Author Topic: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.  (Read 45160 times)

Offline surfivor

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #60 on: January 23, 2011, 09:31:24 AM »
Note: There was more mercury in a can of tuna than the vaccines back when they were raising hell about it.



Do we really want a world where hideous PREVENTABLE diseases like polio, smallpox and pertussis rule the roost again?  If we stop immunizations as a standard practice targeted to the entire population we will have that world.  Talk to someone in their 80s about their childhood memory of polio and the legitimate fear that all children had prior to immunizations. 





 I tend to never order swordfish as I saw at one time that swordfish is high in mercury. Not sure on tuna, I tend to not eat that either. I eat haddock which has much lower levels, I am not sure on salmon. I need to check that again as I may have forgotten the details. I'm not sure if injecting something into your bloodstream is different either or if the small size of an infant is a factor. I have heard it claimed that maybe the stuff isn't always mixed evenly so maybe one person might get more of the mercury than another because the nurse didn't shake the stuff up before doing the shot or something .. Who the heck really knows if all the batches are the same anyway ..

 Anyway, what are the numbers ? how much mercury is in a can of tuna ? how much in a shot ? I know I have heard there's different kinds of mercury .. I try to see how much exact details I can get if I have the time and motivation to look into it.

 That and other questions including polio, smallpox, and wooping cough I will have to put on my list of things to research. I have heard that polio vaccinations in Africa have not always been going well for those vaccinated, but haven't really looked into it.

 I have to say, there's also Bill Gates who for some reason is big on funding vaccines in Africa, as well as GMO science (he is heavily invested with Monsanto) and yet he also is concerned about population control .. That may get into tin foil hat, can't help with a little overlap, but somehow I doubt his intentions are based on his feeling of compassion and that no other factors play into that.

 If we really wanted to go down that road, apparently not all researchers agree that AIDS is caused by HIV and there are some doctors and scientists out there on that front I believe as well. There was an experimental vaccination of gay males just two years before AIDS started where they gave them all hepatitis shots.

 When AIDS first came out, I was in my early 20's. It was hyped so much like 50% of the population must have been exposed. I was a bit worried and freaked out, it sounded like we where all going to die the way the media was reporting it, seriously I kid you not. I had a skin condition that developed where I had dry skin (excema). Being ignorant that I was just a bit older and had sensitive skin, I worried that maybe I had AIDS. I have since heard that the whole thing is overblown, that many people in Africa are malnourished and get sick with all kinds of things. They diagnose them as having AIDS and then they get more funding for drug research over there. How AIDS is diagnosed in Africa is much different than in the west as well and seems to be less of an exact science (to whatever extent the science may be exact).












« Last Edit: January 23, 2011, 09:49:26 AM by surfivor »

Offline surfivor

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #61 on: January 23, 2011, 08:58:29 PM »
 regarding mercury in tuna. I have found numerous websites that recommend infants and pregnant mothers not eat fish that contain higher mercury levels such as swordfish and others. Tuna seems to also get mentioned, but is not as high as certain other fish.

Natural news here mentions some hepatitis vaccine that is very high in mercury and seems to say alot of bad things on vaccines in general that have mercury:
 http://www.naturalnews.com/011764.html

 I would have thought mercury in fish would be in the parts per million or some trace amount. Where mercury is added
specifically to a vaccine as an adjuvant or preservative, my guess is that it would be a higher amount than a trace amount ..


 It seems you can find websites that contradict each other. One website will say this study showed no link between autism and vaccines, other sites say the opposite .. Wakefield had given out names of other studies that concurred with his findings.  I couldn't remember the one I heard about, but did find the one below. If the medical establishment is under pressure from the industry, it wouldn't surprise me that fewer doctors or researchers might want to speak out etc 

http://www.ageofautism.com/2010/01/wakefields-science-proven-valid-again-in-new-study-that-replicates-findings.html

 I guess I also have the thought that many people will want to trust scientists and the media on vaccines, but when it comes to global warming, the opposite reaction occurs .. at least with alot of people on TSP ..
 
« Last Edit: January 23, 2011, 09:18:54 PM by surfivor »

Offline Darkwinter

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #62 on: January 23, 2011, 09:13:48 PM »
It seems you can find websites that contradict each other. One website will say this study showed no link between autism and vaccines, other sites say the opposite .. Wakefield had given out names of other studies that concurred with his findings.  I couldn't remember the one I heard about, but did find the one below. If the medical establishment is under pressure from the industry, it wouldn't surprise me that fewer doctors or researchers might want to speak out etc 

http://www.ageofautism.com/2010/01/wakefields-science-proven-valid-again-in-new-study-that-replicates-findings.html

 

I am not a doctor and have not read the entire paper - but this study appears to draw a coorelation between GI issues and autism.  I do not see any mention of the word vaccine in the abstract.

