Author Topic: Doomsday Preppers on NatGeo TV [merged topics]  (Read 267288 times)

Offline Dennis McClung

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Re: Doomsday Prepper TV show (merged topics)
« Reply #60 on: August 09, 2011, 03:44:33 PM »
Hi Dennis, I'm glad that you hopped on the TSP forum. First let me say that I love your Greenhouse/Aquaponics/Chicken Coop setup. It's a great bit of engineering(?) and quite the inspiration.
Thanks!

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A lot of us watched the show and have talked about it a few times here, as you can see, and in the TSP Forum Chat.
We were talking about your focus on a CME and grid down scenario as a focus for your reasoning behind preparing and how there seemed to be a timeline attached to the possibility. We also noted that there was no real explanation for the timeline.
Is there a reason that you feel a CME that takes down the grid is almost assured or is it just one of the possibilities that you're preparing for?
My wife and I decided in 2007 to live as prepared and self-sufficient as we could in five years. We came across the CME scenario and decided to focus our worst case scenario on that. We do not believe it is deffinately going to happen in any way shape or form. We do believe that something like the Carrington Event could happen again, one day, and it would be horrible for the unprepared. We also believe in normal disaster scenarios too. The producers did not want to hear this. We made a five year plan to be debt free, buy a home, produce our food, harvest and store water, etc.

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Do you feel you were a little misrepresented by the editor's and director's choice in how it played?
Yes.

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How are your electronics for the aquaponics protected for a CME event?
It is off-grid. We also have backups of everything. Worse case scenario is we can use a screw pump.

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How are you getting the neighbors on board?
Well, we give tours regularly and are featured in the local media. I run two local meetup groups with around 200 members total. We know most of our neighbors and we live in a huge LDS neighborhood. The producers said that they needed something on every participant to complain about from their expert, who ever that is. I doubt they really had an expert of any kind, really. I did not believe in their assessment because it was made up.

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Are you thinking about something more than a knife for defense?
Lets put it this way, I live in Arizona.  ;)

Offline Dennis McClung

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Re: Doomsday Prepper TV show (merged topics)
« Reply #61 on: August 09, 2011, 03:53:44 PM »
Dennis, here is Jacks' guest form if you would like to be interviewed by him (if you have not filled it out already).
http://www.thesurvivalpodcast.com/guest-submission
Thanks, Archer. I just filled it out. If Jack wants to do it, I would be more than happy to talk.

And Cedar, that chicken part was actually filmed in a warm day on spring. And they insisted that my son wear the sweatshirt for continuity from earlier filming during winter. I've worked with better crews.

Offline Nicodemus

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Re: Doomsday Prepper TV show (merged topics)
« Reply #62 on: August 09, 2011, 03:54:41 PM »
There's no need to go through my post. I think you answered all of my questions in your response to Cedar's queries.

But since you answered them anyway before I posted... Thanks!  ;D

Thanks for the clarification and welcome aboard. I hope you stick around!

Offline Cedar

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Re: Doomsday Prepper TV show (merged topics)
« Reply #63 on: August 09, 2011, 03:56:20 PM »
The producers said that they needed something on every participant to complain about from their expert, who ever that is. I doubt they really had an expert of any kind, really. I did not believe in their assessment because it was made up.

We were all wondering who the 'expert/s' were and wondered why they were being so secretive about it.

How is your recirculating pump hooked up to your solar and what size panel are you using? They did not show much of that. I plan on raising fish (Blackwater trout) at some point. I was in Canada on my 1 acre pond, but it didn't happen before I moved back to the States. Looking for other options besides catfish and trout (which I need to have more ppm of O2 for). Your Tilapia look like a great choice.

Cedar - who is helping you get 10 posts so you can come into the chatroom if you like

Offline Dennis McClung

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Re: Doomsday Prepper TV show (merged topics)
« Reply #64 on: August 09, 2011, 04:13:07 PM »
Cedar - My solar setup is nine 15 watt panels and two 125 Watt amp hour marine batteries. I have a controller, etc, but all that my pump requires is 35 watts. We could go a few days without sun, no problem. We could stretch it farther with timers if we wanted to as well. Gravity also saves us a ton of energy. We do use some LED lighting as well in the seed propagation room (also not shown on the show for continuity). If we lived in colder climate we would raise yellow perch.

