Author Topic: Manmade Super-flu!  (Read 23160 times)

Offline surfivor

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Re: Manmade Super-flu!
« Reply #30 on: January 21, 2012, 06:13:33 AM »
 hey stop criticizing the govt and the great scientists, they love you and care about you ! They want to help you ! They would give up taking the shots themselves just so you can have more shots for yourself !

 If it wasn't for science how would we be able to get cows to produce milk and grow fast or have corn that kills of bugs all by itself ? We can now clone cows so that they won't burn off calories trying to mate with each other, that means more calories for you and less hungry people !

 Scientists have figured out that the climate is changing and they want to help ! Further evidence that the govt loves you !

  Even if the stuff may kill you, you should take heart in knowing that your death has contributed to greater scientific knowledge and other people may learn from your mistakes ..

 They may have injected some people with viruses in Guatamala without their consent, but they had to do it in order to study these things, otherwise we might all die if things get out of hand and the microbes take over ! Microbes are every where you know, it's a dangerous and scary world out there. I live in fear ever day !

 Apparently Nazi scientists did experiments on people and this contributed to greater knowledge as well. They boiled people in water and from those experiments we now know that women have a greater endurance than men in those situations, yes we are indebted to their greatness in the furtherment of knowledge. I don't understand why people just don't seem to get it !

 People like the great Henry Kissinger, a principled man and politician, well he knows about this stuff ..


(sarcasm intended)

 - so technology is like a double edged sword, but as Richard Stallman said, he doesn't want to give up freedoms in order to get innovations, not all innovations are beneficial. But everything seems always to be done in order to keep you "safe" whether it is endless wars, squeezing your genitals at the airport, making you go through high powered x-rays (they claim these are safe - right), being able to lock you up without charging you with anything and no due process. So yea, we should trust them huh ?


« Last Edit: January 21, 2012, 07:50:24 AM by surfivor »

Offline Shaunypoo

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Re: Manmade Super-flu!
« Reply #31 on: January 21, 2012, 11:38:59 AM »
Don't condemn the many for the faults of a few.  Some scientists have done terrible things: some because they wanted to, some because they were forced to, and some were just a small cog in a big machine that ended up contributing to bad things.

I defend scientists because I am a scientist, and to judge all scientists as bad because of the tiny minority is simply ignorance.  No disrespect intended, but making gross generalizations on such a small  sample set is offensive to me.  I know what I do in my job is important to someone, and I take pride in it.  Maybe it doesn't contribute to society in a way that you want it to, but we don't all live in utopia. 

I am not telling you to trust anyone, just realize that the vast majority of people you are unfairly indicting are good people who want to do good things.

IF the next big bug to hit mankind is man-made, that will truly suck.  But the Black Plague wasn't man-made and neither was the pandemic of 1918.

Online FreeLancer

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Re: Manmade Super-flu!
« Reply #32 on: January 21, 2012, 01:04:36 PM »
Microbes are every where you know, it's a dangerous and scary world out there. I live in fear ever day !

Sarcastic or not, you've got a lot of scary ideas running amok in your head surfivor.  How do you manage the courage to get out of bed every day and face a wicked world that is conspiring against us all?  You must have some faith in your fellow man, don't you?  If not, what's the point in surfiving?

Offline surfivor

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Re: Manmade Super-flu!
« Reply #33 on: January 21, 2012, 06:42:24 PM »
 I'm not condemning all scientists, otherwise I wouldn't have said technology is a double edge sword. I do sometimes feel very frustrated with some of these scientists in many areas and govt however and the gullibility of the public.

 Do we know for sure the 1918 pandemic wasn't man made ? Some people claim it was, a woman who lived during that time and went through it thought it was. It's like in Africa, anyone who is sick practically can be diagnosed with AIDS. There is no real criteria for AIDS diagnoses in Africa. A person suffering from malnutrition can be diagnosed with AIDS. So the diagnoses of diseases can not always easily be trusted and I have heard of similar things. The 1918 pandemic started from military bases, though I know the story is it came from overseas, though maybe it could have come from military vaccinations. I don't feel like I know for sure, maybe it was a natural pandemic. I have not been able to find enough information.