Offline surfivor

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #63 on: January 23, 2011, 09:39:44 PM »
 GI is apparently some related problem in england either with MMR vaccinations or related to the children in the Wakefield study. I'm not exactly sure. The video below at 6:30 shows parents with signs confronting Brian Deer and arguing about GI with their kids. Brian Deer was the guy who supposedly played the main role in discrediting Wakefield study ..

 I guess the other thing is that wakefield never claimed that every and all forms of autism was caused by vaccines which
he says is a deliberate confusion tactic

 I guess what wakefield has also said is that there is a link with the intestines and that many of the kids who get sick have bowl problems as well, though possible I guess the parents may not realize it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=id_AxZ3zHAc&feature=player_embedded#


 Here are some articles of a young girl that the govt awarded millions of dollars in a court case perhaps somewhat secretly or something I guess for what appears to have been vaccine induced autism

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1721109,00.html

http://adventuresinautism.blogspot.com/2008/03/meet-hanna-poling.html

another blog talks about courts that settle these things in secret:
http://floridablocks.blogspot.com/2009/02/government-again-concedes-vaccines.html

http://www.newsweek.com/blogs/lab-notes/2009/02/25/vaccines-and-autism-the-unending-story.html

http://www.ageofautism.com/2009/02/government-again-concedes-vaccines-cause-autism.html

autism research center claims links with mercury in vaccines to autism:
http://legacy.autism.com/triggers/vaccine/mercurylong.htm

some other study as well:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20628440

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/social/hxwhite/autism-research-discovery_b_794967_70976957.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-mark-hyman/autism-research-discovery_b_794967.html

« Last Edit: January 23, 2011, 10:23:25 PM by surfivor »

Offline AtADeadRun

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #64 on: January 24, 2011, 05:31:35 AM »
GI, in this context, is gastrointestinal.  The bogus Wakefield study attempted to link autism, a specific subset of gastrointestinal issues, and the MMR vaccine.  Brian Deer is a journalist who pulled together a lot of the data showing that, according to the health records of the kids in the Wakefield study, there's no way it could be anything other than bogus.

Offline AtADeadRun

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #65 on: January 24, 2011, 05:59:45 AM »
And here's an interesting notion from a San Francisco-area pediatrician that might serve all of us better:  make vaccines optional, but hike the insurance premiums of anyone refusing them.

If you'd like to make risky choices about the preventative medicine to provide your child, go ahead, but you're going to have to pay significantly more to do so.

Offline surfivor

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #66 on: January 24, 2011, 06:22:29 AM »
And here's an interesting notion from a San Francisco-area pediatrician that might serve all of us better:  make vaccines optional, but hike the insurance premiums of anyone refusing them.

If you'd like to make risky choices about the preventative medicine to provide your child, go ahead, but you're going to have to pay significantly more to do so.

everyone is concerned about a risk of some sort. You are concerned about a risk to your child, others are concerned about the risk of vaccines themselves.

 Here's an article showing that the govt has been trying to make drug companies exempt from all liabilities related to vaccines. I have heard this same sort of thing from other sources as well. They stand to make mega bucks in profits with no risk involved if there is a problem. Sort of like how wall street works, if the market goes up, they get paid. If it crashes then the tax payer has to bail them out ..

http://www.ageofautism.com/2010/10/should-vaccins-be-exempt-from-product-liability-will-supreme-court-protect-business-or-you.html


 If you want to punish people financially for violating your perception of risk, then maybe there should be a way to punish you or the drug companies if it turns out years latter that your perception was wrong and people where harmed because they felt compelled to go along because they couldn't afford not to etc. It seems sort of like betting or gambling, but at least it's about real issues rather than where a wheel stops spinning on a black jack table .. on the other hand, it's sort of like gambling with people's lives ..

 On another note, what if people in the drug companies where found to be deliberately deceptive and lied about the safety in big ways and people in regulatory positions did the same ?  I would tend to think many people should go to jail or maybe even face the death penalty depending on the enormity of what was involved, even though I usually don't like the death penalty, I guess I am fed up with corruption in high places ..




« Last Edit: January 24, 2011, 06:58:58 AM by surfivor »

Offline AtADeadRun

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #67 on: January 24, 2011, 07:14:06 AM »
Quote
Here's an article showing that the govt has been trying to make drug companies exempt from all liabilities related to vaccines. I have heard this same sort of thing from other sources as well.

You know why that's the case?  Because vaccines have such a slim profit margin that basic research into vaccines has largely ended because the false hue and cry about their efficacy and safety has generated enormous liability concern, so capping or exempting liability is the only way to encourage continued research into the critically important area of vaccination.  Making mega-bucks doesn't happen with vaccines.

Offline surfivor

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #68 on: January 24, 2011, 07:17:19 AM »
You know why that's the case?  Because vaccines have such a slim profit margin that basic research into vaccines has largely ended because the false hue and cry about their efficacy and safety has generated enormous liability concern, so capping or exempting liability is the only way to encourage continued research into the critically important area of vaccination.  Making mega-bucks doesn't happen with vaccines.

