Author Topic: Do they know what they are doing?  (Read 4823 times)

Offline ColdHaven

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Do they know what they are doing?
« on: February 07, 2009, 11:11:27 AM »
I have asked this question before, but I want to ask it again. Do they know what they are doing? I mean Congress, The White House, the Government, the President. Perhaps this needs to be in the tin foil hat portion, but I think they do know what they are doing. If we can figure this stuff out and know that all of this is bad mojo for the United States then I am sure the people in Government know that it is bad for the United States. Yet they continue to do it.

I am talking about the economic situation we are in. They keep making decision after decision that is slowly but surely choking the hell out of America financially. Many of these elected officials have friends in business and banks. They know doing stuff like this is going to cause the dollar to collapse. They know it is going to spark a Depression. They know that spending all this money is going to cause a worldwide financial shitstorm. How can I be so sure? What proof do I have? You can't make this many dumb mistakes without it being on purpose.

Am I to believe that creating a bogus Stimulus Package which would drive us even further into debt and not create jobs is a sincere effort to fix our economy? Am I to think that bailing out banks is a sincere investment into the actual welfare of our nation? Am I to believe that they are making the SAME exact mistakes that they did before the first Great Depression by mistake? I think this is on purpose to subjugate the majority of people.

You keep a culture subjugated to the government by keeping them poor, not allowing them access to information, and using laws to enforce their wishes. Use of religion has been used to help back up government and vice versa throughout history. Whether it was the Spanish Inquisition or the political propaganda spread by Confucius via Buddhism in China. I am not saying religion itself is bad, but it has been used many times to get the government and those in power what they want. It was a main reason for the Seperation of Church and State in the Constitution.

They do not allow us access to information. This has happened in many forms in the recent past from not allowing access to documents through the Freedom of Information Act to massive infusions of propaganda and disinformation via mainstream media. If you keep an country dumb and oblivious to what is going on, brainwash them into thinking what they are saying is virtuous, and not allow access to information then you are controlling your citizens. This is similar to what Jack was talking about with the sleight of hand trick the government is doing with the Stimulus package and the corrupt CEOs. Disinformation is more powerful than blocking all access to information. If you can confuse you can conquer.

Now, about us being kept poor. If everything bottoms out who makes out with the money? The bankers. More importantly the ones specifically who will make out with all the money will be those attached to the Federal Bank. Everyone else will owe them money, including the government, and by defaulting on their loans they will have to give up all their money to them. If the scenario ends like how it seems it will then there will be a liquidation of the middle class.

Now, does this mean this is what the government is doing? To me it seems that way. Maybe it does not seem this way to even a few of you. However, if once you start believing that they are causing this financial and economical decline on purpose you start to wonder to what purpose would they do such a thing. To me, this might be one of several reasons. Control and Power.

Maybe I am just ranting because I am so angry at our Government right now. They are making so many mistakes and causing us to fall into a hole that I am not sure how long it will take to crawl out of. I do not like what I see. I hope I am wrong. I want to believe that at least some people in power and in Congress want to do the right thing and that by trying to do the right thing they keep tripping over their egos. I want to believe that this Country is the same Country it was when it was founded. I want to believe in my fellow Americans.

Yet, to me they seem to keep making mistakes that even a rookie in economics could figure out. I am not a stockbroker and neither am I merchant, but I can see that what they are doing makes NO financial sense. If someone keeps making mistakes are they doing it on purpose? Most of us like to think that they are just idiots, but I don't think so. They are strategists and politicians. They got to where they are via strategy. They continue to be in power because of strategy. They are not dumb and I think they are doing it on purpose. Does anyone else think so?

Allerion

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Re: Do they know what they are doing?
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2009, 08:14:47 PM »
Yes. :)
Other governments are worse off and we are in a no-lose situation as far as comparitive national "power" is concerned.

If we can finance our way out of this using other nation's money we win.  This also strengthens the dollar.
If the dollar falls we can export our way out as labor and manufacturing here will have a competitive advantage over other nations like China did up until six months ago.  Again we win.

The most likely result lies in between the two, as protectionist measures will become popular everywhere worldwide.  Every nation wants to export their way out of this downturn by weakening their currency.  That is the least painful exit from a downturn, but it does not work when everyone is trying to do it at once.  Currently many nations are attempting to do this by propping up the dollar.  They are doing this out of pure self-interest, not because they love the United States.  This means the likely outcome is the first of the two above.  This also puts us in the Japanese "lost decade" scenario where we can expect a long period of a strong dollar, low interest rates, and very slow growth but tame unemployment.  This outcome relies on a protracted period of extreme government spending coupled with continued willingness of foreign countries to finance our spending.  This outcome is highly likely.

