.  

I also believe that disease is a natural tool for culling the genetically weak from the herd, but that is for a different thread! :o


 I hear all kinds of stories and stuff like this. I know someone who says her grandmother got a boil and dropped dead right after a flu shot given to her in the 1970's.

 First hand stuff like that keeps me skeptical ..


Offline BerserkerPrime

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #47 on: January 22, 2011, 03:05:28 PM »
  First hand stuff like that keeps me skeptical ..

Right on.  For me its the totality of the numbers bulstered by personal experiences.  One of my troops reacted badly to the anthrax shots (several over several weeks) and is now incontinent and has MS like symptoms.  She is a pretty young lady who was fine before the shots.  Maybe she was allergic or had a pre-existing disease, but again, she's not the only one I've seen. 

Anyway, I'll take my changes with good diet, exercise and good hygiene, thank you very much!

Offline The Sage of Monticello

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #48 on: January 22, 2011, 04:43:00 PM »
Being a parent of an Autistic child, my wife and I watched our child use several word sentences at age 2, display normal eye-contact, crawling, walking at 10.5 months all within normal guidelines. After taking multiple vaccines shots my child started to regress in speech, using one word and then no speech at all with no eye contact.  This is a personal and devastating tragedy on my family that will impact us the rest of our lives.

My wife and I are firm believers that vaccines are linked to Autism. If I could have done it all over again I would have delayed the vaccines until my child was older maybe at 5-6 years old when his system could handle the vaccines, home school, and space the vaccines out with greater time between them, or reject some of the vaccines all together.

If there were ever scientific studies allowed to stand in the media as accurate proof, Big Pharma would lose trillions of dollars in lawsuits by every parent in the nation with children diagnosed with Autism. Therefore, I do not trust the scientists who attack links between Autism and vaccines. We all have seen how scientists produce false reports to justify agendas like global warming, etc. So it should not surprise anyone why any Autism links to vaccines would also fall prey to corruption and fuzzy science.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I respect that. As a parent I feel the need to voice my opinion on this topic and believe the link between vaccines and Autism are real.

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #49 on: January 22, 2011, 04:45:47 PM »
Note: There was more mercury in a can of tuna than the vaccines back when they were raising hell about it.

Personally I'll keep getting vaccinated.

Cognitive bias makes for us humans to only recall the rare exceptions to "the norm" and build that into our beliefs regarding any subject.   It is a normal trait.  The evidence showing immunizations and vaccination programs to be successful is significant and involves bazillions of individual vaccinations administered.  Stuff does go wrong on occasion as it does with any other medical procedure or treatment.  I acknowledge there is a risk but it is minuscule when compared to the benefit to me as an individual and the population at large.  

Do we really want a world where hideous PREVENTABLE diseases like polio, smallpox and pertussis rule the roost again?  If we stop immunizations as a standard practice targeted to the entire population we will have that world.  Talk to someone in their 80s about their childhood memory of polio and the legitimate fear that all children had prior to immunizations.  

In the case of medicine and more specifically vaccinations, I'll continue to participate.

Note: I have no clue about anthrax vaccines and don't include them in the broader group I reference above.  




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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #50 on: January 22, 2011, 04:55:02 PM »
As I noted before I am also a parent of a child living within the autism spectrum.    My own belief is that my child's issues have nothing to do with vaccinations.   

A-F, regardless of our differing opinions on this I'm sympathetic to you and you spouse.   I know all too well how difficult it is and the how diagnosis brings burden of uncertainty that we as parents will take to our graves.   MY wife and I have been encouraged by my son's efforts in developing coping skills but it doesn't relieve any of the burden of concern for his future "on his own", especially after we are dead and gone.

Offline JGreene

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #51 on: January 22, 2011, 06:32:54 PM »
Personally I don't think it has anything to do directly with vaccines.  I too have a child (well, not a child anymore, a young adult) who was diagnosed with an autism spectrum disorder.  I wish there was something we could point at to say yes THAT was it and prevent it, but I don't believe there is. 

There are a lot of things different about people nowadays that we never heard of (not saying they didn't exist, and I don't know if they where diagnosed as such back in the day) 30 years ago.  All the weird allergies and such... don't know.

Offline BerserkerPrime

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #52 on: January 22, 2011, 07:24:25 PM »
OK, this freaks me out.  As a few of you were posting about autism issues with your children, the google add at the top right of the screen was advertising autism learning resources. 

Does it bother anyone else that the advertisers are picking up on what where talking about and posting adds reflecting our discussion topics in near real time? 

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #53 on: January 22, 2011, 07:35:11 PM »
(the magic of Google bot fed dynamic advertising. )

Offline BerserkerPrime

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #54 on: January 22, 2011, 07:41:04 PM »
Damn...freaks me out. 

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #55 on: January 22, 2011, 09:48:56 PM »
(the magic of Google bot fed dynamic advertising. )

Yeah -- I apologize to anyone who gets hit with an offensively-inappropriate ad.  We're working on fine-tuning those, but they're supposed to be context-sensitive, so you will occasionally see freak-out stuff.  I don't think the actual advertisers see what we're discussing.  It's all handled by keyword matching in some computer at Google.