 I am glad to hear that, I had though all along that government was corrupt and the drug industry was just out to make profits .. I guess they really do care ..

 CVS is pushing vaccines 24/7 not purely from a profit motive ..

 For some reason, I suspect if you heard what you heard, you might have heard it from them .. I guess I have heard similar types of claims, and others claiming that those where not really accurate claims ..

 Ok, people on here are going to say they are making a profit, but it's not as big as you think. I suspect others may not agree with that however .. of course if we could sue them for every penny, then there would be less profit incentive, but then no liability whatsoever is the other extreme

some of these debates on TSP I have to give up on because my views are too much in the minority, but there seem to be some people on both sides on this one, at least so far ..
« Last Edit: January 24, 2011, 07:38:29 AM by surfivor »

Offline Darkwinter

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #69 on: January 24, 2011, 01:18:05 PM »
Surf:

Profit is always a motivation.  It is a motivation for the companies making the vaccines.  It is a motivation for the doctors distributing the vaccines.  The nurses aiding the doctors.  Wakefield has finacial motives too.  We all need money.

I love your post, because they make me think, but the problem is that I can't find these studies that replicate Wakefields results.  There appears to be studies showing a link between GI issues and autism, but no link between MMRP causing either the GI issues or the Autism.  I have children and had to make a scary decision.  To vaccinate or not.  And I want to read both sides of the argument.  But this one seems to be focused more on opinion and congecture than tests.

Please keep posting and know that we all appreciate your input, we just may not agree.

Offline Dainty

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #70 on: January 29, 2011, 02:59:09 AM »
What bothers me is the fact that parents are not educated about potential adverse reactions to vaccines before their children get jabbed. So when and adverse reaction happens, the outrage is understandable.

Manufacturers are required to list known side effects of medications, correct? Even in TV ads.

Before performing a medical procedure, IIRC the law requires a doctor explains to the patient all possible risks, even those extremely rare complications. That way the patient knows exactly what they're getting into, they can decide to weigh the benefits and risks of each option and make an informed decision.

And yet, for some strange reason, there appears to be no requirement for doctors to inform parents of the risks of vaccinations. It appears to me that the government justifies this by believing that the benefits outweigh the risks. They probably do. But just like with surgeries and drugs, patients (or in this case their parents) ought to know both sides of the coin. I think our government doesn't trust its citizens to make smart decisions with the information presented to them so they hide and downplay anything potentially negative about vaccinations in order to keep the sheeple compliant, a strategy that is beginning to backfire.

I don't believe vaccinations are as good as the government plays them up to be, and I don't believe vaccinations are as bad as non-vaccinators claim them to be. It's more complicated than that.

I do know that many vaccine reactions go unreported, because a person's doctor claims that a very clear reaction cannot be to a vaccination. I've had enough personal experience with similar refusals myself to believe that this sort of brush-off is common. For example, at one point I was taking allergy shots to try to manage my numerous allergy problems. Presently I began to notice that I seemed to be getting extremely exhausted for two days at regular intervals--I would literally sleep off and on for 48 hours straight, only getting up to eat and use the bathroom before falling again into an exhausted slumber. It didn't take long to realize that this issue was only happening right after every allergy shot. So every week I'd be completely wiped out for 2 days. Skip shots one week and it doesn't happen. I spoke with the person administering the shots, she says that wasn't a reaction to them. I then spoke to the allergy doctor, and she said there was no possible way that what I described could have anything to do with the shots.

And yet, it happened every single time I received an allergy shot, and it never happened otherwise.

Eventually I decided that the anecdotal evidence was too strong, I was right and the doctor was wrong, and I was done with allergy shots. What a coincidence that my reoccurring symptom stopped too at that exact same time! ::) Of course that wouldn't be recorded as a reaction--in the eyes of the allergy doctor I was just some hypochondriac patient who didn't have a clue.

Want another example? I had an upper endoscopy done where also a sensor was attached to remain for a few days collecting data. When I woke up afterwards and tried to drink something, as the liquid traveled down my esophagus when it passed a certain point there would be unbearable pain. This was reported to the doctor, who came and told me point blank: "there is no way this can be causing you any pain" and sent me home. I was an athlete and pretty tough when it came to pain, but despite my best efforts I was in the ER that night for dehydration (where, of course, other hassles ensued, but that's another story). Yet again, a complication arose that will not be recorded as a possible outcome of the procedure because some doctor decided that my pain didn't exist.

So when people share their anecdotal stories about vaccine reactions not being recorded, I believe them, and when people claim that vaccine reactions are very rare, pointing to the statistics of reported reactions, I am skeptical. Honestly I wish I wasn't. I wish I could trust doctors to actually listen to the mothers who say, "look, my baby is generally not fussy at all, but he's been screaming nonstop for 5 hours since he got that last shot" and to report it as a reaction. Instead, from what I read the doctors and nurses tend to believe that the mother doesn't have a clue as to what she's talking about.

