Author Topic: An IDEA for a second part of Episode 133  (Read 2913 times)

djturnz

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An IDEA for a second part of Episode 133
« on: February 02, 2009, 10:43:00 AM »
I havn't listened to the whole thing but in addition to choosing your HD weapon, how about various ways that people stash their weapon for quick retreival (assuming you don't wear it) yet keeping it out of sight.

A friend of mine was using a shotgun as his HD gun, but he wasn't sure about leaving it loaded since there was a small child in the house.

I wrote him an email with my thoughts on the matter.

Here it is:

Quote
The home defense shotgun should be kept in the following condition: (this is my opinion, and it is shared by many of the top self defense people in the industry)

Chamber a round and fully load the magazine. Then press the slide release and pull the pump back. Catch the shell as it ejects. Put the safety on. If you have a neoprene buttstock shell holder, slip the shell between the sock and the stock. If you don't have a neoprene buttstock (mine always stretch out and end up dropping shells under recoil) buy a bicycle inner-tube and cut a piece out of it to loop around your stock. It will hold that extra shell very well and be out of the way when you pull the shell out.
When you need to ruin a home invaders day, grab the shotty, throw the shell into the elevator through the ejection port, push the slide forward, disengage the safety.

A good way to hide the shotty from kids as well as any visitors is the following (it is better than under your bed):

Walk into your closet, turn around and look up. There should be 6 or more inches of "wall" between the top of the doorway and the ceiling. Whether you own your house or rent this will be totally reversible for when you move. Measure the width and get a 2x4 that's long enough to catch at least 2 studs, preferably 3. Screw the 2x4 into the studs, preferably with 2 screws per stud. Then get a pair of those rubber coated hooks they sell for hanging your bicycle up in the garage. The hook part is about 4 inches wide. Wal-mart, Lowes, or Home Depot sell these is not only round hooked but square hooked styles. Figure out the best places on the shotgun to position the hooks, probably between the trigger guard and stock for one and under the barrel, in front of the magazine, for the other. Then mark the distance and screw the hooks into the 2x4, so that the gun is horizontal, above the doorway, away from any prying eyes or curious kids. Even anybody looking in the closet for clothes probably wouldn't see it.

The 2x4s serve a couple different purposes:

1. To space the shotty out from the wall a bit to help your hand clear any molding
2. When you move, you are only left with 4 or 6 little holes in a place that no one will ever see.
3. it allows you to place the spacing of the hooks where you need them, instead of where the studs are.


You may find that you want to cut the ends of the hooks, or bend them out some so that you don't get hung up on them in the heat of the moment.

Be careful of your sling if you have one, make sure it is secure enough to not hang down and give away the guns position, and not get hung up on the hooks.


I don't know what shotty you have but I'm going to assume it's either a Mossberg 500/590 or a Rem 870.
Should have a short barrel 20" or less.
A receiver mounted side saddle is nice to hold an extra 6 rounds.
Loaded with either 00buck (preferred) or at the very least number 4 buckshot.
Maybe some slugs in the side saddle.
Wal-Mart sells a bandolier for about $6 that holds 30 shells or so. I keep mine loaded with various shells from 00buck, slugs, in pairs with a gap in between and distinguishable by hull color. I also keep 2 round of birdshot (has very little defensive value but might be useful) and 2 rounds of "Less than Lethal" rubber buck shot.
The bandolier can be grabbed quickly and thrown over the shoulder or strapped on like a belt, just to have more ammo handy.

John Q Public

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Re: An IDEA for a second part of Episode 133
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2009, 11:47:58 AM »
DJ,

I like the ingenuity of hiding the shotgun in this manner but a couple of things jump out at me.

1) As you mentioned, the end of the hooks could present problems with a sling, or God forbid catch inside the trigger guard, thus hanging up the gun for an extended period of time. So, you would need to be careful when retrieving or putting the firearm away. I am not concerned about accidentally discharging a round, as there would not be one in the chamber and the safety should be on. I am concerned that when you go for the shotgun, you will more than likely be tired (if the event happens in the middle of the night), or have tons of adrenaline pumping through your body. This just presents one more possible thing to go wrong. So make certain that you remove the hook ends.