I don't believe our leadership wishes to keep our people subjugated.  I do believe our companies wish to keep us consuming regularly but also at a sustainable level.  Nobody prospers by making their people poor or by bankrupting their customers.  Look how well that worked out for mortgage lenders! :)  Having run a number of businesses I'll say in a heartbeat that the best customers are the rich.  Similarly a rich and well educated population is much easier to lead than an impoverished one.  Look how well governments run in poverty-stricken countries.  The government has zero benefit from keeping people dumb or poor. :)

Offline chris

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Re: Do they know what they are doing?
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2009, 08:22:52 PM »
I don't believe our leadership wishes to keep our people subjugated. 

I think that tells you all you need to know about him Coldhaven.

Offline Spamity Calamity

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Re: Do they know what they are doing?
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2009, 09:09:16 PM »
Well this stuff really isnt rocket science. They are blatantly ignoring all common sense and protocol and purposefully driving us down farther into the ground. So yes I think that they know what they are doing unfortunately they want America to suffer the way it is in order to create a class of voters beholden to the welfare system.

Tommy Jefferson

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Re: Do they know what they are doing?
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2009, 09:40:43 AM »
They are not dumb and I think they are doing it on purpose. Does anyone else think so?

I know so.  Government is a grand rip-off scheme.  The more of it there is, the more people get ripped off.

They use flowery promises of working for "the common good" of promoting "safety" and upholding "justice".  Those are lies.  Only fools believe them.  It's a racket plain and simple.

Offline ColdHaven

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Re: Do they know what they are doing?
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2009, 10:00:30 AM »
I guess complaining about it really does no good in the long run, but it just seems to me that no one sees it this way. I guess the reason I mentioned it was to see how many people thought that this was true. I hope more people are starting to see that our government is not trying to help us. It is trying to subjugate us. It doesn't matter. Republican, Democrat, they are both in it together playing off of each other to obtain the same objective. I mean it is pretty bad when Jon Stewart is able to point out that the speeches of Obama and Bush are almost the same. If you want proof I will have to find the video to link on here, but it is on Comedy Central on one of the videos near the beginning of the year. They have the same agenda and they are playing off of each other to obtain it. Dissention causes confusion. Dissention divides people, and most of us know that saying about divide and conquer.

Offline Spamity Calamity

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Re: Do they know what they are doing?
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2009, 02:14:31 PM »
I guess complaining about it really does no good in the long run, but it just seems to me that no one sees it this way. I guess the reason I mentioned it was to see how many people thought that this was true. I hope more people are starting to see that our government is not trying to help us. It is trying to subjugate us. It doesn't matter. Republican, Democrat, they are both in it together playing off of each other to obtain the same objective. I mean it is pretty bad when Jon Stewart is able to point out that the speeches of Obama and Bush are almost the same. If you want proof I will have to find the video to link on here, but it is on Comedy Central on one of the videos near the beginning of the year. They have the same agenda and they are playing off of each other to obtain it. Dissention causes confusion. Dissention divides people, and most of us know that saying about divide and conquer.

I totally agree with you. Just take comfort that you arent crazy you are here amongst friends and yeah we are a small minority of people that think this way, as the government gets worse and makes more and more people miserable we wil grow I think. If you ever find that video let me know because I have a few friends on the fence about Obama that I would love to email it to.

Offline ColdHaven

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Tommy Jefferson

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Re: Do they know what they are doing?
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2009, 08:58:51 PM »
I hope more people are starting to see that our government is not trying to help us. It is trying to subjugate us. It doesn't matter. Republican, Democrat, they are both in it together playing off of each other to obtain the same objective.

The more people realize this, the better off we will be.

People have suffered a lifetime of political indoctrination in public schools.  This indoctrination teaches them that government is benevolent, thus, the more of it there is, the better.


Offline ColdHaven

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Re: Do they know what they are doing?
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2009, 09:04:28 PM »
Makes you wonder how we somehow escaped it.


Offline DarkEyes

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Re: Do they know what they are doing?
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2009, 09:59:27 PM »
Coldhaven--I think you're spot on.  Have they posted a copy of the stimulus package anywhere yet?  I haven't been able to find it. 

Offline TXChikk

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Re: Do they know what they are doing?
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2009, 07:13:14 AM »
Coldhaven--I think you're spot on.  Have they posted a copy of the stimulus package anywhere yet?  I haven't been able to find it. 