 The black plague was related to sanitation. The anti vaccine movement of old has many claims (some by scientists) that the elimination of many diseases had alot to do with improved hygiene. Given that, it is not clear to me to what extent massive large scales deaths from solely a virus have really occurred that are not due in a large part to these other factors.

Quote
How do you manage the courage to get out of bed every day and face a wicked world that is conspiring against us all?  You must have some faith in your fellow man, don't you?  If not, what's the point in surfiving?

 I learned to deal with anger by cultivating compassion for other beings, but also to have compassion for myself because sometimes my feelings of frustration seem to be justified to some extent.

 Here's a mental experiment:

 If people are wicked beings such that it is their very nature to harm me, being angry at them for harming me would be like being angry at fire for burning. It is the nature of fire to burn, so why should I be angry at fire for burning ? If on the other hand, people cause me harm due to circumstantial conditions, being angry at them for harming me would be like being angry at the sky for being overcast. Sometimes the sky is overcast, sometimes not.


« Last Edit: January 21, 2012, 06:53:40 PM by surfivor »

Offline sboyle1

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Decision time for researchers of deadly bird flu
« Reply #34 on: February 14, 2012, 09:02:43 AM »
http://www.baltimoresun.com/health/sns-rt-us-birdflu-who-meetingtre81d0w8-20120214,0,6783556.story

Basically we have some research scientists meeting together at the WHO to determine how much research they can do in creating mutant strains of the H5N1 bird flu that easily transmit between animals and humans.

Personally I'm not a research scientist, I don't pretend to be, I don't know all the merits and benefits of it and again I frankly don't care, but I am deeply disturbed that it even needs to be questioned that its reckless and more than a little arrogant to be working in a lab environment and making highly communicable mutant strains of bird flu for "research" purposes. All it takes is for one person to get exposed accidentally, become infected without knowing it, and walk the strain out of the lab. If that happens your a human Johnny Appleseed spreading a disease that will kill millions globally within a few years. No one needs to know how or should be allowed to publish how to turn H5N1 into a weapon.

We have an awful problem in this modern era we live in as science evolves rapidly. Scientists these days IMO seem to be more concerned with the question of "can we" instead of "should we" and the best bit of advice I can give anyone is that in life there are some doors that aren't meant to be opened because we aren't ready or prepared or should see whats on the other side.




Offline Shaunypoo

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Re: Decision time for researchers of deadly bird flu
« Reply #35 on: February 14, 2012, 10:04:07 AM »
This subject has been punched in the face more times than I can count.  As a chemist, I see research as a means to an ends.  I believe that at some point a strain of something is going to get us and it is the main reason I prep.  They are studying how it can happen as a means to try to stop it if it does happen.  The steps they take to prevent it from coming from the lab itself are extensive and about as close to failsafe as they can possibly be.  Is there a possibility it could get out?  Sure, but what odds will make you satisfied?  Obviously the odds that will make me happy are alot higher than the odds that will make you happy. 

I think that the research that they are doing is the kind of thing that is more likely to head off a global pandemic than cause one.  Every research study I have been involved in has asked if it should be done, and the answer is always "Yes".  Whether it is for pure knowledge, to find a cure, or to be a stepping stone for another research project, there is always justification for why it should be done.  You or I may not agree with it, but someone is agreeing with it enough to justify paying for it.

This also steps onto the issue of restricting the rights of people to do what they want to do to a certain degree.   I won't speak for the people on this forum, but I believe that there are too many limits to our rights already, and more limitations to come.  Good people want to do the right thing and don't really need too many laws to tell them how to behave.  It is the minority that don't know or want to behave in a humane nature that the laws are there for, and most of the time they flaunt the laws anyway.  Whether or not we restrict how this information is spread or if it is even legal to investigate it in the future, if someone wants to figure it out, they will be able to.  You can take the adage "if you criminalize guns, only the criminals will have guns" and extend it to anything you want to limit.  But if we let people do the research and figure out how the bird flu can be transmitted, they can most likely figure out how to fight it if someone else decides they want to unleash it on the world.  Otherwise you are limiting our armory for fighting this kind of infectious disease.

