Author Topic: Something most people don't know about punching  (Read 47361 times)

Offline chrisdfw

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Re: Something most people don't know about punching
« Reply #60 on: October 28, 2010, 08:38:11 PM »
I might give up drinking and drugs, but not sex. I am not sure where illicit sex happens, or what constitutes illicit sex for that matter, but if it includes the
standard meeting women and having sex with the ones kind enough to indulge, I am not giving that up.

Offline phuttan

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Re: Something most people don't know about punching
« Reply #61 on: October 31, 2010, 07:17:23 PM »
It means don't get involved with prostitution, pick up joints, club where people go to get drunk and laid.

Pat

Offline chrisdfw

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Re: Something most people don't know about punching
« Reply #62 on: November 01, 2010, 10:50:41 AM »
It means don't get involved with prostitution, pick up joints, club where people go to get drunk and laid.

Pat


I see... well no women have offered me money to sleep with them lately, so the prostitution is out anyway.

Offline phuttan

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Re: Something most people don't know about punching
« Reply #63 on: November 01, 2010, 07:23:20 PM »

I see... well no women have offered me money to sleep with them lately, so the prostitution is out anyway.

Doesn't that leave you fealing left out.

Offline chrisdfw

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Re: Something most people don't know about punching
« Reply #64 on: November 01, 2010, 07:45:50 PM »
Doesn't that leave you fealing left out.

I can only imagine the problems that would come from the ones who would offer, its probably better this way :)

Offline Orionblade

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Re: Something most people don't know about punching
« Reply #65 on: December 14, 2010, 11:12:26 PM »
Is it prostitution if when you wake up, she's gone, and there's a franklin on the night stand?

Offline chrisdfw

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Re: Something most people don't know about punching
« Reply #66 on: December 15, 2010, 12:21:46 PM »
Is it prostitution if when you wake up, she's gone, and there's a franklin on the night stand?

That depends on how many franklins were on the night stand before she left!

Offline Orionblade

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Re: Something most people don't know about punching
« Reply #67 on: December 19, 2010, 10:28:00 PM »
Ha!

yeah, she made change...

*facepalm*

Offline PistolWhipped

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Re: Something most people don't know about punching
« Reply #68 on: December 28, 2010, 07:07:00 PM »
I read an interesting article on Death Valley Magazine recently.  It proposed that good old fashioned boxing should constitute a great portion of one's H2H combat training.

http://www.deathvalleymag.com/2010/12/06/h2h-why-boxing-is-the-superior-martial-art/

Since I can't post it in it's entirety, I'll condense it.  

Many schools, especially ones selling BJJ or Judo or MMA, like to say that 90% of fights end up on the ground.  A good part of that is that 90% of people don't know hot to end a fight on their feet.

Proper boxing teaches good form for using punches, and what's more, teaches one to knock someone out even with heavy padded gloves on.  Also, the sport of boxing includes a ingrained fitness program.  Furthermore, good coaches will help tailor one's personal boxing style to their strengths.  If one can land a wicked uppercut, a good coach will play to that, and a guy that can hook another guy into next month isn't going to train and fight exactly like a guy that can land 14 jabs before you can finish spitting out your teeth.  Since there is no "traditional forms" to violate, no absolute traditions that must be upheld, and thus it allows near infinite customization to the fighter, without the rote memorization of kata.

And as to effectiveness, go watch some serious bare-knuckle boxers in action.  If you can knock a guy out through pillows taped to your fists, imagine what you can do when the shock absorbers come off.

Offline javabrewer

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Re: Something most people don't know about punching
« Reply #69 on: December 29, 2010, 01:56:47 PM »
UFC 118 Randy Couture versus James Toney.  Couture choked Toney out using an arm triangle mid way in the first round.  Boxing is great it's not perfect.