Darkeyes I am also unable to find it. I came across it late last week but the same info is no longer up. I *assume* it's no longer posted because it has undergone amendments recently???

Coldhaven I agree with you. I do think they know what they are doing. Their actions are from greed and all about power and control. They have sucked the life out of America and will turn to global sucking. The big wigs in power do not care about individual nations, only being in control of everything.

Offline Stein

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Re: Do they know what they are doing?
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2009, 11:47:39 AM »
Geitner was the head of NY FED for 15 years.  Did they get it right so far?

Summers was also heavily involved during the Clinton administration as Sec Treas.  Did he get it right so far?

It is the same cast of characters that drove the buss off the cliff.  Why would they suddenly know what to do?

Allerion

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Re: Do they know what they are doing?
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2009, 01:32:15 PM »
With all due respect, I DO think you guys are nuts. :)

Government IS the people, at least in this country.  For every Skull and Bones member there are hundreds of "normal" americans that for the most part got involved with government because they wanted to fix a problem.  There is no unified plan to screw the public.  Members of government ARE the public and their friends and families are the public.  Sure there are bad eggs in government but there are bad eggs everywhere.  You or I are free to run for office and do our best to make the changes we want to see made.  Hell Jack has a 3,000 vote base already and with the economy like it is he could have over 100,000 supporters in another year as his message is so popular.  (We all like it or we would not be here.)  So if Jack becomes Mayor of Dallas or Governor of Texas...do they remove his brain and replace it with some new crazy human-dominating alien device?  No.  Do people run around accusing him of being dozens of things that he is not?  Yes!  Will people interpret his attempts to make life better for his constituency as being out to screw them?  Of course!  If you take the time to actually stop in and visit the theoretical "Governor Jack" you'll find he's the same guy he always was, just doing the best he knows how.  He does not become part of the "great government conspiracy" when he gets elected.

We all have a lot in common on this forum, but have MANY areas of strong disagreement.  Government is the same.  They do their best to determine the best policies for the country and its people.  Sometimes they lie.  Often the omit the truth.  They do these things because in their judgement it is the most politically savvy way to get what they believe needs to be done done.  Most politicians are skilled negotiators and search for win-win situations, but when someone has to get screwed in order for you to win, they do their best to make sure its the other guy that gets screwed.  We have an exceptionally high standard of living because we regularly screw other nations.  Like ALL national governments, our government acts in what it believes to be the best interests of the American people.  Luckily for us, they are much better at it than other governments, resulting in our current status as the largest world economy and largest military power, both by HUGE margins.  Thinking that our government is out to screw us is pretty tin-foil-hat in my opinion.  This is not to say we should not watch out for a bad leader or a handful of bad leaders, but even if every member of government at the federal level was corrupt and on the same side, even then we still have state governments that will stand up and say "Hey...we're not on board with this BS." 

Just a little contrasting opinion from the other side of the fence!  :)

Offline ColdHaven

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Re: Do they know what they are doing?
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2009, 03:00:34 PM »
A welcomed view Allerion, but nothing about what you said has explained why they continue to make bush-league (pardon the pun) mistakes. Explain to me why Government keeps getting bigger and bigger? Explain to me why those elected officials continually try to take our freedoms away? Tell me why these same elected officials didn't warn us about a recession until we were already well into it and they could not hide it any more? Why are they taking hand-outs from lobbists? Why is Obama's tune after being elected the same as Bush's? I thought they didn't like each other....

Perhaps it seems tinfoil-hattish. However, it never seems that way when you are stuck in a tyrannical government. Not to me. All around me I see corruption and power plays. Does this mean I am into conspiracy theories? Not really. They are too involved. What I am saying is something very simple. When you start asking questions to yourself about how your government is run you start to see a pattern. From what I can tell either they are all VERY stupid (which I guarantee you they are not) or they are trying to manipulate the American public. It can't be both.

I want to be proved wrong. People like Ron Paul do that. I want Obama and others to be the just and loyal Americans that would make this nation proud. I want that very badly, but time after time they disappoint me. I don't like where this country is headed. If you do, thats fine, but I don't. If they were actually acting in a way to benefit their fellow Americans they would not have gotten us into another Depression, they would not have bailed out these banks and companies, and they sure would have spent money on a Stimulus package that, I don't know....stimulates the economy.