A little over a year ago a family I know was getting the swine flu vaccine. We briefly shared a few concerns with them beforehand just as an FYI, and they made their decision. As it turned out their 11 year old daughter went deaf after receiving the shot, thankfully it only turned out to be a temporary reaction. Does that scare me away from vaccines completely? No. Does that make me think a little before deciding to get one? Yeah, it does, and it ought to.

I am not against vaccinations. I'm just frustrated that the general public is not informed of the risks and many adverse reactions go unreported, thus we don't have accurate information on their safety. Yes, it is probable that the benefits outweigh the risks, though I prefer to weigh each disease/vaccine separately, but the fact of that matter is that the decision to get a vaccine should be a fully informed one, and I don't think we have that right now.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2011, 03:05:54 AM by Dainty »

Offline NotAGrasshopper

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #71 on: January 29, 2011, 05:26:07 AM »
I am going to stray back into this thread carefully and precisely one time to address surf's very good question.  Then I am going to leave because in many ways this thread pisses me off and makes me say things that piss other people off.

Why do others need annual flu shots ? Their life is not at real risk. If they get the flu, stay home and get better. Most of the flu I have had was nothing dangerous ..

Your flu wasn't dangerous to *you*.  It was potentially very dangerous to *others*.   Let's hope it didn't happen but you could have passed it to some unsuspecting guy who then went home and snuggled with his five month old baby (too young for a vaccine), who subsequently died.  People walk around spreading the flu (remember, you can spread it before you get symptoms) and give it to other people who then pass it to someone who for any of a variety of reasons can't get the flu vaccine.  Flu carriers sneeze in elevators, spraying every button with virus.  They snot on doorknobs, they even snot on faucet handles while trying to be good hand-washers - the list goes on.  Vaccines break the transmission chain.

There is a long list of folks who for a variety of reasons cannot get a vaccine.  They rely on herd immunity for protection.  Remember, every baby that dies of the flu got it from someone else - probably someone who chose not to get vaccinated.  Maybe their parent - maybe not.  But directly or indirectly, the fact that someone chose not to get vaccinated caused the death of that baby.  *That* is why I think otherwise healthy people should be vaccinated and *that* is why I have such strong feelings on this subject.

I actually got in trouble at work for telling one of the guys who works for me to go home when he showed up at the office with flu symptoms.  HR told me the company wasn't allowed to send people home if they were sick - that it was a personal decision.  Lunacy is what it is.  I almost went home myself.

Quote
being sick is not always fun, but it can give you time to rest, read, do other things ..

...or for 20,000-40,000 people each year, die.

Later.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2011, 06:34:47 AM by NotAGrasshopper »

Offline lisapaintergirl

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #72 on: January 29, 2011, 11:04:02 AM »
Children who don't receive vaccinations shouldn't be allowed in school.  In fact, I don't think they should be allowed out in public.


Should not be allowed in public? are you serious?...

Let me say a few things. One, I don't put too much into surveys and studies because they can always be slighted to help hold up one view OR THE OTHER- including big money pharmaceuticals. Real experiences from real people speak louder to me than any study. When hundreds of parents all have a real experience, that their children were normal one day and then had a reaction immediately following a vaccination, and then were never the same again.....that is not coincidence, that is not something to dismiss, that IS medical data from the real world. You can't dispute real experience.

We seem to, as a society, have exchanged temporary, sick for a week or two, childhood diseases for things like autism & diabetes that last a lifetime.

More real experience... I am a healthier-than-anyone-I-know non-vaccinated person. When I went to public high school in the 80's, the school had 2 different outbreaks of measles in 3 years. This outbreak was among Vaccinated students. Nothing like a false sense of security, thinking you have immunity and then the vaccine fails you, when you're older and need immunity most. So, the school sent home the non-vaccinated healthy non-sick kids. Here I am healthy, hadn't missed a day of school since the 3rd grade, and I have to go home because the "immunized" kids are getting sick. What did my family do? Since we were out of school anyway, we found some sick kids and purposely got infected the old fashion way. Now I KNOW I'm immune. I don't have to worry about getting a childhood disease as an adult- where the severity is so much more problematic. What percentage of vaccinated people really go back for those boosters anyway??? I would much rather have chicken pox for a week than a lifetime of autism THANK you very much!

Maybe some diseases, like polio, maybe the benefit outweigh the risks. Maybe. The vaccine makers like to take credit for the disappearance of Polio, but the truth is, if you look at a long term graph, the disease was already disappearing on it's own naturally after running it's course.

You don't have to protect your children from non-vaccinated children. They will be the healthiest kids your child ever meets. My high school in fact had to do the opposite- protect the non-vaccinated ones from the sick vaccinated ones. Go figure. How about you (notagrasshopper) live your life the way you see fit, and let me make my own intelligent, well thought out decisions.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2011, 11:56:19 AM by Hare of Caerbannog »

Offline NotAGrasshopper

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« Last Edit: January 29, 2011, 12:16:28 PM by NotAGrasshopper »

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #74 on: January 29, 2011, 12:04:12 PM »
NotAGrasshopper ~ I appreciate your self control.




lisapaintergirl
This being your first post, I am giving you some leeway.
This is a very emotional issue and I understand why you would take it so serious.
On the other hand, we maintain a Very Civil forum here. Please visit the front porch section and introduce yourself in the intro thread. Get the feel for our forum so we know you a bit better and so you can get to know us.



