Author Topic: IVs.  (Read 17598 times)

Offline cheryl1

  • Survival Demonstrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 2318
  • Karma: 79
    • Russell Honey
Re: IVs.
« Reply #30 on: October 22, 2011, 12:08:15 PM »
Maybe, I never had the heart to work with sick kids. I've always worked in adult medicine.

Offline FreeLancer

  • Global Moderator
  • Survival Veteran
  • ******
  • Posts: 6640
  • Karma: 817
Re: IVs.
« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2011, 12:18:22 PM »
How about an intraosseous access kit?  Does anyone have one with their IV supplies?  I would think this could be a lot more reliable way to get fluids into a severely volume depleted individual in SHTF conditions. 

It's been over a dozen years since my 18 months as an anesthesia resident (I hated it, so switched specialties) so my skills are quite rusty, but I remember having difficulty getting IV access on trauma and pediatric patients and making the decision to induce anesthesia inhalationally for the benefit of vasodilation in order to start lines.  And we never put in 14g lines until they were under, because the vasodilation made it so easy.  But we always had an IO kit available (I never had to use one) in case we couldn't get a line going and needed emergency backup for fluids and meds. 

Obviously, having access to an anesthesia machine probably won't be an option in a SHTF scenario and if you can't see it or feel it because they are that far behind on fluids, chances are not good that you'll hit it.  I can see myself futzing around in the mud and the blood and cursing a blue streak trying to get IV access.  Seems like an IO line could really save the day.  If I ever get around to storing some NS or LR (I'm still a little skeptical of their ultimate utility) I think I'll definitely throw in some IO kits.

Offline Cedar

  • ...just aDD water...
  • TSP Supreme Galactic Ant
  • ************
  • Posts: 28429
  • Karma: 1398
  • Dont wait for the storm to pass, dance in the rain
Re: IVs.
« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2011, 12:33:16 PM »
but I remember having difficulty getting IV access on trauma and pediatric patients

Why not SQ for just fluid rehydration? We do that for animals which we question kidney function.

Cedar

Offline FreeLancer

  • Global Moderator
  • Survival Veteran
  • ******
  • Posts: 6640
  • Karma: 817
Re: IVs.
« Reply #33 on: October 22, 2011, 01:32:58 PM »
Why not SQ for just fluid rehydration? We do that for animals which we question kidney function.

Cedar

That's the great thing about this forum, always something to learn.  I've never seen SQ rehydration, but my wife (the "real" doctor) tells me they do it in Canada and Europe, but not so much in the US.  It is probably not as effective for trauma resuscitation but could be a viable option for dehydration from GI issues.  Medication administration might be trickier for some types of IV drugs, although my wife does SQ opiates and benzodiazepines in her hospice patients all the time, with great results.

So when done in animals, do you inject into the scruff of the neck? 

Offline Cedar

  • ...just aDD water...
  • TSP Supreme Galactic Ant
  • ************
  • Posts: 28429
  • Karma: 1398
  • Dont wait for the storm to pass, dance in the rain
Re: IVs.
« Reply #34 on: October 22, 2011, 04:03:43 PM »
So when done in animals, do you inject into the scruff of the neck?

Slightly below the scruff, but if you have to stick them twice a day for days in a row, pretty much anywhere you find a spot is fair game. Also sometimes you have to redirect it if that place gets 'full'. If it starts getting tight, cats will often bite at it.

Cedar

Offline drthumbs

  • Survivalist Mentor
  • *****
  • Posts: 446
  • Karma: 51
Re: IVs.
« Reply #35 on: October 24, 2011, 09:53:12 AM »
Just went and checked our supply room at the hospital: 18g green, 20g pink, 22g blue, 24g yellow
16G is grey
14G is orange


Offline Leonidas

  • Prepper
  • **
  • Posts: 43
  • Karma: 3
  • I am who I am.
Re: IVs.
« Reply #36 on: November 01, 2011, 04:58:09 PM »
I have to ask why you would want to administer IV fluids to someone?

Here my line of thought:
Extreme Trauma GSW / Hypovolemia (lose of circulating blood) that sounds real enough, so you administer IV fluids but then what, the person is still loosing fluid, my point being if you have Trauma management equipment such as IV fluids, do you have the facilities and skills to address the reasons why Trauma management was needed in the first place.

Or are you close enough to seek better medical care once the Trauma management has been addressed, if so why not just let them give fluids

Offline Cedar

  • ...just aDD water...
  • TSP Supreme Galactic Ant
  • ************
  • Posts: 28429
  • Karma: 1398
  • Dont wait for the storm to pass, dance in the rain
Re: IVs.
« Reply #37 on: November 01, 2011, 05:27:26 PM »
I have to ask why you would want to administer IV fluids to someone?

Vomiting and severe dehydration? I was thinking actually along these lines VS injury.

