Author Topic: Protecting yourself from an aggresive dog attack  (Read 9530 times)

Offline surfivor

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Re: Protecting yourself from an aggresive dog attack
« Reply #30 on: January 31, 2012, 05:56:09 AM »
Quote
Main issue with sticks / clubs / etc. is that they wouldn't be my first choice (my first choice being pepper spray followed by a .45 if necessary) and in most states that aren't either shall issue or effectively shall issue, sticks and clubs are not only illegal, but it is a more serious crime than carrying a gun w/o a permit (the reason why is a bit OT, but think Jim Crow). Hate to have the legislature rain on liberty's parade, but staying out of jail is a liberty worth balancing.

Both guns and pepper spray can be illegal to carry without a permit or can be stolen, pepper spray may expire. I mean you can be charged for having the gun without an incident. You can't really be charged for having a stick on your person or in your car. I mean you could say it's a walking stick, how I they going to know ? I could say it's a bean pole for growing vegetables. You're only charged when you use the stick. I'm not sure why self defense with a stick is a more serious crime ? It kind of goes back to concept that self defense could be illegal, so I don't know. Are you supposed to thank people for robbing you or having their dog bite you ? I kind of figure, if the govt can have a huge arsenal of nuclear and biological weapons, tanks, air craft carriers and so on, I as a citizen should be allowed to have and use a stick if necessary or is that unreasonable ?

  Some people don't have guns for various reasons at any rate and I can go out in the woods and cut a stick for free and don't have to buy ammo for it. If you have to worry that defending yourself is illegal, maybe that thought alone could tick you off enough to get up enough energy to mess up the dog in some way. I don't know, it is true some dogs are pretty mean, but like the other guy said, the stick arm in mouth concept might work in some circumstances and is not the only possible means.

 If a stick is illegal, and a gun is illegal, then I guess owning a dog should be illegal as well ? Maybe lifting weights should be illegal ? Otherwise what is a poor boy to do in the same old rockn roll band ?


 Here are some other things I like about the stick weapon .. A stick is something you practice with to develop muscle memory, coordination and is a form of exercise. Even just practicing with a stick could in some ways improve your body coordination and make you a better fighter even if you had no stick.

 Perhaps if you got really good with a stick, you could scare off the dog or discourage the dog without having to harm the dog as badly. I suppose the lawyers would still have a problem there, although a lawyer is just another weapon of a different sort. In your defense you could argue that you practice kung fu for exercise and because you admire asian culture or you like the people at the school, you never planned to attack anyone and just happened to have a walking stick that day while you where out walking.




« Last Edit: January 31, 2012, 06:14:03 AM by surfivor »

inbox485

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Re: Protecting yourself from an aggresive dog attack
« Reply #31 on: February 01, 2012, 06:57:51 PM »
When I recommended this, it was intended for an incident where a decent-sized dog has already clamped down on your arm or leg. By no means do I recommend actively pursuing an animal to shove a body part down its throat. And, of course, its not intended for dachshunds and chihuahuas. 

As far as its applicability, the concept is all too appealing when a pitbull has a deathgrip on the arm with which you would normally draw your weapon.

Finally, it isn't intended as a method of dispatching the animal. It is a method of freeing your body part.



Agreed. It was a clarification reply to surf. I added the clarification because I've seen BSA/YMCA/Barns&Nobel Survivalist guides that actually recommend doing that on purpose.

And it is actually perfect for dachshunds and chihuahuas. When those stupid b@$tard yip rats try to nip you it is like some twisted little 3 year old that kicks you in the shins because they don't think you'd hit them back. Shoving half your fist in their mouth is a nice "non violent appearing" way to tell the little capetas to go screw.

Offline Josh the Aspie

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Re: Protecting yourself from an aggresive dog attack
« Reply #32 on: May 25, 2012, 03:13:06 PM »
According to a fair number of survival shows I've watched, the hand down the throat technique is highly encouraged for any animal that uses it's teeth as a weapon, from dogs all the way up to lions and tigers.  Also, even if you can't get the correct angle or leverage for that, the area near the back of the animal's mouth will be very sensitive.  When small animals have bitten my hand, I've simply shoved it back into their mouth in the past.  This is actually similar to shoving a block into the joint of nearly any hinge, and can cause the animal's mouth to open automatically, and you are moving in the same direction as the points of their teeth, thus reducing any tearing.  Further, pain and gag reflexes are often triggered, causing the animal to want to get away.

So rather than jerking your arm back, shoving it forward is usually an effective tactic, even if it's held across your body, and is perpendicular to the axis of the animal's throat.

Again, this is what to do when already bitten.

Offline donaldj

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Re: Protecting yourself from an aggresive dog attack
« Reply #33 on: May 26, 2012, 10:14:05 PM »
I have already ordered a stun gun that will fit into my tool pouch and be close by should I ever need it...for man or beast.

Go with the pepper spray and go for on-body carry.  It's more reliable, easier to use, and far less expensive.

