Author Topic: BULLET PROOFING HOUSE, BOL  (Read 10363 times)

Offline joeinwv

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Re: BULLET PROOFING HOUSE, BOL
« Reply #30 on: January 08, 2012, 07:28:53 PM »
You guys are thinking the wrong way - underground house. If there is nothing above grade, there is nothing to shoot.

Offline Truik

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Re: BULLET PROOFING HOUSE, BOL
« Reply #31 on: January 08, 2012, 07:35:50 PM »
These videos will give you some idea of the power of the 5.56 mm round:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6gHCNMSbqQ

I was checking out the videos above and noticed a "related" video on the side for "timbercrete."

Worth some consideration?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNO88AcJ60o&feature=related

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Offline Cool Blue

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Re: BULLET PROOFING HOUSE, BOL
« Reply #32 on: January 08, 2012, 11:32:27 PM »
Blue,

^^^As long as they're thick enough. But then, that leads to at least two other problems: Ricochet and Spalling. If a gun is fired in or into a house, the last thing you want is a bullet bouncing around in a room and possibly hitting someone not in the direct line of fire. Spalling occurs when a bullet hits a wall and knocks a chunk of material off on the opposite side. That chunk has a lot of energy and can be deadly.

These videos will give you some idea of the power of the 5.56 mm round:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6gHCNMSbqQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLyuZIq11fs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hxn8TS9cb3o&feature=related

Think about that when you think about cover and concealment.

soupbone

Thanks for the replies guys.

See I'm strongly thinking of building with ICFs so my exterior walls will be concrete.  As you say, if something was fired inside, then it could bounce around. 

In my design, the bedrooms are all on one side of the home and are accessed only by one hall.  Any intruder could have the rest of the home but if he wants us he'll have to come around the corner down that one hallway.

 I'm thinking of using bricks in the bedroom walls facing the rest of the interior of the home.  The idea being I have a clear shot down the hall and they have to come around the corner with nothing going through the walls.

Plus I'm hoping the brick will add some thermal mass for heating and maybe make a bit of a "firewall" if there's ever a fire.
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Offline Thom

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Re: BULLET PROOFING HOUSE, BOL
« Reply #33 on: January 09, 2012, 12:56:03 AM »
Making an entire house bulletproof would be a truly monumental effort. Even then, someone could just wait for you to come outside to check the mail or go to work.

Lol, I could just see it now, bullets whizzing this way and that, "But, honey, I'm waiting on the LL Bean catalog, I'll be right back".
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Offline Docwatmo

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Re: BULLET PROOFING HOUSE, BOL
« Reply #34 on: January 09, 2012, 06:37:24 AM »
I would think a few pieces of furniture that could be used as cover would be the way to go.   Much less costly, and you can get behind it from any direction depending on where the shots are coming from.     Maybe a couple islands in the house, or some steel inside the back of the couch.   2 scenarios that seem most realistic to me.

1.  Drive by shooting of some sort, (Just hit the floor behind whatever cover you have available)
2.  home invasion, pieces of cover would do you more good than reinforced walls.

Just my 2 cents.

Doc


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Offline Cool Blue

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Re: BULLET PROOFING HOUSE, BOL
« Reply #35 on: January 09, 2012, 10:47:05 AM »
FYI building with Insulated Concrete Forms supposedly only costs about 5% more.
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Offline Shaunypoo

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Re: BULLET PROOFING HOUSE, BOL
« Reply #36 on: January 09, 2012, 11:01:25 AM »
I would think a few pieces of furniture that could be used as cover would be the way to go.   Much less costly, and you can get behind it from any direction depending on where the shots are coming from.     Maybe a couple islands in the house, or some steel inside the back of the couch.   2 scenarios that seem most realistic to me.

1.  Drive by shooting of some sort, (Just hit the floor behind whatever cover you have available)
2.  home invasion, pieces of cover would do you more good than reinforced walls.

Just my 2 cents.

Doc

I thought furniture was bullet resistant.  You mean all those movies of people hiding behind a couch or la-z-boy aren't true?

 :wtf:
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Offline Docwatmo

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Re: BULLET PROOFING HOUSE, BOL
« Reply #37 on: January 09, 2012, 11:37:12 AM »
LOL, Nope, that couch cushion aint stoppin nuttin.  :o   Add some steel plate behind the couch (Just the 18 inches closest to the floor would be enough, or something thicker in the middle of the island and on the endcaps of the island before you cover it with wood or veneer.    A few areas of "actual" cover rather than concealment would be far more doable.

