Author Topic: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.  (Read 45140 times)

Offline surfivor

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #90 on: February 01, 2011, 12:35:35 AM »
 There are numerous articles on the web that reference the Toronto sun on the live virus released by Baxter labs. I suppose you could call the paper and see what they can tell you about it. I would bet anyone money on this as I saw the article myself and it was well known in the alternative media at the time. It may have even been on democracy now. It's not uncommon for old articles to disappear.

 There was also much heard from people in the EU such as Dr Wodarg of the Health Committee in The European Council that the swine flu was a fake pandemic:

 http://www.wodarg.de/english/3013320.html

 I don't know alot on smallpox, or the WHO branch of the UN, though I have doubts on these things as well.  but even if 1 or 2 vaccines might have had some success that does not mean umpteen different ones of every sort should be forced on the population without question ..

 We haven't heard the end of this thing with Wakefield either, he has apparently been on ABC defending his position and the guy who supposedly discredited him was a journalist and not a doctor and the basis of that discredit seem rather flimsy and circumstantial ..




Quote
Pure conjecture.  What does sanitation have to do with spreading a virus by coughing or sneezing?

 Many factors influence disease. Your body is exposed to microbes all the time. If you are stressed out, emotionally disturbed, not eating right, not getting enough sleep, working too hard on a slave job, an alcoholic, a very angry person, depressed, living in perpetual worry or fear of something, suffering from psychological or physical abuse of some kind, domestic violence, cheated on by a spouse, staying out all night and running around with hookers, taking lots of recreational drugs, living in an area where there are insect or rodent infestations, weakened by exposure to the elements because you can't afford to heat or cool your home, heartbroken by a lost love, death in the family, loss of fortune, self loathing or a deep sense of dissatisfaction with things in your life, post traumatic stress and guilt because you killed someone in a war or witnessed horrible and tragic violence, etc or any number of things that disturb you psychologically or otherwise, or maybe it's just your time. Any or all of those can influence your bodies immune system to defend itself .. basically, man is more complex than a simple machine .. If you go through this list of things that I've mentioned here, it can be seen that life has many challenges and many people have various weaknesses in many of these areas ..

Quote
Before vaccines, antibiotics and modern medicine our death rate from a huge number of diseases was much higher.  That is a fact that is beyond dispute.  So far beyond dispute that I'm not going to debate it.  Can mankind (as a species) survive without them?  Sure.  But at what cost to the individuals who are afflicted?  You do what you want, I'll get vaccinated and take medicine.  Darwin will eventually win, I assure you.

 Well, Spirko I think said if you subtract infant mortality, many people hundreds of years ago lived to similar ages they do today. I have also heard that life expectancy in the united states may be or is expected to decline rather than increase in the near future etc ..


 I found some websites on vaccines .. I can't say that I know alot about this, especially in regards to smallpox and polio as I have just started to research that on the web a bit, but there are a number of things to wonder about and I have heard similar things. Here is just one such web site with quotes from various doctors and others:

=========================================================================

http://www.vaccinesuncensored.org/history.php


Historical Manipulation

The claim that vaccination has wiped out deadly scourges has reached legendary status. But are these claims backed by historical records or do they represent the most deceptive and successful public relations coup in the history of the medical industrial complex? And if vaccines-and not better sanitation etc. – saved humanity from disease, then where are today's epidemic of Scarlet Fever victims for which no vaccine was ever administered? *** It is also imperative to understand that the definition + diagnosis of polio was dramatically changed when the polio vaccine was introduced, further manipulating statistics. For an overview of this critically pertinent information see: www.thinktwice.com

Gerhard Buchwald

"The 'victory over epidemics' was not won by medical science or by doctors – and certainly not by vaccines... The decline has been the result of technical, social and hygienic improvement."
Gerhard Buchwald MD, Internal Medicine Specialist,Germany
random

"This history that has been cooked up to convince people that vaccines are safe and effective...The decline of disease was due to improve living conditions: cleaner water, advance sewage systems, nutrition a decrease in poverty. Germs may be everywhere but when you are really healthy, you don't contact disease as easily."
Mark Randall, (pseudonym) former NIH Researcher and Vaccine Developer in interview with investigative reporter, Jon Rappoport
Jayne Donegan

"I went to the Office for National Statistics and got out all the old books when public records began to be kept in 1837 and wrote down the mortality figures for the diseases against which we vaccinate. I was shocked to discover that vaccines hadn't made the great impact that I had been led to believe with graphs starting a few years before the vaccines were introduced. INSTEAD of showing the figures from fifty or a hundred years before when you would see that 95-99% of the reduction from measles, for example, already before vaccines were introduced."

Jayne Donegan, MBBS DRGOG, DCH, DFFP
Norshir Antia

"The charts plotted by the epidemiologist McKeown should humble scientists and lead them to look into the question of health from a holistic point of view. He showed how improvement of environmental conditions by reformers in Britian during the sanitary revolution of the nineteenth century led to effective controls of several major diseases like TB, colera and whooping cough in the absence of conventional biomedical tools."
Norshir Antia MD, Surgeon, India, 'A Life of Change, The Autobiography of a Doctor'
random

From 1900-1935 before the pertussis vaccine was introduced the death rate from pertussis in the United States and England had already declined on its own by 79% and 82% respectively.
International Mortality Statistics
random

Figures published in International Mortality Statistics confirm that from 1915-1958 the measles death rate in the U.S. and U.K. declined by 98% (five years before the creation of the measles vaccine)

random

"We were told repeatedly that Professor Ramous toxoid 'practically wiped out diptheria' in Britain, yet compulsory use at the same time in France showed very different results. In Britain with mass inoculations there was an increase in cases and deaths of several months, but in France with compulsory inoculations, the increases were much greater and lasted for many years."
Lionel Dole, 'The Blood Poisoners'
random

The New Zealand Government's statistics show that the average death rate per 10,000 fell from 6.08 to 0.20 before the use of diphtheria vaccine.
Southland Time 30-Sep-1998
random

The most phenomenal accomplishments in tuberculosis eradication have been achieved where little or no B.C.G. (vaccine) has been used, including in Iceland Hawaii and the Netherlands.
British Medical Journal, 6/6/1959
back to top
Smallpox Vaccine: Responsibe for Eradication or Epidemics?
random

"It is pathetic and ludicrous to say we ever vanquished smallpox with vaccines, when only 10% of the population was ever vaccinated."
Dr. Glen Dettman PhD, Australia
John Tilden

"There is no question but that perfect sanitation has almost obliterated this disease (smallpox) and sooner or later will dispose of it entirely. Of course when that time comes, in all probability the credit will be given to vaccination."