See if your state allows for expandable baton carry. Pepper spray has a 10-15 second onset time while its inflammatories take effect (oleoresin capsicum). Having a means of warding an assailant of any kind off while the OC takes effect is nice.
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Offline occeltic

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Re: Protecting yourself from an aggresive dog attack
« Reply #34 on: June 01, 2012, 01:54:11 PM »
I appreciate the continued responses to my post, and thankfully haven't had to deal with an aggressive dog or individual in the course of my day. I keep the stun gun close by, but not at my side...which is of some concern. I favor carrying a sidearm and a pepper spray as extra protection should the stun gun fail. My biggest concern with the stun gun is not knowing if it has a full charge or not, as it sits inside my van for days without use, and it's not recommended by the manufacturer to test it to often as it can damage the device. It's a shame that I have to work in an environment that has created the need for protection in the first place. With the current "zombie" attacks and feasting in the news, I'm more concerned about the wild humans than I am about the wild dogs!

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Offline Cedar

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Re: Protecting yourself from an aggresive dog attack
« Reply #35 on: June 01, 2012, 03:05:18 PM »
I did private dog training for a bit. Actually I pretty much got suckered into this one. It was a client who had a McNab Stock Dog. These dogs are very cat-footed, very fast and agile, weigh about 50 pounds, one-family dog, does not tolerate stray dogs, strange people or animals. SOOOOO.. of course this dog was owned by people who owned a 100 acre commercial U-Pick berry farm and wanted me to socialize him so he was safe around the public. They loved him very much and wanted to keep him in their family.

My introduction to this dog was him coming flying at me in front of his family, my assistant and whatever deities observing with his mouth wide open, teeth gleaming more than ready to bite and me holding onto the end of his leash. I did not even think about it, there was no time to. Out of all observers, assistants, deities, the dog or me, I have no idea who had the widest eyes. This time I was quicker than the dog, grabbed him up on his nape while I think he may have been in mid-leap, in the middle of his back and started twirling around and around to keep his teeth from my arm and his feet off the ground while I thought of plan B as the teeth were getting closer and closer.

I am pretty sure my next move was to pretty much toss the dog to his side. At this point, I was just trying to save my own hide and not caring if the owners had me back or sued me. I was sure that my upper hand in the situation had a precarious hold and it might have been to his advantage at any millisecond. His back was to me, I did my 'vet tech hold' and had my weight on his neck with my left arm while pretty much laying on the ground and grabbed his lower side front leg and pulled up. My right leg was over the dog's lower body holding him down. My assistant brought me the 3" roll gauze to use as a muzzle (I trust the gauze more).

I am not SUGGESTING this is the best or safest way to deal with a dog intent on biting you, but it is **A** way that worked. It was a way which worked without a weapon. You CAN choke down a dog from this position. You can hold a dog pretty much indefinitely until help comes along. It gives you more time to grab your weapon if you are wearing one to dispatch the dog if needed. I did not plan it, but there was an opportunity, an opening and I took it.



I know SOMEONE wants to know about the end of the story, soooo... The owners were impressed even though I had to flatten their dog for a few minutes. For 6 weeks I had to approach this dog while it was muzzled. To give the owners and dog credit.. I wanted to see what the dog would do, so I could come up with a plan on how to train him, they did offer to muzzle him the first time I met him. I declined. After that first experience with him, I massaged the dog while muzzled and laying on his side with me pretty much laying on him. I knew I was winning when he saw me that 6th time and he flopped over on his own to get his weekly massage. Socializing him with other people came after that while he was muzzled. After 12 weeks his owners had the basics and skills learned to continue with this dog alone. The dog was fine with people coming onto the farm after 10 weeks, but I still recommended him to be inside the fence and not free roaming when people were coming to pick. I had the owners friends touch the dog and then I rewarded him. Then onto strangers (and warmed the strangers about the dog's past).  But the dog no longer was charging the fence and destroying it to get to people on the other side. A year later he was still doing well..

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Offline Morning Sunshine

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Re: Protecting yourself from an aggresive dog attack
« Reply #36 on: June 01, 2012, 03:53:05 PM »
I know SOMEONE wants to know about the end of the story, soooo...
Cedar

yup, that someone was me.  I was all thinking that you were not going to finish it, and am very glad you did  ;D
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Offline Cedar

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Re: Protecting yourself from an aggresive dog attack
« Reply #37 on: June 01, 2012, 04:40:55 PM »
I almost didn't...  ;)

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Offline markl32

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Re: Protecting yourself from an aggresive dog attack
« Reply #38 on: August 13, 2012, 12:11:20 PM »


3) Should a dog come charging you, the use of an air horn might be an option to both scare the dog and alert owners and nieghbors of the situation.

4) Arm yourself with a non-leathal weapon.  Face it, no matter how much your life is in potential jeapordy, you do not want to shoot or stab someone's dog.  And I am sure your employer will not allow you to go in armed. So I recommend a stun gun, the small contact kind, not the ones that shoot darts on wires the police use.  Pepper spray would be an option but i dont like it as it can blow back in your face on a windy day.  A deterant (air horn) in one hand and a non leathal weapon (stun gun in the other) would be my prefered way of facing a dog threat.