2) 00 Buck, IMHO, should NOT be your first choice for home defense. It destroys anything behind the target - including people in rooms, apartments or other homes next door. 4 is a MUCH better choice even though it will still penetrate walls. The American Gunsmithing Institute (AGI) did an excellent video on building a Fighting 870. In the end, they showed what the various cartridges would do against a typically constructed home wall.  All of them were ugly results. However, 4 was the best choice in preventing/limiting over penetration.

Offline BigDanInTX

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Re: An IDEA for a second part of Episode 133
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2009, 11:54:01 AM »
Great idea...simply a home gun storage/deployment show.

I like the idea for the shotgun over the inside closet door.  I'm definitely going to be doing that this weekend!!

I have a GunVault I keep by my night stand, camouflaged behind a trash can, but after listening to the last show, I definitely feel I need to bolt it down to something so they don't just take the safe.  I'm still thinking of how to bolt it down at this point, though.

In my personal opinion, the number one best way to deal with guns in the home and children...  Make sure they understand the rules about guns. My boys are 6 and 3 and they get it.

Also, there are no toy guns in my house.  They are not allowed to own them or any toys that do have them.  If they're laser blaster toys, that's one thing, but if they shoot a projectile, it's not allowed (this lets me play Star Wars with them  ;)).  I do not EVER want there to be a discrepancy between what is a real gun and what is a toy.  My nephew has toy guns and happens to have an airsoft pistol that looks JUST LIKE a Glock.  It doesn't even have the orange tip.  When I first saw it, my blood went cold.  My boys aren't allowed to play guns when they visit my sister-in-law, which she respects.  The guns are put away when they visit (which annoys my nephew, but oh well...lol).

2) 00 Buck, IMHO, should NOT be your first choice for home defense. It destroys anything behind the target - including people in rooms, apartments or other homes next door. 4 is a MUCH better choice even though it will still penetrate walls. The American Gunsmithing Institute (AGI) did an excellent video on building a Fighting 870. In the end, they showed what the various cartridges would do against a typically constructed home wall.  All of them were ugly results. However, 4 was the best choice in preventing/limiting over penetration.
I wish I had paid more attention at the time, but I saw a shotgun load that had one big pellet and 6 peripheral, smaller pellets.  I'm curious how that load would do.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2009, 11:56:00 AM by BigDanInTX »

Offline archer

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Re: An IDEA for a second part of Episode 133
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2009, 02:56:01 PM »
Quote
Walk into your closet, turn around and look up. There should be 6 or more inches of "wall" between the top of the doorway and the ceiling. Whether you own your house or rent this will be totally reversible for when you move. Measure the width and get a 2x4 that's long enough to catch at least 2 studs, preferably 3. Screw the 2x4 into the studs, preferably with 2 screws per stud. Then get a pair of those rubber coated hooks they sell for hanging your bicycle up in the garage. The hook part is about 4 inches wide. Wal-mart, Lowes, or Home Depot sell these is not only round hooked but square hooked styles. Figure out the best places on the shotgun to position the hooks, probably between the trigger guard and stock for one and under the barrel, in front of the magazine, for the other. Then mark the distance and screw the hooks into the 2x4, so that the gun is horizontal, above the doorway, away from any prying eyes or curious kids. Even anybody looking in the closet for clothes probably wouldn't see it.

This is how I've been storing my bow/swords/big knives for the last 10 years. Keep them out of sight and out of reach for any 'vertically challenge' people...

djturnz

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Re: An IDEA for a second part of Episode 133
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2009, 10:04:30 AM »
I never actually did this yet.  Some time ago, I switched my HD gun to by XD45 with light.  I have three small kids and will need my other hand.

I know there is always a debate on 00buck vs #4 buck, and there always will be.

I'd like more info on that video though.

Offline BigDanInTX

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Re: An IDEA for a second part of Episode 133
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2009, 10:49:07 AM »
This is the style of 12ga ammo I was talking about.  The one I saw had a slighty smaller big pellet and slightly bigger small pellets, but the concept is the same...


http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/product_info.php/pName/250rds-12-gauge-centurion-le-2-34-multidefense-buck/cName/12-gauge-all-12-gauge

Offline ModernSurvival

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Re: An IDEA for a second part of Episode 133
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2009, 10:56:34 AM »
I would like to see the video too!