John Tilden MD (1851-1940)
William Howard Hay

"I have thought many times of all the insane things that we have advocated in medicine – one of the most insane – to insist on the vaccination of children or anybody else for the prevention of smallpox, when as a matter of fact, we are never able to prove vaccination saved one man from smallpox."
Dr. William Howard Hay (1866-1940), New York Practitioner
Viera Scheibner

"Smallpox was on the way out, indeed epidemics disappeared decades before the World Health Organization decided to conduct the final "eradication" campaign. It is also well-documented that the largest epidemics occurred in the most highly vaccinated populations, while the unvaccinated did not have the same epidemics."
Viera Scheibner, PhD, Scientific Researcher and Author
random

"If vaccines are so effective in preventing disease why have epidemics occurred around the world following mass vaccination programs? In the Philippines for example, "after ten years of compulsory inoculation against smallpox (25 million shots) over 170,000 got smallpox and 75,000 deaths were recorded between 1911 and 1920""
from the Townsend Letter for Doctors article "Are Vaccines Generally Detrimental to the Human Defence System" Feb/Mar 1994
William Howard Hay

"Early in this century, the Philippines experienced their worst smallpox ever after people received 24.5 million vaccine doses."

Dr. William Howard Hay, Address to Medicial Freedom Society, 6/25/37
random

"From the time in which smallpox was practically eradicated in the city of Manila, to the year 1918 (about nine years) in which the epidemic appears – certainly in one of its severest forms – hundreds after hundreds of thousands were yearly vaccinated, with the most unfortunate result that the 1918 epidemic looks, prima facie, as a flagrant failure of the classic immunization towards future Epidemics."
Report of the Public Health Service 1920 (discussing smallpox in Manila)
Walter Hadwen

"Since the passing of the Compulsory Vaccination Act in (Britain) 1853 we have had no less than three distinct epidemics. In 1857-9. We had more than 14,000 deaths from small pox. In the 1863-5 epidemic the deaths increased to 20,000 and in the 1871-2 they totaled up to 44,800."
Walter Hadwen MD, MRCS LRCP, LSA
random

"In the Cologne epidemic of 1870, 173 vaccinated persons were attacked before the first unvaccinated one. In Liegnite in 1871, the first unvaccinated to suffer was 225th on the list."
William T. Collins MD, MRCS 1883
random

"How is it that smallpox is five times as likely to be fatal in the vaccinated as in the unvaccinated? How is it that in some of our most highly vaccinated towns, smallpox is rife whilst in some of our most poorly vaccinated towns such as Leicester, it is almost unknown? How is it that something like 80% of the cases admitted into the Metropolitan Board Smallpox Hospital have been vaccinated, whilst only 20% have not been vaccinated."
Dr. L. Parry, British Medical Journal, 1/21/28
random

"Millions of people died of smallpox which they contracted after being vaccinated."
J. W. Hodge, 'The Vaccine Superstition'
George Bernard Shaw

"At present, intelligent people do not have their children vaccinated. The result is not, as the Jennerians prophesied the extermination of the human race by smallpox, on the contrary more people are now killed by vaccinations than by smallpox."
George Bernard Shaw, The Irish Times, 8/9/44

================================
some excerpts from here are also interesting in relation to Africa:

http://shiloka.ning.com/forum/topics/proof-that-vaccines-are-made

4. Money spent on vaccines when clean water and other diseases mostly ignored (45% of UNESCO funds is spent on vaccines):
NB: About 1.2 billion people still have no access to safe drinking water, and 2.4 billion do not have adequate sanitation services. Some 2 million children die every year from water-related diseases. (Ref)

"The forcing of them to take a vaccine against a disease they know to be harmless and which they know how to cure in its harmful state was seen as government hell bent on killing its own population for the benefit of commanding whiteworld.....Uganda spent nine million of its meager resources marketing this European product (the money spent would have build 120,000 protected water springs giving 30% of the country access to clean water, it would have built ten ultra modern research centers looking at, for example, pests that are threatening the banana crop, but government chose European impose priorities." "--Kihura Nkuba 2003

"The army and the police move house to house looking for children to vaccinate. At the same time, things that kill children like malaria, cholera, issues of stunted growth, sanitation, are completely untackled."--- Kihura Nkuba (Nov 2002)


=============================

George Bernard Shaw on vaccines, I guess skepticism on vaccines has been around for a while:

http://www.whale.to/v/shaw1.html

Vaccination, medicine:
"Every doctor will allow a colleague to decimate a whole countryside sooner than violate the bond of professional etiquette by giving him away." --George Bernard Shaw

"We have not lost faith, but we have transferred it from God to the medical profession." (see)

"At present, intelligent people do not have their children vaccinated, nor does the law now compel them to. The result is not, as the Jennerians prophesied, the extermination of the human race by smallpox; on the contrary more people are now killed by vaccination than by smallpox."--George Bernard Shaw (August 9, 1944, the Irish Times )

"As a horrible reversion to the most degraded and abominable forms of tribal ritual, . . . which ought to have been made a criminal offence after the great epidemic of 1871."---George Bernard Shaw (Preface to The Doctor's Dilemma, 1906.)