 :o

I hope no one takes this advice seriously. 




Offline markl32

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Re: Protecting yourself from an aggresive dog attack
« Reply #39 on: August 13, 2012, 12:23:45 PM »

I have found that running straight at the dog with every outward sign of being ready to fight (even showing my teeth) has work in most cases - they run away and let me pass.  Of the cases where that did not work I found choking them out with their own collar has done the trick. 

I have not yet had to dispatch a dog with a gun or blade.  Came close to shooting a dog once when I was walking with children in a stroller.  I don't know enough about Dog behavior to know for sure but it seamed to sense I gave zero fucks about ventilating it. 

I liked reading all the other advice in this post and will keep it in mind if ever needed. 

on a side note I do keep a blade in each front pocket and this subject just reinforced my decision to do so.  I'd like to know that there is a blade for whatever hand is not being chewed on. 


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Re: Protecting yourself from an aggresive dog attack
« Reply #40 on: August 13, 2012, 03:08:58 PM »
:o

I hope no one takes this advice seriously. 


Easy there. Depending on the circumstances that might be the best advice to follow. Response is always conditioned on circumstances. Frankly I'd love nothing more than to see every vicious dog (and the vast majority of the owners) get the business end of a 12 ga, but that isn't how this society works. If you can carry a gun, I can't think of a more strait forward tool for dealing with vicious dogs. But if your circumstances preclude that option, you have to consider other options... such as the advice that was offered.

Offline markl32

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Re: Protecting yourself from an aggresive dog attack
« Reply #41 on: August 14, 2012, 12:21:53 AM »
Easy there. Depending on the circumstances that might be the best advice to follow. Response is always conditioned on circumstances. Frankly I'd love nothing more than to see every vicious dog (and the vast majority of the owners) get the business end of a 12 ga, but that isn't how this society works. If you can carry a gun, I can't think of a more strait forward tool for dealing with vicious dogs. But if your circumstances preclude that option, you have to consider other options... such as the advice that was offered.

There are far too many good people that think they can stop a violent attack with some non violent means.  Until we invent the star trek stun gun this is largely fantasy. 

An air horn?  A stun gun?  Sorry I have to call it when I see it.  Its a dangerous mind set. 

The straight forward tool is a folding pocket knife or some sort of sharp and/or heavy trade tool. 

I guess I should just ignore this stuff as I don't want to run afoul of the play nice in the sand box rules here, but I post opposing points of view in hopes of saving my fellow board members lots of pain and heartache.   

Offline blademan

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Re: Protecting yourself from an aggresive dog attack
« Reply #42 on: November 20, 2012, 10:21:51 AM »
I knoew this has been dead for a while, but I wanted to throw in my experience and thoughts.

  One, the arm shoving technique will work most of the time. If you are dealing with an trained attack dog, ( assuming you didn't ask for it, so bad guys turn your head for a moment) it will in all likely hood attack your ankle or hold onto your clothing, they are trained in some cases not to attack the arms for this reason. Also if the right dog (such as in the OP's case a pit bull) getsd your arm in its mouth and its serious about it, there may be no shoving anything anywhere. It could break your arm and pierce your muscle and bone, holding your arm in place not to mention the pain from such a bite. 
    There are a couple things I have used and seen used effectively and a couple techniques I have read that make sense. One the agressive behavior and fast movement approach works pretty well to prevent most attacks, but if you are already being attacked, you may have to back it up because the dog either sees you as inferior to it or you are invading its space without having established dominanace or it has been trained to attack and ordered to attack you for whatever reason. This sums up most dog attacks.
      So here's is something I have used personally and have had firends use with great success.
   A typical mail order, or gun show, or pawn shop stun gun.
  Size and power doesn't mattrer, you probably won't have to touch the dog with it. Just test one and get the loudest one that is of a size that you could carry. And make sure it has a well designed safety and isn't too hard or easy to activate. I have used this and this is how it works, an dog starts acting agressive toward me. If it gets close enough to me that I fear for an attack, out comes the stun gun and I just activate it in the air. The dog usually runs, not walks away. I have never had to touch a dog with it, but since they are theoretically designed to drop a thug, if you had to, it would more than likely work. In all cases I have either used or had a friend use it, the dog left when it heard the zap sound the stun gun makes.  If you carried this on the job, I would recommend carrying it scout style in horizontal sheath in the middle of the back of your belt and make sure you can get to it with either hand, so a smaller slimmer model would be good for this. You could carry it in a breast pocket too and get to it easily with either hand. Tasers (the actual brand name AirTaser) probably aren't the best idea for this, though the cicvilian model, is the size of a cell phone and can be carried easily in the ways I mentioned. I believe the delux model has a flash light and has the option of being used in a close contact mode like a traditional stun gun or being fired into a target the way people are most familiar with. The firing option could be problematic for dog defense due to the smaller target and the location of the target and its capability of quickness and manuverability. A good bright flash light if used at night can break off agressive behavior and is even better if you flash the light rapidly on and off in the dogs face. May not work all the time, but I have had good results.
   Pepper spray was first marketed as a dog repellent for mail carriers (so I was told when I was being trained in the use of it) and then was used by police. So its an effective measure too.
 There are some tactics that I have read in a military manual for dealing with dog attack when a firearm is unavailable or impractical, but due to the terminal nature of these methods, I wll leave the OP and other interested people to look for and find those methods.
   With all that being said, here is a better way, situational awareness is the best prevention for a dog attack. Dogs usually attack when threatened, cornered or in the right situation, when trained and ordered to do so.
Try to avoid threatening the dog or encroaching on its territory without acertaining if there is a dog that lives there and conferring with the owner as to how to deal with the animal..
 Its pretty easy to avoid putting yourself in a situation where a dog may be ordered to attack you, and if you are in that situation, you have more problems than just the dog. The methods I mentioned above will work, but it is better to avoid having to use them by avoiding provoking a dog either on purpose or by accident, that way you don't have to get bitten, hurt an animal that is doing what it sees as the right thing to do, and you don't have to deal with the pain in the ass of angry irrational owners, bites, police and the whole rigamarole that is a dog attack. 
Man's mind is his basic tool of survival.
Fear is the mind killer.