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Re: Something most people don't know about punching
« Reply #70 on: December 29, 2010, 09:19:10 PM »
I've had a number of boxers ask how I would fight them if I ended up squared off with them (the first half of the conversation was dodging the unlikelihood of me squaring off in a fair fight). So I tell them to square off. Then I tell them to look down. When they realize that I had my foot an inch away from their balls without them noticing they get that sports are sports and combat systems are combat systems. As for fights going to the ground they almost always do. The guy on the ground tends to be dead or dying. Learning to survive that particular type of trip and more importantly learning to get your business done and get back to your feet has value.

Offline PistolWhipped

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Re: Something most people don't know about punching
« Reply #71 on: December 29, 2010, 10:53:39 PM »
Not saying boxing is perfect, or that you should only know boxing.  But, I am more likely to use boxing if some drunk knucklehead in a bar thinks I was eyehumpinging his girl than I am to get into a grappling match in an octagon.  I can break holds just fine and have beat guys into the wall who jumped on my back.  With just my back.  I can grapple to a small degree, which is more than any thug I;ll meet on the street.  But, I also recognize that being able to punch the stupid out of a guy without going to pavement has it's advantages.

Devote more time to more common issues/solutions.  I see normal scuffles as the most likely of my issues, and would devote more training time to that accordingly.  Same for using mace or a handgun.  I'd take a handgun course over a rifle one 10 times out of ten, simply because a handgun will likely be what I have on me in an armed encounter.

Offline phuttan

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Re: Something most people don't know about punching
« Reply #72 on: December 29, 2010, 11:46:45 PM »
Early Combatives training was a mix of boxing and wrestling. Just remember that the trainers trained them in dirty tricks. In other words, they taught them to break all the rules and defend against dirty tricks. Also, they came out of the old bare knuckle rules. These rules were a lot less restrictive. If you want to train boxing or wrestling for defense, learn by the old rules and learn hooking, ripping, etc. and then break all the rules in self defense.

Pat

Offline tween

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Re: Something most people don't know about punching
« Reply #73 on: August 04, 2011, 06:47:39 PM »
until you are supertrained in punching, restrict punches to the body. The body can't move NEARLY as fast as the head and it's much less well protected with heavy bones.  The head is best attacked with the palm heel, or finger gouges to the eyes, or the elbow, or head butt. It takes about 200 hours of small class hard work to train a strong, young, disciplined  man to be pretty good at karate, spread over about 7 months, so his body can grow to the demands being put upon it.

Offline donaldj

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Re: Something most people don't know about punching
« Reply #74 on: August 09, 2011, 06:29:59 PM »
The head is best attacked with the palm heel, or finger gouges to the eyes, or the elbow, or head butt.

For the record, this is some of the worst advice I've ever seen offered. I know the guy is banned, but for follow-up readership, please do not take this statement with any validity.

Punch when you need to in self defense. In training, ensure you have many, many other tools in your toolbox, and use the most appropriate tool for the job.

Offline Chemsoldier

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Re: Something most people don't know about punching
« Reply #75 on: August 17, 2011, 05:02:25 PM »
For the record, this is some of the worst advice I've ever seen offered. I know the guy is banned, but for follow-up readership, please do not take this statement with any validity.

Punch when you need to in self defense. In training, ensure you have many, many other tools in your toolbox, and use the most appropriate tool for the job.
This thread seems to attract interesting people doesnt it?  Plenty of good people have posted but a number of others are...no longer with us.

Hare of Caerbannog

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Re: Something most people don't know about punching
« Reply #76 on: August 17, 2011, 06:14:06 PM »
This thread seems to attract interesting people doesnt it?  Plenty of good people have posted but a number of others are...no longer with us.
ROFL!
+1 from me.
LOL

Offline RootStrike

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Re: Something most people don't know about punching
« Reply #77 on: October 21, 2011, 09:16:54 PM »
These are some good things to keep in mind. I've only done punching training on pads, heavy bags, wall bag with rice and/or pebbles, and a hard pad on a dummy. I can see how a hard object like a head can be bad for a hand. I've noticed that dog skulls are also incredibly tough!