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Re: Doomsday Prepper TV show (merged topics)
« Reply #65 on: August 09, 2011, 04:37:53 PM »
Dennis, thanks so much for answering our questions and honestly, thanks for doing the show, too.  If it weren't for folks like you willing to give up a little opsec in exchange for an education and point of discussion there'd be even more unprepared grasshoppers out there.  One of my best prepping friends came out of a discussion of The Colony, so real good can come out of putting yourself out there.

Your food production system is simply incredible.  I'm just totally impressed. 

Since you have done some CME research (which is infinitely more than me), do you know what impact a CME would have on a solar array?  What about inverters and charge controllers in an off-grid system?  I'm just curious what your research has revealed.  It's always been a concern of mine that a solar array would be just as fried as the grid in an EMP or CME.

Offline Cedar

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Re: Doomsday Prepper TV show (merged topics)
« Reply #66 on: August 09, 2011, 06:06:18 PM »
For those questioning. The old videos which were posted are said to be down and here is one full length. Dennis is the first family.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaxjfQheNes

Cedar

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Re: Doomsday Prepper TV show (merged topics)
« Reply #67 on: August 09, 2011, 06:38:11 PM »
Thanks Cedar!

Offline Bennington1776

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Re: Doomsday Prepper TV show (merged topics)
« Reply #68 on: August 10, 2011, 11:32:13 PM »
Dennis, thank you for providing your prospective on your part of the show and some of the background.  There are always two sides to every story.  You have a lot of knowledge that you can contribute to this forum.

Offline Dennis McClung

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Re: Doomsday Prepper TV show (merged topics)
« Reply #69 on: August 11, 2011, 10:00:00 AM »
Since you have done some CME research (which is infinitely more than me), do you know what impact a CME would have on a solar array?  What about inverters and charge controllers in an off-grid system?  I'm just curious what your research has revealed.  It's always been a concern of mine that a solar array would be just as fried as the grid in an EMP or CME.
Thanks for the kind words. I also enjoyed The Colony. The producers called me for casting of season two, but I was filming for another documentary at the time and, unfortunately, could not pursue it. I wish they were going back for season three!


The effects of a CME would primarily effect the electrical grid, radio, and satellites. In the last big storm, in 1859, the only grid we had fried, the telegraph lines. The power lines we use today are larger and more widespread. They act as an antenna to pick up the charged particles from space. A small off-grid solar setup should not be damaged in such an event.
An EMP could do some serious damage to the controllers and inverters if it was close enough. The most likely EMP attack would involve a nuclear explosion in the atmosphere, or even space. If this was the case, it's effects would be more like that of a CME. The widespread reach would be unfathomable, but small off-grid setups should be functional.
In the worst case scenario, it is possible to use a manual screw pump to keep the system going. It would function as an ebb & flow system rather than the current NFT approach I am using in aquaponic food production.

Dennis, thank you for providing your prospective on your part of the show and some of the background.  There are always two sides to every story.  You have a lot of knowledge that you can contribute to this forum.
I appreciate the welcome. It is always great to be with like-minded folks.

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Re: Doomsday Prepper TV show (merged topics)
« Reply #70 on: August 11, 2011, 01:47:44 PM »
Thanks for the feedback.  I'm trying to create redundency in my heating system, which is a natural gas boiler, but uses about 3amps to operate, plus a 1.5 amp circulator pump and a couple of .5 amp kick fans.  At under a 1000 watts of intermitent and seasonal demand it would be easy enough to have a relatively small (400-500 ah @ 12vdc) battery bank, 2-3 200w panels and a small generator to back it up and top off the batteries as needed.  However, I've always had a concern that something like EMP or CME could wipe out my own capacity, too.  Obviously there's the risk that compressor stations will go down, too, and I'm working on wood heat, too. 

In any case, I appreciate your feedback.  I think the most likely scenarios are storms of the non-solar kind (i.e. big snow storms), for which the resiliency I'm creating should be adequate (especially since I already have enough fuel stored for the genny for a week or two worth of battery charging, even without the solar panels).

Offline Call

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Re: Doomsday Prepper TV show (merged topics)
« Reply #71 on: August 18, 2011, 08:18:13 PM »
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but I saw a Canadian documentary on 2012 earlier this year: the Arizona/pool/tilapia guy makes a living selling 2012 products to people. So it's also a business for him. This show didn't mention that IIRC.