I have patterned these http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/AMM814-5.html  #4 Buck from S&B and really liked the results. 

I know that lots of tests have been done saying that #2 or #4 shot does not penetrate sufficiently but I have also patterned them as home shooting ranges and my God but I would not want to be on the receiving end of it!  It does penetrate a LOT LESS then buck but that keeps them out of adjoining rooms better.  Take some #2s and put them into a pumpkin at 15 feet!

One thing I would love to see is a heavy magnum of BB lead shot in 2 3/4 inch in 12 gauge.  I think this would be an exceptional home defense load and a good bridge between bird shot and buck.  No one makes it at least that I can find.  You can load your own but then you are all back to that over zealous DA, "this man hand crafted MAN KILLING AMMUNITION just hoping one day to have a chance to shoot someone" or some other BS.

John Q Public

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Re: An IDEA for a second part of Episode 133
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2009, 06:07:51 PM »
The video is called "Building the Fighting 870." By the American Gunsmithing Institute (AGI). It is the last part of the video.

Not that I agree with using a torrent site, but when you search for it in google it pops up here:

http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4215215/AGI_-_Building_The_Fighting_870

52Degrees

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Re: An IDEA for a second part of Episode 133
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2009, 06:31:35 PM »
Quote
Also, there are no toy guns in my house.  They are not allowed to own them or any toys that do have them.  If they're laser blaster toys, that's one thing, but if they shoot a projectile, it's not allowed (this lets me play Star Wars with them  ).  I do not EVER want there to be a discrepancy between what is a real gun and what is a toy.  My nephew has toy guns and happens to have an airsoft pistol that looks JUST LIKE a Glock.  It doesn't even have the orange tip.  When I first saw it, my blood went cold.  My boys aren't allowed to play guns when they visit my sister-in-law, which she respects.  The guns are put away when they visit (which annoys my nephew, but oh well...lol).

My boys have toy nerf guns (they shoot these little foam tubes with a suction cup on the end) and 2 of them have airsoft pistols I bought for them, but they only get to use them with direct adult supervision.  I also bought each of my kids Red Ryder bb guns for christmas.  They get to shoot them regularly and safety is paramount when they shoot.

I believe (and my personal experience with my kids has verified this for me) that kids are much more safe around firearms when the mystery is removed.  They know the difference between a real gun and a toy gun, and they don't touch the real ones, even when they are given the chance to do it without getting caught.

Not everybody agrees with me, and not all kids are wired the same.  But, I have 3 boys and they all love to do very "boy" things.  Boys love guns and will do whatever they have to do to learn all about them.  If you don't get to teach them yourself, they end up like me, with interesting scars to show their kids about the time they learned a very important lesson about guns.  My parents tried to "protect" me from learning about things.  In the end, I became very proficient on my own. But not without making some dangerous mistakes along the way that could have been avoided had I been allowed to learn with supervision.

On the other hand, we homeschool our kids.  This means we get to choose their friends.  They don't hang around people whose kids we believe chronically misbehave, and we know the parents of all their friends well.  If your kids are getting a public school education, this may not be true.  I can see why you might feel the need to shelter your kids from real guns if you can't control what they might find at someone else's house.

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Re: An IDEA for a second part of Episode 133
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2009, 04:44:15 AM »
52Degrees...  The first time I wrote that paragraph, I evidently included more than I ended up submitting.  I rewrote it and I guess I forgot the tidbit about me letting my 6yo handle my unloaded pistol.  I made sure he understood the 4 rules of safety.  When I got to the one regarding checking to make sure it is unloaded before handling, he looked at me.  I told him that he can ask me to pull the slide back for him, which he did.  He did the proper check and then I let the slide return.

For children, there is a certain mystery around guns for sure.  However, once you are holding an unloaded pistol, since it doesn't do anything, it gets a little boring before long.

I agree with you that if you don't let them quench their thirst for knowledge, they'll find a way on their own.  So, the rule is they can see it or in the case of the 6yo, touch it, but they have to ask me to get it out.  I knew that sheltering them from guns would be the wrong way to go for us.  When they get older, I think I'd be okay with letting them have access to an airsoft, etc, but for right now the time isn't right.  =-]