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Offline occeltic

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Re: Protecting yourself from an aggresive dog attack
« Reply #43 on: November 20, 2012, 08:05:45 PM »

Thanks for your input blademan! I did purchase a baton style stun gun, and keep it fairly handy. My problem is remembering to keep it charged! When first purchased, the flashlight told me the charge was good, but it no longer works. I have so many other items to manage a charge on, that the s gun usually is dead. I know, not a very good scenario.
Fortunately for me, I haven't had to put it into action since my original post. :)

Thanks again!

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Offline blademan

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Re: Protecting yourself from an aggresive dog attack
« Reply #44 on: November 20, 2012, 09:53:03 PM »
Occeltic,
   I have issues with dual use tools. Sometimes they don't do either of the things they are supposed to do very well. Not always the case. The claw hammer for instance is an example of a dual use item that works super well. But with the stun batons that I have seen and held, they seemed lile they might not take a clubbing very well. I'm not telling you to ditch it and its better than nothing or having a dogs mouth wrapped around some part of your body, but it does have some disadvantages, a few you pointed out. One, sturdiness, will it deliver a effective blow wiithout breaking apart. And will all of its other functions survive that use? It would be unfortunated if you used it for a club and the the flashlight and stunner broke. And the battery issue is a bit scary, its rechargeable, I would rather use one that rean off of non rechargeable alkaline 9v batteries. They just work better for this application and with the ammount of use its likely to see, the cost of batteries probably won't be a concern.
  Also, this configuration is by your admission not one that lends to you having it with you when you might need it. Also even should you make yourself carry it, you are running the risk of making people scared or worse calling the police because some wierd dude is walking around with a large scary black electro stun stick of mayhem and death. This I know is stupid but you know how people are. The smaller one would probably be a better and less risky option, and if you just feel better with a stick to swing ( I don't blame you, it works well) check your laws and see if you can carry an expandable baton on your belt. I would wear this horizontal close to the buckle so thay either hand could get to it. They are small and easy to carry. Make sure you can legally carry it and don't advetise it.
    Someone mentioned a knife. It will work. But I would not do this except in the most dire situation. Why, well mostly for the reasons I mentioned above about why a dog attacks.  Its not usually the dogs fault he attacked you. That and using a knife on someone's pet doing what it should do will really get the owners mad at you and probably get you featured on "asshole of the week" on the evening news at best and possibly arrested and jailed and fined and sued at worst.  Only if my life was actually threatened by a dog or dogs would I go this route. Same with a gun. Dogs are generally good animals and not killing them over a misunderstanding is worth a few nips or bites.
 I have been attacked by a dog twice in which the dog was not reasonably provoked by me. (Twice in 5 years by the same dog in two different areas.) It was a mistreated dog that hated bicycles and I was riding a bicycle. I wouldn't believe this if it hadn't happened to me, so if you don't believe me I don't blame you at all, but its true. One time the dog jumped out of a vehicle to chase me and the other time it jumped over its fence to persue. It wasn't my fault in any reasonable sense but the dog was attacking a threat as he percieved it. This is why most dogs attack and I think that shooting or stabbing a dog for this reason is wrong unless it is the only way such as a dog that is stronger than you or attacking a child or defensless person. I had a knife both times and never considered using it. I was scared angry and frustrated the second time but simply got away until the dog left or was retrieved. Deadly force has its appropriate and moral uses, but I feel that this isn't often one of them.
 Hope this makes sense and helps.
Man's mind is his basic tool of survival.
Fear is the mind killer.

Two rules for a happy life:
1. Never sling shit at an armed man.
2. Never stand next to someone who is slinging shit at an armed man.

Offline flippydidit

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Re: Protecting yourself from an aggresive dog attack
« Reply #45 on: November 21, 2012, 01:43:23 AM »
Disclaimer - Possibly the longest reply ever.....my apologies.