Offline USMCAllen

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Re: Doomsday Prepper TV show (merged topics)
« Reply #72 on: August 19, 2011, 01:18:58 AM »
im just cracking up at how dennis has "fledgling prepper" as his title.

but seriously, do you really eat talapia for every meal as the show portrayed? im not a fish guy... bleh

Offline Oil Lady

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Re: Doomsday Prepper TV show (merged topics)
« Reply #73 on: August 19, 2011, 05:35:26 AM »
I haven't seen the show, but it's awesome that shows of some kind are at least being made.


Offline Dennis McClung

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Re: Doomsday Prepper TV show (merged topics)
« Reply #74 on: August 22, 2011, 01:42:56 PM »
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but I saw a Canadian documentary on 2012 earlier this year: the Arizona/pool/tilapia guy makes a living selling 2012 products to people. So it's also a business for him. This show didn't mention that IIRC.
Yes, I was in that CBC doc which later aired in the states on MSNBC. I do have a business that caters to the 2012 people, I sell survival supplies. The countdown during my interviews on Nat Geo was from my survival supply business, but the producer took it upon his self to block it out. They refer to me as a web developer, which is partially true, but misleading nonetheless. They wanted to make me seem as average as possible.

im just cracking up at how dennis has "fledgling prepper" as his title.

but seriously, do you really eat talapia for every meal as the show portrayed? im not a fish guy... bleh
I find the title funny too.  We do eat a good deal of tilapia, however we do use biological population control so we don't have to eat it "every single day" as the producers took it upon themselves to proclaim. I am not a fish guy myself, believe it or not. Tilapia is pretty mild tasting so it is as good as your cooking is. Try it.

I haven't seen the show, but it's awesome that shows of some kind are at least being made.
I agree 100%. It is sad that I have to be taken out of context to make it what the producers want to portray, but at least the shows are being made. It is up to the viewer to watch for both entertainment value and shreds of reality. I remember talking to Cody Lundin about the media and yellow journalism. He said he got sick of the countless requests for him to eat rodents for sensationalism. He did his thing and muddled through the media until he finally got lucky and made a great show that many now enjoy. Hopefully, one of these shows will take off past backdoor pilot and make a good series.

Offline USMCAllen

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Re: Doomsday Prepper TV show (merged topics)
« Reply #75 on: August 23, 2011, 01:36:26 AM »
man i grew up where "cooking" meant heating something up after reading how long and what temp on the box.

how do you make it taste good? vary up the flavoring?

Offline Dan

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Re: Doomsday Prepper TV show (merged topics)
« Reply #76 on: August 26, 2011, 02:34:49 PM »
Look for a better show coming August 28th from TLC called Livin' for the Apocalypse. The show will also feature Peggy Layton!

Here is a link to the dates and and times for this show. Livin' for the Apocalypse

Offline The Professor

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Re: Doomsday Prepper TV show (merged topics)
« Reply #77 on: August 28, 2011, 07:50:33 PM »
It's back on tonight, in about 15 mins from when this is posted.

The Professor

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Re: Doomsday Prepper TV show (merged topics)
« Reply #78 on: August 28, 2011, 10:02:45 PM »
Thanks guys.  I would have missed this one.  The DVR is getting workout tonight.  In addition to my usual Sunday night shows, there's been some interesting terrorism, 9/11, and other shows worth recording.

Offline Cedar

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Re: Doomsday Prepper TV show (merged topics)
« Reply #79 on: August 28, 2011, 11:00:20 PM »
Ok, this one made 'preppers' even seem more.. ummmm.. shall we say COLORFUL (?), but I think they did better justice to Dennis and his family this time.

Cedar

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Re: Doomsday Prepper TV show (merged topics)
« Reply #80 on: August 28, 2011, 11:05:24 PM »
In addition to my usual Sunday night shows, there's been some interesting terrorism, 9/11, and other shows worth recording.


... And they were??

Cedar

Offline marauder

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Re: Doomsday Prepper TV show (merged topics)
« Reply #81 on: August 29, 2011, 05:21:53 AM »
Ok, this one made 'preppers' even seem more.. ummmm.. shall we say COLORFUL (?), but I think they did better justice to Dennis and his family this time.

