Fed seeks $7M in privately minted 'Liberty Dollars'

[ag2]

This is probably old news to you guys, but this article is dated April 4th.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_liberty_dollars_raid

[Crash]

Yeah, I talked to people close to Bernard and it's a pretty foregone conclusion that the seizure will happen. They Feds have had the rounds and metals since the raid in 2007. The reason the Feds are going after Bernard and the LD 4 so viciously is directly because of the following:

About a dozen states have legislation that would allow them to produce their own currency backed by gold or silver in the event of hyperinflation striking the U.S. dollar. North and South Carolina are among those states.

If this case sets a precedent, they will come after ALL barter currency, including the TSP rounds sold here. Then there's Utah, NH, NC, SC, TX...I don't think they can touch the Lakota Nation on it but they'd hit AOCS and they are the ones who produce the Lakota Rounds.

Bottom line is, the Fed is trying to protect it's turf as the US fiat dollar falls. Me? I'm buying as much as I can afford right now. NORFEDs, AOCS, Coppercapowns...copper and silver.

[chrisdm8]

"Attempts to undermine the legitimate currency of this country are simply a unique form of domestic terrorism," U.S. Attorney Anne Tompkins said in a statement after von NotHaus was convicted.

A little scary to think a us attorney could make such a broad leap.

[surfivor]

Didn't I hear that the constitution specifically allows for states to mint currency or use silver/gold ?

 Jack said that the term "dollar" in "liberty dollar" was the sticking point, that was my first thought as well, but I am not sure. Alex Jones said the Wall Street journal and many main stream papers where surprised that the jury convicted NotHaus. He also made an allegation that the feds have a way of recirculating preferred jurors of theirs, is that true ?

 Is monopoly money counterfeit technically ? Gift cards ? It's pretty strange to think about ..

 NotHaus said on the Alex Jones show that he had experts and legal counsel who had told him that what he was doing was perfectly legal and he has been at it for 15 years ..

 There was this audio clip of a guy who tried to pay for a big mac at McDonald's with a gold coin that had a $50 face value and they wouldn't accept it. Technically it is legal tender was the point, but people who work there are a bit ignorant in more ways than one on that ..

Southern Poverty Law center quote from that article

"He's (NotHaus) playing on a core idea of the radical right, that evil bankers in the Federal Reserve are ripping you off by controlling the money supply," said Mark Potok, spokesman for the group. "He very much exists in the world of the anti-government patriot movement, whatever he may say. That's who his customers are."

 Right ! those bankers are your friends, they can't be evil ! How preposterous !
What the heck causes hyperinflation anyway ?? Duh !!

[OldManSchmidt]

I don't have any, but if I did, I'd melt them down before the feds would get them.

As an interesting aside, Confederate currency, as well as some alternative currencies minted and otherwise produced during the Revolutionary War are collectible.  What would this do to them?

[Pathfinder]

A little scary to think a us attorney could make such a broad leap.

Given the attorney's gender, is that a pun? ? ? ?  

Seriously, we are all terrorists now. It is .gov's preferred method of marginalizing everyone they prosecute to ensure a conviction. They are using the memory of 9/11 and throwing all of us under the bus to ensure their continued reign.

[hanzel]

A lot of the $7 million is the silver used to back these warehouse receipts. I do not see how the receipts  could every be confused with any US or FRN's that were ever produced.

[Morning Sunshine]

I also wondered if "dollar" was the sticking point....
but, the feds do not have a monopoly on that word:
Australian dollar
Canadian dollar
New Zealand dollar

[g8tors09]

This is the reason I would NEVER use credit card or check, see some people (rightfully so) say that conspiracy theaories are crap. Now when Unce Sam comes knocking at the door of the people who bought those coins, And yes they do have the records, what are they going to do. PEOPLE never EVER EVER EVER EVER leave a trail if at all possible. Everyone says thatwon't happen but what is the saying....


Here's your sign!

Jason

[joeinwv]

Gator - clearly the gold coins were in the trunk containing all my guns and ammo that fell overboard on that fishing trip that I took that one time.

Or I traded one to a guy at a gun show for a case of beef jerky - mmm, jerky. Then another time I gave a couple to a kid who mowed my grass a few times. I traded a few for a shotgun that I traded for a compound bow that I traded to another guy who put brakes on my car...

The inability to track liquid assets is specifically why they are looking.

Besides, it's not like I am going to have $7mil in gold laying around - at least not until my check clears on the 15th.

[Morning Sunshine]

Besides, it's not like I am going to have $7mil in gold laying around

neither do the feds
 think it's all a plot for the gov't to get a few PMs?  

[surfivor]

Gator - clearly the gold coins were in the trunk containing all my guns and ammo that fell overboard on that fishing trip that I took that one time.

Or I traded one to a guy at a gun show for a case of beef jerky - mmm, jerky. Then another time I gave a couple to a kid who mowed my grass a few times. I traded a few for a shotgun that I traded for a compound bow that I traded to another guy who put brakes on my car...