To everyone:
I want to assure everyone that your opinion is respected. But this thread is very close to being locked and tossed away. That wouldn't help anyone.
Stay calm and lets help each other understand each other.

Offline Darkwinter

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #75 on: January 29, 2011, 12:20:06 PM »
What bothers me is the fact that parents are not educated about potential adverse reactions to vaccines before their children get jabbed. So when and adverse reaction happens, the outrage is understandable.


I have two small children who have both been vaccinated for childhood illnesses.  When I go to the peditrician, he presents me with a phamplet that explains what is in the shot, what illness the shot is meant to prevent, and what the potential side effects are.  You are right that many people have no idea what is in the shot of what the side effects could be.  But I don't think this is the medical profesionals fault.  I belive it is the patient, or patients parent.  It is the responsibility of the patient to ask quetions and to read the information.  If your doctor is not willing to give you twenty minutes to talk about it, then you need to find a new doctor.

But the side effects are given to the patients.

Not all vaccines are right for all people.  They are a drug, and like any drug you should review the benefits and examine the consequences of the medication.  But on the same note, not all vaccines are evil.  I personally understand why so many parents are hesitant to vaccinate their children.  I understand why adults are reluctant to get vaccinations.  But in my personal, non medical opinion, I do vaccinate and will be vaccinated from most preventable illnesses.

Science can seem like a religion at times.  We start with a "fact", like the world revolves around the earth.  And there is observable evidence that this occurs.  Then science tells us that the earth revolves around the sun.  They say that dinosaurs are lizards, then change to dinosaurs were birds.  They tell us of a coming ice age, then say its global warming.  But even though science is always changing, there is some great reserch on the major childhood vaccinations, and overall they appear to do more good than harm.  I am not saying that they do no harm.  Just that they appear to have a net benefit.

And as always, like HoC mentioned, this is a civil discussion.

Offline NotAGrasshopper

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #76 on: January 29, 2011, 01:26:48 PM »
@Hare:  Locked I can understand. Just my .02 there has been too much good discussion by Doc and others to pitch it. Again just my opinion.

Offline Darkwinter

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #77 on: January 29, 2011, 01:44:11 PM »
There are good links and discussion from everyone in this thread, and it is a disscusion.  As long as it stays civil, the thread will remain open.  But the decision will be HoC's since I am actively participating in the thread.

So everyone PLAY NICE!!!! :D

Offline Doc K

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #78 on: January 30, 2011, 03:09:44 AM »
I do know that many vaccine reactions go unreported, because a person's doctor claims that a very clear reaction cannot be to a vaccination. ...at one point I was taking allergy shots to try to manage my numerous allergy problems. Presently I began to notice that I seemed to be getting extremely exhausted for two days at regular intervals--I would literally sleep off and on for 48 hours straight ... I then spoke to the allergy doctor, and she said there was no possible way that what I described could have anything to do with the shots... Eventually I decided that the anecdotal evidence was too strong, I was right and the doctor was wrong, and I was done with allergy shots. What a coincidence that my reoccurring symptom stopped too at that exact same time! ::) Of course that wouldn't be recorded as a reaction--in the eyes of the allergy doctor I was just some hypochondriac patient who didn't have a clue....

Dainty - Just to be clear, allergy shots (a.k.a. Immunotherapy) are VERY different than vaccinations.  I oversee administration of immunotherapy multiple times per week.  Your reaction is not unheard of (it is rare).  I will venture to say, without knowing anything else about your medical history and taking everything at face value, that your doc was wrong, and this was directly related to the allergy shots.  Likely, you were having a variation of a systemic reaction... basically a mild, prolonged form of anaphylaxis.  Likely, reducing your antigen dose or advancing at a slower rate would have resolved this, but not always.


Want another example? I had an upper endoscopy done where also a sensor was attached to remain for a few days collecting data... would be unbearable pain... doctor, who came and told me point blank: "there is no way this can be causing you any pain"

I believe you are describing a pH monitor used to assess reflux severity.  Likely, the monitor itself wasn't the "cause" of pain, but more likely the endoscopy itself or the attachment of the sensor.  Again, if it was how you described, I would also say that this doc was wrong or playing symantics with you to avoid blame.  Why?  Who knows?  What you are descibing is a known risk factor with endoscopy in general


Honestly I wish I wasn't. I wish I could trust doctors to actually listen to the mothers who say, "look, my baby is generally not fussy at all, but he's been screaming nonstop for 5 hours since he got that last shot" and to report it as a reaction. Instead, from what I read the doctors and nurses tend to believe that the mother doesn't have a clue as to what she's talking about.