We are a world super power. For now. Just remember: Rome, France, Germany...all of them had the symbol of an Eagle, all of them were world super powers, and ALL of them fell. I just hope we never repeat their mistakes. I am afraid that before the state governments stand up to protest that it will already be too late. It would not take much as this point to lose our spot as world leader. We need to be vigilant. We need to be more outspoken, and outraged that all of these things are being done without our consent. We should not idly sit by while they throw our culture and country away. We need to be fierce and scare the shit out of them that they will no longer dictate what this country does. WE DO.

You were right about us being the government. That is our right. However, how many poor and homeless people do you see in the Senate. The House maybe? Maybe one day we will have a bum as President. (Come on, I made that one easy). Anyone from Brooklyn, Harlem, Compton who are US senators? What I am trying to say is that this country is ran by businessmen and the friends of businessmen. What they do and decide is based on what will get them the most contributions so they can be elected next time. Those who want to run for congress are free to do so, but without cash it is almost impossible.

However, We are the People for which this nation stands. We should be the government. And the way to do that is to make that proxy of a congressman afraid for his job. Make him be our voice. Its time we make them our puppet instead of the other way around. As a nation, I think this is possible, but it is going to take more people getting upset enough to get their attention. I do not like the direction of this country, and nor do I trust those whom we have placed in power to do what is right, and so I think it is time for us to reaffirm ourselves as the true govenors of this land. We, as citizens of the United States, can once again be the voice of this nation. It takes not being led around by the nose by your Congressman, and it takes waking up to the fact that they are milking you for all you are worth, and it isn't for your best interest either.

Anyway, I have ranted enough. However, thanks for your contribution to the topic Allerion. I respect your opinion, but I humbly disagree entirely.

Offline Stein

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Re: Do they know what they are doing?
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2009, 03:48:27 PM »
My honest belief is that those who are "serving the people" are in the vast minority by the time we get to the congressional level.  Maybe 5-10% at the maximum.  The others are simply paid shills for corporations and wall street.

The reason Obama's administration is no different is that he has placed the same shills in the same positions and we are idiots if we believe there will be different outcomes.

Why do they continue to vote for more money?

1.  Their real supporters, financial supporters, lobby for more money and less regulation.
2.  They simply don't understand the situation and believe the fear presentations by the FED and Sec Treas.
3.  They simply bow to their party's whip to improve re-election prospects.
4.  They are more concerned with bringing home pork to their state to improve re-election prospects.

What else is there?  Is there anyone who can make the argument that this stimulus or the one last year were effective uses of money in the people's best interest?  Can anybody explain why the citizens of 49 other states are about to fund a tunnel in Seattle that they will never use or see?  Or why I am funding a baseball park in Montana or a library in Arkansas?  Or how stop smoking programs with create jobs?  Or how people who pay $0 in taxes get a "refund" of a thousand or two?  Or why a company who is begging for money and laying off tens of thousands is paying a hefty dividend and employee bonuses?  Logic has fled the country.

The only reason is that "we are in dire times and need swift action."  They don't even bother defending the merits of the legislation anymore.

Allerion

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Re: Do they know what they are doing?
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2009, 05:19:12 PM »
I know Jack uses that phrase "Make them afraid for their jobs" in reference to politicians, but every single politician I've ever known took a pay cut to go into politics.  Face it, you have to be pretty much financially independent BEFORE you become a full time politician.  I've never known an elected official that was afraid for their job other than due to the same fears we all have.  They fear their opponent will "ruin" the town, county, state, or country.  They don't fear for themselves.

They continue to vote for the stimulus because the "experts" tell them it is necessary.  I am in agreement with them though I seem to be pretty lonely in that opinion on this forum. :)  I must say I'm frustrated with myself for failing to convince anyone else here that the additional spending is neccessary.  Perhaps I need a whiteboard. :)

Point by point on Stein's comments:
1.Their real supporters lost a ton of money to incompetent wall street leaders, hedge fund managers, and an increasing number of just plain frauds.  They want to see a lot of these guys swing from the rafters and I don't see anyone too upset about that.
2.Somewhat true.  They have expert policy advisors on just about everything from tobacco and drug legislation to monetary policy.  It is normal for industries and schools to prepare "expert briefs" to teach congressmen what they need to know to make a good decision.  They vote on a lot of things they cannot be expected to truly understand so they usually get briefs from hopefully both sides of an issue to sort of catch them up.  They have been learning as they go on this financial crisis...mostly from the same people.  If they learned the same things, they should for the most part vote the same way.
3.Both party whips are pretty broken right now.  Being a "proud republican" is political suicide right now and the democratic party wanted Hillary, not Obama.  I don't believe either party knows for certain what they want to do.  The republican stance seems to be "let it all go to hell and we'll blame Obama" while they pretend to be opposed to everything he is doing.  The democrats I believe are unsure...as just about everybody is.  In both cases I don't think they are simply towing the party line.  There is no party line on this crisis because the consequences for being wrong are impossible to come back from.  Being the party blamed for another great depression means they will mostly be dead before their party is in power again.
4.Representatives are supposed to represent their districts...so I'll give that a true. :)  They may not know if this stimulus is right or wrong, but they DO know how to spend money to benefit their constituencies.