My experiences with dog attacks started when I was 14.  The first time was my uncle's Pekingese and it latched onto my hand while I was feeding it.  There was no leverage to force my hand further down his throat, and I doubt I would have had the sense to do it at that age.  I shook him in the air until he released, and by reflex was able to punt him to the other side of the yard while he was still mid-air.  Just a few stitches, but very lucky.

The second time I was 17 (by this time I had done a lot of martial arts).  Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles was pretty popular at the time also.  I had a habit of carrying around a heavy duty shovel handle that I twirled around like a bo staff.  I was walking my two younger brothers (8 and 5) to church youth group.  Our neighbor had two untrained Rottweilers.  The wife opened the front door to go to her car, and both dogs rushed out to the opposite side of the street where we were.  One dog stopped short and didn't attack.  The other dog ran around me and tried to grab my youngest brother around his waist.  Luckily he had on a heavy winter coat.  My reaction was to beat the ever loving piss out of the dog with the shovel handle.  The entire time the neighbor was screaming, "Stop hitting my dog!".  The police came and took a report.  The dog was put down, and they said it had it's back broken in seven places.  My brother had to have stitches, even though the dog couldn't get a good hold on him.

When I was a soldier in Kosovo, we had to do patrols through villages and countryside 24/7.  Our ROE (Rules Of Engagement) were clear about the use of deadly force, and it had to be life or death only.  On a couple occasions I was accosted by dogs.  One of the times I was patrolling with 6 French soldiers (joint operations) and we entered a small village courtyard at about 0300 in the morning.  A dog the size of a horse growled and charged me.  The French soldiers....(wait for it).....ran away.  I yelled at the dog, but it didn't even hesitate.  So I charged it.  I think that's the only thing that helped me.  It put me in the aggressive mindset, and we had trained that way normally.  That was how I was able to have enough momentum to control the dog (it was freakin' huge).  It went for my face, and I side stepped enough to control his neck.  I put it into a "modified" rear naked choke and took it to the ground (just like my Sambo and Army Combatives training).  It was knocked unconscious in about 10 seconds.  When it woke I was on top much like Cedar mentioned with the veterinarian technician technique.  Although, I had used some flex cuffs (heavy duty zip-strips/zip-ties) to fabricate a muzzle for it.  The French soldiers were waiting for me about 3 miles down the road in the up-armored Humvees.

In Iraq we had a much more "loose" ROE requirement.  If you felt threatened, you were clear to engage the threat.  There were countless times on patrol that feral dog packs would attack.  It was more or less "weapons free" as long as you had a deliberate backstop (5.56 NATO) tends to go through dogs and out the other side.  Eventually the dogs avoided our patrols.  One of the times, we had EOD (Explosives Ordnance Disposal) come out to blow up an IED (Improvised Explosive Device) we had found.  It was about midnight, and their robot was using a bright light and driving toward the IED.  I noticed a dog pack running toward the robot (which apparently caught their attention).  The EOD tech hollered back, "Shoot the dogs, they'll wreck the robot!".  The entire squad ventilated those dogs.

After the birth of my third son, we were out walking after dinner with the infant in the stroller sleeping.  It was approaching dusk and we still lived in the suburbs.  About two blocks away a dog started running toward us.  At about 20 feet away my hand was firmly on my Springfield XD45.  It SLOWED, started walking, and was wagging it's tail.  It trotted right up to the stroller and started licking our son's face.  He woke up giggling.  It was one of the cutest things I had ever seen and warmed my heart immensely.  I had forgotten that my hand was still on my handgun.  It goes to show, that you can't always predict dogs.  Not every encounter is terrible.

Those are some of my experiences.  I'd advise that in most cases it is best to keep the dog from ever contacting you or a loved one.  With rabies being so prevalent in foreign countries, it is almost a requirement.  However, there are definitely exceptions to those rules.  It will be your responsibility to assess the situation and determine your own reaction.  That choice might be made for you if there is little or no time to react.  If that is the case, then end the fight fast.

The owner can attempt to sue you all they want.  Here are the facts (I'm not a lawyer, but I think most would agree).  The owner is responsible for the actions of their pet.  If that pet attacks you, they are liable.  If they have a "Beware of Dog" sign, in most States that is a legally precedent statement of liability (courts have ruled that it is an admission that you knew your dog is dangerous).

Areas I would target on a dog attack:
1)  The choke.  (With the goal to be to take the dog to the ground and keep yourself on top.)
2)  The legs.  (Dog's legs are thin and spindly most of the time.  You should be able to break or dislocate their legs/joints, even with one hand.)
3)  The face.  (Prior to the dog getting a bite in, I would kick at it's face as hard as I could.)