Cedar

My wife made it through the first family from Utah. However, once the second family came on--with the 6'4" crossdresser--she immediately snatched the remote and changed the channel. I need to set the DVR to catch the last 45 minutes. lol.

The first family was a little off the wall, but I certainly admire their redundancies. BOL in the mountains, underground bunker under work location, etc. Pretty interesting and unique set-ups.

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Re: Doomsday Prepper TV show (merged topics)
« Reply #82 on: August 29, 2011, 06:35:56 AM »

... And they were??

Cedar
Megaquake: Hour that shook Japan
Pro Cycling Special
Livin' for the Apocolypse
george w bush: the 9/11 interview
curiosity
The Wild Within: off the grid Alaska

Offline Combat Doc

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Re: Doomsday Prepper TV show (merged topics)
« Reply #83 on: August 29, 2011, 06:52:32 AM »
I see that Cedar asked if it was known who the experts were. Was the question answered in this or another thread?
Doc

Offline BadgerAngel

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Re: Doomsday Prepper TV show (merged topics)
« Reply #84 on: August 29, 2011, 07:34:25 AM »
Hey, Endurance, that off the grid Alaska sounds interesting.  What network was it on? 

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Re: Doomsday Prepper TV show (merged topics)
« Reply #85 on: August 29, 2011, 09:05:19 AM »
Hey, Endurance, that off the grid Alaska sounds interesting.  What network was it on?
It's part of a series called The Wild Within on the Travel Channel.  Honestly, I think it's one of the cooler shows on right now.  The guy goes around the world hunting and fishing with local natives, from Moose hunting in the Yukon to wild pig hunting with a knife in Hawaii to bow fishing in the Amazon basin.

I think he's the best ambassador for hunting I've ever seen.  Very ethical guy.

Offline BadgerAngel

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Re: Doomsday Prepper TV show (merged topics)
« Reply #86 on: August 29, 2011, 09:11:47 AM »
Thanks, Endurance, I appreciate it.  I'll have to see if I can find it on Netflix or Hulu or something. 

Offline The Professor

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Re: Doomsday Prepper TV show (merged topics)
« Reply #87 on: August 29, 2011, 10:08:22 AM »
My wife made it through the first family from Utah. However, once the second family came on--with the 6'4" crossdresser--she immediately snatched the remote and changed the channel. I need to set the DVR to catch the last 45 minutes. lol.

The first family was a little off the wall, but I certainly admire their redundancies. BOL in the mountains, underground bunker under work location, etc. Pretty interesting and unique set-ups.

Yeah. . .

We ended up watching the whole episode.  My wife and I got the same feeling that either the producer just wanted to show some real whack-jobs (no pun intended), or was trying to show the true diversity of the prepping culture.

Sadly, the majority of the show centered around the least-prepared, most "sensational" preppers.  Rather than go into  many of the other aspects of a prepping lifestyle, they chose to concentrate on a low-income, 6'4", mentally-challenged individual and his partner who are more worried about getting his/her medications after the Apocalypse, lest he/she goes "crazy."  Oh, and yeah, they had to go with the "C-word."  Regardless of whether it was serious or not, they had to say it.

I was meaning "cannibalism," (what were you thinking?).  In her own words ". . .why waste meat?"

I realize that I shouldn't expect anyone to put survivalists in a good light.  I keep hoping, however, that at least they'll do it from a neutral perspective. With preparedness becoming more and more mainstream, I wish someone would avoid the fringe of the groups and stop spotlighting the sloping-foreheaded, inbred country rednecks who introduce their entourage as ". . . this is my wife and my sister. . ." with only one woman standing next to them and describe their plans as ". . .we're gonna protect this here trailer."

Or, in this case, an imbalanced, low-income transsexual with cannibalistic fantasies who might just go off the deep end because the government-funded gender-modifying drugs may stop coming when the zombies take over (yes, they are worried about zombies).

The wife and I both got ticked off about how it was presented, not that they were prepping.  Honestly, everyone has problems we must all overcome.  These two "room-mates" (who allegedly met while they were both dating the same guy) still had the entire victim mentality.  "I can't do this because I don't make no money."  or "It's hard because my guinea-pig and costume-making business don't supplement my SSI enough to prep."