"For years past the strain of countenancing such a proceeding, so gross, reckless, dirty, and dangerous as vaccination from the calf, has been growing unbearable to bacteriological experts. . . . Nothing but the natural ignorance of the public, countenanced by the inoculated erroneousness of the ordinary general medical practitioners, makes such a barbarism as vaccination possible. . . Recent developments have shown that an inoculation made in the usual general practitioner's light-hearted way, without previous highly skilled examination of the state of the patient's blood, is just as likely to be a simple manslaughter as a cure or preventive. But vaccination is nothing short of attempted murder. A skilled bacteriologist would just as soon think of cutting his child's arm and rubbing the contents of the dustpan into the wound, as vaccinating it in the same."--George Bernard Shaw (Letter to the Secretary of the National Anti-Vaccination League, March, 1906, repeated verbatim in a letter to the Irish Anti-Vaccination League, May, 1911, quoted in the Jennerian No. 29, p. 268. Sourced: Should we be vaccinated ? by bernhard Stern)

"As well consult a butcher on the value of vegetarianism as a doctor on the worth of vaccination." ---George Bernard Shaw

"You let a doctor take a dainty, helpless baby, and put that stuff from a cow, which has been scratched and had dirt rubbed into her wound, into that child. Even, the Jennerians now admit that infant vaccination spreads disease among children. More mites die from vaccination than from the disease they are supposed to be inoculated against."--George Bernard Shaw.(Referee for October 18, 1929)

"A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul. -- George Bernard Shaw (1944)

"All professions are conspiracies against the laity."--George Bernard Shaw.

"During the last considerable epidemic at the turn of the century, I was a member of the Health Committee of London Borough Council, and I learned how the credit of vaccination is kept up statistically by diagnosing all the revaccinated cases (of smallpox) as pustular eczema, varioloid or what not---except smallpox."---George Bernard Shaw

On August 9, 1944, the Irish Times published a letter from Mr. Shaw in which he "added a few words" to a very appreciative account of him that had appeared in that paper. Dealing with some of his alleged eccentricities, Mr. Shaw protested that there is nothing eccentric in his objection to the dangerous and grossly unscientific operation called vaccination. He wrote:

"Within my long lifetime, its ruthless enforcement throughout Europe ended in two of the worst epidemics of smallpox in record, our former more dreaded typhus and cholera epidemics having meanwhile been ended by sanitation. After that failure, the credit of vaccination was saved for a while by the introduction of isolation, which at once produced improved figures. At present, intelligent people do not have their children vaccinated, nor does the law now compel them to. The result is not, as the Jennerians prophesied, the extermination of the human race by smallpox; on the contrary more people are now killed by. vaccination than by smallpox.
    Yet the British Government, against the law, has just made vaccination compulsory in the Army by explicitly refusing to discipline an officer who has had an objector forcibly vaccinated; and the House of Commons received the news with cheers. Why does this exploded superstition persist? Simply because our education is not controversial, which means that as it is a hundred years out of date on all open questions, reforms have to come from the uneducated who suffer from the facts and know nothing of the books. .
    My own education has been entirely controversial: that is why I know what I am writing about; and appear eccentric to dogmatically educated Old School Ties whose heads are stuffed with obsolete shibboleths."---George Bernard Shaw (August 9, 1944, the Irish Times)

MR. GEO BERNARD SHAW -Further Extracts from His Writings (The Vaccination Inquirer Sept 1952)

When Margaret Viereck interviewed Shaw for the Referee for October 18, 1929, she "could not-resist bringing up the subject of his strong attitude against compulsory vaccination". He blazed: "You let a doctor take a dainty, helpless baby, and put that stuff from a cow, which has been scratched and had dirt rubbed into her wound, into that child. Even, the Jennerians now admit that infant vaccination spreads disease among children. More mites die from vaccination than from the disease they are supposed to be inoculated against."
« Last Edit: February 01, 2011, 02:29:04 AM by surfivor »

Offline surfivor

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #91 on: February 01, 2011, 07:06:01 AM »
 Regarding the case of live virus contamination by baxter labs to the czech republic.
a google search of 'baxter labs czech republic live virus' turns up numerous hits:

http://www.google.com/search?q=baxter+labs+czech+republic+live+virus&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a#q=baxter+labs+czech+republic+live+virus&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=x9b&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=ivns&ei=YRBITd6AMsTflgfz8PGaBA&start=10&sa=N&fp=dded8f20a6bb9442

 I posted articles below from wikipedia, bloomberg, and the times of India since those are not conspiracy web sites and seemed to be new sites with wide readership etc. This incident happened a few months before the "swine flu pandemic" as claimed by the world health organization.

I also posted articles from allnurses.com which is a website forum with many nurses online and a science blog site which has many health professionals as well.

 Anyway, aren't you glad that most of the media outlets don't cover this and you never found out about it ? That must make people feel safe to know they aren't telling you these things. There was no govt investigation on what happened, no one was fired, yada yada .. no new rules where put in place, though supposedly these things have numerous safeguards we are told ..


================================================
from wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baxter_International#2009_avian_flu_contamination
In early 2009, samples of viral material supplied by Baxter International to a series of European laboratories were found to be contaminated with live Avian flu virus (Influenza A virus subtype H5N1).[16] Samples of the less harmful seasonal flu virus (subtype H3N2) were found to be mixed with the deadly H5N1 strain after a vaccine made from the material killed test animals in a lab in the Czech Republic. Though the serious consequences were avoided by the lab in the Czech Republic,[17] Baxter claimed the failed controls over the distribution of the virus were 'stringent' and there was 'little chance' of the lethal virus harming humans.[

=========================
bloomberg article:


http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aTo3LbhcA75I


Baxter Sent Bird Flu Virus to European Labs by Error (Update2)
By Michelle Fay Cortez and Jason Gale - February 24, 2009 16:20 EST

Feb. 24 (Bloomberg) -- Baxter International Inc. in Austria unintentionally contaminated samples with the bird flu virus that were used in laboratories in three neighboring countries, raising concern about the potential spread of the deadly disease.

The contamination was discovered when ferrets at a laboratory in the Czech Republic died after being inoculated with vaccine made from the samples early this month. The material came from Deerfield, Illinois-based Baxter, which reported the incident to the Austrian Ministry of Health, Sigrid Rosenberger, a ministry spokeswoman, said today in a telephone interview. ...