I would avoid shooting the dog at all costs in a residential area.  I've seen many bullets pass through dogs and out into the unknown.  However, on our property, the dog would get shot long before it bit someone (hopefully).
Nate
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Offline chezrad

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Re: Protecting yourself from an aggresive dog attack
« Reply #46 on: November 21, 2012, 06:08:01 AM »
After reading all this I find I am struck by a question. Since the OP is a field Tech, I assume that he carries hand tools. Possibly even in a tool pouch at his side. I carried one for years and could have a tool in my hands without looking quickly. I will also assume that a screwdriver is "common kit" as the British might say. so the question is this; have you ever considered a common screwdriver as a last ditch weapon? (or a pair of needle nose pliers for that matter) So while fido is busy delighting in the bouquet of the blood running down your arm (while you are trying to shove your arm into the back of fido's throat...yes it does work) you have the option of treating the mongrel like a pincushion. Getting shanked with a screwdriver would probably change the beasties behavior rather quickly unless it's a pit in which case the objective is to put it in a "lights out" status. I would also consider calling 911 immediately after to get both medical and police involvement. Might help with the owner!

Just some thoughts. Good thread.

Offline bdhutier

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Re: Protecting yourself from an aggresive dog attack
« Reply #47 on: November 21, 2012, 02:51:57 PM »
The quickest way for handlers dealing with military working dogs who won't release is to choke out the dog until it passes out, typically a minute or so.  If completely unarmed, I would try that.
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Offline flippydidit

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Re: Protecting yourself from an aggresive dog attack
« Reply #48 on: November 21, 2012, 11:12:41 PM »
Yep, the choke is very effective.  If the dog is threatening your life, I would also recommend snatching the windpipe.  What works on people usually works on dogs.  If using a choke, learn the difference between a blood choke and an air choke.  Blood is MUCH faster to get the assailant to pass out.
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Offline RitaRose1945

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Re: Protecting yourself from an aggresive dog attack
« Reply #49 on: November 22, 2012, 12:50:35 PM »
I'm kind of in the same situation, working for a utility company and, on a daily basis, having to walk unannounced into backyards in some of the very worst neighborhoods.  In the past 5 years, I've gotten pretty good at dealing with the dogs who quite often see me as a threat to their pack and their territory.

The very best thing you can do is avoid the "hand to tooth" combat in the first place.  Make a lot of noise and stomp your feet when you're entering an area that might contain a dog.  Look for tracks in the dirt/grass and scat on the ground.  Also look for toys, dog houses and doggie doors.  The bigger the door/dog house/scat, the bigger the dog.  Don't assume the chihuahua is the only dog when it comes running out of the house - many homes have both a lap dog and a "don't mess with me" dog, and he may not have heard you yet.

I'm not allowed to carry any kind of weapon (pepper spray, mace, stun gun, etc) and some of those tend to do more harm to the bearer anyway.  I know it sounds incredibly stupid, but we carry a full-sized umbrella with us at all times (believe it or not, an OSHA requirement) and can be disciplined if we don't have it on us when they do surprise field audits.  Like I say, it sounds stupid, but it's surprisingly effective.

The things I have found most effective are:
1) Use that stupid umbrella/cane/stick/golf club!  Don't swing at them if it's just one, let them bite it.  Biting the stick means they're not biting you, and you can actually maneuver the dog closer to your escape route.

2) In close quarters, aim for stomping on their paws.  Dogs are very protective of their feet, and many times will spend all of their efforts trying to get them away from you.

3) Don't assume a dog will stop given an extreme amount of pain.  Many are actually driven by it, and they tend to be the same breeds that get a bad reputation for being aggressive (not MY feeling, just how the average guy seems to feel).  In those cases, the best way to make them release you is to somehow cut off their air supply, be that shoving your arm further down their throat or choking them (garden hoses work great for that if you have a 2nd person nearby).  They'll gasp for air and let go.

4) Being aggressive yourself and taking the alpha position sometimes works for dogs that really aren't all that much of a badass but are just protecting their turf/family.  Just make yourself big and yell a lot.  If there's no way you can make it out of the area and it's not a nutjob dog, even taking a few steps toward it while yelling can make them back off.

5) Never EVER turn your back on an aggressive dog.  Showing them your back is a submissive position and you don't want that.  Sideways is a neutral, which is fine, and standing face-to-face is dominant (good for the average dog, a challenge to a very aggressive one, so choose wisely).

Again, the very best way to avoid getting bit is to plan ahead.  Let dogs discover you before you're on their territory, and have something (anything - stick, trashcan lid, bicycle, etc) to put between you and the dog.

Offline cbowseriii

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Re: Protecting yourself from an aggresive dog attack
« Reply #50 on: November 22, 2012, 04:11:43 PM »
Some pretty good suggestions, the only one I can think to add is if your company won't let you carry pepper spray get one of those hand held air horns like boaters use and use that. The sound they emitt is very loud and would scare most dogs.

If it came down to me or a dog, I am sorry the dog would loose. I don't care about the owner.

And like everyone else I am a dog lover. I have two German Shepherds. If any of them acted like this and put somebody in danger I would be upset my dogs got hurt but a humans safety is more important.
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Offline chrisdfw

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Re: Protecting yourself from an aggresive dog attack
« Reply #51 on: November 22, 2012, 04:42:39 PM »
I can handle one dog, I can attest that forcing a hand or arm further down the throat works. Whichever hand they have, I grab the knife in my other pocket and cut the throat. And the idea that one arm can be trapped in a two or four legged attack is why I have a knife that opens quickly on both my left and right side.