In Wing Chun you often use strikes to the body, solar plexus, floating ribs, neck, knees, groin, etc., usually when close. The best power is when you literally step into someone's spot, or even through them, and that way the attack penetrates with way more power versus 'reaching out.' In close spaces like bathroom stalls, planes, corridors, etc. an elbow/forearm to the neck or side of neck is powerful.

I think a great policy is to not look for trouble, nor to "rile up" angry people. Move along if you can.

Another great class to attend is Target Focus Training. They have a 2-day course over a weekend, at various places each year. They do a lot of discussion of physics, momentum, mass, etc., and most of the strikes are delivered right next to and through a target. A hard punch to the solar plexus can seriously inhibit breathing. Many of their strikes involve a hard kick right to the groin, or attacks to liver, spleen, or kidney, or eyes too.

Tim Larkin has often said, "violence is rarely the answer; but when it is, it's the only answer." He stresses that the best plan is to avoid ego conflicts. You never want to "fight" people, nor 'square off.' You are not "defending" anything. If you are attacked, all you focus on is INJURE - INJURE - INJURE to nonfunctional. No "trading", no pretty stuff. Violence is either being done BY you or TO you.

They tell several stories, and provide video clips, of situations where someone got into 'ego fights' and was seriously injured or killed, often accidentally. The neck has a variety of targets, as does the eyes, etc.

a comment I love from the TSP podcast is I think from Frank Sharpe Jr "don't go to stupid places with stupid people and do stupid stuff" and that cuts down the risk.

But yes I carry a firearm as often as legal, along with a knife, a light, and pepper spray, and my fists/elbows/knees and BRAIN so multiple options are there. And I pray for strength and power from God when I need it.

inbox485

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Re: Something most people don't know about punching
« Reply #78 on: October 24, 2011, 11:12:44 AM »
If all the input you want to put into hand to hand training is watching some DVD's and maybe practicing with a friend a few times, you could do worse than Target Focus, but I watched that series, and I have to say I wasn't impressed. Lots of might work / probably won't stuff. The philosophy and mental aspects were spot on, and that by itself will fix most problems, but the techniques looked inbred.

Offline RootStrike

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Re: Something most people don't know about punching
« Reply #79 on: October 24, 2011, 02:04:20 PM »
I do have some DVD's, but that is not what I meant. The people on the DVD's are practice partners who are demonstrating lightly hitting the targets, so it looks more 'rehearsed'. I attended the live training, it is 2 full days.

You are on the mats all day with other folks, you rotate through partners. You don't talk (or the instructor yells at you to shut up). You practice in S L O W, careful movement, and you press on the injury target (which can hurt). There is some practice with objects like knives and replica handguns. You even practice taking out knees and ankles, heads, neck, eyes, etc., all sorts of things from standing, sitting, lying, all fours, front, back, or side, etc. You practice everything super slow for accuracy - then later (outside of the class) you can add speed when your life is threatened.

A nice thing about the smashing of targets is that you don't need to "guess" as much as when, say, you shoot someone. "Did I shoot them enough times?"... When you get a spinal reflex reaction, and the assailant cannot move or breathe, or is unconscious, etc. you will know the threat is neutralized. It is actually kind of scary to realize how people can be seriously injured or killed, and often accidentally. So it is sobering as well, and they show video footage of prisoner violence as well as some police stops, etc.

Plus, the whole focus is not "defending" or "blocking", etc. - it is striking targets. Somebody will be doing the violence - either you or the attacker. You are not looking for trouble, you are responding to a threat.

I learned way more doing that live than watching anything. Like with our martial arts class, when you are striking and moving and working on the dummy, etc, you do the movements so much that you just 'move' instinctually. But of course I still am a praying man and don't look for trouble. I feel that the TFT principles can enhance Wing Chun and other close striking arts.