=========================

the times of india:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home/science/Virus-mix-up-by-lab-could-have-resulted-in-pandemic/articleshow/4230882.cms

Virus mix-up by lab could have resulted in pandemic

It's emerged that virulent H5N1 bird flu was sent out by accident from an Austrian lab last year and given to ferrets in the Czech Republic before anyone realised. As well as the risk of it escaping into the wild, the H5N1 got mixed with a human strain, which might have spawned a hybrid that could unleash a pandemic. ...

========================

Nurse website

http://allnurses.com/pandemic-flu-forum/baxter-product-contained-419801.html

Baxter: Product contained live bird flu virus
Aug 29, 2009 11:07 PM written by ozoneranger | 13 Comments
Print   Email   Follow  

The company that released contaminated flu virus material from a plant in Austria confirmed Friday that the experimental product contained live H5N1 avian flu viruses. ...

The contaminated product, a mix of H3N2 seasonal flu viruses and unlabelled H5N1 viruses, was supplied to an Austrian research company. The Austrian firm, Avir Green Hills Biotechnology, then sent portions of it to sub-contractors in the Czech Republic, Slovenia and Germany.
The contamination incident, which is being investigated by the four European countries, came to light when the subcontractor in the Czech Republic inoculated ferrets with the product and they died. Ferrets shouldn’t die from exposure to human H3N2 flu viruses. ...


==============================

Science blog web site

http://scienceblogs.com/effectmeasure/2009/02/baxter_bird_flu_botch.php

In a post the other day on some kind of flu vaccine mishap in Austria we called it a colossal screw-up. It turns out we may have understated the case. Maybe. Because while more details are leaking out, the company responsible for it, Baxter International, isn't saying exactly what happened on the grounds that it is confidential business information. You almost have to admire that kind of arrogance. Almost. ...


Edited due to copyright issues -- please see here for Fair Use info.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2011, 09:15:06 AM by Mr. Bill »

Offline Doc K

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #92 on: February 01, 2011, 07:39:59 AM »
There are numerous articles on the web that reference the Toronto sun on the live virus released by Baxter labs. ...

Those are all interesting articles, but none of them come close to proving that the virus was released on purpose.



Well, Spirko I think said if you subtract infant mortality, many people hundreds of years ago lived to similar ages they do today....

I disagree with this one entirely.  The "science" that was used in this "study" was really bad.  Basically, you take all the notable people in history from years ago and then average their age... Well, notable people typically were wealthier and had better food and water and living conditions and access to medical care (as it was...).  WAY too many variable for this "study" to be taken seriously.  On top of that, you CAN'T just subtract infant mortality, because many of those infants died of exactly the things that are prevented with vaccines.


Now, I have to be fair and honest...  I have heard the argument many times about disease rates dropping substantially BEFORE the vaccine for that disease was implemented.  I have seen charts and graphs to support BOTH sides of that argument.  But I have never really looked at that data in depth.  I am going to try and do some looking and see what I can find on the topic.  I will let you know what I find.  However, that would still not support vaccines as being dangerous nor that they cause autism.

Doc K
 

Offline surfivor

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #93 on: February 01, 2011, 08:21:26 AM »
Quote
Those are all interesting articles, but none of them come close to proving that the virus was released on purpose.

 Still should be quite shocking, maybe even alarming to some extent ..

 Well, this is not the tin foil hat section, arguments on that front are many.

 
 What Bill Gates has been doing and invested in seems noteworthy to take a look at as well as The Rockafeller's probably ..

 One source that comes to mind on a similar topic is Dr Donald Scott out of Ontario Canada, who has some books and articles on aids in Africa.
I had listened to an interview of him on black op radio and have that on my IPod, but the show seems to have been expired off the website as it was from 2009 ..

here is a lengthy 36 page article and research by Donald Scott in the journal of degenerative diseases on the how and why aids came from a lab:
http://www.blackopradio.com/Aids-made-in-America-Jourv5n3.pdf

his book:


http://www.amazon.com/AIDS-Beyond-Donald-W-Scott/dp/1425159087


 Anyway, I don't know alot about the other vaccine stuff either and I am sure there are all kinds of arguments on either side on that stuff ..
I have a little more familiarity with recent vaccine developments and news stories related to swine flu ..


=============================


 On the swine flu What Dr Wodarg of the Health Committee in The European Council said sounds pretty serious alegations of a fake pandemic:

http://www.wodarg.de/english/3013320.html

Faked pandemic
Here my Interview for the danish "Information" on the swine-flu pandemic:
By Louise Voller, Kristian Villesen

December 27. 2009

”We have had a mild flu - and a false pandemic,” says Wolfgang Wodarg, the chair of the Health Committee in The European Council. The German parliamentarian is also an epidemiologist and former health director in Flensburg. For that reason he has followed the H1N1-pandemic closely since June 11 and up to the present. He calls the pandemic "one of the greatest medical scandals of the century”, and for that reason he has decided to take the case to the European Council: ...


Edited due to copyright issues -- please see here for Fair Use info.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2011, 09:23:12 AM by Mr. Bill »

Offline Mr. Bill

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #94 on: February 01, 2011, 09:27:21 AM »
MODERATOR REMINDER: Please don't post articles unless they are clearly marked as legal to reproduce.  There really are copyright-troll lawyers out there, looking to extract "settlements" from infringing websites.  It's a pain in the butt for the mods to have to go edit these posts.

More info here: Copyright lawsuits, and posting of copyrighted articles

Thanks!

Offline surfivor

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #95 on: February 01, 2011, 09:51:01 AM »
MODERATOR REMINDER: Please don't post articles unless they are clearly marked as legal to reproduce.  There really are copyright-troll lawyers out there, looking to extract "settlements" from infringing websites.  It's a pain in the butt for the mods to have to go edit these posts.

More info here: Copyright lawsuits, and posting of copyrighted articles

Thanks!


 you can post part of an article but not the whole thing ?

 I seem to notice if I post just a link, people tend not to read it unless parts of it are pasted into the forum ..

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #96 on: February 01, 2011, 09:55:21 AM »
you can post part of an article but not the whole thing ?

