Author Topic: Bitcoin currency (merged topics)  (Read 116971 times)

Offline David in MN

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Re: Bitcoin currency (merged topics)
« Reply #420 on: November 14, 2017, 02:58:06 PM »
SO just to be clear, Bitcoin and Bitcoin Cash run the same fundamental software, mine the same, and operate almost identically except that Bitcoin takes hours to resolve and costs upward of $40 while Bitcoin Cash costs nothing and resolves immediately? I'm no genius but I think I know who wins this currency war. Bitcoin shot itself in the foot not doing its last fork.

For what good my handicapping is since I don't do crypto right now, Bitcoin looks like its going the way of the dodo, Etherium scares me, and I have a hard time deciding who looks better between Dash and Bitcoin Cash. But if Bitcoin craters as I expect it has the possibility to poison the entire well.

Last, I'll just reiterate that those "investing" in coins should be very careful. These have the potential to be up 70% in a day or two and fall just as fast. And with no underlying value (even a badly run company has capital and book value) the possibility of vanishing overnight is massive. You're holding a penny stock, not a blue chip.
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Offline FreeLancer

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Re: Bitcoin currency (merged topics)
« Reply #421 on: November 14, 2017, 07:32:27 PM »
SO just to be clear, Bitcoin and Bitcoin Cash run the same fundamental software, mine the same, and operate almost identically except that Bitcoin takes hours to resolve and costs upward of $40 while Bitcoin Cash costs nothing and resolves immediately? I'm no genius but I think I know who wins this currency war. Bitcoin shot itself in the foot not doing its last fork.

This last weekend's Bitcoin Cash craziness, coming on the heels of the SegWit2x cancellation, marks the beginning of a civil war.  Powerful actors with serious money to throw around, like Roger Ver and the industry NYA signatories, have launched a concerted attack against Bitcoin.  It's a battle between those who want to force changes that favor transaction volume (the buy your cup of coffee side) on the blockchain and those who want to preserve decentralization and censorship resistance (the be your own bank side) of the original concept. 

I'm coming down on the store of value, digital gold, be your own bank side, and as such $40 dollar transaction fees (although I've never paid anywhere near that much) and one hour times to reach 6 confirmations doesn't seem unreasonable to me.  The fact that transferring $10,000, $100,000, or $100 million costs the same $5-10 fee makes me think that Bitcoin will ultimately be used to store and transfer large amounts of purchasing power anywhere on the planet, regardless of borders, banking laws, or which blockchain Bitcoin Jesus throws his reputation behind. 

Since building new blockchains over the last couple years (Ethereum, Dash, etc.) has so far failed to gain sufficient dominance over BTC, the new strategy appears to be hard forking (Bitcoin Cash, Bitcoin Gold, maybe SegWit2x eventually) the original blockchain.  Who knows how it will work out, but 2018 will be the year of the hard forks.  There's already a web page for a Bitcoin Cash+.


But if Bitcoin craters as I expect it has the possibility to poison the entire well.

True.


Last, I'll just reiterate that those "investing" in coins should be very careful. These have the potential to be up 70% in a day or two and fall just as fast. And with no underlying value (even a badly run company has capital and book value) the possibility of vanishing overnight is massive. You're holding a penny stock, not a blue chip.

Also true.


You're holding a penny stock, not a blue chip.

Maybe.  Civilization hasn't been down this particular road before, so it's difficult to distinguish whether it's a bubble or a technological adoption curve at this point.
23:57:30

Offline David in MN

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Re: Bitcoin currency (merged topics)
« Reply #422 on: November 14, 2017, 08:01:38 PM »
You have the choice of a checking account that charges $10 per check and one that charges $0.001. It's not even really a choice.

I'm so confused over this "store of wealth" claim. Historically stores of wealth are precious metals, bonds, and CDs precisely because they don't change in value that much. Pre-Fed the Us dollar was a store of wealth. That's one of the purposes of a currency to begin with. It's why we need crypto. Modern currencies aren't stores of wealth.

Even if I accepted the notion that Bitcoin BTC is the new gold, it's still a fool's errand. Guys like me will trade 6 figures for $5 to the miners but the miners of BCH are getting a quarter penny off a candybar sold in India. If crypto actually takes off, who has better positioned themselves?

Bitcoin originally positioned itself as the ultimate frictionless currency. Crosses borders, low transaction cost, decentralized. Doesn't feel that way anymore. Seems like it has abandoned its core values.
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Offline FreeLancer

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Re: Bitcoin currency (merged topics)
« Reply #423 on: November 14, 2017, 09:12:08 PM »
You have the choice of a checking account that charges $10 per check and one that charges $0.001. It's not even really a choice.

Depends on how much value is placed on transaction immutability, resistance to censorship, and degree of decentralization, qualities that don't come free.  And how much would a checking account actually cost if it wasn't run on the back of a fractional reserve banking system?


I'm so confused over this "store of wealth" claim. Historically stores of wealth are precious metals, bonds, and CDs precisely because they don't change in value that much.

When was the last time a de novo currency/asset/store of wealth (and designed to ultimately be deflationary, no less) arrived on the scene?


Bitcoin originally positioned itself as the ultimate frictionless currency. Crosses borders, low transaction cost, decentralized. Doesn't feel that way anymore. Seems like it has abandoned its core values.

Like I said, it looks like we're entering into a cryptocurrency civil war over these very questions.
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Offline David in MN

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Re: Bitcoin currency (merged topics)
« Reply #424 on: November 15, 2017, 06:00:02 AM »
Let me put it another way... For you BTC holders, would you have bought in when you did if transaction costs were as high as they are now and took as long to resolve? In 2011/2012 when I got in I would never have accepted these costs. They'd completely violate the claim of currency. No way I'd have accepted a "currency" that can't buy a candy bar.

I have fully come to understand that BTC is a store of wealth strictly because it is worth money and hard to trade but no other store of wealth has ever acted that way. Well, maybe tulips. I just don't understand why being non-usable is an asset. I'll admit I have an Austrian bias (like Mises) but even if I grant that the Blockchain is the biggest invention of the past decade why would you use it to power a currency with a goal of no turnover? We got decentralized accounting and then limited it? That was the whole point, wasn't it?

BTC can't live up to its own white paper.
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Offline FreeLancer

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Re: Bitcoin currency (merged topics)
« Reply #425 on: November 15, 2017, 08:17:58 AM »
BTC was far from frictionless when I was acquiring my current holdings through Gox and then transferring it to a Bitcoin-QT wallet. That was all a pain in the ass. Coinbase is easy.
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