Offline sboyle1

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Re: Decision time for researchers of deadly bird flu
« Reply #36 on: February 14, 2012, 10:29:52 AM »
Oh I agree with most of what your saying Shauny I don't want anyone to think for a second I am anti-science I for one live better because of it, I just know deep down the line, that places like the CDC and USAMRIID where this can be studied safely with the utmost precautions won't be the only places this research gets done and it scares me that its published for the world to see how to do it. I agree there are many benefits to it some of them we know, some of them we don't I just worry these avenues of research take us deeper down the rabbit hole than we should be going. Working in disaster relief I see how woefully unprepared we are to deal with a global pandemic that will kill 20 million plus and that's just the disease not the related factors like resource availability and civil unrest that will bloat those numbers even more. I'm worried we may let the genie out of the bottle and we won't be able to put it back in once its out.

Offline Shaunypoo

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Re: Decision time for researchers of deadly bird flu
« Reply #37 on: February 14, 2012, 01:17:20 PM »
I don't think it is a matter of IF the genie is let out of the bottle, but when.  As long as the people who are letting it out at least have an idea of how to put it back in, that is better than putting our head in the sand and saying "no, we shouldn't do that", then finding out someone let the genie out on purpose with no intent on putting back in.

There are those saying that our reliance on technology will be our downfall, but human civilization is cyclical and the largest societies always have some kind of downfall.  The bigger the ups, the bigger the downs.

As someone who works in a laboratory on a daily basis, safety is of the utmost importance.  Just because it isn't at the well known facilities doesn't mean there aren't other places just as safe if not safer.

Offline RPZ

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Re: Decision time for researchers of deadly bird flu
« Reply #38 on: February 15, 2012, 06:11:57 AM »
If we did not have so many elitists wishing about 6 billion of us would just die I wouldn't have a problem with this. Unfortunately we do have too many of them staring down at us.

Offline Morning Sunshine

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Re: Decision time for researchers of deadly bird flu
« Reply #39 on: February 15, 2012, 06:56:31 AM »
If we did not have so many elitists wishing about 6 billion of us would just die I wouldn't have a problem with this. Unfortunately we do have too many of them staring down at us.

+1 for truth!

Offline georgec

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Despite Safety Worries, Work on Deadly Flu to Be Released
« Reply #40 on: February 18, 2012, 11:21:43 AM »
So the research is going to released. Oh Great, just great. They even talk about how the natural form of the virus infects millions of birds. Can't think of a better way to spread a bio weapon, can you?

Link here http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/18/health/details-of-bird-flu-research-will-be-released.html?_r=2&hp

Offline JerseyVince

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Re: Despite Safety Worries, Work on Deadly Flu to Be Released
« Reply #41 on: February 18, 2012, 12:05:13 PM »
I can almost guarantee anyone who accesses that info will be tracked, they definitely want to see where this info travels to

Offline Shaunypoo

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Re: Manmade Super-flu!
« Reply #42 on: February 22, 2012, 08:22:02 AM »
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/2012/02/21/147190101/how-using-antibiotics-in-animal-feed-creates-superbugs

This is the kind of thing this type of research will try to help us prevent.  It is another problem of our own making, but we have to solve those problems, too.

Offline Loki

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Re: Manmade Super-flu!
« Reply #43 on: February 23, 2012, 07:28:42 PM »
It's all well and good to claim that it would have been irresponsible to engineer that strain, but in all likelihood it wasn't intentional to engineer a strain designed to be really, really deadly. More than likely this was research to assess what sort of mutations could occur naturally to H5N1 between flu seasons in the biosphere. The research grants were supplied by the National Institutes of Health. This wasn't some intentional attempt at making some weaponized supervirus, it was an assessment by an organisation whose job is to follow these risks.

Secondly, science works by peer review. The results of experiments are normally published and repeated by other reputable groups to confirm the findings of the first groups who released the results, in order to verify they didn't mess up the method and get a false result. It is only fair that the results either be released for peer review so policy makers have a decent understanding of the risks H5N1 mutations pose, or keep it locked away in case of the unlikely event some well connected terrorism groups manage to replicate and weaponize it. Not everything is a big conspiracy or irresponsible policy.