Offline AtADeadRun

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #56 on: January 22, 2011, 10:10:34 PM »
I've had the anthrax vax, as did every other person in our crew of 1100.  For that matter, all the Marines got it, too, another 2500 or so.  Almost everyone got the smallpox vax on that cruise, too; I was among the fifty or so that had possible aggravating risk factors (dermatitis, in my case) and therefore didn't get it.  We all got yearly flu shots; that's another 5000 jabs.  In that set of over 10,000 vaccinations, how many serious adverse reactions did we have?  None.  Why?  Because serious adverse reactions, if you look at the literature, are exceedingly rare.  Minor ones, like feeling run-down, are normal; I got that with the anthrax, as did most folks who got it.

The thing is, and Surf alluded to it, that people are hardwired to pay more attention to stories than to figures.  So, a single horrible-sounding anecdote, like TwoBlues' child with the near-fatal reaction to the pertussis vax, weighs much more heavily than knowing that the benefits of the DPT are at least three orders of magnitude greater than the risks.  Think about it:  if I gave you two books on the same subject, one of which was a dry, straight exposition, heavy on numbers and charts, and the other an interesting and compelling story, which would you actually read all the way through?  If you read both, which would you remember?  For most people, the answer to both is "the story."  It takes a lot of effort and some training, either by self or others, to go from thinking about the story to thinking rationally.

That tendency is at the base of a lot of the "debates" about science that are only really happening in the public discourse, with very little disagreement among actual scientists, things like vaccines, evolution (teach the controversy my hairy monkey butt), and so on.  The huge amount of attention Wakefield's study got, and the defense he continues to get even after his paper has been conclusively shown to be fabrication from one end to the other, show the nigh-totemic power of the story.

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #57 on: January 22, 2011, 11:23:48 PM »
Mr. Bill, That damn casket has been following me from thread to thread.  I know I'm old, but it's about to freak me out! ???

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #58 on: January 23, 2011, 12:51:28 AM »
Mr. Bill, That damn casket has been following me from thread to thread.  I know I'm old, but it's about to freak me out! ???

Please either PM Mr. Bill, or me with the name of the company that is offending you (we don't all see the same ads).  One or the other of us will stop that company from being a part of TSP for forever if that happens.

Edit:  I'm very sorry for the thread diversion.  This is a very interesting conversation.

Offline mamabear

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #59 on: January 23, 2011, 08:38:38 AM »
AtADeadRun, I agree with what you posted about the "stories" vs the "facts". As you and others have said, us laymen can't always understand the "dry statistical" information that is given to us or is available to read. My son is also on the spectrum. Unlike some of the other folks that can tell you that after the vaccines they started noticing differences in their children, my son showed odd behaviors from the day he was born. I didn't realize it when he was an infant, just had some questions on why he didn't cry, why he didn't develop his fine and gross motor skills as fast as the charts said he should. So unless the very first vaccine rec'd at two months caused it, I find it hard to believe that the vaccines were the only cause. I don't know that the vaccines are all bad, or all good. They obviously have very good components to them, like preventing all the devastating childhood illnesses that we don't see anymore because of vaccines. But I also agree that everything that is in the vaccines cannot be good for our systems, especially an infant. Along with that thought though, at whatever age we choose to start feeding our children "table food", unless we are only feeding natural organic never had a chemical touch the food, the very food we feed our children isn't always good for them.

I also agree with others that say that some of the increase is simply an increase in awareness of the "disorders". Years ago, children on the mild end of the spectrum didn't get diagnosed on the spectrum. They were just labeled as different. Or not labeled at all. They just learned to function as best as they could. We called them quirky.  Now when our children display any kind of "odd" behaviors, the doctors are quick to find a label for the kids. I understand this as the children can then get the care they need. If my son had not been placed on the spectrum, he would not have been evaluated for services through the school. As it was he didn't really need services, but that meeting allowed us to sit down with the school teachers and principal and the folks from the office that evaluates the kids to see if they need services. Although he didn't qualify for their help, they had wonderful ideas to pass on to the teachers and school for options and alternatives when the "regular" teaching methods were not working. Now if the teacher had listened and been open to the suggestions but that's another story.

Basically, I am not certain that vaccines cause autism, but I am also not certain that they can't have that affect. Any time we pump stuff into our systems, the long term effects for each individual person is not known. Even with all the testing and reviews, I don't see how the scientists or whoever does the testing, can be certain with 100% that the vaccines couldn't cause problems, above and beyond the mild side affects. To me the risk is worth it. I would rather have a kid on the spectrum than to have my child die from a disease that he should never have caught if I'd gotten him vaccinated. I can't help a dead child. I can help a child on the spectrum. And if I were to have another child, I would vaccinate that child just like the doctor's recommend. All of life is a risk, so in the name of living, I will take my chances and live.