Rather than show all the trannie, white-trash bullsh**, I wish they'd have shown the _real_ struggles of a couple of preppers who actually have overcome some adversity.  No, their preps weren't perfect, but dammit. . .they were trying (not hard enough, IMHO, but trying, nonetheless). 

I know, I know. . .they won't get any viewers that way and, hence, won't sell any advertising.  Yes, I understand that sensationalism sells.  But, can't someone do a decent investigative documentary on prepping?

<sigh> I gotta get to class.

The Professor

* For the record, I'm not bashing on any group in particular. . .I'm bashing on the guy in the show, specifically.  I don't care who does what to  whom, how often or with what equipment as long as both are consenting adults and they don't violate anyone's personal rights.


Offline Doug

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Re: Doomsday Prepper TV show (merged topics)
« Reply #88 on: August 29, 2011, 10:56:57 AM »
I'm with you Prof.

Dennis, I glad they presented you in a much better light this time around....sustainable living. You are doing a damn good job of it. But in all seriousness I wish you weren't into the Mayan 2012 stuff. I'm a prepper and I don't believe in that stuff. Most people don't. These shows are being selective in their programing and editing to trying to make preppers look like fringe oddballs. You saw that editing in the first show you did.

If they were to put me on one of these shows I'd talk about only one thing with regards to a need for prepping... Peak Oil. Why PO? Because it is backed by facts, data, and expert opinions. Peak Oil is here and it will affect every single person. Here's what I mean and here's you some research. All these links are credible and/or reputable. For example, I quote the US Pentagon's JOE Report 2010.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAdnuGUYXp8&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPKLKWIh3gA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKkISqOCnVA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/user/OilEducationTV#p/u/2/oZp-OxZuflE

http://www.youtube.com/user/OilEducationTV#p/u/3/4d3kK4kgz5g

Oil & Gas Journal; Hess Chief: Action needed to avoid oil crisis
"Given the long lead times of at least 5-10 years from discovery to production, an oil crisis is coming and sooner than most people think. Unfortunately, we are behaving in ways that suggest we do not know there is a serious problem," Hess said...With OPEC now down to 2.5 million b/d of spare capacity, Hess said, "We no longer have the safety margin for supply interruptions and demand spikes to ensure price stability. OPEC, with approximately two thirds of the world's proven conventional crude reserves and one third of its production capacity, certainly has the resource base to relieve the pressure." However, he said, "All oil producers—OPEC and non-OPEC alike—simply are not investing enough today to ensure sufficient capacity to meet oil needs in the next 10 years."

Pentagon
United States Joint Forces Command:
U.S. JOINT OPERATING ENVIRONMENT REPORT 2010
http://www.fas.org/man/eprint/joe2010.pdf
“A severe energy crunch is inevitable without a massive expansion of production and refining capacity. While it is difficult to predict precisely what economic, political, and strategic effects such a shortfall might produce, it surely would reduce the prospects for growth in both the developing and developed worlds. Such an economic slowdown would exacerbate other unresolved tensions, push fragile and failing states further down the path toward collapse, and perhaps have serious economic impact on both China and India. At best, it would lead to periods of harsh economic adjustment. To what extent conservation measures, investments in alternative energy production, and efforts to expand petroleum production from tar sands and shale would mitigate such a period of adjustment is difficult to predict. One should not forget that the Great Depression spawned a number of totalitarian regimes that sought economic prosperity for their nations by ruthless conquest...By 2012, surplus oil production capacity could entirely disappear, and as early as 2015, the shortfall in output could reach nearly 10 million barrels per day...The implications for future conflict are ominous, if energy supplies cannot keep up with demand and should states see the need to militarily secure dwindling energy resources.”

To put that 10 million shortfall into perspective, The US Department of Energy's Energy Information Administration (EIA) estimates that out of approximately 19+ million barrels of oil the US consumes each day over 9 million barrels of oil is consumed as gasoline. IOW a shortfall of 10 million barrels world wide by 2015 would be the same as having every interstate highway to every Podunk road accross all 50 states vacant of gasoline powered autos. 