Offline surfivor

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Re: Manmade Super-flu!
« Reply #44 on: February 23, 2012, 09:00:27 PM »
 We have no idea what goes on with bio weapons research. The number of bio weapons labs has hugely expanded and there is little oversight of what is going on at these places. "Accidents" and various releases seem to happen and the media does not report when it does, although a media outlet somewhere around the world may report on it. That was the case when the Toronto Sun reported live virus in vaccines sent to Czech Republic a few years ago. If you trust the system to monitor itself and be safe, my impression is that is wishful thinking. I would go out and actually do some research on these things ..

 If there ever is an accidental release leading to people dying, I doubt anyone is going to tell you what happened in that case either, it will be blamed on some disease occurring naturally. Why would they tell you ?

 what is claimed to be science is not always science, that seems obvious. I guess global warming is a good example that many on TSP would agree on. We are always told that most scientists believe that global warming is happening. These are bonafide scientists with degrees and the like, PHDs etc and there are a huge number of them it seems. Science often has a lot of politics that goes with it and is often controlled mostly by corporations/govt with an agenda. Probably alot of scientists are brainwashed or are only aware of some small part of the big picture ..

  All the people who die from prescription drugs may be another one. Recently a guy from Harvard has shown that antidepressants don't really work, but he is bucking a huge money machine on that one ..




« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 09:32:26 PM by surfivor »

Offline Loki

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Re: Manmade Super-flu!
« Reply #45 on: February 23, 2012, 09:34:00 PM »
By no means do you have to trust the system to be competent and run smoothly. But you can have faith that it isn't out to bite you in the ass every five minutes, either. This particular case is just business as usual for science. If you think these two labs that conducted this research are involved in bioweapons research, by all means, provide the evidence suggesting it.

Offline surfivor

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Re: Manmade Super-flu!
« Reply #46 on: February 23, 2012, 10:05:08 PM »
 There is not alot of reason to trust the system .. for example the world health organization says basically GMO foods will not harm you and there is nothing to worry about. We are told they are genetically modifying salmon in such a way that apparently will destroy that species entirely it sounds like and create some weird sci fi nightmare.

search for something like "bioweapons labs expansion" and you can see that playing with all these fun viruses is constantly expanding as I already mentioned.

 Where did the anthrax come from after 9/11 ? It came from US weapons labs .. Did the FBI figure out who sent it ? No they didn't, they falsely accused 2 people and never solved any of it or at least the public was not told what the truth was .. funny how everything is monitored, all cell calls are recorded but MF Global can electronically lose 1.6 billion dollars and the govt has no idea where it went, and they will apparently never figure out who sent the anthrax either .. But if the anthrax wasn't safe at fort Detrick along with the other massive stockpiles of every deadly virus known to man, why would some super flu virus be safe with the same people ?

 I can find connections with the original article and bio weapons, but I doubt that would convince you. The bigger picture however is the entire bio weapons industry and probably the medical establishment as well.

At any rate:

Flu Researcher Ron Fouchier:

http://news.sciencemag.org/scienceinsider/2012/01/flu-researcher-ron-fouchier-its.html

R.F.: We were advised by various organizations, and of course we've followed the press coverage and the political debates. We had the impression, based partly on advice from third parties, that it would be sensible to announce a moratorium.

Q: Which third parties?

R.F.: The organizations that fund our research, but also governments that we are talking to. So much is happening at the moment that it makes sense to take a break, to give the infectious diseases field time to think this over and talk about how to handle this kind of research in the future. This research offers opportunities and challenges, and governments and organizations need time to react.

-----------------------------------

 Who funds Ron Fouchier ? - from the same article above:

Q: Who took the initiative for this announcement?

R.F.: The initiative came from Adolfo Sastre-GarcĂ­a [an influenza researcher at Mount Sinai Medical Center in New York City who has a grant from the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID) that funded Fouchier's study]

------------------
So the NIAID is involved in funding the guy (National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases)

 What does their website say:

http://www.niaid.nih.gov/topics/biodefenserelated/Pages/default.aspx

The NIAID Biodefense and Emerging Infectious Diseases website includes biodefense-related information for biomedical researchers, the public, and the media.

--------------------------------

 Of course, 90% of money spent always comes down to military/defense/security of some sort .. That is why there is so much research going on probably ..