A great focus of TFT, and of Wing Chun too, is that there is not "only one way" to punch this or deflect this or such. You learn principles, and then "whatever" target you see, you hit that one. Then the next one.

I am strongly considering attending a refresher live training in the future.

But in any event this thread is about the hands and how they can break easily, so I will keep that in mind, punch to softer targets or use other appendages and objects, including also firearms, knives, etc.

Offline Shaunypoo

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Re: Something most people don't know about punching
« Reply #80 on: October 24, 2011, 02:29:00 PM »
I also learned this the hard way by getting a boxers break a few years ago.  I am looking into taking self defense and want to avoid punching with my fists as much as possible.  My hands are in great shape otherwise, and I would like to keep them that way.  I am looking into taking Krav Maga since it stresses finishing the fight as fast as possible and punching isn't emphasized.  It also seems like a good outlet for my aggression.

inbox485

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Re: Something most people don't know about punching
« Reply #81 on: October 25, 2011, 03:19:42 PM »
I'm sure the seminars and classes are better than the DVD's, but it was the methods themselves that seemed sketchy. I find 99% of people fall either in the category of people that overestimate the resilience of the human body or underestimate it. From what I saw from TFT (and KM) is they fall to the extreme of later. Lots of stuff that might work, might not and very little plan B thinking. They are what are referred to as grunt or peasant systems. If you teach it to 1000 people and they go fight 1000 untrained brutes, 800 will come back okay by what they learned, and victory will be yours. That's fine if you need a military type style (especially if hand to hand is not only not primary, secondary, or ever tertiary, but rather all but an afterthought) and 20% casualty rates are okay, but if the one survivor you care about is you, then you can do better that 80% odds.

Offline Vaquero1

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Re: Something most people don't know about punching
« Reply #82 on: October 27, 2011, 07:36:56 AM »
 To  Tommy Jeferson   who says " In self-defense situations you should avoid hitting an opponent with your hands or feet.

You are more likely to break your hand than disable your opponent. It's happened to me twice in real street fights. It's disabling. Drawing your weapon or opening a car door becomes almost impossible.

This is why boxers wear gloves. "     
  What a crap !   I can tell you  this guy  never been in real street fight  .  Boxers wear gloves to protect  OPPONENTS . That's why we call it BOXING .   Bus Rutten  MMA legend, first man to hold UFC  title in two weight classes  and he is  NEVER  wrap his hands .  Just train properly punching  and you'll be ok . And use  your palms as well .

Offline Vaquero1

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Re: Something most people don't know about punching
« Reply #83 on: October 27, 2011, 07:47:58 AM »
It's not.  One of my good friends is/was a Shotokan instructor.  He studied in Japan in the 1960's.  They set him on a regimen of "hardening".  He did it religiously for a few years. 

Now he is in his 50's and his hands are useless claws.  He can barely zip up his pants.  I've watched him zip up in restaurant bathrooms.  It's a sad spectacle.  He can't type.  He wears cowboy boots and velcro sneakers because he can't tie shoelaces.

I've seen middle-aged Muay Thai guys who can't walk because of hardening their shins.  I have difficulty walking on planks or logs because my toe joints are so messed up from breaking boards for various belt tests over the years.

I'm totally against "hardening" in modern training.  Just like the "dynamic stretching" we were taught back in the day (which actually tears muscle so much it reduces flexibility), It's ridiculous nonsense taught to us by old men who didn't know any better.  Medical research and sports science has improved a lot since 1969.
    Hey Tommy  , I'm  53 years old ,  I did broke God knows how many boards  and my hands is perfectly fine . And I can punch some punk in a face and it won't be pleasant for him . Most likely he ends  up with serious injury or dead .  By the way  , I play guitar ,  classical and electric  on highest level .  Like I said  , you have to train PROPERLY .