You've had your fair share of medical interactions, and unfortunately more than your fair share of complications and episodes of medical professionals not listening to you.  Not to defend them, especially since I don't know you or your medical history...  but there is a trap that docs get into when dealing with patients with many medical problems... when patients have many medical issues, it is hard to take every complaint as seriously as if an otherwise healthy person comes in and complained of only one problem.  Not saying that is right, but I am saying how it is.

I do understand your frustration and distrust.  That is why I became a physician in the first place - an episode with my wife coupled with a self-centered doctor who made an incorrect diagnosis.

With that said, there are plenty of known reactions to vaccines.  Fussiness, fevers on the mild side to death in the worst case, severe allergic reaction.  BUT, just because there are bad doctors, and people out to make money, we cannot say that vaccines cause X because people believe it to be true.  We need evidence.  We need studies to support our treatments (or decision not to treat).  When I have patients coming to me and are literally placing their life in my hands, I cannot make decisions based on some loud, outspoken people with anecdotal stories with no evidence.  I don't do that with heart attacks, stroke, seizures, or broken bones, so I cannot do that with vaccines.

Doc K

Offline Dainty

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #79 on: January 30, 2011, 09:20:24 AM »
Dainty - Just to be clear, allergy shots (a.k.a. Immunotherapy) are VERY different than vaccinations.

Right, sorry I didn't intend to imply otherwise.

Your reaction is not unheard of (it is rare).  I will venture to say, without knowing anything else about your medical history and taking everything at face value, that your doc was wrong, and this was directly related to the allergy shots.  Likely, you were having a variation of a systemic reaction... basically a mild, prolonged form of anaphylaxis.  Likely, reducing your antigen dose or advancing at a slower rate would have resolved this, but not always.

That's fascinating! Up until now I hadn't heard an explanation for this. It's good to know that it'd be possible to try it again sometime in the future without having that reaction.

I believe you are describing a pH monitor used to assess reflux severity.  Likely, the monitor itself wasn't the "cause" of pain, but more likely the endoscopy itself or the attachment of the sensor.  Again, if it was how you described, I would also say that this doc was wrong or playing symantics with you to avoid blame.  Why?  Who knows?  What you are descibing is a known risk factor with endoscopy in general.

Well that's validating to know. This was the same doctor who blamed me for waking up during the procedure..."You must have been stressed."

Doc, you seem to be one of the good ones. There are a lot of bad ones out there.

With that said, there are plenty of known reactions to vaccines.  Fussiness, fevers on the mild side to death in the worst case, severe allergic reaction.  BUT, just because there are bad doctors, and people out to make money, we cannot say that vaccines cause X because people believe it to be true.  We need evidence.  We need studies to support our treatments (or decision not to treat).  When I have patients coming to me and are literally placing their life in my hands, I cannot make decisions based on some loud, outspoken people with anecdotal stories with no evidence.  I don't do that with heart attacks, stroke, seizures, or broken bones, so I cannot do that with vaccines.

Doc K

I understand that anecdotal evidence should not sway your recommendations. What I am saying is that doctors should report vaccine reactions so that there is an accurate idea of just how common such reactions are. Yet instead of reporting reactions, many doctors are simply brushing them off or, with more severe reactions, claiming it was something else when the facts appear clear to the contrary. This is concerning to me because it means reactions are underreported, which means vaccine reactions are more common than the government claims they are--by how much, I don't know. Again, there is probably still more benefit than risk, but what are the exact facts? We don't see to know right now. And that bothers me.

Offline Doc K

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #80 on: January 30, 2011, 10:40:41 AM »
What I am saying is that doctors should report vaccine reactions so that there is an accurate idea of just how common such reactions are. Yet instead of reporting reactions, many doctors are simply brushing them off or, with more severe reactions, claiming it was something else when the facts appear clear to the contrary. This is concerning to me because it means reactions are underreported, which means vaccine reactions are more common than the government claims they are--by how much, I don't know. Again, there is probably still more benefit than risk, but what are the exact facts? We don't see to know right now. And that bothers me.

I understand your concern.  I have not met any docs who do that (or who have talked about it at least... ).  But there are published reactions to all vaccines available to anyone.  A decent website for information is: www.vaccineinformation.org/.  For more general information and other discussions, there is always the Mayo Clinic's website.  Just enter "vaccines" or a specific vaccine like "pertussis vaccine" into the search engine.  Great information... but I am biased - its my alma mater. 


Doc K

Offline The Sage of Monticello

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #81 on: January 30, 2011, 12:52:45 PM »
My wife is a medical coder and I can attest that many illnesses, side-effects, are coded to bill the insurance as well as reported to the CDC specifically pneumonia and flu. Moreover, the statistics the CDC uses in last year's flu scare stated on their web site in small print that only 10 states were used for their final statistics. This small sample example of how data is compiled highlights how compromised the data the public receives is.