Cedar


Offline FreeLancer

  • Global Moderator
  • Survival Veteran
  • ******
  • Posts: 6640
  • Karma: 817
Re: IVs.
« Reply #38 on: November 01, 2011, 05:58:28 PM »
Here my line of thought:
Extreme Trauma GSW / Hypovolemia (lose of circulating blood) that sounds real enough, so you administer IV fluids but then what, the person is still loosing fluid, my point being if you have Trauma management equipment such as IV fluids, do you have the facilities and skills to address the reasons why Trauma management was needed in the first place.

That's my thinking, too.  I'm skeptical about storing IV fluids for trauma.  Maybe for dehydration, maybe.

endurance

  • Guest
Re: IVs.
« Reply #39 on: November 02, 2011, 11:14:22 AM »
The only time we've ever needed IV fluids around the 'stead has been for pet care when there was serious vomiting and/or diarrhea. 

I have been away from medical care (mountain biking and camping near Moab) with a friend who got (suspected) salmonella and couldn't retain fluids as fast as he was losing them.  That was the one time I wished I would have had a bag of normal saline with me.  Eventually we got him to the hospital, but I think he was less than 24 hours away from renal failure.  His skin was tenting pretty bad.

When it comes to pandemic flu prep, that's where I see having IVs as an important piece of kit.

Offline conservative01

  • Survivor
  • ***
  • Posts: 176
  • Karma: 4
  • Remember, you create your own anxiety.
Re: IVs.
« Reply #40 on: November 02, 2011, 11:56:12 AM »
Having IV fluids for other fluid loss issues are great but having the knowledge of how, when, and what situations to use IV fluids is golden. Using fluids for trauma is not that useful unless you have the expections of surgical backstop. Just my mileage :)

Offline Wrekz

  • Prepper
  • **
  • Posts: 12
  • Karma: 0
  • New TSP Forum member
Re: IVs.
« Reply #41 on: December 01, 2011, 01:11:04 PM »
I would definitely have to agree with the majority of the posts on this thread stating that they aren't worth carrying.  The number of situations in which someone's life hinges on starting an IV and no other options are available does not warrant the loss of space or the added weight of carrying a kit in you BOB.  Not that the situations aren't out there, but I just can't justify carrying all of the supplies. 

Offline Cedar

  • ...just aDD water...
  • TSP Supreme Galactic Ant
  • ************
  • Posts: 28429
  • Karma: 1398
  • Dont wait for the storm to pass, dance in the rain
Re: IVs.
« Reply #42 on: December 01, 2011, 01:38:20 PM »
When I worked for the clinics I always brought home the expired saline in the 500ml and 1000ml sizes. I used them for flushing wounds and eyes.

Cedar

Offline Ronin4hire

  • Senior Survivalist
  • ****
  • Posts: 228
  • Karma: 8
  • Chance favours the prepared mind.
Re: IVs.
« Reply #43 on: December 03, 2011, 10:52:24 AM »
IV access is tough for a patient with severe dehydration or fluid volume/trauma blood loss.  Its a perishable fine motor skill so unless you do it often, its not something you can safely & reliable do under stress.    IO kits are rather pricey powertools but an old fashioned Jamshidi manual needle is a nice standby.  IO allows for fluid and med infusion.     In dire circumstances, "PR" access for administering fluids to dehydrated patient is much easier and safer than SQ   Fluid in "thru the backdoor" doesnt really work if the patient is actively emptying fluid from that area however!!!   

Offline FreeLancer

  • Global Moderator
  • Survival Veteran
  • ******
  • Posts: 6640
  • Karma: 817
Re: IVs.
« Reply #44 on: December 03, 2011, 05:17:46 PM »
This sternal IO kit looks pretty slick.  Anyone have any experience with it?

http://www.pyng.com/products/fast1/clinical-and-technical-information/demo/?pi=49

Offline LibertyBelle

  • Munches with goats...
  • Dedicated Contributor
  • ******
  • Posts: 1354
  • Karma: 58
Re: IVs.
« Reply #45 on: December 03, 2011, 10:16:37 PM »
Why not SQ for just fluid rehydration? We do that for animals which we question kidney function.

I agree.  Around here, just about everyone that has and is serious about their livestock has a supply of IV kits and solution on hand, and won't be without if we can help it.  A couple of the 4-H leaders even teach the kids who take livestock project how to SQ with an IV solution.  The kits and solutions are all sterile and no different then those used at the hospital, so I wouldn't hesitate to use them on myself if needed. 

Offline DrBonesandNurseAmy

  • Fledgling Prepper
  • *
  • Posts: 7
  • Karma: 0
  • New TSP Forum member
Re: IVs.
« Reply #46 on: January 16, 2012, 03:15:29 PM »
hi,

18 and 20g IV catheters would be more useful in most settings...

Dr. Bones