 I seem to notice if I post just a link, people tend not to read it unless parts of it are pasted into the forum ..
Yes.
Like up to a paragraph or so as a summary.

I know its a pain and I believe its a stupid law, but we have to protect Jack's forum.

Offline bartsdad

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #97 on: February 01, 2011, 11:40:37 AM »
you can post part of an article but not the whole thing ?

 I seem to notice if I post just a link, people tend not to read it unless parts of it are pasted into the forum ..

Even if it is pasted into the forum, most (not all, but most) people only read a sentence or 2 of long posts.

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #98 on: February 01, 2011, 05:32:15 PM »
Even if it is pasted into the forum, most (not all, but most) people only read a sentence or 2 of long posts.

+20 lol

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #99 on: February 01, 2011, 06:43:05 PM »
Food for thought on the autism front:

For those who are really concerned about the saftey of your children, and we all should be here are some studies that find no link between Autism and Thimerosal (The mercury additive that was used in childhood vaccinations until 1999)

VSD Thimerosal and Autism Case Control Study: Prenatal and Infant Exposure to Thimerosal From Vaccines and Immunoglobulins and Risk of Autism. Published in Pediatrics online September 13, 2010

Autism and Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines: Lack of Consistent Evidence for an Association: Published in American Journal of Preventive Medicine, August 2003

Thimerosal Screening Study: Presented at the July 2001 IOM Meeting: Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines and Neurodevelopmental Outcomes: Published in Pediatrics, November 2003

Thimerosal Neurological Developmental Disorders (NDD) Follow-up Study: Published in New England Journal of Medicine, September 2007

Italy Thimerosal NDD Study: Published: Pediatrics, February 2009


Here are some papers that were published concerning MMR and the possible link to Autism.  In each of these studies there was no link established between the MMR vaccine and autism:

Denmark MMR/ Autism Study: Published in New England Journal of Medicine
November 2002 (2002; 347:1477-82)

Lack of Association between Measles Virus Vaccine and Autism with Enteropathy: A Case-Control Study: PLoS One (September 2008; 3(9): e3140. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0003140)

NIH MMR/ Regression Autism Study: Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders (2006 Apr;36(3):299-316).

Metropolitan Atlanta Developmental Disabilities Surveillance Program (MADDSP): Pediatrics (Feb 2004; 113(2):259-66).

The abstract for these papers can be read here, and yes, this is the CDC, so I know many of you will have a bias.
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/00_pdf/VSD_Chart_of_Autism_Studies-Updated_Sep_27_2010.pdf


Also from the CDC, and again, here is a report of the adverse reactions of the MMR vaccine from 1963-1993 (keep in mind these vaccines were distributed with possible mercury in them):

"More than 240 million doses of measles vaccine were distributed in the United States from 1963 through 1993. The vaccine has an excellent record of safety. From 5% to 15% of vaccinees may develop a temperature of greater than or equal to 103 F ( greater than or equal to 39.4 C) beginning 5-12 days after vaccination and usually lasting several days (19). Most persons with fever are otherwise asymptomatic. Transient rashes have been reported for approximately 5% of vaccinees. Central nervous system (CNS) conditions, including encephalitis and encephalopathy, have been reported with a frequency of less than one per million doses administered. The incidence of encephalitis or encephalopathy after measles vaccination of healthy children is lower than the observed incidence of encephalitis of unknown etiology. This finding suggests that the reported severe neurologic disorders temporally associated with measles vaccination were not caused by the vaccine. These adverse events should be anticipated only in susceptible vaccinees and do not appear to be age-related. After revaccination, most reactions should be expected to occur only among the small proportion of persons who failed to respond to the first dose. Personal and Family History of Convulsions "
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00046738.htm


So there are documeted side effects the the MMR vaccines.  Most include fever and rash, but there are reported incidents of severe reactions at a rate of less than one per million doses.

When you compare the saftey record of this vaccine over the last 240 million doses and compare that with the complications from measles-mumps-rubella, it appears to me that the vaccines benefits far outweigh the adverse side effects.

For instance:


Am J Public Health. 1980 Nov;70(11):1166-9.

Measles mortality in the United States 1971-1975.
Engelhardt SJ, Halsey NA, Eddins DL, Hinman AR
.

Abstract
During 1971-75, an average of 35.4 measles-related deaths were recorded each year; one death for every 1,000 measles cases reported. Measles mortality rate was highest in children under 1 year of age, as was the death-to-case ratio. Mortality rates were higher in non-metropolitan than in metropolitan counties. Measles mortality rates were inversely related to median family income.


This is from the WHO

http://www.who.int/immunization_monitoring/diseases/mumps_surveillance/en/index.html
Although the case-fatality rate of mumps encephalitis is low and overall mortality is 1/10 000 cases, permanent sequelae occur in about 25% of encephalitis cases. Mumps is a leading cause of acquired sensorineural deafness among children, affecting approximately 5/100 000 mumps patients

The benefits of vaccination for this vaccine seem to outweigh the effects of the illnesses.

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #100 on: February 01, 2011, 07:01:44 PM »
"But that's just what they want you to believe..."  ;)



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Offline joeinwv

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #101 on: February 01, 2011, 10:06:32 PM »
...

here is a lengthy 36 page article and research by Donald Scott in the journal of degenerative diseases on the how and why aids came from a lab:
http://www.blackopradio.com/Aids-made-in-America-Jourv5n3.pdf

...
So a former Canadian school teacher and would be political candidate starts his own "medical journal" and publishes papers. The first page he describes how he is not citing any sources and using lay language so as to not confuse the average reader.

I made it as far as page 6 when they start discussing how AIDS was being used to "...kill off 8000 Black and Brown skinned humans a day..." then it describes how chronic fatigue syndrome was developed as a mirror to AIDS as a disabling agent. When it referenced MKULTRA on page 7, I gave up.


Offline surfivor

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #102 on: February 02, 2011, 01:02:29 AM »
Quote
This is from the WHO

http://www.who.int/immunization_monitoring/diseases/mumps_surveillance/en/index.html
Although the case-fatality rate of mumps encephalitis is low and overall mortality is 1/10 000 cases, permanent sequelae occur in about 25% of encephalitis cases. Mumps is a leading cause of acquired sensorineural deafness among children, affecting approximately 5/100 000 mumps patients

 If all that is safe, then GMO food with vaccines built in and mosquitoes that administer vaccines must be safe as well.