 They will of course always make it sound like it is defense, they are looking for cures and ways to counteract attacks according to them. I don't think it's really any different to changing the name of "The war department" to "the defense department" as was done in the past. It's all marketing
« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 10:18:23 PM by surfivor »

Offline Loki

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Re: Manmade Super-flu!
« Reply #47 on: February 23, 2012, 10:23:09 PM »
You might be a little bit confused about what biodefense normally constitues. I was under the impression biodefense was developing the techniques and mechanisms to defend against biological threats - which would again explain why they were conducting that research; to combat H5N1 when if/when it mutates again. Just because a government supplies funding for research doesn't mean it's militarized. Most non-profit research institutions rely on government funding for their research.

Besides, if I were running a super-secret bioweapons program to kill off 1/2 of the world's population for no discernible reason, I probably wouldn't contract international labs under the watch of their respective governments to produce it, then provide international academia with all related documentation that could quite literally lead to a pre-emptive cure.

Offline surfivor

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Re: Manmade Super-flu!
« Reply #48 on: February 23, 2012, 10:31:30 PM »
 The govt is going to protect the public against bio weapons attack ? I'm not sure on that, who is going to attack us ? How many people could they kill ? As I said, the anthrax virus from 9/11 came from out own labs.
The govt has large stockpiles of food and underground bunkers. If there was a nuclear war, a big radiation leak, bio attack or whatever, they could all go underground. There is no such provisions for the rest of the public.

The viruses that the develop and "research" for "bio defense" (if they call it that) can all be used for bio weapons. That's why alot of people don't want to live near these facilities which apparently have poor protections of releases or accidents related to earthquakes and so on.

===================================

 These are interesting, on how bio weapons research has grown massively over non bio weapons research, though I think alot of the drugs and treatments they use are dubious anyway ..

expand the pdf by using the "+" key to zoom in:
http://www.utwatch.org/archives/backyardbioweapons.pdf

http://www.indytruth.org/archive/2010/0501-gr-weapons.html
« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 10:39:04 PM by surfivor »

Offline Shaunypoo

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Re: Manmade Super-flu!
« Reply #49 on: March 01, 2012, 10:24:00 AM »
http://www.newsday.com/news/nation/bird-flu-pig-flu-now-bat-flu-human-risk-unclear-1.3561574

Well, if it isn't man-made, it is going to come from somewhere.  Here's another source to ruminate about.

Offline surfivor

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Re: Manmade Super-flu!
« Reply #50 on: March 02, 2012, 07:47:19 AM »
man made flu -- man made fear ?

Offline Laz

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Did Anyone Read the Linked Article - Doomsday' flu virus unveiled
« Reply #51 on: May 03, 2012, 10:06:56 AM »
http://www.timescolonist.com/health/Doomsday+virus+unveiled+with+recipe/6558349/story.html

I am all for scientific discovery and exploration, but I find it pretty disturbing that they would published exactly how to do it in their brief. Is this basically advertising to a terrorist cell, on how to kill a lot of people by starting a pandemic?

Just wondering what everyone's thought were on the subject of genetically altered microbes, and moreover on this strain that was created and unveiled Wednesday - "complete with instructions on how to engineer the hybrid flu virus in the lab."

Offline surfivor

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Re: Manmade Super-flu!
« Reply #52 on: May 08, 2012, 09:25:08 PM »

 Jack points out that many tin foil types end up being angry, but the other side is that they may be done with being shocked or surprised by what goes on ..

Offline surfivor

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Re: Manmade Super-flu!
« Reply #53 on: May 08, 2012, 10:00:21 PM »

 Alex Jones might say that there may be an antidote or means of protection for certain privileged types. I don't know, but certainly I believe that we are not really told the truth about a lot of what really goes on.

 I am also not sure I have been thoroughly convinced that flu pandemic is really as potentially as bad as they claim. This is similar to the idea that AIDS is that bad because when you look into it, AIDS in Africa seems to be a propped up man made invention of propaganda. Is it really me who imagines this or just people who refuse to look objectively at the evidence ? Apparently just about anyone who is sick, malnourished or the like can be classified as an AIDS victim. No wonder AIDS is classified as being an epidemic, and not to mention the work of Ed Hooper who has exposed the likes of Hilary Koprowski and the Royal Society of London and what seems to be the real story of AIDS (the book "the river")

  I have yet to find good sources on the Swine Flu of 1918 that doesn't come from military sources of military personnel at military hospitals or any other answers to natural news and others who point out all the vaccines that where given to WWI soldiers could have easily led to this sort of thing (and there where reports that that was the case).