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Offline Thom

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Re: BULLET PROOFING HOUSE, BOL
« Reply #38 on: January 09, 2012, 12:26:10 PM »
LOL, Nope, that couch cushion aint stoppin nuttin.  :o   Add some steel plate behind the couch (Just the 18 inches closest to the floor would be enough, or something thicker in the middle of the island and on the endcaps of the island before you cover it with wood or veneer.    A few areas of "actual" cover rather than concealment would be far more doable.

I just had an idea for a "niche" custom furniture company,
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Offline Docwatmo

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Re: BULLET PROOFING HOUSE, BOL
« Reply #39 on: January 09, 2012, 12:27:33 PM »
Damn, there I go making someone else rich again  ;) ;D ;D
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Offline JLMissouri

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Re: BULLET PROOFING HOUSE, BOL
« Reply #40 on: January 09, 2012, 12:51:17 PM »
 I agree that reinforcing an existing structure that is built of wood is not worth it, although if you are building from scratch you could build a much more secure house for just about the same amount of money and if you spent more you could have a very secure house and energy efficient as well. I put a lot of thought into this as well, not so much for bullet resistance as for security when I wasn't home. People spend money on locks when most doors are very easy to kick in, if the door is actually secure the window is not. I think wood is a poor choice of a building material as it will never be as secure or last as long. When I build my house I want it to need very little maintenance and be fire and break in resistant. It is not feasable for me to build a house that is completelly secure, but using the right design and materials could make a structure better. I decided the best way for me is reinforced concrete block with filled cores. Building this way is cheap and very strong. The lower windows out of ax and bullet resistant plastic which also insulates better than glass. The windows will all be smaller with steel framework so even if broken out you cannot climb through them. The door I decided I would have to build myself as well as the windows. I think shutters are a good idea as well, and done right could improve the look of a house. The roof is still undecided for me, either tile or steel. I like the look and longevity of tile, but the cost is high. Locks are not very dependable and I decided I would need to lock my door from the inside and exit the house a different way when leaving for a long time.
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Offline boboroshi

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Re: BULLET PROOFING HOUSE, BOL
« Reply #41 on: January 09, 2012, 05:59:25 PM »
My background: M. Architecture. Don't practice, but have a lot of friends who do and who have been building with ICFs (e.g. BJ Wholesale Clubs in VA)

ICFs are great, but remember, your wall section (e.g. if you cut through a wall and looked at it from the side) is not just going to be concrete. You'll have the insulation, but you'll need a vapor barrier on the inside. You'll probably also do Metal C stud wall construction (or you could do traditional 2x4 wood framing) and have drywall, etc.

Many contractors will not be comfortable with ICFs because they don't know how to properly use the material or install it.

One of the biggest concerns is actually water. Concrete is not water proof. If you put up this wall system, you do not give yourself the opportunity to installer waterproofing on the exterior face, especially where it may be needed below grade.

Also think about thermal mass with any kind of masonry or concrete exterior wall of any thickness. Is it capturing and retaining heat? How cold/hot is it going to be and are you going to be happy about living inside of that?


In regards to the original question, Any traditional four wall, rectilinear house is going to be a losing proposition from a defensive standpoint. You can't have effective fields of fire nor can you cover all angles. Best bet is rings of security. If you HAVE to engage, you want to engage on your terms away from your primary location. Hedges of hawthorne, streams/trenches, and other natural obstacles and funnels are going to be a better solution. Once someone is on top of you, you're probably out of luck.

From a traditional building approach, look at star forts. If you're blessed with a good site, build up a level and put your house on top of a  star fort.

Remember that all military tactics are many for trained, coordinated forces, generally larger than you will have on hand. They also plan in for "acceptable losses", which most of us have a count of "0" for.

Offline Oldhomestead

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Re: BULLET PROOFING HOUSE, BOL
« Reply #42 on: January 11, 2012, 03:25:40 PM »
Along with the fortification I am thinking about some sort of booby traps (ie) barbed wire tangle foot,small dead falls, maybe some brush they would have to climb over maybe an outer fence peremter, and an inner fence peremter but these would be installed after a SHTF and we have relocated to the BOL. The booby traps would slow down advanceing low lives.

Hedges of hawthorne, streams/trenches, and other natural obstacles and funnels are going to be a better solution.