The inability to track liquid assets is specifically why they are looking.

Besides, it's not like I am going to have $7mil in gold laying around - at least not until my check clears on the 15th.

 So what is the scenario if the govt confiscates silver/gold, they say they know you bought some, but you used it to buy something, you lost it, gave it away, it was stolen, etc ? You then could be fined or something ?

 I sort of realize confiscation of silver is less likely ..

[OldManSchmidt]

More to the point, you trafficked in a currency not authorized by the federal government.  I expect that would be a felony charge.  If it isn't, then all they have to do is to charge you with domestic terrorism based on your clear attempt to undermine the US government by using a fraudulent currency.  Or they could just take the easy way and charge you with fraud, counterfeiting, pick a crime.
.

[Alpha Mike]

A lot of the $7 million is the silver used to back these warehouse receipts. I do not see how the receipts  could every be confused with any US or FRN's that were ever produced.

I will start by saying I am not intimately familiar with the Liberty Dollars.  But I do see the flaw with the Liberty dollar that has the government's panties in a wad.

Counterfeiting US currency -
The liberty "dollars" does not meet the criteria (color, sizing, text) as to look like FRN. But they do fail in one manor I will discuss after a bit of explanation.  Bear with me.

Status of currency -
Casino chips in Atlantic City and Nevada have the "status of currency".  This means if you make copies of these chips, you are counterfeiting and can be arrested/prosecuted for counterfeiting.  Yet, casino chips are not considered US currency.  Why? Casino chips - are for a "dollar amount of play".  Casino chips can not be used to purchase anything (it's illegal to do so.)  i.e. If you are in a restaurant in a casino, order a meal, you can't use casino chips to pay for the meal. You can tip some one with casino chips (or anything else for that matter) but you can not pay for the meal with chips (try it some time.)  Casino chips are not substitutable for FRN (yea, its a thin line, but they are on the correct/safe side of the line.)

The flaw, IMHO, with the Liberty dollar is (per the text on the Liberty Dollar) is this "receipt is for five US Dollars..."  By tying the Liberty Dollar to the US Dollars (5 liberty dollars = 5 US Dollars) you have effectively made a substitute for the FRN and hence are counterfeiting US currency.  The Liberty "Dollar" should have been tied ONLY to a volume of silver/gold.  i.e. a 1/10th of an ounce, 1/4th ounce, and so on. (note, I am not agreeing or disagreeing with what the government did, but am simply trying to explain their reasoning.)

[Interesting side note, if you believe in hyper inflation, fiat, and all other "bad" things about our US currency, soon to be worth less that a sheet of toilet paper, why would you tie the value of your alternative currency to the USD?  But I digress...]

TSP, AOCS, etc. coins are denominated in ounces of a metal (silver, gold, copper) and not in dollars.  The value in USD, or any other currency on the planet, varies with the value of the commodity.  All your silver, gold copper rounds, ingots, bullion are not going to be confiscated (at least not for the reasons stated in THIS news article.)  Your silver, gold and platinum Eagles will not be confiscated because they already are legal US currency.

The Federal, state, local governments don't care if you barter for good and services.  What they care about are taxes.  If you use barter to evade paying sales or income taxes, then the government gets a little pissy.  Simply put, barter is legal, tax fraud/evasion is not. 

Yawn 

[ag2]

This may sound like a stretch, but I suspect that bartering will some day be made illegal, or at least regulated with a limit.  (But not until the economy is further trashed.)  Too much bartering reduces your need for income, which reduces income taxes.

[surfivor]

The Federal, state, local governments don't care if you barter for good and services.  What they care about are taxes.  If you use barter to evade paying sales or income taxes, then the government gets a little pissy.  Simply put, barter is legal, tax fraud/evasion is not. 

 Wouldn't most barter transactions avoid paying taxes ?

 I wasn't aware that the liberty dollar was pegged to US currency, why would NotHaus do that ?

 Didn't he say that legal or other experts told him it was legal ? Does anyone know anything on that ?

Check this stuff out from wikipedia below:

the key paragraph is this, and note that it includes any coin of original design:

    "Whoever, except as authorized by law, makes or utters or passes, or attempts to utter or pass, any coins of gold or silver or other metal, or alloys of metals, intended for use as current money, whether in the resemblance of coins of the United States or of foreign countries, or of original design, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both."

 That would seem to imply all silver rounds would be illegal ? But the key phrase as "except as authorized by law" - so I am utterly confused ..

 Also note below a claim that Claudia Dickens, spokeswoman for the US Treasury is alleged to have said in the past that the liberty dollar was legal ..