 It would be easy enough for them to claim there is a pandemic and implement quarantines, forced inoculations and the like and manufacture the whole darn thing.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 10:14:29 PM by surfivor »

Offline Loki

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Re: Manmade Super-flu!
« Reply #54 on: May 09, 2012, 01:14:46 AM »
Is it really me who imagines this or just people who refuse to look objectively at the evidence ? Apparently just about anyone who is sick, malnourished or the like can be classified as an AIDS victim.

An infection of the HIV virus is also needed to be classified an AIDS victim. Which it is. In every case. Otherwise they can't have AIDS. Strange, that.

Offline Shaunypoo

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Re: Manmade Super-flu!
« Reply #55 on: May 09, 2012, 07:49:56 AM »
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5222069


There is no way to know the origin of any specific strain of flu.  They mutate too fast.  I think the reason that you will find military implications is simply because of the military movements of the time are simply vectors for the disease, not the cause.  There was a war going on and sanitation and hygeine are not priorities.  Military troop movements are an easy way for something like this to spread.  I remember a dozen people in my dorm once getting sick with the same stomach virus, and we didn't even live cramped like soldiers do.  And there is not a whole lot a quarantine can do in that situation.



Just wondering what everyone's thought were on the subject of genetically altered microbes, and moreover on this strain that was created and unveiled Wednesday - "complete with instructions on how to engineer the hybrid flu virus in the lab."

I think this whole thread does a very good job of exposing both sides of the argument and the various shades of grey.

As for genetically altered microbes, this has been done on purpose since the days of Louis Pasteur.  If it were not for genetically altered microbes the common flu and other basically extinct diseases would be running rampant today.  And I am all for using natural cures whenever possible, but science has allowed us to take the active ingredient, understand how it works, purify it, multiply it, and allow a much larger portion of the population to have access to it.  I don't believe we know the long term effects of everything we produce, and do believe that overuse of certain drugs will lead to an increase in MRSA and other more virulent strains.

As for the new strain of hybrid flu virus, there are a ton of researchers who will take this information and use it to help cure and prevent this from happening.  If a few nutjobs succeed at weaponizing it and using it, of course that would be bad, but that doesn't mean that the information shouldn't be out there.  This way there are others who can do good work and now have the foundation that they didn't have before to be one step closer to eradicating the flu virus.  I would rather they share the step with the nutjobs than just let them move forward on their own.

We cannot start legislating what information people can and can't have.  If this were the case we should have stopped the car from being invented and refined, cause they kill a lot of people.  Instead we have to make sure they are safer and trust people to use them in a responsible manner, same as with this new information.

Offline surfivor

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Re: Manmade Super-flu!
« Reply #56 on: May 10, 2012, 05:38:55 AM »
An infection of the HIV virus is also needed to be classified an AIDS victim. Which it is. In every case. Otherwise they can't have AIDS. Strange, that.

 I forget the exact details but testing for AIDS in Africa seems highly unreliable from what I had read in the past as well as much what else is known about AIDS and HIV.

Loki and I had some email debates, but I trust the medical/drug system much less than he does though he seems to know a number of things. He also seemed to admit that there was something to the statement that many vaccines came out after alot of diseases declined greatly on their own.

Offline Loki

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Re: Manmade Super-flu!
« Reply #57 on: May 10, 2012, 10:31:14 PM »
Loki and I had some email debates, but I trust the medical/drug system much less than he does though he seems to know a number of things. He also seemed to admit that there was something to the statement that many vaccines came out after alot of diseases declined greatly on their own.

It's in bad taste to talk about private conversations in public. Vaccines are irrelevant to the thread. I know you probably said it in good spirit, but this is probably not the place to talk about Loki's opinions about vaccines - which I will go ahead and say that I do trust, completely.

Offline ICBM99

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Re: Manmade Super-flu!
« Reply #58 on: May 29, 2012, 09:38:15 AM »
Two words:

Captain Trips