I know I heard it on the podcast sometime, but instead of booby traps, how about natural barriers such as a line of closely planted berry/nut bushes/brambles with lots of thorny roses or prickly pear cactus sown in between near the ground where it tangles with the bushes. You could grow a living fence tight enough to keep in livestock much less channel intruders into a kill zone. It also would provide benefit as an additional food source.
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Offline Oldhomestead

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Offline Orionblade

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Re: BULLET PROOFING HOUSE, BOL
« Reply #44 on: March 20, 2012, 07:23:22 PM »
I can't believe nobody asked for my input yet.

I am, after all, Tony Stark.

I'll address a couple of points I skimmed, and see what you guys can throw at the revisions and see if they hold up.

First - 1/4" steel plate behind the drywall around and under doors/windows. Unobtrusive, and adds thermal mass, so might not be a bad idea anyway. (addresses "house worth living in" being bulletproof)

Second - I'm sure an ingenious soul could rig this up, as I'm about to try once I have some debt paid down - for moltov cocktails and the like, a metal roof would itself be rather impervious, but the fuel would tend to run down into the gutters, and set the wood substructure on fire. I have all the parts in a bucket to put a roof sprayer system together, that's actually intended to lower my cooling requirements in the summer - it'll run off my rain barrels. (yes i've thought of fuel cycling through the system... it's got a bottom pickup on the last barrel in series) This would tend to drive the fuel down the roof and into the gutters, assuming you could trigger it at will - which I'll be able to do. From there, a CO2 bottle commonly used for portable "air" nailers (or a couple of them) could easily be rigged to blow gas through a small diameter pipe, perforated every couple of inches, glued to the upper inside edge of the gutter - this would keep the holes free of leaf gunk, and would flood the gutter with carbon dioxide. I'd have the end of the tube directed down the downspout, so as to flood the downspout and first barrel with CO2 as well. You'd need an appropriate pressure regulator as well, but this should certainly extinguish a single cocktail thrown on a metal roof, especially if your fascia is clad in metal, and the gutters are mounted high on the fascia. The flood of water would also cool the metal, keeping the wood beneath it from charring and catching fire.

Third - A similar arrangement to above, but an additional pipe can be mounted through the side wall of the downspouts, routed up into the gutter and down a ways, and a chemical foam fire extinguisher could easily be stuffed into the end of the pipe and triggered, filling the gutters with the foam.

The only situation I don't see being handled is a cocktail onto a deck/porch or one thrown high against a wall, involving the soffit below the gutters. This would likely require its own dedicated sprayers, since the soffit vents provide direct access to attic spaces and roof joists/trusses.


Fourth - keep 'em away from the house to begin with. I like the living fence concept, but nothing says you love 'em like automated point-defense turrets firing even something as non-lethal as paintballs. Those air/CO2 powered devices can launch hundreds of rounds per minute, and there are even kits online for building your own automated, motion-sensing, target-tracking mounts. A hail of anything coming at me is going to give me pause, and if it hurts and goes splat, obscuring my vision and impeding my motion, I'm at a serious disadvantage. If you throw in some frozen balls, or it's cold enough out, then you're hurling .50 caliber solid chunks of pain instead of colorful pigment.

Just some thoughts. The last one is a little out there, but should be particularly useful against unauthorized vehicles, since if they can't see out, they can't maneuver.
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Offline Demonfish Prepper

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Re: BULLET PROOFING HOUSE, BOL
« Reply #45 on: August 22, 2012, 01:36:05 PM »
Not sure of the point of a bulletproof home. Anyone who has a gun and wants to kill you will just patiently wait for you to leave.
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Offline Cool Blue

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Re: BULLET PROOFING HOUSE, BOL
« Reply #46 on: August 22, 2012, 01:58:15 PM »
Not sure of the point of a bulletproof home. Anyone who has a gun and wants to kill you will just patiently wait for you to leave.

The point is to stop bullets from entering.  Kinda obvious I thought lol

It would be good for stray bullets say from a hunter.  It would also be handy in self-defence if you held back from firing out of fear of bullets passing through the walls.

Any body firing at your home though wouldn't be able to tell if it was bulletproof.  A few wasted shots at a bulletproof wall would alert yourself and others in the area that something was up.

It would even have secondary advantages like in tornadoes or if somebody accidentally tries driving through your living room.