The explanation I've failed to sell...I'll give one more shot at and I'll try to keep it short. :)
The savings rate has skyrocketted and spending has of course fallen.  Savings are not being recirculated as they normally would because people are not borrowing.  The money normally spent was somebody else's income.  That income has now gone away.  If that income is gone (like your job), YOU cannot spend which destroys yet another person's income.  This becomes a downward spiral that is extremely difficult to stop.  The government spending replaces the missing income, allowing you to continue to spend (not borrow or go deeper into debt mind you, just pay your bills) which maintains yet another person's income.  It does NOT matter if the programs are stupid.  If we pay you to watch grass grow, we still replaces your income and all the people's incomes that depend on your spending to keep their own boat afloat.  It is relatively easy to see how much spending has declined by and that is how they determine the amount of stimulus needed to keep things going.  If the stimulus needed is 1 trillion and the government only has 500 billion of "good" projects, they still need to spend the entire trillion to stop the economy from falling into a deflationary spiral.  It is not a matter of choice.  Math demands that to get the desired result, you must spend the required amount of money somehow.

Why prop up the economy instead of letting it fall?  Because americans as a whole are in debt, and if they cannot pay that debt, more and more companies will go bankrupt, costing more and more jobs, causing more bankruptcies and more job losses.  The cycle of deleveraging is VICIOUS and the powers that be are looking for any viable solution to stop that cycle from occurring.  This is why we are seeing job losses accelerate.  Please tell me that explanation makes sense? :)  The way out is for that debt to be paid down to a reasonable level.  The government is taking on debt for the purpose of allowing individuals and companies to pay down debt.  They are literally buying time.  If we do as we should and reduce debt we will become sustainably viable as a nation.  Then we can start to make progress on paying down the government debt.  That is the path out of this mess.  It remains to be seen if we are willing to follow that path.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2009, 05:54:27 PM by Allerion »

Offline ColdHaven

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Re: Do they know what they are doing?
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2009, 05:38:26 PM »
I am not against a Stimulus package. How about spending money on the farming community? How about putting money into getting exports instead of importing everything? All I am saying is that there are better places to put their money in than Beekeeper insurance. :)

Allerion

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Re: Do they know what they are doing?
« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2009, 06:24:40 PM »
On what to spend on:
Ideally we want spending to disrupt the real economy as little a possible.  This means not using the money to help one industry and hurt another.  If say it was all spent on building town gardens or farms to provide free food for whoever needs it, this would compete with people who farm for a living and perhaps put many out of business.  These can spark of a whole chain of consequences nobody saw coming, so the goal is to interfere as little as possible while at the same time getting the money spent and circulating as soon as possible.

For example:  Beekeeper insurance might encourage many beekeepers to just give up and take the insurance money.  Other beekeepers might torch their hives to get insurance money.  Both outcomes make the bee colony extinction problem worse.  This would be an example of the government doing damage with their "help."  This is where the Austrians would jump up and down screaming "I told you so!" and is why many people recommend things like paying people to watch grass grow and digging holes and filling them back up as being preferable to doing something useful with stimulus. 

Similarly subsidizing exporters can spark off a trade war.  Europe and the US get pissy with each other over Boeing and Airbus special treatment.  Dumping a trillion into an export industry could spark off worldwide protectionist measures and again make everything worse.  Richard Koo recommended military spending as "extra" tanks and planes are basically useless and you cannot really disrupt a market that only has one customer.  Some of the best spending ever was the construction of the Hoover Dam which still provides power all the way down to Los Angeles 75 years after it was built.  Idealistic people hope we'll see a few more green energy projects of that scale.  It has been a LONG time since the United States built something truly grand we can be proud of.  I'm pretty sure the last obscenely huge construction project we took on was the embassy in Iraq...and yet we still have a hole where the twin towers used to be.  Seems like we could spend a buck or two to put something there.