For example, even if a doctor suspects a side-effect related illness is the cause of the visit they would simply code pneumonia, or flu, or whatever the present diagnosis is listed on a ER report, or discharge summary.

Another problem was seen in last year's H1N1 were a ton of fraudulent numbers were happening. For instance, mild flu, or colds were diagnosed as H1N1 without confirmation by lab work/swab test.

Therefore, a ton of false numbers contributed to the hysteria that H1N1 was a larger risk and pandemic of epic proportions last year. The end result, guess who benefited? Did most of North American population wipe out from the flu last year?

No pharma made a trillion dollars on vaccines and there were tons of left over vaccines looking to expire without being used because a large amount of the American population did not trust their government, the advice pushed by radio ads, school advertising, and free shot clinics at the grocery stores.

The pharmaceutical industry profited, and doctors continued a cozy relationship with pharmaceutical reps that buy the entire medical staff, departments, catered food, gift baskets, during the course of the year.

People must understand that Big Pharma act as political lobbyists influencing medical care providers to push vaccines and pharmaceutical drugs. I'm not saying doctors intentionally push bad products. I'm saying they are more influenced to push drugs they have been wined and dined with by pharm reps by offering free samples, etc.

In the end, if this type of misrepresentation of data occurred with the flu, it's only logical and reasonable to conclude this can happen with childhood vaccinations, side-effects, and the numbers that claim "rare" side-effects which include brain damage.

Autism is a brain disorder, so the side-effect is broadly stated on a majority of PDF descriptions of child hood vaccines you can find.

Offline surfivor

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #82 on: January 30, 2011, 10:36:37 PM »
 I'm curious how many people had heard that Baxter labs released live bird flu in the Czech republic last year right before the swine flu hype thing started. I heard many people say that it was not likely an accident as there are safeguards for such things and this was not even reported in most newspapers that this happened.

 This is one of the sorts of things that makes one suspicious of big pharma and the govt. Originally this was reported in a Canadian newspaper, but I guess it expired off of their website, though I did see the original article ..

 When I asked a state rep here who was involved in the quarintine bill, I mentioned this to him and he says "I don't read the toronto sun", well the point was someone reported it dag namit. Well it was at a christmas party so I had to be nice ..

http://www.naturalnews.com/025760.html

http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/live-avian-flu-virus-placed-in-baxter-vaccine-materials-sent/blog-68815/

 People have been afraid of bacterial infections a great deal and the overuse of anti biotics seems to have contributed to mersa and things like that ..

Anti Federalist wrote >> Another problem was seen in last year's H1N1 were a ton of fraudulent numbers were happening. For instance, mild flu, or colds were diagnosed as H1N1 without confirmation by lab work/swab test.
 
 Same I what I heard about with aids being diagnosed in Africa when in reality it may have been malnutrition or any other number of things.

In the story of the boy who cried wolf, it was the boy who was found to be at fault when the wolf showed up, but it seems like the govt and pharma could cry wolf a million times and be lying, but when the wolf does come, they will want to blame us for not believing them .. though likely the wolf may be their own creation anyway ..


« Last Edit: January 30, 2011, 10:43:01 PM by surfivor »

Offline Doc K

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #83 on: January 30, 2011, 11:00:25 PM »
I'm curious how many people had heard that Baxter labs released live bird flu in the Czech republic last year right before the swine flu hype thing started. I heard many people say that it was not likely an accident...

... I heard about with aids being diagnosed in Africa when in reality it may have been malnutrition or any other number of things...

So now big business and governments are releasing influenza and creating or making-up HIV/AIDS (not sure exactly what you meant about AIDS)?

You do realize that when you imply stuff like that in the conversation where you question the use of vaccines, your platform is deeply undermined. 

Doc K


Offline NotAGrasshopper

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #84 on: January 31, 2011, 07:26:09 AM »
Quote
 I'm curious how many people had heard that Baxter labs released live bird flu in the Czech republic last year right before the swine flu hype thing started. I heard many people say that it was not likely an accident as there are safeguards for such things and this was not even reported in most newspapers that this happened.

<bites tongue>

For a fascinating (and terrifying) look at where, how and why avian/swine/human flu comes from, go pick up The Monster at our Door.

No, it's not big pharma. It's poor Asians who keep chicken coops on top of their pig pens - it's poor Asian chicken farmers who don't tell the authorities  when their chickens get sick because they can't afford to have their flocks destroyed.

Offline surfivor

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #85 on: January 31, 2011, 03:56:34 PM »
 You guys can just ignore the fact that Baxter labs released bird flu if you like or use the tactic of whatever crazy camp I must belong to by following that piece of truth to it's conclusion, that's up to you. I am interested in finding out what the truth is, not necessarily always winning supposed points in public opinion or whatever. In the end the truth will come out I suspect one way or the other, it doesn't matter if you or others don't like it or are afraid it will make them look bad. Obviously, it's not always a pleasant topic and at times I too like to talk about other things ..