 I'm glad that the world health organization says vaccines are safe, I was worried that GMO foods might be a problem, but here the WHO (not to be confused with Pete Townsend's group) alleviate those fears, there must be important studies on those too:

http://www.who.int/foodsafety/publications/biotech/20questions/en/

"GM foods currently available on the international market have passed risk assessments and are not likely to present risks for human health. In addition, no effects on human health have been shown as a result of the consumption of such foods by the general population in the countries where they have been approved. Continuous use of risk assessments based on the Codex principles and, where appropriate, including post market monitoring, should form the basis for evaluating the safety of GM foods."

here they make further reassurances:
http://www.gmoafrica.org/2005/06/who-reaffirms-safety-of-genetically.html

"The debate on the safety of genetically modified foods reached an important milestone, this week, when the World Health Organization (WHO), reaffirmed their safety. In fact, WHO said GM foods can contribute to enhancing human health and development.

These findings are contained in a report of a study conducted by eminent scientists from both developed and developing countries.

The study’s report, Modern food biotechnology, human health and development, allays widely held fears that GM foods pose health risks to consumers."






 yep, no worries or conspiring going on there .. I'm so glad that the eminent scientists actually still have some time to be watching out for us ..

 They also mention "codex principles". I think that also involves reclassifying basic vitamins as drugs and making sure you can only get them with a prescription .. yep, because Vitamin C might be dangerous, but not vaccines, stick those in the food and take the vitamins out ,,

Quote
So a former Canadian school teacher and would be political candidate starts his own "medical journal" and publishes papers. The first page he describes how he is not citing any sources and using lay language so as to not confuse the average reader.

 Joe, cool you read some of the paper. Why does it matter if he was a school teacher or ran for office ? He holds a masters degree in science, but I guess is self taught in degenerative diseases. If you want to learn things, there are many books available .. Spirko here never went to college and wonders why is it that they never teach you certain things in school like the federal reserve is a private club and stuff like that .. Is it because you don't need to know that or it's not important ?  I'm sure they probably leave out alot of whatever the CIA does from the historical record as well .. That's for damm sure .. It wouldn't surprise me a bit if you could get a PHD in history and hardly ever cover anything that the CIA ever did even though they help make alot of what happens to happen in one way or another ..

The unschooled Spirko also marvels that he was able to predict the 2008 market crash when none of the big name economists did.

  I guess if you wanted to mention anything controversial you'd have to start your own journal, otherwise whoever controls the journal wouldn't let you say what it is you wanted to or what you believed to be the truth. That sounds like how 90% of the media works ..

 I have heard there are other researchers who question AIDS being caused by HIV, and NotAGrasshopper who is on the pro vaccination side here apparently agrees that they diagnose people with AIDS who are suffering from malnutrition, bad drinking water or anything else that presents itself as a good way to get funding and bolster the victims of AIDS numbers out there. Where did those people go to school ?










« Last Edit: February 02, 2011, 02:29:05 AM by surfivor »

Offline Doc K

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #103 on: February 02, 2011, 04:31:32 AM »
I have heard there are other researchers who question AIDS being caused by HIV...
... agrees that they diagnose people with AIDS who are suffering from malnutrition, bad drinking water or anything else that presents itself as a good way to get funding and bolster the victims of AIDS numbers out there...

So, we are getting off topic a bit, but I think a little clarification is needed.

HIV is a virus (the human immunodeficiency virus). 
It destroys part of our immune system, specifically our CD4 cells (our blood has certain types of cells.  One of them is a lymphocyte.  Some lymphocytes are called T-helper cells aand have the ability to place a protein on their surface called CD4... hence, CD4 cells).

When the CD4 count drops below a certain point (less than 200 cells per microliter of blood to be exact), then a person has AIDS. 
AIDS (the auto-immune deficiency syndrome) is a classification of severe HIV infection.
There is no debate if HIV causes AIDS or not. 

There was a previous definition that said to be diagnosed with AIDS, a person had to have less than 200 CD4 cells AND certain types of infections that are almost exclusively present in a person with HIV infections (for instance, Kaposi's Sarcoma).  This is not used anymore. 

Anyone who doesn't understand this obviously has an extremely poor understanding of immunology and science in general.

In very poor areas (such as where I spent 6 weeks in a Nigeria at an HIV hospital), they cannot justify spending the money for monitoring CD4 counts. 
When the lab test costs more than the average person makes in a month, you have to use other ways to monitor HIV severity.
This is where using other markers like weekly weights come in, which can sometimes be confused with malnutrition. 

This is basic science.  This is basic immunology.  There is no conspiracy here.  To claim such serves only to again undermine your entire arguement.

When people buy into really bad information, instead of truly understanding the science and then discounting that bad information automatically, then they will believe anything that suits their preconceived ideas.  This is what I call blind faith (of which I do not believe).  It starts to make arguments that cannot be backed with real data sound a lot like a religion.

Doc K

Offline surfivor

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #104 on: February 02, 2011, 05:05:33 AM »
 I never said that I could prove that AIDS was not caused by HIV, I said I had heard there where some researchers who did not come to that conclusion. The Donald Scott fellow was one of the people who I heard about who delved into it a great deal, though I have heard other people talk about it, but I have not researched it a great deal ..


 Since many aspects of science are of a theoretical nature and theories are built ontop of other theories, it's not always clear what the truth really is and in some ways certain sciences tie into your health concerns and certainly the political realm as well and some knowledge of what goes on in other areas seems to be of some relevance.

 I can't prove that AIDS is a lab invention, but based on alot of things that I have seen I still think that that is a good explanation ..
I think Donald Scott says they put it into polio vaccinations and talks about some labs where they had monkeys and used monkey livers.


 Global warming is perhaps a good example where it may be that all kinds of experts are either corrupt or compartmentalized enough to think that what they see is part of the big picture, when perhaps it is not. 