The Impending World Energy Mess by Dr. Robert Hirsch
Q&A with Dr Robert L. Hirsch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Am1DGjzxBrI&feature=&p=C67C313D080214AA&index=0&playnext=1
HIrsch's bio
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_L._Hirsch

Here's a visual: As crappy as the global economy is it still needs 88,000,000 barrels per day to function on. Those 42-gallon barrels would fill 67,200,000 steel drums. A 55-gallon steel drum is 3 feet tall. If you stack those steel drums end to end they'd stretch 38,182 miles long. That's 1 1/2 times around the earth each day. That volume of oil could fill enough steel drums to encircle the earht 560 times each year. There is not way in hell that volume will every be replaced veggie oils.


http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/print/2009/03/energy-challenge/mckibben-text
National Geographic editorialized the International Energy Agency (IEA) report by saying it would be like putting online a new Kuwait’s worth of oil output every year: "The Energy Information Administration, an arm of the U.S. government, forecast last year that, all things being equal, world energy consumption would increase 50 percent by 2030. That's a good round number, summing up the desire of people across the world for refrigerators, televisions, ice cubes, hamburgers, motorbikes, and maybe even a little air-conditioning in the tropics.”

“But it's not at all clear where that energy can come from, because we happen to be alive at the moment when the oil is starting to run out. In November 2008 the International Energy Agency estimated that production from the world's mature oil fields was declining 6.7 percent a year, a rate that is expected to get even worse over time. Offsetting this decline will require finding a new Kuwait's worth of output every year, or somehow squeezing that much more from existing fields. Many observers think we've already passed the peak of oil production. An optimist in this world is someone who thinks it might still be a matter of years. But there's little question where the future lies, which is why the cost of a barrel of oil spiked to $147 last year. It took the prospect of a Great Recession to bring it back down to $40. Curbing high gas prices with recurrent economic slumps is probably not the smartest of remedies."

And here's that IEA report that National Geographic is talking about:

IEA World Energy Outlook 2008
http://www.iea.org/Textbase/npsum/WEO2008SUM.pdf
Main text
The projected increase in global oil output hinges on adequate and timely investment. Some 64 mb/d of additional gross capacity — the equivalent of almost six times that of Saudi Arabia today — needs to be brought on stream between 2007 and 2030. Some 30 mb/d of new capacity is needed by 2015. There remains a real risk that under-investment will cause an oil-supply crunch in that timeframe. The current wave of upstream investment looks set to boost net oil-production capacity in the next two to three years, pushing up spare capacity modestly. However, capacity additions from current projects tail off after 2010. This largely reflects the upstream development cycle: many new projects will undoubtedly be sanctioned in the near term as oil companies complete existing projects and move on to new ones. But the gap now evident between what is currently being built and what will be needed to keep pace with demand is set to widen sharply after 2010. Around 7 mb/d of additional capacity (over and above that from all current projects) needs to be brought on stream by 2015, most of which will need to be sanctioned within the next two years, to avoid a fall in spare capacity towards the middle of the next decade.

IEA Word Energy Outlook 2008 Press Release
http://www.iea.org/Textbase/press/pressdetail.asp?PRESS_REL_ID=275
The prospect of accelerating declines in production at individual oilfields is adding to these uncertainties. The findings of an unprecedented field-by-field analysis of the historical production trends of 800 oilfields indicate that decline rates are likely to rise significantly in the long term, from an average of 6.7% today to 8.6% in 2030. "Despite all the attention that is given to demand growth, decline rates are actually a far more important determinant of investment needs. Even if oil demand was to remain flat to 2030, 45 mb/d of gross capacity - roughly four times the current capacity of Saudi Arabia - would need to be built by 2030 just to offset the effect of oilfield decline", Mr. Tanaka added


As I read that IEA 2008 report, using a little math, the oil industry needs to put online a new Saudi Arabia every 3.8 years to meet the 6 Saudi Arabia between 2007 to 2030. We need one every 5 years just to keep global oil production from going into decline - that is, to put online the 4 new Saudi Arabias by 2030.

Does anyone in their right mind believe those Saudi Arabias will be put online?

The alternative energy zealots believe we'll do it with bios, or wind, or solar, or whatever. I think these alt energy zealots are insane. And there's enough of them to influence government policy then there are transsexual preppers.

I'll get off my soap box, now.

endurance

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Re: Doomsday Prepper TV show (merged topics)
« Reply #89 on: August 29, 2011, 11:13:11 AM »
Awww, come on Doug, what about all that "easy" energy tied up in those Canadian oil sands.
clicky for youtube on the truth

Everybody wants easy.  Nobody wants the truth.