Offline Shaunypoo

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Re: Something most people don't know about punching
« Reply #84 on: October 27, 2011, 09:00:20 AM »
I think that is the point of the thread, most people don't train on how to punch people.  The complexs system that are your hands and feet can easily break, sprain, strain, and bruise that most of us who are untrained are more likely to break something simply because we don't know the correct form.  And since every person is physiologically different in some respects, maybe others are more prone to bone breakages or ligament sprains than others are.  If you are good at breaking boards and it has not adversely affected your hands, then congratulation, you win.  Maybe the guy who was a Shotokan instructor did in one week what you have done in a lifetime.  It is hard to judge anothers experiences, but real easy to call him out on a message board.

Offline Vaquero1

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Re: Something most people don't know about punching
« Reply #85 on: October 27, 2011, 03:50:01 PM »
 "   Maybe the guy who was a Shotokan instructor did in one week what you have done in a lifetime. " .... Maybe this Shotokan instructor did it in one hour   ? :)  That's the point  :  you have to do training properly . My bone is  no different from anyone . What is different is training . If I use this  guy method I probably would end up exactly like he is . But this is stupid . You have to use your brain . Many friends of mine trained in Sotokan  and none of them having any problem . The point is :  it's OK to punch punk in a face . This is fastest  and  safest way to solve  a  problem . Anyone who telling you opposite   know nothing about fighting . And I assume you do know you have to at least  squeeze the fist  properly  before you punch anybody :)

Offline Truik

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Re: Something most people don't know about punching
« Reply #86 on: October 27, 2011, 04:54:57 PM »
This topic can be discussed rationally or it will be locked.


Offline phuttan

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Re: Something most people don't know about punching
« Reply #87 on: October 28, 2011, 01:43:56 AM »
To  Tommy Jeferson   who says " In self-defense situations you should avoid hitting an opponent with your hands or feet.

You are more likely to break your hand than disable your opponent. It's happened to me twice in real street fights. It's disabling. Drawing your weapon or opening a car door becomes almost impossible.

This is why boxers wear gloves. "     
  What a crap !   I can tell you  this guy  never been in real street fight  .  Boxers wear gloves to protect  OPPONENTS . That's why we call it BOXING .   Bus Rutten  MMA legend, first man to hold UFC  title in two weight classes  and he is  NEVER  wrap his hands .  Just train properly punching  and you'll be ok . And use  your palms as well .

Gloves and mouth pieces are to protect the sticker, not the opponent. If you don't believe me look at fight in the late 1800's and early 1900's under London Prize Ring Rules. No gloves or mouth pieces. The number one finishing technique was the knee drop. They didn't finish people with head strikes. The gloves are to protect the strikers hand and so is the mouth piece. Teeth will cut your fingers off if you punch bare fist to the mouth.

Pat

inbox485

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Re: Something most people don't know about punching
« Reply #88 on: October 28, 2011, 10:53:01 AM »
A lot of theoretical stuff here. Ask people who have spent real quality time punching real people in the face bare handed. I spent years of my life where Friday fight night night usually spilled into Monday and Wednesday, eventually Tuesday and Thursday as well. I've injured a knuckle a few times and I've broken the same proximal metacarpal three times. Not a single one of those hand injuries happened during a fight though. I've only seen a few people injure their hands by hitting a head and it involved punching to the head while the head was against the floor or a wall. Don't do that. Also the mouth guard thing has more to do with the dynamics of boxing (and MMA in more recent years) IMO. If you keep your mouth shut and your teeth slightly clenched, you don't need one. The mouth guard matters when you are fighting in rounds and are so tired and drained you can't keep your own mouth shut.

Offline Truik

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Re: Something most people don't know about punching
« Reply #89 on: October 28, 2011, 08:54:52 PM »
A lot of theoretical stuff here.

Indeed there is.

It would seem this topic has culminated a stale mate.

I don't foresee a reasonable resolution to the OP's quandary here and the tangents are all too frequent.

Goodbye, thread.