Jack says that we the crazies like to talk about 9/11. If we would just be more reasonable and talk about a new investigation, rather than imply something else then people would like us more and we would seem respectable. But the truth is the media thinks people like him are nuts too just for questioning and asking for a new investigation .. So you might as well deny that Baxter labs ever let lose all that live virus as no one who reads the paper really cares and they might think you are crazy just for saying something outside of what the paper says that they didn't read about in the paper

 It may be too that there are more people waking up to examine these things deeper as well, even if the TV says they are all crazy. Many people think the govt for instance killed JFK and there are quite a few of them .. This anti vaccination movement as they call it is a big deal for them to worry about, maybe for good reason because people are losing trust in the drug companies and govt ..


 People on the left too think there's all these crazies who don't believe in global warming either ..

 And yes, it seems most likely they misdiagnose aids and exaggerate it's presence of Africa, for whatever that is worth .. No surprise there .. 

 I have heard some claims that some of these diseases like small pox may have also died back from improved sanitation and healthier living. I'm not sure why everything the medical profession seems to push involves expensive drugs and the like. Am I supposed to believe that mankind can not make it through life without being pumped up and injected with all kinds of substances, given umpteen different pills of all sorts and this is the best we can hope for and is like the natural order of things ?

 So I guess if 20,000 people die from the flu if that is an accurate number or not, then the chances of you're child dying from the flu in a given year are maybe around 1 in 16000 based on the population of the USA being something around 311,987,612 .. Although who knows if there are other factors you might have some control over such as basic health, care, nutrition and so on ..

 I personally don't know anyone who has ever died from the flu and have not heard of any such occurrence through acquaintances etc .. 



« Last Edit: January 31, 2011, 04:28:56 PM by surfivor »

Offline NotAGrasshopper

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #86 on: January 31, 2011, 04:15:51 PM »
Surfivor, no offense but all you've done with this supposed Baxter Labs thing is said you read an article *somewhere* and can't substantiate what you're saying or point us to the article.

You are leveling some pretty serious charges against an organization and haven't produced one shred of evidence that what you are saying is true.  If you want us to "follow that piece of truth to it's conclusion," then give us some reason to believe it's true (other than your saying it is).

Baxter doesn't *need* to release avian/swine flu.  It's all over the place in the wild bird population.  There are lakes in Canada literally swimming in goose shit that is full of avian flu virii of various strains.  Influenza has always existed in wild bird populations.  It's when it mixes with strains to which we're susceptible (typically in a co-infected pig) that we have problems.  

Quote
Am I supposed to believe that mankind can not make it through life without being pumped up and injected with all kinds of substances, given umpteen different pills of all sorts and this is the best we can hope for and is like the natural order of things ?

Before vaccines, antibiotics and modern medicine our death rate from a huge number of diseases was much higher.  That is a fact that is beyond dispute.  So far beyond dispute that I'm not going to debate it.  Can mankind (as a species) survive without them?  Sure.  But at what cost to the individuals who are afflicted?  You do what you want, I'll get vaccinated and take medicine.  Darwin will eventually win, I assure you.

Quote
I have heard some claims that some of these diseases like small pox may have also died back from improved sanitation and healthier living.

Pure conjecture.  What does sanitation have to do with spreading a virus by coughing or sneezing?

As for your contention about AIDS in Africa, I actually believe you are correct.  Not because you said so but because I have read/seen the evidence myself.  See how that works?

NAG
« Last Edit: January 31, 2011, 04:31:00 PM by NotAGrasshopper »

Offline Darkwinter

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #87 on: January 31, 2011, 05:30:42 PM »
Lets take for fact, just for a minute, for sake of discussion, that Big Pharm DID release a flu.  And lets take for fact, just for a minute, for sake of discussion that they DID this on purpose to sell vaccines.

Does this make vaccines unsafe?  Does this prove that autism is caused by vaccines?  Does this even infer that vaccines are detrimental to our health.

And taking the information that one Big Pharm did this on purpose, does it mean that all vaccines are evil?

It doesn't.

Who wins when autism is linked to vaccines?  Lawyers.  I bet we could find a conspiracy theory about that!!


The point is, this thread is about vaccines and autism.  And although we can discuss other things related to that, we are straying a bit in the thread.

Offline NotAGrasshopper

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #88 on: January 31, 2011, 08:44:50 PM »
Quote
The point is, this thread is about vaccines and autism.  And although we can discuss other things related to that, we are straying a bit in the thread.

I sort of disagree.  The only shred of evidence re the autism link has been debunked and its author rendered degreeless.

The only remaining topics to discuss are vaccine conspiracies and maybe UFOs.

Offline NotAGrasshopper

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #89 on: January 31, 2011, 09:03:45 PM »
Quote
I have heard some claims that some of these diseases like small pox may have also died back from improved sanitation and healthier living.

Would that be the improved sanitation and healthier living practiced in Africa during the 70s when smallpox disappeared from that continent (after a WHO vaccine campaign)?