 People like Richard Dawkins go off and get into writing books attacking religion and so on based on their own highly theoretical nature of biology and perhaps not understanding other things etc ..

 
 I am going to re listen to the Donald Scott interview I have on my IPod off of Black Op Radio. That show seems to have disappeared off of the internet, though I am still looking for it. It was an older show from a few years ago. I could perhaps figure out a way to get the mp3 to anyone who wanted to listen to it, not that I think it's going to change your mind etc ..




« Last Edit: February 02, 2011, 05:45:39 AM by surfivor »

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #105 on: February 02, 2011, 05:39:09 AM »
OK I have a few questions.

Have the scientific articles, which are referenced by their their abstracts, actually been read by the poster in its entirety?

Were the methods and conclusions questioned and understood?

Are you taking as evidence, the media reports and interviews?

Offline surfivor

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #106 on: February 02, 2011, 06:03:01 AM »
 I listened to a podcast interview of Donald Scott on black op radio a few years ago. That podcast episode seems to have been archived and is no longer available over the web. I posted an article that Scott wrote previously here in the forum. I did not read the whole thing but I assumed it covered many of the same details as the podcast. I am going to go back and listen to the podcast off of my IPod.

 I was able to find what appears to be a lengthy interview with Donald Scott on a Arizona radio station on and have posted it to the tin foil section if anyone wants to listen. If you don't want to listen, draw your own conclusions, whatever that's fine with me, but the stuff is below:


http://thesurvivalpodcast.com/forum/index.php?topic=24537.0


 I should make another point. I don't think Scott makes a claim that HIV is not caused AIDS. He describes govt connections, secret meetings, a few bio researchers with retro viruses, Rockafellars, lab works with monkeys, polio vaccinations and so on.

Scott traces HIV to Dr. Bjorn Sigurdsson from Iceland who worked on Versna retro virus with sheep
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visna_virus#Model_system_for_HIV_infection


=======================================
http://educate-yourself.org/cn/aidsmadeinamerica22sep05.shtml

"The 'scrapie' co-factor was developed by scientists who based their initial efforts upon the work of Dr. Bjorn Sigurdsson of Iceland; while the immune suppressing bacterial DNA particle (now known as the mycoplasmal species fermentans) was based upon the research of Dr. Robert Huebner and carried forward at the Wistar Institute of Philadelphia under Dr. Hilary Koprowski and at Tulane University under Dr. Alton Ochsner. The Mycoplasma fermentans was grown on monkey kidneys with Tulane utilizing the kidneys of the rhesus monkey and Wistar utilizing the kidneys of the chimpanzee."
========================================


 Basically it was many years ago, possibly 15, 20 years or more that I first heard someone say that it wasn't clear that AIDS was caused by HIV and that people in Africa where dying from other things attributed to AIDS. At the time I found that really startling.  The Donald Scott stuff I listened to was many years latter in 2008.

 I apologize as I realize I created some confusion and was not careful or specific in my general criticism of how AIDS research in Africa has been going based on my perception and mixed up the Donald Scott stuff with other stuff I had heard previously. The thing with saying AIDS is not caused by HIV might be like saying that certain people diagnosed with AIDS didn't have HIV because of the diagnosis process. 



 So Doc, they can't really afford to diagnose people properly but our govt can spend millions on sending vaccines and so on ever there ? Sorry, I don't know it seems a little weird ..

  but how did you like it over there ? get any time to see the country ? I was on a kenyan safari when I was in high school. Mostly stayed in the hotel or van, too many dangerous animals, snakes and so on for us white folks to be allowed to get out and walk around .. I mostly ate exotic meals at the hotel and then suffered from stomach aches and such because I couldn't get any exercise to work it off.

« Last Edit: February 02, 2011, 08:57:06 AM by surfivor »

Offline NotAGrasshopper

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #107 on: February 02, 2011, 01:26:17 PM »
There is no debate if HIV causes AIDS or not. 

I think there is plenty of reason to question whether infection with HIV is sufficient to cause AIDS, though. 

Doc, I'm curious:  Why do you think AIDS hasn't exploded in the general population?  Every other viral disease I've ever heard of - especially the viral STDs - is all over the heterosexual population and men and women seem to be infected in roughly equal proportions.  HIV doesn't seem to act like a normal virus - it discriminates against certain subgroups (mainly homosexuals, IV drug users and Africans in Africa).  Why?






Offline surfivor

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #108 on: February 02, 2011, 01:49:16 PM »
Quote
I made it as far as page 6 when they start discussing how AIDS was being used to "...kill off 8000 Black and Brown skinned humans a day..." then it describes how chronic fatigue syndrome was developed as a mirror to AIDS as a disabling agent. When it referenced MKULTRA on page 7, I gave up.

 I started listening to the podcast. Scott seems to imply that the MK in MKULTRA stands for "Monkey Kidney" and that
virus research was done in New Orleans on a large CIA run Rhesus monkey farm with the kidneys of the monkeys, possibly somehow associated with research at Tulane University ..

 There was also a CIA program called MK-DELTA which he said Delta refers to Mississippi delta of that area ..

 I have seen that in AIDS research, Rhesus Monkeys are sometimes involved ..

 Typically MKULTRA seems to be associated with a CIA mind control program, but there may be some implications that various programs have subprograms, other things going on, not sure ..

 Scott then goes on to say that at a Camp Lindi in the Congo originally set up with a scientist named Hillary Koprowski associated with the Rockafellar family I guess, experiments where done with chimps to create polio vaccines which apparently did work for polio, but Africans that where vaccinated developed AIDS within 5 years.