I guess it comes down to what advantage non-bullet proof walls have over bullet proof ones.  Personally, if I had the choice I'd go bulletproof.
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Offline M1AShooter

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Re: BULLET PROOFING HOUSE, BOL
« Reply #47 on: August 22, 2012, 03:06:08 PM »
First of all you have to consider why do you need a bullet proof house? do you live close to a shooting range? are you preparing for an assault of some kind? have you had drive by shooting events? If your environment is that hostile you need to move but if you just want some peace of mind for such events, the cheapest method that comes to mind is building your house using pre stressed concrete and installing hurricane shutters made out of steel plate. Having good perimeter walls will boost your defensive posture but experience has taught me that there is no static position that cannot be overrun by really determined attackers. Another thing to consider like one of the earlier posts mentioned is to just wait you out. Especially If your homestead is in an isolated area, a patient sniper will eventually get you.

Offline Docwatmo

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Re: BULLET PROOFING HOUSE, BOL
« Reply #48 on: August 22, 2012, 03:31:16 PM »
I think it's more of a probability thing,  which is more likely to occur, someone planning premeditated murder, waiting you out for days on end to snipe you, or a thief or bunch of thugs breaking into your house to steal stuff and you having to confront them and they happen to be armed?  I think the later would be the more likly scenario anyone would have to face.   It would be nice to have a couple pieces protective furniture or at least a couple known solid walls that you can use for cover that you know are protective but they wouldn't. 

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Offline Cool Blue

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Re: BULLET PROOFING HOUSE, BOL
« Reply #49 on: August 22, 2012, 06:11:48 PM »
Occasionally around here you hear stories of bullets randomly entering somebody home from either hunters or criminals.

My point is that if you have the option of having a bulletproof/tornado proof home, why wouldn't
you opt for that?  If I were building for example Id probably used ICF blocks which would offer these benefits plus have great insulation for only about 5% higher cost.
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Offline Docwatmo

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Re: BULLET PROOFING HOUSE, BOL
« Reply #50 on: August 22, 2012, 06:56:32 PM »
Totally agree on that one cool blue. 
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Offline TexasGirl

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Re: BULLET PROOFING HOUSE, BOL
« Reply #51 on: August 22, 2012, 08:45:33 PM »
I can't believe nobody asked for my input yet.

I am, after all, Tony Stark.

I'll address a couple of points I skimmed, and see what you guys can throw at the revisions and see if they hold up.

First - 1/4" steel plate behind the drywall around and under doors/windows. Unobtrusive, and adds thermal mass, so might not be a bad idea anyway. (addresses "house worth living in" being bulletproof)

Second - I'm sure an ingenious soul could rig this up, as I'm about to try once I have some debt paid down - for moltov cocktails and the like, a metal roof would itself be rather impervious, but the fuel would tend to run down into the gutters, and set the wood substructure on fire. I have all the parts in a bucket to put a roof sprayer system together, that's actually intended to lower my cooling requirements in the summer - it'll run off my rain barrels. (yes i've thought of fuel cycling through the system... it's got a bottom pickup on the last barrel in series) This would tend to drive the fuel down the roof and into the gutters, assuming you could trigger it at will - which I'll be able to do. From there, a CO2 bottle commonly used for portable "air" nailers (or a couple of them) could easily be rigged to blow gas through a small diameter pipe, perforated every couple of inches, glued to the upper inside edge of the gutter - this would keep the holes free of leaf gunk, and would flood the gutter with carbon dioxide. I'd have the end of the tube directed down the downspout, so as to flood the downspout and first barrel with CO2 as well. You'd need an appropriate pressure regulator as well, but this should certainly extinguish a single cocktail thrown on a metal roof, especially if your fascia is clad in metal, and the gutters are mounted high on the fascia. The flood of water would also cool the metal, keeping the wood beneath it from charring and catching fire.

Third - A similar arrangement to above, but an additional pipe can be mounted through the side wall of the downspouts, routed up into the gutter and down a ways, and a chemical foam fire extinguisher could easily be stuffed into the end of the pipe and triggered, filling the gutters with the foam.

The only situation I don't see being handled is a cocktail onto a deck/porch or one thrown high against a wall, involving the soffit below the gutters. This would likely require its own dedicated sprayers, since the soffit vents provide direct access to attic spaces and roof joists/trusses.


Fourth - keep 'em away from the house to begin with. I like the living fence concept, but nothing says you love 'em like automated point-defense turrets firing even something as non-lethal as paintballs. Those air/CO2 powered devices can launch hundreds of rounds per minute, and there are even kits online for building your own automated, motion-sensing, target-tracking mounts. A hail of anything coming at me is going to give me pause, and if it hurts and goes splat, obscuring my vision and impeding my motion, I'm at a serious disadvantage. If you throw in some frozen balls, or it's cold enough out, then you're hurling .50 caliber solid chunks of pain instead of colorful pigment.