The real danger is when there are more than one... you better hope you can draw your more serious weapon before they get you to the ground. Because packs of dogs are a different and very dangerous matter. One dog and I have the size, strength, and weight advantage short of a 160 pound plus dog. Two, three, four and i might not. Contact weapons aren't a great choice when you lose the size, strength advantage.

Offline flyfisher66048

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Re: Protecting yourself from an aggresive dog attack
« Reply #52 on: November 22, 2012, 06:32:06 PM »
Sir, you are correct about dog packs.  I was attacked by a pack while fishing in NM.  Good thing I carried a 22 pistol in case I saw a rabbit for the pot.  I moved into the river as deep as I could and drew my 22.  When they did not back down, I shot the biggest meanest looking one between the eyes.  After the big dog went down the pack backed off, but they followed me all the way back to the truck. 

Once we were attacked while coming in our front door.  I never even saw the dog, bit was alerted my my wife yelling "look out! Dog!".   I turned and front kick the dog under the chin and drew my knife.  The owner kinda freaked out until I got on to him about not controlling his dog. 

I would sue the crap out of the owner of any dog that bit me, even if I killed the animal in the process.  It is their responsibility to control their dog, so I don't get bit.

Offline blademan

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Re: Protecting yourself from an aggresive dog attack
« Reply #53 on: November 22, 2012, 06:56:30 PM »
Seems like there is some resistance to the less lethal methods here. That's fine people are free to disagree of voice the opinion that one doesn't think something work. But realize that you think it wouldn't work is because you don't know because you haven't tried it. Take the stun gun for instance. People have poopooed the idea. I have used it and have suggested others use it and they have all told me it has worked every time they have had to use it and all it took was zapping it in the air, and the dog exited stage left with extreme prejudice. I my self have had this experience on several occasions.

A stick is very good and legally inconspicous. Simply raising it in a threatening manner and being loud is many times a good enough method. It seems that people want to go stampeeding toward engaging the threat which can and does result in injury. IT IS CALLED FOR SOMETIMES. It isn't the only answer and is sometimes the WRONG way to do it from a reasonable force and legal standpoint.
  If this is the way you choose, to do it, cool. Free country at the moment, and you should always to what your training and experience tell you.
   As the guy above mentioned that multiple doge require different tactics, Thank you for good information. On the head, sir. The pack psychology is slightly different and requires different tactics. I have never been in that situation. I don't have any research on that either but my thoughts on it are, know if the area you are in is known for pack attacks, (pretty rare but it happens) if it is or you suspect it, carry a gun and don't go alone. And cary a stick. And a knife. And bear spray. And a brigade of pissed off marines. Just kidding about the marines.
   And to be fair I "dogged" the watergun full of ammonia idea and I haven't tried it. I think that if you gave a dog a face full of ammonia, its going to be game set and match in all but the most agressively trained attack dogs or the perhaps the rare case of a rabid dog here in america. I just don't think that a watergun is the delivery method of choice. Waterguns always leak (or almost always) and sometimes take as much as ten trigger pulls to start firing (watering?). Ammonia is a caustic and toxic chemical and I don't want it leaking anywhere around me and I don't want to smell it all the time. Its sketchy from a legal standpoint and with the multiple colors real guns come in now days, it could get you shot by some over reactive cop, owner, or citizen. Or PETA freak.
    The ammo is effective but there are options that while maybe not as effective as ammonia, are effective enough, don't usually have the safety and legal issues, and come with a tried and true deployment method.
   RitaRose, great idea on the umbrella and ALL of your other advice. It had the sound of someone who deals with dogs often. They sell a full size self defense umbrella on the internet that can bear all of my 300 lbs standing in the middle of it while either end is on a chair. It bends, but doesn't break. When you need a new umbrella, consider that one, it would still be intact after having to use it as a club. I think that opening and closing the umbrella rapidly in the dogs direction while being loud and moving toward it would probably scare solid waste products out of it.

   Maybe I am ranting and beating a dead equine, but I just think there is more focus on the terminal solutions that I admit ARE called for sometimes and you should be willing ready and able to bring to bear should you need to. Thinking of that if you could somehow get your company let you take a pet bear on a leash with you on you routes, I bet you won't even see a dog that day. Just a joke. Deadly force and hand to paw combat are usually not necessary to avoid or end a dog attack. Given how good an animal dogs are and the cause for most, not all attacks, and the severity of most, not all dog attacks I personally think its worth even a decent bite mark to avoid killing or seriously injuring someone's dog who was reacting in an unfortunate way to poorly planned situation. This is not always the case, and the person being attacked has to make that decision.
   Occeltic, I hope this is useful and that you get a more pratical  stun gun and stay safe. Happy thanksgiving.
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Fear is the mind killer.