Also note this paragraph:

""Liberty Dollars" are meant to compete with the circulating coinage (currency) of the United States and such competition consequently is a criminal act"

 Couldn't that easily be interpreted to mean, trade a silver quarter for it's melt value for a loaf of bread and you are competing with US currency ? Seems like maybe it could I guess.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Dollar#Federal_Government_response

Federal Government response

Numerous individuals within the U.S. Government have been interviewed regarding the Liberty Dollar. The Liberty Dollar organization asserts that one U.S. Secret Service agent has stated "It's not counterfeit money"[13] while remaining "skeptical" of NORFED. Another agent is reported to have warned that the Liberty Dollar "appears to be in violation of 18 U.S.C. § 514."[13] The minting of Liberty dollars also appears to be in violation of 18 U.S.C. § 486:

    Whoever, except as authorized by law, makes or utters or passes, or attempts to utter or pass, any coins of gold or silver or other metal, or alloys of metals, intended for use as current money, whether in the resemblance of coins of the United States or of foreign countries, or of original design, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

The promoter of the Liberty Dollar asserts that Claudia Dickens, spokeswoman for the U.S. Treasury Department's Bureau of Engraving and Printing, had previously said American Liberty Currency is legitimate. Dickens was quoted as having said "There's nothing illegal about this", after the Treasury Department's legal team reviewed the currency. "As long as it doesn't say 'legal tender' there's nothing wrong with it."[14]

In 2006 the U.S. Mint issued a press release stating that prosecutors at the Justice Department had determined that using Liberty Dollars as circulating money is a federal crime. The press release also stated that the "Liberty Dollars" are meant to compete with the circulating coinage (currency) of the United States and such competition consequently is a criminal act.[15] The Justice Department also stated that the Liberty Dollar was confusingly similar to actual U.S. currency, and the language used on NORFED's website was deceptive.[16]

-------------

 Would it be fair to say, technically it sounds like they may be saying you can collect coins as a collector, but you can't use them for any kind of trade ?

[Malamute]

This may sound like a stretch, but I suspect that bartering will some day be made illegal, or at least regulated with a limit.  (But not until the economy is further trashed.)  Too much bartering reduces your need for income, which reduces income taxes.

Good grief, thinking about what would be necessary to regulate bartering boggles the mind but I likewise expect Big Brother to attempt it nonetheless.  It'll take quite a bit more public school dumbing-down, media indoctrination, more dysgenics, more dodgey psymeds, and more surveillance of the serfs than currently exists...channelling a sick societal hybrid between the films Equilibrium, THX1138, and 1984.  

When I visited London a couple years ago I got an idea of what it'll be like all over the United States (or what's left of it) in 10-15 years...seeing a formerly great civilization laid low like that made me want to retch.  

[Crash]

TSP, AOCS, etc. coins are denominated in ounces of a metal (silver, gold, copper) and not in dollars.

Ahh, but they are denominated in dollars. The copper rounds are $2 and the silver 1 oz are $50. Look at the back of your TSP rounds. They all have TWO written on them. The only difference is that they don't put "US Dollars" on them. The only piece I know of that was released by AOCS without a denomination is the Free State Project round.

Now, on legality. There is a provision that as long as the rounds are sold as "collectors' Items" there's nothing the feds can really do. If you try to PASS one as currency, it's different. As far as if the feds will seize bullion? They can only seize what they can find. And we all know the FBI couldn't find a hooker in a whorehouse.

[ag2]

Good grief, thinking about what would be necessary to regulate bartering boggles the mind but I likewise expect Big Brother to attempt it nonetheless.  It'll take quite a bit more public school dumbing-down, media indoctrination, more dysgenics, more dodgey psymeds, and more surveillance of the serfs than currently exists...channelling a sick societal hybrid between the films Equilibrium, THX1138, and 1984.  

When I visited London a couple years ago I got an idea of what it'll be like all over the United States (or what's left of it) in 10-15 years...seeing a formerly great civilization laid low like that made me want to retch.  

Incentives.  Make it illegal to barter.  The IRS provide a cash reward for reporting someone who attempts to barter.  Someone who is reported to have attempted to barter then gets put on a watch list.  Multiple attempts to barter will result in a hefty fine.  Any wages you may earn are garnished to pay for the fine.  The ISR launches a scary multi-media campaign which delivers a message essentially making "it is unpatriotic not to pay your fair share, and bartering is not paying your fair share and essentially taking away from your neighbor"  It wouldn't be perfect, but a campaign like this would be enough to control the masses.

[g8tors09]

Gee, I thought everyone had that kind of cash(gold) laying around! What I was trying to get across is that whenever possible use deception! (great skill to teach the younguns!) No in all seriousness, let's say you were planning on buying 1,000 dollars worth of silver from a local coin dealer. Now if you pay cash all there is a register receipt. If you pay with a card, of any type, the receipt can be matched up to you. NOW THIS IS ALL WAY OUT THERE STUFF! But in a pinch there is NO trail to even worry about. Same thing goes for the local sporting goods store, buying some ammo for the gun that "you don't have anymore" . Really than what was this receipt for? The likelyhood of that being an issue is pretty slim, but hey the nuclear power plant in Japan is PERFECTLY SAFE.


Now I am talking about buying LEGAL stuff, I would never reccomend buying anything but US currency. I don't even care for bullion bars.