Just some thoughts. The last one is a little out there, but should be particularly useful against unauthorized vehicles, since if they can't see out, they can't maneuver.

I haven't a clue who Tony Stark is, that went totally over my head. 

Okay, as a backwoods country girl (with absolutely no military experience) I'm scratching my head on this one.  Well, if you're dealing with those green-faced slime-ridden mutant zombies, what's to keep one from spraying the tin roof with a little machine gun fire (hey, it's in the movie) before lobbing that cocktail on the roof?  I'd think the flaming liquid would drip inside and burn things up?

And what keeps them from just firing a couple of magnesium/phosphorus signal flares on that outside deck, even from a distance?  Aren't those a bit hard to put out even with water?

All green-faced slime-ridden mutant zombies have these things, you know.

~TG

*back to the real world*
 

Offline endurance

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Re: BULLET PROOFING HOUSE, BOL
« Reply #52 on: August 23, 2012, 10:34:39 AM »
There's also the matter that a 30-06 will penetrate 1/4" plate steel and one 4x8' sheet is $242.80 and weighs 330 pounds.  Not really a weekend warrior project.

I think about the best most folks could do is build a safe-room.  I'd love to create a large vault where I could cache my most valuable possessions safely from theft and fire.  In a real SHTF it would make a good place to protect loved one's, too, although in a wildland fire, I have no intention of being anywhere near my home.
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Offline Cool Blue

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Re: BULLET PROOFING HOUSE, BOL
« Reply #53 on: August 23, 2012, 10:53:53 AM »
Endurance,

How you you think a 30-06 would do against ICF blocks that have 6-8 inches of solid concrete?
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Offline endurance

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Re: BULLET PROOFING HOUSE, BOL
« Reply #54 on: August 23, 2012, 11:14:44 AM »
Endurance,

How you you think a 30-06 would do against ICF blocks that have 6-8 inches of solid concrete?
My understanding is that 8" is the recommended (a source).  My concern with ICF is the styrofoam holes that hold the forms together.  While they make up a small percentage of the overall surface area, a high volume of fire or someone specifically targeting the holes from a close range increases the odds of a round making it inside.  Don't get me wrong, I think it beats the hell out of traditional construction in many ways, but for creating a bunker, it has some vulnerabilities. 

I don't think it solves my fire concern, either, although I haven't researched it.  I just assume at typical forest fire temperatures (700-1700F) you're going to experience a breakdown of the materials.  For that matter, even concrete is damaged by super high heat, which is why a friend of mine in construction recommended I go with a two wall system, with a thinner outer wall, a 2-6" layer of sand, and a structural inner wall.  Of course that jacks up the cost substantially, not to mention the total area of the space.  I'm on a cinder block budget with TEOTWAWKI  taste. ;)  I have one area where we'd like to add another room in our basement that has three walls built, including an exterior wall with a garden-view window that seems ideal, but getting a ceiling on the thing that is fireproof (not fire resistant) is the problem.  I constantly go back and forth on whether to just build the one side with filled cinderblock and do the roof in 2-3 layers of 5/8" gypsum, which I'm not sure would work, but I could afford it today vs. doing something with concrete, but maybe never finishing the project before I need it.
"There are things that you don't question when your home always smells like baking bread."  From The Hunger Games

“No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare.”   James Madison

Offline endurance

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Re: BULLET PROOFING HOUSE, BOL
« Reply #55 on: August 23, 2012, 11:17:49 AM »
Following the link on my last post, found another interesting source for information: http://www.ncma.org/resources/design/Technical%20FAQ/BulletBalistic%20Resistance.aspx
"There are things that you don't question when your home always smells like baking bread."  From The Hunger Games

“No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare.”   James Madison

Offline Cool Blue

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Re: BULLET PROOFING HOUSE, BOL
« Reply #56 on: August 23, 2012, 11:20:22 AM »
supposedly fires inside ICF buildings burn hotter because of the high insulation.  The building becomes and oven.
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Offline endurance

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Re: BULLET PROOFING HOUSE, BOL
« Reply #57 on: August 23, 2012, 11:22:30 AM »
supposedly fires inside ICF buildings burn hotter because of the high insulation.  The building becomes and oven.
Good to know!
"There are things that you don't question when your home always smells like baking bread."  From The Hunger Games

“No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare.”   James Madison