 I did find some stuff on that:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/aids-the-new-accusation-697771.html

AIDS: The new accusation

THE CHARGE: That what became the Aids virus was passed from chimp to man during experiments in the Congo to find a cure for polio. THE JURY: The world's leading Aids scientists, gathering in London next week to hear evidence at the Royal Society. THE VERDICT: will once and for all clear up one of medicine's greatest mysteries

--------------

other stuff:

http://www.uow.edu.au/~/bmartin/dissent/documents/AIDS/LRBletters03.html

 this is a movie you can get on this, but also has a long summary:
http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4180645/CBC_-_Witness-_The_Origin_of_AIDS_-_Polio_Vaccine_-_Conspiracy

very interesting stuff here on this same theory of AIDS from Camp Lindi I guess and the debate around that, haven't read it yet. Almost seems like maybe there is more evidence on this than I realized including some questions raised by the Royal Society and Atlantic magazine ..

http://www.bmartin.cc/dissent/documents/AIDS/Hooper04/Hooper04refuteb.html

http://www.politics.ie/health-social-affairs/119313-did-polio-vaccination-infect-millions-people-aids.html

http://rstb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/356/1410/831.full.pdf

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2000/10/the-hunt-for-the-origin-of-aids/6490/



----------------------------


 Quite a few black people seem to think AIDS is a bio weapon, if you recall Obama's pastor Jeremiah Wright  made some such comment back in 2008 ..  I guess I read that 30% of Blacks in NYC polled said they believed AIDS was a bio weapon ..
« Last Edit: February 02, 2011, 03:04:44 PM by surfivor »

Offline Darkwinter

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #109 on: February 02, 2011, 07:42:47 PM »
OK I have a few questions.

Have the scientific articles, which are referenced by their their abstracts, actually been read by the poster in its entirety?

Were the methods and conclusions questioned and understood?

Are you taking as evidence, the media reports and interviews?

I have not read all of the studies, and honestly, I am not a doctor.  I find it difficult to read medical journals, as I do not understand fully the vocabulary used.  Please note that it is MY opinion that the MMR vaccine appears to be a very safe vaccine.   I stated my opinon in my post.  For those who do not believe that the MMR vaccine is relatively safe, I have posted some studies that you can read up on to make the decision for yourself.

I feel that many vaccines have a net benefit; MMR, Smallpox are two examples.

Surf, I understand your concern about sources like the WHO and the CDC. And I applaud your retort with the saftey of GMO foods.  Great stuff, and you may be right.  GMO's have not been studied that long, and they are doing MORE and MORE with GMO crops.  Today's GMO's may not be as safe as the WHO states.   But regarding these sources, it is important to look at both sides.  Listening to and alt source is ok.  It's good.  There is nothing wrong with it.

But advocating that a group of doctors are incompetant and alt sources are all knowing seems just as insane as thinking doctors are always right.  Doctors do not always have the correct info.  Doctors make mistakes.  But there are over 240 million does of this stuff out there.  That is a HUGE sample group to study over the course of 30+ years.  The vaccines APPEAR to be proven safer than cars . . . and everyone drives.


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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #110 on: February 02, 2011, 07:45:26 PM »
And HIV has no vaccine.  It is not related to Autism.  And the idea that it was created by man for some sinister purpose is a discussion for another thread.  This topic has been jumping a lot.  Lets keep it to Autism and other saftey related issues with vaccines.

Offline joeinwv

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #111 on: February 02, 2011, 08:21:35 PM »
Doc K - I appreciate the specificity of your responses. I do not know if you are an MD or not, but it appears you have some good knowledge.

The scientific method is based on having a theory that you can test under laboratory conditions and is reproducible.

A large group of red herrings does not imply proof of any sort.

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #112 on: February 02, 2011, 08:59:47 PM »

The scientific method is based on having a theory that you can test under laboratory conditions and is reproducible.

A large group of red herrings does not imply proof of any sort.


I'm not following you on this - please expand this thesis

Offline joeinwv

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #113 on: February 02, 2011, 09:45:45 PM »
I'm not following you on this - please expand this thesis
Hold onto your hat brother - we're about to go down the rabbit hole:

John F. Kennedy was shot and killed.
John Paul II was shot at, but not killed.
Ronald Regan was shot at by - get this - JOHN Hinckley.
Hinckley was from Oklahoma.
Oklahoma was bombed by Timothy McVeigh in 1995.
1+9+9+5 = 24
24 is a show with Keifer Sutherland.
Keifer Sutherland's father is Donald Sutherland.
Donald Sutherland played "X" in Oliver Stone's movie - get this JFK!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I just pulled this together off the top of my head. Bunch of random garbage - but you draw some loose associations and all of a sudden it seems like evidence of something.

Hey Cohutt, here's my favorite red herring joke:

Q: What do a penguin and an umbrella have in common?

A: Pizza, because a suitcase has a handle!

Offline Doc K

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #114 on: February 03, 2011, 12:06:25 AM »
Hold onto your hat brother - we're about to go down the rabbit hole:

John F. Kennedy was shot and killed.
John Paul II was shot at, but not killed.
Ronald Regan was shot at by - get this - JOHN Hinckley.
Hinckley was from Oklahoma.
Oklahoma was bombed by Timothy McVeigh in 1995.
1+9+9+5 = 24
24 is a show with Keifer Sutherland.
Keifer Sutherland's father is Donald Sutherland.
Donald Sutherland played "X" in Oliver Stone's movie - get this JFK!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I just pulled this together off the top of my head. Bunch of random garbage - but you draw some loose associations and all of a sudden it seems like evidence of something.

Hey Cohutt, here's my favorite red herring joke:

Q: What do a penguin and an umbrella have in common?

A: Pizza, because a suitcase has a handle!


I should have swallowed the blue pill...

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #115 on: February 03, 2011, 04:37:08 AM »
Exactly.......it is this kind of logic and association that allows me to justify purchase of additional tools and firearms to my spouse.

I think.


Seriously:

This thread seems to have run its course and now drifts in and out of the TFH neighborhood. 





« Last Edit: February 03, 2011, 04:49:48 AM by cohutt »

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Re: Vaccine-Autism link... The article that started it all - being thrown out.
« Reply #116 on: February 03, 2011, 06:01:40 AM »

Note: After much discussion the moderators have locked this thread.
Its not due to any one person's posts, it just seems the thread has gone as far as it can go.
For the time being, we will leave the thread where it is since it has some very high quality content that folks can find helpful.

I want to thank each and every contributor to this thread and I want to thank you all for your civility.
Thank you.
HoC