Two rules for a happy life:
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Offline hedgewitch

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Re: Protecting yourself from an aggresive dog attack
« Reply #54 on: November 22, 2012, 11:07:02 PM »
an easy dog deterrent is aresol hairspray, i keep a can in my truck for multiple reason (hair included:) and have found that if you spray the dog in the face they back off immediately, it would probably not work for multiple dogs but might give you the time to  pull your gun. i am an animal lover and wanted a non lethal way to back off a dog and so far this has worked. just  a suggestion

Offline flippydidit

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Re: Protecting yourself from an aggresive dog attack
« Reply #55 on: November 22, 2012, 11:12:27 PM »
If there was a quick way to employ it, I'd say that a zip strip/zip tie around the dog's neck would be handy.  Maybe at the end of a walking stick?  Someone could make some $$ off that concept....
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Offline blademan

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Re: Protecting yourself from an aggresive dog attack
« Reply #56 on: November 23, 2012, 12:30:44 AM »
Yeah, that's something that would work flippy. I have tried to construct and use a pole similar to what a dog catcher uses which is the concept you are talking about (though a zip tie could kill a dog) to catch nuisance cats. The concept is sound, it works and is used. I was successful in constructing it and not so much in using. Cats are fast and agile and it pretty much requires their cooperation in using it on them. I was pretty upset about them not cooperating and all, kind of a bummer. I was able to catch one and unfortunately I hadn't really figured out what I was going to do with it when I had. So it was catch and release.  I know dogs are different and that's the animal that tool  was pretty much made to deal with, but unless you have practiced with it, and have it in hand, intimidation or physical attack may work better. There has been a lot of good ideas on here. The hair spray is cool. The OP could even carry a standard spray bottle of water with him. Its used as a training aid to get dogs to break off bad behavior and adopt a submissive posture. Its by far the least violent and most legally unquestionable idea we have discussed so far. Use a clear bottle and if ever questioned about it, say you use it as a mister to keep cool in the heat. During the winter just change the top to a nozzle and say its a water bottle for drinking. The nozzle will work just as well as the spray head.
 I don't think anyone would even question it at all. Might not stop all attacks, but probably most.
   I have even used a ignore the dog and wait til it looses interest and moves on approach.
   A friend of mine is watching another friend dog while he is over in taiwan being a hippy and its a bull mastiff. Its the kind of bull mastiff that hates me. I'm pretty sure I kinda wants to see what I taste like. So if max is in the house when I come over, my buddy always tells me, just act like he's not there and completely ignore him, even if he tries to engage or agress you, ignore him and he will deal with it. Always works if he get an attitude about me being there until he can be put outside. At over 150 lbs, that's one dog I wouldn't want to mess with.  I had to do the same thing with an akita the same guy owned about 10 years ago. Not always the approprite way to deal with it, but it will work sometimes. Had another buddy with a rot the size of doe and weighed in @ 160 and that's how I acted until she got used to me being around and decided she didn't want to chew on me. She was a big puppy when she got to know you.
  A roll of duct tape could be used to muzzle a dog if you had to wrestle it down but trying to pull it off while restraining the dog could be tricky. Using the dogs collar as a muzzle could work too, but probably isn't necessary once you have dominated the dog. This might be a good skill to develope for the 13in13. Not just how to deal with an attack but general dog interaction skills and the use of a dog as a survival aid. I'm sure there are some dog experts in the tsp community and there are certainly some experts in general to draw from for information and techniques.
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Fear is the mind killer.

Two rules for a happy life:
1. Never sling shit at an armed man.
2. Never stand next to someone who is slinging shit at an armed man.

Offline flippydidit

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Re: Protecting yourself from an aggresive dog attack
« Reply #57 on: November 23, 2012, 06:24:06 AM »
You could also keep a couple hotdogs in your pocket.  Sounds a little "out there", but it might turn an aggressive dog into "your new best friend".  I'd also keep a few dog treats as well for when the hotdogs run out (the treat idea came from two friends of mine, one is a mail carrier, and one works at a tollbooth).  If you didn't care about the legality, you might slip a sedative into the hotdog.  I wouldn't do it, but maybe if there was a WROL situation that necessitated it.....
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Offline RitaRose1945

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Re: Protecting yourself from an aggresive dog attack
« Reply #58 on: November 23, 2012, 07:35:36 AM »
If a dog is on the fence about you and can't decide whether you're a new playmate or lunch, then hot dogs will work.  You're his new best friend.  If they're already aggressive, it just reinforces the aggressive behavior and it continues or escalates.


Offline RitaRose1945

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Re: Protecting yourself from an aggresive dog attack
« Reply #59 on: November 23, 2012, 07:42:08 AM »
Thanks, blademan.  I went from an air conditioned office job to this one more than 5 years ago, and when they said I'd be walking into people's backyards and confronting their dogs with nothing but an umbrella, I thought they were trying to tease me since I was significantly older than my coworkers (40s vs 20s).  Nope, that's really the job.

Unfortunately, we're required to use the company's orange or green umbrellas.  Before my time, they had black umbrellas, and I guess we got lots of calls to the police because people thought we were walking around carrying shotguns.  Yes, people really are that stupid.  So now we have to carry the ones the company gives us.